Royal Encounters and Cultural Legacy

Hello there, it's me Louis Thoux, Wlcome to my podcast. The Louis Thu podcast My guest today is singer songwriter, DJ An, perhaps most iconically, Spice Girl. Melanie Chisholm AKA. Mel C Melanie was of course the high kicking, back flipping, tracksuit wearing, sporty spice making it one fifth of the best selling girl band in history. She was catapulted to stardam with a release of hit single Wannabe in nineteen ninety six, which reached number one thirty seven countries. The spice skulls became a symbol of goal power I don't think they coin the term, but They became synonymous with it and popularized it. Also cool Britannia and General Globe cononquering pop hegemony But the band also faced intense media scrutiny, public backlash, and various internal conflicts, some of which we lightly and gingerly touch upon in the chat Melanie was, I think it's fair to say And in fact, I did say it in our conversation, widely regarded as the best singer of the group. I don't think that's controversial Who knows? And after the Spice Girl's hiatus, she enjoyed a successful solo career, with forays into pop, rock R and B, and more recently, house slash Dance with the release of her latest album Sweat We recorded this conversation in mid April this year at Spotify HQ. She turned up looking amazing youthful preternaturally Whatever that means. I mean, she just looked good. U didid I look good? you're wondering Not for me to say But yes, a quick warning, this conversation contains some strong language, adult themes and discussion around eating disorders, all that, as well as much else besides coming up There's so many things I want to say to Louis because my daughter's seventeen. and she's a cool kid. She knows all the stuff that's going on out there and she's never impressed by anything I ever do. It's all a bit cringe. But you have managed to stay relevant. Thank you. Because she was very impressed. I was speaking to you today. Very pleased to hear. Yeah. clinging on. so much to get into. I'm a little older than you. But I bet it's not much though. How old I? I was born in seventy seventy four. So you got a few years on me I' have the same cultural references, I'm sure. And I was thinking about What a phenomenon the Spice Gls were I was living in New York when Wannaby came out. It was pointed out to me that It was thirty years ago, almost to the day. Wanabe dropped? Is that possible Yeah, I think it came out July. Gosh. I know in July ninety six. It like came out in ' ninety six, or yes, this summer is thirty years since wan to be dpped. I mean, the spice Girls went on to become a phenomenon There's much that could be said about that But one of the most remarkable aspects of the whole journey was that launch, that moment of launch. Ething that Epitomize the S spice skkulls was encapsulated in the video and in the song. infectiously catchy, naughty Pe Disruptive Chic. Chaotic. Annoying. The Metro's John O'Brien said, From its lyrical themes of female solidarity to its insanely catchy pop hooks and mischief making promo the worldwide chot topper, it was number one in how many countries? I think it was about thirty seven. thirty seven. Yeah encapsulated everything that made the group so spellbinding in the space of just two minutes and fifty two seconds Someone else said, it's hard to imagine any other pop act managing to make this much of an impact so quickly and effortlessly ever again It was all of those things. And what is so brilliant about it? was our collaborators on that particular song, Madam Biff, who we went on to have ser role of Biff Stannard. Yes. I don't know Biff I feel like I know him. He's co written with you a lot. I work with him. Every album I'm working on, I will do some sessions with him. Ripard worked with E' seventeen a lot. He did He did and The way we met Richard, V Stannard, we did a showcase at a place called Nomas Studios, which was in Shepherd's Burh. This is another legendary moment Yeah in the sort of spice story. This is late ninety five, I think. I think you're right. Yes So we'd been auditioned in ' ninety four And we to start at the beginning? Should we start at the beginning? It's a very good place to start. So yes, so I went to performing arts college in nineteen ninety. I was sixteen. I grew up in a place called Woodness, which is, I would say, right in between Liverpool and Manchester. All of my family from Liverpool. And moving from the Northwest, a very working class background Not much money to spare So I was lucky in the fact I could qualify for a grant which I won and that enabled me to go to a performing arts collllege in Kent, sit up in Kent and I was there for three years, completed my course, was going out doing auditions, but always had this longing to work in the music industry. And then one day I'm handed this flyer for a girl band. and The advert said wanted, A you eighteen to twenty three with the ability to sing, slash dance? Are you streetwise, outgoing, ambitious and dedicated They were putting together what they described as a singing, dancing, all female pop act for a recording deal. And so you went along to the audition Remember what you' saying So I sang I'm so excited by the Pointer Sisters. And the reason I sang that was because my momum's also a singer. And this is, let's you remember, this is back in the day. we didn't have you know any technology and we needed sheet music. and I didn't have any sheet music, but I knew my mum had some. so she actually posted it to me in London. But yeah, that was one of the songs I knew it was in the right key for me. so that was a song that I sang. She couldn't have attached it as a PDF. We had emails, but we didn't really do that Did you have emails ninet ninety four? Did you not No No. I think I maybe did I have a pager at that point I think, yeah, that was my means of communication with people It's like talking about carrier pigeons. You know what I mean? And Bathhing in front of the fire are no cars. It's like a horse drawn carriage downtown. It's like Dick Whittington. Crazy So it's actually part of legend really that and became part of your creation method. Having placed the ad, Chris Herbert And Bob Herbert assemble the fabulous fiveive, right? The fiveive of you. He said that he was influenced partly by friends. Do you know that? Not the Friends, the TV show. Okay. I haven't heard that before. Yeah, where he was like, o, there's everyone likek someone on Friends. you like Monica or you like Phoebe, or you like Joe. And he wanted to do a sort of music version. Of course in the background was takeake that. Yeah. that boy bands had become a big thing. Drawing their inspiration from America, new kids on the block There were also American RMB, Girl Groups, SWV, N Vogue. TLC TLC. So all of these influences, Nevertheless, there wasn't a really h I mean, Eternal were making music, but not in the mainstream pop space quite so much Well, when we got there, the first thing we did at the audition was we just had to dance It was, you know freestyle to a piece of music and it was eternal stay. And I was a big fan of the band at the time as were great songs I mean, they were the British Girlband. they were the ones were doing it at the time. At times. But nevertheless. You would bring something different to the table before you. And you know it is incredible because there were a few lineup changes. I wasn't in the original five. When I first met the girls, it was Jerry, Melby, Victoria, and Michelle And there was a girl, I think she was called Melanie as well. An one before me. It was another three Melanie. Yeah We were all born in the seventies, it was a very popular name And she'd gone and I stepped in and then yeah, Michelle was like The other four of us were so single minded and determined this is what we wanted to do and we wanted to make it happen But she was like, H, shouldhould I go to uni? I'm not sure. So that that wouldn't cut it for us. And yeah, and who knows, you know how it would have all turned out. But I always say When we were introduced to Emma Everything fell into place Emma Bnton. Yes,ab. Baby spice, our baby I didn't finish what I was saying about Wannabe, because we've backtracked a little with M and Beth They wanted to capture this energy, this chaos that was the spice gales. Matt and Biff Biff Stan up. We've done that. We introded with it they're on the stage. We've introduced themes. but just to remind listeners They turned up for your showcase in Shepherd's Bush. at a quite I would say low eb or it was a moment when you weren't sure things were moving quickly enough, right? You' still with your original management. you're like, when's it going gonna to happen? Come on? Yes. The reason we had that showcase is because we were like really ambitious. we were, you know, we were naive. We admit that. But we just knew we had something really special. We hadn't written any music at this point. We were singing songs that They'd had written by a lot of middle aged men, the songs were shit. You know, we didn't even like the songs, but we just knew we had this energy. there's this dynamic between us, which still exists to this day. You know, none of us are like musicians, you know, none of us play really, but we weren't like a band in that sense. You know, we could all sing, you know, we're not the greatest singers in the world peopleeople have got their opinions on that, but we could all sing, we could all dance again, not the greatest dancers in the world, but we were all performers and we were all just this belief and this longing, you know, we wanted to be on stage, we wanted to be famous, you know we wanted to travel the world, we wanted to sign autographs, all those things. as a young person, we'd all grown up having this fantasy And so we'd found our people. We people meaning each other. Yeah little tribe. Were you living together at this point? We were. That was a Chris Herbert thing, I think, because later on he created and manurnaged fiveives. Yeah. And he put them in a house together Um what do you think that did It was really important that time. You don't know someone until you live with them Right? That's when you really see them water and all, isn't it? And it just got us to really know each other, really understand each other. And I think is a band it's really important because when the schedule gets hectic and you're traveling around the world, you're away from your family, you become each other's family. So you need to be able to be in very close quarters. So that I think that's a bit of a genius move really. and it was so fun, you know, as young people, it's great He was smart about filming stuff too. He filmed a lot of behind the scenes content of you at the house And it still crackles with life and disinhibition and feelings of real realness, friendship arguments. I saw a very relatable sense of it, not just being business confection that You know, notwithstanding that you were put together by a manager quickly catalyzed into the real thing, right? Real friendships Yeah, real feuds, real fallings out the whole bit So you were saying, so then you do your showcase Well, we'd pushed him to do the showcase because it was moving too slow and we were like, you know we want to deal. we want to st, we want to get there. And he was saying, just hold up a minute, you know, don't run before you can walk. So we'd already decided we were gonna to jumpship Really? Sail on the managers. Yeah. You weren't on contract. notothing they can do about it. But get them because we had no contacts in the music industry. you know, we didn't have a clue So we got this showcase, we got them to pay for the showcase and organise everything and get the people down, knowing we wanted to make the contact and then on your hook. Be we knew we had something great, but that was confirmed for us when we saw these industry people go the minute Yeah' something here. and that's when we I don't know how we did it But somehow, maybe Jerry's like so smart at these things, but we got names, we got numbers, we chased up these people. I remember being in, so Jerry had a little fato. No, that was like our little spice moobile and it was battered. She'd had so many little knocks in it. And we were sitting outside BMG and she going up to see Mark Fox. BMG the label ord Yeah, he was at publishing, but I think it was all in the same building at the time. So me and Mo were in the car, there's other stories maybe will not divulge on the podcast. It Mely always needs a wee, I'll leave it there. And Jerry went up to speak to Mark and from that moment he took us under his wing and I'm sure and I know he probably would have liked to have been part of the management. But he was very gracious, introduced us to lots of management, to a lot of the songwriters that were in the rooms and we were kind of Trying to find our way to salmon fuller. That was the plan Were you called the spice girls at this point? We were called sppice. Spice. Before that you'd been called Touch Sose idea was spice? Spice was a Jerry idea and me and Jerry were down at the gym as we do often in the evenings after rehearsing. and it just came to her. She was like, we're all different, like spices. know We have the flavours. Flavourors plus five letters as well in the word, which helps. I mean, everything about the sort of well, I'm trying not to call it packaging because that sounds like you're A product a product. but we kind of work. It's a funny thing the sppice Girls because you know obviously I've been talking about it for thirty years, but so many people still refer to it as a manufactured band. And of course, in many ways it was, but the material that was being manufactured was really organic and authentic. That's maybe the secret that people miss You know, theyre like, what is it? What is it that makes this vice girl so successful? The longevity of it, the legacy is because it was real And it was marketed beautifully. Yeah Yeah Who came up with the names? It was Peter Lorraine, who was the editor of Top of the Pops magazine at the time, now a very successful music manager. We were at lunch. This is all being reminded to me when I was doing research for the book because a lot of this is like gone lost in the midst of Your brain. Yes. I mean we did so much in such a short space of time. It's really nice to see the other girls because we fill in the gaps for each other. C I just pivot on that for a second because I made a couple of them Documentaries not as a presenter but as an executive producer, O about boy bands, called boy bands Forever, one about girl bands called girlands forever And it was really striking how For a lot of the people involved They're talking about a time in their life of such intensity when they were in their late teens, early twenties. It's almost like talking to war vets who've been in a war and It might have taken place over the course of two years, like in the case of the Heyday of the Spice Girls Fromanabe in ninety six to Jerry leaving in ' ninety eight was less than two years. I Nothing And then for the next twenty or thirty years These veterans of Boy and Girl bands are kind of figuring it out and thinking about what it meant and how in control was I? And was I exploited or was I exploiting? and who am I angry at Do resonate with you It absolutely does. and I know I have this period of time, which I call integrating into society or integrating back into society because When you, if you're lucky enough to have that kind of success, Your feet don't touch the ground You're traveling across the globe, working you sometimes seven days a week without a break. You're young, you're resilient, you can do it. but you are in fight off lightight, living on adrenaline So when Jerry left, that was obviously a really difficult time for scales. We were two shows shy of finishing the European leg of the tour, Then we were going to America for three months. This was your first tour as it was.. Be you had you'd achieved all that success on the back of PAs and releasing music and videos but not live events.ouring. We've done two shows in Istanbul. We've done a collaboration with Pepsi, and this was the thing what frustrated me as a pop star. I always wanted to perform. That is what drives me When you become successful as vxsar, you spend most of your life Do doing all the other shit. you know, there's not much live performing that goes on. It was very much promo, promo, promo promo, you know. Product deals, adverts, And it's like, when do we get to do the day job? you know? So that was frustrating. But the first time we did it was on this huge stage in Istanbul. So it's terrifying. So we had two nights in Istanbul. and then, yeah, nineteen ninety eight, we went out on the worldorld tour. So we were managed by Simon, we left him before the tour started But his thing was always two albums under your belt before you hit the road because obviously you need enough material to do a headline show U in the book you talk about you've written a book about your experiences. It came out a year or two ago, I think whoo I am But Your account of Jerry Laving in the book talks about you were making a video in the Mojave desert for Oh, okay, so sayay you'll be there was the second video And yeah, and we shot that in the Mojave Dert. Probably the song that people went Ah Okay, there's more to them than one of it. It was a very important song. So what you've talked about is that there was a fallout over who had more screen time in the video. Oh yeah, I remember that. Well, it makes me laugh now and we do actually laugh about these things because Back in the day, you know we were young, we wanted equality. We spoke about equality quite a lot But there was, yeah, a little bit of preference over certain girls and you know, we weren't happy about that. We were There was no lead toing gir.pell it out No You don't have to. No. peopleeople can read the book. Yeah ye. In't figure it out. becausea then I looked at the video and I was like, Well, I can't tell Who's getting more screen time? But it's very equal. It's very equal now. I think the first cut. The director had taken a shine to a particular member of the group. So they were very heavily featured. But that led to an argument which led to Jerry leaving. Yeah, and you know there's always more going on. Young girls, there's so much going on and get five of them together and there's going to be clashes, you know, we were big We're all big personalities in different ways. The narrative is generally that Mel B, Scary spice and Jerry Ginger spies with the two big personalities Yeah Um, then you go Victoria, Poshpice and Baby Spice, Emma sort of I guess, you know, not as vocal and then you're the peacemaker. That was the phrase. Yeah Yeah, it's true Okay, so get into the inner workings of the band like any group of people This is a dynamic And what was difficult for us was that Melanie and Jerry were really great mates, but if they had a fallout, it would affect everybody. I think because they were both so outspoken and, you know, Myself, Emma and Victoria didn't You know, I didn't I don't know, we didn't have as much airtime as the two girls. I don't mean that in anything you sense. I mean like just in in the room So that would cause issues sometimes. But I think Jerry saw herself as a p of a co manager I think if it wasn't for Jerry and Melanie being the way that they are, we wouldn't have been as successful as we were You know, Jerry is an incredible person to push things forward. You know, She's really smart, she's very creative And you know, she's a little bit older. She's a couple of years older than me and she'd had some professional success because she'd been a TV presenter in Turkey. She definitely done more work. Melanie had worked as well as a dancer more than the rest of us. So they had a bit more world experience as well. They were the leaders. They were and to have two leaders is you know, it's hard. But Jerry definitely has that kind of in some senses you know, we feel like it's Jerry's band you know, she often I think maybe because she was the older one. she was a little bit more maternal as well. So yeah, so sometimes that could be tricky Especially when you're all becoming successful you all have a profile in the public eye. So yeah, I think any band can kind of be a little bit shook by that But we were really good in a sense at self policing it was tough sometimes because we were really hard on each other, not hard on each other in a mean way, but just like if someone' acting off a little bit, we'd just pull them back into the fld. And you know, at the time, you probably thought fook's sake. Chilly It saved us in the long term. We are very proud that we remained friends. We've had our ups and downs, but no one's gone completely off the rails at any point, really? Off the rails meaning Off the reservation. Do you mean like off the rails implies like mental health emergcy? You mean that or do you mean no one's completely left The womb. I mean, you know Victoria is obviously the furthest with in her own lane in a sense, right? given that she wasn't part of the last tour? I think yeah, and also she's the one who has gone, like you say, the furthest in career terms. She's gone in a completely different world. You know, it's funny, we've kind of I've not seen Melanie for a while actually since last summer But the other four of us we were at Emma's birthday earlier this year and it was kind of The most relaxed we've been in each other' company for a long time. and I think there's something about turning fifty is, you know, you become sel reflective. Don't you and really start to appreciate people in a different way. Yeah,' a big it's a big. Yeah It's a big one. Milestone is the term. Are the Spice girls still together? That's what I was trying to figure out. We've never split up. That's what I'm saying ye Yeah. Jerry left. I would like to say she's back now, obviously since we did the talk. Jry's twenty nineteen. But has Victoria left No one's left I love it. When people like do when I'm doing shows and stuff and if people want to introduce me when they say for a spice girl, I'm really offended. Because onces a spice girl always a spice girl, I think we all feel like that. There might be times we choose not to work in that arena, but we're still spice g. Is it like the Rolling Stones where I think they You know, get together for board meetings, right? Do you have kind of a summit at a regular interval? We don't have them often enough because it's still a business. you know, there are still things we have to take care of, you know. We have our trademark and we have lots of great merch out there. of course. this year is a big anniversary. and you know you couldn't do anything for the anniversary? We want to. everything in discussion. But it's a really positive time for us. you know, there be the five of you do you think U Well, it depends where it is Maybe a Weembley That wouldd be nice, wouldn't it? Right. Yeah We'll see. There's nothing in the works, so it's obviously not going to be anything in time for the anniversary, but we are discussing lots of great opportunities. And it's just because it's so precious to us ' hard to agree. and what everyone feels is the right thing, what they're comfortable with, how we want to approach it. So that's what the constant conversation is about Did you have rules about who would stand in the middle No, actually. withith choreography, we'd swap and like even when you look at the songs. So we really tried to play to each other's strengths And we always knew, you know, if you're familiar with a lot ofpice Girls music, I would often sing them inate. Emma would often sing verses. There was just like a natural when we were writing songs with people, we'd kind of know who would work best in that area. You know We had a few fallouts sometimes because someone was being overlooked a little bit. We tried to keep it equal And you know, I know there are lots of bands that have different setups, but even like with publishing and everything we ever did, we split everything equally because another you know, I praise Simon for that, because that's the only way to keep a I gave you that advice. Yeah Yeah, you have to be equals in the business, right It's generally acknowledged that you had the best voice I think that's down to personal taste, isn't it? It's said a lot And of course, it's a compliment, so thank you, Thankk you people. Sometimes I say I was just the show off, I used to do the h bits at the end and everyone can sing, you know, obviously there's there was different levels. of ability But there's no one who cannot sink Everybody brings something you are the best according to you and lots of other people No, It depends on what you like. I' just be mischievous, but people did say you were the best and you were U I'm possibly over researched. like I always like to be prepared. So I've read your book. I've listened to your music, I've gone back and I watched Spice World, which I'd never seen before. Really didid you enjoy it? I really enjoyed it. Did you? Yeah. I love that It's like a panto. It's like a Christmas panto. skketches broad comedy, cameo after cameo Roger Moore Richard E. Grant, Michael Barrrymore Gary Glitter, he's been cut out of it Did you know you was there? Wellile the movie was getting edited, you were like, o shit, you wantan to go. There's a scene where you say wantan to be in my gang Which is a banger. The devil is the man for the music. Yeah. Yeah, well it was again before we knew That shit. But you can find that one. he's amazing. You can find the outtakes. Why would you want to? with Gary Glitter on youu Yeah Wow, I never knew that. Speaking to someone who made documentary Jimmy Sevvel, for those who don't know Gitter was unmasked as a paedophile Um, And it was a reminder watching the outtics that, Oh, We thought he was harmless partly because he was already sending himself up. It's like the oh, he's so ridiculous. Yeah He's such a cartoon. He doesn't take himself seriously, therefore he's safe And turned out that was the disguise But it's funny when you're in the presence of those people, you do feel l. Somet something to. Did you feel a little something? Well, I met Jimmy as well. Tim. Yeah, I did one of the breakfast shows, wh it was GM TV, whereatever it was called at the time and now I was on the sofa to him and I was in the lift with him and I did he made me feel very uncomfortable. I think he was even a little bit I mean he was quite old at the time, but I think he was almost a little bit inappropriate on the air You know When you were there? Yeah, yeah. he was just He was say, let's not give many airt time. So Back to the question, Wannabe, the song That wasn't the video. No, because it's important because because it's about Spice World as well This Have you commandeered, You've taken over the controls. Did you not like that? We were talking about the spice world. Yes So Spice World? In which the villain, Barry Humphries, Yes, plays a kind of Rupert Murdoch like Australian news bearer and he's like, I've got to get those spice girls up if it kills me. That's not an exact impression And the main throughline for the film is that there's this antagonist a reporter slash vampire who's coming to try and find dirt on you So The movie It was What was going on You know, obviously a comedic version in the film, but that was really how we were That was our experiences. you know, we'd been out there, we'd been promoting for a year when we sat down and the movie was being written. So a lot of those experiences that are the through line of the movie were the things that we were experiencing Im sure and I'm sure that's Partly why it works Yeah And it was a big hit. It was a big hit and it's not on any streaming services. What's that No? I wanted to watch it and I did watch it, but it was quite a job. You you watch it on VHS I think we found a cheeky did you download somewhere, but it's not available on. It's not available at the moment. It will be because there was a lot of people that owned it. It was kind of all over the place. So we've had to come together. the bicyc has now fully own it, so we are We will be presenting it at some point And hopefully they're not too distant futures for people to enjoy So Just fr the off, likeike I said, you took off like a rocket You conquered not just the UK, but you smashed America Nevertheless, it wasn't to everyone's tastes. This will surprise you. There were some music people industry personnel or artists who didn't like the Sice Girls and felt it incumbent to push back and give statements Wh did you got? Bear with me. Tom York. Gone. Oh, Tom York here, yeah, Radiohead, Yeah.? I can't remember Tom York from Radiohead said you were the Antichrist. Not you personally, but the spice goes collectively. A bit strong, isn't it Im radohead Curely wait for the. If you get answith that', wait for this one I think she's actually kind of spoken about this not maybe recently or kind of Not a good look now. Yeah. she's acknowledged with hindsight. Itounds like a massive overreaction. Okay. In hindsight, you're like o, right. So if you think that about spice girls, what do you think about, you know Hitler? Anon from Garbage said, I want them tarred and feathered. My wish is for the complete and utter destruction Bicills. Liam Gallagh said If he pumped into the spice girls, he said, a genenem. You've gota love the nineties, eh? Funny that that was the level of anger. but think what does that I think that speaks to mainly how big and impregnable you appeared. It was like, No, thats it's conquering everything and someone needs to fight back. Yeah, I think it was more we were probably, you know, everything they hated You know, because of we were the most commercial band probably ever. you know, we had so many sponsorship deals and we, you know, we were making this shiny pop music So yeah, it was just a reaction to them like literally it wasn't their taste. They hated it and it becoming successful. Unavoidable. Yeah, but you that first album sold twenty three million copies. It's the highest selling album by a girl band of all time. That's amazing isn't it And the thing is that willll probably never change now because The industry is not about album sales. There's an meaningless metric now Early on, you had an incident which you talk about at the ninety six Brit Awards where the because you were just now talking about policing each other and there was a moment where You were policed by the bandmates. They felt and it sounds so trivial, you know looked at in the dispassionately, but you've taken your hair out So you no longer had a ponytaail and this was before you even had released any music but you were at the Brits, so you were under scrutiny and your fellow bandmates thought, what are you doing? You're fucking with the look, the look of the band. We've all got certain hair that we have And they um criticized you and you told one of them to fuck off and then The next day they all kind of In your telling, anyway, came on very heavy ort telling you like that was you out alloud, yourour behaviour is disgusting. You know, in the telling, it's like not much of an anecdote, but I mentioned it because you identify as a moment where You clammed up a bit. you no longer felt you were completely able to I went into terror. because I thought I was gonna to lose everything. you know, those dreams as a child, which now What Possibility I might have fucked it ear up. As you thought you might be thrown. And I thought it was very trivial as well because okay, to put some on me on the bones of that evening. So it was the Brit Wwards in nineteen ninety six, so which fall around February time. So we hadn't released anything. Nobody in the public knew us, but in the industry, you know people had started talking. And we were there Santa Virgin records And we were sitting on a table with Lenny Kravitz whichich obviously, you know, we were these young girls. This was an amazing night. We had a great night, we had a few champagne, we really, you know, it was the Brits in the nineties, right? Everyone was having fun Yeah, and we were just leaving and we were like going to find our car and whatever the situation was where I just turned around and said it's Victorial Fuck Unbeknowned to me, go home, go to bed, wake up the next morning And I was in a lot of trouble and it was I was living with Melby at the time. We were living in Watford and Jerry also lived in Watford and they were both there when I got up And yeah, they were just disgusted with my behaviour. That was the word that was used We disgusted Yeah Yeah. And you know You know when you've had a night out and you wake up in the morning and you've got to like be a fear, right? You want what to do last night. I didn't even have that. I just woke up going, o, last night was fun. I had completely brushed off that situation. but obviously it had really affected people in a way I hadn't realized So I was in trouble And then Simon wanted to speak to me and I was told in no uncertain terms if anything ever happen like that again I would Be gone So that yeah, I just completely freaked me out. O because I didn't realize I'd done anything that terribly bad and too, because actions may have led to me losing everything I'd ever wanted, you know? so it affected me you know, He lot Are you A you still in business with Simon Fuller? No S of full is like Dopelganger, not physically, but kind of professionally of Simon Cowell. They're very, very different people. They're very different, but they're put together a lot. They're both vastly wealth su accessible. Yeah, I think they could used to work together Iidol. they' allow over pop idol, I think But Simon Cell is the public one and Simon Full is the private one. Simon Full almost never gives interviews Um Hi Simon if you're watching. Hi, Simon. Apparently Simon, your management style appeared to be divide and rule. Yes. att the time. Yes. He would admit that. Do you think so? Yeah. He would admit that. And the thing is, you know you have to remember, this is a very long time ago. He was, I think only in his thirties, which obviously is an adult. None of this had ever happened to anybody involved The Spice Girls was unprecedented. What was his track record at that point? He managed Annie Lennox, rightight? Which was one of yeah, one of amongst other artists, Paul Harcastle, his business was called nineteen. Because Paul Harcastle's song No no, no no, nineteen. Exactly. So yeah, that kind of set him on the road. I think he started in A and R and then he moved to management And yeah, he was managing lots of various acts. He managed Amy Winehouse for a short period of time. Followed? I think, yeah. then after the Spice Girls, he went on to do S Club seven The Spice Girls was this crazy entity and I think the label, the management, everyone was a bit like, Fuck, what do we do? What do we do with it? And everyone was terrified of us kind of imploding because we were we were so volatile. We just wear that is the spice girls. we love each other, but when there's a fallout, it's catastrophic, you know, So I think everyone was just trying to keep it Go But it was the It was the wrong thing to do What should he have done reported are togetherness and our friendship because When we are on the same page, we're unstoppable That is the only way the Spice Girls works. But sometimes I think and you'll know this, right? historically through music When they arere infiltrated, when an act or an artist is infiltrated from an outside influence, then it goes to shit You know, our power is in our unity always was and it still is But I think that was always his I believe that was his thought process keep them keep them all because he'd tell us like different things to each other and it just caused a little bit of unrest. And yeah, I do believe it was his way of trying to keep control of the beast, but it backfired on him and we left him U you say of that time, I started to consciously make myself smaller confidence began to be stripped away and happened so quickly It is difficult And but you you earlilyer, you know talked about other girl and boy bands and their stories. and it is bizarre because Your life completely changes. It's unrecognizable. and the media at that time brutal, the tabloid media, especially here in the UK. and we were You know, when you're young, you're naive, you don't think about the negatives. I didn't think about the negatives. I was just like, we're making music, we're having fun. everybody's gonna love us. And then it was like, o, shit, that's not that's not life. That's not real life So you're dealing with all of these opinions of you that you weren't ready for and before social media. Yeah. And it so before the interternet was the internet. So it's mainly tabloids, is it Can Is it easier to tune that out? At least it's not on your phone, right? Well how are you seeing?, I would disagree, I think because at the time as well, I personally, I was obsessed. I was obsessed with what everyone was saying about me. So I'd go to the gym every morning. The first thing I'd do would go to the newsstand and look in, you, the gossip columns or you know the entertainment, whatever in the newspapers ye. I just checked it out said dner. And the other thing was we were told that anything we ever did will get found out So we were always living in fear. So if we'd ever gone out and had a drunken night or whatever or, you know, met somebody. You were just like, when's it going to be in the paper? Because you knew it was going to come out because we just knew that was just the way it was. Now we know why and how? Go on. But at the time. Now we know why becausecause Oh phones were, you know being been hacked. And I've done the case. I've been through the whole thing. It started in nineteen ninety six It ended in two thousand nine. So Wannabby came out in nineteen ninety six and I had my daughter in two thousand nine. myself and every other person in the public eye in the United Kingdom, was you know, was being listened to throughout that period Do you know who was hacking your phone I think it was a number of people It was more than one publication. the one that I've been to court with is at The Son and News of the World. Yeah What about the mirror? Those proceedings have come to a halt Why I think it's just been too long I was never notified. People were notified by the police and I never got I never got that call So I just left it. and I think as well I Pers Morgan Wh was involved? I wouldn't like to say You're you're jump and I'm going toine. And would you hold it against if it was true of Piers Morgan, let's say, Would you like to be interviewed by him You feel like now I I I've met Pase I'm not a fan. I'd choose to not have an interview with him becausecause of that period I When I was young with the Spice Girls, part of the process of becoming a successful band is speaking to lots and lots of journalists. And at the time, you know in many ways, the tabloids broke us, you know, we did' have you mean in a positive way. Well in both ways. But yeah, they were very important in the time. likeike you say, we didn't have social media. Now, it is a wonderful thing. Well they've lost so much of their power because we do have social media. but I don't need to speak to tabloids. I don't want to It doesn't sell records and you know, I've I've learned my lessons presenting the couounter narrative It would be Well, it was a tango and there was this sort of somewhat symbiotic dimension to it. I learn quite quickly that I'm not comfortable with Aspect of fame you know, this wholell like you belong to the tabloids or you belong to the media you know, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours I want to make music, I want to be on stage, I want to perform. I don't wantan to be in the newspaper. You you know what I mean? It's like, Yeahah, it's going to sell records, it's important. If I'm promoting things, then I realise I have toar the line. to a point, but I'm not, I've never wanted to, you know, fuck me, I'm one of this vice girls, right? O of the most written bands in history. I've never felt the need to exploit myself to that point because I feel like you're dancing with the devil. Right? It's For me, I never felt comfortable with that and I feel really grateful because I've had my issues with the tabloids, but I don't think I've ever given them enough that I owe them. Is was there a um You know, with some of these goldbands boybs there's there's an especially painful moment like Lee from Blue famously said something about nine and eleven right after the planes had gone into the World Trade Center. Do you remember that He said something along the lines of ye, but a lot of whales are being killed as well and no one talks about that. Something like that Which obviously he didn't mean it vindictively, but it was know we all say sometimes. And famously Brian Harvey He says he takes nineteen Es on a fight They shouldn't joke about it. Be serious. C on. you say that kind of yeah. Before cancel culture was a thing. Well, it turns out it was a Ccel culture even then, but they didn't call it that. And he was cancellled for saying onn a night out he likes to take. I don't know what the number was It was more than your recommended What's the recommended day? I like I think one a week is consed. One and a half Maybe a min a week sounds like too much. Once every few months, if you're a pop star The prescription can change varied on your level of success and your tolerances. Did you have a spice girls? this is a really low road question, even as I'm saying but it felt like you didn't have a moment of scandal like that, right? It wasn't as though one of you once said Um, I'm in favor of public execution or something. I mean, Jerry said she liked Margaret that. Yeah, that was the one that sprg to my mind. So obviously again, being young and being thrown to the lions as we were, you know, we didn't have media training, which I mean, I'm sure obviously a lot of people compared saying should compared to saying I like to take nineteen Es in a night Saying you like Margaret That And she said she was the original sppice girl and she had girl power Didn' she say that something like that? She did say that. So we were interviewed by spectator what the actually Spectator magazine, really? I didn't even know what Spectator was. It's a right leaning political magazine. Yeah. So why What the fuck? was that one I think think probably was. But you know, obviously we were five very different individuals with different experiences growing up, predominantly working class. but you know, there's predominantly left leaning, but obviously Margaret Thatcher, she was a, you know even saying the name. kind of fills mo with red She was a, you know, was she the first female prime Mister she primter. She did what she did and, you know, and Jerry applauded that. and her being female And those, you know the girl powerower references were there for that reason I grew up in the north west of England My whole family is from Liverpool, But my dad's side of the family, the men have worked on the docks or they did work on the docks for generations Obviously That was very difficult for me because that was not my opinion. I think that was one of the things that was hard about this sprice girls is that we could get tarred with the same brush. If somebody had an opinion, a political opinion Everyone would think that's what everybody thought and felt. and it wasn't the case. I mean, you peopleople know that now. but being a young girl going back to Liverpool after its like, Oh, this spice girls have said this It's just like say it. I don't think it You did an interview with Oprah. I mean, I've already said this, but ust a reminder that like the spice girls crracked America wide open, which for a UK u girl group or boy group was I want to say if not unprecedented, then Highly unusual and certainly unprecedented in the scale of domination that you kind of achieved. So you're on Oprah and you say that the next day you looked at yourself in a mirror while on the treadmill and you said You've just got to be a robot, no feelings, no excuses, no pain. You're a robot M That was a little mantra that I had. And that kind of you touched on a couple of things like the catalysts that led to that point. So obviously being criticized about My parents That was. Well, the first person, the first like little thing that cut deep was when ake Murphy. The original back financial backer of the band had commented on my thighs when doing a backfip And that hurt and I was like, Oh fuck, okay, I need to lose weight and then really being scrutinized by other people tple of media predominantly, but also by myself, you know You're in photo shoots. your image, you're looking at your image constantly. and I think as well Hot like a lot of guilt my success and I don't know why I kind of didn't feel worthy for it. and I think I talk about this in the book as well.'s like You know, I did grow up in an environment where people work really hard and can have very physical difficult jobs And I was starting to earn money They would never se in a lifetime and you know, I had guilt about that And so I was like, I have to be worthy of this success, I have to be perfect. I have to be the absolute best version of myself And yeah, I became really insular and I was controlling what I was eating I was exercising obsessively. I was really kind of withdrawing from the band as well because I was really embarrassed about it. I knew I had an eating disorder, but I wouldn't acknowledge it. wouldn't I was kind of in denial. There was like a little voice, but I'd quieted that voice constantly. and so that was the thing, you're a robot. I loved And I love being a sppice girl so much and I love performing and this was All of my dreams some trade talking to Oprah Wimfrey, we were performing at Madison Square Garden. We were flying to Tokyo. It was mind blowing and I could not because I nearly did at one point. So just all of these little things like came together and just made me like, you know Very, very guarded It's a lot, isn't it? I interviewed Jade from Little Mix for the podcast and H Her observation was that it gets harder as you get more successful. Like it's when it's almost like on the way up It's a bit more straightforward. and then when you're actually le it's more fun. And when you sort of reach the top of the mountain For some reason. Yeah, pressure responsibilities. Yeah. sense of impending failure, like obsolescence, like how do we like this like we've got to maintain it now How do you How do you maintain that level of success? Yeah Well, it's funny because I kind of just want to reflect on My personal experience of being a spice curirb and at the time I didn't ever really feel like the most popular one You know, I feel like I was I was treated qu they were quite mean to me in the media. There was obviously doing the phone hacking stuff I had to go through All of the articles that were written about me and the narrative around me was, you know, I suffered A my time with the Spice Girls in that sppice many days into my solo career. so it's probably after I toured my first solo record I had a very difficult time. you know, I had a lot of demons I had to face. Where are we talking? So this was millennium Are we talking about your eating disorder? So eating disorder, I was diagnosed with depression. you know, I was suffering with anxiety It was hard to leave the house. It was a really, really dark time So I went over to LA and I did a three month stint there writing and recording of my first cella record. It was the first time I'd stepped away from the band I'd allowed myself to admit had a problem and I had to do something about it. So that was the first time I sought help I was trying to deal with my eating disorders and my addiction to exercise. I was just trying to get some kind of balance in my life but still controlling everything And that worked to a point having someone to cook all of my meals, to have a personal trainer. So I was literally giving other people the responsibility I couldn't have those responsibilities. Did you have a manager at this time? I did. So when we left Samon Fuller I think it was in ' ninety eight We then had a manager Nancy Phillips, who was someone I stayed with for eighteen years. And she was spice schoolirls, but also you individually? Yes. All of us individually for the first record. Obviously Jerry had already gone. left under her watch And then yeah, we all released a solo album. And then I continue individually release solo. Yeah. So all the Spice Girls have released a solo album. Is it weird when you're all thinking like, I wonder how their one is doing. Yeah, it is hard because you know, you want to be supportive, but you also feel competitive so that was all going on, but I was, you know, trying to figure it out for myself And then once I wasn't in that environment when I had all of the things in place from being You know, I was anorexic for sure. I mean, I wasn't starving myself, but I was really restricting my eating and over exercising. I was underweight But then my body just took over and I started binging. sometimes uncontrollably to the point where I would become conscious kind of mid vinge and just think like what am I doing? Yeah, and it was petrifying and I'd always beenight Yeah at night, I'd wake up And I'd just be like, I just want carbs. And I went on to learn that a lot of this are the symptoms of depression. Waking up early hours of the morning, going into the kitchen, like self soothing like with carbs to the point of like, you know being able to sleep again, and of course my appearance was changing And that was my biggest fear because I knew I knew it was going to be commented on, you know, I knew that the tableaus were going to be really, really mean about it And I was so embarrassed and I was so ashamed because I prided myself on my control and on my determination. and I'd created the perfection or as close to the perfection as I could possibly get to be worthy of this pop stardom And then I was losing it, I was losing the grip of this control But it was my body reacting going. I can't continue in this way. You know, I'm so grateful that my body can of save me in a sense. So it was around two thousand when I was like crying constantly struggling to get out of bed. I was still promoting and touring my first album I was becoming more and more uncomfortable, you know, gaining more and more weight And that's when I first went to my GP and that's when he said to me, Well, first of all, we need to address your depression I J just that felt like a weight lifted up like physically a weight lifted up my shoulders because It had a name, you know, I knew it was something I could be helped with and that was the start on the road to recovery. I mean, sometimes depression comes from nowhere, right? It's just like catching any other disease and sometimes it's related to things that you're going through. Yes. You had gone through this extraordinary passage of your life, right? Yeah in which been in control, but out of control. enormous success, but enormous pressure. It's hard to believe that didn't have some role in what you were going through, right? Yeah. You know, I think all of us, spice girls, have had things we've had to deal with because it's not normal It's not even people now when I'm working with them, they're like, yourour life's just not normal. justust the way you work, you know, the expectation of a performer, you get up on stage in front of tens of thousands of people and then you go home and empty the dishwasher and it's a massive headfuck. you know, But that's life and I've kind of I have more of a handle on it now because I've done it for such a long time. But then it was the extreme. becausecause it was Spice Girl's fame and then being on my own And I think a lot of the control issues were because my life was in the hands of other people. So it was the only things I could control was my appearance, what I ate, how much I exercised. And also my gym was like my hideaway. because I hate confrontation. and you know, there was times in the band where it was very confrontational People had different personalities in that respect So if I was in the gym, I got left alone So I would spend more and more time in the gym. It was my safe place And yeah, and this is where I talk about the reintegration into society Because those spiceers like ninety six to ninety eight We hardly were in public, you know, we were in a bubble We had security, you're on a plane, you're on a private jet. You know, you're on stage, you're not living like a normal human being. You had a flat infinchually, did you? I did. But you probably weren't there that much. Not really. We were able to date? That's another hot topic, isn't it? I would have liked to have dated. had a dry spell That's what we call it. Oh no, I think it was in the band because Robbie talks about how Nigel Martin Smith, the take that Robby Williams of take that. talks lot about Nigel Mart Smith sort of policed their he didn't want girlfriends. That's Nigel denies that, but Robbie says that Nigel stopped them from giv any action. Yeah at least I think he's made up for it, don't you? I didn't realize you'd had a thing with Robby I mean, it was a million years ago and lasted two seconds. Oh God, that sounds really bad. Ohh well. It was a mess, I was a mess. It broke my heart That was your quote. Yeah Jay from five. Yeah, lovely Jay. He I've not spoken to him for a while actually, but he's an ex I've remain friends with. I don't remain friends with many exes, but he's a lovely boy. And I saw Robby recently I mean We were kids, you know what I mean? It's like we're talking like you know, twenty odd years ago nearly thirty years ago it's a long time. But no, but I think a lot of management they did that, you know, you weren't allowed to come out if you're in a boy band Probably or ao band. because you had to remain available to the fans. That was the thing, wasn't it? Did you have boys outside the hotels? Completely different. Yeah. We didn't have, I mean, don't get me wrong. other people had a better success rate than I did. but it wasn't that kind of, you know, like historically with like boy bands or rock bands, it's like, oh, you know, pick a out back. Yeah. We've got a special guy and he picks the outount says, do you wantan to meet your band Yeah, our gigs weren't like that. No They were full of young girls and gays. which are the best audience. You just don't get any action But you know, that wasn't you know it was quite lonely for me at times. I think there was many times in the band when we were working together where I was the only one without a partner So yeah, that's been quite a big theme of my adult life really. It was a long time before I was in a long term relationship So was that part of what to the depression, I guess that's where we were going. Yeah, I think it was very environmental. It was the experiences that I'd had and yeah, just get to that point where I couldn't continue living the way I was living and And that was a really long road back to health. And I never really stopped. It was a different time as well because I probably I think I would have benefited to go off and have some time to heal, but was still I was touring and promoting and your solo stuff. Yeah. I mean, ye ye, yeah. Let's talk about your solo music. Yeah. One of the pleasures prerepping this interviewer was realizing how good it is And also that the recent stuff's really strong. Thank you. I think you've sort of found your mode, especially with like the last album and then this new material. I haven't heard all the new album. It's called Sweat But that kind of, I mean, how would you describe the music Well, I started DJing about eight years ago And I play house music, like multi genre house, but as an artist, obviously I'm a pop artist. but I wanted to bring those worlds closer together and also It's just brought so much joy to my life being out there DJing as well as singing live I wanted to reflect that in the music. so I've just had loads of fun and try to make and you're right. I feel like Is there a genre, or put a label on it? Well, it's electronic pop I suppose With a bit of disco. A B bit of disco in there. definitely. It feels like the single What's the single c? So we've got sweat. sweat where it's taking a bit of Diana Ross Yes. And some Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yes. So so I in that. Okay, so let's whenever I make music, it's a reflection of what's been going on in my life over the period of time that I'm making the record, right And this is interesting this album because I was fresh from a long term relationship breaking up. so I was in like there You know, that Untangling of all the things, the bitterness, the an Yeah No, no, no no, that's that was that was That was twenty twelve. Yeahah, that was way back so this was the one after that And that was all falling apart, untangling, getting nasty, bitterness Great inspiration for music. How do you know when a relationship's not working I think when you're not happy anymore when The icks are too big to ignore It's are part of a long term relationship. No, just, you know, just getting to the point where you just think, this is too much like hard work. You know, there's no joy here and you said that is reflected in the music, but then I met somebody new and I fell in love and I life. So I had this beautiful breadth of human emotion, right that I was able to draw upon And so I had this great body of work working with incredible songwriters, producers. I really knew what I wanted to achieve, really have such a good dance feel and pulling from different genres of dance as well, you know, because I know I can't go like super specialist in any direction. I'm a pop artist. I write pop songs, but it's just having those flavours and making it feel more like the music I want to play and dance do in a club. so sweat just to Finally, answer your question about Arnie It was a moment I was really happy with the work I had for the record And I wanted to have some fun. I've been working on a playlist, a fitness playlist and that reach two, three, four, five, six seven n. Dan Ross, work that by. great by the way. Thank you I was really eager to get that into a tune. I thought I want to make like a fitness banger. I want to have loads of fun. So I was looking at all these intos through my life. as a kid I grew up on The kids from Fame, Flash dance. I was thinking about Olivia Newton John, Let's get physical. And so we had this hook from the Dana Rus track And looking at all these intpos and I just remembered I was on this fitness camp once and they played so Arnold Schwarzenegger around the pumping Gy in time, he made these albums where it's like bangers' like, it's Rining men, but he's literally doing the workout over it like it bise up curls. And so we were looking at that and just having loads of fun And I was like, it's time to bring the fun to this record. And sweat was made and it felt like the perfect introduction to this body of work He did compliment my guns once. Did he? It's one of my claims of fame yeah What was the location? I was at the Royal Alrbert Hall and it was Gorbachev's eightieth birthday celebrations. Wow, what's a double name. We didn't go anywhere near those. If we can you imagine the ridiculous I mean You know, I know you've had some of those moments too, but ridiculous room, she finds herself right, right, right when you're suddenly. I don't think've rubbed shoulders with either Arnie or Gorbachev. Did you meet Gorbachev? I didn't actually. I was asked to perform, I think one of his daughter, his wife, somebody was a big fan. so I was asked to perform at his birthday The Spice Girls encounter with Nelson Mandela obviously is legendary. And you remember what he said He said It was the best day of his life. I'm eating the spice c. It's amazing. I mean almost I don' think he really meant. Almost too much. Yeah. No let's not overd it. Yeah, did you think he mek it? Not freedom of your country or be released from prison. That was such a beautiful moment. Obviously, I mean what an honour to have met the man. Whenever Spice Girls did those things because I think you know people will remember the photographs with Charles when he was prince, you know, the bottom pinch and the lipstick marks and all of those things. and it was will help people the younger crowd might not know Okay, the scene. Well, I think it was about nineteen ninety seven and the Sice Girls were performing at a Prince's Trust concert Have a feeling we're in Manchester and there's always a rooyal lineup at these things. for all of the artists performing on the show And you get given the protocol. like when you meet a member of the royal family, you wait to be spoken to, you wait, you don't take their hand, you wait for them to offer their hand to you with the queen, you used to courtsy, and there's all of this stuff. But obviously being the Spice Girls, we always thought it was very funny to do what we were told not to do. Jerry thought she'd give him a little pat on the bum and kiss him with she'd put so much red lipstick on and you those photographs are iconic. And I would have known that she was going to leave a mark on him. Yeah. It was premeditated for sure, but we were just being rebellious. The thing is with the Spice girls, right? We're so relatable because we were Normal girls from normal backgrounds that did something extraordinary. And we really pride ourselves on that. So when we found ourselves in those situations, other people might not find themselves, we wanted to do what everybody else wanted to do, you know I know they're going to kick this out, but before they do Oh, that's spice Girls in the Rock ' and Roll Hall of Fame. Now N yget. But you would qualify, I think. What you think? Be there's a twenty five year, you have to wait. There's some kind of waiting period. Um, do you you think there's still some sense of sort of industry gatekeeping or whatever you want to call it or a feeling that actually know, that's not purely musics that's more of a cultural movement. There we go. That's a good way of putting it. What do you think? Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I think as time passes, people become more respectful of what we achieved. The music speaks for itself. It's bloody good music. you know, it's great pop music that has stood the test of time And alongside that, it was a cultural movement and it's affected not only a generation of people, it continues to do that And I'm extraordinarily proud to be a part of it and will you know go around talking about it till the end of my days That was a good way of closing out the conversation. Thanks so much Melanie C for coming along. You My pleasure. It was really fun Who would have thought All those years ago when I first saw Wannabe, I'd be one day interviewing a spice girl. There you go And a zig a zig whichich is of course, a quote from Wannaby It's Melby's signignature noise And do you know what it means? I found that out in research in the ch. Do you know what zig zig means I think it's like the noise of Orgasm So you might want to double check that. That's awkward Here's Morguan, oh here we go. this is illegal Aga. That's a legal clax onon. Piers Morgan has vehemently denied ever hacking a phone or any knowledge of phone hacking occurring during his time as editor of the Mirror Nevertheless, in his book he does talk about someone showing him how to hack a phone So Don't say that, Millie says But he has never hacked a phone he's always denied hacking a phone and doesn't how to do it But he did say how to do it in his book He said he didn't know how to do it. He said he was showown how to do it Don't say that. Now, Brian Harvey I've done Brian Harvey a disservice I think I said that he'd said at the height of E seventeen's fame He would take nineteen E's in a night. In fact, he only said that he'd take twelve E's in a night So apologies to Brian Harvey. and on a serious note Uh They threw Brian under the bus Basically. you can learn more about this in boy bands forever if you're in the UK and you want to watch it on iPlayer Brian Harvey the lead singer V seventeen, there's a plausible scenario that suggests Their manager at the time had it in for Brian. and more or less sabotaged him by knowing that he was going to say something self cancelling in an interview and allowing him to do the interview unchaperoneed Gold Bands forever is on iPayer as well Melcy's not in it, alas. There are no spice gos. in Gl bands forever, but we have the All Saintstomic Kitten Eernal and many others What else Check out the new music Genuinely, if you like df punk or it's a shimmering go It's a kind of music. I don't know if this is if you if you're in a club could be a gay club doesn't have to be late at night. mayaybe you are feeling energetic. And It's one or two in the morning And you just want to be wearing like a little vest. A my painting a paint too much And you want't dance like with your fists in the air Um I know you're thinking that's not you, Louis. Maybe it is. That's what I was feeling when I was listening to Melcy's album. What's the album called sweat? The album's called swweat And who doesn't love the idea of Arnold Schwarzenegger being? a musical influence I mean, that's some clickbait right there. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotif I do have a website for information resources Visit spotify. com slash resources That's it for this week, apart from the credits The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Mark Morne The Production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aron Fellows This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify And itig zig