Reflecting on the Minimalism Documentary

Every little thing you think that's need . Every little thing you think that you need every little thing that's just feeding your greed or a bet that you be fine without it ? Yes, I'm a minimalists living a meaningful life with less. Joshua Fields Milburn over here, TK Coleman. Hey over there. It's good to be here. I just got back, man. Boy, are my arms tired. Uh You haven't seen that there's like a Owl Roker like moment where he's like in a he's talking with people and then he just sort of has a moment where he freezes. No, I haven't seen him just like that for like six seconds. So it's become memeable to say you just got Al Roker where you just al cohol meic with that? I'm just like, what ? How rewind? How was the trip to Missoula there? Yeah, we just finished the tour up there. I'll talk about it a bit more on the right here right now segment, coming up later on page one , but it was remarkable. It was a great place to end the tour. I forgot about Montana. I was just talking to Savi Dee about this because he was in Florida this past week and we had radically different experiences, but similar internal experiences. So he's in Florida and it's summertime. You know, Florida and summer's hot and humid and he's out there skating for ten minutes and has to take a break. He's like, oh man, I forgot about this. He grew up in it, but when you leave it and you come back , you're sort of a tourist in your own town . And Nicodemus and I were there and I just forgot two days ago it was hailing on me. It's June right now and I'm talking about heavy hail where I had to go inside and just watch the hail come down. Becks and I were waiting in the storefront for the hail to stop. And then yesterday morning got up early and we had a podcast interview we were getting ready to do. And I go across the street from the hotel and there's a nice coffee shop over there. I go there to get my wife a matcha because she just really enjoys a morning match. I want to surprise her with it and I go over there and I get the matcha and I'm walking back to the hotel and our room is on the second floor. On the second floor there is this terrace and I'm walking across the terrace all confidently. I've got her matcha in one hand and my coffee mug in the other hand . And I'm just walking on the terrace. It's beautiful terrace. It's a relatively new hotel downtown. They just remodeled the mercantile building. And as I'm walking through the terrace there are all these tiles there and I didn't notice that there was frost on them and that frost was thick enough that it was ice . It's June and I just busted ass on ice . I hit one of the tiles and it was like a cartoon . I had matcha in one hand cough in the other and they just go flying up in the air, green fill s the sky in front of me and I had no idea this was about to happen . And so early June and I'm in Montana, and it reminded me of my favorite bumper sicker there . It's a local Missouri bumper sticker, Montana bumper sticker. It says Montana is where you remove your snow tires in May and regret it in June . Oh man. And that's sort of a description of the weather. I know when we first moved out there , we had visited Montana in July and it's paradise. It looks like an Abercrombian Fitchat. It's Bald Eagles and college kids with washboard abs and and it's just like this stunning place, the nature, the mountains, the river . Yeah, it's you see why people go to Montana. And then we move out there on october third, I got there first. I just text Ryan like, What do we get ourselves into? October third was in the middle of a blizzard. And we spent the whole winter writing that book everything that Remains. It's still my favorite thing that we've written. And we were in this cabin in the middle of nowhere, negative twenty six degrees a lot of days. And so Montana is a special place partially because of the nature, but partially because I think the people have to endure these wild fluctuations in weather because later in the day yesterday was seventy one degrees, but in the morning I'm busting my ass slipping on ice trying to deliver a matcha to my beautiful wife. I see that moment happening or two where your feet slip on the banana peel like the cartoons you run in place for like five seconds. And then when your arms go up, everything goes slow and it's like d And you just see green and brown in the air. I'm glad it's not on video though, but did you go back and get the matcha? I went back and got another matcha. Of course I did. Yeah, I limped back and got I'm still in pain right now. My legs all bruised up and it hurt my back and my neck. And Ryan and I were doing the Missoula podcast is local guy Brandon Smith over there who does this great show. It's local, but they have listeners all over the world because a lot of people connect with that community and they want to know more about Montana and Missoula. And so we did a whole conversation over there. And so I limped back, got the matcha, made it, you know, here's another thing I had to let go of. I realized something yesterday that part of my identity is I'm a guy who's on time . And I really like being on time. It's a strong preference of mine. But I also realized that, oh no , this is part of like I'm thinking I need to do whatever I can to beat make sure I'm still in time for this podcast. I ended up being five minutes late because of this emergency that I had, right? And so I had to let that go. I've always been the guy. I'm sure it was a coping mechanism when I was a kid. They didn't have an award for this. I had perfect attendance from every grade after second grade because I had the chicken pox one year so I couldn't go to school but actually I did not miss a day of school , even when I was crazy sick or had streb throat and there is a level of letting go that I just had to do even yesterday where I'm like, I need to let go of this piece of my identity because it's not serving me anymore. Yeah, ooh, I like that. So when we do the next minimalist documentary . We're going to put that scene in there for comic relief . And we're gonna have you be fifteen minutes late . And when you get to Beck's with her matcha, she's gonna be like so mad that you late. She's like, I don't even want a matcha now. And she'll take the cup and throw it at your face and matcha will spill all over you again . She would never, but that is a hilarious scene. It's like an episode of Cur b your enthusiasm . Well, TK , here's something to shoe on. Every item you own is something eventually have to organize . When you think about buying things, we rarely think of that. Like anything that I own, anything that I purchase, anything I bring in is something I eventually have to organize. Why do you think we don't think about new purchases this way ? Hm Well, new purchases tend to make big promises , and that's really the joy of novelty because it's something that we don't already have and the promises are big. That new treadmill that you purchase for New Year's is the promise of physical fitness, right The new car is the promise of ease and convenience and the luxury feel , but all things, whether new or old have maintenance and upkeep . And when it comes to the things that are already present in our lives, things with which we're already familiar, well it's easy to think about the maintenance because we're already involved in the process. But when it comes to this new thing, we see the possibilities which motivates us to purchase it, but we don't have the responsibilities that come with it. And those responsibilities aren't a bad thing. It just means that everything has costs beyond the price tag cost. There's the cost of managing it. There's the cost of dealing with it. And you want to keep that in mind and make sure that you're good with being able to afford both. Yeah, and the cost of continu ously organizing our living space. And I think that'll be a bit of a theme here today that every item you own is something you eventually have to organize. And that is value neutral. I'm not saying organizing is good or bad. I think often organizing doesn't work. And we'll talk about that a bit today as well, because we're talking about everyday things that turn into clutter today. Also areas in your home that become messy very quickly. And I have one question to ask yourself before you buy new clothes. And much, much more today on episode five hundred forty four of the Minimalist podcast. Also on page two , I have fifteen useful tips for using your phone less. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question for the show, we'd love to hear from you. four zero six two one nine, seven, eight, three nine. That's the phone number or you can just grab your phone, record a quick voice memo and send it to podcast at the minimalists. com. We'd love to hear from you. Shout out to our Patreon subscribers. Let us know if you're a patron subscriber so we can prioritize your message . Our first question today is from Wendy. Hi, my name is Wendy. I'm calling from Walnut Creek, California. I love advice on the practical side of minimalism. My home is organiz ed and yet I still feel visually cluttered because everyday items end up living on countertops and other surfaces . When I see minimalist homes, I always wonder where does everything actually go . For example, in the kitchen, how do people keep so much counter space open and clear? In the primary bathroom, where do things like lotion, makeup, hair products, contact solution, extra toilet paper, band aids, miasporin and sun screen actually live. And what about charging cords, sentimental items, journals, gift bags, or dog and cat toys? Open shelving especially seems to make things feel busier, not calmer for me. I'd really love your thoughts on the practical systems behind homes that feel minimal but still function for real life. Thanks so much for taking the time for my question. Well definitely get practical for Wendy. But first, I'd like to get a bit philosophical here and understand that we were talking about this a moment ago, about everything you bring in has to be organized. And it sounds to me like she's overwhelmed by the organization that's going on there. And so the thing that I would say first , the first thing we're thinking about in my own home is the easiest way to organize your home is to own less stuff. Owning less means having fewer things to organize. It also means having fewer things to stress over, the maintenance costs, the additional costs aren't there if you have fewer things . And people often think minimalism is an anti thing philosophy , but I think of it as a pro thing philosophy. Would you agree? Absolutely. I would say it's about entering into the healthiest possible relationship with the things that we have by getting rid of the things that are a distraction to that. In every area of life, we have core values and core interests that really define our why . And then we have things on the periphery, some of which supports our efforts, some of which distracts from those efforts. Minimalism is about getting rid of or minimizing the distractions so that all of the things that we have either reflect our core values or they support our efforts to be committed to them. I think about my own home and everything in my home has its own home. Like I have a home. I live there. And whether it's a studio apartment or it is if someone has a five bedroom or ten bedroom mansion, right ? I think about in that home still has a home and often the things that feel cluttered in the home are just contextually cluttered. Obviously, if I put my couch in my bathroom, I'm going to know right away that this is getting in the way. This is not the right home for that thing. And at first I might think, Oh , then I shouldn't have a couch, right? Well, no, it's just it has a different home. The home for my couch is my living room. Savedy, I'm going to send you a video that Tomcat can put here on the screen as we're talking about this. I'm just going to do a walkthrough of my home . And specifically, I'm thinking about the areas that Wendy talked about here, the entryway , the living room, the bedroom and the kitchen. So as we're talking about this, we'll just have the video play ing here. And what you'll see in this home isn't that I don't own things , it's that I own the appropriate amount of things . And she touched on one thing I think is really important for me is I don't do open shelving except for my bookshelf in my office . And the reason I don't do open shelving is she's right. I don't want to expose all of the things that I'd like to put away. There's a reason that I don't have all glass windows all around my home either. It's not well, there are a few reasons. One is I don't think that'd be very eco friendly and my heating and air conditioning bills would be off the charts, but also I don't want everyone to be able to look into the house all the time and be fully exposed. And I would say the same thing might be true for my material possessions. It's not that I'm hiding them away. It's I'm putting them away. I like to make that distinction. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think there's it also gets at the tension that exists between accessibility and aesthetic where accessibility refers to the convenience of where I place things and where I retrieve them from whereas aesthetic how they actually look when they are in that place. And sometimes the most convenient place to put things is not the most aesthetically pleasing place to have them. And if you think about it in terms of like you walk in and you know, the most comfortable thing is to just take off your shoes and put them somewhere by the door, to empty your pockets of your keys and your wallet may,be just put them on whatever table or surface is nearby. The mail comes in and you don't have time to look at it right then and there, just put it on whatever surface is nearest to wherever you retrieve the mail from. But then when you have to step back and look at that, you go , oh, convenient to place it there , not pretty to look at. And then that's where this question is born. Yeah, and often convenience is the enemy of minimalism. Tweet that Professor Sean because what we do is it's very convenient or easy to do what you just talked about. I'm going to find this interstitial zone. In fact, during the question of the week, we'll talk about some of these interstitial zones that turn into problems really quickly. And so there's some questions. Let's get practical for a moment with Wendy . And the questions I ask myself is, where is this thing's home? And it's easier for a thing like a couch. We know where is its home. It's going to be in my living room. But even there, you can say, well, it goes against this wall. Or maybe I want to create more space away from the wall and I have the appropriate amount of space to do that. And so my space actually feels more spacious if I put this piece of furniture in a different location in the home. That one's pretty easy to understand. But then there are all of these other things that aren't necessarily aesthetically pleasing. If you have a bunch of cat and dog toys in your house as Wendy mentions, or you have a bag of dog food, and you don't just want to put that on the counter, and you don't want those things out on the floor. That's when they turn into clutter, even if they're useful. And I think it's important to understand that there are those two types of clutter. There's the contextual clutter that we just talked about. And then there's the useful or useless clutter in our homes. And we need to make that distinction. If I have something that is use less and then I just put it in a drawer or a cabinet or an attic or a basement or shove it out there in the garage , guess what happens? It's just useless somewhere else. It's clutter that is hidden. But then you have these other things that are useful and they're just clutter because they're contextual clutter. They're fitting into these interstitial zones and they have a better home in your home. And I'm sure you've had to deal with this quite a bit now that you and Michelle moved into this apartment that was just right for you because of the location . And so you settled for much fewer square feet. You have a four hundred square foot apartment and because of that you, have to be really cognizant of where things go. Things must have a home because you don't have a lot of room for things that might get in the way. And you've got to be really creative too, because some things you really want, you feel like they really serve you. And even when that's true, it doesn't mean you have room for them. And so you have to say, well, how can I place this? You know, how can I make this work ? And that might require a little sacr ifice in one area or some flexibility in a different area. But you're absolutely right. It takes a lot of intentionality and you can't over prioritize convenience. It's not only the enemy of minimalis m, it's the enemy of beauty. It's the enemy of effectiveness, and it's the enemy of really the life that you want to create. It's not to say that convenience should be demonized as intrinsically bad, but convenience without discipline is the exact life you don't want to have. The question of discipline is a question of where is it worth sacrificing convenience in order to create in order for me to create the results that matter most to me. And by the way, adding more storage space , it feels like that can be the answer here, but often it is not. In fact, I would argue most of the time it's not. I'm thinking back to when Ryan and I lived in Missoula and we were roommates together . And it was the first time I'd ever been a roommate with anyone other than a romantic partner . And it was me and Ryan and Colin Wright, who we had started a business together. This was twenty thirteen. We were looking for a new january twenty thirteen. We were looking for a new apartment to move into. And we found a house there on Brooks in Missoula. And it was almost perfect for us, but the reason that I said no to it is there was too much storage space . And I realized, oh , I'm actually going to pay more for the space we're not going to use. And it wasn't the right kind of space. It wasn't a spaciousness sort of space. There were giant walk in closets. I mean, huge, one of the bedrooms had a walk in closet that was almost half the size of this studio. Even though it was an old house, it wasn't a particularly fancy or nice house. In fact, I think they must have converted a small room into a closet. It was a room that we were never going to use, and yet we were still going to pay for it. Not just pay for it financially, but pay for it with the space it takes up in our mind. This closet that we weren't going to use wasn't the kind of space that we wanted. Maybe I did want a big spacious living space , but I don't want space that just goes unused. Imagine paying for a storage locker that you never used and yet you get the bill every month for two hundred dollars. That's what this kind of felt like. We had giant closets. We had a giant pantry that we weren't even going to fill up a quarter of the way. And at first it can feel like if I just had more storage space , well then my house wouldn't be as cluttered. It would be organized. I would say, well, it's true. It would be organized, but I don't think it would be less cluttered. It would just be cluttered differently. You would take your clutter, the things you aren't using, so the useless clutter, and you would put them elsewhere. And so when you walk through my house and you take a look at that video we were just looking at. We can throw it up here on the screen again . If you walk into my entryway there's no clutter there, but I have a few cabinets and there are a couple things I keep behind those cabinets from cords and things that are hidden out of sight . And then if you walk into the living room and you see the living room here in the kitchen, there sort of it's a combined space here. We have empty countertops. And this is how I live every day. They're not completely emp ty. You have a coffee kettle and a coffee grinder there. The things I use every day are the things I keep on the counter. We call it the no piles rule . And then when you go into the living room, I have some stuff there. In fact, I will often I have a yoga block that I use every day. I have a meditation cushion that I use every day. It's all part of the furniture. In fact, we're sleeping we're sitting more and more on the floor as opposed to sitting on the couch. We still use the couch pretty regularly, but we're finding that we spend much more time on the floor with some of our PT tools, you know, for physical therapy and stretching and so I have a foam roll er in there . And so it's important for those things for me to be aesthetically pleasing because if they're not aesthetically pleasing, then I try to hide it. But there are many things I have in my home that are in the pantry that I use regularly, that aren't aesthetically pleasing and I want them out of sight. It's having the appropriate amount of space for those things, but also having the appropriate amount of things, as you illustrated with your smaller form square foot apartment. It's having the appropriate amount of things so that they fit into the space that I have. I think Wendy would get a lot of benefit from very, very simple. It's this audiooko that b you and I recorded. There are these twelve tools, twelve rules for a simpler life . And I was looking at the list of all of these rules and usually someone calls in and I'm like, Oh yeah, you know, the No Piles rule would work really well for you. Or the Hate That Shirule would work really well. Or what about the Clutter Coffins rule? That definitely works for Wendy's question. Or what about the entryway rule, or the junkless junk drawer rule or the future clutter rule or the set the stage rule . For Wendy, it's the first color where I think all there's thirteen of these actions we have this bonus rule, the Wednesday rule I think all thirteen of these rules or tools, they're just adjustable boundaries for your own life. All thirteen of them from very, very simple, would add a lot of value to your life and make your home feel a lot calmer . And so you can actually it came out as a print book recently as well. Really beautiful paperback that we were able to put together . Sean just put it up there and Dave designed the paperback and it's beautiful. So you want to check it out as a paperback, you can do that. I prefer the audiobook because you and I did a little mini podcast between every single rule. And it's only like ninety minutes. You can find that on audible as well. But Wendy, I'd be happy to send you a copy of very, very simple. Whether you want the book book, the e book or the audiobook version. It's twelve tools for a simpler life, plus that one bonus tool as well. Before we get back to our callers TK, let's examine the question of the weak . What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest ? What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest? Let's check with our Patreon community chat, see what they had to say . Stacey says, My kitchen quickly turns into clutter. My kitchen turns into clutter if I let it. I think that's the important part. She's taken responsibility here, right? If I let it turn into a cluttered space. She says Sundays are for wiping down the refrigerator, pantry, appliances, cabinets, door handles, counters, and drawers . I call that the once a month rule, but she's doing it once a week. So it's an adjustable boundary there as well. She says checking for expiration dates, spills, empty packaging, spoiled leftovers, crumbs on the floor or in bar stools or place mats . This hub of family life needs a weekly refresher. Let's put a pin in that that phrase there. This hub of family life because I think that's applicable and we'll see a theme here. Sean said our bookshelf tends to be a transition point that clutters quickly mail , packages, school projects, and other small items that are enroute to their true destinations . And the Susan said, My garage entryway has turned into an appliance halfway house. What a great turn of phrase . An appliance halfway house. She says pressure cookers, rice cookers, and slow cookers check in , but they never seem to check out. Remember those old raid commercials, or the Roach Roach Motel commercials? Yeah, you didn't grow up poor. You probably don rem'embert any of that stuff. It's like, what is a Roche Motel? Sabby, I don't know if you remember these, but it was like the Roche Motel where the Roaches check in , but they never check out and it was like the way that you could kill but they check out all the time. It didn't work at all . You said my kitchen light on back on Warren Street in Ohio and I there was like a thousand roaches would just scatter as soon as the light came on. It was the craziest. Isn't that like the most resilient insect, by the way? It has to be a man. Yeah. Yeah, it's either that or humans. I've seen YouTube videos on their speed is uncanny, how fast they are , how rapidly they reproduce. Yes. I think it's an alien . They are here already. They live. He's got the tinfoil hat on it and I'm here for it. We're going to do that. We'll have to do that on Patreon. We'll do the whole , what are the animals and insects that are most likely to be aliens? Victor Winbinamas was definite ly on that list, man . He's got to be seven, seven. I saw a picture of him walking next to Kelly O'Lenick who's like the third string center on the San Antonio Spurs and he was at least a head taller than Kelly O'Lennick. Kelly Olenick's seven feet tall . And Victor Mignon was listed at like seven three years. There's no way. He's hiding how tall he is. I'm calling him eight feet at this point now. I saw a video of him walking in the Madison Square Garden. And these ladies, I guess the caption was like, These New Yorkers be wowing out. And these ladies like, ooh, that's a tall glass of sugar right there, baby. And they just cat calling him the whole time that he's walking. He's just laughing at . Let's do one more here. This one's from Taylor. Taylor said the kitchen island it's right at the entrance of our apartment. Some of these things are a physical reminder of my to do list. The rest is my husband's drop zone of stuff . And I love him so much that I'm cool , even though it's not my preference. Well, I will say this that love is not a permission slip for clutter. That's my pithy answer for you today, my minimal maxim . And because sometimes it'd be unloving to simply let someone to not acknowledge your your preferences because your husband may not know your preferences at all. And of course, then there's a tactful way to do it. The way not to do it is to be like, Hey, what's up with this stupid pile of stuff or hey, can you get this stuff out of your drop zone as opposed to getting really curious about it? TK taught this to me. Whenever a pile starts to accumulate in my home in a day of two pieces of mail show up on the counter, I'll just get curious about the banks. Hey, tell me about what's going on here with this pile. She's like, Oh yeah, that's your mail. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. Let me deal with it now because everything has a home. And clearly that's not a home. But TK not,ic Ied a pattern here between Stacey and Sean and Susan and Taylor . Each of these individuals has a euphemism for their little interstitial zone, which coincidentally, I think three of the four were sort of at the ent ryway there as well. But they had these little euphemisms. They said this is the hub of family life or this is a trans point or this is an appliance halfway house. That was probably the most honest of them, right? Because the other ones they almost gives you permission to just, oh yeah, that's just that's my husband's drop zone . I think a drop zone is a great idea. I also think a hub of family life is a beautiful idea. And a transition point , yes, the entryway is a transition point , but when we use this sort of language, it can soften the fact that it's not really a transition , it's a convenience point. Yeah, I think there are a few reasons for why that may be the case . The first I will dub as the hot potato rule. So imagine that you've got an object in your hand and maybe there's a fire or better yet, there's some kind of emergency in the outside world that you got to rush off to. And you're the last one leaving the house, you got this object in your hands someone's, like, come on, Josh, we got to go've just put that down. And you look around, what's the easiest place to put this down and just kind of feel good about getting to it later? All of these spaces that were named are that kind of space and we all need that because sometimes we are in a rush, sometimes we've got a lot of things on our mind. And sometimes it is best to come back to something later, set it down, tend to something more urgent, come back and organize that. That's a fitting thing. If there's an emergency, you're saying. Not necessarily if there's an emergency. Just in the course of a day, you might have a lot of things that you need to handle. So for instance, you walk into the house with a bunch of groceries, but you really got to pee. Yeah. That's not exactly an emergency, but that's just a very common thing that can happen in life. So you need a place that's easy to sit it down so you can go do that. And then you come back and you put all of the things into their proper place. I'm going to ask me this is the fight part of the podcast. Fight fight, fight, fight. I love to disagree here, but I think it's probably just a semantic disagreement. I think having well, at least for me, you got my stream is like a twenty one year old . A peeing is an emergency. If I need to use the bathroom right now that is a type of emergency. If I really have to use the bathroom, and so to me anything I'm not willing to deal with right now, they're probably does need to be some sort of an emergency going on . So I have a rule as well. I call the seven second rule because usually what happens is if I spend an extra seven seconds, I'll give you an example. If I take my shoes off at the entryway , fine. It takes me about what? Five seconds to do that. If I spend an extra seven seconds , it feels insurmountable in the moment because I just need to hurry up to take these off. Do I have seven seconds to actually put these shoes up ? And for any one item , it's almost always seven seconds, even though it feels like it's going to take a lot longer. Now for something like groceries, yeah, it's seven seconds per item. And if I have something that is maybe it's not an emergency, but it is urgent that I have to use the bathroom . But we also wouldn't just take the groceries and leave them on the coun ter for several days because we know they would spoil. That's exactly right. And so the important thing here is not how we define the word emergency, but it's rather the acknowledgement that sometimes in our process entering into our home with various possessions on us, there are things that demand or request all our attention that make it convenient for us in those moments to sit things down in the most ac cessible place at that time with the intention to coming back and addressing it later. So I could be walking in home into my home with my laptop bag and my coffee mug, and maybe my mom calls me as I'm walking in. And this is not an emergency, but I don't wanna miss this call. And so I just set things down in the easiest place and then I pick up the phone call. Now, one of the things that we do in life is we often delay things that we know need to be done, things that are not very difficult to do with the intention to coming back to them later. And then we just forget. How many times have you not texted someone back or replied to a DM or something that you looked at, you said, oh, I'm going to come back and do that in a moment . And then you just forget . And that explains a lot of what happens in these kinds of spaces. A second thing that influences these kinds of situations is we often value not having to think too hard about things that we use frequently. I don't want to have to think very hard about where my car keys are. And so we sit things in places where it might be easy to remember even if we don't remember. So if I put my coat and my car keys right by the door, well even if I don't remember where I put them, when I walk out and that's the time when I'll need them, I will see them and easily be able to retrieve them. And what often happens is that ease seduces us into putting a number of things there that might be best placed somewhere else, but they offer us that benefit of the convenience. And so you have these kinds of spaces that naturally emerge . And one of the reasons why I love your setting the stage rule or I love how this family talked about how they take a look at the hub on Sundays and wipe everything down is because these are not just ways for us to prepare for the future. They're also ways for us to show grace towards our past because none of us are perfect and we don't always follow through on our intentions. And sometimes we do get a little disorganized because life sometimes gets complex and chaotic in a way that's not illustrative of having vices . And when that happens, you need these built in rituals that allow you to say, hey , it's not the end of the world that I left that bag in an improper place because there is grace in my Sund that allow me to use that as time to wipe down the counters or go back and cover up the multitude of sins I committed throughout the week, so to speak with my things. So let's talk about that. What might a healthy version? Because some of these are the unhealthy version and we're just putting a mask on it and saying, Oh yeah, this is the hub of family life or this is a transition point or this is the halfway . That's the honest thing. Yeah, it is a halfway house right now. It is a and it is a transition zone. That's honest. I get that , but the under the underlying statement from each one of these people is like, I'd prefer if it was different . And you don't have to get rid of the transition zone . You don't have to get rid of the drop zone. But what would a healthy drop zone look like for you? You began by saying, Hey, what's right about this? What's right about it is the convenience? All right, cool. Is there another place I can put it that might just require an extra two steps, an extra three to four steps? And it's a little bit more work, but it's not that much work and it gets me these same benefits. And so things like making use of that nightstand in your bedroom, making use of that closet on the other end of the house, or making use of the cabinet that we've cleared some space away so that we can place the games when we're done. It might just require a little bit more effort, but you've got to be intentional and deliberate about it by saying, Here's where I'm going wrong . Here are the benefits that are being offered to me by the thing that I don't want to do. And I'm going to strategically create or make room for a space in my home that gives me those same benefits. And that's how you got to go about it. I agree. And maybe it's just an extra seven seconds. And sometimes it is if I can do this in seven seconds and I don't have an emergency going on, even if I have something urgent , the urgent thing can probably wait seven seconds. Yeah. Now, if I have something that's going to require much more work, but the truth is most of these things don't, especially if you have a healthy drop zone set up. So when you'll go back to that video again of my home, when you walk into the entryway, I have what I would consider to be a healthy version of a drop zone. And it's not because well, my house was more perfect than yours. No, it's because I dealt with the same issues as Stacy and Sean and Susan and Taylor. Every time I'd come home, there was a drop zone that felt cluttered. It felt disorganized, it felt like this transition space, like I needed to do something with this area all the time. It was a perpetual to do list of organizing. And so the first thing to note is, of course, decluttering is more effective than organizing. Getting rid of the things that don't need to be organized makes the space feel simple , but then having a drop zone that is beautiful for me was also really important. So as soon as you walk in, I have these shelves in the home and they were kind of ugly when we got to home. We had to paint them white. And so we painted them white and you can paint them whatever color you want, but they were like this weird blue that just didn't comport with my idea of aesthetically pleasing things. And so we painted the shelves white and we put some artwork on it. So I've got this glass teardrop vase on there and then I have like this little house and a few other bits of art. And then I have a collection tray where things can go that need a home, need to be dealt with throughout the day, but the collection tray is also beautiful. And then I have a piece of artwork that is a bowl. That's where I keep my keys and my wallet, and anything else that might be in my pocket. So I have a beautiful drop zone for these things that adds an element of aesthetic beauty . But the first thing I have to do is make sure that it fits the things that I put there regularly. And the way to do that is to get rid of the things that I'm not going to be using with any regularity, finding a better home for those things. I'll make one last counterpoint here , and I don't know if you'll think it's a counterpoint, but that's good for marketing. Always is . A lot of our conversation is centering around how do I make things more beautiful, more simple, more aesthetic, more organ ized . But I also think an important piece of this puzzle is asking ourselves, what are the messes that I'm willing to tolerate as that comes with the territory of the way I choose to do family life. It's not a cost I'm willing to pay to get rid of that mess. That's right . And I think part of what it means to do family and this doesn't mean anything negative about having family . But if I were to go to anyone that is married or has children and I say, I know that you love your situation better than the alternative. But let's just imagine for a moment that you were single and you didn't have your spouse or your children affecting you in the way they do. Is there anything you would do differently? I think apart from feeling like this is an incriminating question to answer, I think most people would say like, yeah, I probably would do that differently. I have more of that, I have less of this because there are always things we take on , responsibilities we take on, possessions we take on, things we tolerate, meaning that if you were not single and you were just making your life about you, I think you were talking about this before the show dis,cus wes'ingre like animation films and things like that and movies with talking animals and stuff. And you were saying you wouldn't watch those movies by yourself, but you watched them with your daughter because you love her. And I would enjoy them with my daughter. And you would enjoy them with your daughter. But what you would enjoy with your daughter you would never watch if it's just you alone. I wouldn't have watched Peppa Pig episode after episode by myself. Right. Even though you have no regrets about watching that episode after It's the same way with our messes in life. It's like, it's great to have a spouse. It's great to have children. It's awesome. But also that means that sometimes we do have to be like Taylor and say , That's my wife drop off z.one Now maybe if that particular drop off zone is so irritating to me, it's killing me. Maybe we can have a conversation of like, hey, I know you need a drop off zone, but is there a way we can have a compromise? And maybe we have a drop off zone that's like not right in front of the door so that I'm tripping when I'm walking or something like that, right? But at the end of the day, you still are going to have to tolerate that there are presences in the house, preferences in the house, possessions in the house, ways of managing those possessions in the house other than your own. And that's an important part. I agree. And you might also recognize that they are also struggling with it. They may not be. It may not be clutter for them at all, but you may show up with a solution and they're like, wow this is so much better. I'm glad we created a healthy drop zone or because you're already doing that compromise, your spouse might say, oh yeah, I didn't realize that was really bothering you. And if you have a better way for us to organize these things , then yeah, let me know. And you might say, yeah, well we're going to make the space look better so it conforms with what would be peaceful and calm for me and who knows. Maybe that's even peaceful and calm for someone else in the house as well. How about you listeners? What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest? Let us know your thoughts in the comments on Patreon or YouTube. All right, I got my minimal maxim out of the way, I made room for you TK. By the way, you can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at the minimalists dot com slash podcast. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox every Monday for free. If you sign up for our free email newsletter, it's called the Simple Newsletter. You can find that the minimalists dot com We'll never send you spam or junk or advertisements, but we'll start your week off with a dose of simplicity , including a new essay, a new minimalist tip, new minimalist insight every Monday in that email as well. All right, give me something pithy, TK. What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest . Clutter is creativity in disguise. Another way I might put that is to say that clutter is frozen creativity and creativity is liquidated clutter. Now first I'll answer the question directly and that is books. That's the most likely thing to become clutter for me. But why is that? Books have to have an entry point into my home before they become clutter and no one looks at something and says to themselves, I will bring that in my home for the express purpose of making it clutter. We bring things into our home because there's something about those things that reflect our aspirations and our affinities. That's the creative self. Oh, if I have that thing , it will nurture or inspire or give expression to some part of my creative self, whether that be a work of art, a book, those records and the record player, whatever it may be. And then we bring it into our homes with all of these great ideals and intentions, and maybe we become forgetful or we become distracted. We lose sight of the why that constituted the reason for bringing them into our homes. And then that creative energy freezes and it becomes clutter. It becomes the water that grows stale from never running . And that's what happens. And so the way that we deal with that clutter is either by getting rid of it or by liquidating it and saying, hold up . Wake up, man. Why did you buy that? Oh , do you still want to exercise? Okay, you don't have to get rid of it, but use it.. Yeah Bring it back to life again by infusing it with your why. Yeah, forcing yourself to use it all make you realize like if you pick up a book and you get through, I did this the other day. I found a book at a free library. It was from nineteen ninety nine, it was called The Power of Simplicity. And it was a business advice book. And I'm like, this title's calling to me. So I brought it on this road trip to Missoula and I read a few pages and it was a slog . And I'm like, Oh , no, I don't actually want to read this . And so I donated it and I moved on because it was if I'm not going to use it, let me get rid of it. Let me liquidate it in a way. And that could be I'm going to use start using it or I'm going to let it go. If I'm not willing to use it, that's a good heuristic that I might want to to get rid of it. That's almost the end of page one. TK we solved an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, but first real quick for right here right now. One thing that's going on in the life of the minimalists. We already talked about it, but let me just wrap it up real quick. We just finished the tenth anniversary tour of minimalism, our first Netflix documentary. It came out in twenty sixteen. It was a beautiful experience when that came out. And that documentary's had legs. I think ninety five or ninety six million people have seen it so far. You can watch it on YouTube now, by the way. We got the rights back from Netflix a couple years ago, and you can watch it over there on YouTube right now. And you don't have to pay us anything to watch it . It's over at YouTube. com slash the minimalists. And so that's given it a whole new life there as well. But then we took it out to some of our favorite theaters and some states that meant a lot to us. So Nicodemus was born in Tennessee, so we did an event in Tennessee and at the Franklin Theater. And of course, we started the Minimalist in Dayton, Ohio, I was born in Dayton, Ohio, so we did the Neon Theater over there. And I live in OH, so we did the OHI playhouse at the end of our simple haven or retreat . We did an event there. And these are like some of my favorite theaters, including the Roxy Theater in Missoula, Montana, which we filmed most of minimalism in and around Missoula, Montana, at least a lot of the interviews with me and Ryan, and then of course the other segments with different people we interviewed while we were out on tour . And I was just talking to Matt Dievell about it this week. And minimalism itself, the concept of minimalism, the lifestyle of minimalism is making a bit of a resurgence. In twenty twenty six, if you look at Google Trends, it's the most popular it's been since twenty sixteen. That was the real spike twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen when that first documentary came out. And we got to show it in the theaters and it was beautiful because A, it really holds up . And I think some of the problems are new. That's why we're making a new documentary called The Great Declutter. But the film itself really holds up a decade later. And seeing it on the big screen and the music makes it real emotional. And Drew and Nate who did the soundtrack for it. The music holds up really well, the emotion holds up. And we showed a little preview of the Great Declutter, a nine minute sizzle reel before the film in each city. And it got an ovation every time. In fact, in one city, you got a standing ovation for basically a trailer, a nine minute trailer about the new documentary. And I've had so many people talk about where they see that going because it's about the clutter beyond the clutter , which is what we touch on a bit here on the podcast. We're doing a full length documentary about that. So if you want to check out minimalism, you can't get in theaters anymore, but you can watch it right there on your big screen TV or on your computer or your phone or tablet over on the YouTube channel. But also while we were there, Nicodemus, when he was here on the podcast, we talked about his new restaurant that he opened and we did a little grand opening celebration there, but he didn't need it at all because well that thing is going amazing. They have a line out the door every day. His restaurant's called Sumac and he's really working at the restaurant. He's working thirty, forty, fifty hours a week right now. Every time I went in there, he'd have a towel on his shoulder. And if you get the bread there, he's baking the bread himself or he's rolling it out. And it's all from scratch. And the chef that he started this restaurant with his name's Abriich Ro and he's like a celebrity chef locally, like not worldwide, but locally he has a reputation. And so as soon as he and Nicodemus and they have one other business partner, they started this restaurant together and it's the entrance is really hard to get into. You have to enter the restaurant from an alley . It was crazy. The first time I walked up, there was just a line of people down an alley waiting to get this delicious Mediterranean food . And then when I got to taste it, it was truly remarkable. So if you find yourself in Missoula, Montana, and you want to try out Ryan's new restaurant, it's called Sumac. Make sure you leave a review when you go there. You are going to love it. Hey, man, can I ask what was your favorite thing there? The Domas, it was like these grape leaves wraps. It had some lamb in them. They're really delicious . He had this gluten free bread that was, it's from Tandem Bakery and it was amazing . We did a limited taste testing menu for the event that we did and the hummus is from scratch and de licious. The lamb that they have there, and I generally don't like lamb that much . It can be too lamby for me, but it was local from the Bitter Valley there and Abe made it in a way that just it was remarkable. So they have vegan options, vegetarian options, or carnivorous options there as well . Everything I tried was delicious. And I know that just feels like a promo, but there wasn't one thing where I'm like, I don't know about this. Everything was like a little bit better than the last thing. Yeah. It was so good. That's a that's a good thing to be able to say about a menu. One last question and that is what's your favorite memory from the screening? Ooh well one person asked me goes, Where did you guys find TK ? And I'm like, Ziprecruiter. com . In fact, this podcast is brought no, I'm just kidding. Wouldn't that be a hilarious transition? You set me up for the recruiter ad . Man, I just really love Ryan and the experience of screening these and seeing how it resonates with an audience. And some of the people we did some impromptu polls there and about half of the people at these events had never seen the film before . And about thirty percent of them, this was their third or more time seeing the film. And so there was this group of enthusiastic people who wanted to see it again and see it on the big screen in these amazing indie theaters. And we got to support these local indie theaters, which is really important to me . And then seeing the new people who are like, this is the first time I've ever seen it and them walking away from a ten year old film with the same thing that the people who watched it ten years ago walked away with. I also loved the huglines after each event because we had people coming from all over the place. There were four people from Michigan who came to Missoula at this one, which they didn't come together. We're talking four different people. There's a group of two and then someone else came by themselves and so people come from all over the place because this is something that has resonated with them. And I feel really grateful that something we created more than a decade ago continues to resonate with so many people. All right, before we move on to page two, real quick, let's do a what would Joshua own question. This one is from Sam in Liverpool . Hello, my name's Sam . I'm from Liverpool in England and I love what you guys do and appreciate everything you're doing . And my question is for Josh. I just wanted to know where he got his new shack et from . I think it's really nice, really nice looking, dead easy to wear . And yeah, we'd appreciate it if you'd let me know where he got it from. Thank you. Now, I use this word shacket all the time. It just means shirt jacket, but my wife and I use it sort of jokingly. I don't know if this is a British thing or a Liverpool thing , but calling a shirt jacket a shacket where it's sort of that interstitial space between shirt or jacket. Is it a shirt? Is it a jacket? Is it both? Is it neither? And to be honest, jackets are my kryptonite. And I'll tell you the brand here in a moment, although because they're my crypto cryptonite, I don't even know which jacket or jacket you might be talking about. So before I talk to you about the brand, I want to present a question that is really useful for me. Before I make any purchase , especially the things I tend to overcome, like jackets. And that question is instead of asking, do I want this? Because I know the answer to that, the answer in the moment is always yes. If I'm at Target and there's a snickers bar, the answer is yes, I want this. That's not a useful question. Do I want this? The answer is impulse. It's yes, yes, yes, give me, give me, give me. The more useful question for me is, does this product amplify the healthiest expression of who I want to be? How do you feel about that question? Is it useful ? I think so , but I would like to reframe it. Okay . There's an observation I've made about asking people questions , especially when they're not podcasts or professional commentators and things of that sort . And that is it can be very easy for people to put a lot of pressure on themselves when the question is worded in a particular way. So for instance, if you ask someone what's your favorite song ? It's easy for some people to psych themselves out by being like, o,h I have a lot of songs I like, but favorite, right? And if you change that to what's one of your favorite songs? Oh, now that becomes easy because I can't be wrong about this. I just have to name a song that I really like. What's the most useful lesson you've learned from a past relationship? Oh my gosh, I can't really know for sure that anything I say is the most useful . I'm going to think of something on the ride home that should have been said instead of that. But if you say what',s one useful lesson you've learned, then that takes the pressure off. And I think the same could apply here too. So does this product amplify the healthy expression of who I want to be? The healthiest? Oh man, this could be a lot of pressure. Well , let's soften it a little bit. Does this product amplify the person that I want to be? Yeah. Does it amplify my pursuit of the good life? Does it support you? Does it nudge you in that direction ? Does it help you ? And you want a yes to that question . And sometimes I've just seen enough people get psyched out with like, is that the best version of yourself? Like, oh, I know it don''ts if the best. Okay, okay, don't worry about it. You know, it don't have to be the best version of yourself. Is it a better version of yourself than where you're at right now? That's good enough. Let's keep moving in the direction of healthier or better. And we'll get to healthiest, we'll get to best. So I think it's useful just with that reframe. Well, the healthiest version or the best version of me is a total jacket slut and I've just accepted it . And I think I have six jackets. We did a whole video on this, but I'm going to put a couple photos up here on the screen. Tom Cat will put them up here. The first one is a picture of me and Ryan. So I don't know which shacket he's talking about. This is a picture from a couple months ago. We were speaking at Miami University and I'm wearing a Lulu lemon shacket that I actually got off of eBay. It was not it was used, but it just was new with tags really. So someone didn't want it for whatever reason. And so I wear that one all the time. It looks almost formal so, I get to wear it, I dress it up if I want to go to a nice restaurant or if I'm speaking on stage, or if I'm driving somewhere, I can wear the same jacket. It's basically a small windbreaker. It looks like a shirt, it looks like a jacket. So it's a shack, but also right next to me is Ryan Academus here. And you borrowed his shacket last time he was on the podcast. He's wearing it here in this photo. I think he just got it. I forget where he said he got it some local local stores. I don't know if Sam was talking about either one of these. There's also this other picture. Here's a picture of me sunburned . My daughter laughs every time I call my she sees this photo and I say it's Joshua Field Sunburn . And I'm wearing this really old champion zip up . It's a full zip sweatshirt from it's when I lived in Montana, so I've probably had it for over a decade at this point. I still wear it almost every day. When I get up and if I need something warm, this is the first thing that I go to. And it's just a basic zip up shirt, jacket shack from Champion . For anyone else has a What would Joshua own question for the show? We'd love to hear from you. You can ask me anything about what I own. My couch, my meditation cushions, my red light, my floor bed, my foam roller, my vagus nerve stimulator , et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Just email a voice memo to podcast at the minimalists. com will feature your voice on a future episode. Up next, page two and page three, but first let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back . All right y'all that is the first thirty three percent of episode five hundred forty four. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal two hour episode. It was actually longer than two hours this time. We were really waxing philosophical a lot of practical things we wanted to talk about. We answered a bunch of questions as well. Like Ginger from Texas wants to know how to politely tell her friend to stop gifting her more Stanley cups . Plus, Clayton in Denver is trying to break up with his smartphone before becoming a father, but he's struggling with the tension between digital simplicity and accumulating more analog alternatives. Also , how are some high end fashion companies using insecurity to scam you out of your money. All that and a million more questions and simple living segments. Over on the Minimalist Private podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcast, or Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Plus you'll gain access to all of our archives all the way back to our very first podcast episode. And that is our minimal episode for today on behalf of Ryan Nicadimus, TK Coleman, Audio B in, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savi Dee, and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields, Milburn, if you leave here today with just one message, I hope it's this . Love people and use things because the opposite works . Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace . Every little thing you think that you need every little thing you think that you need , every little thing that's just feeding your greed or a bed that you be fine out it