Bold Storytelling and Future Outlook

Hello and welcome to the Modern Retail Podcast, our show that covers the ways the retail industry is changing and modernizing I'm Special Projects editor Melissa Daniels If you've been watching ad campaigns or seeing new collections come out this June, you might have noticed a few pride campaigns mixed in I've been seeing some from Levi's, bulletproof coffee, plus a team up from Diesel and Tinder But we've also noticed brands taking Pide marketing much more seriously and cautiously in recent years corporations are pulling back on their parade sponsorships, for instance to unpack the strategies that brands have for making pride impactful and not just a performative moment in the retail tempo advertising calendar. To unpack all this, I am joined by Matt Tumonello and Matt Wagner from Target ten, an LGBTQ focused marketing agency that's worked with brands across categories for nearly two decades. They specialize in helping brands with queer communities in authentic and relevant ways and really connecting What I like about this approach is it's not only grounded in actual consumer data and insights They really know culture, they really know relevance and really just what's cool. Matt and Matt Wagner, welcome to the show Thank you. Nice to be here Thank you, greatreat to be here Well, thank you so much. I'm really excited for this conversation because I think it's so relevant to the cultural ecosystem we're all living in and scrolling through. And you guys are really at the center of it. So start me off with a little bit of a history lesson here and catching us up on how Pride marketing campaigns sort of have come to be and what we're seeing more recently Yeah, I can kick us off. And actually, Matt, you might have some interesting things. Matt wrote a very interesting blog post a couple of years ago about the term pide marketing and like what does that actually mean? And is that really the right term to use becausecause it involves a lot more things, right? It involves your employees. it involves workplace culture. It can involve marketing I think if you were to look back just like Target ten has been around for a minute and like the arc of history a little bit You almost had like three phases. you had brands that before marriage equality, let's say that we're saying, you know what? this consumer group is really important to us and or the employees are really important to us. Our values of inclusion are really important to us. We're going to be very supportive of LGBTQ presence in equality in this world And I think that was a little bit risky at the time. They knew it wasn't without risk to do those things. and it really got a lot of brand love when they did because LGBTQ consumers and individuals weren't used to seeing that. So you know, when someone you know, steps out on a limb for you, you remember it, you recognize it And then we had the marriage equality phase. Marriage equality passes. Obama's in office. It feels like it's a happy new world And all of these brands and companies think, o, it's safe now. I can say something. you know, hey, everyone's welcome. you know be very supportive. come out and say your piece. And they I think that's when we started to see a lot of what you might call priide marketing happening, like fashion capsules or a limited edition, this and that with proceeds going to, you know, a nonprofit organization up in that also where employees marching in parades and work basace culture and stuff like that And it also meant that competition for eyeballs and attention span got a lot more intense because before there was only a few And then now maybe more recent histories spepecifically very much since twenty twenty four, mayaybe because it's like twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three It has come with more risk As you're saying, Melissa, some brands are stepping back and it's a little bit quieter. others, fewer are staying the course and justust staying the course. I think that actually speaks volumes and they're benefiting from a bit of a, I won't call it a white space, but a quieter space. They no longer have the competitive nature of a crowded echo chamber of well wishers, if you will But I think that's kind of where we are today. and pride really should be part of your strategy, your long term strategy for connecting with consumers not your strategy for connecting. It's a piece of it's not really designed sell, it's to celebrate. You should be selling at other points during the year and connecting with these consumers And just to place those phases, so to speak in time, the first phase was kind of Mid to late two thousands, then as you entered the ou, the Obama era, that's when it started to almost take on this free wheeling sense of everyone and anyone can get involved and what might have been a little more intentional, a little more conscious of a placement of engagement, of communication and representation became a bit of a default add on or bolt on to almost every brief, especially when it came to summer and pride season. And I think that's also when you started to see a little bit of the dilution of LGBTQ marketing and engagement because brands were doing it so quickly and trying to take advantage of trends and really jump on the bandwagon often in a good way, but it did mean that you started seeing a lot of the same faces, a lot of the same themes because For better or for worse, the folks pulling these campaigns together often quickly, often last minute, when a client says, Hey, what's our pride plan? You reach for the easiest, quickest option, which tends to be the same small set of people, events, themes, topics, et cetera. So that's where it was this odd disconnect between suddenly, many, many more Entities, brands, companies were doing it, but it became rather shallow and superficial a lot of the time, not always, but a lot of the time. And I think now this third act, we're almost starting to see a bit of the balance again, despite what the reasons may have been to push us to that space where the marketing is a lot more clever, savvy, sophisticated based on the actual brand or company or product or service through an LGBTQ or queer lens, as opposed to having that lens really be the only thing was the focal point And what Matt just said was such a good point because that middle phase is where you really had this issue of thingsings being transactional and performative to kind of put two words to it And I think you said it very well, Matt, we are seeing, you, for better or for worse, maybe just people taking more time, being more intentional and differentiating quite honestly. L love is love is not a very differentiating campaign tagline. M Yeah, And you know, I think about the contrast between like what we saw Subaru do in the late nineties and really consciously craft marketing campaigns around a customer who's a lesbian that they knew was already buying their car. And that that was happening against the backdrop of like, don't ask don't tell being the law of the land. You know, that they were really kind of going out on a limb. and you contrast that with like I don't know, like the rainbow LinkedIn avatar from a corporation. you know what I mean? And it just sort of like speaks volumes behind the strategies there and the thoughts and the connection and the impulse And I think something related to that and not to generalize for every company that might have advertised with LGBTQ people back in the day, but There's almost a bit of an inversion too, where some of these companies like Subaru, like Absolute, like American Airlines, thinking of the mid to late eighties, early nineties They were realizing and taking advantage of the fact that they, however they figured it out or found it out, had existing large audiences within, whether the community at large or with Subaru, queer women, with absolute, probably more queer men, although certainly you know the community at large, whereereas now it's more supporting the audiences. There may be reasons that audiences quQeer people at large, men, women, different ages, different generations would engage with a skincare product. But now also as opposed to the nineties, there are almost unlimited variations on skincare, on alcoholic beverages, on travel, on any category. There's just so much there's a glut of brands and possibilities There's far more brands trying to court. queer people who maybe never even heard of the brand, but if they did, they would love it. So that's a slightly different sort of way about going at it that I think has changed rather dramatically in these thirty years. And Melissa, you said something really interesting. you said against the backdrop of don't ask donon't tell. I actually just hadn't thought of that years right? And I think that was also something interesting of that time versus now in that companies didn't really confused about what was a civil rights movement and what was marketing. What was a public statement of advocacy and targeted marketing. And for better for worse, there were just clearer swim lanes. Today things you know, and I'm not saying things should live in a vacuum, but I'm just saying that like I think sometimes brands might conflate civil rights movements with marketing opportunities. There is a space in place for all that Matt and I are marketers. We are very much involved in the civil rights movement for LGBTQ people, but our job is marketing. And sometimes we have the amazing gift of being able to bring those things together. Ultimately, what we're doing to advance visibility of consumers where people is advancing civil rights But at the end of the day, we are marketers Yeah, and you know, that kind of makes me think about the conversations I see unfolding on social media when brands do take a stance on something that is a civil rights issue or a humanitarian issue. And the conversation on social media sometimes becomes people being skeptical on if that's genuine or not. And that just makes me think about how today's audiences here in twenty twenty six are different than they were ten years ago or twenty years ago. And you know, just wondering when you are talking to queer audiences today, how that's different, you know, for a genen Zer, for a genen Xer, for a boomer, for a millennial because I imagine there's sort of different tones that the brands have to take something that we've seen, I think, both anecdotally and through some research that we've done, Target ten research with partners, looking at how those different generations react and perceive LGBTQ marketing engagement representation. And to your point, it is rather different. and I think it reflects some of these eras or phases that this form of marketing and communication has had over these past few decades More specifically, if you're looking, for example, at the difference between millennials and Gen Z, probably two of the most sought after audience categories and certainly Gen Z and Gen alpha now being growth segments dujure as they become adults and their discretionary spending increases We found that millennials like me, I'm forty two So I kind of came of age in the Obama era of that White House being lit up in rainbow lights and everyone sort of falling into place alongside that for the most part. And it was glorious. I think we had never seen this profusion of celebration and support for the community. And it kind of didn't matter if not everyone was necessarily in it to win it as authentically as the others The mere fact that we were seeing it, especially in the wake of these moments like the pulse shooting in Orlando, that would just drop us down like an anchor. And so you'd really want to see these brands and companies supporting you along with the government, the administration, you know civic society. And that all started to, I think, come to an end when obviously COVID and the pandemic just blew the world up in all sorts of ways and as Matt was saying, as we entered this new era and as Gen Zers became more true consumers because they weren't like kids anymore, like little kids, we started to see them taking an almost inverse view where they certainly had The same sorts of expectations, I think that companies brands engage with represent treat LGBTQ people properly, whether internally or externally through marketing, but they were more concerned with the brand itself. Is the brand cool? Is the brand functional? Is the brand interesting? Does it speak to me as a human being who's three dimensional of which one piece of my identity is being lesbian, trans, non binary, what have you. But I think They just don't lead with their identity at the forefront in quite the same way that millennials and previous generations did And so for that reason, it's more about that cool factor that Matt kinda mentioned being culture forward in ways that reflect and refract orientation but are not solely focused on it So that's I think, a key distinction between those two generations And if you think about it, it is the same for all brands brand marketing, right? You are going to have a target audience. It's likely going to have an age demo. I'm not going speak to someone of my generation or my parents' generation as I would speak to someone of my nephew's generation who's twenty three It just wouldn't make any sense. E myself, I don't get the cultural cues and pop stars and cultural moments of a twenty four year old twenty five as much as I would know I would love to be that you. You ever look at a headline and you're like, have no idea who these people are. This happens to me. No idea. No idea I feel like they're probably cool. They're probably And I'm not anymore, you know Exactly. No, I love this point One other thing too that I think slightly different point, but does relate to this, as we think about just generally increased sophistication, not just of consumers, but of marketing as well and how to discern amongst audiences. I think for the longest time, the LGBTQIA plus audience, which conceivably includes literally every demographic All ages, all genders, all orientations, all races, all ethnicities, all locations, you know what I mean? It's everyone and anyone. Yeah. Now I think not as much as it could be or should be, but marketers are getting a little savvier to think, oh, the same way that in general market, I don't just go for moms because that could be half the country. I go for Moms that have these seventeen demographic and psychraphic attributes. Similarly, and this is something Target ten has always done, but I think you're starting to see more more of it across the board. Oh, we are sububaru. We're not necessarily trying to engage all queer audiences. It's really queer women who have these particular tendencies or interests ages, etcer that are really the sweetot spot for our product. So that also speaks to I think the level of research and insight and just depth that you can go to reach consumers where they are in ways that are more individualized as opposed to sort of this broad community messaging that inevitably has to live up here because because it speaks liter to literally everyone I want to stay on that point and link that back to what you were saying earlier about showing up in a year long strategy, showing up in front of a community in ways, you know, armed with that data, you've decided that there's a certain queer community that is a great fit for your brand. They just have to know you're out there. You know, what do you do? What does that year round strategy engagement look like Well, I think first, let's unpack what year round means. And I think, you know That brand is truly year round with their marketing, right? There' seasonality, there's ten poll dates. There's when you lean in, when you lean out and stuff like that. But I think in this conversation when people say year round, what they mean is like some sort of consistent presence Um, and I think that It really depends on your brand If your travel brand, summer might be your, you know, your height of the season orr if you're a ski resort, it's the winterime. If you're a children's plan, perhaps back to school is your big season. So I think think of your brand key moments in terms of sales and promotions and whatnot and messaging. And then how do how does the LGBTQ cohort fit within that. in that campaign. And if you were to like kind of bring it back to the kind of the topic dujure of pride I think when you're engaging regularly at those key moments, you're involved in the community, you're marketing, you're doing promotions, you're increasing visibility, you maybe got some great workplace policies, you're doing all the right things internally when your brand shows up for a local pride parade where your headquarters is based, or they put that post out on LinkedIn and Instagram celebrating pride. It just kind of fits, right? Like o, that's we all talk about vibes these days, like, hey, like over the long term, my vibe for this brand, like I see myself in their world and seeing their Pride post today, no surprise to me, makes me feel good. L it, move on versus like, never heard from this brand before, donon't know why they're here. They're making a they're celebrating prride as if they're my best friend. and I don't think they've ever been to my party before. You know, it's like there's all of those kind of like donon't be a bad guest at a party analogies, but yeah I think I think Thats those are important points I love this idea of a brand really consciously making an effort to say, hey, this is a community that we know, we'll love and appreciate our project. We just have to introduce ourselves the right way with the right you know vibes marketing as it were. Curious if you have any examples you can talk about of brands you've worked with that have been on that trajectory and what kind of results they've had. know An examples of brands that you feel like you know, saw an opportunity with a certain queer demographic and then took that and ran with it Absolutely. So I think really one of the best examples, not just as a client of ours, but quite frankly in the marketplace in the last decade or so is Trojan Brand Trojan is owned by Troch and Dwight And we started working with the brand and its teams about seven years ago And it was actually right around when the pandemic had first started. And so that gave us an interesting opportunity when the marketing was kind of being reassessed given all of the changes happening in society to do some research, very much like what I was just describing. To understand how are young queer men thinking and behaving and digesting anything in the realm of sexual health and wellness. And that's including understanding their perception of condoms and lubricants and the actual physical products that the brand sells, but also queer male intimacy representation in TV and movies, for example because we wanted to get under how they felt they were being represented and engaged or not in this world so that we could then set Trojan up for success to engage them in ways that would both fit the brand, but also fit what they're seeking. And ultimately, we were able to do that. And over the course of these last six or seven years We've had this consistent presence, as Matt was describing, it's not something every single day, but they're not doing something every single day in general market either. And we've been able to work together to do everything from You know, at this point, probably thirty, forty creator partnerships with a wide variety of queer creators, most of whom were smaller, a little more niche. Now we've gotten into some of the bigger ones, but we always make room for varying sizes of folks to make sure we're hitting a variety of overlapping communities and segments and is also doing some event collaborations and production events you might expect, like fun pride events thrown by media properties like Soot g or quQeerity, but also working with events that have never had corporate sponsors before, like Bushwig, which is a really fun alternative drag festival that happens every year in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Bushwig where Trojan is the only partner And this event has been going on for almost fifteen years So ultimately, to give sort of a final example of where this all came to is just a couple weeks ago We were able to sponsor with Trojan brand and a sister brand at Church and Dwry called Therabreath, which is an oral care brand, sponsor the premier party of Stop that Train, which as folks may have heard is the current, or I shouldn't say current. It releases june twelfth. so this may come out a little bit before then, but RuPaul and the Drag Race universe birthed a film called Stop That Train, which is essentially a airplane style hijins comedy action thriller that I highly recommend. But Trojan Brand has a product integration in the film, which we were able to get through a relationship with World of Wonder, which produces Drag race. then because of that trust that had built between World of Thunder, the brand, Target ten, they offered us the opportunity to sponsor the world premiere of the movie itself and then activate at the after party And that was just kind of as fabulous as you might imagine. you know, hundreds of celebrities and drag queens and influencers all engaging with these brands in such a natural, organic way. And many of them were commenting on the Trojan work they'd seen over the years. So it just all felt like it belonged and like it fit, No one batted an eye. No one had an issue with the fact that a brand that in some millas might be a little extreme perhaps to sponsor an event totally normal here. And it was just a It' always a taboon as to sexual health stuff anyway. There's it's just like built in still. I mean, I know I hear it on the female side a lot too for like period care, you know? But but I love that you said that people had recognized the brand from other moments and other events and other partnerships because just like you were saying, it didn't like come out of nowhere And it's also it's not like you like send in an RFP to get the product placement. It's like this was built out of relationships and knowing the community. Yeah, no. And I think that's a super important point because when it comes not that this isn't the case in other other markets, other communities, but I think with LGBTQ, you know, there's a phrase small gay world and it's because it's really reallyally true. There are not that many of us in, you know, we're increasing in our numbers year over year as folks become more comfortable coming out, but it's still tiny community in the gnd scheme of things. And so not that we all know each other, but especially in marketing and professional circles and media, we do communicate a lot and we're aware of what each other is doing similar to black or Hispanic or AAPI, right? You stay in touch with your colleagues. And so that connection and connectability gives us all the opportunity to create these incredible marketing programs It's like one of these rising tides lift all boats, including our clients I feel like there's a lesson there in true allyship in marketing versus performative moments. And I think maybe that kind of comes back to what we were talking about with pride. It's like you can't just put out a campaign that has some slogans and rainbows on it and expect it to resonate if people aren't going to know why you're showing up all of the sudden But I feel like there's a lesson there like beyond queer communities for like talking to literally any audience of specificity ever, you know? Like you need to know them and show up the right way. Just just curious if that's something that you ever talk about with your clients as far as that line between performative and allys shhip Oh for sure. And I think that fortunately, I think because there are our clients and we're guiding them, we're really not falling into that you know performative trap if you really will. And I think what when Matt was taling like it's a small gay world, but also when you're working with inssiders and when I say insiders what mean, you're working with cultural strategists that understand a community inside and out. They understand the jokes, they understand the memes, they understand the music, they understand everything And you're and you're guiding that brand that's getting more and more comfortable in those spaces, understanding the jokes, part of the world, the part of the music, that's when it results in the movie preremiere a product integration. You have a brand who's Very fluent at that party versus and I keep using a party analogy, but it is like coming in and like trying to be cool in a place where you really don't know how to be cool. Well you know, when you work with the right cultural strategists They're working with you to get that cultural coolness, if you will. And it is so true. It's not just queer folk or any specific pocket they're in. It's are you working with the black community, the older community, the women's community? like whoo are you trying to talk to? because there's going to be like, if you know, you know moments. And if you're not a cultural strategist that understands that community inside and out It can be really difficult to build a winning brand marketing strategy. I mean, that's the job of a good strategist, whether they're in house or at an agency is to guide that brand through those waters. And hopefully, it's not a one hit wonder. So you're not just like, I'm going to give you talking points to get through this one hour event. U you're building with them year on year to become fluent. R. and then they become real true equal partners in the marketing strategy because they also share that fluency I love that. And I love that you mentioned the importance of having the people in the room who you're trying to talk to. I mean, no community is a monolith, but I still sometimes think people see campaigns and they're like, wasas anybody related to that audience in the room here? And you can tell the difference when they are. And that's the most beautiful thing I see happening You know, just just to sort of wrap this all up here, whether it's something specific you've seen to Pride this year or just overall, a campaign you've worked on, I would love to hear some examples of, you know campaigns that you think are really winning, strategies that are really winning, whether it's a particular ad, particular collection, particular brand Yeah, yeah yeah. And this goes to, I think the idea that has come up a few times of making sure that you've got a real insight about the audience that you're looking to reach that is in fact differentiated from most others you could pluck out to engage them in a way that's insightful. So in this case, it's a brand in the baby category. And we we were just kind of having a kickoff conversation and we realized that when it comes to things like baby showers and other kinds of activities that couples who are preparing to have a child might go through They're just less common with queer folks because we have fewer kids. We're not as frequently going to these kinds of events And so next came and this was a little personal with me of like, I wouldn't know what to give as a gift for a baby shower. Like how expensive should it be? Should it be fun? Should it be silly? Should it be functional? especially if there's no, know aif gift guide or similar. And so thus was born this sort of insight that We could play with the idea that queer folks may just have less familiarity with some of these traditions and tropes that have been very kind of straight for so, so, so long and lean into the fact that product or service of the partner could be a really nice way to get around potential lack of familiarity with these behaviors. You know, not that we're all like this, but again, I'm just maybe speaking personally. Well, what I love about that too is I don't feel like it's necessarily unique to a queer experience. I feel like I know plenty of straight men in their thirties and forties who have no idea what to bring to a baby shower' gender orientation. So maybe it's more gender than orientation. Yeah. but I love that because it's talking to a particular community, sure. you've have it grounded in the sort of like history and cultural and knowledge there, but it's also just like funny on its face if you're a person who moves through the world and has different life experiences And to your point, it's not like quQeer men and straight men have zero overlap in their worlds and their behaviors, right? I mean, that to your point, I think that's a really good point of you're always gonna be reaching people beyond your immediate target, whether it's allies or clueless straight guys who might happen to see the content on their girlfriend's phone and be like, o I kind of resonate with this house surprising It happens. Well, that's actually a great segue. Something that I literally cannot stop looking at or talking about is this year's Levi's Pride Collection. Have you seen this? I did. ye. I don't know how you feel about it. I think it's gorgeous For those who haven't seen it yet, the collection was inspired by queer motorcycle clubs, which Levi describes as the community protectors who became symbols of strength, safety, and solidarity. And what I actually think is even cooler about this is Lev' is headquartered in San Francisco and has been showing up for the queer community there for years and years. This didn't just come out of nowhere But I literally can't stop looking at this. I need to buy something. I believe the tras are already sold out. But off course Yeah, yeah. But it's like they did a really cool job storytelling here that it speaks to me as a straight woman where I'm just like, wow, I actually just love this aesthetic, you know I am so with you, Melissa. And I think you just said something really, really important is we think that when we're trying to reach a certain particular community that the residence begins and ends at that community's walls. like When we see something that's really awesome, even if you're not part of that cultural community, you get like tons of respect for that. L you just get excited about it and things. and I feel the same way about about Lvi, and it's funny, like, since this is a podcast, I guess you probably can't see me. but I'm kind of like a nerd, middle aged white guy. So like I definitely would never be decked out in Viker clothes. but I have an affinity for that. I think it's just so cool. I was looking at this I'm like I If I wore these, I would just look a little silly, but do I think they're cool? Oh my God, yes. And I do wear a lot of Levi's products. so you know Oarchingly it works quite well with me. but no year on year, they they're really they're great storytellers and this fits in there. This is where like pride for them isn't a one and like they may do an annual pride campaign, but it's not O and doneone of their engagement, like since the eighties since, you know, where is their inclusion? San Francisco. It's who they are, whether it's their employees, their marketing, how they show up, where they show up, what they do. They're great American storytellers and they're telling great American stories. And I think the stories of like kind of that San Francisco gay biker You know, culture is an Awesome American story that I adore and like mad respect for that And you know we've talked a little bit today about companies also showing up internally. And per Levi's own company history, that in nineteen ninety two, they became the first Fortune five hundred company to offer health benefits to unmarried domestic partners. And you think about what that probably meant in nineteen ninety two and everything that was going on, that, and I'm just like, wow, that is someone showed up internally and now they get to do things like make gorgeous leather vests and fringe skirts that I am eyeing and wondering when I'll be able to pull off know what and where I'll have the opportunity to pull that off. Something I would add to that too, just because I think it's increasingly important in this day and age when your profession and your personal life are for so many people intertwined. And it's also just The world of work is being totally tossed on its head in a million different ways Imagine, like you said, being a queer employee in ' ninety three, ninety four and knowing this about the company you work for in a world where You might not even be out because you're like afraid to be We've heard stories from sort of through the grapevine style stories of clients that were active twenty, thirty years ago of things like peopleeople coming in from the factory floor to the corporate offices to thank a brand manager on a brand that was doing LGBTQ marketing because It was just so shocking to this person who happened to see it in some context and was like, that's my company. That's the company I work for. And some of them weren't out at work because like I said, they were literally on the factory floor or other corporate folks who maybe were just getting their LGBTQ employee resource groups started. I mean, there are very, very real positive consequences, lif saving consequences, potentially that these things can have within companies. and as companies look to recruit and retain the best and the brightest, these sorts of external enngagements and representation will only become more important. I think Matt hit on something really important and being the probably the oldest person in the room. So I was two years out of school in nineteen ninety two, right? And so my first job, I absolutely would have been fired if I was out in the workplace. And I was working in a place that Tod would seem just rather normal. wasn't particularly homophobic. It's just that every place was homophobic. So you have to understand the gravity of that situation that Levi's,, when they took that stand. But just in general, like how many headlines have we seen across our LinkedIn feeds and things like that of like advice to be bold, be brave. you know, everyverybody wants a brand to be bold and be brave U And those are the brands that win and those are the brands that get remembered, yet very few brands are ever actually able to deliver on that or once in a while they can deliver. It takes guts, it takes buy in from the very top, but here's an opportunity, right? If you are a brand where an outsized portion of your consumer or your customers represent our LGBTQ identifying. Or maybe it's LGBTQ plus tons of people probably like you, Melissa that are super all about equality That's probably an important opportunity for you to speak to them very directly and be a little bit braver to be memorable and to be remembered versus a sea of sameness or quQuiet. And who remembers that? So I think like Levi's was bold in ' ninety two. I think they reinvent themselves every year since. And I think that's a challenge for brands is to like marketing is fun and it's a creative art and we love it. So why don't we want to be as interesting as we possibly can be and being bold for some brands is a really smart strategic move. It's not for everybody and You can define bold in different ways for different categories for different brands. but there's definitely a lesson there. There's a reason why so many articles are written about being bold in marketing Well, I think that is a perfect note to wrap up this conversation on and a challenge to any brands listening as they think through know June and beyond of what it means to show up for communities and your customers Thank to Manello, Matt Wagner, thank you so much for getting culturally hety with me on the mododern Retail podcast. Thank you so much, our pleasure. Thank you Thank you for listening to this episode of the Modern Retail Podcast, a show by Digit A Media. If you haven't already, please subscribe and head to Apple Podcast to leave us a review and a rating. If you want more from modern Rail, you can find us at modernreetail. co. You can find me, senior reporter Melissa Daniels on LinkedIn and Blue Sky And you can also subscribe to our LinkedIn newsletter at the mododern R Tale profile. We'll see you next week