The Ongoing Fight for Accountability

Summer is here. At Orderly Meds, we know this time is a reminder that life is full of new beginnings. Whether you're celebrating the nice weather, starting a new chapter, planning a vacation, or simply looking ahead to what's next, this season can be the perfect time to invest in yourself and your home If you've struggled with weight loss and are curious about GLP one medications, orderly Meds can help you learn about your options Through a simple virtual process, you can connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether treatment may be appropriate for you. Getting started is fast, convenient, and happens online from the comfort of home. This summer, consider a new approach to feeling your best Visit orderlymeds d. com slash podcast and learn more. That's orderlymeds d. com slash podcast. orrderlymeds. com slash podcast Because every new season is an opportunity to take the next step forward Compounded medications are not FDA approved, eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary see website for details. This is a global production. I'm going to ask you to leave I'm going to ask you to leave the studio You cannot be present for the conversation that we now need to have Okay I've never had to ask anyone to leave the studio before So we are now in this bizarre situation where we have an empty chair speaking for Sarah because she is not allowed to talk about the book She is not allowed to do interviews about the book. She is not allowed to hold the book. She is not allowed to be in an airport where the book is on sale. She is not allowed to be anywhere near the bookstore on her street where there happens to be her book for sale How can that make sense to say to somebody, you can't go to an airport where your book might be sold? Absurd is one way of putting it, you know It's shameful. So what is this This is an attempt to punish someone who spoke the truth The idea is to erode your life. Meta The owner of Facebook is one of the most powerful organizations in the world They have more money than many nation states, more influence than entire governments. So why have they gone after a woman? who wrote a book. I've lived in the complexity for many, many years and I think, but there are moments that I try and capture throughout these stories where like it's not close. you know? L if a thirteen year old girl is feelailing worthless, like don't target don't target her with a beauty ad. L if if there's a riot going on, like Make sure you have a way to take down the stuff that is creating the riot that's killing people. Like I don't think these are things where it's like kind of a hard decision to do That's Sarah Wyn Williams. Let's call her a whistleblower. She's actually a former Facebook employee and author of Careless People, the inside story of the company she knows Shortly after she gave me that interview Facebook called those comments defammatory It slapped her with a lawsuit. fromrom that moment on, she's been unable to promote discuss or even appear alongside her own book She's also been unable to talk about the lawsuit itself Last week, she hit back suing Meta over its attempt to silence her It's the only way she can tell the world what happened. And today she's here back with us in the studio. to the news agents So. the news agents It is not easy to do an interview with somebody who has been sued into silence. Today will sound a bit unusual, but bear with us because we think this is an important story to tell and we'll find a way to tell it Carefully and without causing Sarah more harm than she already has Sarah Wyin Williams is joined in the studio here by Amy Wallace, who co authored Virginia Ge Frey's memoir, Nobody's Girl. Now these stories have more in common than you might at first realize. It is the same story of women being silenced by powerful elites. by money. by intimidation by lawyers, by the suggestion they are liars. Virginia was young Por troubled when she was abused by Jeffrey Epstein Sarah W Williams successful, grown up financially secure when she was shut down Silencing has been used as a weapon against each, a way of exerting maximum damage But last month The authors were joint recipients of the Freedom to Publish Prize at the British Book Awards It is the only time that Sarah has spoken in public since she appeared here on that interview over a year ago So let's listen a bit of her speech from that night The people Virginia told us about had grown rich and powerful in the certainty that they would never be held to account So they deployed every weapon that money can buy against a woman whose only weapon was her voice They tried to exhaust her to make the cost of speaking so high. So relentless So total that eventually the spirit gives out before the truth does But here's the strange thing When you try that hard to silence a woman whoo is telling the truth, you announce to the whole world that the truth must be very dangerous indeed Now let me say something about what it costs to witness and to write It can cost everything It is a speech, Sarah about silencing women It's also a speech about power And it's a speech about what the powerful do when when there is a counter narrative to their power, which Virginia in her book differently provided and It's also a speech about bearing witness about When you live in times where which are dominated by these powerful networks, these powerful elites It can often feel like there isn't much you can do. You can often feel powerless and And at those times, I think there was There is powerower and bearing witness And in speaking the things that are not normally spoken And Virgin you did that? And a responsibility Yes, a hard responsibility. Yes You also make the case The humble book itself. And there's an amazing bit in your speech where you say, you can't delete You can't remove it from a social media algorithm. You can't take it out of public circulation. Books have to carry on existing. They are sort of an analogue testament to the truth Yeah, I mean, I say there's an analog tenacity to books because We live in a time where everything is digital. It can be disappeared You know, somethinghing a story you got to look up is gone. But with a book, you know, there's a reason banned books matter. You can't disappear a book. And I think We see examples of that, Virginia's book, obviously, but Giseelle Pelico. I mean there are women who understand only way to tell this story is through a book Is the work to publish those who are facing threats, facing intimidation, facing silence, getting harder I worry it is. I think there are, you know increasing I think the legal system is being weaponized. You could see that with Virginia, the legal system was definitely weaponized And my worry is that It means that there are stories, important stories that will never find the page And if the legal system is being weaponized, that suggests there isn't enough pushback from states, from governments. and what is going on? I mean, do governments have a responsibility to take on those who are doing The silencing Absolutely. And I think there's a lot more that can be done I mean, in the UK, Louise Hague had some important legislation on NDAs last year. but slaps in this country. I mean, there is a lot There are a lot of stories that are not being told, and when we wonder how we get to a moment where there is so much power concentrated in a few individuals We have to look at some of these legal measures, government measures that could unlock these stories. A lot us, a lot of journalists, a lot of reporters in the states are finding themselves facing legal lawsuits from the Trump administration as a way of sort of shutting down the work that we might do. just explain to us the effect that that has if you are a broadcaster or a writer or rep pucer and you're facing somebody of enormous powerower, enormous significance trying to shut you down. What does that do to your life, your work your ability to Tell you a story Well Emily, I think you're being very brave even having this conversation I think We miss out on so much when people don't have the courage to push back and try and have the conversations and I think it's beyond books, it's beyond writing. It's sort of the political moment. the moment that we are living in is being defined and by how power is centralizing and The weapons, you know, the best weapons against it are simple. The people having a voice. The media reporting on that They're the investigations, they' are the sort of things that are being hollowed out in all these different ways. and I think People feel powerless, but there are ways to push back by consuming media, by funding media and by having journalists who are brave enough to tell the stories that are hard to tell. Sarah, there's a lot of stuff that we are not Speaking about, we are haaving a very odd discussion right now And there is no other way of saying that, except by reading out a statement from your lawyer, which I'm going to do now. so that our listeners, our audience understands what is going on in this room As a result of a lawsuit And Met's aggressive enforcement. this is Meta, Facebook. This is the lawyer writing to us now. I must ask that you refrain from engaging in any conversation about meta Almas Wyin Williams book during her appearance on the podcast appreciate the absurdity. implying an order directed at Miss Win Williams to constrain the ability of members of the press to engage in speech at the time and place of their choosing I wish to emphasize that this absurdity partart of the argument we're currently advancing in the courts in the United States to try and get the order lifted But until we can do that, this request is necessary So I actually can't believe I'm saying this, but in order for us to have the conversation now I'm going to ask you to leave. I'm going to ask you to leave the studio because You cannot be present for the conversation. that we now need to have Okay I've never had to ask anyone to leave the studio before, and I've certainly never had to ask anyone to remove themselves because They were facing legal action from an immensely powerful company that has managed to dictate what they can listen to or what they can say, they can write what they can talk about Amy Wallace is here, you were the joint winner with Sarah Wyin Williams. and clearly, you have been at the heart of Virginia's story, Virginia's memoir, Nobody's Girl and Virginia's silence. We're going to come ono that, Amy, but just P this piece together now What What the fuck is going on, frankly, because This doesn't feel Normal. Yes, the facts of the matter are that Sarah Lyn Williams, a former Facebook executive, wrote an amazing that is, in my view, an indictment of what u some of the policies. that Facebook, which started off as a very idealistic company has turned into as they have amassed money and power She wrote that book, Careless People. and yes, it won The freedom to publish awward alongside Virginia Robert Dufre's book Nobody's girl A at the British Book Awards And Facebook's response to her writing this incredible book both well written and full of insight from the inside of this powerful company is that they have said in press releases She defamed them but notably They have never filed a defamation claim And what does that tell us? That tells us that they don't want to argue a defamation claim because they do not have the goods to prove that she has gotten anything wrong So instead they have put up press releases that say She is in the wrong but they have not brought legal action saying that she has actually made any mistakes in her book, that she has a single untruth in her book. If they had one they would file a defamation claim and they would go after her Instead what they've sought to do is to silence her So we are now in this bizarre situation where we have an empty chair spepeaking for Sarah because she is not allowed to talk about the book She is not allowed to do interviews about the book. She is not allowed to hold the book She is not allowed to be in an airport where the book is on sale She is not allowed to be anywhere near the bookstore on her street where there happens to be her book for sale What is this This is an attempt to punish someone who spoke the truth in my view And obviously, I come to that with the baggage of having worked with Virginia Roberts Stufreay, who faced over many years exactly the same kind of intimidation relentless you know, treatment that some might even call harassment where Your life is turned in it's turned upside down Um I know in Sarah's case, for example you know, they They serve her with a subpoena at her home in front of her children on the street corner, not at work The idea is Certainly in Virginia's case, and that's why I resonate so much with what Sarah is going through. The idea is to erode your life not just with legal fees that cost a huge amount, which Now, you know, Sarah has now countersued last week to try to get her story out there. and my understanding of what that countersuit will do for her, is it will allow her to describe in in a formal Setting What her life has been like since Facebook has started to do this to her has tried to silence her. So she's going to be allowed to talk about in this courtroom setting, not in any interview with you what it's been like to be targeted, to be followed on the street, which meta Facebook. acknowledges in their filings that they are watching her, that they follow her, that they take pictures of her in every setting to make sure she's not anywhere near a book is the allegation. How sorry, how can that be legal. I mean, how can that make sense to say to somebody you can't go to an airport where your book might be sold. you can't I mean, they they haven't put that in words, but that is the implication that she feels scared to go to a bookshop on her road. She feels scared to be in the presence of her own I mean, what happens if you sit down on a train next to somebody who's reading the book. How Is that is that normal? I mean, there's a reason why her lawyer's statement includes the word absurdity. It's absurd I mean, a book exists in the world. She wrote it, she stands behind it. You know that they were very careful before they printed it. I know how careful the publisher of Virginia's book was you know, you make sure that you're not left open by a careless mistake or that you've somehow, by accident or on purpose you know, included in untruth and She She published the book, she was ready to stand behind it and defend it. And instead of allowing her to defend it they have tried to silence her alt togetherether. And absurd is one way of putting it, you know It's shameful It's it's shameful So an arbitrator in the US. ruling said MetAa would suffer immediate An irreparable loss. They have said it's false and defirammatory. it should never have been published And but the My understanding is that the arbitrator said, didn't that wasn't the final ruling on the matter. Its an inter. You know, it's basically Facebook has made the case that they could be damaged by this. We need to send it on and consider it further. So in the meantime, Sarah can you cannot speak of it. You cannot promote it. I think that's where we are And so I think the importance of Sarah's countersuit is to say and I'm standing up for my right to do it And I also would like to tell you what's been done to me in the interim period Um And that's really important that the only way she can actually explain publicly what has happened is through the courts. She's not allowed to talk about them at all She's not allowed to talk about her book. Yeah. She's not allowed to talk about So there's a silencing of what she knows both at her of her experience at Facebook when she worked there for years which is in the book And then there's also a sort of you know, silencing of her voice about what this past year or so has been like. bringing of the lawsuit by Sarahwn Williams is her chance to say thats just my understanding. That's my understanding. And of course, we should say, you can still buy the book. you can still read the book, Cless people because as she said, this is an analogue thing in existence and for sale in the bookshops. We'll be back in a moment talking to Amy about how Virginia used the courts to Galen Maxwell Summer is here. At Orderly Meds, we know this time is a reminder that life is full of new beginnings. Whether you're celebrating the nice weather, starting a new chapter, planning a vacation, or simply looking ahead to what's next This season can be the perfect time to invest in yourself and your home. If you've struggled with weight loss and are curious about GLP one medications, orderly Meds can help you learn about your options Through a simple virtual process, you can connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether treatment may be appropriate for you. Getting started is fast, convenient, and happens online from the comfort of home. This summer, consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit orrderlymeds d. com slash podcast to learn more? That's orderlymeds d. com slash podcast. orrderlymeds d. com slash podcast. Because every new season is an opportunity to take the next step forward Compounded medications are not FDA approved, elligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary see website for details Amy, you will recognize How of suing just to be able to get your voice back because that was exactly what Virginia did and it was the same question of defamation, right? Well, specifically, I mean, she she filed many she was involved in many many cases, but the one that is sort of an clear echo here is that I Gillland Maxwell when Virginia went public with her account of how Gleen Maxwell had been involved in the sex trafficking scheme. Um, called her a liar called Virginia Lar. And Virginia then brought a defamation suit Facebook hasn't done that But she said, you are calling me a liar and I'm not. I'm not a liar I told the truth and The case, you know, there were huge numbers of depositions taken Um which allowed Virginia to speak about what had happened to her horrible sexual abuse that had happened to her as a way of proving that she was telling the truth And ultimately that case settles. Gillen Maxwell pays her some undisclosed amount, but to make the case go away. becausecause they did not want that case to go to court, because there would be so much discovery about what actually happened. So how instrumental was that in putting Gallem Maxel behind bars? It was key particularly because Gillen was deposed several times Um as part of that case And I believe that prosecutors poured over what she had said in those depositions and it was because of those depositions and what she said under oath U they were able to bring the prosecution that ultimately put her in jail. I mean, a defamation case is a civil case, right? It's civil suit I mean, I guess the point is Virginia went to the place that she could go to because she wasn't getting helpel from the legal system from the criminal system And part of that is about statutes of limitations, which are complex, particularly for victims of child sexual abuse. You know They're different in every locality, they're different in different states, different countries and tyypically, I think the average is that the average person who is abused sexually as a child. if they come forward at all, which most people do not It takes them until they're about forty years old. And a lot of the statutes of limitations are much shorter than that that you have to file within ten years. You have to file within twelve years you're only maybe twenty years old at that point if you've been abused at eight years old. So most people don't get to the point of financial independence of emotional maturity, of having had enough therapy that they can muster the courage to take on whoever has hurt them in the past they don't get there until after the statute of limitations has run out. And that was actually something that Virginia really felt strongly about wanting to her next after the book came out, her next cus was going to be on trying to remove statutes And it is It's called Virginias law and It is. It hasn't passed yet. Congress. It hasn't passed yet.. So let me talk about where we are You and I first spoke Lost Yeah last autumn when your book came out within days We saw Prince Andrew's title removed. We saw him essentially having to leave Windsor We then saw all the pressure brought to bear on Donald Trump to release the Epsteian files, we saw the vote that he was in danger of losing until he changed his mind. And then we had this huge drop of three million or so documents over December and January with the release of the Eppsene files that people thought would somehow Bring monumental change or closure or conviction And now here we are in July. and I don't know if you can say genuinely that The world has changed all prorosecutions have been brought or the law feels Like it has teeth. How do you feel about everything? Yeah, it's such a complicated I mean, I see some signs for hope, but it is, again, the word the only word is shameful that First of all, not all the Epsteeen files have been released, onlyly about half U separate and apart from that. There are allegations by many survivors in the files of having been trafficked What does that mean? That means that it wasn't just Jeffrey Epstein who was abusing them. It was that There was another person or people who had abused them Those allegations are in the files and those allegations should be followed up on with investigation and, if possible, prosecution. undernderstanding that statutes of limitations kick in and understanding that you can't always prosecute and you don't have enough evidence, understanding that people are innocent until proven guilty what the survivors are telling me, and that's been one of the great um gifts to me of sadly having to step forward in Virginia's place to some degree but I've gotten to know a lot of these other women who are so brave Um And and and they their sense is that those allegations are not being followed up on because they are not being asked Who are these men? and what was your experience with them? When you say they're not being asked by the Justice Department, Department of Justice, or the FBI They've given their initial statements to the FBI, those those statements in many cases are available in the public public Epstein file that is now available for all of us to read but nothing is moving forward and beyond that actcting A atttorney General Todd Blanche, who took over for attttorney General Pambondi, who lost her job U about to be confirmed onene way or another in the next in the coming weeks, I believe the fifteenth of July. He has made several public statements saying Esentially nothing to see here. These Epstein files have taken up way too much of our public discourse. We are done We we are not releasing the rest of them and we are done talking about them. And he And then he said very disingenuous. I would even go so far as to say gaslighting things like If any of the survivors want to come forward and make a credible allegation, I mean,' absolutely, I' never say, never, we'll never'll follow up on it. They've already done that And what that statement does is it gives the public who hears that statement the impression that the women haven't said anything yet. They've said it, they've said it, they've said it. Maria Farmer made her first allegation in nineteen ninety six, that's thirty years ago And Virginia went public in twenty eleven. That's fifteen years ago. And there are Some people estimate fourteen hundred womomen and girls who were hurt So how many perpetrators well estimation? You know Who knows? Hundreds all over the world So What are they scared of? Amy Tob Blanche, Pam Bondi The Department of Justice. what are they actually scared of doing here You know, obviously, I don't know the answer. I'm not inside their heads I don't I'm not privy to any inside discussion Um, But Congresswoman, now former Cgresswoman, Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican has said that when she she was really an advocate for releasing the Epstein files and that she had a conversations directly with President Trump about This has to be released. And he said something to her like, and I'm paraphrasing you know This will hurt friends of mine And so If you can take that to the bank and I don't have any independent verification that that conversation took place, but if you take that to the bank and go, okay, so it's protecting rich and powerful people, which is how it relates to the woman who's no longer sitting here in this chair is that This is part of a broader Truth in our broader culture, not just in the UK or the US that elites, meaning people who either have a lot of power or a lot of money or both are playing by a different set of rules than the rest of us And I do think that that separate and apart from sexual trafficking, sexual you, separate and apart from from Virginia's experience I think that's why the three of us were sitting here together earlier because that's