The legal and political consequences for Farage

Fanatics Fest NYC returns to the Javbit Center july sixteenth through the nineteenth for the biggest sports event weekend of the summer. S stars like LeBron James, Tom Brady, Eron Judge, Sehn Cina, Jaylin Brunson, Serena Williams and hundreds more. feeaturing more than five hundred athletes and celebrities, live shows. Eclusive merch, rare collectibles, Sanatics games with two million dollars in prizes, a full tailgate zone, and New York City's largest indndoorth FFA World Cup final watchatch party. Fanaticsfest is the world's number one spports fan festival. Get your tickets now at fanaticsfest dot com. That's fanaticsfest dot com d This is a global production. Donald Trump placed a call to FIFA president Janian Fantino. It is so ugly. It is so reprehensible that that red card should be rescinded to allow Balagan of the team tonight. It was absolutely pusillanymous on the part of Infantino to go, Oh yes, Donald. Let's look at it and we'll try and sort this out. What do you have here? You have Trump deciding that he has to respond as emperor. It's about politics.' about crrude muscles Donald Trump just throwing his weight around Where does he start and where does this end now Can we overturn it or not overturn it What is not something what is going on? Pople seek to pursue because like you say, there's surely a chance. Where do you draw the line? Yeah, whereere to draw the line? This is the question that I ask, I have no answer to that. Where does this end now? Do we appeal if a yellow card is not a yellow card? Do we think it's not a red card? or who thinks it? Where does it start and where does this end is? 's my question. I don't have answer Could Harry maybe ask Donald Trump to Maybe That's a good starting point. That's the England manager, Thomas Toull talking about red cards and match bandans He's not really talking about what happened overnight, that magnificent match where England beat Mexico. He's talking about another red card and he's talking about the involvement of one Donald Trump who magically made a match ban disappear Has this World Cup just turned into a playground for Donald Trump Welcome to The News agents The news agents It's Mayis. It's John in Mexico City And we are going to tell you about the dirty side of this World Cup in a moment because things have taken a turn for the worse by the intervention of one of our friends in the White House, that to come. But honestly, if you wanted to get a sense of just how powerful a national moment and a sporting moment can be. you were just in the right place at the right time last night, soops, I feel like actually we've been talking all night already I know. Look, the Aztecca stadium is like nothing I've ever been to before. I mean, it's vast, it's huge. But the noise was utterly deafening. and when the Mexicans sang their national anthem with such gusto of people crying while they were singing it. It was really beautiful to behold. and likewise, when we sang You know, God save the king. E England fan was up there the top of their voices. and the noise inside the stadium was deafening. and it was all about what was best in football. This was a breathless encounter by two teams quite evenly matched It ends up three two are sending off two penalties And extra time that went on for eleven minutes that felt like eleven hours and honestly I felt I had aged about eleven years. And you know, all of this in this hostile cauldron of a place the Aztecca U And the English were so outnumbered And yet the game went on and it was like a siege at the end. where, you know from history, the siege of Mafiking When you know your soldiers are running out of ammunition, there are only a few of them left, but you hold off the attackers. And that's what England did last night. with Mexico City and at the end of the game, It was a really fantastic atmosphere. and that was all that was best about the World Cup. All that you love about the World Cup was on show in the Aztecca last night And Mexico have never lost a World Cup game in that stadium. I mean, I know there was a lot of nervousness seeing how defensively we had to to play as you say, it was this sort of wall that came up, but it was like every single team member was there Abssolute best in that what was it one hundred one hundred and five minutes in the end, wasn't it last night Yeah, it was. I thought it was absolutely amazing. I thought that every single player. I mean, you know, everyone talks about the superstars of Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham I mean, and they were brilliant. You know, Jude Belling was extraordinary I everyvery player really body and soul into it and you know, I kind of and also Thomas Tookool change the system Suddenly there were five defenders. He had the you, we talk about Kistama about the fact that he couldn't adjust his styles And that was the accusation about Gareth Southgate when he was deemed a manager And with Thomas Hookle, he just saw what needed to happen And you know, changed the formation when we were down to ten men and it was three, two, and we were clinging on by our fingertips. for dear life. There was one very amusing moment where two when we were till up and we were feeling very relaxed Mexico suddenly scored. and I was with a group of England fans and suddenly, we are showered in beer. peoplee with their beer cups. And so once Mexico got the penalty when it was, you know, we findly thought Christ almighty, we know what we've got to do now, get our coats on, put our kagls on, put our hoods up. and we all huddled together and sure enough another shower of beer came all over us, but we were okay. I probably' smell I probably don't smell that great right now. probably this shirt does need to go in the washing machine Interestingly When Thomas Doul was giving the press conference afterwards, one of the questions was about our player that was Krancer that was sent off with a red card And the reason he was asked about it was not just the sort of comings and goings of all the sort of the disciplinary action in a game, the fact that overnight, one of the most egregious interceptions in any World Cup took place. and that is from what we understand from reporting via the New York Times that Donald Trump Placed a call to FIFA's presresident, Janny Fantino After the game between America and Bosnia on Thursday night in which an American player, Baligan was given a red card, which means technically he would not have been able to play in a fixture with Belgium tonight Now, miraculously, after four nights of thinking about it FIFA suddenly decided that that red card should be rescinded suspended, magiced away, I think is the technical phrase to allow Baligan of the team Tonight And this has left An extraordinarily nasty stench. over a World Cup that up to this point was going fantastically well It is so ugly, it is so reprehensible The idea that an elected politician tells the head of a football authority which players can and cannot play on the field It was absolutely out of order for Donald Trump to have made the call to Infantino and it was absolutely pusillanimous on the part of Infantino to go Oh yes, Donald Let's look at it and we'll try and sort this out Honestly, in the stadium last night, as I said, it was the very best of what football can offer on the page And they flashed up a picture of Infantino and suddenly Mexican and England fans are booing in unison because no one can defend somethingomething like that. it's just a gross interference. It's absolutely improper. What on earth is he doing? trying to kind of influence this. and it's it's been the law in football for decades now that if you are sent off, it's a mandatory you know, you're banned from the next game or the next three games or whatever it happens to be. And so for Donald Trump to do this means But this isn't about sport anymore And maybe we're naive and thinking it's the beautiful game. It's about politics. it's about Trude muscle And Donald Trump just throwing his weight around an infantino who we know We know is not the greatest is he Just to put this in context, on Thursday night, when there was all the Hohar about the Red card, FIFA sources said after the match, there was no recourse for an appeal. they actually cited Article sixty six point four of its disciplinary code. And the irony is, I think, that we had just stopped talking about corruption in this World Cup. We just stopped talking about the exorbitant prices or the racial bans or the uneasy smell of America being on the make and trying to get the FIFA Peace Prize last December to sort of tie in that wonderful relationship. We just started to concentrate on the actual game, on the actual football, on the actual magnificence of the players. and then this comes. And if you talk to the White House or if you ask them for the official statement, they will say, Oh no Trump just wanted to understand the rules better in inverted commerce. just wanted to know what had caused Balligan to be suspended. It's all about understanding the rules. And it just so happens that there were others in his administration who also needed to understand the rules better. because after Trump's first involvement, as reported by the New York Times, reports have suggested there were multiple calls, including commerce seecretary, Howard Lutnick, Oh, is that a man who deals with money by any chance And Andrew Giuliani, the executive director of the White House World Cup Task Force, who recruited lawyers to also assist with US. Soccer's appeal against the decision So Infantino gets the call from the president and then finds what? an entire task force on his back as well, saying we're just trying to understand it. And sure enough, on Sunday evening, they suddenly found another part of the disciplinary code, which is Article twenty seven, which allowed them to Well They haven't exactly destroy the red card, they've just kind of left it hanging aboutb a year over this poor guy's head And actually, what's astonishing about this is From the sounds of it, none of the players, none of the US players even knew what was going on. They didn't know about the call, they didn't know the decision was up. they thought They'd kind of come round to imagining that they weren't playing with their teammate, this sort of key USA striker And suddenly he's back in and they're having to justify it presumably to every other team and all the other players that they meet now Everyone is everyone in the world of football tonight is going to want Belgium to give the US a mighty kicking, you know to four nil, five nil, six nil And I do feel sorry for the players because I think it's put them in an invidious position where they're suddenly the bad guys in the world of sport. I I would love to know What Mauricio Pocertino thinks about this, the US. team manager who, you know, formally Married Mar managed, you know, Paris Sain Germin managed my team Tottenham. and is a brilliant guy and he's been put in a difficult position. Look, there were question marks about whether this was A soft Inverted comm' red card that had been delivered to Ballager Let the football authorities, let the referees decide, o no, maybe we've gone too far and rescind it. That's happened before. But no, it's Donald Trump's intervention that has made the difference. and this belief that Donald Trump has that he has tootal impunity Total unfettered power that we now have, as America celebrates its two hundred fiftieth birthday And it's manifesting itself in the most unlikeliest of places that we're now talking about This footballer that Donald Trump, I guarantee you had never heard of until last week, using it as the latest place where he can flex his muscles and he can make other people to his will. And I just think that's going to turn everyone against the United States as a result, know the football team as a result of all of this. Yeah, I mean, without getting to West wing about it, this week, you know, that the whole two hundred fiftieth anniversary is all about a celebration of throwing off the shackles of Tranny It's about independence from tyrants, independence from kings, independence from sort of arbitrators of other people's lives. and suddenly What do you have here? You have Trump deciding that he has to respond as emperor, that he has to respond as king. He is not just content with being the US president. He has to be the king of FIFA two. And I mean, the ultimate irony, honestly, is to go back to Seth Blatter's tweet that came out this morning. A man who has not been, shall we say known for his squeaky, clean approach at the top of FIFA's governing body. But even Step Blatter has tweeted, Red cards are not overturned by political phone calls. They are overturned by rules. I'm going to read this with a straight face. They are overturned by rules, evidence, and independent bodies. If a U.S. president intervenes with the FIFA president and a player suddenly cleared before a World Cup knockout match, the question is unavoidable ovadis FIFA. I mean, is that Blatter saying there are limits to which even I would not have gone That is That is from somebody who we thought pretty tarnished reputation And he is now calling out his successor Well, look, even the head of know European football, UEFA have issued a statement In similarly condemnatory terms, it was unprecedented, incomprehensible, and unjustifiable U This has happened apparently before And In nineteen sixty two Brazil had a player sent off and there was A very strong sense then that there had been political interference to try and get that kind of. But there was no then in nineteen sixty two, it wasn't a mandatory suspension after a red card. So it was very murky that this was This is in plain daylight. Everyone is reporting it. I mean, you listed all the people that have got involved. I've also seen reporting that the Department of Justice got involved. I mean, the DOJ. Ringing up Infantino and ringing up FIFA's lawyers and saying you better do this. You better do this. And I just think. I mean, do you remember the story Yeah, Do you remember the story that they told of the Argentina World Cup final in nineteen seventy eight when apparently and it's very hard to find actual documentary evidence of this, but apparently Kissinger and Argentina's presresident Vidella popped into the Peruvian changing room just before the match began and said, Peru, you guys won't make it through. you know you're out anyway to all intents and purposes. Please could you fix the match to allow Argentina to win. Now Peru has denied that, the players have denied that conversation. but this was the sort of the theory that hung over that whole victory for Argentina as they hosted the World Cup. And I mean, what is amazing is you're absolutely right. That was behind closed doors, right? We never actually got to hear that from the horse's mouth. Now we are basically just enumerating the people who have been involved in helping overturn this decision, including Trump, who then actually tweeted out trruth socialed out this morning, Ill thank you for making the right decision. He's not even pretending that this isn't about him You've seen that MAGA video that was put out where you see the referee brandaging the red card to Balligan, and then Balligan brandishing this a card of his own with Donald Trump on it. Like, you know, your Donald Trump out Trumps's your red card Top Trumps drew literally Yeah, literally. And there you have it I think this is You know, the World Cup, we had talked about all the things as you say, Emily, that could have possibly gone wrong with this World Cup And infantino, you know, behaving like the emperor that he thinks he is and Donald Trump, you know, putting a lot of people off And the World Cup was going really, really well. and there were big crowds. just got this. I think it really tarnishes it It's interesting, isn't it? I mean what happens if a Belgian player gets sent off tonight? does the king of Belgium have to call Infantino? You know, And and if there is a sort of disagreement, I mean, I was listening to this Norwegian hostort of football pundits say, lookook, we started with the rules in football, then we brought on the referee, then we brought in VA and now we're at presidents. And where does this end with like the Supreme Court? You know, it's like the rules have just been ripped up in plain sight of this whole tournament. And I don't see how America can progress now. I mean, genuinely, what happens if they do beat Belgium? What happens if they are in the final? What happens if they win the tournament and all anyone's actually thinking is Well, That was an outcome that wasn't even on the cards until the president intervened But Donald Trump would think that was worth it. You win at any costs. there are no rules. It's a dirty fight. You don't play by the Queensby rules. You punch below the belt, always. And I think that that is what you're seeing in all of this. I mean, what's to stop Donald Trump ringing up? you know, if Belgium do win tonight Donald Trump I mean, you know, it sounds preposterous, but the the whole conversation we're having, Emily, is utterly preposterous. What's to stop him saying, Well, there was an unfair match because the Belgians did this or the Belgians did that. I demand that the match should be replayed And what's infantina going to do then? I mean, I'm sure he would say no, but the fact that we can even have conversation. Yeah Yeah, it's just the madness that has descended. I suppose the other thing we've got to consider now that England through to the quarterfinals and playing Norway Yeah What happens to Lewis's relationship with his Norwegian wife Where does Lewis Goodall stand in all of this? Big stuff. I thought you were going to say something else. I thought you werere going say, if we need to have a red card rescinded, is it Kir Starmer or Andy Burnham? And makes the phone call to Fantina I don't think they carry much clout. Well we will be back in a moment talking about Nigel Farage and his money woes. Interesting to just compare the difference between a written constitution America has appears to get torn up whenever the will takes them, and Britain's unwritten Cstitution where we go through everything with a fine toothcomb and a parliamentary standards committee until we think we've come to an answer. Fanicspest NYC returns to the Javbit Center july sixteenth through the nineteenth for the biggest sports event weekend of the summer. S stars like LeBron James, Tom Brady, Eron Judge, John Cena, Jaylin Brunson, Serena Williams, and hundreds more. feeaturing more than five hundred athletes and celebrities, live shows. Eclusive merch, rare collectibles, Sonatics games with two million dollars in prizes. A full tailgate zone, and New York City's largest indndoorth FFA World Cup final watchatch party. Fanaticsfest is the world's number one spports fan festival. Get your tickets now at fanaticsfest dot com dot That's fanaticsfest dot com d Well, if over the weekend you have been following all the latest revelations on Nigel Farage, the money he's been receiving from, amongst others, a convicted criminal thenen the man behind some of this extraordinary reporting is Gabriel Poggrant' with us here And it was the inside invvestigations team at the Sunday Times, which broke yesterday's story on the back, we should say of the Guardian's excellent reporting on the Christopher Harbourne five million pound loan Gabriel, I know you're also froning a podcast and it's called Posh George the criminal behind Farraage. So should we just get a little window into Ph George first of all? Absolutely. I mean it can quite a difficult figure to pin down, which is by design rather than through accident. A U.S judge once described him as deceptive for subusly changing his name. It'selt withith two T's and two L's, he legally changed it have one T one L. This Cal Cotal. He flies on private jets under an alias George C., quite who George Cotral is its own own riddle, but to the extent we've been able to unravel some of his story, he come from aristocratic family. hisis mother was the daughter of the Thd Baron Manton and she dated King the future King Charles in the seventies broken off actually because she p posed Nude for Penthouse magazine. So there's lots lots of colour in her life, lots of colour. in his early life because He grew up on Mique, the Caribbean Island. He was born in Gloucestershire, raised in a cottage in rural Worcestershire and was expelled from boarding school at Mulverne College. for his involvement in gambling. and at that point the young George goes into Mfare in the sort of gy zone of London finance where Russian and Arab and English money ingle and he becomes very conversant in the ways of offshore finance and how to move money around the world and This leads him at I think the tender age of about twenty um to participate in a conspiracy where money laundering services were being advertised on the dark web And somebody said Somebody got in touch to say, I'm a drug dealer or we're a drug dealing syndicate Can you please help us launder hundreds of thousands of dollars a year And the person on the other end of the dark Web says yes, sure and let's meet at a Las Vegas hotel to discuss next steps. the person who arrives is this blonde chubby aristocrat os George gives them detailed information about how they can launder the proceeds of drug dealing U and I'll just momentarily press pause that say that A this happens, goes to he returns to London becomes very involved in Farage's innerircle. He's a volunteer at UKEP Okay, so just take us to that because this extraordinarily sort of colourful young character has not at this point met Nigel Farage. What is the moment where he where they meet, where their lives become sort of entangled. So he's got an uncle by marriage, Lord Heskorth, who's the former F one U racing owner and a, uh a UKip Here he was a defect an early defector to UK And we think through that that he may have met Farj, but essentially This is how long ago then we're talking This is around twenty fourteen And he becomes the essential Raj whisperer, so when Nigel wants a fag or he wants a pint or he needs a moment to be on his own or somebody needs to pull the chair from under the table when he's getting down for an interview like Posteor becomes that guy. So we would all have have seen here. I mean, sort of like the Gary to Selena's V Exactly. it's just everywhere Right and he has this kind of uncanny ability to read and preempt Farage which gives him this status as Nidel's man. He becomes deputy treasurer of UKip in his twenties. And the reason I I was going to pause was because He's with Farage on The day of the referendum in twenty sixteen, they go get drunk and have lunch at a restaurant in Mayfair awaiting the result And then fast forward a few months he's in America for the Republican National Cvention in Cleveland, Ohio with Farage and on their way back They're getting a connecting flight through Chicago and suddenly a phalanx of federal agents turns up to arrest Post George because Post George is his nickname by the way, my not my appellachian, but He at that point learns that the drug dealers who had been corresponding with him, who he'd met, were actually undercover U.S. agents. Okay. Farage is with the man who he's trusted for best part of sort of three years at that point When he's arrested He's convicted of wire fraud amongst other things their relationship continues. And what is the money question that we're talking about now? So you're right. So when he leaves prison He says he's going to get involved with charity work and return to education. He doesn't do that. He moves to Montenegro and becomes involved in crypto gambling and in a crypto gambling platform, which we revealed on the weekend is implicated in potential criminality. So that's what he does. Farj has gone out there to visit him But the thrust of our story on Sunday is that in the year preceding Farage's election cultural bank rolled his operation from everything from drivers and security you personal staff to the man responsible for Farages Social media out Varraage one in Clackton pretty much two years ago this week. So in the whole twelve months before that being bankrolled by the convicted criminal. That's quite right. And in addition, he also has since and prior to the election availed him of townhouse he rents near Buckingham Palace. So So let me break this down, Gabriel and I feel stupid asking this, but which part of this is illegal. Mm unparliamentary. what is rule breaking here about this arrangement? So that's a great question and one we've examined from top to bottom as you would expect us to. So I guess The ultimate objective of the Cod of conduct for MPs is to uphold democracy by maintaining the highest level of transparency And then you get the small print on what that involves. And one of the bits of small print is that in the twelve months before one selection as an MP I'm You have to declare any interest, any registterable, any a financial or non financial benefit And what it says is that there is an exemption. this is one which Farage is relying on so it's important There's an exemption for purely personal gifts. So that means a box of chocolates from husband or wife or a grandma's nister jumper for you. I mean they say they What about an aunt leaving you money in a will Things like that, that's a perfect example. And then it says that if it is it gives friends and family relatives as the example If it's not that A reasonable person would consider that your receipt of the gift relates in any way to your political activity It says disclose it. and it says, if you have any doubt it says you should think about the motive of the giver or the use to which the gift is to be put If there's any doubt, declare it. Delaring is not an admission of wrongdoing. it is It's a way of being transparent what we do If you do it, then you're in no doubt that you're in compliance with the rules So he didn't declare any of it That's right. There's one gift he declared from Cultural, which was I think about nine thousand two hundred and fifty pounds worth of support for Farage to alongside his staff and security attended a conference in a Cervative conference in Belgium in april twenty four That's the only disclosure he ever made this about this period. So if he didn't disclose it, how big a penalty is that potentially? I mean, is it just a perception of a lack of transparency or has he done something more wrong than that It's a great question. I suppose One matter which worth reflecting on is who George is because The real concern in relation to undeclared interest is is there any intersection on the Ven diagram between the circle that we might call Cotrial's life and times and interests And then Farage's circle as a politician capable of potentially in future giving effect to policy but also championing certain things. So George Cotchrell is intimately involved in platform called Tether. betet. It uses the cryptocurrency Tether which is part owned by Christopher Harborn, the man behind the five million pound undisclosed donation and he's involved in crypto presently seeking a pardon from U. S. President Donald Trump. Farage is of course close to Trump and he has championed crypto. His party hasn't published legislation on a number of things, but it has this very detailed technically color piece of proposed law about making Britain the crypto capital of the world and Farage has lobbied the Bank of England in relation to crypto. So There's no imputation from meither George has asked Farage to do anything like that Farraage has done anything For George, but the question related to the rules is might a reasonable person consider that there's anything political within this gift and might one pose questions about what's going on over here. So I think that's worth that's sort of worth setting out. And you ask about how serious this could be The actual answer is this isn't a penal code. There's no common law or legislation. It's parliament own system for policing itself So the real question is Libdems and LabBS they referred this matter to the Stards Commissioner. Daniel Greenber. if Daniel Greenbg investigates he can propose sanctions which can then be endorsed R stamped or not he's already investigating Farage over the five million pound harbourne donation. Have you had any word that he will widen his investigation now? I've got no word at all about that other than to say that It is in his hands as it were now and it I don't know if they would broaden it to include it or do something in parallel I'm but it does seem it fall into very similar territory. In some ways the territory is actually It's similar, but it's also different in a subtle but significant way, which is that Whereas the five million pound gift was just cash This was support for activity, which in some instances does I was going to say does seem to. it was squarely political. so you know, the out output on social media of this guy who forage was Cultural funded a guy who became Farag's TikTok manager, there lots of we found, which we understand were produced by this chart, which you know, we're promoting Farag's positions on Eressly political matters, immigration, European human rights law wokery, but also at times promoting reform itself, of which Farraage was at the time hon president. So your reporting today which shows that George Cottll had these reform cards, business cards suggests that can't use that claim of it being a gift from a family member or a gift from somebody very close. Well, I think it's an awkward one because I got given it by somebody who was at a semi public event with Post George and yeah, he passed them his card and it's got the reform logo and his name and then Faragej's email underneath it. I think we understand he's dished that out in the past in relation to fundraising for reform So it'et Jenit yesterday, who is there what sort of treasy sp shadow shhadow somethingas person that's right was doing the rounds and he said there is pretty much nothing to see here For Rge himselves called it an establishment stitch up. They've said there's no rule has really been broken. Yeah, no ru's been broken. It's an establishment stitchu up by a pro labour paper is essentially their position in relation to this. But on who Post George is, He says he's just a friend and he's got no role in reform. And I've heard that one before from the forerunner to reform. I remember learning that Pos George was raising money for the Brexit partarty and I asked him what he was up to years ago and he said, Well, he's gotten a role So he often said he's got no role and that helps it happens to help. it might only happen to help it. I'm not saying it's deliberate, but it certainly is convenient for the purpose of saying this wasn't a political gift or had nothing to do with politics, if he's just a friend But then we've got this piece of evidence from last year, which shows that He's presenting himself as being connected to reform, which feels like a material piece of information. Fara said he's considering legal action against you and your team Yes, he has. I must say I'm I'm none wiser as to what that means I can only say in terms of the core points in the story that Robert Generrick, to whom you referred yesterday, essentially went on broadcast on the airwaves and confirmed every facet of the story. So I'm not sure what the legal action would mean. mayaybe he's saying that we've accused him of breaking the rules when he didn't I mean, that's not a matter that either of us can adjudicate on just yet. So I'm not sure what that means at the moment. There There's a rule that the pollsters tend to use, which is that scandals in sort of commerce cut through when the stories are very simple to tell Do you see or do you think this is having a political impact? Is that your sense it's having an actual impact on Farg's standing now orr do you think people are in danger of getting lost in the weeds of The cryptos and the Bank of England and the Montenegro. is it one of those things where it's almost become too complicated for people to know how to respond to it? Great question. I think just two things. I think you are right in some ways, this is a complex story. It involves crypto, Montenegro, Arizona, Illinois, federal prosecutors, reform, Brexit Party, UK. There are lots of parts In other wdays, it's also simple. Farraage was funded Our headline was Fraage funded by convicted criminal. And I suppose that is the essence of the story. As for the impact and I suppose there has There's a question of the impact within reform and then within the country. So there's clearly this odour or scense at the moment that peopleople have asking questions about Fages future in his position and there's been a lot of Kolaminch is occupied by the idea that There is some sort of discussion there and reform whereas that would have not been fathomable only recently. I attribute that more to the five million pound donation than what I happened to done with the insight team and our podcast team a day or so ago. but It does seem like this will add to that and it was quite interesting that reform seemed they seem to be a bit reluctant to actually defend the underlying facts. They're just saying the rules were't break. Do you think he's becoming the millstone then? I don't know, but I do it's certainly an interesting time politically because of the fact that I've heard from reformed people who are just saying like, We're not here to defend that stuff, you know Robert Jenereer was asked, Have you ever stayed at a criminal's house? L they're not there to be answering those questions. They believe know you know we know what their position is in relation to things like migration and culture of the country and the economy, you obviously all politicians are there to give effect. They want to get back ono culturure w. This is so not this is so not what they want to be talking about and I think also, you know, as for the country I feel like with scandals these days it sort of they don't matter until they do. and I don't know what this means, but There is an interesting added dimension to it, which I don't think ever applied say in the case of kissed armors for EBs, which is Farage is a amazing amazing politician. He's a political animal and he will use this and wants to use it, it seems to illustrate his wider critique of the media and the political establishment. So you know whether that works, I mean, obviously he calls it a stitch up, he says stitch upitch up. So he's using it. he wouldn't have wanted it to happen, but he is quite agile in you know portraying it in a certain way. I mean his bet is that that people will side with him. And I guess it's a gamble hundred an We don't know, isn't it There is something odd about things that aren't disclosed, which is I mean to state the obvious, we don't know how many more of these there might be. Your work has exposed a whole brand new stream of stuff that we didn't know when we first learnted about Harble It is possible that there is still more undisclosed donations or characters out there. part of who funds him? R Yeah. I mean, it's a kind of fascinating personal story in some ways because I Farge previously said, I think in twenty seventeen that he was skinted You don't make money going into politics. Exactly And and and yet, and possibly for that reason, I don't know. he went through a separation probably quite expensive spending your life on the campaign triout. I don't know, but it's clear that he has relied upon people in ways that are quite remarkable in terms of the extent with the five million and Cultural's support for various aspects of his life and also just some of the characters themselves. It's not ye know, these aren't all conventional characters cultural being committed criminal. he's just Intrinsically it's an interesting decision to decide to take money from that person. I mean, it's so weird, G back to the nicknames which I know aren't yours. Posh George and apparently Post George called Farraage Daddy. He said that. So he's working for a man. pulling his chair out and finding him a fag and all the rest of it, and he's paying him is it's an amazing relationship because I've struggled to characterize it and so do a number of my sources because some of them say it's sort of servant master relationship, others sayates of friendship, others describing it as the ultimate aid, the Vixer, the right hand man for Farage probablyrobably is a combination of the above, But the money is going But you're quite right. He's separately his benefactor. And yeah, I mean, it isn't amazing. I can't think I personally can't think it would be like Cummings ately funding Boris Johnson. It's just a or Sue Greay also covering the cost of starmers armed guard when he goes from Kentish Town to Labour HQ. It is a difficult one to get one's head around. and I don't really know how how one could actually describe it it's very difficult to get one's head around Poland. Thanks. thanks coming in