The Future of the Labour Party

Theait is over. Live table games have arrived in New York City. Experienced Blackjack Baklara, craps in Roulette twenty four seven only at resesorts W, New York City. Gambling problem call eight seven seven eight Hopeen Y or text Hopeen Y or six seven three six nine.ust be twenty one or older to gamble Standard as a is supplly This is a global production. What does Burnham do about Norsea oil and gas? Trump is obsessed with this. He's obsessed with it and it's weird that he's so obsessed with it. Trump was in a foul mood last night, so I think eyelashes Andy actually got off pretty lightly. My hunch is. that Trump will probably quite like the sheer the audacity of what Bern has done, the guts of what he's done. If he wants to differentiate himself straight up from Starmer, it would be a bigger signal to not run out there than to run out there. What is a UK foreign policy stance and disposition in the a of Berham? We don't know yet. I suspect he might not know yet either. I don't know anything. I see that he was, I guess the mayayor of a town I hear he's extremely liberal Extremely So that means he probably won up and up the notorth. You know, I gave H I gave Kers Thomer some pretty good advice. I said, open up The North Sea. I told this guy Fifteen times And he wouldn't do it. I said, you're going to lose your Prime mininistership And did. In fact, I called it about three days earlily, right? That is Donald Trump on that small town somewhere in the north of England, fromrom where Idy Burnham was the mayor and also on Kirstama and how He, Donald Trump, could have saved H premiership If only he'd been listened to How will Donald Trump play Andy Burnham And more importantly How will Burnham respond Donald Trump Welcome to the News agents The news agents It's John. It's Melis. It's Louis. And Donald Trump can never resist offering an opinion whether he is well informed on what he's opining about or not is always an open question. But you can be sure that diplomats in London, American diplomats in London will be sending cables back to Washington full of detail about Andy Burnham, his life, his predispositions, his attitudes on the Transatlantic Alliance, and probably same material going this other direction fromr Washington to London about the Trump administration to do, what not to do And frankly What to do and what not to do is always impossible to know because Donald Trump will decide on a whim What he's going to say And there is nothing that any amount of planning can do. will stop that. And you know, the idea Kiss armour was solely brought down because we hadn't stopped We han't started drilling for naughty oil. It's just ridiculous. I mean whole series of other reasons that led to it. But you, Donald Trump as ever wants to take a victory lap and Andy Burnham won't find it any easier then Kes Am did. Yeah, I think this is a step back. This is obviously happening a new Prime Minister at a moment when over the past few months, arguably US UK relations have been at their Na, their lowest point decades. You know, we've had the president who started off for quite a long time for an unexpectedly long time for a lot of people with pretty cordy relations with Starmer, very unusual, you know, very different sorts of people. but nonetheless, Starmer did his best to hug Trump close and that work for quite a long time. It started to fray over time and in the end reached its re the sort of end of that road when we got to the Iran war. So a new Prime Minister on paper might come at a useful moment to try and reset those relations. Question is is whether Burnham can do that and to what extent he's willing to do the things that would unlock doing that And it seems to me that there are sort of two really crucial things that will happen early on, which will sort of set the course or set the course in the early days at least. We can see what Trump's first impressions are from that fleeting clip. He's got this idea not only is he a mayor from some toown, but also Makeerfield of Manchester, Not sure which is which it was which but from East toown, is Yeah, some town someplace ye ye. littleittle town called Manchester. But you know, he's obviously what' got in his head that he's liberal. that's very liberal guy, that he's a very left wing guy. So thats that's in his head. Where that's a Mamani. Yeah. Yeah. we don't know exactly where that's come from. But of course, as you've already took the words mouth John, Trump isn't adverse to liking or getting on with left wing figures if there's something he likes about them I think once the story of Burnham is sort of explained, my hunch is that Trump will probably quite like the sheer Gassio the audacity of what Burnham has done, the guts of what he's done. He loves a winner and he'll quite like that I think two things will probably be quite crucial early on. One, he said it in that What does Burnham do about Norsea oil and gas Because Trump is obsessed with this, he's obsessed with it, and it's weird that he's so obsessed with it because it's obviously a British thing. and at the very margins, there's probably some slight little bit of benefit for us not exploiting our oil and gas. It might make American oil and gas that little tiny fraction of a bit more expensive, but he's obsessed with the idea that we do it. And we know from the reporting that Burnham is has an open mind on this question of whether we should allow more drilling in the North Sea for oil and gas. and I'm sure it's at the back of Burnham's team's mind. they won't do it for this But if they do decide to move and to reverse the Milliban policy, not at least if they move Ed Milliban from the Energy brief, there will clearly be some Political benefits with the Trump administration, and he'll go, I told Kia to do this and he's done it. I really like that. And the second thing I think that's going to be really important, which is been worked out at the moment with Downing Street is what happens to the defefense investment planl and how Trump how Burnham that is, approaches defense spending because if he does up it significantly again, that's something that will carry some favour with the Trump administration. Yeah. And I think I mean for context, Trump was in a foul mood last night. so I think eyelashes Andy actually got off pretty lightly with the sort of mayor of. We' saying eyelashes Andy now? Eyelashes Andy To put this inics, Trump had just come away from refusing to sign a bipartisan bill that would have allowed for much more affordable housing at a time when cost of living is very much top of the agenda for U. S. voters. And he was really cross because his own side pushed through at that point his kind of war bill, which would give him another ninety billion dollars to spend on sort of Iran and the processes around that. So much of his ire was lelled at his own side, his own senators, Republican senators and Wh I think this is relevant is because, I mean, you mentioned Mamdani, Trump was also furious with the success of Mamdani's candidates in New York overnight on Tuesday night The relevance of this is that he is now starting to think about the midterms. The midterms could be really bloody for Trump. It could be frankly, the moment that he loses the House, he doesn't have full control of Congress. So if you think about the timing on that, if Andy Burnham starts as PM, sort of proper feet hitting the ground and a new term in September Two months later, There is a midterm election, which is actually not very good for Trump. It is a very different context to the one in which Kir Starmer started. You know Back in January of twenty twenty five, he was rushing through the Madelson appointment. He wanted to get the trade deal done. He wanted to be this guy's best friend If Andy Burnham comes into power at a time when the Trump star is waning, when at least one of those houses is not under Republican control, I think he can afford to be a little bit more U circumspect about the speed at which he rushes towards the American president, and that might actually give him some really useful breathing space. I don't deny that I think he will try and get some early wins. I think it's a really good call that the Northseea oil which he's already talked about might just be an easy way of sort of, you know paving a smooth path when he is at the White House, but I can't see him needing to be sort of straight over to Washington to kind of make his mark What do we know about Burnham He has put the domestic agenda, the North South divide at the forefront of any policy that he's going to talk about when he starts to govern. Of course, but then you get events that come up around the world, which you have to respond to and that you have to deal with. And that much as you would like to remain domestically focused You know, being Prime Minister has a habit of kind of throwing up stuff around the world And the American president, even if Donald Trump has lost the House of representatives in November The President of the United States still makes foreign policy largely unaffected by what is happening in Congress and therefore is still a powerful player So I think from that point of view, and you know Andy Burnham in the previous government jobs he's done being involved in the national security space to any meaningful extent. He's obviously been mayor of Manchester, which would mean he's not part of know the sort of intelligence briefings and all the rest of it. There is still a huge amount that goes on with GCHQ and the CIA and all of that that really does matter and that he'll need to get up to speed with. And the cooperation between the US and the UK in that area is significant. and so he will get his head round that. pretty quickly. That doesn't mean he has to rush out to Washington, although I bet he'll prettyret quickly. I mean You know notot over the summer, but I would think very soon in the autumn, assuming you know, he becomes Prime Minister in July I bet you bu well, September Yeah. well September you've got the United Nations General Assembly. here's my bet. You will have Andy Berner g to Washington first to see Trump before the UNGA and the press will be obsessed with this question Yes almost instantly as to when he's going to meet Trump. And you know what the And he should write press He should totally ignore the press, but you know what the paperers like they they will be happ they will be suggesting that it's a huge spurn and if they hasn't gone to see him in week one or week two. And Trump of course did say he was asked whether he wanted to be the first ign visit I think we've got that clip. Would you want to be the first person on his list to visit? No. No.. I do think. I mean, I think if he wants to differentiate himself straight up from Starmer, and obviously he's already pretty different, but it would be a bigger signal to not run out there than to run out there. And you know, the trouble with the Ungger with the UN General Assembly is it always comes right at the crux of the the sort of political timetable here in the conference season. Actually, what does he really want to do? What does he really want to do? He wants to address presumably his own party at conference really well and talk to the sort of whoever's listening to the rest of the country really well. I sort of think that You know, the country doesn't really like the UK lapdg. No comes to Trump and us. And I sort of think that if he held his nerve and said, I'll go out when the time is right or you know when the meeting is right or whatever, I think it's a much more powerful signal. It depends. Look, what you don't want to do is what Gordon Brown did, I think in two thousand nine, which was to go out to the UN General Assembly to UNA and be so desperate bilateral with Obama that Obama just saw I've seen you, you know, I see you a lot. I'm not haven't got time. And Gordon Brown literally chased Oba moment through the kitchens at the back of the United Nations where the Secret Service were guiding It was soep. It was so deep. It was so desperate. It looked so pitiful And of course, you know the Brown camp got an absolute kicking for the desperation of it. You don't want to do that. But if look, if Trump says, come to the White House, I remember Trump plays to his domestic audience when he's saying, I don't care. he's extreme liberal. You know, when the person is there, he's actually much more friendly, personable. Look what happened when Mamdani went to the White House, and Donald Trump was all over him because he loves the winner the temperament of what he thinks that Andy Berham represents in terms of a winner, tough guy, brutal, I think Donald Trump will love all that. Yeah. and look Berham might decide to adopt a very different stance than Starmer for domestic political reasons. and there have been leaders around the world, particularly in their run up to a general election who have done that to great effect, whether it's Caranneie or Albanzi or whoever. And I do think slight parenthesis here, but I do genuinely think that so many of the decisions or the kind of like the kind of paths the sort of different divergent paths that Berer might go down. I think so much it really is dependent on what he's thinking about a general election, like whether a general election next year in his own mind is a strong possibility becausecause I think that whether you're thinking if you think there's a general election next year, whether it's on Trump Whether it's on tax, the sort of budget that you pass, I think it takes you down very different routes than if you think there's a general election coming in twenty twenty nine. in which case you say Emily, he'll see out the whole of the Trump term and have a new American president And only Andy Burnham can know that and he probably doesn't even know yet because he's going to wait and see what the polls are like over the next six months and so on. But I do think that The Trump relationship will continue to matter, not least because as you say ear, he actually loses one of both houses and his domestic agenda is over. Actually, it's foreign policy in which he's already had enormous interest in the second term so far, over which he will be able to have most unrestrained kind of power and the things he'll be able to do. So he might be even more interventionist broad than we've seen so far And ultimately, there are questions, like you said, John, we don't really know what Andy Bunden thinks about foreign policy. He said very, very little to be fair we didn't know that much what Kir Starmer thought about foreign policy at either. That's often the case with incoming Pime mininisters. But he's going to have to articulate, I think he will be more domestically focused than Starmer. I think his choice of foreign Secretary be a very important one because I suspect he will want to be as more than Starmer was at home or sometimes he'll get dragged into things inevitably. But I think that He's going to have to articulate that if he doesn adopt that less cordial, slightly more belloose stance with the Americans competitorara. What does our foreign policy look like? Because it was our closeness to the American president and to be a sort of American president whisperer in Europe. gave us more power. And if it's not going to be that and he knows we're not going to engage much further than Stalmmer has done with regards to the EU What is a UK foreign policy stance and disposition in the a of Burnham? We don't know yet. I suspect he might not know yet either. I'm almost more intrigued by how Burnham chooses to address Musk actually, because you saw when he accepted the result in Makerfield and he was standing outside AshNFC football ground. warned that Britain riskks becoming more like the US and he described that trend. I wonder if we've got the clip, we can just play you now. There was a risk, if you like that we would carry on seeing Britain politics of our country go down a path towards greater darkness and division and ending up somewhere like the United States of America, where people don't talk to each other in the street if they vote different ways or in their workplace. We will not let that happen here. We will bring people back So yeah, that's Andy Burnham saying, lookook, we mustn't become America In terms of his handling of Donald Trump If you look at Donald Trump's approval ratings in the UK, they are absolutely in the toilet. No with reform voters. Even with reform voters. And that's why you've seen Nigel Farage putting distance himself between Trump and you know his own kind of leadership of reform And I just think that so Andy Burnham, if there is an election soon, will be thinking, right, I've got nothing to gain from sucking up to Trump. And I don't think you're going to see a moment anything like you know Kir Starmer brandishing the envelope from his breast pocket of his suit to Donald Trump Differe age. Doesn't that seem like a different age, Donald Trump, the new president Let me go and suck up to him and see whether I can you get him to kiss my ass. I think arguably the funny thing is you could argue that it's exactly the same age. It's just that Starmmer completely misread it And I think that what Burnham will try and do I think Starmer, if you were going to critique Starmer's approach of Trump, I would say, you know, you could say he had to try, but it was not to explain to the country. Ben Juder who who used to work for David Lam Foreign offffice, wrote good piece about this the other day, you know, saying that Starmer's mistake was to not use the Trump election As a moment, turn to the country and say something hass changed fundamentally at all. and that's going to require a different approach. For example, it might be defense spending raaise taxes tound defense spending. Whereas what Starmed it for a long time, like a lot of the rest of you, it was just sort of do sort of Trump Mark one all over again, which is sort of go he's actually a lot more normal as an American president you think, listen to what he listen to what he does, not what he says, all that all those cliches where actually as we said at the time You know, this was a different sort of Trump, even compared not to Trump last time. I do think you have to cut him some slack for how he read the room in sort of January February of twenty twenty five. That was before the Iice raids, that was before the political arrests, that was before the invasion of Venezuela and Iran. I'm not saying that we couldn't see the type of presidency that was going to unroll, but from Starmer's position I think at that point, he just knew he had to get the trade deal And when he came back with a trade deal, having had, you know, his ambassador in place, The perception was that he'd done well. you know, he'd been the first in there, he'd come away with the trade deal, he notched it up as a win. Now, I think a lot of us it was the day after Zelensky. It was the day after the Zelensky meeting. R whichich was an absolute shit show. Yeah. So I think you know I think a lot of us who had followed the Trump sort of psychodram for the last ten years were already feeling ququeasy about that.ition Was Starmer right to hope that it would unroll in a clever way or a good way as opposed to a terrible tariff way? Yeah, he was right. Surely he's going to go for the Goldenock strategy of just not too hot or not too cold. That's why they stay away. Yeah. well you do enough that you keep the relationship on track and business like and cordial when you meet, but you don't start going desperately trying to ingratiate down. Or desperately trying to start a war with Trump because much to be had there either. Well, the question I think will which could emerge during a Bernham premiership is does Trump actually the thing which everything has been about him preventing him from doing, which is pull a plug on NATO. And if that does happen, and I know people will say, no, he can't do it because the Senate has to do it. Yeah, OK, fine. but he can basically say for all intentents and purposes, Atle five is out the window. know Trumble He can just destroy it. Yeah. And I don't think I think in an era where he loses the Senate or the House And as I say, his domestic presidency is all but over. He will be looking for drama. He would also be looking in this in the Berham government in a way he wasn't in quite the same way during the Starmer government He will be looking for ways to stay relevant Because the bandwagon, you can feel it already,'s already moving on. It's all about the twenty twenty eight primaries. He will hate that. He'll want to stay in the limelight. off all the second h American presidents, there is no one who would less like to be a lame duck than Donald Trump. He'll be looking for drama, he'll be looking for ways to stay in the spotlight. And you've got to think that the chances of him doing something on that are reasonably high and then Burnham, then Burnham will be one of the principal European leaders who has to find a way to respond. And this is why I mean this isn't just about foreign policy, it's about domestic policy. My big question about Burnham government and again, it kind of comes down to what he's kind of thinking about in an election to some extent What is he going to do about tax I think he's got one chance if he wants to, partly for defence but for other reasons as well, if he's thinking about foreign policy and other things, he's probably got one chance in his first budget in this Parliament to rip up they pledges on tax on income tax and VAT and national insurance. I think if he doesn't do it in that first budget, then he'll look like and he comes back to it later. he'll look like he's just chasing his own tail and he's responding to his own economic failure. But he has a chance as an incoming Prime mininister if he wants to, to basically say, look, those were Ki A Stama's pledges. But for defence, for example, but for other reasons and public services as well, I'm going to be increasing taxes. For me, that is the pivotal decision of his government in the first few months that will come And that's why his choice of Chancellor is so important I would bet that the foreign leader He's actually trying to have a little meet and greet with first up would be somebody like Mer Mand Dani who seems to embody exactly the kind of politics that Burnham is now hoping to emulate, a kind of business friendly socialism a huge sort of wave of goodwill towards him in a city. He comes from the sort of the meral structure, obviously And there is something and we talked about it on the USA episode yesterday, there is something about the way Manddani does politics, which is about joy. And if you saw overnight, the little kind of Instagrams that you know eyelashes Andy has been putting out, they're kind of flirting with the electorate. He wants to have some fun, he looks like a man who wants to get into a job and then enjoy the job. And he even, I think he said hope, I you know, this is the recipe for hope There is something that he's learned from Starmer already, which is don't go in and tell the electorate that their lives are going to become even more shit, that they're going to have a terrible time, that it's all going to be depressing. What Mamani does, whether it's with the Kicks, whether it's with basketball, or whether it's with sort of bringing New Yorkers together, and actually the stuff that Bernam was saying on the stump there, which was let's try and love our neighbours, let's try and kind of sit down, have a meal with our neighbours is exactly the stuff that you heard from Am Dani. There is this sense of Let's find the joy in politics again, which frankly has been completely missing. Well I mean, in that sense, with Burnham in a way, this is why one of the reasons he's here in the first place He can kind of thank Trump for it in one sense, which is that like Labour is looking for its answer to algorithmic politics and algorithic media, which is basically the Trump era and the Mam Danni era You know Mam Danny a great Democratic answer to Democratic party to Trump And in a way, Burnham is Labour Party's answer to that Trump era. One of the reasons Starmer is not going to be there anymore is because he sat so ill at ease so badly, so uneasily with politics in the long shadow of Trump and the way he does media and the way that frankly we've learned to do media from him. So we're already seeing that with these selfies and all the selfie videos and all of that that Burnham is just takes to that like a duck to water in a way that wellver his wideer merit, Starman neverv did Let's talk about the wider merits of Kistama or otherwise in just a moment The wait is over. Live table games have arrived in New York City. Expericed Blackjack Bakara. Craps in Roulette twenty four seven only at Resorts W, New York City. Gambling probleblem callall eight seven seven eight Hopeen Y or texts Hope in Y or six seven, three, six nine. must be twenty one or older to gamble. Standard m Jry supply In the first two years of this government we made really important progress on immigration. and one of the tests of an outgoing Prime Minister is whether you leave the country in a better state than you found it, and I am leaving it in a better state. Immigration has long been a cause for concern on lawful migration, which when we came in two years ago was nearly a million net migration We got that down to about a fifth of that number. So a huge reduction over eighty percent reduction on the crossings across the channel, which so many people are concerned about understandably. We've brought those numbers down as well. so the steps we've taken are beginning to pay off. Well, that is K Stama rolling the pitch for himself on What his legacy will be, did you leave the country a better place or a worse place? And it's kind of been fascinating this week. The extent to which It just feels like it's already ancient history that Kist Amer announced that he was resigning Prime Minister, the kind of waves came over and the sea looked calm and no one was talking about Kir Stamma. We've only been talking Andy Burnham, I suppose it is worth reflecting on what he did do and what he didn't do. I was speaking to someone who worked with him in Downing Street this morning, who said It is astonishing He didn't shag an intern He didn't crash the economy. He didn't did not think we were going there. Well, no, I mean, just in terms of a president. Yeah, but he didn't you're right, he didn't He He didn't have parties during lockdown. He didn't, you know, have a reckless referendum that took us out. What has he done? other and what do we know about the person who's going to succeed him? And this person was saying that there was a lot that Kestama did that was very good. He was a hard worker, assiduous with these boxes And you know, and yet he's being replaced by he's being replaced by someone who's got great vibes, as we were saying just a moment ago Yeah, I don't the hard working thing. I mean, I I mean, I would expect that, right? I mean At a bare minimum, Prime Minister should be reasonably assiduous with his paperwork. I mean Well not all prrime ministers have been. No, but most are. I mean I think you probably think about Boris Johnson. Yes. although yeah and even then there will have been a certain amount he had to do. I think that it goes in a way, I think with Isama and obviously, it's entirely fair enough, he has got a list of achievements to his name. Of course he does. and I think he's rightry Broadly speaking is in a better position than it was two years ago. he's certainly, as we discussed the other day, on the international stage in particular, I think he's restored a certain dignity to the impression of Britain abroad. I think to be fair to him I think soon at started that process, but you know, STAM has continued with it I sort of think with Starma that unfortunately it would be was a he's a politician. It goes back to that conversation we were just having He's I get this quite a lot online and people say Does this mean? U when you say that he wasn't suited to the political age in which we're living? Does this mean that the era of the kind of quiet man, a quiet industrious Leader is over And I sort of think, yes, at least for the time being, it is. That might be difficult to hear But ultimately We are in this age should go back to that last chat. of algorithmic politics where you have to try and get your message across. you have to be louder and have something to say. and that was never Stalmer's style. I think unfortunately he is politician I almost think it would be like sort of bringing McMillan or someone into the kind of sort of a of modern politics. He doesn't sit easily with it And I think unfortunately from day one he was doomed for that reason I have been amazed Frankly, at the kind of communal shrug. with which the political world has moved. It just accepted the Starmer resignation as if it's a totally normal way to start the week And I think it's the normality quuietly kills me because it shouldn't be that easy, should it? to just sort of wave off someone that we have democratically elected as our prime mininister. and Yes, in a way there's something extraordinary about the bloodlessness of the coup. The fact that the party on the surface is not divided, it's not tribal. it's kind of getting on with what's happened I don't think that's necessarily where the country is. I think it's something more subtle than outrage because A lot of the people who are quietly agghast at what has happened would also frankly admit, like you say, Lewis, that you know maybe he wasn't brilliantly suited to the job, that he struggled with his own party, his own MPs, his own policies, he changed his mind. We've been through that. We know know that we've said before there wasn't a clear narrative, a clear story The swiftness of the heist and the idea it was less of a butchering and more of a sort of stung gun to the head I think has just sort of leftft us all Reeling a bit as a country that it shouldn't be that easy. It shouldn't be that easy just to kind of go Yeah okay you say, Oh well done, ye you did bye I mean He gave the speech at nine and thirty. By nine forty, he'd walked back inside and by ten fifty, Andy Burnham was on his train and we had the choppers al already following the train down. And I just I feel like the sort of the speed at which that happened is slightly nausey and. see, I would actually disagree. I actually think it should be that easy. or at least I actually think I don't think it was that easy because the truth is that you know this is attempts to get rid of him have been on the way for a long time. and a prrime minister, you, he dug in, he dug in for as long as possible And people talk about the high store about Burn and we've talked about it. But the truth is It wasn't really a I mean, you know, it was a highest in the sense that it was an extraordinary act to sort of invigle yourself into parliament through that by election, win it and so on and that took guts. But it wasn't Burnham that did it for Starmer What did it for Starmer is the fact he had no support left among his own MPs or almost none. If he had any support, let's be honest, if he had any chance or any real support left in the Parliamentary Labour Party and in the wider Labour Party, Starmer would be fighting this contest against Berner But he doesn't. You know, peopleople I've seen online, they're blaming Burnham, they're attacking Burnham. It's not Burnham. It's the Labour Party that's abandoned Starmer. Burnham was never on his side to begin with. But Lewis, that contradicts slightly your point about algorithmic politics and you just can't be a quiet man or a motor man. I think that Starm's fundamental problem Yeah, I mean, it was two foold. was one, his ability to communicate to the public and tell them the story of what he was doing. And I think Emily, one of you said this morning that even his resignation speech was boring. You know, which you think, God, how do you manage to make a speech when you're leaving number ten? Dull That's part of the problem. The other problem was he wasn't interested in political strategy. He wasn't interested in what it took to keep his backbenches happy, how he was going to position the Labour Party in Vis v the Tories, Visa v reform. and that was the cardinal Sin. the MPs who You know, Albanzi, you mentioned him earlier on Now Albanz is a politician in some ways, temperamentally very similar to Starmer. He's not a great communicator in that way. He's not kind of he hasn't got charisma, he's not a folksy, but he's brilliant at party management. He understands the party of what it keeps the Australian Labour Party in tune, he meets the right people, he wants to talk political strategy, he understands polling, he knows where the public opinion is. He's got that antennae Kir Starmer hasn't got. But Alberneti' not mrter Karis. Yeah like, what would we say A Starmer's political skills That he got labour elected. that he did the Yes, yeah, but wouldn't any labour leader reasonably confident labour leader got elected? There are only two people alive in Britain today, at one lab one percent the vote John they implode it. I think honestly, I think even Jeremy Corwyin would have won the twenty twenty four election. But he look, I'm just saying as a matter of fact he's one of two people alive today Wh's given labour a majority in Parliament? I actually think that we're ye, we're not even disagreeing on the fact that He struggled in the role of Prime Minister It's something I suppose slightly more visceral for me, slightly more fundamental which is, as you said, the hand goes into the water, there's a ripple. the hand goes out and it's just a flat icy surface again. And it sort of makes me wonder about just the decorum of are sort of public lives and I can't explain it better than that. It's a sense that In this era where everything happens so fast, where obviously, you know we've talked about being termally online and the social media and the clips and all the rest of it, we haven't even use to do the OBIit properly. We haven't And I think you know frankly, the things that he set himself out Cutting immigration. I mean, that is a massive massive drop. You could say that Shabana M mud, but okay,ill Or would she soon Exactly, But you know you could say he had the skill to work out that Evette Cooper wasn't going to do the thing that Shabana Mahmou did and he put her to the right. people would say they do. But maybe they started it. OkayK. I mean, fair enough. But if you want to look at wins, they have borrowed to invest, they put another one hundred forty four billion do into infrastructure investment They have boughtght down immigration. they have managed somehow to swerve up toil this point, inflation that we're expecting as a result of the Iran war. I think you can point to the wins, but I'm still not even saying that that's That's what I'm feeling uncomfortable about. What I'm feeling uncomfortable about is just the speed at which we have kind of like packed up and moved on. It's like we're a pop up shop of prime ministers and that's just gone now. You know, there's something about our politics. I mean, we talked yesterday about the language. on British politics and You know, and kind of whether Kemmy Bayidnock had gone too far in what she'd said about Bridget Phillips and the education seecretary. Look The language of our politics isn't as rough as it is in America But the casual brutality of our politics is way, way worse than America. I don't think we' be brutal enough. I think some should be gone now, Well you have a general election in Britain, And the prrime minister is being shown out the door, the serving prrime minister is being shown out the door, first thing the next morning, getet out, the new Pime minister is going to be arriving pian eleven o'clock.our piano is in the street, get the removal men in, you're out. and the civil service are there applauding nicely as the new Prime minister walks in. That is the brutality of British polit But also not just the brutality, as in on a personal level, it's very sad It's if you talk to the civil servants, and it's interesting actually that one of the things I think S did really wrong, and we talked about it yesterday was the removal of Ollie Robins, the sort of the blame game, which was not very yeah, it was ugly. And we're hearing now on the grapevine that Ollie Robbins might be straight back into a burnham sort of premiership as a national security advisor. But if you talk to civil servants now, they will tell you how impossible it is to get anything done, anything achieved The electorate tells you that they want stability, they want long term. they want something that will you know get them a railway from north to south. They don't vote for it Exactly. exactly. But that was okay, if we're talking about, you know, Stam's success foreign policy would, you know, let him bank that. The failure was that he never gripped the Downing Street machine And there was a continual changeover of staff of He advises. I know he did a lot of the firing himself And that James Pannell coming in as the new chief of staff to Andy Burnham has got to really run that machine so that you know government the civil service is working the service of Andy Burnnabable and what he wants and making sure his rich runs and that will be the job of now. Just imagine're into a place where Burnham thinks it's all going fine, right? It is going fine, but he's not delivering as fuss he wants. And he's in this place where come next March, April, he goes, right, sod it. You're all kind of hankering about me, know this being undemocratic, let's have a general election. And he does lose then to reform. I think you know, when you look at the polls at the moment, they're on a knife edge and this is before he's come in. So imagine that in office, your ratings probably slightly fall Who knows? I mean, know we're all in the land of sort of hypotheticals here. Imagine if that actually happened. If Burnham came in, he had six months in the job, he hadn't moved fast enough for a hungry electorate, and then suddenly you land Nigeah Farage in the job come eight. I mean what what would we be thinking? It's totly possible. I mean I would just say that I'm to point It's really interesting your feelings about it. Like I sort of like I feel the opposite. I almost feel British politics, Imost feel like it's not pral enough right now. I was just saying like I sort of this weird liminal period we're in now between between Starmer and Burnham. Honestly, let's just end it.s like let's get Burnham in there. But I think you're more revolutionary than I mean, that's not a shock. Like you feel the same about the monarchy quite But I don't think shop off a lot of heads. No no, no no, I just mean like a bit, no, because I really don't think this is about revolution. I actually think the revolution is doing what we're doing now. Typically, historically, when we were having a new Pime mininister, it was done and dusted quickly You know, Wilson to Callahan was a week or so, same with Thatcher to May That's when you win an election. No, no, no, this is with Prime Minister handing one to the other within the same party. Like, you know, this is three weeks now, precisely to your point what you've just said, which is that like the civil serervice is now just sort of frozen. Burnham wants some time to prepare okay, but like there's this weird kind of period between things and I would just say You know, in terms the brutality of rich policy, lot of people saying, why are we getting rid of prime miniss You know it's unstable. I would always just say the system iss not working, my point actually. I think the system is working very well. I think what our system is showing is its flexibility and adaptability. Our system is really good at getting rid of Daf Pime ministers. because When people say it's unstable, I always just say to them, okay, which of the prime ministers have we had recently that you wouldn't have got rid of Because we clearly would have got rid of Cameron because he couldn't stay on because he didn't have the authority after Brexit. May had no political authority left because she cant get a deal through. she had to go. Johnson had to go because of his frankly personity May Johnon to go is an absolute classic. I had to go because he lost election Star is probably the most borderline, but Labour MPs have concluded that he can't do the job. So which of them would you do it rid of? I think our problem is not about getting changing prime mininisters. ourur systemic problem, I think we've got the moment is the quality of political leadership coming through. And the question with Burnham is, is he going to be yet another one of these relatively poor political leaders have we had or is he going to be something better? Well, let's just pause out there because Last night, the Chancellor of the Exchquer, Rachel Reeves was on a platform and she was being asked about advice she'd give to anyone becoming Chancellor? Just on that, obviously he's going to choose a Chancellor. It might be you, it might not be you. What would your advice be to anyone in the future taking on the role as Chancellor I'm not sure if anyone wants my advice. but sorry, just can we have that again please, Rachel? We'll be back after the break They said the Big Apple had everything. Now, it has more. The wait is over. Live table games have arrived in the Big Apple. Every roll, every shuffle, every spin happens right here. twenty four seven. Only at Resorts World New York City. Experience Blackjack, Bakara, Kraps and Roulette. It's not just a whole new world. It's a world like no other. Resorts World New York City. Gambling Pone call eight se seven eight Hpen wire teext Hpen Y four six seven three six nine must be twenty one or older to gamble St standard Messitrry suppuly And just look ahead to tomorrow's newews agents, which will be a question and answer on the week that saw Starmer Fall and Burnham rise. And let's give you a taste of one of the questions. This is from Sophie Louise Hi News agents. Do you think Labour MPs and Burnham himself have played the replace the leader card too early? We all know realistically Labour can only afford politically to do it once so as not to be branded the same as the Tories and to avoid calls for an early general election Surely they should have copied Canada, kicking Trudeau out mere month from the election and bringing in a winner in Carny, completely rewriting the polls and ratling their opponents who only really knew how to fight Trudeau Well, I suppose that suggest that there's an election in twenty twenty nine rather than next year Do you think they would be? I think if you get to bounce in the polles, I think there's a chance here. It needs to be a mighty bounce though, doesn't it? It would need to be well. Labour's at like nineteen twenty at the moment, reformer now on like twenty four, twenty five. it wouldn't need to be a huge bounce. I think decent Well put it this way. If he gets a good bounce and it sustains into the autumn I think the clamour for one is going to be really substantial because let's not forget really