The legacy of David Cameron's resignation

Wait is over. Live table games have arrived in New York City. Experienced Blackjack Baklara. Kraps in Roulette twenty four seven only at Resorts W, New York City. Gambling problem call eight seven seven eight, Hopeen Y or T text Hope and Y or six seven three six nine.ust be twenty one or older to gamble St standard as a is supplyied This is a global production. Kemmy Baadnock started off. I thought we brrutal efficiency in the attacks that she launched. And then I think we were all watching it and started to feel a tiny bit uncomfortable. Is this going too far?et said there were gasps amongst us reporters in the press gallery at the sheer brutality of Kenny Bayadenot's attack on the labour cabinet. Beeves's face was once again it was a face that was trying not Kellby Baitock looks like she's wears hobail boots and is tough as nails and all the rest of it and is the hard woman of the Conservative partarty who's taking the fight to labour. And so for her supporters, her backbenchers, that looks good And if you're Briidget Phillipson and you've been called a spiteful class warrior, maybe you wear that badge and think, well It might be good that comes to me. Spiteful class warrior actually, I don't think is a big on the floor of the House of Commons. and honestly I don't think Bridget Phillips will mind a bit. What happens to somebody who brings dignity to the office? They get turfed out by their own because frankly, they're not electoral magic, they're not electoral gold dust. Dignity is a bit of a kind of like the loser's prize now. You know, you've done dignity, well done, but yeah, fuck off we still don't want you. Hands up if you think the education secretary is doing a good job. Even she doesn't think she's doing a good jobrak. Even she doesn't think she's doing a good job.ust someone did, someone did just for those For those who raised their hands, the two people who raised their hands, yesterday, a poll found that zero percent of teachers think the education secretary is doing a good job. Zero percent. She taxed private schools to pay for more teachers. But the number of teachers has gone down. Yeah It turns out appointing a spiteful class warrior as education sectary was a disaster traraitors. Fiteful class warriors That was Kemmy Badnock at Prime Minister'sQions today earning a rare rebuke from the speaker about the sort of language being used in our politics today It was blunt, it was brutal. But was it bullying? Is this just what politics sounds like today or has it gone too far Welcome to the News agents. The newews agents. It's John. It's Mateless. It's Louis. W watchingrime Minister's questions, there was always going to be an added interest today, the first Prime Mister's questions since Kir Stahmer announced that he was resigning as Labour Party leader and that Andy Burnham is almost certain to take over from him Chemmy Baadnock started off I thought with brutal efficiency in the attacks that she launched on the government, on the labour backack benches And then I think we were all watching it and started to feel a tiny bit uncomfortable about Is this going too far? and you know, to Emily, what you just said, is it bullying And at which point while we was thinking that debating it upstood the speaker to warn MPs about the language they're using first quarter of this year, sorry Prime Minister Can I just say let us think about the language we're use I think that'll be the first of ls, please. Can I just say, think about the language using? Because when we leave this Chamber, don't be surprised when constituents feel they can use the same language against each other. Let us show a little bit more decorum and respect to each other.. So that was as John said, the speaker, rebuking Kemy Badenock for her comments and indeed I note some of our colleagues in the press gallery, including GB News's Christopher Hope Echoing just how shocking at least some people in the Chamber found it, he tweeted, there were gasps amongst us reporters in the press gallery. I mean, they've seen a few parliamentary sessions that have got, you know pretty brutal over the years at the sheer brutality of Kemy Badnoock's attack on the Labour cabinets and putative successor Andy Burnham at PMQs today. This wasn't the end of it, it has been reported. Jess Algot from the Guardian, saying that MPs have told her that Bridget Phillipson and Liz Kendall, the science secretary confronted Kemmy Badnoock about her language at PMQ's A the session in the gallery, where she called Phillipson spiteful, which Kendall said was outrageous. Badenoock is reported to have replied, I'm never going to stop talking about how spiteful you are. Phillipson then hit back at Badenoock saying public are going to find out who you really are. So this bad blood, this acrimonious exchange developing after the session as well. And it is also being reported that Labour MPs want to complain officially to the speaker about some of that language, talking about the gestapo, talking about traitors and so on. It is not the first time that Kemy Bidnoock has shown let's put it more charitably, some steel at PMQs, but it's clearly the moment which labour andPs feel most exposed to it. Look, let's put this in context. Kemy Badnoock fired a few straight arrows frankly att a party that probably is feeling pretty queasy about the way that they have behaved over the last forty eight hours There were very few people who stood outside number ten or number eleven, including the Chancellor herself when the Prime Minister was making his speech There were two hundred or more MPs in that selfie that Andy Burnham took when he arrived at Westminster Hall for his, I mean swearing in virtual coronation And so I think what Kemy Badenock did in PMQs today Go for the jugular. did not shy away from saying what I think many people around the country are thinking, which is that Kstahmer has stepped down partly as a result of some terrible policies on behalf of his Chancellor And that actually it was not a particularly edifying spectacle for his own chancellor not even to be outside sort of waving him off or being at least part of a farewell team when she'd stood beside him and had that job so prominently for the last two years. And if you walked up to the set which I did actually walked towards the television set. Reeves's face was once again A picture of somebody? Well, it was a face that was trying not to cry. I think, you know, we were asking ourselves because we have seen her in tears in the Cons last time because she thought the kissed arm was about to fire her to sack her quite frankly and We were trying to work out whether She was sort of holding her face in that grimace because she was angry at Kemy Baennoock's words or contorted because it was quite hard to get away from the truth of what she was saying or just you coming to the reality that maybe her time as Chancellor is very much up, which is a pretty excruciating thing to have to sit through publicly. And I think the point is that Kemy Badenot was kind of frankly hitting where it hurt as far as Reeves was going But once she turned on Phillipson, it started to have that sort of edge of mean girls because suddenly you've got sort of what two prominent labour women in a row and two sort of working class women in a row and you're just going from one to the other without even a pause. Now, what she said about Phillipson was, there are fewer teachers on your watch than when you came in. We fact checked that. That is true, right? So it's not that what she's saying is so shocking. It sort of created an atmosphere that she was just kind of like going through, popping them off, right? I wonder whether at the end of this What you're left with is being a net win win because Kemy Badenock looks like she's Wears hobnaail boots and is tough as nails and all the rest of it and is the hard woman of the Conservative Party who's taking the fight to labour. And so for her supporters, her backbenchers, that looks good. And if you're Bridget Phillipson and you've been called a spiteful class warrior, maybe you wear that badge and think, well, They might be good that comes to me. Theplable me badge. The deplorable M badge, exactly. And so they all come out of it thinking, ye, it's a bit of a net win I've got there. I don't know. I mean, that's a very cynical view. But look, the House of Commons, you know, it was bombed in the Second World War, and Churchill insisted that it wasn't redesigned when it was rebuilt He wanted it to remain the cockpit of debate of bear pit where people really looked at each other across a sword's length. A sw's length apart. so that you kind of you felt that it was you know, almost one on one combat taking place a sword length apart. I think that A spiteful class wararrior actually, I don't think is a big problemard worse on the floor of the House of Commons, and honestly I don't think Bridget Phillips will mind a bit. I think that she has been I think what Kemy Baynock has just done is cement Bridget Phillipson's place in the next cabinet Because the best thing that you can be lab honestly, she'll get it.on you say John wear that badge. I wouldn't be surprised if she literally wears badge. Literally puts it on a badge. Because remember what Kemmy Bidnock is talking about there? She's talking about one of the most popular policies within the parliamentary Labour Party and actually within the public, which is levying V eightT on private schools. Now, Kemmy Bidnock might not like that And I'm sure it's probably cost maybe the oldd Cervives for MP a few quid as a result of it, and maybe they don't li likee that very much and they've been against it from the start fine. But Bridget Phipson will wear that with pride. I think that there are other remarks though about that policy from Geby Bayidnock, which he didn't see on the floor of the Cons. But when Bidnoock is talking about Gestaapo, which he did with interview with Tim Shipppan the other day and spepectator in relation to that policy. I think, you know, Winston Church will tell you this because he did this back in nineteen forty five. Maybe it's just a good idea not to bring the gestapo into anything with regards to you know British political life, particularly that on private schools. I don't think the Nazis had a particular policy with regs to valuating Godw on private schools. Godwin's lw in nutshell, isn't it? ly can you get to a Nazi analogy from something completely unrelated to anything to do with the secondcond W. Yeah, I'm not sure that Himmler had that many views on whether British school kids British parents should be paying VAT on sending their kids to Marborough College or whatever it happens to be. But anyway, I do think that it is true to say that with regards to Biden, not I actually quite like a pug nature style in the comons and I do think part of her stick arly I think that's possibly one of the reasons she's probablyling pretty well at the moment is that she does have and is cultivating this sort of aura of strength being brusque and no bullshit and just sort of telling it how it is. I do think you could make an argument to say that clearly the danger of that is that it goes too far. and there is quite a long history now of her speaking let's put it put it this way rather firmly about certain issues which is causeed about Lash. I mean, people might remember during the twenty twenty four leadership contest, consonservative leadership contest, she said that she thought that between five to ten percent of civil servants should be in prison She was accused during her period as a cabinet minister. There had been some suggestions that she had a rather bullying type of behavior towards her officials. She suggested that her critics internally were covering up their own failures, gross incompetence. I tell you what all this makes me think is that And it's quite interesting the media gets blamed a lot for what is happening in politics. and it's quite interesting to sort of go into the bear pit, as you call it and say, no, no, this is how politicians are actually speaking to and about each other. This is like leave us out of this But what strikes me and all those examples you've just given, Lewis, I think tell a story of somebody who is frankly termally online and who is writing and indeed speaking to be clipped up That is the thing that absolutely sort of gets me. Like if the chamber is meant to be a place of proper debate, if it's actually meant to be a place where you argue on your feet and you actually sort of put policies or put ideas or put challenges to your opposition, which are then responded, That feels like a healthier place to be than somebody who comes with a few set lines or a few set tweets and just wants the virality of it. She always from me is a deeply online politician. The way that she speaks, the way that she acts, she is very much a politician of the twenty twenties. and I think you know, that That way that online political culture is, which does sort of brookn a sense and which is extremely direct and just sort of cultivated, everything cultivated. that' sort ofnark. Yeah, you can hear itnarkiness. You can hear it in a way that she interacts. But you can hear it as a sort of political trail video C't you You can hear them sort of using her interjections and sort of showing you what has happened. I mean it feels very curated in a way, even though I'm sure she would argue it's just common sense and it's telling it like it is. I agree with that. But you know you go back to the commons where debates on policy would happen When there is a debate on policy in the House of Commons, the second reading of the whatever Bill The place is empty because no one is interested in that. They come in for Prime Minister's questions They want to see a punch up They want to get written up on X or wherever it happens to be so that they get a good review of their performance in the comments. We just open the news agents with that exact w who won PMQs Yeah. And I just think that, you know, so maybe she's smart. mayaybe she's just being smart about way you play modern politics, which is to come out with ready made quotes and clips that will play well on X or Instagr or Facebook or wherever it happens to be. I mean my question I suppose is is does she go too far? Is it does it tilt into that question of whether it's bullying or whether it's mean girls or whether it's just plain unpleasant, that you just think, Oh, I mean you know, I mean when Norman Tebittt was kind of right by Thatcher Norman Tebittt did the boot boy stuff, the Chingford skinhead. He put the boot into all these politicians. That just sort of rose above some of that. Whereas Kare Bayadenock has taken it upon herself to be the boot person as well.j shocked because it's a female voicing it. Whereas frankly, male politicians have patronised and booted female politicians for decades. Yeah, and that is also a good question. Are we Are we going going you know getting an attack of the vapor. Well to your point, Kemy Bidnoock is seeing her highest favorability to date, according to Uglv, which is thirty one percent. Now I'm not pretending it was as a result of what she said an hour ago in the Cons. This will go back to her win in Aberdeen South, the byi election of the weekend. this will go back to presumably how she handled some of the earlier debates that we were having around Henry Novak and around the sort of you know Prime mininisterial delicacies, I think of how KS Aamma resigned It is interesting that whatever she is doing or has done in let's say the last ten days appears to be working. So she will take sucker from that I question whether today's PMQ's performance helps her in that area. I think that I know for a fact that you know some of the people that are advising her about how she needs to kind of shape the leadership and get the party in the direction is going loved the way she reacted towards Henry Novak and thought it was very smart politics thinking about you the way they fought Aberdeen South and concentrating on the government's energy policies and the shortcomings there. That was all very smart. and I think that they worry nastiness and coming over as a sort of, you know, as you say, snarky, always snarky I've actually think generally speaking, she look she has her own style and it's sort of I don't actually think it's a huge problem Really And think I think there is one exception though. I don't mind the class traitor stuff or the you know class warrior stuff. As I say, I think Philipson will be very, very content with that. absolutely fine, particularly given Andy Burnon will be choosing his cabinet. and Starmall was very complimentary about her as well. I do think there is one category of word which is complicated and this is something which we hear in politics more and more which is Treachery and betrayal rayal is a really dangerous word, I think in politics. the sort of stab in the back stuff. Now in fairness tobaynoock, she was talking about members of cabinet, betraying and being traitors. It's hard to think of another word for what happened to I knowa in the past. Well perhaps, but it is a word which you know It is being invoked consistently, particularly by the populist right. and I would just say and I suspect it might be that word. more than spiteful that got Hoyle's ears pricked up because let's not forget that, you know We've had two MP's killed in this country We had we've just gone past the tenth anniversary of Joe Cox's murder And let's not forget the circumstances in which she was killed by a neo Nazi with loads and loads of material at his home basically about this idea that Britain was being betrayed and everything like that. So I'm not saying that Badenock is invoking that there. and it's far more subtle, but I do think the language of betrayal in politics has a very, very long pedigree. and I think senior politicians have to be careful about invoking it in any circumstances really, because we know that there are people out there who hear something different to that which they might intend. I mean, over the Boris Johnson years, it was the Brexit betrayal. was the one that was used constantly the commons to suggest anyone who didn't follow his steps was somehow letting the country down, not patriotic. I would say though, I think there is a huge amount of hypocrisy in all this because the one thing that we have all sort of lauded Kst armor for is restoring dignity to the office, you know bringing back this sense of high office being sort of reputationally sound. And everyone said, yes, you know, he's restored dignity. he's sort of know put us back in terms of good relations What happens to somebody who brings dignity to the office? They get turfed out by their own because frankly, they're not electoral magic. They're not electoral gold dust. Now, I understand why that happens. I'm not naive enough to say, you know, oh, I don't know why they did that or why they got rid of him. you know we've been over that for weeks, but it does seem to me that dignity is a bit of a kind of like the loser' prize now You know, you've done dignity, well done, but yeah, fuck off we still don't want you. And so I do think there's a hypocrisy between saying Oh we're dying to get back to discourse. We're dying to get back to civilised language. We're dying to have this wonderful, warm, sane, comfortable place but actually don't dare lose Yes I't deellies Yeah, look. I think they' they're And this is a debate that has gone on for years and years and years that people say they want A calmer, more moderate Pime Mister' questions? No, they don't They want the spectacle. There's, you know, there's a reason why they it's shown live on TV, most days, you know, most weeks when this Prime Mister's questionions on because you know it's a bit of theatre that is utterly alien to American politics. There's nothing like it anywhere you know in the American political scene. and yet We have this as part of our politics and it is a confrontational politics. You are the leader of the opposition. It's an official u post in the, you know, in the Constitution And you are there to oppose and you're there to kind of and if you're not going to score political points on a day when the Prime minister has been felled by his own party, I mean, for God's sake, when are you? Well, I mean there was one There was one fundamental truth that however she expressed it, Bnock was right about, right whichich is that if they lok if they liked him so much why has he resigned this week? right? which is fundamentally true. And Bayadnoock' spokesperson has apparently told loby journists even while we've been sat here saying that Kamy Badnock will absolutely not apologize for the language she used during PMQs spokesperson said that he thought Badenoock had been nice to Kist Armmer and I tell you with friends like that who needs enemies in the chamber and she felt sorry for him. He said there was very little aimed at the Prime Minister himself. This was about a cabinet which has let him down about a group of labour MPs who have let him down and now they've got rid of him. One interesting sort of thing for the future, of course, is how And the Burnham and Badeenock face off at PMQs because there you have potentially two very contrasting and very different styles. I think we're could to say box office. Well, I don't know. Well, yes, yes, maybe. I mean, look but the thing is in a way, Starmer and bab knock. with sort of a similarish sort of temperament in the sense that Starmer would try and batter her like a lawyer with sort of fact and this that and the other and kind of match her some of maybe not match her invective, but match that kind of the sort of approach that she has How long does Burnham's Mor sort of come by R all come with me kind of like approach, which is like let's work across party and I'm much more gentle and I'm place, not party. How long does that last? How long does that stick last? in the adversarial bearpit that is PMQs against a leader of the opposition who is more adversarial and more pugnacious than most. It' be a very interesting. He was the one was said I mean, years ago and obviously it never happened, but when he was health seecretary He was the one who said we need to find a cross party solution to social care. Now good luck. Well, that's what I mean. There will be millions of people in this country. who say I would like nothing more than to bang politicians' heads together till the parties can work together to deliver a proper defense plan, a proper social care plan, a proper safeguarding children plan and I mean, I don't think you can argue that kind of language makes, you know, makes working together out of reach, but it it does suggest that we're not really at a place where we are going to sort of workking in a rainbow coalition. I think the question about how does Kemmy Bayenk approach Andy Burnham is a really interesting one And I also think how does Andy Burnham approach her You know, on the US. edition, we've been talking about, you know the influence of Zoram Manddani on American politics and how there is this optimism and there is this hope andoy joy about joyoy. pleasure in what he's doing And that's kind of very hard to bat against. I mean, obviously, Kemby Baynut will come and say, wow, but look at the latest unemployment figures or look at the latest growth figures and whatever else. But you know, Andy Burnham, if he keeps that bit of Authenticity as the kind of nice fellow with a smile on his face and I think Kemmy might find that a very diff. I've just been hearing from one of the advisors to her PMQ's sessions. I said, didid she go too far? No, exclamation Mark. She's had to put up with his, his condescending, patronising, sanctimonious lectures as we all have for two years. So there was a sense I guess in that of like right, it's finally coming out Well we done. I'm here. Well We had a little glimpse of what Bernock might say or think about Burnham because she did have something to say about Burnham, of course, didn't she at the very end she said, He's been let down that's kiss arma by backbenchers who don't understand that government is about tough choices. He's you turned again and again and again to appease them and now they've abandoned him, what for? a pair of eyelashes and a black t shirt So Kemy I think St initally means to go on with' going. I mean, that is actually quite flattering. Whereas if you start painting him as the guy who led the heist, the the guy who, you know, led a coup on his own leader. Yeah but the publiced it. Yeah, I'm not, but I'm just saying you're back to the argument or the narrative of betrayal then You betrayed your own party for what That's clear ground where the opposition will probably land. she's still doing with Ed Milliban versus his brother in the election. I think if she just goes on the line of black t shirt and eyelashes. He's okay. I think she's underestimating him somewhat given what he's, you know, given The political operation that has been unfolding over the past few weeks, some of which we've seen in the past week and you know, the Makerfield by election But there has been going on longer than this Andy Burnham is not to be underestimated. Many politicians would kill for those eyelashes. They said the Big Apple had everything. Now, it has more. The wait is over. Live table games have arrived in the Big Apple. Every roll, every shuffle, every spin happens right here. twenty four seven. Only at Resorts World New York City. Experience Blackjack Bakara, Kraps and Roulette. It's not just a whole new world. It's a world like no other. Resorts World, New York City. Gambling phone call eights of an eight Hopen wire text hpen Y four six seven three six nine must be twenty one or older to Gamble' standard message trade supply It's been a hell of a long journey of this. I first got involved in Eururosceptic politics twenty five years ago and the first election I contested, I managed to beat the late great sccreaming Lord suchuch by one hundred sixty four votes, so I didn't come last. And now there are seventeen million people that voted for Brexit. It's a victory for ordinary people, decent people. It's a victory against the big merchant banks, against the big businesses and against big politics. and I'm proud of everybody that had the courage in the face of all the threats, everything they were told, they had the guts to stand up and do the right thing The election was won in my view, in the Midlands of the North. and I think it was the old Labour vote. That was Nigel Farage ten years ago today on the twenty fourth of june when Britain had just voted to leave the European Union.ider had resigned as prrime Minister after gambling and failing that Britain would vote to remain And I stood on the ninth T at Turnbury golf course with Donald Trump as he'd come over to look at his golf courses and saying, well, of course. I predicted all along that Britain would vote to leave the European Union doesn't feel quite as joyous tenen years old Yeah, and obviously this is a moment where there is a lot of introspection about what has happened since. and there was some really, really interesting polling actually, The timees conducted as well as a focus as well as a focus group in Earwash, which was one of those places that kind of determined the referendum in so many ways. And I thought in a way absolutely summed up. they're reporting on it, exactly where the country is, which is you can see not just from this poll, but pretty much from every poll that's been conducted for years now that there is deep, deep unhappiness with the Brexit settlement in every direction, not just remainers you might imagine, but leavers as well quote from the piece that was explaining some of the polling results. It said with very few exceptions The Long Eaton voters we spoke to felt as did the sixteen hundred and ninety adults from across the country survey for us by UGv that Brexit had been a failure. forgotten Disappointing and disastrous were words that were used to describe it, although only one person in the focus group and a small percentage in the polling said that they would change their vote if the referendum will be won, and this is the kind of curious politics that I think we find ourselves in a sort of post Brexit settlement, which is Basically We are deeply unhappy as a country with how the settlement ended up deeply wary about unpicking it because there is this collective memory of the angst and the turmoil and just the political oxygen endlessly that it would suck up to reopen it all again. Yeah. And I think If you cast your mind back, I mean those of you who are old enough to The Brexit campaign What people were being told was that their lives were shit predominantly because We were enthroalled to the European Union, that without breaking free, we wouldn't be able to have sovereignty, we wouldn't be able to have our own growth, we wouldn't be able to have our own trade deals In other words, the narrative that was formed was that everything that is wrong in your life probably goes back in some shape or form our membership of the EU. and what has become apparent in the last ten years is that Without the EU, we have got poorer Our growth hasn't come back, our industry hasn't come back And I'm not saying it was just a result of Brexit because Ever since the financial crash, things have been stalling. We haven't seen wages increase, we haven't seen growth in the economy. This has gone on for twenty years, not just ten But it was essentially a lie that was told to people by a very small, very elite political Kabal who knew that there would be benefits from Brexit, predominantly for the architects of it And it was quite interesting. I was in a room full of people last night. There's a book that's just come out called The Brexit Effects and it has sort of forty different chapters from people across the spectrum. You know I saw Richard Thice was there and I saw Jonathan Sumpson and Marina Wheeler and a lot of people you know from the Lave side, a lot of people from the remain side who had all sort of contributed chapters to this book. And one of those who stood up was Paul Johnson, the economist. and He's quite plain speaking, you know, he doesn't sort of mince his words, but he doesn't comment this from a particularly sort of openly political view. and he just said, look mistake that was made was it's fine to give people a choice between inr out but you do have to spell out. that would actually mean and what that wouldn't mean. and I think you know, I'm sort of paraphrasing some of his words, but He said, it's absolutely fine for people to choose to leave the EU. What wasn't fine for them to pretend that their lives will become richer as a result, because that was never going to happen and it never did happen. Also the whole idea of taking back control, which was the great slogan of that time. I just don't know what it means. Why are we anymore in control? And we look at the cost of borrowing in the bond markets? Are we in control of that? No, the bond markets are in control of that. You know what is happening in NATO? Are in control of that? No, Donald Trump iss still in control of that. And I just think that the idea that somehow this was all worth it I just I find the polling fascinating, but not surprising. I think it's virtually impossible to imagine a circumstance If you think about it seriously, where we go back into the European Union, given the conditions that will be attached to us rejoining, and given what the European Union will be demanding from Britain so that they don't go through another bloody psychod drama with the Brits not sure whether they want to be in or whether they want to be out. I mean just just one bit on the polling that you were talking about, Lewis, when you asked the question, wouldould you support or oppose introducing freedom of movement between the EU and the UK? That was the big tetemic question do we want all these immigrants coming in stealing our jobs and all the rest of it. Now this is just the poll from that one part of the world in Long Eaton It's only twenty percent that strongly oppose or tend to oppose freedom of movement. In other words, eighty percent of people in that poll Now either support it strongly or tend to support it or don't know. Now If that was what the whole thing was about, and if that's the thing that's stopping us from joining the customs Union or stopping us from joining the single market or or stopping us from actually working out an immigration policy now that does work to put more people in care homes, that does work to fill out the jobs in the countryside, that does work to actually provide hospitality and restaurants and all the rest of it with people who don't need visas coming in and allowing them to sort of open seven days a week Genuinely, what's stopping us then? Well, I think There's two really interesting questions about this. and one you've already alluded to, John, which is that Youre right, I, Emily, that freedom is actually really it's stunning. I have to say that was the only bit of the polling that really surprised me that actually and I wonder whether there's part of it which is this, you know, one of the things that people will have experienced in their day to day lives as a result of Brexit, one of the actual enumbances because a lot of the rest of it know largely can affect business and regulation. that doesn't really affect most of us on a day to day basis. but people do see the impact on our ability to travel, the impediments, the fact you can only go for ninety days and any given one hundred and eighty day period, the p queues, you've all experienced know those know I came back from Germany yesterday, I have to say, I did not feel I did not feel the sort of strong fruits of sovereignty as I sat there.. I didn't feel that f have to say, o, I can taste the sovereignty as I did. out of the fle. st I know and you really need to get my Irish passle. But anyway, so I think maybe that is part of it when they hear freedom of movement, that's what they now associate it with those kind of checks in those difficulties. And yet and yet and yet two things in these in this polling as I say There is still a great deal of skepticism about the idea of rejoining. And also, we see guy who was, you know, as he says himself, the sort of godfather, the midwife, you can be both those things at the same time, O Brexit, Nigel Farage's party is leading in the polls And there is this sort of slightly curious disconnect, isn't there between the fact that his signature achievement, political achievement and contribution to British public life. is Brexes and yet he is not discredited by the fact that so much of the population feel that Brexit was a bad idea and has gone badly. And I think that part of the The explanation to that conundrum is that actually reveal not so much in the quant bit of this polling, e the hard numbers, but in the qualitative bit in terms of what people are saying. And I've heard this myself in focus groups, which is people often say that yes, Brexit has been has worked out badly But that is because they think that this is right wrong. They think it's just been done by done. They don't think that it was a problem intrinsically and structural. But Nigel Farache himself says that. himself says that. And those who are anti Brexit I don't think have done a particularly compelling job, mainly because a lot of the remain forces have just left this alone in recent years in actually be willing to say to people actually know that there were structural trade offffs here. It doesn't quite matter what you do And I do that you will have these results. Look, I think that so much of Brexit, right was born. We've talked about this on the show before. it was born partly out of in some cases very, very comfortable people voting for, which we don't talk about enough. peopleeople frankly were so affluent they didn't have much to lose. But it was also, as we know, born from places that even in twenty sixteen you know, were Dire economic straits and had been for a long time and they wanted and they bought into the hope that maybe Brexit would be enough of a jolt to the political and economic system that finally it would incentivize Westminster political elites to think about them deeply, to craft a new economic settlement that worked for them. Now ten years on we see that that hasn't happened. But the people in this polling and these focus groups are saying, they still think it could happen and that it might happen and that they would, rather than unpicking the Brexit settlement like to see a situation where politicians simply try and address and create and make good on the promises that were made ten years ago. I just think a jolt that makes you poorer is not the jolt you want. Although they were poor anyway. Yeah. But you know if you look at what businesses are saying now, they're like, we're not any better off and we've got red tape and I now can't start to do the trading that I was doing before or I can't you know work in Spain or you know that's what one person is there saying. So I mean, again, it goes back to just a huge amount of dissembling, frankly, which is, yes, it was always going to be very, very prosperous for a very small number of probably men who were already millionaires I think this will go down as the greatest act of national self harm that a sovereign nation has inflicted upon itself. You know sometimes wars start and you know Ukraine is bombed to pieces by Russia and has no choice in it because Russia started this bloody thing. We voted for this thing It has left Britain's worse off But the chances of it reversing seem to me negligible because as this polling data shows, people they are no, please please God no. What would vote to back Jo I thought a referendum now. Well, I think it would depend on you see it again if it meant that we had to, you know accept Schenen except Euro except everythingthing else that we had carve outs for. But what if we had the same conditions If we had the same conditions, and I think yeah, I would vote I think we were better off insside the European Un. might think he's evolved on this a little bit over time. I hadard Jeremy Hunts would make a similar point yesterday that I kind of agreed with quite rafy in Jeremy Hunts. You Torory I know, I know. but I I So so are you right? I think it would be tempting if we could have the same conditions as you have before. That would be tempting, I must admit. But I have to say, I do think that you know the truth is the truth is and this is the tragedy of Brexit Brexit was bad for us, was also really bad for the EU Because what the EU has done in the ten years since, we were always the kind of leader of the pack that was arguing for more trade freedoms, less protectionism, less regulation on new emerging industries and so on In our absence, frankly, the EU has gone down the root of more protectionism, there I say, a more dgis French direction, that we were always somewhat battling against, but we were big enough and ugly enough When we're in the club to basically, you know, usually fight our corner more often than not In the ten years since the EU has gone down, I think has become a worse version of itself, as have we. And if you look at A lot of the emerging industries, you know the city doesn't want to go back in now. That's true. They wanted to go stay in, but now they don't want to go back in because they don't want the regulation back from Brussels A lot of the emerging technologies, AI robotics, all of this stuff, gene editing, they don't want us to go back in because they don't want to be regulated under the Brs under the Yokca Brussels reggulation And so although I think, and I was always most concerned partly because the background I'm from of the impact on you know the old heavy industries, car making and things like that, which has been really damaging. It has been really, really damaging. I do think an incoming government now, we would have to or a new vote now, we would have to reckon not with what the EU was, but what the EU has become. And I think that is a more complicated question to be honest I would still welcome political voice brave enough to say, our GDP has gone down. by four percent. four percent. the French economy is doing badly, the Germanconomy do it's not like the EU when we went in, the EU or the EEC at then was booming and we weren't. So it was very attractive for us to go in. And if the EU now we have fallen faster than any of the otherses. We fallen faster, but I'm say And the point is that there is still I hear you, I mean I absolutely hear you, which is why I think any question this ask has to be very kind of thoughtful question. But the idea that we have shut ourselves off from that trading block, when we are in such massive debt, when our growth is not coming in, when we do not see any of the economic benefits that were promised, I think you'd have to be dumb to say I'm not prepared to re engage with that question again. It's too big an amount of money that is within reach if we want to. But I that I think A, as I say, my concern would be in terms of the direction the EU has gone and whether we could correct it and go back to a settlement that we'd be more happy with. And B, my other question we want them to join us really, don't we? Well that was always our attitude unfortunately chanel. C. Yes, exactly. Yes, a channel full of fog, Europe cut off. No indeed. And then the other question beyond an economic one for me as well would be the political one And I'm sure this would Brussels concern as well Has a settled will developed? Eactly among the British population?act that this was a mistake and it needs to be co It's certainly not. And that's the problem, right? So that's why Russs will say you must be bloody joke. Exactly, And that's a problem for us because it could potentially again suck up the next ten years of political oxygen. But it also frankly would be one as you say, John that the EU would likely treat as being completely radioactive Because the last thing that they would want is for their pol kind of want the EEC, don't we? We want to back seventies. Yeah. Well, that's the single market, I suppose we the closest thing. And what's intriguing about that, of course, is that the biggest problem with the single market was always considered to freedom of movement and according to that poll, there you go. It's now fine, although I think we've sort it the Norway oion fine. There we go. I'm always in favor of the Norway option for the personal reasason Right we'll be back in just a moment They said the Big Apple had everything. Now, it has more. The wait is over. Live table games have arrived in the Big Apple. Every roll, every shuffle, every spin happens right here. twenty four seven. Only at Resorts World New York City. Experience Backjack, Bakara, Kraps and Roulette. It's not just a whole new world. It's a world like no other. Resorts World New York City. Gambling prone call eights of an eight Hopen wire text hopen Y four six seven, three, six nine must be twenty one or older to Gamble Stare in Messagerade suppuly There are a lot of very shell shocked people on the night of june twenty third. We hadn't really digested what had happened and we hadn't really got to grips with what was coming at us down the line. But one person who made re prettyty quick decision in the hours after Britain voted out was the then Prime Minister David Cameron