The Return of New Labour Figures

How is TD making banking more human with less bank talk and more real talk? Lless, your call is important to us and more, how can we help It's getting more what you want, and less of what you don't. That's how TDs make you banking more human. This is a global production. The diry little secret of Manchester ism. It's kind of like new labour on steroids. Starmer himself wasn't versse of some of the dark arts when he claimed that Jeremy Corbn was a friend and a colleague and then mysteriously enough he wasn't a friend and a colleague a few months later. It's been brutal and it's been brilliant You may not like Andy Berham. You might be upset about what's happened to Kist Stama. You might think what is wrong with the Labour partarty. but just as an act Political assassination It's hard to fault it. The Starmer again tried to invoke quite dark vision of what Farraage would mean. Whas if you'd had the numbers, you'd have gone for it and you just didn't have the numbers, you're a busted flush Welcome to a specialQion and answer edition of the newews agents and what has been a hugely momentous week. Prime Ministerial spepecial. No, we're talking about the weather Oh right. Let's talk about the weather. and the first question is from Michael T. Rufffo in Eastbourort. People love the weather. I've noticed every news outlet other than yourselves has been talking about the weather this week. So I just wanted to get your views on it. We weather channel, Michael. I know Lewis is a big fan of himself. I'm sorry, of the summer months, and he's often posting selfies taking a stroll on a lovely warm evening But do you think this week has been too hot? Next Welcome to the News agents The news agents It's John. It's Louis. And before sorry, Michael, for maybe not treating your question with the seriousness it desve. the only time I actually think it's hot too hot is when I'm sat in the studio because one Emily the Duchess Matelist decides to turn up the therostat to about twenty six degrees on a regular basis and with being about forty degrees outside, not completely ideal, but given it itss boys only today, we've turned it right down. We've turned while the cat's away Also before we start, I want to make a personal apology to the people of Derbyshire Because on Wednesday's episode we were talking about Eash. Yes. And you said I said E wasash. And I thought, do I correct you? And I was going to correct myself, but I all bored myself even thinking about doing it because I sort of as soon as I said it, I sort of knew it was wrong. I knew it was Eerash. Anyway, about no fewer than genuinely about ninety four people have contacted me in a state of I would say, ranging from amusement to actual fury about it. So I would like to apologize directly to the people of Erawosh for mispronouncing the name and as a bit of compensation, I will be providing special facts about Airwash throughout the course of today's episode to make up for it. So Is there anything else you want to get off the chest? No, Luke could turn this into not full confession session. No, I pay enough to my multiple therapists and so that's well we'll leave that with them. But yes, facts about Arowwash coming up. Something to look forward to. I can't wait for this episode. Sandra Randall has been in touch Do you think that the relentless twenty forty seven news cycle is part of the reason why prime ministers no longer survive full terms in office? How can any PM achieve anything in such short time spans Even a great politician will struggle with competing interests, backstabbing and the media with their own agendas Well, look, this gets to the heart, Sandra of a question that I see a lot online. It's directed at us a lot online. I think we get it and actually a lot of accusations that we're sort of part of it, which is this idea that we are sort of part of a kind of voracious media pack that wants to engineer drama that we sort of feed sort of vulture like leech like of political drama and that in some way we seek to destabilise prrime mininisters and we've got kind of addicted to that kind of sugar rush of the post Brexit period And look, I think that's u I can understand. I can understand why some people feel that I certainly think it's true to say and I'm sure you know, I'm guilty of it as anybody else, sometimes Tonally, I think, not just talking about us, I think talking about political journalism generally. I think that such has been the speed of political events Over the last ten years or so in particular And sometimes adrenaline of it reporting on it is such that sometimes I think maybe tooneally we get the tone wrong about it. we can kind of look sometimes as if we're enjoying it maybe a little bit too much. That's a hard thing to calibrate because like it is our jobs and politics is exciting and it is dramatic and you kind of want to get that across to people. You don't just want to sort of look stiff and bored and all those sort of things. I'm a great believer that you, particularly in broadcasting, if you sound bored or uninterested, why the hell should the audience sound you know pay attention to you? So it's a difficult thing toalibrate. I'm willing to accept that But I think the broader structural idea of it And actually there's one other thing about it. and it's also true to say that with regard to the Starmmer government it is true to say I think that the apers, the right wing papers in particular have been unusually voracious about it. I think you know, he got no honeymoon whatsoever. They went for him really, really quickly and mercilessly I thing I'll just say though is that for Labour Prime Miniss it's not fair, but 'was ever thus ever thus It's also true to say that Starmer actually you could argue, got a really easy press for a long time. You know in opposition, he got a really easy press most of the time, because he was seen as the camm out of hammer to Corbyin and Cunism. And arguably actually and everyone knew he was going to win. So arguably if he'd received a slightly tough press, it might have helped him in the longer term. And I'd also just say and also the other thing about it is that We're actually in a moment now. this is one of my frustrations with Starma. L we're in a moment when the traditional media has never been less powerful. You know the big encumbrance around Labour Prime ministers has been the right wing press. They've never been less powerful. There are now ways to get around them for you to get your message out there directly, to come on shows like this. There's a whole media universe that didn't exist even five years ago. I always felt that the Starmar operation never capitalized on that properly, possibly because the guy himself was ill at ease with all of that stuff But still, so I don't really buy the idea to be honest. I know people don't agree with this and that's fine. I don't buy the idea that the reason the Stalmer government has fallen is because of the media. And I would just say again, I said it on the show yesterday If you don't like the fact we're burning through prrime ministers, which are the prrime ministers would you say we shouldn't have got rid of? Because actually, if you look at them from cameron to StarMa, I accept StAMa's probably the most borderline, but there were very good reasons each and every one of them went. and in each case, it wasn't the media, it was their own political problems. I think the idea of do we enjoy it too much is a really interesting one You know, Lewis, yours and my key performance indicator. We're not producing widgets on a production line. Our key performance indicator is are people listening and if we sound bored, and if we sound well it's not that interesting that we've had a prime ministerial resignation, let's move on very swiftly and we talk in a slightly dull and disinterested voice, then how can we expect people to carry on Listening. I mean, you know, you're bound to be energized because. And whoops, you got it in there. And I think that that is what our job is. And also and I think that people think you know, the question talks about how people have got their own agendas. I don't think we've got an agenda. I think I kind of, I suppose as far as I had an agenda, I thought that we had gone through a peculiarly chaotic period in British politics when it did seem that the Tories were spent. And I suppose I thought, well let's see this might be very different with Stahmer. And then you come to well he's been taking free suits and stuff like that, you think, that's not great. Do we ignore it No we can't ignore it. You've got to talk about the stuff that matters. And we actually poured quite a lot of cold water on these.. And we did say, you know, look, this is kind of small beer compared to some of the other things that have gone on in the past in sleas and sccandal. and you want to give a fair to what he was doingin and I thought it was grown up when he came in and said, lookook, we're not going to fix things overnight Life is complicated. These problems are going to take some years to resolve and for things to improve And I thought that was a grown up message rather than I've got an oven baked dal and it's all ready to go and you know we just pop it in the oven and now it will come I think that, you know, that was all grown up But then the sort of missteps, the U turns, the policies out of nowhere that haven't been kind of rotested and they don't know whether they're going to fly or sink have just been disastrous and I think that You know, Kistama has made a series of misjudgments, which makes it make made it inevitable that the party was going to move against him. Yeah I think as we've talked about on the show many times, the reason that Stalmer went is not because of the media that didn't help. It was because support for him within the Parliamentary Labour Party evaporated. Now I would say that hisis inability to command the conversation, despite the fact that he was Prime Minister to use the bully pulpit of being Prime Minister is part of the reason of his downfall I sometimes think people who make this argument, they're hankering after a different age. You know, whether we like it or not, whether we like it or not We are in this age of algorithmic politics, which I know I talk about a lot, but I think is really important You know successful Prime Ministers who are on the cusp of changes in communications technology, they take advantage of it. You know all the way back to say Stanley Baldwin You know, doing his talking take doing radio addresses for the first time You know, it would have been no good Someone like Gladstone would have been no good at that, I'm sure. But that's the point. Successful prrime Ministers see opportunities in changes in media technology and they don't just complain about it. Wilson, again with television, the first television prime Minister. Blair in the twenty four hour news cycle. you know on and on it goes. They see advantages to it and exploit it in terms of not just getting their message out there, but commanding the political conversation because that is part sustaining an argument, making an argument, sustaining a political project. That is a huge part of being a successful political leader I know that lots of people out there really admire Starmer and they see a guy who they think is you know competent and has integrity and was working hard and he may well have been all of those things. But he's not a civil servant You know, he's not leading a government department you know, he's not a permanent secretary All of those things would be enough if you were, But they're not. He elected to go into politics In order to go into politics, you need to show sustained political skill. and one of those sustained political skills is being able, even when you hate them commommand the media to sustain a message to make an argument and to however hostile the m media is get your message out there. And so I think Insof farar as the media was responsible, for Starmer's downfall. it was his inability, his inability to break through the media and the hostility that he saw which led him to where he was. I also think it is just worth underlining the sort of conversations As a political journalist, you have, with senior politicians who are in the cabinet who obviously can't put their names to something. that they're telling you because it would you know, it'd lead to them being fired. But there was a view that was so widespread in government Kia handling of individual ministers, of deciding on policy, of working out the right political strategy to get a policy implemented. know the classic being the Deence investment planl, which we are still waiting for and have been waiting for for months. and why has it taken so long to get agreement on what this should be. If you are the Prime M minister You should be able to bang heads together, drive this through, know that your rip will run. If you've got a majority of one hundred and sixty, you ought to be able to see off your back benchers who probably are there because you happen to be at the head of the ticket in the general election. and Kistama was never able to do that. And so I just say It's remarkable how little fuss there has been from the Labour Party itself since Kir Starmer announced his resignation And that speaks to me less about it was the media what killed him than it was his own party. It was his own backbenchers, his own government ministers who became so exasperated with the drift in government that they kind of thought, oh go, we've got to go for the nuclear option dump him. I do think that it is true. I mean, part of the question is How can PMs ever achieve anything in such short time spans? I think it's certainly true to say the pressure on politicians to respond to everything is of a different order of magnitude, which is exacerbated clely by social media, the algorithmic politics, all of those things. And I think the media certainly we don't give politicians enough, I think often we don't give them Sometimes there is a sort of fau naivety that we sort of adopt or the media adopts in terms of talking to ministers or interviewing ministers. We sort of pretend as if there's no trade offs involved and that everything can be instant and all those things. And I think if we had a slightly more rational politics, I think it's truts to say that we would have slightly more grown up conversations, but then it's incumbent upon ministers as well, to be honest with the public and to say that And to not in an arrogant way, but in a direct way, take on journalists sometimes and say, you know this is more complicated than yourre letting on. You know that it is. You know I always felt this during the trans debate, for example, you know, when every single minister would be asked, you know, what's a woman? And can a woman have a penis? And I was always just imploring a politician to go, you know, you know what you're doing here You're making something crass and simplistic and stupid in an attempt to get me to say something crass and simplistic and stupid. Whereas you know that actually if I'm being a responsible politician, you know that I'm basically competing I'm trying to balance an array of competing interests and trying to do it in a delicate way and not offend people and all of those sorts of things. And that recccurs time and time and time again. so it's not to say I'm not defending the media endlessly at all because I think There are real deficiencies in how the media operate, but that's why you just need plan for how to deal with it, and I don't think St over happen. You'd have to look at Donald Trump and say that is how you do it. You may not like Donald Trump. And I'm sure an awful lot of people listening, you know will come think, Oh God, what does Donald Trump ever do that's good. He keeps communicating. He keeps telling his story. He goes round the media. He is using social media Brilliant. and he is assisted by it, but he keeps on and on and on. he doesn't back down and he looks and you know, here's this eighty year old president sitting in the White House who is absolute genius in social media messaging and keeping his base on board. Kirama wasn't able to do that We're long way from Harold McMillan being able to sneak off during the Sz crisis as foreign Secretary go read some trollope, of course Where was he reading it? I don't know on the toilet. I don't know. Well, I thought there was going to be an aerir wasash. I thought that was such a kind of awkward. Oh do you want some aerir wasash? Oh yeah, I'll give you some air wash stuff. Okay, you know it's a very important moment for that. Let me just get my whereere's my air wasash f factax going? Oh, here we are Aerir wasash, some airwash fact back. Well, did you know John, for example that Long Eaton, which is in the Arwash constituency, it was once the upholsterory capital of Britain Indeed, at its peak, the town exported sofas and furniture around the world, even today, many well known British furniture brands have their roots there Fascinating. Let's on to the next question, shall we? It's a voice note from Reese Hello, John and Lewis hope you're doing well my question is How long can Andy Burnham sustain his popularity from both within the PLP also opinion polls throughout the country. Is that Rhese or Andy Murray I think that was Andy Murray asking us the question. I don't think Andy Murray would be able to ask anything that interesting. Oh, that is so rude. Andy Murray's really super smart. I'm sure he is, but he's a bit yeah, he's not the world's most dynamic man, is he? I think he's very funny actually. I think he's got that all wrong. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry Andy. Ne next edition of the news agents an apology to So now it's Arrawash Andy Murray, I've got to apologise for. all right who knows? We'll make a trio by the end of the show I'm sure you'll offend someone else before the show's over.. I think that it's a difficult one because What we do I mean, look, Jo picking up from our last question What Andy Bernon does very well is vibes and communicating and having a sense of fun and laughght. He's not the greatest orriator I've ever seen in politics, but he's like Andy Murray. want d part But I think that what you've got with' b me someone who has ridden away brilliantly and saw a door that was slightly ajar pushed it open. and has been, you know, so impressive in doing that How you maintain it when you've you know what we know about Andy Burnham as mayor is the things that he was against. You know I was not happy about the deal for Wpy Women. he was obviously very upset about Hillsboro and wanted things to change. We've now got to hear what Andy Burnham is for and how he's going to articulate that when it might run into you know opposition in the country. And I think that will be a test of whether he can maintain this Good momentum, which I'm sure will give labour a bit of avance in the polls, but I don't know how long it will sustain when you're having to make tough decisions. I think the polling that's out there shows that and I think this is Burnham's sort of big opportunity, last opportunity for the Labour Party really. I think there was a general feeling That the public are willing to give Labour a second hearing. You know, we're not at the point that I think, for example, Rishi Sunak was in twenty twenty two when he took over where it was done. It was done I think there was almost nothing that Sunak could possibly have done that the Baran, the Conservative Party baran, was irredeemably damaged I did speak to people during the Makeerfield campaign Labour people who expressed a lot of concern that the labour brand in Makerfield, how much hostility there was to it, how quickly it had become tarnished. But Burnham clearly, because of his personal popularity confers upon labour the opportunity to redeem that somewhat. And so it's clear from the polling thatab that the public are interested in in Burnham. and you know from what we can see on the hypothetical polling, and it is still hypothetical to this point, there would be a reasonably significant transfer from greens, from reform voters, even some conservatives, live Dem back to Labour push labor underburn them up to the late twenties know, which would be still under polling where they were in a twenty twenty four general election, but wouldn't be bad, would be higher than where reform is now or nipp and t up with them. As you said, John, the question is how easy that will be to sustain And look, ultimately, I think so much of that is on Burnham on the strategy he chooses to adopt, And to what extent that kind of feel good factor can sustain for very long And I think one thing, I think you said it on the show yesterday, I think one thing that Burnham will not do and one lesson I think he's learned from Starmer is he will certainly not adopt the kind of hair shirts Grab. characterizeed Stmer from his earliest days from which he never could escape really. know people will remember, listeners to the viewers will remember comoming into office, the country clearly desperate for bit of hope, that sort of feeling of change and holding that press conference where he basically said things are going to get worse for you get better. Basically adopting the twenty ten Osborne. The problem is with that is that fourteen years had passed And the country was in no mood to hear it in the way that perhaps it was in twenty ten So I think that happy warrior happappy warrior kind of feeling that I think has done Burnham enormous amount of good. I think they will try and sustain. And I think I think their approach T Farraage will be substantially quite different to that of Starmer. Starmer again saying this was the wrong strategy, but Starmer again invoked a kind of you know, quite almost a kind of a popoc elipic sense. It was a dark try to invoke quite dark vision of what farraage would mean basically try to set it up as, you know, it's the forces of us against darkness really. I don't think Bernham will do that in the same way. you know, or at least if he does, it will be a change from what he's done up to now. Up to now he's tried to basically say, look You know, I want support from reform voters. I'm not going to demonize reform voters. know I'm just going to adopt a sort of more positive message about ourselves and labour and working with other parties. So I think the question is is to what extent that difference in disposition. sustains and how long he'll be able to sustain it in terms of a polling bouts. But if he does, if he does, I really think we'll be talking about a general election quite quickly. We'll have more of your questions in just a moment and more fascinating facts It's about eir wasash. It's about canals. It's all cubwit Patrick loves dining out. Omar loves takeout. And Katie, she cooks from scratch. Because no two people are the same, so their credit cards shouldn't treat them the same That's why we made the TD cash credit card. It lets you choose which spend categories earn unlimited three percent cash back, like on dining, groceries, or gas. It's how TD is making banking more human. Terms and conditions apply Ctd. com slash cash for details. Right before we go to the next question, John, did you know that Britain's first successful canal tunnel experiment happened in Airwash. The Airwash cananal was one of the engineering triumphs of the nineteenth century that helped fuel the industrial revolution in the Midlands. So where would we be without it That is truly I I'm going old We do an OB from there. Yeah, let's do fromom the Airwash tunnel. Yeah. Big time. In the dark. Emily, I love that. In the dark. No signal. The light Really hot. Yeah love that. Yeah. abbssolutely perfect. Right. Good. Well, the next question is from your neck at the woods, John, sort of that Australia. Catherine Barris says this would Burnham have been been as compelling a replacement if he had won the Gordon and Denton by election, given he would probably run to the left to consolidate the left vote and would not have been perceived as a reform slayer? Was it another political miscalculation of Starmer to block Burnham from running? Well that is a great question. when we were up in Makerfield last week where that was precisely the question that you raised about, you know, how different This could have turned out and how differently Andy Burnham would have been perceived if he had been sort of facing off against the Greens and that you know, he had to go and into a Dutch auction with the Greens about how left wing you were going to be. And would people have felt the same way about him if he had runun there. Look, I think it's true Burnham campaign This has been the most extraordinary coup d'ar that has happened in British politics in the sense that it was so kind of brilliantly done that you within moments of him winning a by election, you felt that Stahmer was done. I think that it would have probably been the same if he had fought, Gorton and Denton, and I think there was an extent to which Stalmer was trying to sort of stave off the inevitable by delaying and saying you can't run there and then being forced into it later on. Yeah, I genuinely think this is one of the great counterfactuals and will be one of the great personit counterfactuals of recent years. I can understand why Starber blocked it and it seemed like the logical thing at the time. But without a doubt, as we said on the show in Makerfield, I think if he'd been fighting against the Greens, he would c would certainly have tack left. I think the selection of Makerfield is going to genuinely affect our politics in a way that if it hadd been in Gorton it would have affected our politics in a different way we've got a prime Mister Yes, he' got a big majority now because he had such a sensational win. But I do think it will change the character and kind of tenor of our politics that we have got a prime mininister, not just with a seat in the North of England But in the Red Wall as opposed to North London, I think that would be a big difference. Morris Glassman The rather peculiar labour peer was saying the other day.c. He's an interesting guy, but he's quite peculiar. He represents an increasingly unusual tradition of the Labour Party. He says some interesting and slightly un peculiar things. But anyway, he was saying the other day that basically there's proof that there is a god because he is set up B will become the MP for Makerfield, which will take him down the sort of blue labour tradition that he represents of more socially conservative, sort of slightly more liiberal, anti immigration, all those sorts of things And I think it really, really will matter. and if I think if Starmer, if we think about the counterfactual now, if Starmer had allowed him to stand them And he'd won I think it would have been F far less likely because it before the local elections that the Labour Party would have crowned him There would still have been more political support for Starmer within the Parliamentary Labour Party. I think it would have been harder for Burnham tos d turn down a cabinet job. So we probably would have been in a situation where he would have been in the cabinets and it would have been easier for him to challenge after the local election. So I kind of feel we would have ended up in the same place But certainly that proof of concept that he is a reformed slayer to use Catherine's phrase there been much the weaker. and I think it might have meant might have means that he, A Burnham, would have been more likely to face a challenge, but with the momentum he got from that vi election, as we see potential of that challenge and there is discontent in the Labour Party. Not everybody in Labour Party likes Andy Burnham. makeake no mistake. There's lots of people waiting in the winds waiting for him to fail, but right now they know that collapsed like like a house of cards. they just knew that they couldn't stand against this oncoming tide. I mean, the genius of Burnham and we'll see what it's like when he has to govern and when he's got keey cabinet decisions to make and all the rest of it But the genius of Burnham has been He has being slightly on the left and slightly on the soft left and then slightly blair right and he's sniffed political wind and the way it was blowing and adjusted to it. and that doesn't make him a flip flopper or kind of insincere. I think that's politics. That's what you have to do in politics. You know where the wind is blowing and if you kind of set yourself against it, you get knocked over by and large. Hes sensed that and he's also sensed where opportunity might present itself And this whole operation that went on with, you know, Josh Simon resigning the seat and setting up the by election andy being confirmed as a candidate knowing that Kiestama couldn't stop him then winning the by election after terrible local council election results. I mean it's just been It's been brutal and it's been brilliant. I mean, you know, you may not like Andy Bernam. You might be upset about what's happened to Kirama. You might think what is wrong with the Labour Party. But just as an act of political assassination It's hard to fault it We've got another voice note now and this is from we're getting around the world stage Jn. You'll like this the old Amile Soopel over there. Voice note here from Neil from Bangalore Hi John, Hi, Emily. Hi Lewis, huge fan of the podcast. I'm Neil, a public policy student from Bangalore in India. and I wanted to ask about Andy Berham's immigration policy, given the fact that Shabana Mahmud is likely to remain the home secretary. I have been seeing a lot of my friends who want to study in the UK scrap their plans, basically studying in Europe because of costs and because of the tough immigration rhetoric I think one of the UK's biggest soft powers is its attraction of global talent to its universities. So what do you think that Andy Burnham is going to do on this particular topic is he going to double down basically saying he is fine with the idea of lesser students coming in to study in the UK Or is he going to change that perception returning the UK back into this kind of educational soft power that it once was. Love the podcast and I hope you guys answer the question Fantastic. I love the fact that we've got kind of kneel in Bangalore wanting to obe in Bangalore? Oh, yeah, I'm up for it. So we're doing we're doing the Awashh tunnel Canal tunnel then Bangalore. And Bangalore used to be where the English Army officers, British army officers would go to retreat because it was a nice temperate climate. We can't when we round the E Belh facts No for sizees. Oh I'm sorry.king did you know, the Ilkston in the Arwash constituency has one of the UK's biggest annual charter fairs. Dating back to twelve fifty two, the Ilkston Chter Fair is among Europe's largest street fairs stretching for nearly a mile. Indeed it is so big John that schools and many businesses close while it's inwn. I mean they close anywhere at the moment. schools Yeah because it's too hot. T too hot for the little ones. everyveryone so got so wokeed. So it was hot of my day. It was hot of my day Yeah we just let the kids boil today. Yeah exactly. It was good for them. Let me on with it. Should we answer the question? Or do you want to go off on your street fares? I'd love to anytime I think that the immigration question is really an interesting one because I think that Andy Burnham's instincts and particularly having, you know fought off reform had been the reform slayer to use from the previous question that he can't do anything that looks like he's soft on immigration. The other part of your question, Neil, which I think is really interesting is the fact that the universities in the UK would love to be attracting more foreign students because that is what's keeping a lot of higher education institutions in this country afloat but by the number of people who come from India or wherever it is around the world, China and the like. And if they feel that it's more and more difficult to come to this country and you're not welcome and it's you know tougher and tougher then I think that hits us as well. It hits the higher education sector in this country, which is really At the moment. Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think it's clear, lookook, Shabal M Mud She was an early convert at Sam Burnham. Sheed played her cards very well. So my understanding is is that she basically approached Burnham, you know, we're talking about the Tail in last year Even though there was a lot of speculation at that time that she herself might run for Ler, I think she recognized that her profile within the party wasn't in the right place because kind of seem saw intuitited which way The political winds were going to blow and became an early sort of burn of convert. So it looks likely she's going to stay as his home secretary and indndeed has convinced him Partly again because of being in Maker field and you know the sort of constituency that he has, that it is vital. that her immigration reforms continue and that labour has continued to be seen as tough on immigration Of course, it does remind us of the fact that Burnham, just like Starmer can't get away from the trade offs that characterize the Starmmer government. You know, Starmer comes in at the start of his term in office and says that growth is the number one priority It's not necessarily true to say that if you have loads more immigration, you get loads more growth. If that were true, then when we had a million immigration we would have had, you know sort of five percent or something like that in terms of growth. But it is true to say, as whereest streeting has been arguing that you know, there is potentially an opportunity right now in Britain to hoover up quuite a lot of this high value migration, academics, scientists, engineers leaving the US, PhD students, academics, all of these sorts of people. And we could say, look, Britain is open Oen for business, opening its doors to this high value migration Will Bernham be willing to do that? Can he make that argument in a way that Starber might not have been willing to do? It'll be a really interesting test case, notot least John. becausecause of course, One of the really fascinating things about Burnham and Burnhamism or Manchesterism is that kind of like the dirty little secret of Manchesterism is you can make an argument, business friendly socialism. It's kind of like new labor on steroids. It's basically courting loads of foreign direct investment. Why is Manchester such a booming city right now? It's because it has it's not because the state's been spending tons of money. It has been courting foreign direct investment, Chinese money, Middle Eastern money, saying come and invest in Manchester. We'll provide you with know special dispensationational tax breaks or wh whatever it is, working with this as Burnham talks about it public sector, private sector working together to regenerate this great industrial city, very similar to the sort of mood music and policy that we saw in the new labour area. isn't very blue labour. Let's put it that way. So you know Burnham will it will be a fascinating thing to see to what extent Burnham, if he's intent on transporting that Manchester model, one of the things it might actually genuinely mean is opening the door to high end high skilled immigration that can bring growth and gross value added One more question, this one from Jonathan. I think I know where Jonathan stands on a certain issue about former cabinet member by the question. Given where Streeting is a treacherous and duplicitous individual who was planning to topple Starmer from the start and is likely to do so again with any future leader, he is also despised by frontline NHS workers for the use of language He chose to describe striking doctors. What would you do with such an odious, treacherous character if he were the new leader? Personally, I'd tell him to wind his neck in and focus on improving his five hundred majority in his constituency and send him to the back row of the back benches. Jonathan, you must learn to say what you really think. So my third apology is going to have to be to Westreeting On behalf of the show U for U have it for you reading out that he's treacherous and duplicious, heaven forbid. We're straight now He's very loyal I mean, West Treaty is When he did that interview with you the other Friday I did listen to him kind of gasper a couple of occasions where I thought my God, he is really pulling the cabinet curtain back and telling us what had happened in cabinet meetings only a few days ago. And I do think that may have cost him some support. And so I'm fascinated to see what Andy Burnham does with West streeting in terms of does he feel on a bound to give him a job because he didn't force a contest or does Andy Burnham feel slightly contemptuous of that? Because you know what? where if you'd had the numbers, you'd have gone for it and you just didn't have the numbers, you're a busted flush. Yeah, I don't think that Burnham's going to feel the ow strreing a great deal. I think there are lots of people to whom he will owe jobs and who have been absolutely central in arranging and organising this extraordinary extraordinary and bloodless coup. Lu Hag, the former T transport Secretary, Anies Midley is an MP that most people viewers in this probably haven't heard, but we're going to hear a lot more from, I think in the fure possibly Ed Millibant too, who knows. But I don't think Streeting will be among them. I suppose Streeting I mean, you know, in his defense he would say that he was being loyal to the Labour Party, that he saw the writing on the wall with Starmer He was willing to go out there and say it in a way and most of his cabinet colleagues were saying and thinking exactly the same thing, but he actually went out there and said it. Was he thinking about his future prospects Of course he was, but he's a politician. He's wanted to be Prime Mister since you know, since he was in the womb basically. I mean, you know, that's not an ignble thing. It's not a surprising thing. There are always ambitious people In the cabinet, Starmer himself wasn't people don't want to hear this versus some of the dark arts, you know When he claim that Jeremy Corbn was a friend and colleague and then mysteriously enough, he wasn't a friend and a colleague a few months later, you know said that he thought that the twenty nineteen manifesto was a starting point for everything and then disavowed it a few months later. You know This is politics, you know, this happens. so I think Bernam will be thinking in Streeting's favour, I think the reason they'll end up in the cabinet in some job or other is that You know, streeting wh whether you agree with Jonathan or not that he's treacherous and duicilicious, he is a very good communicator. He's clearly one of the best communicators that the Labour Party has got. The Labour Party doesn't have nearly enough of them, so youd probably want them in a cabinet. And also, if Burnham wants to show that the Labour Party he's bringing a cabinet together of rivals but also of different factions of the partarty, he is a sort of standard bearer of what you might broadly call a bllairright right of the Labour Party. So you know you'd sort of say, this is a cabinet which is representing every tradition and every wing. and if you didn't have streeting inn, then it would be difficult to sustain. I tell you what I'm fascinated by the dominance of a generation of special advisers. Oh it's amazing who started off when Blair and Brown were in their pomp. the new Labor era. We' werere returning to it because C Starba wasn't part of it, but we're returning to at the you know, say you've got Andy Berham Wh was a kind of onene of the special advisors early on in the Blair Brown years. You know, he's brought back in James Panll to be the chief of staff at number ten. againgain, one of those people. David Millibaman,id Millib foreign.id Miliban Douglas Alexander, the list Yvete Cooper. The list goes on and on. Tim Allallen, who was the briefly you know K Thaler's press secretary. all these people who were special advisers back in the early nineties are still the dominant force in British politics today and will be holding key cabinet positions and key positions within There's a whole documentary to be done about all these people who just grew up grew up under theut pitching it pitching it has he anyy commissioners listening? Yeah, exactly. You know under the tutelage of Blair and Brown You realize what dominant political figures they were You know if only there were a journalist at the time, who knew all of these characters and who had chronicled it to such an extraordinary extent And who could bring that to the just a little plug. alsoso' talking about plugs just before we break one more time. Did you know, John that the world's oldest surviving gas powered street lamps are in nearby Nottingham Road cemetery gas lamps in A wasashingon installed in the eighteen eighties They're still lit by gas rather than electricity. You probably reported on it when they're installed. Yeah exactly. Okay Draw the line between eror wasash and tooting I'm sorry. Draw the line. Yeah. What links? Airwash and tooting. What links to curry houses? I don't know. arere therery houses So Arawash's most famous son is the actor Robert Lindsey who played Wolf in Citen Smith and the Tooting Liberation Front Well, there you go. You see There you go. I out aerwashed you. You have out aerwashed me. A sentence in so many ways I never thought I'd hear you say. We'll be back in just a moment How is TD making banking more human? withith less bank talk and more real talk? Less, your call is important to us, and more, how can we help? It's getting more of what you want, and less of what you don't. That's how TD's making banking more human. Hi newews agents, loveove the pod. At the time of writing, it's possible England could face Scotland in the knockout stages of the World Cup. Could be different by the time you're reading this. I think batt. They got battered last night. Yeah. Anyway, my question is, how should a PM go about supporting a team in a match with two nations in the UK as another Brit married to a Norwegian. higher Nor Nordiga. Norda Nordiga. Ha Nordga. that's from Max Susan Tarkmax Well, it reminds me of like, you remember when Brown was asked about would he be supporting England in the World Cup And he said, Oh, absolutely. thenen he said, Wh if they face Scotland? Who would you support then? And he just froze and he didn't know what to say. And obviously the answer should be like, we support Scotland. because you're Scottish, but he just didn't know How to deal with it? Andy Murray got in trouble for that. That's what left to him being very unpopular. I didn't think Andy Murray would be You know my views on Andy Murray, Joh? Well, we've heard those and you have to apologise