Harry Collett on Jace's Final Moments

The official Game of Thrones podcast is sponsored by Chase Sapphire Reserve for Business. I'm Lonnie, co founder of Zoeic Studios and one of the directors of House of the Dragon Season three From traveling to set to turning ideas into action, I'm always on the go Contemplating our next move, our next shot One fourteen take one, Mark. It's a gride but it's what I love. Nothing is more rewarding than the collaborative power of creativity. For world builduilders everywhere, the business card that gives back all you put in, Chase Staffhire Reserve for business. Cards issued by JV Morgan Chase Bank and a member of F DIC sububject credit approval terms apply getet word to Lord Corulis in the Gllet, I require ships to deliver fighting men enough to secure the city. Your grace, I protest this action with all. must return with haste. I'll write to him. We' fight a King's landing in two days' time take the city. Welcome back to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Jason Cpion. And I am Greta Johnson and we are back for season three. and it is officially all out war And man. Sting with a bang this season. It really is. We get to see a battle the likes of which Westeros has never seen before That's right. todayoday we are talking all about the season three premiere of House of the Dragon, which was written by showrunner Ryan Condle and directed by Lonnie Peristere. And we have the perfect guest to kick off this season with our good friend of the pod Ryan Condle Tal about this season opener and the brutal Battle of the Gullet Plus We'll be joined by Harry Collette, who plays Prince Jace about filming that battle sequence and some of the key choices Jace makes in the premiere. And if it's not obvious, this is your spoiler warning. If you have not seen the season three preremiere, go watch it and let come back To war then C to die For the Dragon queen Very good We've got more lions to hunt So Jason,, it hasn't been that long since you and I talked about Westeros with the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Different vibes here, huh Much more brutal and deadly vibes, Yes, I would say so. So yeah, how do you think this episode works as a seasoned premier Oh my gosh. I mean it feels like you're shot out of a canon. Yeah. quQuite literally with the opening with in the Vail with Sheep Stealer, you know and a tremendous amount of action, a tremendous amount of forward momentum that carries over from the end of last season. It's it's A lot to take in all at once and tremendously exciting. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, it's so wild to think about how different the tone is already of this season. I mean, by the end of season two, there were so many chess pieces on specific places and we knew that we were going to start with action. but I still didn't realize the scope and scale. of this battle The fact that we're fighting on different fronts. I mean, it's not. I mean, that's a good point. You've got a battle you've got battles going on in the riverlands. you've got battles here in the Crownlands, you've got battles on land, sea and air, which is something we have not We saw it towards the end of Game of Thrones But Not to this scale with multiple Adult dragons fighting each other, fighting ships peopleeople getting beheaded on land. you've got an intense naval action, the likes of which we've never seen before. it's a spectacle. It is a huge spectacle. It's stressful. It's amazing. Yeah Okay, so let's start by talking about Rhaenyra. She is considering Allicon's offer from last season. Remind us what that offer was. Alllicon's offer was Let's in the work today I will Throw open the gates You come in, seize the city and the war. I will make sure that Amond is Aw from the city. He'll be in Harrenhall with Vagar so you can fly your dragons in uncontested and as a way to seal the pact She agrees that Rhaenyro will be able to execute Aegon, the king. in return Allicent and Helena will be protected And that is the deal And I think it's, you know, as the as Misaria, the White Worm says Pretty low price. Yeah, honestly not bad at all. It really does seem like Allison is looking for peace here She's looking for a way out. She's been dealing with the family drama her whole life. you know, kind of you know, against her will to a certain extent she's had agency for Not very much of her run. and here she is basically looking at the board and saying, if things go on as They are seem to be going There's going to be countless lives lost. We're all going to lose family members. cities are going to be destroyed as we saw at the end of last season. And so we can do we can go about this much more easily with much less destruction and much less death. this way. and I I can see the rationale I think what we see, especially in the beginning of this episode, like the concern I had, I think Allicant is to be trusted, but I don't know that she has enough control over the situation to actually facilitate what she has promised. And I think the fact that Egon is gone now is a huge piece of that, right? So can she do this? Right? Can she move the piececes? I believe that she wants to? I just don't know that she can Yeah, I mean, Alisent, when she gets back, it's like, whereere have you been? Just the walk What are you talking about? Let's talk about the meeting between Aliceent and Aammond. It's very tenense meeting, a lot at stake. Allicent needs Amon to leave the city. He's not planning on doing that anymore because he's king and he wants to sit in the chair for a bit and he makes a good point that We need a dragon over the city Your thoughts on this Confrontation Well, this is the part of the plan that has gone awry the most, I would say since Allicon has made her plead to reigner But now that Eggom's gone Aemond is on the throne That's a totally different ballgame. and she knows that, which is why she has to be as strategic as possible begging him. peace out for a minute. Yeah, Vagar can't be over the city. And Vagar is there then it's it's a g real real, real problem. Maybe they could take him down. maybe they can't, but it's going to be a very destructive fight And so it's better that he's gone. And of course Aman is like, well I'm king now and I'm not leaving. Let's listen to a clip from that conversation If you stay here and wait for Rhaenyra and her dragons to come, this one is certain So courageous. Hownot believe she was head did e. I will be lost. Heed me, Amon, please Okay, well, start with the headline. It seems like he's going to go. That's good Is that the headlight So that's good That is good. Yes, that's good. That is good Well, this is in line with what we No mad ament. We've seen him searching for a mother figure in the past. That's true. you're right. We have And u And here he is acting on that in a way that is both in line with culture of the Targaryen family and also I was gonna say you're justifying this cir. I mean, I'm trying not to. You know, a lot of this season and the previous seasons has been about looking at the tarans through the lens of And I think sce like this is a good example of why the regular people are like I mean, yeah, I don't know about these. Uhhuh Me neither. And what an incredible acting job Oh my God. Yes. The performance is unbelievable. Well, the direction too, because I feel feel like it's like watching it for the first time, I was like, wait They're not Oh my God, they are He almost leans in earlier but then kind of comes right Yeah and they're just close enough, but you're like no No that's not. But then again, like it's so well done and horrific. is horrific. Yeah. There's one more thing about the scene that I want to ask you about, which is around, I mean Allisent essentially says You should have been king all along. Like you're second born and that's a bummer because you would have done a better job than Aegon did And I'm curious to hear your thoughts about that. My interpretation is I don't think she's just buttering him up at that point. I mean, I think It's helpful that it does. like I think it fits with her motivations, but like I mean, it does seem like he probably would have been a better king than Aegon anyway, right I don't know it's I feel like we saw glimmers from Eggon Mhm. as king that made you feel like maybe he'd be okay that he'd listen to people because he understood maybe that he didn't know what he was doing on a certain level, whereas Aemond I mean, it takes Allisent a lot to convince him here and Is he going to listen to his advisors, particularly advisors who aren't wararriors or who he can't kiss. Right. And so I don't know. I think he would be marginally better, but it's unclear Yeah, well, speaking of Eegon, he is in a little Carriage with Laris, How are those two doing these days mean, I think bothoth better and worse than Maybe we expected Very funny pair of these two. They are a pretty delightful combo turns out. I don't know. How do you feel like Aegon is going to do out in the on the road without his regalia, without people respecting him? I don't know. I mean, I wonder if we're seeing the beginning of a redemption arc with Egon. It's gonna be a really interesting just to see that journey But let's play a clip. Let's do that of these two because I do think to your point about the pairing There's like an almost comedy to it that's like actually quite delayful. very lucky day for you, my lord reason This man won't swear feilty to Rhaenyra is because he is Aegon Targaryen. What No, no. That's What are you playing at friend? Always Jesty. That true? No. No. Of course not. These are lies. He was ustrated in Dragonfire by Renist Targaryen and her Dragon at the Battle of Ro's Rest. My companion is always the gift m, His grace always m loyal cs for and Lord of outrageous fucking lies! Someone's line His crown, no I got the crown. you the crown,? What do you need to say? It's like why just pull the hood back, J look at the hair. what's left in the hair I know. Vy midnight run Can you remind us where these two are geographically? just because I feel like we need a sense of the map in this episode. They are heading to Bravos, where Laris has some money by with the Iron Bank Money is going to be an issue, obviously for Aegon And both of them are kind of cut loose from any support system. So They're not going to be able to do much without cash. although that seems like it's not going to be a problem anymore Yeah, that is a good point. So what do you make of this play? I mean, like I was pretty surprised for Laris to just out hang on like this I mean, I think it was It's a risk. It's being a risks. I think it was the only move left available to them if Egon was not going to be able to do the very simple thing of pretend to be somebody else and just swear to the queen. And that's true. He could have just done that. Just swear the queen. Nobody's gonna to know it's you.. No this will all be forgotten in five minutes time couldouldn't do it because of his own u you know, regal inclinations and the deep well of anger that he holds towards her. I get it But at that point to do you know, they were gonna to kill him right there. What do you think of the pairing between Eggom and Laris? Like I mean, I mean, I find this scene funny partly because it's like the smallest bit of edic relief that we're getting in this very intense episode But like, I don't know, wouldould you call them friends at this point? I mean, they they're allies of convenience. Yeah. Yeah they need each other. Again, Egon is not I think he would last five minutes in the woods without anybody? A thousand percent. And Laris having some sort of bargaining chip Yeah even though he lacks any control of it in Egon, I think is interesting. And Laris is qu quite C clearly one of the most resourceful characters we've ever seen. It's a wonderful two hander that You know, that's just like I'm very hopeful this was one of the great two handers and then kind of history of Game of Thrones the Universe a show that has really leaned on these kind of pairings time. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that too you U Okay, let's talk about the Riverlands because as promised at the end of last season, We're in it. or is happening has happened Damon is there. He seems like he's won a nice Victory over the lannters. Boodter on the face. Lots of blood spatter I can't believe the Lannisters actually take lions into battle. That's neither here nor there very sad. Damon's plan remember from last season was he'd been sent there to rally the riverlords to his cause. and it was Um There was a lot of drama involved in that. He was going through it at Harrenhall where Alice giving him or he was experiencing all these crazy visions, remember, including a vision of Daenerys hatching the dragons far off in the future and the Whitewalkers is far beyond the north. So he's seen things that happen in in you know hundreds of years from now And he does manage to win the Riverlords to him. And here they are marching around and seem to be doing pretty well. That does mark the entrance into the story of A really interesting element from the North. These are the winter wolves from the North. So it's winter right now. But obviously winter is much more intense in the North And in the North U When winter falls They send all the kind of like older wararriors, third and fourth sons a way to go do war elsewhere in the kingdom because they can't feed them and so go and fend for yourself. So these are who these are. These are these older warriors who Nobody wants to, you know, there's not enough food to feed them,ot enough fuel to keep them warm up there in the north. So why not go and make war down in the south? And that's what they're doing. Well, and I love how they put it. They didn't say we've come to fight for the dragon quQeen. They said we've come to the diet for the dragon quQueen I mean, they know that this is a one way ticket Yeah. and they that is the culture of the North Yeah So it kind of seems like part of this episode is everybody's waiting on Aimond I mean, yeah, he's supposed to come to Cole's aid. Right overver in Harrenhall. They're waiting to take Harrenhall from Damon's forces and hopefully lure him out and take him off the board I think the greens see Damon And rightfully so as Rhaenyra's core strength and that All her other dragon riders, like the dragon seeds are either untested Or Damon's the one who's been fighting so Hopefully Amond will go there and can best him. It's a big deal I am still obsessed with Kristen Cole and his like philosopher poet stage of life. Snap. Very nihilistic. Snap out. I think it's great. I think we need that perspective. No, it's true. mean Recall from last season When he sees the destruction Wrought by dragons on men on the ground. Yeah He just thinks What are we What do it matter? What are we supposed to do You know, how am I supposed to fight this? What can we do? and too your point, he I think feels that he's marching into certain death at some point, whether it's today or tomorrow or next week. And it's going to be via an enemy that he can't fight against. And he's just waiting for that to happen. Yeah. Meanwhile, Gwayne is thinking about like all the niceties of war and ethics and morality and Cole is just like you realize where you are man? Let's play a clip of philosopher, Cole talking to Gwayenne Punishment is due, yes but also A statement to the men. that we are not beasts But nights and soldiers of honor. Look around you, Sir Wayne Look to this sky. To the horizon Doom and ruin surround us We'll all become beasts before end. Only if we abandon our principles I think it's refreshing to hear someone talk about their principles. I do think it's that I'm also left thinking yeah hang a guy then, then hang him. Yeah. Why are you waiting for Christian Cole, the Lord commander of this arrmy, just gave you permission to hang the guy? So hang the guy. Yeah. And this idea that you are then going to make some speech or Cole is going to make some speech about principles and there are oaths as warriors and knights. I think the hanging would make that That lesson quite plain in a way that the probably the men would understand better than the speech. And so just, you know Gay, what are you waiting for? J just hang the guy Why hasn't Krist Cole just like pieced out into the woods? Where's he gonna go? Sure I suppose you're right. Yeah. So he can just like hang in the tent and like paint and whatever and then that's fine. Well, I think he You know, he's from Dorne and he's a different sort of person then Gayne and for many of the people who inhabit the strata that he has been tr. Yeah. He's always been kind of an outcat. He's from a more hard scrabble beginning And so for him, this is what he knows, is fighting and war. and this is it, you know, And I think it's his inability to his understanding that The war is going to turn on dragons, not that anything that he does that has him feeleing like this. I wonder how effective that makes him as a leader though No because're person Yeah not effective at all. Just in the sense that, you know, if if my general is Pm pretty sure we're all gonna die and kind of is resigned to it Yeah, not best. And doesn't care that much about it. Um I feel like I'd be looking for somebody with a more sunny kind of outlook. We be like, we can make it guys You know, who else is waiting for Vhaggar to show up Ca. O ourur bastard buddies. Our bastard buddies the Dragonseed Ha stands for. T, Adam. Of and Adam Hugh has the Big Dragon Verithor. Of has Silver Wing, beautifully named. And of course Adam is on sea smmoke, justust kind of chilling. Dragona out in the out suburbses, man. I just like dragon seas. Yeah the big themes to me of this episode is just these untested, like, you can't just put people on dragons You know? I think Jace cooked with that. Jace was had the right of that. Now Jase was, you know, there was a selfishness to it in the sense that Jace was saying, hey If It'n't our whole family's thing that we're the only ones who can do this And if you then start allowing these other figures to come in. doesnesn't it dilute our our right to power in the eyes of the people, doesn't it make us less than these kind of neo gos that people app I think we are, and I think spending five minutes with the Dragon seeds would disabuse you of any notion that people could need to be special in any kind of way to ride the dragons Yeah, no, for sure, especially in this scene, right? I mean, they're really just like hanging out. I think Adam and Hugh are both responsible, which is good But I still just feel like the three of them together Unsupervised troubles me U Okay, so we have an interview with Ryan Condll coming up. We're going to get into the battle with him Yes The official Game of Thrones podast is sponsored Chase Sappire Reserve for Business. I'm Lonnie, co founder of Zoe Studios. We're aFX company that works on House of the Dragon. Our goal is to create epic TV. Building a business is its own epic adventure. In visual effects and shows of this scale, details Matter, where every minute of screen time equals thousands of minutes of people time. We take big swings and refuse to think small For world builduilders everywhere, the business card that gives back all you put in, Chase Sapphire reserve for business. Card issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, and a member of F DIC sububject to credit approval terms apply. Well Ryan, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for being here for this wild ride of an episode Oh, yeah, thanks guys. Thanks for having me. I can't believe it's been two years already. These things l. It seems like I was saying to somebody the other day, it seems like it's like a few months and then also like ten years all at the same time. That's Exactly what I was ye.'s yes, it was just yesterday and also a very, very, very long time ago that we last spoke So how did you decide to start this season with such a huge episode. I mean, this is This is a battle. I think the scale of which we haven't really seen in Westeros up until now Yeah, I mean, this was always the thing that I had on my, you know, pinned to my cork board from from really the very beginning because this this has haunted me Uh, from from the moment that the pilot became, you know, somewhat of a, you know, reality. in the back of my head back in, you know, twenty nineteen I was just going, how the hell do you make the Battle of the Gullet? Because it's such a seismic event in this piece of the history. And like, look, it's incredible spectacle. very exciting for a lot of different reasons, but it's also this major turning point in the war, bothoth on the grand scale because Rhaenyra kind of loses her Ny as a result, but also, you know, in a personal level, she obviously loses, you know, loses her son and her heir. And it just felt like, you know, Game of Thrones kind of u set this Uh, this almost unique to it rhythm of the big thing happens at the end and or at the penulttimate episode right before the end. And usually the opener for them was the new setting of the tables. you know, time has moved forward a little bit. People are in slightly new places're catching up, reminding everybody where they are. And we said, hey, it's been two seasons of that. Wouldn't it be fun to just come out of the gate and just break all the toys, but it just felt fun to just sort of break the rhythm of our own show, the story rhythm that we have and just come out of the gate with a big bang And then what are they going to do what are they going to do next? Yeah. And and I think it sets the season off in a really interesting way that just keeps people on Hopefully on their back foot in a good way. Yes. This battle is so massive and it takes place on land, air, and sea. Where do you even start when you are planning out something like this. Yeah, I mean, that was really the trick was how are we going to do this? And obviously you can't Even with something as huge as this, you need you critically need POVs in it. So it became a question of, well, who do we have That's there that we know we already know and that we follow And uh and Thankfully, the story, the drama that we had you know, set up so far gave us Corlace and Alan And Thailand and Sarocco and this nice kind of, you know, have you have the POVs into the into the each of the command ships and there's this nice kind of existing conflict between the EXO and and the captain. We didt talk about this a lot as a submarine movie. I mean, for me, it was getting to do Wrath of Khon but doing it for medieval seea battle. and the chase into the Nebula was the chase into the, you know, the into the canyon. Oh, that's so interesting But the fun of this is that, you know, Kan and Kirk never got to meet and you get to get because it's medieval warfare and there is there are no real ranged weapons other than the dragons. The way the way you settle these individual battles within the Greater warar is with ship to ship fighting. You have to smash the boats into each other. That's. the reliant crashed into the enterprise like an insane blood slathered pirate, you know, Shirako, who our who's our con, you know, got to charge onto the deck of the entnerprise. So it was really exciting. So we sort of started there, which is who are POVs and really it became a, you know, we this thing needs to be grand and how did they do that and the spectacle of it, But we always have to Other than going to God POV intermittently just to give you orientation and where are we becausecause the theaters of Battles are a little different depending on where we are in the fight It was very much then it's Jace and it's Bla and it's Rayna And the dragons, and then you have the Queen whoever W with Coralus and Alen, and then you have the bitchfist with Siraco and Tyand. And that to us all felt, okay, you can really craft this really intricately woven story out of that. So that's where it all started and that's what helped us to get our arms around it and figure out Okay, this is how we're going to produce the thing I love the evolution of Siracco from the end of last seasononss this season because when we meet The addmiral very Jolly, very yoho ho and a bottle of rum, but as soon as the opportunity to bleed her rival presents itself She becomes a much darker, much more fearsome foe. talkk about that a little bit because she really unveils a ruthlessness that I think her Earlier demeanor did not hint at Yes. She's a bit cannibalism coded as the kids would say. Yeah U This went back to even obviously we were setting this up. last season with we knew and that's why we spent all that time with her because, you know, we wanted you to get to know her a little bit or at least think you knew her before we were going to tell the story in the battle and then then and then you know kill her off. So we wanted to feel like we had we had some footing as to who this person was. But we really went back to the, we went to the books and we went to the sea snakes L history of fighting in the stepstones against the tririarchy. and it just felt like This is great. There's there's this long kind of blood rivalry that we've seen we've heard a lot about over the course of the three seasons of the show. we saw a little bit into in that in that you know, conflict in season one. But I liked the idea that there was all this iceberg below the waterline with, you know, Siraco's history of the seea snake and that he he himself was like her white whale and she has lived to get in this guy's kitchen and kill him and burn his castle down uh and out of revenge for what, you know, what she sees as him terrorizing her people and her mates of the Triarchy Navy. Ssurely one of the most pivotal moments in this story and in this episode is Jace deciding to lock his mother, Queen Rhaenyra in her chambers. oensibly for her protection, but also because You know, he's had, I think, a lot of reasonable objections to the strategy overall over the course of last season and he's not been listened to at all al us through his mindset when he decides to take an action that You know, Bela says this is treason The impulsiveness of youth. Everybody has to remember, you know, J Jace is, you know, sixteen, seventeen years old. he's a kid and kids in this in this world are adults the minute basasically the minute they can pick up an adult sword. So sometimes as young as twelve U some people have, you know, already been to battle the first time at fourteen. People are knighted at sixteen. So it it is a different world, but Jace is a kid. And his frontal lobe is an as developed and his impulse control is an as developed. And look, I think there's a duality at play here, which is Jace is definitely loves his mother and does not want to see her die and really does believe the thing that he said to her in season two, which is If you die, the claim ends. No one is ever going to back me. The kid that everybody kind of knows is a bastard is not the progeny of Lanor Valerian, but of Harwin Strong Um to be king and the whole claim is going to fall apart. and then me and every everybody along my bloodline, everybody in your bloodline is going to lose their head because they are potential claimants to the throne And I think it's a very real argument that, you know, we have to our modern sort of our modern lens into the world needs to calibrate, switch over to the medieval lens and we need to see that where this sort of stuff was always foremost of mine. And then I think there's a second element that's possibly a little bit more self interested, and that's that he feels like his mother has, you know, cckled him in a way and hand packed him. And because she lost Luke in what was supposed to be a diplomatic action, but it ended up being a military action She's had this aversion to allowing Jace to go out and do business for the crown on his dragon. And we see him trying to do that time and time again in season two being shouted down humiliatingly sometimes at the table. And he had just had enough. And I think this was this was the straw that broke the back and between I think between her allowing the Dragon seed campaign to go on right And he was fine he was fine with Stehan Darklland claiming a dragon. But once she handed out the keys to the likes of Ulf White or Ulf the Sot he began to question the headedness behind the strategy there. And and also I think with with the news that Alisent came to Dragonstone, she you treated with her, trusted her probably maybe even more than she trusted Jason this moment. I think he just he just blew his top and lost it and feels like this was both the the strategically smart thing to do to protect her and and the thing that he needed to do to show his own worth as her So Ryan, I feel like there's a version of the story where the Queens Guard does not let Jace lock up his mother. Can you talk us through like how do you think they are reasoning this out Yeah, I mean, we, you know, we debated this a lot and like what are actually their their what is actually their charge. And that's why we had had Jace make that case to him. And we know that you, S Laurent can't raise arms against Jace because he' a member of the royal family. So in a way, just like we saw in the Night of the Seven Kingdoms, sometimes you can uh sort of crash the the operating system of the of the Kingsguard or Queen's Guard by by putting their own oath into play. And it was sort of challenging him like, what do you know, what are you going to do? Are you going to physically restrain me or are you going to, you know, you going to protect the queen? Right. And I think on some level, you know, sort of Laurent is giving over into this kind of Um possibly, you know, Chauvinistic class kind of view that like you know, the queen should not go out there and fight. whereereas no one would to question at all if if she were the if she were king, no one would question at all her ability to get on a dragon and go out there and fight. And I think I think Sir Lawrence is caught, you know, between two ways. but I think he's seen all the other stuff going on in the castle. And I think he is questioning the queen's , you know, that they don't have a twenty fifth Amendment in Westeros, but I think he's he's he's questioning some of her her her decision making as well. I love this line that Rhaenyra in her Distress says to Misaria I may appear to have the weak and feeble body of a woman, but I possess the heart and spirit of a king. I think Queen Elizabeth said something very similar to this also. Tell us about that line I wish I could come up with something like that on my feet. when right before a battle, but it was something that Sarah and I Sarah House and I always really liked and it Wet We don't really do a lot of this, but it felt like given the nature of those two characters of Rhaenyra and Queen Elizabeth and what they both went through in their lives, it did feel like a it was an okay sort of breaking of the three and a half wall into history to sort of remind people that, you, look fire and Blood is rooted in real medieval history, as are all the stories from Westeros. Again, it just felt very apt And I still I've seen it a thousand times and I still get chills whenever I see Emma read that line I may appear to have the weak and feeble body of a woman, but I possess the heart and spirit of a king. One of the themes that this show has explored is dragons having their own agency. We certainly see that in this in this part of the battle. Tell us about that. but you know what What is it like to ride a wild dragon Yeah. I mean, it's, I mean, it's got to be insane. I mean, we we talked about her claiming of the dragon is for for a lot of the We've seen lots of draon claimings in the show. So the challenge is always like, okay, well how if we're going to show this thing How we doing something we haven't seen before? You know, we had Sasmoke claim Adam. You know, we did we did that thing. We saw Vhagar get claimed by Amond, which was which is great and thrilling. The wish fulfillment, you know, the boy get boy gets his dragon and gets to go beat up the bullies. We love that. So this was, well, it's it's Rainna's dream, but it quickly becomes her worst nightmare. And you hear her when she climbs up on that thing, it's just it's the shrieking of terror because she is on a and a runaay train. I mean, she just jumps on this thing back It's probably never experienced whatever the sort of mystical kind of dark matter thing that's going on when a human mind bonds with a dragon mind. And you see some of that in his performance, I was really talking to to you know, Dotie and Tom are our, you know, tremendous visual effects team about wanting to see that. I talked about how like in the Matrix when You know, when one of the agents would occupy somebody inside the matrix, occupy their body so they could fight one of the one of the hackers. You would see the bodies sort of try to reject it because they didn't know what it was happening to them. And I was like, this is the thing that happens toepsi. like, all these other dragons are trained and conditioned. A lot of them have had bonds before. This is you know, this is basically, you know, R Rainna found found, you know, a mutt, you know, eating out of the garbage on the, you know in an alley and then grabbed him and brought him to doggy daycare. And everybody is surprised that like all you know, everything goes, you know, totally to hell. I mean, the sheeps it's meant to be a bit of a You know it's a heartrending sequence, but sheep Sealer isn't being evil. He's a frightened animal that has never seen any of this before and has probably spent much of his existence on Dragonstone avoiding other dragons because they're scary. and he and he's he doesn't he's a solitary kind of guy and he doesn't know what to do with them. So you see all these stimulus get introduced to him. She's in control for that brief moment Yeah. And then and then he starts getting shelled and the noises and the other dragons and then he just goes into self protection mode ironically trying to protect Reya too, his rider. You know, that's really, I hadn't thought of it in that context of like, oh, he's just highly reactive. scared baby. Yeah It makes sense though. Well, let's talk about come of Sure, Sheep Stealers' entrance into the fight, which is the second grappnal. hitting Vermmax and this time with deadly effect It's such a sad moment, but also listening to you talk about Jace's perspective why he did what he did. I can't help but also think Is it not kind of proof of concept that maybe he was right, you know, too dangerous for the queen to go out there when everything hinges on her. talkk to us about that moment Yeah, I mean, I think part of Jason's calculus and probably part of Marbrand's calculus too is Vagar's out there somewhere. And he has entrapped our dragons before Um So I think I think Jason Baylor are going into this thinking, well, we're the swift small ones and maybe we can, you know, the two of us can can sort of navigate around this and get away. They don't go in thinking that the triarchy has developed anti Dragon weapons which again, Siraco having fought in the Stepstones without dragons for Eons She becomes the kind of, you know, the sort of local, you know, the local warlord that has to use u has to use outdated technology in order to fight the, you know, the great Western power that's come into to, you know, come into her backyard Can we go back to Jace's death for a second? Because there is something that I found really striking in particular about that scene, which is the fact that You know, here are these people, the Targaryens who have this amazing power with these dragons, but at the end of the day They are just humans. And I feel like when we're seeing Jace get hit with those arrows, like that's what really struck me there is that in the end He's just a kid, you know? And And once the dragon is out of the picture He has nothing Yeah, I mean, it's it's this massive H hugest canvas you can imagine painting on certainly in television. And then it comes down to this tiny moment. Yes, you know, of this boy essentially clinging onto a piece of wood in the middle of the ocean helpless and surrounded by enemy ships. and it is, it's it's heartbreaking and And, you know, it it's funny it's deeply affected people that worked on the show and saw this happen, you know saw you know, saw the tank that we had, you know, Harry in and the many, many takes that we did with him. And when you see it all rendered finished with all the sound and the visual effects and its it's still deeply effffect. I mean, his performance is incredible. It's a huge loss. And I think going back to the beginning of like why the gullet I just think there is a Rhinenyra when Jace is alive And then there's the Rhaenyra after Jace dies. And I just think that for sure We've turned a page here and there is no coming back. I think a lot in this episode about the idea of sort of like victory at what cost, which I think is a theme that we've seen through this series as well, just around sort of like Okay, you know, what does it mean once you're on the throne? all it's None of it is as simple as you think it is And I'm just curious what other themes you've opened up with this episode and that you're looking forward to exploring through the subsequent episodes of the season as well Yeah, I think that's a big one is at what costs and you'll see that play out big time this season as everybody kind of pursues their either their individual goal to get on the throne or the goal of putting the person that they are supporting on the throne and seeing people struggle even people that you wouldn't think have struggles or compunctions about that cost, seeeeing people be brought up to the brink and having having to reckon with that and seeing how they and seeing how they react. That is definitely a big a big theme of the show. You know, big theme of the show for on Rhaenyra's side, I would say is that for her, this war has largely become about a struggle for legitimacy and to be seen as legitimate. And we saw her as the challenger, of course, back in you know, back in Dragonstone, just trying to get her own counsel to take her seriously as a result of this episode and then the war, it really the subsequent you beats to come Her challenge becomes about getting the realm two to take her seriously as, you know, either as a challenger or as the queen. And I think that pushes against her own internal morality in a way that we see it playing out with other characters and the at what cost thing. But for Rhaenyra, it's like, I want to be seen as legitimate. I want to be seen as legitimate to my dead father who picked me for a certain reason because he saw the makings of a great queen in me. Do those things agree with who I have to be to actually prosecute and win this war And of course, because you know, it's interesting drama, I think, those things often find themselves in direct opposition with one another, which is constantly demanding of Rhaenyra, who are you and who are you going to be? Absolutely Well, Ryan, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. It's always so great to talk to you about the show. Yes, thank you. Of course, guys, anyime. Thanks, thanks for having me Always great to hear from Ryan. Yes. Now we have a special treat. We got to talk with Harry Colet, who plays Prince Jesserys, also known as Jace. Let's listen to that conversation Well, Harry, we're so excited to talk to you all about Jace in this phenomenal premiere. Welcome to the show Thank you for having me So obviously, this is a tragic episode for Jace, but let's start with Something that I think Gret and I are really going to miss, which is someome of the wardrobe. We're big fans of the wardrobe on this show and Jace had some of the best stuff. Is there anything that you are going to miss Dning for the role Um Probably my sword, but I got to keep that Oh wow, that you really? Yeah, literally like not even I mean, I was given it before the season. I was like Guys, can I like keep my sword? And then they were like, I don't know because you know, you can't really just make another one for you to take home. And I was like, okay, no worries And when I wrapped got my I got my sword and it's the proper like metal one as well. Obviously it's all blunt, but it's like Yeah, I mean, it looks very, very strange. like obviously I live on a main road at home. so when I got out of the car At the end of that day, I was getting out with a massive sword and it probably looked very concerning So I mean, I don't know if I miss the clothing layers. There was quite a lot of layers and when it was hot it got really hot, but it looked good and that's all that matters. Dude, those capes were so perfect. Like you rocked the hell out of those capes. wantanted to talk to you about Jace's ambitions because obviously he takes some pretty drastic decisions in this episode He's impulsive youth, but also the heir to the throne and he's dealing with a lot through the lens of his mom being queen, but what is he in that moment when he's making these decisions. What is it that he wants for himself He wants to be sitting on that throne I think I think with Jace I think with Jace is's sort of like You know, he's Ultimately always going to have in his head that he's a bastard. And I feel like the fact that he has a dragon and the fact that he's head to the Iron Throne is sort of like it's making him you know, aware that He doesn't really care about being a bastard So it's more of the fact of like This is the only thing that's keeping me from like crashing out you know what I mean? Yes. He is thinking about his future. I think he does actually care about you know, the future of Um you know, the family and everything like that. I don't think he is fully thinking about himself the whole time. actually thinking I actually think he thinks more of other people while he's taking these actions, you know? Um I feel like that's why Jace would have been such a good king, you know Let's talk about those arrows. What was it like to film that battle scene. And it was very Very weird actually. Luck Its like Lonny, the director on this episode, amazing guy, amazing director Yeah, it was like a lot of the time in the water tank But to act dead is probably the hardest acting I've ever done in my life, especially in that water because I feel like everything I did this season was so loud. L there was wind machines, there was wave machines. and then Lonny would just be even screaming his head off or on a megaphone shouting notes. So when I was in the indoor tank. and when we filmed that, you know, that last sort of arrow going in and me sort of you know, sort of floating, I guess on the water. The waves And this was like multiple guys pushing barrels onto the water like that The waves would like come and obviously hit my eyes and everything and like water would go up my nose so I'd cough And then you just got Lonnie going It's more dead. A more dead. and I'm look U, but no, he was so great. He was like he was like Like But even before the episode, we had multiple meetings of what Jace would be feeling like in that moment and like at every single split moment and that helped me so much when it comes to filming because like it's so hard sort of you know, you can look shocked and you can look angry and upset, but look It's such a out there situation that he's been put in and if you feel that inside, it will really come out in your emotions too. But overall, it was just really fun. I've got to do just like loads of stunts and everything like that. So it was yeah, it was cool, but that was the hardest thing. tryrying to because obviously I get shot and I keep my eyes open. I don't know. I should have done it like this And then kept my eyes closed. but I kept my eyes open, so it made my job ten times harder. What was it like on set that day doing that you know, I assume that Ebody understood that your character was going to to die in this scene Yeah. what was the atmosphere like? until that until my very last day Um It was, you know, it was like everyone's like, oh my Godd, I coming up to you going, Ohh my god, I can't L I can't believe it. I mean, I I knew way before You know, so it was like it wasn't a shock to me. It's not like I was at the read through going No no. you know. I was shocked of how it was how well it was like. notot shocked of how well our writers are obviously, but like how was shocked of how impactful it was even on a piece of paper U and that's what I wanted. You kind of if you're going to die, you want people to care about your death, don't you like It's like it's like you don't want it to just be like Yes, he's died or even the worse where they're like, o, I forgot he died. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, You want it to be Yeah, who again?? You want it to be impactful, like And these are the things people remember like even from like the reed Wedding in like Game of Thrones and like things like that. So it's like even though that was so early on People remember that and it's so important But the last day like I was filming just with U Bethanyee that day Um, and people came you know, Emma came from like a different studio, Matt came, you know, and it was and it was so nice and it was like people were sort of just like clapping and stuff and it was yeah. And I didn't I mean, Emma you know, bless them. they got emotional but I was like so full of adrenaline. I was like I can't get emotional right now, but then it was ye it was just such a beautiful moment and it's mad because Bnd luck five Well, I've spent five years on this job. So I got cast when I was seventeen and I'm now twenty two. So likeve I've sort of grown up a bit on this show, you know, around these people. U And as much as it's been a blessing, it's so sad that I'm not going to be able to go back and see them and be like, o, I'll see you next year, you know and sort of do that same thing again. But I'm so grateful that it has happened and I've met you know, some friends for life. so Yeah. So you mentioned it's been five years since you first started playing Jace. How do you think This role has How do you think you've learned from that just like as a person who also was seventeen and now was twenty two I've learnted so many in real life things, but I've also learned things you know to do with my career But like I think I've learned so much more in real life things, to be honest, because This job has been a challenge in some ways and we love a challenge. our actors do love a challenge But like that's what we strive for, you know, That's just like a normal day to day thing for us. but At seventeen to twenty two, there's so much stuff that has happened in my life that I'm so grateful to have, you know, like Emma around me, Besthy around me, you know, Phoebe around me, when that happens And it's like s just it's just a blessing because you're away from home for quite a bit, especially when you're on location and everything. and when these things happen, it's like as you because I still live with my parents now and like I will go home and tell them everything But when you can't really do that You've got your second family there, which I think is so beautiful and it's so rare to have that on a job as well Um But yeah I think it's a beautiful, beautiful So yeah, where'd you put the sword? It's at your parent's house. So at first I have like under storage. like under my bed So like, you know, you only one you can lift up and then you that's where all my clothes are. but I put it under there And then and then my dad has this like thing where he's like everything I get I have to put in the loft So it's like it's like it's now like locked up somewhere in the north like in like a protective pass coded casing, you know. So But yeah, no, it's safe at home and when I move out, I've said I want to put it into like a u You can get like a three D frame, right? So I'm going to put it in like a three D frame. Um and hang it up But I also got a big Vermmax head So I'm gonna Yeah, I'm gonna put that on like a coffee table when I move out And everyone can look at it, you know And then put it away if I have a drunk party, you know 'ause that isn that is not getting ruined. Yeah, no, no cigarettes in Vermmax's. No. No, no one's putting out anything in Vermmax's mouth Could I do a little outro message for the people? What you No know, please do it. Yes, go Thank you so much for listening to the podcast and thank you if you watch the show or obviously, hopefully you watch the show because you're listening to this podcast Thank you so much for having me on this amazing journey and being so supportive of Jace. and allowing me sort of be free in this world and thank you for everything. And thank you guys for having me as well Thank you. Thank you. All right, those were some great conversations, but before we go, I want to end with a new segment. We're calling it our parting words and we're going to do this for each episode. And the idea is that We are going to share some parting words to a different character for each episode. We're going to agree on that character ahead of time. And this week Of course, we gotta start with Jace So, yes, Jason Where's my camera? Jace, I want to look you in the eye Where am I going Oh, Jace Let me just say, Jace, I think that You were right about a lot of things and nobody was listening to you. and I know that that is frustrating But When you are king, then you can make the rules and Nobody's going to say it. But I'll say it. Maybe the fact that you're dead proved that you're right Because what if the quQueen was dead? and then it would all be over. So I think it was reckless what you did. I think it was irresponsible. and I think that under another administration, I don't know, maybe get your hand chopped off or something and thrown in a dungeon That being said I'll miss you. I thought you had great keeps Lton have great capes Yeah. When you were right you were right. You're right. Yeah, you're right about it. I think that is the like Jace, you were right is ye. I mean, that's pretty much it right there. Yeah. you were right. However, I don't love an involuntary psych hold No, that's that was like that's Don't we have to put it on Sir Laurent at that point? Well, but how's he gonna defy Jace? You know? Like that's awkward. queen But you're, I mean He's in a tough spot, you're. He's in a tough spot. He's in a very ro He's just a salary guy. He' just punches the clock. M not management I also, I know this is kind of cheating because we agreed to talk to Jase. but can I also just say Lohar, you are a bad bitch and I appreciate you Lvel lady pirate. Not enough in the world. That's it Should we raise a metaphorical glass to both So tip of the hcky. Rest in power, both of you, rest in power. Sad to see you go It is sad Gosh, it is so nice to be back in me brutal and deeadly and destructive Dance of the Dragons with you.. Okay, that's it for this episode. Don't forget to join us next Sunday night right after episode two airs on HBO and HBO Max We'll be joined by even more special guests. And this week we'll have a very special bonus episode sponsored by Chase Sapphire Reserve for Business That's right, we'll talk to director Lonni Peristir about bringing the Battle of the Gullet to life And We'll share exclusive panel footage from the cast and crew at the ATX TV Festival in Austin, Texas. Yes, and if you like what you are hearing and watching, don't forget to leave a review and rating on your podcast playlayer of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles, and you can also watch us on Spotify, YouTube, and HBO Max The official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon is produced by HBO in Collaboration with S Boat Studios. This podcast is hosted by Gretta Johnson and Jason Concepion, who also produces the show. Our executive producers for S Boat Studios are Gabrielle Lewis and Barry Finkel Our senior producer is Ben Goldberg. This show is mixed by Hannis Brown, and our video editor is Stephano Sanchez. Our digital content producer is In Sg Huang And our studio engineer is Javi Cruses Special thanks to Michael Gluckstatt, Allison Cohen, Sorokotch, and Kenya Reyes from the HBO Max podcast team Thanks for listening. We'll see you soon. The official Game of Thrones podast is sponsored Chase Sappire Reserve for businessusiness. I'm Lonnie, co founder of Zoe Studios. We're VFX company that works on House of the Dragon. Our goal is to create epic TV. Building a business is its own epic adventure. In visual effects and shows of this scale, details Matter, where every minute of screen time equals thousands of minutes of people time. We take big swings and refuse to think small