Building the Final World Cup Squad

What if a marginal gain unlocked greater performance What if an insight in data could change everything At ArAMco, our focus on detail helps us deliver reliable energy to millions across the world becausecause margins aren't marginal There' where we can truly push the limits of what's possible RMco an integrated energy and Chemicals company Learn more at arramco. com High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face Unless you power up with a so far personal lo A so far personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment It's even got suuper speed Since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you signed Visit sofi. com slash power to learn more. That's soFi d. com slash PW E Monans originated by Sfi Bank NA, member F theIC terms of conditions supppply and MLS six nine six eight nine one Welcome to It was What It was. I'm Rob Draper. I'm the co host of the Football History podcast with Jonathan Wilson. And with the World Cup underway, we've got a special four part series on England's nineteen sixty six World Cup win. yes, sixty years of hurt. We're going into the origin story of that. Coming up for you on the channel is part one where we discuss England's well cup winning manager, so Alfa Ramsey and how he prepared the team for what would become the finest day in England's football in history. And in other further episodes, we're going to go more depth. whyy on earth did he drop Greaves? What was the controversy around that? How did they celebrate and also the tactical genius that was Ramseay that won them this well cup go into proper depth into a story you might have heard before, but hopefully there's going to be a load more detail. And if you enjoy it, please do head over to It was What It was. And if you sign up to our Patreon channel, you'll get everything, all four episodes straight away on demand. You won't have to wait for them. But if you want to wait for them, just head over to It was What it was, listen to them on that If you go onto it was what it was feed, there's almost two hundred episodes now of all sorts of histories from Colombia's nineteen ninety four World Cup to Arsenal Liverpool nineteen eighty nine title Cimax. Everything you could think of is on there. But also if you go ono a Patreon, there's a whole history of the World Cup on there from nineteen thirty to twenty twenty two and lots of bonus episodes on football hooliganism why Brazil are not doing well in the twenty first century, all sorts for you to enjoy. So do check those out and we hope you enjoy this episode What was ourphamsy like I don't know. I was only with him for six years welcome to It was What it was. We're on the cusp of the World Cup fininals. I'm here with Jonathan Wilson. I'm Rob Draper. We're all very excited. We're looking forward to USA Cando and Mexico and everything that's going to come this year. but we are a history podcast at heart And we want to look back at some of the most significant World Cups ever and Forgive us foreign listeners, forgive us Scotland, Ireland, Wales. We do think that nineteen sixty six, probably sixty years on is worth a look back at and not least because because of the central character involved Sir Alfa Ramseay, who is an extraordinary figure and Jonathan, I think, a little bit underrated by many people, gets a bit of a hard time. He's sort of dealt with by caricature Part one of four parts where we're going to go through England's World Cup tr, sixty years on. And this one is very much looking at the background. We're doing the pre history, aren't we before we get ono all the world cup stuff. But I think that in itself is fascinating. Yeah. basically we' finished today in the summer of nineteen sixty five So we will look at Rams look at this background, look at the situation he inherited I really I really enjoyed your effort at a Jack Chartlon impression. I mean, you think of the hours I spent in makeup voice coaching trying to get my Allan H handsome my Kevin Kegan right And you you know, not that was nobody has ever spoken like that in Ashington, but anyway neverever mind. Ashington via Watford. I mean, it's just Watford. Watford byia Watford See, I think it's fairly clear England's road to welcome glory begins with the appointment of Ramsay's England manager in October of nineteen sixty two Al of course, because he's Ramsy and he's awkward and he's difficult and he's principled He doesn't actually take up the job until the March of ' sixty three U He thinks it would be unfair on Ipwitch and he's just won the title with Iipwitch in nineteen sixty two A remarkable achievement they had only been promoted the previous season and They They were struggling U In the October ' sixty two, they lost to spurs aceed five in a charotity shield has sessenseially been been worked out, I guess, really and he didn't want to leave them in the lurch until he was pretty sure that they would survive. So he stayed on Ipswch So to the following March I mean, I think that reflects very well on him that he doesn't leave them in the lurch, but also I mean, remarkable maybe doesn't quite cover it. I mean the Ips switch title win under Ramy is one of the most astonishing things in football unmatched until Eester, is it not? I guess Forerest is the other one you might might add in. And again, a team who who get promoted and then that get straight to momentum. you know carries them through to the titland and people haven't seen them out mean we'll talk later on about why they were tactically innovative and what it was they were doing that confuseed teams U But yeah, an extra show is a small club You know, they they We obviously had this great period had a great period under under Bobby Robinson at the end of the seventies But they're not By any stretch of imagination one of historical giants of English football. So Ramseay replaces Walter Winterbottom Walter Windnderbottom has had to deal with a selection committee One of the things Ramsay demands is autonomy. He wants control over selection. Let's explain where a selection committee is because I think a lot of young listeners will have No idea that this happened It's a series of FA Mandarins who in theory are going aroundound the country lookingoo at games watching players And then they gather together and they decide what the England eleven is going to be. the manager doesn't pick it, then the manager' just the coach to eleven is it or I think Certainly by the end, Windsor Botom probably effectively was controlling that process But of course one of the problems with this is the assumption that you can design a team by committee And equ know the famous joke that a camel is a horse designed by committee People have different ideas about how you play. There's no thought of internal balance But English football is so convinced that the WM is the only way to play. Well, okay, well if we pick the best right back And we pick the best center back, we pick the best left back That would be the best back three There's no thought that maybe you want one side to be able to get forward and then the other one took across or Yeah, he's got pace therefore. we can afford a slightly slower play who's better in the air That is just not part of the equation. There's a committee and their horse trading. Okay, you can pick your left back if I pick my right winger It's really not conducive to The increasing tactical sophistication, the idea of the game is being systematised you see in the sixties And this is why Ramsy absolutely lays it on the line. I get to pick the team or I don't do the job So he's inheriting a a pretty conservative old fashioned situation and he's trying to modernize that But he's also inheriting an England team whoseirup record really is not good. That's all So England didn didn't play in the World Cups of thirty, thirty four, thirty eight, just They weren't part of FIF, they saw it as beneath them, you know oreigners having a competition. know, clearly the home Championship is the real test of football N in fifty, when they do don't to turn up They get this horrible shock where they lose to the USA, also lose topain, eliminating the group stage fififty four there would be better They get through the group but they lose four tos to aguay in the quarter fininal fifty eight say They finish level on points where the Soviet Union and group have a playoff lose that. So again, they go out in the group stage. And sixty two they actually happen It's an okay welc up for thembeat Argentina in the group. They get through the quarter final and they're beaten by a Brazil inspired by Garincia. And that of course is a famous game. where a dog runs on the pitch Jerry Greeves. I didn't know you were going to go to this story. get sound at all. Well we talked about in one of the bonus episodes, didnn't we So sign up to our Patreon. And you can listen in far more detail to how Jimmy Greeves crawled about on all fours persuaded a dog to leave a pitch. Then it urinated on him and then there was a raffle which Grincha won Yeah way more detail in the patreon. literally Brazil were taking a piss or the dog was taking a piss anyway. I wasn't taking it. He was to giving himiss. Yeah anyway's let's move on from your issues up So yeah, so S Alf for Ramsey I mentioned at the top of this that Very often portrayed as dower pressed maybe a bit backward, a traditionalist, not really open to modern ideas or certainly at odds with the swinging sixties of sort of London and Liverpool. I suppose that's why that is the counterpoint is that Britain is opening up and England is at the center of sort of cultural phenomena and we've got this rather Rh. sort of middle aged man in charge of the football team.'s it's In many respects, an unfair caricature. I, I dt it is at all I think he is quite reserved and he is quite difficult. He is quite cused And he has bit backward looking Not backward looking that is traditionalist. I mean, I'm not sure he's in traditionalists to be honest. I mean he's the fact that he kicks out the committee shows he's I'd say he's probably be socially conservative He's emotionally oppressed, but in football terms, he's radical. Yeah, I think that's the sort of Is it even a paradox? That's the makeup of him So there's a great interview I found when I was researching I think this was for the book I did on the Cheltons that his wife, Victoria, gave an interview and in which she said that you wished Alf would let his hair down occasionally. It would do him a power of good, I'm sure. I'm sure Ramseay hated this being in public. By the way, he didn' have any he didn't have much hair either. did he. And she said whatever problem he was wrestling with whatever satisfaction you might feel He just hides it behind this brusque facade. So in that sense he's very much of anlish an Englishman of a particular generation And so Victoria goes on I'm the one in the household who hits the ceiling I think it's a good thing to get out of your system. But not Alalf. He's the rock of Gibraltar I'm not saying he doesn't feel it, but he doesn't show emotion. He has a will like iron. I mean, that's also that's certainly all true. and as we'll see in his player interactions, I mean, there's a certain strength to his lack of emotion. I think ultimately that does cost you as a man manager in the long term. But there are key situations such as if you've just chucked away in a golden and last minute of the World Cup final where staying calm and not getting over emotional is quite important and probably a key strength for him Yeah, in being very single minded, he knows what he wants tactically. And he's not going to let any of the outside noise, any of the press, any fans Yeah players talking to He's not going to let any of that distract him. I think the other thing about Ramseay is he is massively xenophobic and there's no real way to sugarcoat that. He just doesn't like it's not even that he doesn't like foreigners He doesn't like anybody who's not English he's very dismissive of the Scots He really hates South Americans He's he's a enophobe. that is just true. welcome to Scotland story Yeah, exactly. whyy didn't you tell that? It turns up for it must be a home international, doesn't it you? I guess at Glasgow Airport. and one of the jooners says, Welcome to Scotland, Mr. Ramsy goes you must be yeffing joking, know which is yeah yeah, a great response, I suppose, which I probably wouldn't get away with these days And yeah, he's introvertedly's stubborn. I think it's also true his reputation suffers because of England's failed to qualify for the nineteen seventy four World Cup U And I think By then the fact that his football is not necessarily the easiest on the eye. H refusal to bowed to the will of the media and the fans to pick some of the more Maverick players of the seventies Oh that's a great idea of He was a very stern boring man U and I think, you know, England are unlucky to lose sorry to draw that game against Poland That mean in nine seventy three that means they don'talify for seventy four World Cup But at the same time, I think it's obvious that by then, Englands football is lagging behind the best of West Germany or the best of Dutch are producing And so Yeah Ramseay follows the familiar path of managers or revolutionaries that eventually what was sparkling a new A few years later is old hats And I think unfortunately s it's the end of his England created often dominate his reputation or shape his reputation rather than the glorory is. Yeah. Well I suppose that' what I was getting at. I mean, it's like great boxes. all your careers end on a canvas in the end, don't they sort of knocked out and whatever you past glories are. I mean it is a little bit like that. Here's a man of I mean okay, we've talked about his He dislike clear dislike a foreigners. but the new Grant Bage book has been really interesting. I mean you've talked about one of the things that Grant talks about, which is that he's probably of Romanany stock and that he's teased for this really and his nickname Darky is basically because He is seen as dark skinned and of Romany sort of heritage, which of course wouldn't be acceptable today, but it was seen I think even some of the players would call that magazine behind his back, wouldn't they Yeah, I mean there's a story. I think it's Bobby Moore and Jimy Greves on a on the bus going to add to training out to a game And they see a Romany And they sort of go, oh look out for there' some of your people over there And yeah, he's really not having that. He doesn't find that amusing at all. U, and I think It's maybe his self consciousness about his origins that leads him to have eloccution lessons, which is why he speaks in such a bizarre way, this very strangled his attempt to sort of spepeaking of some former BBC English but keeps on slipping up because the old vowel sounds not quite b And it's just unnatural. the whole thing sounds Like he's really having to squeeze the words out. We did a whole episode, didn't we on the demise of Sir Alph Ramsy Jon' was one of your you. I say' a brilli epode. do go back and listen to that and the class issues of the posh, the Rxbridge FA committees and you know, this guy from basically Daggingh him in East London who is of Rome and heritage and a huge gulf between that. But the other thing that Grant discovered, which is a genuine revelation that there was a player playing for Ipswich in the nineteen fifties, who'd been convicted of gross indeency with another man, basically a homosexual who had had some homosexual encounter with another man, which in the nineteen fifties was illegal. That wasn't made legal until the late sixties in England and Ramsey goes into backat for him basically says, I want to sign him. I want him to stay at the club And he takes a ball on and he gets his way. I mean, who can say why he did that? I mean, maybe because he was a really good footballer. And all he was thinkinular of his football team, but it shows a degree of open mindedness in an era where it really wouldn't have been the done thing to be open minded about homosexuality Yeah, I mean that was a remarkable stuff. it's a very good book that I mean people should should look it up I mean, I think we've been quite fortunate in the last three or four years. There's been a lot of good books about Rams in sixty six Duncan Hamilton spoke, Michael Calvin spoke. So there is a lot more information there than there was s even five years ago So Yeah, there's plenty plenty of further reading you can do I am I think was one I'm going to call it myth because I just don't think it's true was one myth, one argument that we probably should deal with now before we get into the weeds which is the idea that Ramseay somehow stunts English football that winning the World Cup was a bad thing of England because it It's so David Downing, who's a historian He's written very good books on The England, Argina rialry, England, Germany rivalry And he he writes ultimately The real losose for nineteen sixty six was English football Ramsey's success reinforced English insularity. and reduce what willingness there was to learn from abroad. Thus condemn the national game to the stus of a backwater The old values of toughness, speed, and never say di attitude had been reinforced But the insistence on fair play, which had always accompanied them would weaken as the game became more thoroughly professional I'm not sure that when you've only w woke up, you've got any business saying Actually was a bad thing I think you've pretty much got to celebrate that. And also that seems to completely Ignore quite how radical Ramsy's solutions were And it's not his fault if people followed him ended up sort of getting stuck in a rut and couldn't see what the Dutch were doing, what the West Germans were doing I guess it is by the early seventies his fault many old managers or aging managers end up reproducing what sport success rather than looking for further innovation. I I think Guadiola is very unusual in that respect. He does keep evolving. Alex Ferguson kept evolving But those are the rarities blame Ramsay for the fact that Egant H haven't won the Worp for sixty years seems to me extxtraordinary because without Ramseay, England would never have won the world anything to talk about. I mean I think the point is that Ramseay wins the World Cup and obviously we're building up to this because of specific tactical interventions, which changed the course to modern football, you know, almost as much as total football will do in nineteen seventy four. and that's often overlooked. wasn' It wasn't that he was llying on old fashioned British values. He was reframing how the game was played for the backatform without wingers and everyone's going to follow him. And as you say, it's not his fault that we don't build on that success. It's true that England doesn't build on that success and there isn't anyone who I mean, it's interesting that Revy doesn't build on it because he is a obviously very talented manager, but there isn't anyone who can incorporate the Dutch style into that Ramsay style and maybe mold something uniquely for English football in the seventies or for an England team in the seventies and eighties. Yeah, I think it's wanting to see always see England as backward and regressive and not open to foreign ideas. Certainly, as youve indicated, Ramseay wasn't particularly open to forign ideas, but he had really good ideas of his own Well, I gott to eat it I think he is open to find ideas. just doesn't admit it Yeah. We just doesn't honers, but he likes those ideas. Weetather even admits that to himself, I think iss a fascinating thing But but know as we'll find, there's a tournament in Brazil, the Mondolito in sixty four, which and we'll talk about that later in this episode. It is key. But let's have a look at Ramsey's background, shall we? and we've done We might talk about this in preious episodes so we We'll do this fairly quickly I think one of the key things about Ramzio, who's a full back, is a right back he play for the sppurs played for England and he played in the two great post war humiliations of English football He played in that wand little defeat against USA in belelow azun and night in fifty in the World Cup and he played in the six three home defefeat to Hungary in nineteen fifty three. So the two games that really Makingland start to doubt. Hang on, maybe we're doing this wrong.be I mean nobody thinks the USA are doing it right, but it is an embarrassment Losing to Hungary in fifty three really does make people think Yeah, maybe mayaybe we have somehow impmlausibly, the foreigner has got better and we need to improve to catch him up. Ramsay doesn't think that though, does he No, I mean because Ramsay plays for sppurs, Spurs have this push and run tradition Arthur Re was his coach won the league with him in fifty one. Arthurowe course have been in Hungary in the late thirties There's a lot of similarities between Arthur Rose thought that he brings to Tottenham or that he continues to Tottenam Peter Mc Williams actually the person who's instilled it and the way Hungary are doing things So Ramsey'siewpoint is, well, Hungary' football is just spurs football. It's They have Push gas and cockcition, boss second. They just a bit better than us So Yeah Ramseay's view is Hungary are not revolutionary. just better at doing something we already knew about U, So this really That defeat confirms,. Ramsay that the Spurs way is the right way Now he retires as a player in ninetineeen fifty five. Aged thirty five O is he Because hes actually he's lied on his registration and taken two years of his age. E thinks he's thirty three But he's actually thirty five. that, a professcial flder Again, it's a man who's very ' cerertain very aware? of how perceptions can shape your career. And he's trying to just yeah If he looks two years young, if everything think he's two years younger, that can only help him. If people think he's maybe not as working class as he actually is. or maybe that'll help him as well. He's a man who deffines his own myth and a pros dying their hair. Bically, keep your hair because any gray hairs, just perception is everything. And so obviously people know your age, but I know professionals have said no I dye my hair because I don't want people to think I'm old because I want the next contract Yeah, ye makes sense So he He's he doesn't get the spurs job, which I think he thought he might have a chance of. He ends up going to Ipswitich in a third division. We talked about that on our Bill Nixson episode. It's extraordinary. He's not considered for that, isn't it given he's part of that whole tradition Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether they They think he's Itust a bit awkward a bit difficult. It's also extraordinary that Bill Nixon maybe was considered for the England job But because it is certainly a period where getting an England job is seen as a pinnacle and Alf gets it over Bill Nicholson Well I guess Nicholson Now he had won the double byar then,n't he so yeah, I mean, yeah, it that is interesting I But yeah goes which nobody really thinks much is going to happen there Scquad's aging, There's not much money available for investment But Ramseay slowly imposes the structure And in his second season, he leads to promotion. so they're now in the second division. Then sixty, sixty one they go again And so what you're seeing here and I think we see this with England There's a slow improvement, there's a slow movement towards the model. He's not somebody who comes in and says,, rip up what you've been doing. this is it he does it incrementally. And he's begun to develop a system with with A withdrawing wingers. So Jimmy Leedbter is a left winger He's not quick And Ramseay realizes there's no point having him taking on his full back becausecause even if he beats him, he hasn't got the pace to get away from him See how has that bit So he has L butter s deep. So gives us a fullbag a problem Does he follow? Light betterter which then leaves space behind it, which Ted Crawford can move into that space or Does he sayit off hold this position but then led a could dictate the game. unoppposed from deep So Ramsay is starting to experiment with what do we do with wingers? Do we actually need traditional wingers? And this of course He will take it much, much further with England. Yeah, I just think his willingness to I think all football tactes is trying to scramble the brain of the opposition and going what on earth are they doing? And if you get a team into that position You've got a really good chance to win the game There are very few thinkers in English football who match Rams in this regard Yeah And this is so successful When he does it in the first division, it works again and they win the league the first season It was a really incredible achievement to take up le time. Eing notwithstanding and Bobby Robson will go on to do great things at Iwitch. Iwitich is on the periphery of English football, isn' it? I mean, literally, it's like right on the east coast. So it's not a central harbour. it's not a massive football play. It's only really, I guess Ramseay and Bobby Robson and of course now Ed Ceron that has put Ipswitch as a significant football players, but prior to this, they're kind of nothing really aren't they? I do wonder if Kirin McKennna might think of something to do with him rather than theird cheering but. I think it's definitely Ed's singerongs that has So wning than the point Ramsey, What they're getting is a very, very modern tactician. They're getting somebody who is M messing around under with the back for. He's mess around under with wingers. he's messing with mobile center forwards This is all incredibly modern. Do you think the FA actually knew what they were pointing because I can't believe any FA committee would have gone for that. They'veull seen league title win, haven't they Yeah, I think I think it's entirely possible a couple of our committee knew exactly what they were doing But I think the majority of them probably He's a good coach, he's inspirational. He's done this incredible thing of taking Iipwitch from the third flight to win the title and he's cheap 's probably also you knowing how the FA worked in those days, And that's probably on their mind as well And Ramseay' also using aoneal marking system So he's moved a systematised approach So The sort of the old individualistic style of Matt Busby have been so successful with That's fading away. This is what Ramsy' doing is similar to what Shank's doing, similar to what Ravy's doing and I think this is the thing that is often overlooked. Ramsey's Stringth at sixty six is fundamentally a triumph for tactical radicalism. Absolutely. I mean, it's not I don't think's necessarary that England has a vague good players in his team and obviously Bobby Chelton and Bobby Moore and Gordon Banks, but I don't think necessarily they have They are the best team in the competition, but you could break down other teams and say they have as good individuals during that competition Well, arguably better if you look at Portual, for instance, of the Soviets, even Hungary. But where does this come from So Vob, I want to take you back to the ideal home show Al him here in West London In nineteen fifty six It's where we always want to go, Jonathan There's an exhibit there entitled The House of a Future And if you look at the photographs now, it sort of it looks like a set for an early sci fi film It's all bare walls and hexagons There's a woman with sort of very sort of her hair's twisted like like she's a gorgon or somethingving snakes on her head And There's a man dressed in a very strangeort one piece suit, very high waist and it's a weird little short jacket and these big sort of U I Tour thean's waders U it's very odd. It's almost like I thought fashion was going to get weird in the future and And they can summon a table to rise to the floor by pressing a button on a large cube. which just sits on this This sa a slight slightly frightening looking hospital trolley. Next to this really uncomfortable looking plastic chair. But really the really striking thing is the aesthetic Iignnore their clothing which is preposterous. Everything else in a room is cold, it's hard, it's functional The designs incredibly spare. The only decoration is a single line that just runs a few inches for me What if a marginal gain unlocked greater performance. What if an insight in data? could change everything at A RAMco Our focus on detail helps us deliver reliable energy to millions across the world Be margins aren't marginal. They' where we can truly push the limits of what's possible. ArAMco, an integrated energy and chemicals company Learn more at arramco. com edge of a table on the floor And the media think this is amazing So is This is from the Daily Mail, so it must be true. This must be Yeah, the Daily mail have a fing on the pulse of Midd Eland. Absolutely. This is Patricia K in the mail We still have very nearly the same inconvenient, inefficient pattern of living as our parents and even our grandparents But consider the progress in other fields And there's this growing willingness to look at these inefficient patterns And to start to consider ism. Jonathan Meads, a great cultural commentator he calls the most extreme strain of late modernism Now I can see in your eyes R you said, whyy is he banging about brutalism? It's because football, just like any other discipline for this cultural fashion, that I would argue that football follows architecture more closely Th then it follows any other sphere. You you see that in totalball, Total football is about architecture and urban design Ramsy' football is brutalist football So Football before the First World War being ery concerned doing things the right way. It becomes much more pragmatic after the First World War By the late fifties Nutrition and diet have improved. P as ration came to under fifty four I think there's a great understanding of sports science Better developments in terms of boots, kitss, players can run faster can run for longer People have seen that the strict mount tomand market of the WN doesn't work anymore E England has begun to lose faith in traditional winger. And so that gives you far greater flexibility of approach Posts fifty three posts are defeat to Hungary There's a lot of experimentation. People are trying different things British culture is inherently conservative for this period And so if you look at the great brutalists, people like Licob Busier or your Bauhouse, that they They seem sort of overtly foreign U, So cultural historian Ben Hime writes brrutalism was meant to have a wh of Golores and existentialism but it was also meant to echoe with jive talk and jukeboxes. So it's someh continental, but it's also American U you know, even the name brutalism is French. you know it doesn't come from brutal It comes from B on prof raw concrete Whatevers happening elsewhere This is Barnabas Colder in a book called Raw Concrete, which I would heartly recommend to stone face classicism seem better to represent the timelessness of empire and the solid grandeur of world power status. But that's exactly what is being challenged. That is what Hungary defeats at the Empire stadium in nineteen fifty three. And you can say that That stone faced classicism is represented by Stanley Matthews by wingers, by Blackpool winning the Eethic Oven in nineteen fifty three And yet after this defeat to Hungary, as the old certainies fall away And English football enters this period of experimentation. and you've got Don Revy playaggers' deep line cent for in Manchester, which've talked about before And you see, I think this recognition that the mood of a time is about stripping away these inconvenient, inefficient patternents So you see that in Frinc, the destruction of Eouston station which we now look on as this act of cultural vandalism But it's very ornate, it's very grand. Now knock it down Buildings. in a very functional way out of concrete We're knocking down Sanny Matthews and we're rebuilding him out of raw concrete. That is exactly what Ramseay is doing And so Elaine Howard, another cultal critic She writes of brutalism is prioritizing Pragmmentism, teamwork, and an emphasis on efficiency So she's talking about the building style of that period. Andbviously it's partly condioned by economics that a lot of build to do after the war, there's not much money. You have to make it simple, you have to make it cheap Praactmatism, teamwork emphas and efficicy That's Ramsey's football. That's exactly what he's doing So there is this brutalist urge in English culture that has represented in the architecture and also B Ramsey Just a couple of points to pick up on before we go to break. As you say br brutalism coming from a French wayd, it doesn't mean brutal as in they're over aggressive. is more functional would probably be the better expression of it in pragmatic football that he's going to do what it takes to win. Its I think it's really interesting We talked in one of our Patreon editions about nineteen seventy being the end of something for Brazil. The nineteen fifty three cup fininal actually you know, it's meant to be as great for cup final of wingers. It's actually, as you point out, the end of wingers really. I mean, it's kind of its last great hurrah before people start experiment with other ideas. And I can imagine, I mean rem might say my grandma's home, architecture would have been very fussy Like you sort of and everything was very ornate And obviously that my granda wasn't particularly moved from the times. and in the seventies, her home was still reflected the valleys of her forties and fifties and it was fussy and ornate and such like. And the new era, the new post war era, and as you say, new towns are being built in places like Harlowe, aren't they to sort of house people been formed out by the war. It's much more functional much more sort of strategic, maybe Yeah, and I think What we see is fromrom the moment he takes a job Ramseay knows where he wants to end up Now that's not to say he doesn't have new ideas on the way, but he has a blueprint. He knows where he's going And you can see between March nineteen sixty three and the summer of nineteen sixty six This very slow incremental development towards his vision of a brutalist England. I mean, he would not have called it that because it's a French word and he hates foreigners But that's what he was doing He's a patient English empicist is absolutely not tradition And so should we go into the break with some more words from his wife, Victoria stress. this is indy very much of its time He weighs everything in the balance whether it's aiddy little problem of my own or one of his own much bigger worries Then he gives his considered advice Sometimes when I still got my own way, I think If only he'd be wrong just once. But he never is, you know We'll see after the break So welcome back to it was what it was in the second half of part one of our series on England winning the World Cup in nineteen sixty six, sixty years on and particularly onir Alfred Ramsey. The architect, one might say, Jonathan, see what I did there of that win. That is liquid podcasting. It just came to me in that moment Jonathan, he's got the England job. He is seen as repressed Sightly difficult character. How does he get on with the players? How does he introduce himself to them and what sort of overures does he make to them So his first game is the second leg. of a preliminary match for the European Championship of Night sixty four It's against France, they've drawn the first leg one one that situation he's inheriting. And I think it's fair to say Ramseay lays out his markers pretty early So before this first game He gets a group of senior players And he says haveave any of you got any suggestions on how we can improve things? And see your plays niceays weren't tend to be asked their opinions. So they're sort of glancing around awkwardly and Bobby Chartton feels very uneasy in this silence. He thinks like, I've got to say something. someomebody's got to say something this is awful So he says, You know, we always stay at the Hendon Hall Hotel, we train at the Bank of England Ground in Rowhampton you in Southwest London. You they're an hour apart. you know, maybe we could find a different hotel or maybe we could train somewhere different and R' reply I've listen to what you have to say I will leave it as it is That's like all corporate consultations, aren't they? Please put your suggest in here. Yeah, we've listened to what you said we won not be doing anything And there was another occasion when Boby Chartlon's Heort he sort of gets cajoled by the other players and, canan you ask please They've got these sort of official suits, these gotite heavy suits from Simpsons and Picadilly famous tailors We got this sum t cental here, it's to be really hot. And you, these seats are just too warm and Bobby Cartin is sort of forced to go globiously any chance to get a more lightweight suit. So yeah, he's the boss. you can you can have your ideas, he's not going listen to them. I don't think this is a style of management that sustains you well in long term, but att least you know where you are with him He was blunt to the point of being rude, Bobby Charton said Bobby Chl that has to be said, I think he quite likes that strongman leader. he's not bothered by that He knew the game, he knew players and most of all, he understood what they needed and how they should be led And I think that seems to be in the sixties what the vast majority of players think by the seventies, That attitude will have changed I don't think it's untrue today though, as well. I mean I think you'll put up with a lot if someone's leading you in the right direction. Yeah yeah. But I mean, obviously people like Rodney Marsh really chaf against a st. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we should say a cultural backdrop of, you know Everything we said about rutcialism is true, but the swing in sixties is also happening in people free expression and free love and enjoy yourself you know these are not things that Alf Ramseay particularly stands for Yeah. so this first game He's not actually in charge fully. So this is a final game Wh the FA selection Committee Pixs the team. So it's a Ramsy still working with Iipwitch You can see he's clearly got an infuence because Johnny Haynes is left out on he hands hugely gifted Fulham inside forward. Hed had a car crash a little bit earlier and I think there's a sense he hasn't quite got back to his best after a bit of a c celeb the sort of I don't know, Jack Greelish prior to year twenty twenty It's more than that though it's' a much more central thing.' it's more like shopping gathering in Its even that it's a much more centr figure. It's like it's more like Steven Clan dropping Beckon analogy Thank you. Thankks very much. Fobby Chartton Yeah becausecause Bobby Charton believes in an individual as an individual talent. he can't believe that the Hames has been left out and he sort of think because he's not fully fit. He'll be back as soon as he's fit But Ramseay wants team men. He doesn't look Johny Anes is a bit an individualist. U This game goes disastrously badly So one spring at the goal Kie gets kicked in the chest early on And that's maybe a little bit of an explanation But it's not really an excuse. Eng I' beaten five two So this great experiment with this new manager who's doing things his way. It starts with a five two defeat to France. and this is not The France of the The eighties, nineties or now This is a fan that nobody really rates at all So This is this is a problem The what advantage is It means Ramsay has three years to prepare his team with no competitive fixtures. You have no qualifies because of the hosts of the World Cup and they don't have to play in the Eururos in nineteen sixty four. much smaller tourament anyway Ramsey can set things up as he wants. So Okay, five weeks later they're playing Scotland and home Championships You'd think if he's c radical new tactical ideas. He would try and get them introduced quite early. Wh whyy does this not happen I mean, that's a really interesting question. and one of the problems with Ramsey is and one of the reasons why I think he is slightly underestimated. is he never explains anything. He never there wass no Ramsay autobiography He's not giving press compom' we giving huge amounts of detail in his thought processes. I wonder whether he thinks he doesn't want to do too much too soon Did he have to get used to the players players have to get used to him before he starts introducing your really different ways of playing. I wonder if he's maybe a little bit uncertain about his revolution because sixty two three had not gone at all well. So Iwitch You have a sense they've been found out. So maybe he's lost a little bit of faith in that U mayaybe he thought the international level this wouldn't work But anyway England don't really play very well in this game as there is a clamour for paines to come back, he resists it. anything at least he wants and and I think there is a bit of a sense of Have we done the right thing? Is he really the right man for the job Today we'll attempt a feeat once thought impossible, overcoming high interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing, a sofIi personal loan. With it, you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interesterest debt with a soFI personal loan. Visit sofi dot com slash stuck to learn more Loans originated by SopFi Bank NA member FDIC. Terms and conditions Aly NL six nine six eight nine one. And then they rebeat Wales for neal though. I mean, I don't know. I mean Losing to Scotland was quite a big deal back in those days. England Scotland matches were huge. They beat Wales four in in October. I mean significant and we would have thought you know Wales would have been considered quite a good team for England to beat. but Yeah, does it feel like the corner is turning at that stage I think possibly we should just say of Scotland team where you look down the list of players. this is a really good team Jim Baxter John White Inant John, Dennis Law Um ye it's a it's a side with a lot of Great creative talent there Dave McKi as well in that side So Yeah, it's a good Scotland team. It Dave Mc creative talent or is he No, he's but ye Yeahah he your point he's a good passer England and Scotland are quite well matched sides in this year. Yeah. So you know, it's fair to say, but you know, still losing it's kind of a bit like a cut final play in Scotland. so losing it is significant Yeah, and it's at Wbbley and losing at Weembbley is never good. But yes, you're right. by the time they beatating Wales for of October, I think there is an acceptance Johnny Hynes't coming back we now know what Ramseay's way is and it is beginning to get results Um But I think It's a trip to Brazil the following summer, summer ninet sixty four. So they do this rather than playing the e because I haven' qualified for years because I like to visit to France and This tournament called the Mundi Lito and it's specifically designed to help with local preparation You have Brazil, you have Argentina, you have Portugal Now we'll come back to this later on, actually when we get to I think it's going to be in part three when we talk about the Argenta game at the World Cup Be but this really, I think is the game where I really I think this is the where Ramsy's ideaas begin to crystallize. But before that, they have three further fixtures And these are away matches against Portugal, Ireland and the US And this is again where you see Ramsy's management So the night before I set off for Lisbon Boby Charton Jimy Grees, Bobby Mur, Gordon Banks, Ray Wson Georgyon and Johny I gl have a bit Ste and they head into the centre of London F the Hon Hall Hotel And they wind up in a bar called the Beach comoma. Base waterater vote And there it depends et you believe Bobby Charton'sversion of J Geve' vers They either have a couple of gentle pints or They get stuck into a rum based cocktail called a zombie I'm guessing which is Boby Chelton's version and which is Jimmy Creed? It's Bobby the one who has a couple of gentle bites in Jimmy Creed getting stuck into the zombies Exactly that and And at least five of them now again, accounts vary But Bobby Shotton, Bobby Moo, Jimmy Greeeves are definitely all the accounts agree that they're They're three of the five or possibly more than five. They miss the curfew. cururfew is ten thirty PM and they get back late. So Bobby Charton sneaks back at the hotel, he thinks he's got away with it But on his bed He finds his passport I had the dark blue passport in those days on the white pillow As he puts it, shouting its reproach I like to think this is brilliant management for Ramsay He's saying, I know exactly what you've done. He never mentions it. He never says anything to them until they get to Portugal And at that he gets the guilty players together And he says, Look, if I could have got the placemes in time, you would all have been sent home I don't know It's it's great. He's making those players feel grateful to him, but he's making them feel really small He's making them know that this is not acceptable at all But he's not costing himself their use I mean, you really have been really stupid cutting your nose off just spite your favorite not to covered it getting rid of that set of players before the World Cup. but equally I'm going to sound like an old man it' standard of standard. he has to lay down a law. You cannot have footballers breaking curfews and going off to London drinking that He has to impose authority on these players Yeah, I mean, it's interesting Bobby Charlon's one of those involved, who we think of as a very sort of clean living. Anyways, they play these games and they go off to Brazil for Monday, Lito. And it's sort of disastrous in terms of results. I mean, I think everybody at this point is thinking Whwld Cup's going to be a shambles So they they get there They play Brazil. The day after theyrive they're clearly not ready.' a bit of jet lag they get beat in five one They draw one against Portugal, they lose one nill to Argentina. As I say, I think we'll We'll go into that in more detail when we get to the Argentina game in ' sixty six because I think that is a very significant game But what we can say now is Ramseay learns but against really high level sides, He can't afford to play four to four whichich he knew. know, he knows that from Epwitch. I don't know why he's he he's not applying lessons he' learned at of Switch, This convincing Cments in forty four. Al almost doesn't matter how good your players are It will not work again. It's good opposition and When he's criticized for going to the Monolito or doing bad at the Mondolito. His argument is lookook, we could play Switzerland or Northern Ireland or we could score eight goals, whatever That's not how you win World Cups. That's irrelevant. What Winsor Cps is beating good teams and we have to learn how to play against them. I mean and I think actually that's it seems obvious But it's a lesson that even now, I think We haven't fully absorbed as a football culture You know, England wentin a group game in in qualifying or in It a greatrou game in the tournament badly one nailed Ed be said, Oh now we've got to be thrashing this lot Doesn't matter They being beating around six two did not make England any likelier to win the World Cup in Qatar What mattered was playing France. I Lost I mean, I think it was also innovative and I appreciate they're only going to Mundolito because they haven't qualified for the eos. but As you say, it doesn seem crucial for getting his World Cup plans together and playing against South American opposition. I mean, think You know, he probably wouldn't have learned as much by going to European championships and it reminds me of Dan we're going to do an addition on England's reboot, aren't we? But Dan Ashworth, when he basically stops the England youth teams from playing in the victory shield against England, Scotland, Northern Ireland Wales, because says well, they just play the same academy players playing against each other. They want to go and play Portugal, they want to go and play Argentina and it's similar type thinking this was done out of expediency, I guess because I'd failed to qualify for a tournament, but it might prove, you know a crucial stepping stone to win in a Wor Cup Yeah the press unfortunately I mean, I think maybe we're sort of sort of at least recognize that now even if in the moment of ha to write a match report when England have been Dreadful that leads of one to Japan We perhaps don't remember the purpose of that game. But I think particularly back then And I think even when I came into the profession twenty five years ago Be this sort almost a manand It's your duty to entertain us. We are the press and we have turned up. Th fans have turned up, they've paid all money to be here and you produce that But Ramseay doesn't care. he couldn't care less about the press thing. And you see he's slowly beginning to adapt. He's moving from that forty four to a four hundredty three. So he's pulling one of the wingers back. It's an asymmetric four hundred thirty three So the next question he has to answer is who's going to play at center back alongside Bobby Moo? And throughout sixty four, the most of sixty four, The preferred option is Morris Norman of Tottenham But Moris Norman is beginning to play full back for spurs And Ramsy think so I I need I need a center back and I need a defensive center back because Doping a Brilliant ball playay over the is, great read of the game it is He's not the most physical defender. I need somebody tall and combatative who can do the dirty work So Bobby were Now there is no obvious candidate We've already heard from him. But he's almost thirty. I think this's what's easy to forget about Jack Cheltam. He's twenty nine. Nobody has thought until a couple of years earlier that he's remotely near the right level. So Don Revy has seen it. Don Revevy is, I mean you may remember from the episodes we've done on Revy Jack Chartton thinks he's going join Manchter Night he's falling out with Revy Maplesy was interested in him. And he then feels that Busby sort of messed him around And so he goes back to Revevy and says, all right, I'll sign. And Revy says, Look, if you knuckle down, you will play for England. You're good enough to play for England. And this seems an absurd thing to say at the time By the beginning of nineteen sixty five Jack Charlton has emerged as the outstanding candidate. And so in april nineteen sixty five for the homeome Championship match in Scotland, Alf Ramsey turns to Jack Charlon for the first time. And I think this is astonishing in those days, particularly to pick a twenty nine year old a year before the World Cup begins for his debut, it's unthinkable to the press at the time But even Chuck Chherelton's a little bit baffled by this decision, isn't he? Well, and Bobby is as well. I h he's baffled. Do you think Bobby there might be a little bit of sibling rivalry going on thereough? So Bobby Chelton says I mean, he's talking about jackets at leads One minute Jack was a happy go lucky character The next he was a key player, a very hard talented professional team But he's bewildered by it. I mean, of course it's the great story as well that The phone call goes through to Revi And just before the Epicp semifinal between Leeds and Manchester United and Revy is told like Jack Tartton has been called up for England for this game against Scotland And Revy decides not to tell him until after the game. he doesn't want him distracted Leads win that game. onene it's a pretty brutal game as Gamstwon United and Leeds tended to be at the time Revy then tells Jack in the dress room afterwards, and Jack's reaction, this is before he'd have a big falling out with Bobby is to go straight into the other yeah, the opposing dressing room. Having just woreon an epic of semi final I Bobby, Bobby, I've been called up for England Bobby'saction is brillant Bobby goes Well done, I fuck off Oh yeah. Bospible B might have said that even if even if Man Unitedited parden, to be fair, but yeah, to be fair going into gate cras in the opposition dress room when you just knocked them out the Eic upone find is probably not good for. Even if it is your brother. Yeah, you're right. J Jack himself is bothered. So he goes to Ramsey and because he's Jack Charlon, he's very blunt. He s, whyy neth have you pick me? And Ramseay says I have a pattern of play in mind and I pick the best players to fit the pattern I don't necessarily always pick the best players And Jack is not anything like Bobby Moe. He doesn't have his elegance. He doesn't have his confidence on the ball. But that's the point Mamsey goes on You're a good tackler and you're good in the air and I need those things And I know you don't trust Bobb Moore So Jack's a straight man, he's a physical enforer. So what does he mean by it? He means that he will cover for any mistake Bobby More might make that because he's such a cautious natural defender, I guess Yeah, and I think also he'll be shouting out. that why bar we were casually wandering about looking at his options, Jack would be screaming at him As of course he famously does for the final goal in the six six World Cup final. Yeah as Boby Ma plays a great ball into sort of left channel for Jeff first to run through and score the fourth Jack screaming at him. put it out, just put it out. because Jack knows these are the final seconds. You put that ball phone off in the stand.'s not coming back in time for to even take the throw So yeah, it's about that partnership. It's about Maximizing your strength and minimizing your weaknesses, how do we get Bobby Mo and his passing ability and even encouraging his passing ability How do we do that without compromisise yourselves defensively, you bring in somebody like Jack Chelton And you know who the other player who makes his debut that day against Scotland is? I'm guessing it was Nobby Stars because it says out in a notes It was notobby Siles. But you see a team is now come together. I mean, this is the other great component of Alf Ramsey is that he understands and maybe in a way that Englishot hadn't understood, as you explained in the beginning that it is You need different components in the team and different types of players to make it balance. and that is quite a modern idea. Yeah, it is. and the thing is no selection committee would ever pick Nobby Syilles because He's not an obviously great footballer What he is, Bobby Charlton says, is a real professional, nothing airy fairy, nothing for show, just a player doing his job at the highest level Ramsy says, he's a player you could trust. And I think that idea of trust you can rely on these people And of course, by having Nobby cells there And just for people who don't know, Nobby Sales is a very hard working, very aggressive play who plays I mean at times he plays a centreback, he's not tall that the United when United finally go to back four But mostly he plays at the back of the midfield. he's this little terrier You can barely see You know he's got these huge thick glasses has to wear contuct lens when he plays, but I mean, they're always dropping. He's got a sort of clumsiness about him as well hasn't he? He's got a sort of Is that a norm of wisdom quality to Nobby Syles There's a famous picture of him with the World Cup isn't there he dancing and holding a Wld Cup but it's yeah it's like a it's like a little comedy character and he was If I say team mascot, that seems very derogatory but it's like he was a hard man enforcer, but he clearly wasn't on the level with players like Cheltter and more in terms of technical skill But by having him there at the back of midfield,