The Quarter Final Selection

Welcome to It Was What It was. I'm Rob Draper. I'm the co host of the Football History podcast with Jonathan Wilson. and with the World Cup underway, we've got a special four part series on England's nineteen sixty six World Cup win. yes, sixty years of hurt. We're going into the origin story of that. We go into proper depth into a story you might have heard before, but hopefully there's going to be a load more detail. And if you enjoy it, please do head over to It was What It was. And if you sign up to our Patreon channel, you'll get everything, all four episodes straight away on demand. You won't have to wait for them. But if you want to wait for them, just head over to It was what it was, listen to them on there. If you go onto it was what it was feed, there's almost two hundred episodes now of all sorts of histories from Colombia's nineteen ninety four World Cup to Arsenal Liverpool nineteen eighty nine title Climax. Every you could think of is on there. But also if you go onto a patreon, there's a whole history of the World Cup on there from nineteen thirty to twenty twenty two and lots of bonus episodes on football hooliganism, on why Brazil are not doing well in the twenty first century, all sorts for you to enjoy. So do check those out and we hope you enjoy this episode We won't win the World Cup But don't blame Alphare Ramsey. No one would win it with this lot. Welcome to It Was What it was. I'm Rob Draper. I'm here with Jonathan Wilson. The World Cup is upon us. We're all very excited and we're so excited that we thought we'd look back sixty years to well for us is a significant moment and hopefully for our foreign listeners and even some of our Celtic listeners might appreciate a little bit of oo looking back at England nineteen sixty six World Cup we're in part two we're coming up to the World Cup. You gave us some great background on soir Alph Ramseay and England's run up to the World Cup. We're now going to get into the immediate year before and the actual start of the finals. and Jonathan, that was a great Jimmy Hill, one of your footballing heroes at the time manager of Coventry City, a visionary in every way in football, a really good man, I think. we can all agree. But on a rare occasion, he's completely wrong about something Yeah, I mean H One of the most despicable manen ever to work in football who gets things wrong as he always did and was tolerated for far too long on British TV and British newspapers and should have been drumed out of the game There are alternsative views on Jimmy Hill anyway. I know you're not a big fan of him, but he's a big football figure and the point of an idiot of himself as he do so often after this. Well I think the point is that it's quite representative of the chattering class of football at the time, but England are not rated. The people think they're a poor side and Rams' making a, you know maybe the best of a bad job. I mean, he's not blaming Ramsey for that but they don't think the players are much good Yes Yeah, exactly that So we left it after a two t drag in Scotland in the April of nineteen sixty five, which is Jack Charlton's international debut the basis of a team is there. you've got Gordon Banks in goal, you got the back four Cowen Mir Jack Charlton and Ray Wilson, you got Nobby Siles in midfield also his debut that game Bobby Charlton there. so they were reprising their partnership at Manchester United. So You can see the World Cup side just beginning to come into focus. They then that autumn there's sort a two to draw with Scotland, you know as we said in the last e episode, England played really well. they go toun a then they get two injuries they' got n men and that's why Scotland got back intoju it. So people think, yeah this TD drawers pretty good. But then that autumn They draw nil nill with whales and then They pick the same team for Gameingst Austria. and this is the game that prompts Jimmy Hill's comment that we opened with So this is Barry Bridges of Chelsea's partner with Jimmy Greves up frront It's a forty four. Youve got Terry Paye and John Conolly on the wings and then you go Bobby Charlon playing in the middle of midfield And they're a little bit unlucky But they lose three two to Austria at Wembleley And this prompts this outcry. Now look, it's only the third time England have ever lost to non British Irish opposition at Weembley. so people weren't any defeated Weembley was there was a bad thing This Austria side had lost four one to West Germany ten days earlier But this district sun. A knight of shame There's booze and J and are stands When the final whistle blows is a slow hand clap. And Donald Saunders in the telegraph writes England's welcca plans thoughtought to be progressing steadily only a few months ago Stuttered time be hoped This is the October of nineteen sixty five So we're talking nine, ten months before the World Cup And it looks like England have no chance And I'm very heartened to see that even In the Guardian, Albert Byram is talking about a sorry lack of spirit and people allude to the fact that there's an absence of passion. So it's even in the sixties I guess forever it's been a standard go to that when your teams playing badly It's because they don't care. they're overpaid. you know, if only they had the passion for it, then they would be be better. But Ramsy is, I mean, I think this is the strength of Ramseay. We talked about his character in the first episode quite Disconnected, It doesn't really bother about other people. He's K of unconcerned Yeah, he says he's disappointed but not very disappointed. Then this next line I just think it's incredibly modern. this is something that Yeah, Lem Mini could have actually not Lim Senin, that's a bad exam. He'd addressed it in weird managerial jog and But it's something that sort of Ppp Guaraniola could say. I think I've heard him say something very similar to this We played some brilliant football in midfield The work rate was high, but we failed where it mattered most in the two penalty areas That's do I think that's a weirdly sort of important thing to say. But I always think it's a bit of a con when the manager falls back on Yeah, I was watching slightly different games because I'm on a higher level. and what you don't understand is that we play some brilliant football despite our five knil defeat, you know, we actually you know, if you break it down on the data, we look fantastic. But yeah, I mean, I do think I think there is another thing where coaches do have a different eye for the game than we do and we're of course focused on outcome And they are trying to see a progression and you can see but Garthll Southscape fell on this quite a lot and Tule's done it quite recently then. Well, yeah, but you it might have been a bad defeat, but I saw some things that were quite encouraging And I think in friendlies, which obviously the international teams play More consequential friendlies maybe is the best way putting it Well it doesn't matter who wins a friendly So the process, the underlying structures are the important thing It's also interesting that the pressure trying to work out what's gone wrong And it's fascinating. they a lot of them Work out what the problem is but they draw completely the wrong conclusion from it. So Barram, who I think is actually a pretty viscous anterry patronising The truth is a lot of journistics I don't know anything about football. It's really obviously they don't. Barum, I think is somebody who does know what he's talking about And he he's unconvinced by Bobby Chartlon play in the middle of midfield. He thinks that it leaves you a little bit exposed. When you showed me that formation of forty four of Bobby Central Mid Field I just thought I mean that can't even in the sixties that can't work Yeah, and If the The way Ramseay looks at this isn't that Bobby Charlon playing the minimum field is the wrong person He says, well, maybe the forty four isn't the issue. And And you got Brian James, who again, I think is actually one of the journists who does read the game pretty well wrriting in the mail, he says the wingers, especially Connlly Got the ball across often enough but with no great accuracy So maybe Why don't we stop using wingers and bolts to the middle of midfield? Wouldn't that be a great idea I mean, the key thing is Boby Cholton is perhaps he is your best attacking player How can we make this system serve him? And that is what Ramsey's going to do spectacularly well at the World Cup. Yeah, we should just remind people Bobby Charotlon had spent a lot of his early career playing on the left. He'd been a left winger when he first came through And when he first plays to Fngland he plays on the left So I think maybe Mrs. Baum's point of could he go back to the left I So it's not as It's not quite as a bleak a way of looking at it as it may seem M perspective, where we think of it as a central driving player He had played on left previously. So I think that's what Barm's driving at. But then there's this other issue and this is an issue that will become hugely important come a Wor Cubp itself which is that of Jimmy Greeves This is Donal Swnds in the telegph. So few goals have been scored by this side in the past year that the attack seems to suffer an anxiety neurosis when an opportunity presents itself And he does think there's a problem with Greaves A Grives has been ill he's come back into the sideid and knowingar was best And he says No manager could afford to banish a gift of a player from his welc up plans, but Grieves at present is not doing the job for which he has chosen And I think this is really interesting. This is the first time What we say nine ten months from a world cup when journalalss are beginning to think maybe Greeves and Greves don't forget has scored hundreds of goals. He's obviously a brilliant player 's got great first touch, he's very popular, particularly with the London based media I think he's widely got even more than Bobby Chalttenon as being England's best player. I think in some sense he probably is more naturally technically gifted than Bobby Charton This is the first time that you start to see the doubts Brian James vers ofgavves is a pale, spasmodic shadow while Barrim asks How long can England wait for Greeves to recover his old scoring power But nobody at this point is yet saying Maybe we don't pick Greeaves. Maybe it doesn't matter how good he is, how good he was Maybe he's just not the right profile whichich again, I think speaks to Ramsy's brilliance. It takes a very brave man to leave out an iconic figure. We don't know As we recalled this, we don't know whether Nimar' going to go to the World Cup with Brazil, but you know I imagine Carlo might be quite hard nose on that decision. But when you've got an iconic national figure who is just seen as great, but perhaps his past his best You're looking quizzical, Jonan, what I said wrong Well Jimy Grieves at this point is a lot younger than they are. So I mean, I take the point, Jimm Geves, this point is only twenty six. Gossh so isy. Yeah he should be coming into on his mid thirties. Yeah. It's he's had this illness and there's a sense that he's not quite what he was before that. But people are assuming that he'll get back to his best. It's just, he's out illness. he's out of form as a result. I mean, it's C It's more like a better illusion would be the Phil Folden can under move again we don't know whether Phil Folden' going probably not. but I mean, this is a player of a season from a couple of years ago Bays had a dip in form and surely he's a brilliant player. We need him on the team, but you know Well maybe maybe even Bellingham is closeer And obviously brilliant player who's played brilliant New F England recently But it' seen as some doesn't quite fit in the tactical structure that the coach is trying to trying to employ Beacaking of Bellingham though, Spain provides a little glimmer of hope and a nice segue for England. they go over to Spain to play is this a friendly game Yeah, it's a friendly in the December sixty five. So they beat Northern Ireland two one at Weembley, don't play particularly well in that games so nobody's noobody should really change of opinion on the back of that Greves missed that game. he misses this game in Spain in december sixty five And Spain don't forget, they won the European Championship in nineteen sixty four. So they were a good side, really good side. And Ramsey does not pick the forty four. He's given up on forty four weirdly late given he hadn't played forty four Lippwitch for a long time. picks a four three three or what's described as a four hundred thirty three But this seemams got Joe Baker and Roger Hunt through the middle. It's got Alan Ball Sutling back on the right side. So Nobby Styles says actually, it's more of a four one thirty two So this side you've got Joe Baker and Roger Hunt Theres the T forwards You've got Bobby actually Bobby Charlon moves to the left in this game You've got George Easton playing through the middle in front of Lobby Salars and Alan Bor Sutling on the right Nobbi Sarays is actually more of a four one thir two And I'm not sure really how many journalists work out what Ramsey's doing. It still describes as a four three three. People see Allen Ball as being a winger This is the first game. Wh this term wingless wonders that' be attached to that England side It's the first first game where that is used and it's Peter Loreenzo. Journalas for the son, very fine taboid Jouronalas, a father of Matt Lorezo a TV presenter I still, even though he's come up with that toone, I'm not sure how many people really work out what Ramseay's plan is I mean, you can see the shape of the well in that four one, three two that that's of going to be the shape of the World Cup seamen. And I think Alan Ball will come to the other crucial midfield in that conundrum later. but Alan Ball's energy, the fact that he can shuttle back and forth game changing and Spain just can't cope with it. It's it's one of those the way you describe it, it's one of those games where one team seems to have an extra player and Spain are just kindind of a good Spain side of overwhelmed by England even though I think it's only two nit, isn't it? but it could have been a lot more I mean, Ramsey didn't care about racking up big scores, he cared about control. S England go ahead after eight minutes, three Jo Bako Yes. U Je Baker is I mean, isn't it really interesting I think he was I mean, really, he was Scottish, but by an accident of birth he ends up playing he end up playing international footballing that he played for Hibissr for most of his career U And then Baker suffers a thigh injury just people haveal time Norman Hunter comes on. so This is at this point, you could use substitutes in friendly matches for injuries before halfim I no one take thenen drops into the in the second half, he drops into the back four alongside Jack Chelton with Boby M pushing the midfield alongside Bobby Charlton and George Eastteron and What this means is with ball also in the shutling role, England suddenly have three runners coming from deep and Spain can't pick them up. This is exactly what Ramssey done with Jimmy Ledbt at Iipwitch, except he's now doing it with three players and it's u It the point, I think, Patreon members will know this from our nineteen ninety episode where England suddenly discover playing a back five is not necessarily more defenseive than playing a back four. Maybe just means your players are coming from different positions and that can be really, really handy So Ray Wilson says theirir fullbacks didn't know who to mark They were standing there ball watching and we ripped them to bits And of course, this is very reminiscent Oh. the description of how Harry Johnston the Portsbouath in England centre back could not handle Nanda Hid Auti dropping off our Hungry game and hungry beating in the sixth three at Wednbday in ninet fifty three You pull your forwards away from the defenders and the defenders have got a problem confused I mean I think there's two things going on here that that he's yeah rem modeling that midfield and he although Chelton's not playing centrally in this game, he's going to find a role for Chelton behind the two two strikers which is going to cause all sorts of problems for defenders at the World Cup. So Brian James writes Is that expxpress, I think Brian James would have been? Mail mail in sorry, in the mail. Tonight I saw the shape of England's soccer to come But you say that most people haven't quite clocked on to at this point, but there's a dramatic friendly now where they go to Poland. This is just before the World Cup, isn't it? It's in the spring of ' sixty six Yeah it's the last they play before the World Cup So Yeah, I mean, England had been really good in Spain and people have people in the know have started to wake up So Joseive Via Longa, the Spain coach sing they were phenomenal Ramsey doesn't bother to speak to the players after the game because he knows how good they've been. And Ramssey's fear now this is a very Ramsy thing to think is o no, we've been too good too early. what do the players get overconfident And what he then does because he's such a secretive U Pressed man whereereas other people might be tempted to sort of go on this this victory tour before the World Cup. He thinks now I'm going to put this away now. We've done that. We've I know how we're going play in the Wor Cup. I've worked out And the key thing now is not to let anybody else see it So ye, there's a handful of other friendlies in the beginning of sixty six But it's this game in Hhotzov you know in Silesia in southwestern Poland when he finally brings out again, just just one more, one more look at it just before the World Cup And there's this amazing I mean, Ramsy is not a man for rhetorical flourishes, but he announces the whole team and goes through all banks, the usual back for Cohen Moore, Jack Chherlton and Wilson styles Chelton and Bald in middfield, Greaves and Hunt up frront And then he pauses Yeah. Now bear in mind England have played seven games after thepain match and not played this wingless formation since He says, a number eleven pause he starts to stand up because he wants to get out before anybody can ask him a question Martin Peters And the jeal so stunned, the silence And then Ramsey' gone from a room and there's up forall. M M what? Where's the wing it? There's no winget. What are you doing And which just shows I mean, we said this in part one, didn't we that the revolutionary nature of Ramsay is this very sort of repressed foral Englishman who in many respects conforms to the stereotype does very interesting things. Martn pizz' is a really industrious midfield, a good technical player, but a bit like Ball is a young midfielder who's going to give you a lot of energy. and I suppose the idea is that he's going to reprise a similar role to Alan Baalling in covering both the wing and the midfield centre areas Yeah, I mean, he's young, He's only twenty two, Martin Peters at this point He's very versatile He obviously plays with Jeff Hearst at West Ham. And he's used hitting crosses to him. notot I think there's any guarantees a hearse is going to play at this point. it's still Greavves and hunt. and you, it was appears to be the first choice pair and you know, in this game in huts of it, it is Greavves and Hunt U But I think for Ramsays he is the final piece of a jigixaw'. He's better on the ball, He's more attack minded than Norman Hunter, who would be an option for midfield But he's also more teactnically aware more prepared to tuck in let way Wilson go outside him than Bobby Charton n or George Easton would be and In this system, in this four one, three two as Nobby Sars describes. I think As he's right to describe it U Not the journers for time describe as that they still seem to see as a four three three England play really well. only win one nil, but that's a very ramsy way doing things. control the game You need to score one to win it Bobby Charton lays in Roger Hunt for the only goal But they control that midfield. and that's the key thing U so this is the World Cup winning side apart from Greves, not Jeff Heirstst And Martin Petz I met towards end of his life and interviewed him was a lovely man and he's one of the many members of this world up Squad he sadly ended up with dementia, isn't he? because it was obvious when I was interviewing him it was Um Obvious to me that he was heading that direction. So it was very poignant to meet this great play because it really such a good player and such a key part of this side and you quote Jeffy Green in the timees saying that Peters was an outstanding success in this game. So often when a player was in trouble tonight, he looked for help and Peters was never very far away. He came close to adding to his gold in Finland. He's that player who I don't know. we should say this is only a second count Finland is first this is his second. He's that player who just makes the team tick. He's not the most glamorous player but he just does the work that makes everybody out shine, which Alen Ball does as well. And without those two players England just and without Syles S of sweeping up at the back of the midfield England do not have the platform to win the World Cup Yeah. and the fact they have Ball can get forward. Charlon can get forward. Peters can get forward. But they're coming from slightly deeper. Ray Wilson gets forward. They've got people coming from deep and deffensces at this point find that really difficult to deal with. So Jeffrey Green carries on says a fluid tactical plan had England flowing back and forth like a red tide in their unfamiliar red shirts If you think the traditional English way of playing is G the ball, give it to the winger, the wing bes full back, put it in the box It's really predictable But now they've got players going from deep across the pitch and also from left back And that for teamers at a time is really, really hard. to to deal with to pick up. And you know it doesn't seem that complicated to us Because we've seen sixty years of this, but this was really new Is is the point where Ramseay does his famous He's being quizzed by all the pressesays sit back, gentlemen and relax and watching him win the World Cup. He does that on a few occasions I mean, he does it right back in nineteen sixty four which is remarkable. So I think by this point, he's really worried about people getting to Cocky. So he he's confident, but he also he doesn't really want people asking about what he's done He wants the Spain and Poland games to sort of drift under the radar. The Spain game you kind of get away with because there was that injury And so and no one's going to see it back in the day. Yeah no,'s no TV coverage. Yeah. So uness you had a scout there, you' had no idea England would have paid that system. you know a scout there suddenly Yeah there's there's no one hunter coming on for a secondent forward and you o God, have they rearranged? I't you ha itt just done that because of the injury It's that is there's a confusion built in because of the injury. hereere It's in Hots off. It's behind the iron curtain. It's not easy to get to If you you know, if you're going to hide something away, do in a friendly in in Horof is is the perfect place to do it And with that sort shouldh we Go into the break and then we will start the World Cup after the break in the second half where we absolutely will not be hiding away Ramseay's genius So welcome back to It was what it was when the second half of part two of our special on the nineteen sixty six England World Cup win. and Jonathan, it is the start of the World Cup, the reel here of the World Cup pickles That's all been dealt with and you can listen to that on another podcast. He's found the World Cup. So those is yourim a trophy to be presented despite England haven't managed to lose it. but back to the football Alf Ramsey has this great four one three two formation. He's kept it under wraps. He's got an opening game at the World Cup. The nation' in a state of high agitation expectation It's against Ugui who of course have pedigree in history, but it's at Wembley so England are just going Sweep them away over their bold new formation and usher in a glorious era Well, that does seem to be what people think which really is not justified at all. I mean, Uruguay have won the World Cup twice at this point Dave Cam in Eland last time we played them 've haammered Scotland in the fifty four World Cup as well them seven one look this is not as good a Uugoay side as the sides of the early fifties and certainly not as good as the side of the twenties and and nineteen thirty But still, there's absolutely no reason for anybody to thinkin England willll have an easy game here It's very bizarre for the English public and English press to sort of overrate their side and dismiss a foreign nation in a group stage game at a World Cup. I mean, that never happens these days. So yeah, I judge our nineteen sixties counterparts and go what were you thinking So This is Ramsy, so he's worked out how he's going win the World Cup And so the start of the World Cup, he doesn't do it. He's going to hide it away a little bit longer This is So it's quite smart, although it might have cost him had he lost against Yogo Yeah, you got Cves and hunt together up front and John Conneolly from Burnley covers them on the left side So This some people say, oh Ramsey was just sort of feeling his way through the tournament and he didn't quite didnidn't quite know how he wass going to play and it's like Boby Robson in eighty six and nineteen ninetiesort changing formation mid tournament Now, I'm certain he knows what he's doing. it's such a Why would he hide it away, bring it out and kind it you h off and then Yeah It's been so effective playing that four and three two twice he's done it If he wanted to play here he have played it. he was doing it on purpose. he was No we're traditional side. we're playing with playing with this winger. Andngland actually play pretty well. They dominate the ball, they have sixteen corners, they have fifteen shots they can't score. They draw Nil Nil Ram is particularly surprised. He's not even that disappointed He's in his xenophobic worldview, He knows what South Americans are like And that is nasty. they cheat. they'll do anything to win a game. So to get out of the game without a major diplomatic incident and without losing That's fine. And does this also show the values you talked about in part one of going to Mundalito and He's really broad and The sides knowledge of playing at South American sides could ' a key part of the World Cup. So he's got a specific plan for Uruguay, which is probably honed because of his experience of South American football Yeah, I think that's true. I mean Yeah they played Argentine in Brazil in Monday Lita rather than Iguiba. I think Well is not gsy. Yeah Yeah. I'm sure Ramsay on some level thinks all Latins are the same essentially. I think is partly what he thinks. but also there are clear actual parallels between how Uruguay and Argentina play football. he knows they'll be very cynical. He knows he You can't really dribble against him because you're just going to get foued. You've got to keep a ball away from them. But obviously the public hate this in a mail, Brian James speaks of Urguay as unambitious and uncompromising, which I think is probably true, I think Yeah know, if you're Uruguay Why would you not just go and sit deep and Yeah, it's the only game we w upp It' at. Weembleys against the host a draw is fine for you But the headline, I think is what really sort of gives you a sense of the mood of a nation after this game angry, baffled. Goolless England Yeah, we're speaking as a former jouralous. I can imagine Brian James going I didn't write the headline. you think my match port is quite considered and then someone back at a desk has just gone right. This lot's rubbish But there' another male jonist's very much in the tone of the mail. I love that you've quoted. JL Manning. Tell us about Jail Manning and what his diagnosis of the problem is Jail Bano is amazing. I don't think there's any figure quite like him now So well, okay But he's u H's you know the the photo byline He looks like a very stern man, probablyro agge around sixty with big glasses He's actually forty two I But she's got this kind O manan fussy angry stick. And you he's got his tone and he's not going to change it. Completely alien to the male of today. Can I just say that when Snos were a thing that the editor at the Daily Mail launched a campaign against Snos because it was sort of damaging the English game. Anyway. So ye he's I mean, he's perpetually disguntled And you know, he's not a man to kind of think maybe this is clever tactics So he says Even the commentators are going all foreign just you thinking about football, that' that's a terrible sort of foreign affectation They talk down to us as if football was a new television panel game which for natives to seeing for the first time. You know the clever, clever fellows I refer to There are those who say arrogantly, of course, Some people thought it was dull, but we in the game were fascinated by the tactics It's a great pity football crowds are not better educated. they'd enjoy it so much more Educated? aboutb football To understand football requires the intellectuality of the gat As a man who's devoted his life to writing about football taxes, I'm sure you concur with what's his name LL JL Manning JL Manning, I should say Lll cool Jay for second different personalities I think that altogether. The only thing I would sympathize with him on is it does annoy me when there's a tactical Neil Neill and people I mean, sometimes they are fascinated, but normally they're not. and there's a lot of affectation around that Ohh yes, but you know No me it's a bad gy What I think's fascinating here is ye I alluded to it in the first h with that Ramsy quote about having to be better than both boxes It sort of feels like the beginning of modern football discours because I don't think anybody would write this Rite in the same way today. echoes of that absolutely. Football over intellectualized. like yeah o always be talking about trick artistters and fantas Easters and registers Well I actually think that attitude's more common. if you talk about data, you would absolutely see that written about data from football today or Dean Saunders, Yeah, in my day we just called it chasing the ball just pressing. you know, it's the same thing. it's hating jargon. and to some extent, I sort of sympathize that I think there are people who use jargon to make wor in words that are used which I don't understand Yeah. There are definitely people who use that jargon to make themsel make it look like they're saying more complicated things than they actually are But I think Manning is a particular type. I mean, we'll keep quoting him because he has a great tournament. He's very, very quotable. But I think actually the person who gets this right is Ray Wilson The Rableses are very considered very good commentative commenter on football And he says and he's very he' quite sympathetic. He says In nineteen sixty six, the supporters had been weaned on the football just after the war, where everything was open Crowds didn't understand when teams came to defend So he sort of he understands why the crowds are acting as they do, while also saying they were wrong And it is also true that certainly these days in a televisual tournament, you get a lot of people watching football who don't normally watch football. don't necessarily understand that it's hard to be I mean, I'm not saying I'm not trying to defend England's performance against thevak and Svene and the euros, but you know, it it's not qu likeite the walkover you think it's going to be. Yeah in know zero twenty twenty four. give it his Manning's great quote, what he concludes th because I yes it's worthy of airing The final line of this column. I am willing to bet that a team which plays this rubbish will not survive the quarterfinals But I think that's a test though, isn't it? Of you know, don't make huge pronouncements unless you're going to qualify them Well, of course, the previous year, the sixty five of a cup final whichich if you watch it now, it's a perfectly decent game which is one to one by Liverpool the gst leads And it's Peter Wilson in the mirror and every time think this is a desperately boring game I say it looks totally normal to our eyes now. It's just both teams aren't going hellful e for in attack, they sort of They considered they pass the ball sideways at times they're taking the pace out of the game on occasions. and But this to a to a footballing public who Yeah, seeee maybe half a dozen games a year if that. This looks much slower than either Matthew's final or Yeah, the great games of the fifties the great Epicop finilals of myth. and Peter Wilson says Yeah, I'm told that if we survive igors of the World Cup this systems football is how we're going have to play If that is true, I want no part of it. Shall we say that by the final this book of, Peter Wilson' tone has changed quite significantly? Does he want a part of it? We shall find out in part three. So But the other group games against Mexico, I mean, to be fair, they're toiling a bit against Mexico, aren't they? and they're kind of saved by just one of the great Bobby Children Goals Yeah, and it occurs me it's actually quite like Argentina in twenty twenty two. I mean, England obviously drew rather than losing the opening game And then it's the second game when which was against Mexico for Argentina, I think wasn't it Yeah. Yeah that suddenly there's a moment of magic and the thing opens up and everybody relaxes But yeah, it's u Seven mines be a halfim. It's still Nil Neil I think the crowd are getting pretty restressive And then Well, Jack Chart says it was him that he gives you assist That was was one of his sort of set pieces in his afternoon of speaking where hes sort of jokingly takes credit for his brother's brilliant goal. A actuallyually not even that's true. It's Roger Hunt. He pokes it into Bobby Choton's path. He s surges forward And probablyb Chon He was hugely influenced by Jimmy Murphy, the great assistant to to Mappplers with Manchter United And Jimmy Murphy really is the man who takes the raw material of Bobby Selton and turns him into the football he becomes And they would do these endless sessions whenah Bobby's in his late teens way one of the things they do would be ing Bfy toss ball for him and you have to chase it one touch and then if the ball's in front of him, just hit it as hard as you can. less eight feet from the ground And don't aim it Ke it down, hit it hard and You don't have to put in the cor Yeah the keeper's not going to save it if you hit it well enough and This is what happens. Bobby Chartlon moves forward. Jimy Murphy always said, if the space is fr it, just keep going. No point doing anything else. Bobby T and keeps going from the center circle then He's just you can see he's always just waiting for the ball to sit right in the stride and when it does And he's about twenty five yards out. And it's actually If you look at it, it's a it's pretty much exactly the same spot that Jackie Milbourne scored his famous goal in in the cup final in fifty one. Jackie Milban, of course being the cousin of Bobby Choton's mother, so you're part of the same same family. and And he hits his shot from twenty five yards and just like Jackie Milban shot in a fifty warden Epic up final It flies at the top corner. Kiv has got no chance Nnato Kaldan It's an absolutely brilliant goal. I think's the best goal in Boby Chartelton's care. I think it's one of the great E the gos of all time. But it's also a crucial goal for this campaign because England suddenly can relax. They're not going to draw a second game Nil Nil Bobby Chartlon runs off as a mad celebration he emits later He just sort of had this euphoria. J joy at playing and Boby Chartp was not particularly joyful man. Has this joy at playing been part of this occasion And admits he's absolute exaust by the end of a celebration But I think you see that the release that he feels and the whole team feels in So I've got my quick name check for Great England goals that this ranks alongside. Gazo ninety six pelling zero twenty twenty four Maybe Plat in nineteen ninety. Michael Lowan against Argentina and Michael Lan against Argentina, Sharing him against the Dutch in ninety six. Oh yeah that's good one. I like she against the Dutch in ninety six Sharing him sets him lays him off, doesn't he? Yeah? Yeah. The Brooken goal in Budapest against Hungary in eighty one. Yeah, but it's not quite so consequential is it? But yeah. I mean Bobby Charlton says it was the loveliest most exhilarating feeling I ever had as a footballer, which given Body Achievement's career is ye is something. There's going to be another good Chararton gold We're saving up for part three, but wait for that. So France is an eas thing it might actually be part four I think we going forward. we spend quite a lot of time talking about Argenta but anyway, that's okay something to look forward to. Okay later on in the series. England are in control, but they finally get the second fifteen there's some time It's really nice passer Bobby Charlon to Grees on the left side of the box, he shot saved but Roger Hunt knocks in the rebound. And I think you see the importance ofob each Chon there, not scoring goals, but also setting goals up It means they've got three points from the two games, a win and a draw, Uruguay who I think Pret clearly the second best team in the group. They only draw in Mexico And in their last game And what that means is that England only need to draw against France to guarantee qualification of the group and a quarter final at Wembleley, which is key. And that will be against the runners up from a group that features West Germany, Argentina and Spain and France have to win this game to qualify so they're going to be a lot more open. So suddenly rather than having Europeu guys sitting deep in the opening game, you've got a team that are coming out to play. So it's going to be a lot of easy things and France aren't the powerhouse that obviously they will be. in the late nineties and sort of subsequently in this century. So England expected to win. they do win two now two Roger Hunt goals. It's a fairly comfort feels like all the yanks of that youil guy game is has kind of been dissipated in Bobby's Mexico goal and this feels like okay, we're now we're now getting somewhere Yeah, and so we should say as well that Terry Payne played on the wing in the second group game in a game against Mexico and in Callahgham plays on the wing in the game against France. still playing still persistent with wingers at this point. Yes, and England play a different winger in each of the three games, but they do play a winger. and Sometimes it's Ball he sits out, sometimes it's Peters he sits out. But it's still basically this asymmetrical four hundred thirty three, which people think is the orthodoxy I' been in England next year should win this game much more easy. Bobby Chll has a gogled out off side it's not offs side The first girl comes up to Jackson's headed against the post. it's a pretty straightforward win. It's too nill, but it's too nill Tunil like Liverpool in the championship winning season on a slot where they're completely controlling the game at twoil And you think he is controll he is hiding grandmaster plan for the latter stages. And the fact that there's different wingings every time does suggest that he's got something out of his sleeve. It's not like he's got a settled side and he knows who the winger is Well I think what he's doing is he's keeping Ball and Peters He fres he's not tying one of them out, he's keeping them both in games Like the old wing back with fullbacks now you tend to try and wrest them because you're asking so much of them and he knows he's going to have to ask a lot of running from Bald and Peters exxactly good So England is in a really good place here, but there's two shadows So the first one is the behavior in Nobby Styles. Hey As It just a bad twenty minutes in the second half. I'm laughing, it's not good. I shouldn't laugh. It's not funny But he punches Robert abat He thrusts an arm into Bernard Busky and he breaks Jackie Simon's leg with a really horrible wild late foul U know, he only gets you know a booking for those three offensences and to be honest Any of them could have been a sending off And these days you'd be out at the tournament probably because the television coverage robably well, certainly a' be two, three game pan, I'd imagine Yeah, so the VFA embarrassed by this. I mean the French understandably be upsetting in the foul on Seem more is disgraceful and the FA say to sayay to Ramsay. Yeah don' not do you have to pick styles, maybe maybe the That'd be nice you after he's played like that maybe you just leave him out Rams it Okay, then I resign. I'm picking styles so I go An eff okay But I mean, yeah, again, that shows Ramseay' stubpornness is strength of will the single mindedness. It also shows how the FA more concerned about the perception of the team than winning games that they they're focusing more on the ambassadorial role, I think. I don't completely blame them for that because that is part of your olders of Association. I mean, primarily you want to win games, but if someone behaving that badly kind of thing actually. but I do also think the balance has to be the manager has to be empowered to manage and you know he has to take the decisions that he thinks are best for the team and he has to be focused on winning the game. So you cannot as a manager be worrying about unless something egregious happens that is out outside the law off the pitch, then I think things get different. But on the pitch, if someone iss qualified to play, you don't start taking decisions Like or I might drop him because he was being a bit bad during a game Yeah, we I can't Maybe there are examples. I can't think of any example of a manager or a football association voluntarily leaving out one of their key players because of a an on field defence I mean, we Obviously the famous John Terry example of being found guilty for racism. By an FA inquiry precipitates Fabiopello's department from the job because he thinks, well, you Similarly, like Ramsey, different circumstances obviously Well, you don't tell me who to pick. I'll decide who to pick Yeah, I mean, I justust I't think they There are comparable examples for no on field. I mean But the FA was very clear the FA chairman at the time, David Bernston was very clear that you cannot I think it was an issue over whether he was captain rather than he was Right. Yeah ye ye that you cannot be England capaptain do that. after his ban, he was going to be available to be picked. It's just that he couldn't be captain and Fabier thought that was Gross intervention into his domain, I suppose. So the FA the Feral associations do have to think more ambassadorally. I mean, there is more at stake than just the result I think it's probably right in this circumstance for the manager to push back. But it is, you know, I mean, as you say, Stalsa's behavior is very bad. and reallyally indefensible Yeah yeah, it is, but it actually doesn't attract as much attention as the other shadow which is the fact that Jimmy Greeves has received a gash on his shin that requires three stitches And that's going to keep him out for the quarter final. So Heurst comes in, obviously for that quarterfinal, never loses his place Um Yeah Greves would have been available for the semifals. So we'll come to that that selection decision when we get get to the semi But you sort of feel that the injury does Ramseay a favor because this Grieavves question has been dragging on that I think people are starting to doubt. Yeah know, he is a brilliant forward. He is our best technically our best player He is this really elegant and graceful goal scorer And you know, more besides I think people outside London wonder whether London journalists overrate. mean this is I mean, you hear this said today. It's obviously way more significant in those days where you don't have mass TV coverage She' very reliant on the local journists to give her an accurate assessment of the player U and we see today that players who journalist who watch a player week in week out tend to be more sympathetic to them than than those who see them only occasionally Okay, do you genuinely think that it does do him a favour or would he not have continued with Greves in the next match had it been fit? I mean, it seems weird saying this. We all know that Jeff Hurst is going to be a hero of the nineteen sixty six World Cup, but it is a massive slideing doors moment because Would he actually got his chance? I'm not sure you would. I think the fact that Ramsey plays in In that gameing Calavita He plays him in Soorry in Hsov I think the fact that Ramsey plays in that game in hoods off the fact he plays Greed in the three group games, I think He thinks Greeves is the right man. I mean Greves is a better finisher than I mean, we've never watched him, but everybody says Greeves obviously was a better finisher than Heurst He got forty three goals and fifty one internationals. and that's a great record. that's before the World Cup So I think it's been apparent Re for those six months, seven months that Greavves is going to be a fault line. There is going to be a decision has to be made. So After that partina win in Spain in the December of ' sixty five, you're the game when Peter Lvenzo coins this term wing that wonders he describes the victory that night and this grieves Vovia didn't play. He says, it's a thrilling victory supreme in his tactical brilliance and mastery And yet the very next day He's arguing the headline is England must recall luxury goal Ace as soon as he's fit again And so yeah, he hasn't been dropped. He just hasn't played because he because he's not fit Others so are less convinced and Peter Lorenzo, of course, was a London based journalist so maybe was more inclined to be sympathic to Greves than others So Jeffrey Green Now Jeffy Green was, you know, at the time a great Doyenne of English football writers writing in the Times And so after the game in Poland, so the one they will win just before the World Cup Wh Griefers play Green rights Greavves continues to follow his own infuriating path And I think he You can see him really struggling to reconcile What he's seen, what he knows to be true with the received wisdom of English football And he doesn't he's not quite confident enough to go against that received wisdom But the doubt is there The person who that's really interesting this is Bobby Chartlon. and Bobb Chartl is somebody who absolutely believes football is about individuals. He he thought Johnny Haye should have been in the team in sixty three and sixty four you know, he thinks you just put your best plers in there and then you work it out. He's not a systems man But even he's having doubts about Greeves If Geves wasn't scoring, this is a result of obious, he iss obviously written starting later. but if Greeves wasn't scoring, his contribution tended to be not much more than the ornamental. And so Dave Bowler,'s Really, really good phiography of our phmacy He says for him question Ramsey is there was a sort of underwhelming win over Denmark where hearst comes in for Greavves. He is after that game. so the question is It's not whether Greavves should be partnered by Hunt or Hest, but whether it should be Hunt withith Hurst or with Greeves. And I think Nobody's really appreciated that. It's a choice between Grees and Hearst 's not between Hest and Hunter Partner Greavves The male afterfter the draw against Uuguay, the opening game of that W Cup. They're worried enough by Grees to say, is it worth bringing Hurst to replace Hunt? So they're still thinking along those lines. The idea of dropping Greaves is not there And you know, thats that's kind of a bizarre thing to say because at that point Roger Hunts only played fourteen times forland and he scored twelve goals So he feels a much, much more obvious selection than Greves, but the myth of Greves or legend of Greves is so great people can't conser Yeah you do see this in teams, don't you where you just go this guy in national teams, particularly this guy is so extraordinary can't get rid of. I think Liverpool had a bit of that with Mo Sala this season and eventually just decided well we're going to have to drop him. But I think agree with you Bobby' Chel comments are I mean, that's really damning what he says. It'ss it's not Yeah it's not very he's not putting the boot in, but he is in an understated way and That just tells you that this is a play doesn't contribute eleven And in modern football in betically you can argue Okay, Bolatement comeing up. But I mean this is one of the first modern football teams where where teamwk in the system is going to be really, really important You know, maybe you can't have the luxury player anymore Yeah, I'm think I think that is true. and I think that's something that U Journals in particular at the time are struggling to deal with because we obviously we loveost our names. We love lxur That's true today. We still want Jack Greelish in the England team a few years ago and actually he did rather well on occasions. But there was a period of his game where he didn't track back at all, but Greish is a great figure and a great charismatic figure and you want to write about him Well, I think actually the closest comparison, obviously they're different types of player But if you remember before Euro ninety six, Alan Ca when he was thirteen, England games about scoring And nobody's actually saying Hmm shouldhould it be showing him in Less Ferdinand? Ith should be showing him in Anty Co Everything that should be shared is just come on Alan, score some goals, which you thankfully all he does he is such a team player that you just want the goal scoring boot again. I mean, maybe Kane in Europe twenty twenty four one it is obviously was injured and it was very hard to drop Harry Kane because you know he's your best finisher, but it's clear he wasn't able to do the things that centre forward needed to do. And I think South Gate was reasonably brave even pull him off at the times when he did, but actually maybe his argument don't start him in the final Yeah or take him off earlier. But Yes, s. Well let's see in part three What happens when Jeff Heurst does come in for Jimmy Greaves? Does it work? Can England get past a rugged Argentina findind out next week. unless, unless You're a patient subscriber where you can binge all four episodes in this series straight away Anybody can sign up to the Patreon. It's not just about getting instant access. It's not just about ad free listening. You get welcome Wednesays You get nostalgic rambles through old shoots, you get bonus episodes and lots, lots more D don't know if you're remember, Bob, I know I am, and I think it's great value. I am a member. It is great value. Do sign up and yes, do get instant access to this fascinating nineteen sixty six story. If you can't wait, sign up straight away now. 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