Reflecting on Southampton and Future Goals

players go to the board and say Will's gotday. I almost felt like a foreigner Yeah walking into that environment. Even that it makes no sense. Yeah it happened. It's like this really heavy And I remember us all looking at each other and going Cn't watch it. Yeah, I get it. h it D didn't want to watch it? D't want to talk about it? Just leave me alone. It's really hard on us to such h. It's like's hm somebody you just don't get the time. I made mistakes. I'll hold my hand up every day do that Without further ado, welcome to the oververlap breakdown. It's a pleasure to have you on. One of the most, as we've just spoken about, one of the most unique journeys I've ever seen in sort of football, modern football At one point, you were the youngest manager in Europe top five divisions at thirty years old. And we are now going to speak about your career from back to front. And yeah, it's absolutely amazing what you've done I would like to touch on where we did Steve McLaren a couple weeks ago And I'd love to start it in a similar way. And I think I said something about Steve McLaren And it's even more apparent to you consider you got it so early If I could ask you why coaching? because it was the closest thing to be a footballer Hm and it allowed me to work within professional game footb But I'll be honest, the first kind of ambition wasn't to be a coach or a manager or whatever U, All through my kind of youth up until I was about sixteen, seventeen, I was like I'm going to be a profion footballoy one day, I'll make a profional football. Um And then you know, when you're about sixteen, seventeen, kind of reality kicks in, you know maybe that's going be tricky U And when I was in my last year of school in Belgium had that uncomfortable conversation of you know, what's next? what am I going to do My mum was kind of very a scholar and discipline it was like,, you know, you need to find yourself a proper job and go down that university course somewhver. And I was like It can't be asked for me. U and I actually started physiotherapy Um But I gave off after three months because I just never went to lessons it just wasn't didn't idn't bother me that much. Yeah U I sat down my dad and it was like Yeah. Surely somewhere someone somewhere must teach you know football there must be a football course. whatever you know, kind of end of the spectrum you go to, there must be something there And Google is all our friends and it helped me to find Mc college. Yeah And myescod just kind of opened my eyes up to what was possible you know to do within the world of football And videoideo analysis was a part of that. kind of seen Not wholeo in the market, but Belgium wasn't kind of developed in the same way the English football was at that stage. It it was like, o, I want to take this, go back to Belgium I'll knock on any cub's door. Yeah and they'll let me in. Yeah I got that wrong because obviously it wasn't that easy. Um And just thought, you know, video analysis is kind of the way in is the kind of door that will open at some point. Luckily it did and kind of went from there and then It's It's that pathway from going from video analyst to an assistant coach. Yeah. to a coach. that was made easy by the people that I was working with because you know, I had a kind of knowledge of football like like everyone does. and but the countries that I worked with really kind of S me up I'd take a Rndo, I take a passing drill And you know, slowly but sureortly I was on the pitch kind of speaking the same language, speaking the same You know, using the same terms in a footballing way Um, And once I got out on the pitch and you know, was doing these kind of things, I was like, Yeah actually this is what I want to do. This is this is where I I go I coach kids When I was kind of fifteen, sixteen I enjoyed it, but completely different So And then you know, that coaching element and side to it was just like Yeah actually that's what that's what I really want to do. Yeah for there? The doctor did that helpt you like being so young Beuse I think if you're younger, especially when you go from So that's the exact thing that we were speak about before, I was in video analysis, but I couldn't do the jump. on the grasss and especially like with being young and like talking to players and stuff I could never get that that balance. And I don't know like That was still so hard to me at such a young age. What do you think you are most You'remost benefited off of being a little bit younger one hundred percent, yeah. hundred percent because I was I was I was kind of relatable to the bers. I could I could You know, I was living in the same world that they were living in. I was, you know, back at that stage. I was twenty one, twenty two. So that was kind of all of their ages. so I knew You know, socially what they were up to, what kind of music they were listening to, what You know, what was going on in their world? And to be honest, I was just a video analyst so I was kind of of them Yeah yeah in and about them anyway. Yeah. And yeah, no, it definitely helps. Yeahah, then obviously you to do went on to do pretty amazing stuff at Belgium. You know, you become youngest Belgiian ach at twenty four, I believe, which is absolutely insane. Obviously in twenty fourteen and in twenty fifteen The club Clinch promotion to the Belgian F first Division Yeah, and then obviously you went standard L Asge. There's a lot there's a lot of jobs here in Belgium. How would you describe you talking there before about the Belgium sort of ecosystem in football. What was was that much different? English So you're at Preston. It a h pretty different. Completely a sport, ob say C on barlet pically It's the cultural element of it Yeah, Belgian culture is completely different to English culture and I've learned that over the past six months because I had a cultural shot when I came to college Preston is li Everyone thinks I'm English, but I was actually I was born in Belgium is in Blls when went school in French play most of my life playing football in Dutch. So I wasn't, you know, I didn't have I didn't understand Bana. I didn't get the English U yeah sort of basic culture. Obviously my parents are English and I've got some family here, but it's not it's not the same thing. And The kind of cultural differences that you see in everyday life, you also see in a football club And Belgium is unique. It's such a small country that it's unique the way the competition works is also ye incredibly unique. Unique and probably a bit ridiculous. But it was it was good because it was something that was I was comfortable in. know I obviously knew the languages, knew the people, knew You know, what it took to kind of work But I also got incredibly lucky But I should never ever have been a head coach of twenty four. 's absolutely insane. No, it's mad, yeah. Look, I'm twenty four now And I say to a producer over there I was like I could not imagine that at my age now. But and it's, you know, it it was a second division club in Belgium T You know, albeit I' got a few financial difficulties, but Sat next to me was Nicki V Kirkervan, who's like played Over fifty games of Belgium. Patrick Nice has played over like five hundred games in Belgium's first division. And I'm sat there thinking You know, why is the only turn to me? what's this am I gonna do? You know? Do you get a bit of imposter syndrome? Oh ye, J what I mean like what am I doing? Oh Yeah U A You know, I was kind of dead honest about it with the players. you know, I sat down and was like, right I've been asked to do this You don't have to agree with it All I want to do is win a few games but I need you to win a few games because For the moment, we're pretty rubbish over the bottom of the leag We're pretty rubbish You know, through no one's fault it's just a kind of You know, circumstances are what they are, but we need to get out of it and we need to win a few games. And I don't know why. the players just kind of bought into it and we went on a I drew my first game I didn't sle the night before because I was petrified that we were going to get battered like you know, ten m and I'd be the last m stock of. Yeah U We do the first game I in one one lost the second goame Three, two And then after that, those first two games, we went on a We won seven on the trot and then didn't lose for and on the street, but I you know, I sit here now talking about it and I don't I'm not braing about it, but it's like Even now it makes no sense. That it happened. Yeah because I was doing such like simple basic things with these players And You know, got lucky A few of the games, you know, we were on a knife edge and The ball hits the post and goes in and Damous a Ment goals, etcetera, etcetera. That's just the way football works. and I've now been on the other end of scale where You try everything and nothing's working. and you hit the post, you hit the other post, you hit the crossbar, your striker slips, he puts it wide and you kind of think I was gonna I was gonna to talk to you, so I was speaking I was speaking to a lot of people And it always feels like when your teams always have a mad variance in terms of the expected points or chances you're creating. and the actual points. And I really want this is probably planned for later. but given what you just said there, I think n Does are you always aware of that? you know, when you're in there and you go, it's got the balance has got to come soon show to me Does it that tick you off a little bit Oh it wind it windres me up prorofper windres me up, but it windres me up in a way that can't actually control it. L do you can do so much work and you can prepare, you know so many things But in last, for example, last season We were top three for you know, actually created top three for a number of chances created a number of, you know entries in the opposition box. So all the stat's kind of all adding up to me kind of thinking Yeah, it'll be right. It will work at some point it's going to you know, it'll work And it did eventually Um Because at Christmas, I think we were We were fourth or fifth in the league, we were kind of starting to grow into the team that I wanted it to be. Um And L yeah is difficult competition. Like every other week you play against some massive club whether that be you know, Mar, Pi, Monaco. Um And yeah, I think I think Thet the start of this season is Southampton know people look at it now and look back on it and say, oh, well, willill, you know, you were twenty first in the league and You weren't getting a tune out of the team and this and that. And I was like, I know like I know what it look yeah U But there was so much that we were trying to change and that needed changing as well that we needed that that that little bit of luck that you know, that for that ball to roll in and not hit the post and go wide or for the keeper to putull off an absolute you know well be U I think The game way it struck me the most was home to Swanseie I think we are next E by over three Oh yeah. I think I remember this game And we drew Nil Nil. Yeah. I was going Yeahah. And it was like Yeah. We hit the post, hit the other post. slliipped missed from three yards out and I was like, It's almost like it's catching up with you when you said you were lucky at Belgium. No it's going the other way against you. it's like And it was the most frustrating time of my career, obviously. Yeah. becausecause, you know, ultimately I have many games later. you are fired And you kind of think, but people always come up to us and say, Ohh but will, don't worry, you know, you should have been fld in the table But you went. And that's what I was. Yeah. I was twenty first and And that's what that's what football is and that's what football does you and it can be ridiculously cruel But on the other hand there can be making ubue look out. Yeahah. Yeahah. I think yeah, I wanted to sort of rewind and definitely go back to when you first went to Lun and you took over as caretaker manager and That was one of the most Even from like the outside looking when I showed you that video, obviously two draws against PSG went unbeatating in I think the first seventeen games and you had the longest unbeaten running league on that season and you took over Im So What was what was that like? Obviously there was there was a lot more noise than it. sp the pressure in Leeun and You finished really well that season The pressure in theagame when you go in there and I remember looking at some of the teams, the managers, the players that were knocking about there Was that almost like, well, this is How did you take that jump, that jump to the next You're in Europe sa five leagues base do you know what I mean? on the I think the main advantage I had was that I'd been in Liga for more or less a year. assistants, so I knew the teams, I knew Our own squad, I kind of understood the club now and where it was going. Um And it was a similar situation to what I'd known in Belgium where It was the year when Lian went from twenty teams to eighteen teams So they were going to be or four relegated teams there was a lot of pressure on teams at the bottom to kind of get it right and I just remember the start of the season being tricky because we weren't getting the results that we needed And you know, besides that Oscar Garcia, who was the head coach had got His daughter was basically dying. I mean, it's as sad as that is to say, it was horrible. So he wasn't there very often So I was really doing A lot. okay. Yeah Um And then the club, you know, decided to suck him They're wrongly are not you not judge on that. And they turned to me and said where we've got F games left before the World Cup, which was in Qatar that year U There's no plan, there's no pressure. there's no You know, we don't know where we're going with it yet because we weren't expecting to sack Oscar U just try and pick as many points up as you can And we'll see what happens I might Okay. I'll give it a go. Cool. I'll give give it a go. O first game is a way to Lon, I think. Yeah. yeah terrible game. bad just we draw, we get a draw out of it But in those five games I think we've won Three and J two sort didn't lose. Yeah. And we kind of just managed to create an environment where People actually wanted to be and wanted to come to the club and wanted to train and wanted to you know, pick up points for themselves, but also for the team and kind of get out of the Not mess, but sticky situation that we were in. U And you know, the Wld Cup comes players go to the board and say Will's got to stay So Oh really. fast brillant That that's what kind of gave me the confidence to kind of take it. take it on the full time and really ever go at it So the board come down to me and say, you know We're delighted when I'm beatating in five, just keep going And I'm not fine, great. I' I don't got a pro license though I got my A license of the UFA because that's all you can that's the highest kind of the bones you can get But to get on the pro lessons course, you've kind of You've got to shift a few mains before you get there. I was speaking to you about this, yeah. And it's difficult to get on it. reffused by the French Federation on their course. so I'd go back to Belgium and do that Um But yeah, every week you're playing against PS at that timewn had got messy Nar and Bae to midfield, you know, Serjo Rammos playing And you kind of playing against position teams every other week bsutely loved it. It was just dream. Yeah, it literally, it was like being, you know, in a dreamland and people kind of think Oh know, you absolutely love the press and the media and the attention that you got. No, I wasn't you love doing the job I wasn't bothered about the rest and it's this kind of perception from the outside world that you kind of think Yeah Half that story is not true No, I know, I know. I was going to askst obisy about it all. I always found M than more than the video game stuff, I always found the fine the best thing about your story I always go like, I can't imagine you're in that board and the players have got up and got need to get him in And you've gone ye I' G to get fin there Like how does that even Do they just go Yeah We're willing to take that risk to be fair to Reames and You know, I'll forever be grateful for that opportunity. I just said It's fine. there's loucker It's as if we've taken on another player in January Yeah. We'll pay it. you know, just we're not we can't give you more salary, obviously because we're paying all of this U But it doesn't matter. you know, we want the football Cub to survive in the year. We want you to you know keep going Okay Not a problem U so until the end of that first season when I took over Yeah, there must have been about twenty Five or twenty six games left. Yeah. They just paid it Um You know everyone'sking about the confidence. Oh yeah, yeah yeah, definitely. And Yeah everyone kept reminding me of it and it was like, Yeahah I know I'm just trying to do my best. not losing. but well, yeah, but was I wasn't bragging about it. It was just, you know, I'm just I just try try my best. Yeah Um and luckily yeah, it works out Be you've done it so young, Have you actually had time to build a philosophy of what you want to do? Or is it simple? you just get given a group of players and you go, what are these good at that I can mold them into? Do know what I mean? It's a mix of both life throughout this kind of Seven to eight years, I was analyst assistant coach You know, I've work with a lot of coaches or was lucky enough to work with a lot of coaches. scene. almost polar opposites in terms of philosophy and styles So I've got a You know a feeling for what I liked and what I enjoyed seeing because I always I always do that as as a supporter What would a supporter want to see? What does he want his team to do? What do he want his You know, what would I like if I went to the stadium as just a fan Um, so I kind of you know, got a clear More or less a clear picture of what. I want to do but also You don't just walk into a team and say, right, we're doing this, this and this. If you don't do this, then you're out. It doesn't work. Yeah Um, So I You know, you kind of module stuff and make it work with the players that you've got U, And I think the best example of that is Again last year in last where I'm following a coach that's been there for seven years that's got a team up from me do that's by Champions League that's done an unbelievable job, but that's built a squad in a three hundred for three. Yeah And three forty three isn't a system that I particularly like, and it's not what I'd go to if I really had the choice. But I wasn't going to go into a massive club like L and just say right Forget all of that for two. We're doing this ins now. use I've obious got it here Oscar Garcia. He's managing eight different countries, work its under Johan Kreiff. So his s of philosophy must have been so different fromious the stuff you picked up in Belgium Oh totally totally different. But also I had this Before knowing him and working with him, I had this kind of fake or false impression that it would be a four hundred and thir three It would be, you know, very possession based kind of football wasn't at all. No endnded up playaying a five three two. U pretty low block and working on possession football but in a completely different way than what I'd imagined But again, you know, it was just an extra kind of piece of information I had and I could fall back on the times. When you say it's a completely different imagination of the possession football What do you mean is it like they're going long and then they're recouping and then they're playing or do you mean there's different The set upp first? Yeah because I'd never have imagined you know a Spanish C is to play a three fif two. Yeah and it wasn't a three five two was a five, three two. That sort of weight backs so much lower Yeah. proroper defenders Yeah U And it was, you know, it was how he broke it down. It was, okay from Keper We have Option one, two and three first a phase of build up, we've got option one, two and three middle section of the pitch patterns are one, two and three Okay, final third, same thing. So we've always got three options or three different kind of creative animations that happened But we'd train it, for example, the day before the game and training the day before the game would last an hour and forty five minutes, which is whichich I've was unheard of to me. Yeah because I'd always been said,, don't for the training, you make it short sharp and go to the point And this was this was like a This was like I said a proper session. and we go from the keeper option one, two, three. And if anyone messed the pass up or if anyone didn't make the run that he needed to make We'll start again So it was like wow That seems proper like Italian coded to me that though. in like a every textbook Yeah exactly what you do And we looked at it on the video so that the players could kind of see it He'd explained on tactic boards do it on the pitch. And we'd kind of break it down like that U But fascinating because I've never seen it done. I you know, it was something completely new to me. and I was like, okay Yeah. and it was just, you know, another thing that I kind of added to my. you were saying before? You always think of what would you want to watch as a fan? What would you want to watch as a fan? If your team's playing, what are the things And forward thinking team and I know everyone says, well I want my team to be really offensive. I don't want to watch. a team that keeps possession to keep possession like And I know this is may be controversial, but As brilliant as Barcelona were in that period of kind of ultimate tiki tacker where they beat everyone. It was great because they'd got technically such gifted players that it was like,, that's what you got to do. Yeah. I didn't enjoy it I mean, you can see watching it. and you've seen what it looks like when it's not got them players in it. No, exactly. And it's a lot of terrible work it's terrible. Yeah. And everyone tried to kind of do it and it was like Both players can't do it. Yeah And now I want I want, you know, runs. I want over, you know, how are we going to get the ball from keeper basically into the opposition goal. as quickly as possible clean as possible. I don't want a lumpit because I don't want to become like ru one football play off second balls So how are we going to overload space to give us the opportunity to play forward and what run is going to allow us to either open space or play forward So it's all about vertical football It's all about you know, what players can we find in what positions and how we overloaded the opposition to be able to find that free player. to then play in behind and make that run all You know, situation happened And also, you know, if we've lost the ball This is going to sound really basic charge. N just charge, lying, react Does that mean your idea of football? I've always said this for a lot long for a long time I prefer A Manchester United Fund I prefer. I'm sorry about. I prefer the yoggen clop style when it says it's best and the Pcadi or the style when it says it's best. Yeah Be do you agree with that? hundred percent. Be I think as a fan, if I'm in the stands I'm I'm cheering on every vertical pass, every deep run, every second ball win. I'm not chearing, I'm not cheering pass that goes backwards to the keper to reset. I not sharing that So for me, I always love, but it doesn't get you excited either. No, you don't kind of go somethingomet's going to happen. And don't get me wrong, posossession football likes. You were saying it before. There is a need for it, obviously sir, and it to be done cleanly and stuff like that I don't like the idea, especially more modern times where it's become Yeah, likeike you said, it's more of a defensive tactic than it is an attacking tactic. now it's more to If we've got the ball up the other end and we're on the edge of the box, they can't score. That's more for me what a lot of teams are thinking now with their possession And I think that's obviously somehow maybe Guardiola thinks about it like that U But yeah, I always appreciated like the more direct Wout it without saying like or charge it you know what I mean? without putting like it really old school connotations towards it. Yeah, I had a great conversation with the That's Adam Lana. Yeah he was assistant in Southampton And we were just talking about the different styles that he'd been through, you know had Deserby at Brighton I spoke a lot about cloth at Liverpool just because it was something that I identify myself to it. I really thought looks like a team that I want to You know, I'd want to support. I'd want to be part of U And he said it was the best time of his life And he was scared when Clock came in because he He kind of a very technical player available between the lines, wasn't a physically kind of the Bgest Yeah Yeah But he said I just As soon as he came in, I made this click in my head and it was like This is the way that we have to play How much of a West Aphant are you? Because I know you are a West Aphon, but you' a proper West Athon Yeah. The thing the thing I learned working in football, you're not really a fan of anyone anymore. Yeah. L I love West Am because I grew up watching West Am and I went to You know, up in park with my dad and my brothers and it was like part of what we did and it was special because obviously we lived in Belgium. So we knew that if we were going to London, it was like, ' we're going to watch West A. Yeah. Big day. Yeah. And it was, you know, back in the day we were watching Pana de Canyo. Frederick Kanutee, Joe Cole last stages of Lampard at Westerham, so it was like They were massive, surreal. and to me, it was like L wasen Joe C must p of the Canyyon I was going to say like what type of football do you think that club is Young someone's got like a bit of a DNA Yeah. because if I assS manan United it's always thown about United DNA and it's become like almost a laughing stock of a phrase. But I do think in my head that there is A lot of things I could put towards it quite simply. Yeah, I think I think it saddens me a lot with West Aam is that The club has kind of lost. It's sold almost in DNA of what West A used to be because of the stadium because of You know, the number of managers that we've had over the years and the number of changes that have constantly gone on. But I think, you know, West Am and everyone says, You've got to play the Westn wayay U But then Sam Aaldas comes into the club when we're in the champ And I think a reporter one of the questions in the first press conference is, are you going to play the West An Way? And he looks at it down the camera and says, well what's the West An wayay? Getting relegated Let's st point a very good point. And, you know, he says The West Aamway has gott to be just winning games You got to back up Yeah. beat Blackpool and playd final and you know, Ricardo Vaste is called a night if minute winner and you' kind of thinking, This is West A.'s what. And you know, it was completely different, but It was still S something that you could identify yourself to as a supporter Um Tod, am I a massive West Am fan I'll always, you know, have that play bus to West A inside me, but You're so busy with You know, your job and other teams that it's like Yeah, you can't you can't really be a fan anymore. because I've always had this I've had so many arguments because I think people always say to me, I always go like People have said to me, United is theNA is just winning And it's like, doesn't matter how we won Under Ferg we played multiple different things, we just want And people go, that is your DNA. And I go, yeah, that is true, but I think in some respects The fans are more likely to get behind something if it's just edge a little bit closer to what they're used to And I think that's why United have obviously struggled some we're trying to build something. Yeah. Well many of themm not talk about United blve. So yeah going back to Franon doing that, obviously So game againainst PSJ on been in both. Sight we had to adapt what we were doing because you can't You know, you can't go away to put the prs and say, I'm going to press a life out of them and do this We did want to press and we did press and we did it really well Um, but it's it's just by It was it's almost by giving the players enough belief that playywll. Yeah as much as possible and we're an h a go. Yeah U We have to be careful of this, this, this and this. I think we all know that U And there's that kind of tactical and technical level that you have to get right You need to keep it pretty accessible and basic for the players. So in my head I've got, you know a million lines and shapes and whatever going on, but it's like how am I best going to translate that to the player so that he understands exactly what you need to do and when So we got that sorted And then it's the other side of it. is's like We've got to believe that we can actually do this. Yeah because I don't want to go A way to PS she and you know, probably like a bunch of you know, sheep and just kind of accept whatever's going to happen to us Yeah, we've got good plass too PSC was just a football team. and like yeah, they've got you know, messy in Nama and whatever playing up to it, but they are just football team. Um And we also knew that you know once we've skipped that first line of press basasically a ten against seven because those three aren't going to defend. Yeah. So it was like, you know, step by step kind of getting the players into a space where they were like, Ty war Yeah, we can do this actually and it is possible. Was that wasas that one of the plans? Was that one of the plans when you were thinking against PSJ If we just bypass that for free, we've actually G actually just run directly at the goal. The fullbats will go in untracked Yeah, I mean, obviously you've got seven other players at are like well last level. Yeah. But we did know that in So the second phase of our build up or possession play, we would always have a spare man or an extra man. So it's like, okay, we've got to be technically Imatulate But if we find these spaces, we are going to hurt them U And the worst thing is, you know, you prepare all these things, we can see to really goal, but unlucky goal almost. And we equalizing one of their mistakes So not third minute or fourth minute. they play long which was unheard of because that was Yeah They don't play long We lose the first challenge, pick up the second ball. U and our initial reaction is we pick up a second ball our automatic reaction is playay forward because you need to use the disorganization of the opposition team to play forward So Camarry Dunber aysable through center arms M' three on goal And then Te just kind of stopped Yeah, it was like nice. And you could see him running through and I'm like Oh I might go I think you it a million times kind of thing. Unbelievable. But again, you know, and from that, you build more belief and more confidence because Well we can't actually do it. and we have done it And we're going to do it again? Yeah I saw it's so interesting like I just can't imagine like standing there and just like having to go up against them and thenre not only to went up against them and draw but drawing and being competitive in mental actually mental Yeah. There was a dressing roomar right after Um, was had you ever got to a point then where it was like,, no, we can Yeah we should be doing stuff up. Yeah. Yeah. And it was there was, you know, there was a sense of prriide about what we'd done, but it was also like Well, this is what we do now and this is the direction that we want to go in. so There was also a calm understanding of What next? Yeah, which was to me really positive because I knew that the team was kind of in a phase where They knew where we were going. Yeah. And I guess a seventeen game on Beaten run really helps that. And How good was that how good was that grouf players to it? Be I remember watching, I think Amazon did a video with you and you did like a mictp training sion and you had a really good sort of bouncing off the lads each other cing jokes is Was that just almost like a bit of a surreal feeling at that point where it was just like We're in such a good position. I can imagine relegation or the chanceces of even being anywhere near that. I've been swept aside quite earlier Yeah. So you were almost going in there and now you've got the element of bit freedom but weight off the chest. Yes, so by the B by the time we got to the Well cut break We kind of knew it with do all right U We had a really positive break So we gave two weeks off. And then built up, we went away to Spain for like a warm weather in December. Um, and just kind of, you know, built it up And I knew that by the time we started the competition again, it was like Yeah, we're on it, we're at it. we're you know, in a place that we want to be at But also I never I never really thought about it The relegation are any of it, any of it. You never really and I know this, you know, people will say, o of course you do. You don't really think about the unbeaten games because it's just the next game and then the next game And then it's when it ended. We got beat by Marseille at home. Yeah I think Sanche's got to hatch it he scored two at least And after that game, you know I sat down, I was guided because I hate losing. I'm really not really good at losing. And I sat down after that. and you know, My dad was at the game and he walked in the dressing room and said, I don't really want to talk about it. Yeah And he goes off home back to Bels and says just just Think about what you've done What's that It doesn't really matter that dad weve lost. He said just I'll give a day off the next day I to get two days off because we were only plan like a week later or seven days later And in those two days you kind of sit back and think Aually that was unreal. Yeah, but I want to do it again You know, I want to make it happen again Um and It is unbelievable when you look at it But when you're in it, you just know, you're just giing training sessions and You I was incredibly demanding with players because we kind of knew that you know our level of performance had to stay H, so it wass like we kind of a laugh and we kind of a joke We always know where we're going and what we're doing Well at the Mit up training session, you are pretty harsh with him as well. When you stop the drill, you get all the lads around in the middle of the pitch you are like Yeah. but they also, you know, it's not and people say always just putting on a show, it's like putting on a show. I'm not thinking about putting a show. it's like These players are going to react to this in this way. And again, you know, doing the same thing in another team. it's completely different. So my The language that I used or the way I behaved at class was not the same as I was in Ls and wasn't the same as I was in Southampton because you have to into consideration the players that you've got the people that they actually are Um And yeah, you know, I was incredibly lucky that in the last those two seasons that we had. you know, those players were just Yeah, driven and at it and You know, a lot of them have gone on to do Yeah really, really good things Yeah. So I wanted to just expand on. that time and I think We spoke about like you're going in as a caretaker and it's a little bit more like small messaging key information How do you then build layers onto like philosophy? So if you're say, you've gone to the summer, you're going into to the second season What are the key things that you're thinking about in terms of developing up in the level We want to go one better than last season.. What What are a couple things that you think you need to coach into a team to bridge that sort of gap? I'm gonna sound like a coach that's just been sacked, but Yeah Yeah because I had time. We had a month during the World Cup where We're obviously kind of building on what we've done. but we were also adding layers to what I really wanted the team to do. Yeah. And we had a full month of it was almost preseason But we'd already had, you know, all the experience that I had before. so I knew the group off my heart. I knew, you know what was going to work, what wasn't going to work And we were just kind of, you know, ye adding layers to what we'd already kind of done. But it takes time. Yeah yeah and, you know The advantage that I had was that the group of players was Re well balanced. so you know, credit to board for that We've got the right number of players, we've got the right quality in the right positions And It was a really kind of calm environment. There was no panic of what had gone on, what hasn't gone on It was just calm. It was like, okay, this is what we're doing. this is where we're going and this is how it's going to work And then same thing in the summer after that. So we finish tenth or eleventh, slap back in the mid of Viga And then you know the conversation is how are we going to improve? and we improved by making Three really, really good transfers. U and recruitment is has become such a It's bigger than touch. almost yeah Yeah. And you know, we brought in three players that I knew were going to make a difference immediately. So we've got Nakamura a Motor Amy And Oaeiv was a striker because we lost Balagon who'd gone to Monaco I'm And we kind of building it kepts adding blocks and blocks and blocks. had another preseason, changed the staff a bit. My younger brother came in And You know, we' kind of got a platform that we knew were going to be good at. and then we just kept adding and adding U But again, the environment was so sort of key to that There was enough time, there was enough calm and structure to allow us to kind of do that in a positive way. Yeah. what do you make of EerK really first? Money first giant. he'd come back from Lone on it being in Denmark somewhere And he came back from Lan and I was the assistant and it was like, He's good. There's something there, but he was fourth choice because we'd got three other strikers that were And got greata I be able to and KCos that was a Dutch player. We got three, you know, kind of established professional players. And Hugo came in. And I think in his first or second preseason friendly school hatick And one of the things that would always stand out of my head he celebrated it L proper celebrated inner friendly though. Yeah. ye And it's just kind of this code that He just shook it off. J get on with it. Yeah. Th he celebrated it. I was like He's got he's got a bit bad. you likeuff' ha there. Yeah U you know, young, highly motivated, highly talented And he was just he was driven to He was going places. Yeah It was different. It was a He was a character Yeah.ot a bit about him. He's got he's got the fashion sense out he's very a. How we turn up in the ridiculous placees. But no it kind of And from that preseason onwards, it was like Okay, mayaybe we don't learn him back out. Maybe we keep him And he ended up he didn't start the season as as a starting player, but he I think after two or three games he was like in the lineup and it was like and he ended up scoring Yeah, ten plus goals. Yeah. I can't remember how many exactly but. And you kind of knew that It was There was something about him. Yeah I always love them sort of players. they're like longed long legged lean, very very nippy can do a little bit of everything in front of a goal. technically you so clean? Yeah. his little He's got one little tummy that he always he still makes. Yeah you kind of think H first touch was unbelievable. Yeah And it's just those little things that you of build up and build up that have made him what isesterday. I're now going to move on to lawns. and Again A massive massive opportunity, a massive club with a very, very big fan base and Yeah, this was one for me when I was watching I was watching at the time. I remember the just a share amount of different shapes that were being used and sort of the amount of adaptting that was coming through. I remember playing four two, three one and then a five bck and a f bck U Was you looking for the balance or was you simply just adapting from game to game? How did you How did you go about going to a club dirt? respectfully it was was obviously to step up So the first The first three months didn't touch it We just said, okay, we'll play a Well player three four three I'd slightly tweak the three four three so it became a three two one two Yeah with a ten because we've got Three profiles of number tenens in our squad that were you know, really good and the kind of wide players that were in the squad were aging. So I thought If we use those as kind of two strikers, a bit like Liverpool used to do with like a false nine dropping in and then two strikers like nrow kind of half inside here. Yeah So we tweaked that a bit, played that for Yeah, three or four months we're doing fine Um, And then Kev Danso came back from heart surgery issues that he'd had. He was supposed to leave to Roma, never left. We'd boughtght in Malangar from Chelsea. so we've got a massive squad of players But also we'd started playing Kudir Kusenov. Yeah that's now at City And he was an absolute machine. I have a question about him because I think he's unbelievableustered But you know, the same thing kind of happens. we walk into the club in in June and they kind of say, oh, we've got, you know we've got Kader he's been here for a season. he's not He's not ully convinced us so we might, you know, there's an option to loan him out. we might just give him a bit of game time because cpo signed him foright peanuts so wanted to have Yeah viewers, I think. Um So there's an option there, is iss going to the Olympics so he'll miss chunk of preseason, just take a look at him That'skay you know We'll see what happens. comes back from the Olympics. I'm not saying this because he's now playing the city or whatever We did a passenger in the first warm up that he was back and good players When they pass the ball or hit the ball, it makes a different sound. Yeah It's like this really heavy like valve hit. Yeah And I remember watching Kadir and this or Kusino off, whatever you want to call him in this in this passenger and thinking And my brothers were there with me. and I remember us all looking at each other and going But not trying to let him know that he's. can't ye I can't do that. And so from that moment on, I was like Yeah, okay, we've got we've got a playerer. Yeah K Kev comes back from injury and the first game we play a four, two, three one or a four three three aw wait of us Um, so back that's my old club But we've got Kevanso and Kudi who We're rapid who were physically, you know, strong who would decent on the ball and it was like okay the balance of the team right now. needs us to shift towards that. and it will annoy her us as well because they have no idea we're going to do it. Yeah Um, we beat her to nail three, nail can't remember So or not I think. Um works well. We play a few games, you know in that four twenty three one We' get to the transfer window in January And the board says to me, you know, well, we've got we've got to sell. Yeah,ve got to sell a lot of players because TV rights haven't come in. We've lost a lot of money with the Champions League etcera etceter. So, you know whatever. ens what happens But we sell Kucon off city, we sell Kev to we sell Frankovski to Gala Tasarai, we sell Brce Samber to So then and we lose like five or six kind of key players and it was like, okay, well We've got a different squadrin. E's changed. So how do we readapt and get this team winning again And I remember we lost four games on the trot after the transfer window U we lost Some games, you know, deservedly, the last game probably undeservedly, but Whatever, you lose the games And it's like, okay we've got to change it again because you've got we've got to win and we go away to Marseill Beat Marseill one nil And then you're kind of back in a flow of Okay, this is going to work. We can we can make this work but we had to I had to adapt because the squad of players was the way it was U I always think my job is to get the best out of the players that we've got Yeah. Uh. And you know, we we made it work, we got And, you know, they kind of said to me when when I walked in Right this is going to be a transition season because we've just lost Hwars who's gone to Nice, the coach Loyis Apando left before. And we let Eddie whyah he left Yeah to Frankfurt to my so before we went to Frankfurt. So there was like a big shift. Yeah and They'd basically said you know, we'd be fine with that. We'll see where we can get to But there was going to be a shift U okay, cool, fine So transition season, we pick up more points than they got the year before. Yeah E the season I was quite happy with You know, it wasn't perfect. I know that Yeah. but circumances, etcera, etcetera. you kind of think We've done all right. And yeah last was Amazing club. The supporters are unbelievable. the stadium's unique greatreat club and it's just you know, things off the pitch happened and that I had no control over whatsoever U And then I'd kind of decided that, you know I needed to I needed to step away from it just to be closer to home and closer to family and my wife. Yeah And so that's what I did and then Three days later, Sadampson we're there and we're offering something that I thought at the time was you know, really good. Yeah Al los Yeah the last chapter was a lot shorter than I'd hoped it would be, but I just felt, you know, on a human of level and perspective, that's what I need to do. Yeah So I did it Yeah I was going to ask you was it was one of the teams was there ever like a team or a player over the years that you've managed in France where it was like He's got my number whether it's a player or So when when you're coaching up against someone, I was gonna to say deserby because I think playing against the Derby teams almost. hurts your head obviously because there's many automatisms in there. It's like how do you even go about setting up against a team like that Never mind a PSG team To be honest, Sako F Fana Oh yeah. when he was at last The year they played Champions League, he was player I got something like that but I remember that season. and I think he went to Saudi Arabia. Yeah. but he was incredible that season. He left the year that We got there. Yeah.. I enjoy you will play Unbelievable. him and O did I help you? Yeah The uniform Marseill Yeah, just like He killed us. He came with merades toars and he absolutely killed us. And it's like You can set up and try and control as much as you want His talent was just by Unbelievable. and obviously, you know, you look I'm missing Kidan in Bai Be the second season he came to her squad a hatrick. It did nothing all game squad a hatrick And then you kind of think back's having off fear Yeah you know. U But it's Still now, I think the guys guys underrated and kind of a lot of people looked at it is That's just France and whatever. it's not as brilliant. I think I'm a massive fan of Fleago and obviously we've got we've got access to ty the running data and the sprint data and it's like up there like one of the most physical leagues's just behind the Premier League in terms of physicality But if you look at sort of the talent hub that it produces year on year 's ridic. I mean, look at Curkey now. But you look at the French national team. I know. even even the teams. evenven the youth teams. start I think we There There was a graphic going about the other day. I think it was like the seven forwards or eight forwards fans could take the Wor Cup and it's like That's ridiculous. It's like wow. some players are missing out. Like I think aatiase now come out. and I think one of the ones we arere going to go back and is' like Mettea potentially, and it's like The guy' just scored, was it twenty gooldals Premi League last season or something? It's ridiculous. But I just think yeah in terms of the talent hub that it produces here and year, it's an incredibly underrated league in it? I can't imagine the amount of young players you've seen and gone Yeah, No they're allowed. And it's it's You know, because Malag Gusto is now at Chelsea He was in Lon a few years ago by Cirkey Docu. You just see all of them go through in his life ye Even K Kzenov. Yeah yeah. It's like yeah When animals It still has this kind of half reputation of being, you know, the farmer's league or whatever. That's just. It's like noah it's actually really good, but trust me it's really good Obviously going from Lagun a championship. Again, another cultural difference potential shift It's massive one again I tell you one thing that I think I struggled with the language And I know this soundsupid because you know, you listen to me now and''m in English. Yeah. and You probably to other people I am English.'t I'm not though Well you can tell when you go into the other languages that you are completely pure in that language you can tell. and it's And the thing is so I was brought up at home in English, we spoke English at home But the English language that we used is very kind of family based and I've never been in a situation where I've had to you know, talk to the press or I've had to talk to a group of young men just because I've never been exposed to that. So it was my first experience I almost felt like a foreigner walking into that environment. Yeah. bring any members of staff with me, I had, you know, Paul Tllop and Aselana who were brilliant when I was there. But I was building a relationship with them builduilding a relationship with the players and I was building a relationship with the board and There is just such a massive difference culturally. in the style of football, the way a team is managed, the way players behave, the way training is set up m that it was, you know, it was kind of in u accelerated Yeah or like a crash course. Yeah f shit. Yeah, yeah. And ultimately I just had to run out of time. Yeah And you know, I'm delighted that they are where they are because the club deserves to go back up and supports you know deserves to go back up and whatever but I'll always have this this kind of partart of regret that it was like I think they're right. and run out of time Whatere's the media you just mentioned there the media in terms of the amount of media duties you have in France, is it literally Not really anything or is it that big in terms of going from championship? It's not not it's not really a question of the amount of it. It's You know, what image I'm going to send out to the outside world. Yeah because over here in England I came across as a nice guy. Yeah and You know, I think I think Johannis even says it in the in the the interview after I got sacked. He said u W was a great guy And I'm like okay, maybe I was Maybe I was too nice, but my personality hasn't changed from when I was in France. and in France I was considered someone that was very honest, very kindind of to the point didn't mess around with anything Yet, you've got two different countries and two almost polar opposite descriptions of ye my person or my personality. And I'm thinking Bizarre. This is weird. Yeah. but how was how was, you know I don't get how that's happened And now you know, with refflexion it's the language that I used my body language, what I said to the press when I said it how the fans have then interpreted it U You know, great, great learning curve for me, great experience as such Yeah, I just bitterly disappointed that it didn't work the way. I wantceed it to worked J and J when it starts going wronger at Southampton and there's some other patches maybe elsewhere. Is that when the Football manager stuff really started to Do you head in a little bit? I I'd done head in years before Yeah. but when I was in France I kept getting the question of a manager Um it's just Don't get me wrong, we've been sponsored by I play of fun. I love it. but it almost felt like the way It was rummed. And you were just like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to coach that Yeah. I'm not It's just part of the story. Yeah It's part of You know, because ultimately you People spoke about it. so you know good publicy back in the day and then I was just kind of described as this geek that' grown up and played on football manager I stopp playing footb Manager when I was like seventeen, eighteen Um That's the story that was sold. that was you know, the story that worked almost in the press Um And, you know, sadly the world that we live in today Social media and people's opinions has become so important Yeah even if they know notothing about you or nothing about you know, my coacachhing philosophy or whatever. U It's the perception to the outside world that kind of takes over everything and you can't do anything about it. You can't change it, you can't try and fight it. So you just kind of have to place it in a corner and except that it's there Is it easy? No, not all? I have to honest. it's one of the worst things to experience. But all you control is the football team that you're doing, what are you coaching? the trainings, you know, your staff, etcetera. So that's what I try to focus on U And there that you know, I can think of a load of reasons that it didn't work out you know, our playing squad was massive and we had to kind of skim through that. and they finally got to a place where You know, they've got a squad that they needed and want There was, you know, stuff that had gotone on the Premier League, stuff that had gotone on the championship the year before that and everyone was was not quite in sync and there were so many different parts of the club that weren't quite in sync yet. Yeah U And I think, you know that was the conversation that we'd had with Johannes because Joannes had kind of just come in with me And it was like okay, this is going to take a bit of time for us to get this right Um and ultimately, you know, they They have got it right. They've had a Yeah, the results that they wanted. And Yeah, that's sl Moves on Yeah, and I just I think It's really. It's really hard obviously to swouch on. It's like Did it did it did you never get like a Was there any sort of any point of Southampton where you were literally like like I could do this, but then the modern the modern way of football is you just don't get the time likeike ever. There were things that I did that were wrong And I made mistakes. I'll hold my hands up every day to that U But I also knew that there was You know, so many things that we had to get through. in order to kind of get it right. And, you know There were a few really good performances in that because we went away to even the Lague Cup, like we played Liverpool the way. We played really well in that game. Yeah Oh yeah, no, I remember watching that game. Yeah yeah And you know, hit the post, hit cross bar, got made a mistake, got unlucky and lost Dreirection away first game two one That was at home. It was at home. Yeah. ye. And you know, Swans at home played well, it just it just When you wanted it to click and when you wanted it to fall into place, it never quite fell into place U sameame again, we play and this was a game where I kind of thought, okay 're to hit, you, we're going to hit the ground running now Sheffield United away Um Tuesday evening or Wednesday evening, midwek We win to w U Ross Stewart is back in the team. He'd been out injured for ages and everyone was likeh he can't playay Rosco, you know he's going to get injured. know, we need to build a bit of consistency and build a bit of, you know momentum going forward. So beat Chef United to one and then go away to Derby on the Saturday or Sunday, Saturday U Joel One one Ross gets injured and it was just Every single time we thought we were building a bit of momentum, there was an injury or there was something that happened. You know, Flynn downs, you know, he was in the starting lineup and he got he's struggled with illnesses in the past. he's fine now and I'm you know delighted for him And Fn, you know, I really wanted Flyinn to be an important player for him. He's the number six in he's the builder. And it was You know It just never quite fell into place Um You know, and I could I could have used should probably have used Jack Stevens in a different way should have used you know a load of players in a different way. But there were so many players that it was kind of Yeah, you just kind of got overloaded by the number of things that we had to do and it takes a bit of time to kind of settle down and put it into place. and like you said, it's just they, you know, made a decision that they had to make. And it's worked out because they're back where they are now. Yeah I wanted I wanted to move on into just some additional questions that I've always wanted to ask, especially a modern manager about just in general when it comes to football. And I think One of the things that's always really interesting to me is the managers who have failed upwards in terms of the philosophy they have I'm not using Vincent Company as the example because he's proven to be an amazing manager. I've always found it really interesting managers who play a certain way. Club play that way with the players, but they project that they can coach that and then they go on to do. g a better thing, a bigger club. When we're talking about you throughout your career and we're talking about you've adapted to certain you know, turbulences where everyone else player sales, injuries, stuff like that Would would you ever do would you ever think about doing that in terms of producing a style of football even without the players there. to show that potentially an elite club could benefit of you showing that I think whatever the team or whatever the group of players I've got I don't think and I know a lot of focus is placed on that these days. The system isn't actually that important. The style and the identity I want I want to press I want to play vertical football. I want to do certain things. But if, you know, I'll go back to Southampton I want to press. But there's nothing to press in the championship becausecause you talk about a goal kick, you talk about, you know What areas of the pitch we're going to try and win the bll back The Championsion Borers goes long You' then got to be ready to win a second ball. That's a whole different ball game to Yeah the pressing game that we want to play I want to play vertical football and you know, attract people with runs The team was used to playing the Russele Mine football we? F get out sllow into midfield, bop it through And I got to the stage it was like, o, we're not playing to midfield in first place. It's extreme and I didn't want that to happen But it was like If I If we're playing to the midfield, this is what has to happen. Yeah. But again, it it just takes time to kind of get out of that routine and whatever U You know, I I say play vertical football. You can't play vertical football because there's no space to run into into. Yeah. U, so it's then you know, falling back on on other things. how do you play against a low block? How do you attack against the low block how Do you adapt to that kind of long ball, second ball, third ball, fourth ball in some situations And I do believe that, you know on the long term. The way that I like to play football does work and will work Nice proven to work. Yeah,. And and that's why the you know, my hunger is now It's so kind of high to get back into something and whatever that is and wherever it is. Yeah and kind of, you know prove the point of you know, I' It didn't work out the way I wanted to work out in Southampton But I'll stand back up and you know try my best to make it work somewhere else Um becausecause still I still believe in myself I still believing in, you know, believe in the football that I want to play I've learned an awful lot about football but also about myself in the last six months I've been off because I'm not the same person that I am. today than I was four years ago when I was in. Um And I just want to, you know keep building and keep moving forward I'm not I'm not proud of Southampton because I wanted it to work But I don't want it to let it define me either I won't get it define me either. So it's It's just it's just moving on, you know, getting back up and proving that the football that I want to play and can plays does work and will work somewhere else? Yeah. But yeah, that's there That's the sort of social life that we live in and the world the way it is today You said you've not really done much over the last six months in terms of obviously football management Have you been watching a lot of football U so the first The first of Three weeks to a month. couldn't watch it. Yeah, hated it Soet hate it D didn't want to watch it, didn't want to talk about it, didn't want to J nothing just leave me alone And you know, job offers came up in that kind of month straight after Souampton And you know, I had to sit down with, you know, my family and my agents and it was like will you know, off the After what happened last year, you kind of just stopp like you need a break Yeah, go away, go and do something. you need to you need to stop. you know, I was Kind of I really want to stop? I'm be thirty three and I'm fine Yeah and I'll literally stop. Yeah. And it's like You know, you start saying no to clubs and you start saying no to people and you kind of think It's about uncomfortable U But to be fair, I think the last six months have been probablyrobably the most helpful. my whole career because you have time to kind of take a step back, look at what works, what doesn't work the mistakes that I've made et cetera, etcetera. And For the last years, four and a half to five months, I've watched E so much football. I've commentated on the Champions Lague which I've been really lucky to do with the bells and TV. U and, you know, worked on myself as well like How do I go from being a nice guy to just a normal manager? How do I go from being the half English, half Belgian, half French guy that does actually work And how do I be more kind of ruthless when the time comes to be ruthless So all these things that you kind of don't have time to do when you're in a job because You're in that kind of washing machine of things that go on and things happen. m, But yeah, I've watched They're probably more footb than I've ever watched over the last number of months whether that's on TV or live or whatever. Yeah I think the againgain young manager, of one of the youngest in Europe, I think I always look and go when you watch football, especially when you're not obvly in charge of a football club Are there any trends in the last five months that you've picked upon that go that you go I actually think that could be the next thing? one hundred percent. yeah But's football's almost doneone. There's I Iit thought it's going backwards. You know, even Pepine There's not all this I you know, there's still a lot going on, but it you know, remember the kind of inverted fallback role and all of this. May my tell first to do it. Um, and, you know, there's there's kind of this Football is always a cycle and there's this kind of new cycle coming now Um where the fashion Last year or even two years ago was everyone attacks three forty three. Yeah. You need two players in the pockets, two midfielders Base of three, two players outside or one player on each side U And that's actually changed now because now you've got two players on the outside and now players It's more of a two plus two and it's so it constantly changes and evolves and I don't think The beautiful thing football is it's not an exact science It's not a There's not like a solution everything. No no. And one a thing that you do with one group ofposose won't systematically work with another group of players in another contacts or club So it's beinging kind of open minded enough and that's why I'm trying to force myself to do it How can I be open minded enough for whatever comes next to get it right, and what is it going to take Um, trends are kind of shifting and evolving and almost coming back Yeah, There's a lot long ball from kicko off now, especially even if they're setting up to play and they're going. I think you were saying there now it's more of a two and a two R senior, I've seen him use a lot of two two and a six. And then I think I think personally for me teeams are trying to attack the middle like through the middle a lot more now. I think like a lot of times the ball goes down the wide areas it's going to fullback you can't take on a man or just someone in an unnatural position Yeah, I think it's really interesting always discuss in like trends And I think this trend is more. Do you agree that the game is just going to like a physical first game do you believe there's actually a loss of technical I think J I mean? You need to just look at the stats. I think there's so much impetus and importance given to that kind of physical element of Yeah, you need to be able to run this far at this intensity You need to be able to sprint, you need to be able to do this, you need to be able to do that. it's like. I don' His first touch needs to be good as well. Yeah ye. and he needs to be able to scan and he needs to be able to see what's going on around him. But that's, you know, for the moment, yeah, that's the way football's going, but it willll be a cycle, I think again where You know, you look I always take the World Cups as an example. You always look at the World Cups and what the teams are doing To me, the Vesel Cut was won in Qatar in terms of quality. In terms of quality in terms of, you know, quality of football played U One because the plers were fresh because it was in the middle of season and's highly end of the season. but also the style of play was just just at the right balance between that kind of technical side of the game and this kind of physical wave of stuff coming in U No, I do agree I don't like how kind of I don't know if this is a word robotized players you become Yeah Yeah in terms of like mechanical. Yeah. It's a very automatic game a very tou structure and ye it's like A on, we need to give the players a bit of a bit of freedom again, and you need to give players a bit of you know, understanding of what they're actually doing and the play and the problem is with the The generation that's coming through is that you've taken all away from them. Yeah. Well, the accademies now. Well you've got to do this, this, this, and this,, hang on Well a game model now which is based obviously cult throughout the entire ofiew you career. I think that's very true. I think when people look we've already mentioned him on his podcast, but I think when people look at Cerkey, they they almost see him as the complete opposite of the way the game's going. But because of the personality that he has as well. Yeah, he's quite you strong arrogantity. almost erogant. Yeah in a good way. We need bit more of that again to not fall into this extreme kind of rough physical battle that it doesn't Iiously have to be. So yeah, I do believe there's There is this trend for the moment, but it always evolves and it always changes. And I'm really curious to see what this World Cup is going to look like. Yeah I think it is going to be quite interesting In this six months was the best scene you've watched Yeah, there are a lot Yeah, there are an awful lot of teams. I think Brentford Oh really Pragmatic he's not trying to revolutionize football. He's one thousand percent the manager of the season. The amount of people who picked him to goal. How everyone was sayertain breall got there ' I mean, currently at the time of recording in the battle for European football is absolutely insan But it's just pragmatic.' not It's not tried to invent something that doesn't need to be invented. It's just been really pragmatic, really down to earth and G it right? U But then you know, I still watch PSE now and it's the same PSC is what they were doing last year. It is impossible to defend. Yeah. There was so much movement, there was so much link up playay and rotations and runs that you've got to be so prepared and so ready to play that game U, but, you know,ve I went to what I commentated on the Munich R Madid game last week incredible. Not the level of. The football was it was one of those games that kind of that went away from that physical kind of stereotype that into and it was like everyveryone giving the ball away a bit more facts actually. And it was like, oh this is This is the kind of football that I actually Yeah this is what we want to pick. That's what I want to watch. When I watch aame I'm like, I want to see red versus blue, N to end bang. ye, ye and then that gets you best at your individuals because I think a lot of the time now you watch individuals and people's talk about like football falling off.. I just think they've got less space. to get behind the ball quicker so they can't get in between you. So when the game is more N to end, you see like Aisa' going the second leg where he's curved it off the post. You see D Bllet Striking from Nedgeer box against Lioopool. And I think that's what you miss. I don' think there's lack of quality. I think The teams are naturally just moreore accustom to the defanding batter Yeah. That was absolutely brilliant. I think than way to wrap it up and O of the best conversations of'vead with football, so' you person. But yeah, thank you very much well, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you at top man.