The Ethics of Camera Destruction Events

Hey, welcome to the Petapixel podcast. For expert advice, incredible selection, and the best deals on photo, video, and lighting gear You go to BN H. BN H is Petapixel's new gear partner. And for even greater savings at BNH, we recommend the BNH Payboo credit card, which lets you save the tax. You pay the tax and B and H pays you back instantly. Save the tax on eligible purchases shipped to eligible states Or you can pay overtime with our six and twelve month financing on minimum purchases of one hundred and ninety nine dollars for six months or five hundred and ninety nine dollars for twelve months Terms apply, learearn more at bhphoto d. com slash paybu. Credit card offers are subject to credit approval. Payboo credit card accounts are issued by Communedity Capital Bank Welcome back, everybody to another episode of the Petap Pixel podcast. And for reasons that will be very clear very shortly, I'm referring to everything in terms of camera timelines this week. so okay. I'm being joined by someone who's been my friend since the Lica SL two on. It's Jaron Schneider. long friendship there, but it has nothing compared to the time I've spent. With this guy since the one D Mark three, I think was the first camera that launched while we were hanging out. it's Chris Nichols. I've lost outuff for time in spacege amount of time. History. It's been a long time. Yeah. abbsolutely. And we're mixing things up a little bit because if you're watching on the video, you can see there's like three letters very prominently in the frame here. We're it KH in Atlanta. Would that be the Nikon FE ish kind of thing, I mean, not quite maybe that was sevent. seventy nine. But seventy nine. Yeahah. I was exactly as old as Chris Nicholas. I was born and KH was born. and here we are So we're going to be talking about used gear a little bit later. We got a ton of actually kind of bleak news is It's a mix. It's not all bleak. can't wait. can't wait suuper excited for this. When I was skimming through the news, the bleak overshad of good. So we're going to touch on that a little bit later. It's going be a great show, but you know, we've been wandering around here. We've already recorded quite a bit of video in this space And gentlemen, I got a question for you. What is The standout thing that you saw while you were walking around like, oh man, I totally forgot that that existed. And here it is right in front of me. Yeah, justust something I had to get left it your memory completely and you saw it in a jarred vivid memories. my God. That's tough. We've seen so much stuff. As you guys know, every single camera model leaves my memory compleonently I honestly don't remember An camera other than this Cnandid of rubble, which is right in front of me right now. What was the last product you reviewed Go What was it? Yeah, you don't remember? It was a T TypC fifty million. Well you goike yeah, yeah. Light Lens lab was the one that That wasn't that four years ago I just don't know That's coming out on Saturday. this place Yeah. I don't I mean, everything disappears. but when we were in the vault with the lovely Larry Hicks here at the Cage vault, there was a Voightlandander Bestet T, and I hadn't thought about that in a long time if that work. Yeah, that's I mean, Jarren talks about it pretty regularly. I that's the R twoA.. Not the tea. No, the tea. And I remember contemplating buying one back in my early days as the camera store when it first came out because I was like, o, this is somewhat affordable. Maybe I should get this. I did not Jaren, you got anything The thing is you ask me what I've forgotten existed and I don't I think I saw anything that I forgot existed. Right. I saw something I wanted. What's that? A Nikon S series rangefinder. Oh yeah. Is that the next step in the But it's not panoramic. That doesn't make any sense for you to I don't only shoot panoramic. I happen to be a panoramic enjoyer, but I also like fetish And I will go on record here. I think that the Nikon Rangefinder and the Canon Rangefinders will be the next cameras that people are like, oh, these are very cool. I want one and they will be harder. now they will Great job.. You just double the price. I have absolutely no sway in how the public thinks of anything. each is super happy because we're increasing the value on all these cameras every minute that goes by You know what is cool though, I do like traveling to these places with with I guess Jarin in a way in that you're like, this will make sense. This makes no. I don't want to exclude you. It's just you know, it's fun to travel these things with Jarren because A lot of the camera models you're not necessarily familiar with. So when we're going around these places,' like, wait, what is that? And then I could be like, well, that's an icon S three range finder. know, it's really cool. So it's this kind of neat to like because you're exploring these things for the first time. Whereas Jordan remembers every single camera he's ever seen in his entire life never forgets it. So I'm like, Jord, look at that. He's like, Yeahah, I know that Chris It's not mean doeses that make sense? Yeah There's well one more thing here too that I want to mention before we get into it. We were in Japan a couple of weeks ago and we were trying to buy a film that Chris really, really likes And we went up to purchase it and they're like, oh, no, we're actually sold out of that. We came in here yesterday. They got tons. and it's on the wall over here. Let's not tell them what it is, and then they'll just be like,'s Chris' favorite fil? Really? No, off course not. no. it's Agg for Photo APX one hundred, which is a beautiful black and white film. Gorgeous tonality has to be developed in rood and all like one to one hundred dilution stand development, but then it's just Well we got he got two rolls of it and I got two rolls of it. so yes you'll probably see some photos of his taken on that soon. He mentioned, by the way the KH vault, that is where they have like the really rare cameras that aren't for sale. They're just nice to look at. We're doing an episode later where Chris is actually going to select one of the cameras out of that vault. I into an episode on it. What that camera is is not this rebel that you're seeing in front of him. No that's a work in front of You don't have three hundred D's in the vaall for some reason. I don't know why This is a masterpiece. We'll get to that Design and plastic. I think a couple of weeks is the plan for that. so you'll see it then, but with that. Yes. withith that, lets let's get into the podcast because there's lots of news this week Before we get into the news, we have to thank our sponsor for today's episode. Well, first off, let's give a big thanks to KH for hosting the episode. I mean that's really nice. But ProMaster Rugged Mmory cards. These are bright orange cards. I use these actually in the LIA M eleven P because yeah, they're reliable. They're fantastic. Pro Master makes a specific card which is designed to be able to survive serious situations The rugged cards designed to keep your work in memory safe, always important. You have one as well. You like. O it's orange, so I don't lose it. I love that. I. Sit point Oh, yes, This is the best card to drop in the grass. You will find it later. So shhadows everywhere in my office. cards go missing, not that one. My line of forest green camouflage memory cards was a really bad idea. But these are fable micro SD SD SF Express type B cards, you can get these throughout. They've got really neat design structure. They're molded in a way that keeps them sealed, keeps them safe. All those little plastic ribs that normally come off SD Those are stupid. Those are stupid. Those are gone. Oh yeah, the proroMester Rugs don't have those. so it just keeps these safe. justust industrial grade designed to survive extreme heat, moisture, rain, snow E like that. The lock switch, they've modified that. it's not going to it's not going to break off. So all the parts that normally break offff aren't going to break off. So Really good, premium components, they've been fast, they've been reliable. I've had zero issues with it so far. You should definitely check those out. The rugged CF Express Tpe B cards provide an unbeatable combination of premium components and blazing fast speeds, so they're up to the most demanding challenges of capture as well as workflow. There's a link.'s a link Check the link in the description below to learn more about ProMaster's line of memory cards. Thank you so much to ProMaster for sponsoring this episode of the Petapixel podcast. Hey, wait Jaron, before we get to the news, I'd like to throw down a challenge because you both have personal testimonialimonials of KH experiences like , you'veought got some cameras,'ve had some repairs done here. Chris has purchased equipment and that beautiful, stunning expensive equipment from KH. I don't. What actually about I think it was a joke because's sixty millimeter lens It's on the table. b itam. So I have had this damn seventy seven to eighty two millimeter stepping ring stuck onto a magnetic filter for about a year now. It's driving me crazy. is that? Separate eighty two millimeter filters like an absolute caveman all the time My challenge is I'm just going to slide this over here and see if maybe that can be repaired by the time we leave this place. If so that is that technically a repair I'm just curious if they can split those two apart. I'm happy to like just get rid of the eighty two stepping ring, but I'm too I want that magnetic thing. I'll have it off here in a second This is my challenge I'm gonna go get it. Let's get to the news. Okay, well, then let's find out next week if they actually were able. No, I'm hoping by the end of the episode. Oh is This is my challenge. We're in a room, no one's allowed to come in into or leave, This was not thought through. You just thought if you threw filters on the table. It was like someone for this happened Yeah I was curious. Well, I'm going to try and keep my hands on the steering wheel here. We're going talk about the news. This week, there's a lot to go over. First, we're going to talk about Chris's favorite camera brand, Camp Snap hasas announced not the Cam Snap proro. I don't know why you do this Cam Snap two It is a slightly different design with more accessory support and it's smaller than the last one. And Chris, you don't have to plug it into a computer to change the looks on there. Yeah, which was a ridiculous implementation like Can we just do the review right now on the podcast? It's basically the same camera. It's smaller and lighter, which nobody needed because it was already incredibly small, light becausecause it's made of very thin molded plastic. It comes in other fun colors. Oh, they did the whole that whole like translucent color plastic that the game boy did back nineties. You know, it's still got like the built in four gigs in memory. so you can't change it or anything like that. And if it fails, it goes in the trash Um yeah, I don't know, man. like don't make me review it. The image quality is the same Please, please don't. I mean, it's nice you don't have to like go into a computer and use DOS or something like that to like change your color fl fun. That That was the most hilarious thing about the original camp snap is they're like this is designed for kids to bring to camp with them where they're not allowed to have screens. If you want to change the profile, you a laptop. Yeah. So you're gonna stick with one. I don't know, man, I think they're done Interesting that they went and made a new version of it. Do you think that it was because they felt a new version was necessary or that they felt that they could get more attention on it if they released a V two That's probably well, look, I mean, there were some complaints on the first one and these are genuine. Yeah, genuine complaints, but they' minor changes, but you know, I guess the thing I want to get across is it's poignant that we're in the KH warehouse right now. Pt Ptinent. poignant. No, it's poignant. It's poignant becausecause KH's sort of, you know, philosophy is to sell use cameras, give them a second home, you know, not put them in the trash. It was pretty neat to see also like the repair departments collecting the old cameras to use as spare parts and like nothing goes to waste Even like lens caps and straps and stuff that would normally go in the garbage don't go to waste here, right? So I guess my point is These new cameras like You can't repair these really. They're going to get old. The memory' going to fail and they are going to end up in e waste. And I just don't like that concept. I'm almost a little disappointed that the flash is still an LED Yeah, which is pointless. And anyways, get started. They address reiew everybody and yeah, please don't make me do it What was that Jordan I said they addressed one of your complaints, the profile thing. The rest of it isntched.. And I get that you want to make these affordable and stuff, but and look, Cam Snap, I'm not trying to signal them out. There's so many manufacturers making these now, but I feel like they're short periods of fun for like a couple months and then people get tired and bored because the implementations are toyish So I think it's poign I think that I'm sticking with that people Pignant and pertinent. Um Moving on Jordan, Zeiss announced all new anamorphic lenses that have motors and swappable quote unquote looks. need a rubber These are really just pass it pass it to a professional. Interesting looking. I'm gonna try and keep us moving in the same way.ububber band Jordan, talk me a little bit about these Zeysice anamorphics. Yeah, I mean, the cool thing, like when I think Zeys cinema lenses, I generally think spherical. Like the super speeds are pretty legendary. The CP series are very popular, like budget options. They're very contrasty, they're very saturated Um But now they're moving over to the anamorphic side. What I love is this is a two times anamorphic. I'm not crazy. We're seeing a bunch of like One point three is one point five anamorphics. And I really find like the effect is a lot more noticeable with the heavier squeeze factor, especially if you want to move the camera. What's weird is you look at these things and they look like a broadcast lens. They do like there's no external controls on them. whereere typically when you're looking at cinema lens, it's like, oh, we have this lovely sigma twenty eight to one hundred five we're going to talk about a little later this month They're just covered in physical controls so they can be operated easily where this is designed to like integrate directly into a followllow focus unit. You're controlling everything electronically. So I think they'll be quite popular when you're doing like highigh end like motion control work, things like that. But it's not designed for someone to actually be touching the lens So it's interesting that they're basically, it's not like they're taking one of their proven formulas and trying this in a new form factor. They're going, Anamorphic, heavy squeeze factor which they're not known for and then completely changing up the electronics on it. So yeah, it's a really interesting design from Zeiss Did you find what you were looking for? Yes. great. The wonderful staff have helped me out with a rubber band. I'm gonna do my best here now to get ridady. So these anamorphic lenses the Horizon series are available in thirty five forty, fifty, seventy five, one ten, one fifty ten two hundred millimeters U They're all T two point three except for the two hundred, which is a two a T two point nine. Yeah, those are fast for anamorphics with that the squeeze factor are heavy Th point they range in weight from two point four two to three point two five kilograms five point three to seven point one seven pounds. These are beefy boys. J super glue this Jordan No, see, that's why I wanted a professional to take a look at it. a cliff. I've tried everything, man. That's why I was hoping the service center could help me out. So this month We're expecting The review embargo to lift on GoPros's new Mission series cameras. And to be clear, not the entire series, just the Mission one Yes, and U Well, news broke this week that GoPro is on the brink and has quote, substantial doubt about its survival They are not doing well Of course, in response to this news, their share price dropped fourteen percent.. That was bad. There' eight six percent drop in revenue in the first quarter of this year.. They're down eighty seven percent. share price over the last year. They are not doing well Over the past five years, GPro share prices has fallen eighty nine percent They are a publicly traded company So all of this is out there Jordan, do you think based on your limited experience so far with the Mission one, that that is enough to save this company? I haven't used this a ton. kind of fell in a horrible part of our schedule But when I was first getting briefed on it, I was incredibly excited by what this camera iss offering, the new sensor, new processor. There's a lot of cool stuff there. The problem is they simultaneously launched what I think might even turn out to be vaporware at this point, the interchangeable lens version of this camera, which stole all the headlines, all the attention. It's not a terribly compelling camera. Met four hundred thirty this mount an electric connection. Yeah with the smaller sensor there Which again, it might make sense for like putting a longer lens on, so it'll match with your existing GoPros, But the bread and butter is the action camera, the ultra wide fixed lens version of this, which absolutely no one is talking about because we were all so baffled by it, which looks like an awesome camera. you know, and it moves things up market, which might be enough for GoPro to actually start making a profit because their cameras have all been They're under that five hundred dollars mark for black the highest end black version. So this gives them the option for yeah, making a little more profit per unit, still selling accessories for it But I think this launch has been so incredibly bungled. like it has had multiple ters. There's been review embargos where the dates has been shifted or like we've known about this camera. It got launched a long time ago. P NAB, we Yeah at it. Yeah. I think they kind of bungled this launch, which was their real shot at like, hey, let's get a pile of preorders. That'll make the numbers look really good. Aren't they it hasn't happened. No, I mean it makes sense to try to get it out early only because I mean, the real issue is Every other Chinese companies's eatating their lunch. Yes, right. That's the problem. You got DGI, you got Insta three hundred and sixty. actually so many other third party companies are trying to make these action cameras as well So maybe they're trying to get ahead of it, build up some hype. you know, they were getting images out there, which kind of look good. We of course did a story on it on a podcast a few weeks ago or quite a few weeks ago But yeah, I mean, maybe just putting the word mission into an action camera is a really bad idea. L anyim we mion and it's just like, he's referring to the Nikon P mission series which almost sank the company. Yikes. Yikes. But yeah, it's tough. I mean, I feel for them. They were obviously one of the first companies to make action cameras, by far the biggest name in it for many, many years. Yeah. their marketing was final. I mean really well loved products. We all used them in love U But yeah, it's tough. Everybody in their dog has copied this idea and it's really taken off Yeah, I mean this is a situation where so often I'm like, well, yeah, it makes sense because their products haven't been good for a while. And I would say that like I've liked the last few editions of GoPro, but they definitely not like inspired the market to the same extent as what the other companies are going to do. but this is a really exciting, good looking camera that I'm looking forward to using a lot more. So yeah, it's a shame that this news comes. Right as they're doing something that could potentially have turned the ship around except again, I just think this launch was horribly done Another story that's not fantastic news. I'm not really sure how to take this really. It could be good news Capture One's private equity owner, the one that purchased it and Phase one and then split those into two separate companies, so they're no longer connected. U They're trying to sell Capture one The information around this was pretty difficult to get to. The only data that we had was being reported by Groups that specifically cater to the high end business market. And so the only way you could read their articles typically is to be a subscriber to them or like a member of their group. And one of the articles that we were looking at it cost twenty five thousand dollars to read it They wereerman in chief. I should just give you. They were generous kingdom. They were generous enough. This is a global credit intelligence and data firm They were generous enough to let us read the article for not twenty five thousand dollars And yeah, in here, it's pretty clear there are reasons to think that Capture O is going to be sold, or at least the private equity owner is doing trying to offload the debt that they've got tied up in Capture One. It looks like they want to sell both Capture One and phase one and they're starting with Capture onene The thing is, Capture One hasn't exactly been doing better since they were acquired. They've had a tumultuous couple of years here, hey, like So There is one person in the comments on Petapixel who's like, why would you report on this and none of the new features that Capture O's launched in the last? Be they don't tell us. Like I had no idea that Capture One actually was launching new features because their communications department has shifted people multiple times over the last few years. Like Every time we send an email to someone who emailed us last time, it bounces because that person no longer works there. It's not an environment cultivate great cms So I don't know, man. I I think 's probably true, only that because they continue to lose money on the purchase So like getting rid of it now before they lose even more money on it would be the move of a private equity firm. I just don't know who would buy it. I know there are people who are like, well, like who would be a good purchaser I heard Canva as someone who wouldd be a good purchaser in Apple. Canva already just ye launched their own photo editing. That doesn't make much sense. Sorry, continue your thoughts. Well the only reason it doesn't make sense for those two is well Apple maybe there isn't really anyone who's got anything that competes with Lightroom except Capture one.ike there's a very specific work the tethering, the libraries, the way it works is very unique to those two softwares. Right. I was thinking actually a better purchaser might be DXO. Yeah, and then just draw their AI features into it. but they already cater to a higher end audience. Yeah. So why not give them the features that people have wanted to not use like they just don't want his lightroo anymore. G him something else? And I don't think theXO has any tethering support in any of their. would So it would really kind of fit in their n. And yeah, Capture One has fantastic. The software right jor software. I still primarily edit photos on Capture One as long as they're supported. So yeah I love it. I'd like to see a solid competitor to Adobe dririve and unfortunately, Capture O's been You know, there's been new features, but they definitely feel a little bit behind in terms of optimization and you some of their masking features and stuff like that took a little more time to come out. But I love the way it handles color, which is why I keep going back to Capture one Phase O has not been making uch of a profit if any over the last several years. So it's not looking great. I'm not sure the problem is like what they would try and sell it for is more than I think a lot of companies would see the value. It's highly specialized now. Yeah.' I mean, it would actually be interesting to maybe do a dive into how Phase one is doing as a company Oh ye the camera company Yeah The camera company is another story entirely Yeah. I haven't heard anything from phhase one since the camera that you reviewed two years ago. was the wooden handle. Yes, incredibly expensive Very strange. veryer niche. Its niche has a niche. You know what I mean? It would be cool to try the actual system. We've never reviewed them. I think that would be really interesting. I think you need more DSLRs in your life, Chris. Besides this hunk of trash here. This Why would you call this a hunk of trash? This is' digital reubel three hundred D I was just telling those who are only listening that you're. I'm holding a Canon digital Rebel three hundred D. This is not a hunk of trash. This is a piece of history This was the first affordable digital DSLR. This opened up before this historically incredibly important. Yeah, before this DSLR no fun to look at. incredibly expensense. Yeahes, it' hideous. They doup I don't know process the images. It's an old camera. It's ancient. Don't blow your load now talking about it. You're doing a video on a writer. Yeah. But I'm just saying I will not stand here and have people call this a hunk of trash. Okaykay. This is a this is a historic There are dozens of us Jordan about a month ago, maybe a month and a half ago, we talked about a new micro four thirds lens hitting the market. It was an eighteen millimeter F one point four by a brand called YolLiv. I have to scream at our commenters and readers here shortly, but yes, follow through with the rest of this story. Well, you said this is cool. it's neat. This is an uerserved focal length. It would be nice to have a nice, very affordable lens in this area And you said you wanted to review it. Yes. So I made that happen. I went and got that lens. thenen what happened? I've held that lens. I mounted it to multiple cameras and they wouldn't even turn on or just gave me a black screen. You can see examples in the article here of my experience with that, but this is a micro four thirds lens. There's a logo right on the box there, saying Micro four thirds. What does it mean to be Well, a micro four thirds lens. We did a little deep diving and it's actually pretty specific. The protocol is the size of the lens mount, the electrical connections, and basic focus and auto exposure functionality. But if among brands, all brands and lens.es, every interchangeable everythingvery to yeah use that and say we are part of the micro four thirds lens mount align They don't say Alliance. They should. it's the group. Yeah, and I do just want to give some cont toller. I should give some context here in that Yol Live did sort of like do the due process to becomere an official member. Yeah to become a member. what they didn't do is make this lens to the standard required to be a member is really the context going on. Right, correct. That's the story here. They did not do that. So this lens that Jordan was very excited to review is not actually a micro four thirds lens. Yeah. It doesn't function specifically for a Yolo live camera apparently work on that I haven't tested. I mean does a GoPro mission Micro four thirds. No. it would it won't because it needs electrical control in order to that's the thing. The Micro four thirds is only going to work with dumb lenses. this isn't even a dumb lens where I can just shoot through it, manually set my, you, aperture and my focus, things like that. It requires electrical control. So it's a paperweight unless you put it on a Yolo live camera And All of the people in the comments, when we said like this is underserved, they was like, there's a seventeen one point eight from OM and there's, you know, all of the there's a fifteen millimeter one seven from Panasonic call this, but there's nothing this fast in this focal length and this cheap available.ure. So having like it's a sub three hundred dollars eighteen millimeter F one point four, like that's a thirty six millimeter veryy common, very useful focal length With a very bright aperture, which I think a lot of people will be very interested in in Micro four thirds. You can't separate the focal length from the aperture. And I do think this kind of sets itself apart from a lot of the options there. So it would be cool if people could use it on their cameras, which is why I wanted to review it, but they can't. But again take another stab at it, do you think? So in order to remain a member of the Micro four thirds group and to sell products with the Micro fourthds logo. Yeah. Yolo live, Yolo Live. I like Yolo Live. I'm gonna to go with Yolo Lve, evenven if I don't know if that's how it's said. You only live once, live. There's no E Um E if they they don only live once, Elizabeth, That's right They updated. They have to make a firmware update for this lens so that it does work on other cameras. And they've been put on notice by the Micro fourthds group because we reported this. actually I learned a lot about how the Microforthods group works through this process. It's a self governing group and I'm not sure how long it would have taken for them to discover that this was happening if we didn't tell them that this was happening. Right, Right What's cool too. Like, yes, we have we're heroes Is the main takeaway? Yeah. If you appreciate our heroism, then you should probably get like a petapixel membership. But also I'm gonna to hold ono this lens because this gives me the possibility we might be able to see an update for it, test it and see if it now does become something compelling for my co for. Thds users. Interesting story. In which case I want my face on the box. Okay. And Jer. Nobody wants your face on the box. but like I'm curious because it has the electrical connectivity Is it a firmware update away from working or is it hardwired to the bodies only We don't know. Always claimed that they were they have were working on right the update to make it work with other micro fourthwards lenses we asked them, they did respond, I believe, you know, before this news story broke and they were like, We can't guarantee compatibility with other w. They were very which they very clearly knew. Yeahah, don't do it, it won't work. And we've seen that plenty of times where it's like, oh, the continuous auto focus isn't up to snuff or something. What we haven't seen is something where there's any usable functionality camer' is just straight up set, out don oft wan to. Yeah Yeah. yeah. ye. couldn' have happened to a better focal length I don't know what time Uh, moving on Speaking of private equity. Yeahah, it turns out a Chinese private equity firm, HSG has emerged as the leading bidder to buy the steak in like a camera Black Rck and also I believe it was the actual from Kaufman's shares. Austrian billionaire Andreas Kaufman, who has a fifty five percent stake in Laica If he elects to sell, that would be who he'd be selling to. Now we did talk about this months ago, right? because this has been out now for a while. Not the name of the group that might purchase No onlyn that they were interested in possibly selling. Our news was like, yeah, it was full of conjecture. but in that we I think we did state like very likely Chinese goment down down. it now looks like accurately surmised that a Chinese company would buy Which does make sense. Yeah, I don't love it I mean, who knows, right? Like I guess the thing that when we were first talking about this, I mean, Andreas Kaufman iss cool, dude. We've talked to dor. Kaufman many times. And what is clear is He absolutely loved the L a name, the L a brand, what Lka stood for and put a lot of yeah, put a lot of effort into maintaining a certain heritage there and a certain kind of method of doing business And I think that's been very successful for Lica. So I guess the question now is if another private equity firm comes in, are they going to honor that in the same way? Are they going to lead it in a similar way? Are they going to change it completely? And that's big news because like I would argue that LI is one of the companies that has really done very well In recent history here, like very well as a camera company As a camera company, very successful, very profitable, sticking to their guns and what they want to do, sticking to their philosophy that's been very good for them. And so any change, like, do we do you want to rock the boat? Do you want to keep it going? Well I just read this here. I was reminded. HSG was formerly the Chinese investment segment and a you pay attention to private equity, Sequoia capital. I don't is a very well known. Me neither. private equity confirm. so ye, I don't know, man. um I dont I mean, who knows. I don't imagine that they're going to want to do a huge transition and upset They would They're going to want to get their money back, though. That's the issue. Sure. Private equity always looks at what they've purchased and say, how can we extract our investment fastest out of this? And that usually results in disismantling parts of the company and selling them off or dismantling parts of the company and reducing the amount of money it takes to operate them, which of course, then reduces the valuability of the company. So like what I wouldn't want to see is like a move away from it's like handmade in Germany thing because I feel like that's really valuable, but that's also really expensive. So like would they not immediately think, couldn't we just sell this exact same product but make it in China instead And the answer is yeah, you could, but would you want to Yeah. Anyway, we'll see, as Chris likes to say. we will see Yeah and we'll take It's such a good phrase, such a useful phrase for so many things in life, you know what I mean Speaking of Chinese companies seegue power here. Lucky. We all know lucky. they make film Their new Color C two hundred film is finally making its way into the world, the marketplace. We've actually found that it's difficult to they don't have an official distributor, it doesn't sound like. But there are a couple of dealers in North America that have managed to get their hands on it. The largest major retailer who actually is getting it regularly is Midwest Photo out in Ohio Hio. Yes. We have some photos here from the that we're taking with it. And Chris, why don't you give me your thoughts? I. Okay, so here's firstly Well here ye. let me tell you how much it costs. Okay, a roll of this is fourteenllars ninety nine cents That's a lot. That's a lot of money Yes for what is effectively. A slightly differently tinted Kodak gold, but go ahead Okay, so so we've had some disagreement on this, you and I. It love it. I know. Okay. So I think again, context is important. like Lucky has been a film emulsion manufacturer for a long time. in sort of the past few years, they were really ramping down production. I maybe that was because of poor sales. I don't know, right? Like it We've tested the SHD film. You're not a huge fan of it. You know, there's been some Oh, when you did the Tam moo film So ChrisHD. I've maintained Chris was way too easy on those companies because every roll he gave me to shoot had something wrong with it. One of them had a giant hair running straight. You consider like another one hair was a downside light too all hell. Which is so cool now. like you are cool No I'm staying out of it. Did you have to work with digital c? Digital cameras add light leaks on purpose now. it's cool, dude. No, okay, look, I used to buy Lucky film at the dollar store. That's how I first used it. and honestly, I didn't have any issues with that film. it had a really weird color thing. It was awesome. But yes, okay, yes. SHD, we've had some problems with dust and I will give you that. But Lucky has stated they were going to reintroduce new emulsions. like they're ramping production up again.' They're getting back on the analog game, which I assume means new machinery, new production lines, new emulsions, new technology. And this is the latest film. I didn't see any hairs on the sample photos, but maybe like looks like they are clean them up so that at least they would be a reliable film The thing is though when we first heard about Lucky's new color film, I think it was like two years ago, the idea behind it was that it was going to be cheap.ure. You want like like an affordable film in color. like right now we have an affordable black and white film that's keent me pan two hundred, which is great. veryy affordableaut.autiful by Harmon. I'm notar. Okay. So like that's sweet. I was looking for a color equalent and I thking, okay, cool Lucky could get into this But it' fourteen doars ninety nine cents roll, that is It is a lot too high for what this film is in my. It looks like it has terrible now.'ming I'm playing devils advocate, okay? because all film now is getting expensive and like it has a neat look. The quality looks better than the dollar store stuff that I used to use. I mean, that was really very poor. What a bar you've set. This is yeah, Well exactly. but this like it looks like it's got good resolution, has an interesting color palette It's funny that it's accentuating the red tones, but at the same time, the overall color balance is kind of cold. Yeah. That's kind of neat, you know what I mean I lookook, all the Chinese companies now are in this position where they're trying to get away from this perception of being the bargain basement branding, right? They're trying to get away from this needed that. Okay. But they don't want to be that anymore. They don't want to be that anymore. They want to make film that competes with the other brands. I'm not saying that this does it. I have to try some myself to make the decision I think gone are the days where Chinese companies want to be these super affordable trash companies, okay? And so and Lucky's trying to do that Besides look, as we saw in the Tamu Black andway, there's still lots of companies making really cheap film out there from China. it wasn't that cheap. That's been hit or miss. It wasn't that cheap. No. So I'm just a little disappointed, I guess that Lucky did not get under the ten dollarars mark. I would have liked if this film was like seven or eight dollars a roll, I'd be like, cool, that's actually pretty solid. Right. But it's almost double that. So what's affordable now when it comes to like a color film emulsion? Cod of color is pretty good How much is Coda Color, do you guys remember? It's still like twelve bucks, isn't it? Yeah, okay, so it's If I had to pick between this and cotacolor, I'm going to pick cotacolor Yeah, okay, sure because you want nice color and also It's also two dollars Less hairs, less legs shot. I'm just saying it doesn't really to me compete well. I'd like to hear what you guys think.. takeake a look at the pictures.'ve I've put the link in the description below Please tell me if you think that this is worth what Lucky's charging. I legitimately want to know because film is very big now. People like shooting film, peopleople like shooting film cameras I just don't see it for what they're asking. What I'm liking here though, is like the canisters are not the reloaded plastic canisters, They're pressed metal canisters, right? And two hundred's nice. I want to try it when it comes out and see what the look is and what the result make that happen is. Yeah. You have do a handnap review. we do that for you guys, but definitely leave the comments below and let's prove Jaron wrong. All right, last one I want to kind of loop back to this because years ago, you guys recall, we went and swung by Glass AI, a company that is based out of it was Silicon Valley. And we went there and we saw that they were doing an upscaling technology that was they argued better than any other upscaling technology. It would not only give you more resolution, but it would make that resolution look better And they showed us in person, they took pictures of us on a drone and they fixed the picture in post. and honestly, it was impressive. It looked really cool. Sure. But then we're like, okay, but you have to actually do that real, likeike put that in a real cama put that in a smartphone. Smartphone was the target. Yes. And at the time they were like testing it against lots of different raw files. I mean, because they're trying to build data right? So they're going in with Nikons and cananons and Olympus and all that kind of stuff, and they were working it. But yeah, now it's actually in a phone Yeahah, it's not one that North Americans would know much about. It's honor Um, But they have their technology in there and it is So what here here's the thing. that camera has way more resolution to start with than an iPhone. So in in this article, it's comparing what the hor phone does with the same scene versus an iPhone That said Historically, more resolution in a smartphone photo does not equal more usable detail every time It's a little better, but it's not leaps and bounds better when you just add resolution. Yeah, I think it's, you know primarily where the benefit of this is is going to be in the telephoto lenses, which are historically bad on smartphones in comparison to the other obviously the main camera. You know, like we've seen a lot of telephotoshots where the resolution sucks. and Hor's not the only person or company trying to do this. like Google's done it with AI, which I think look. So ye, here's the thing, It's using genenAI to do it, which is not the same thing Glass has been built. Exactly. So if you look at Glass's results, it looks like it's taken with a real camera. It's not adding weird funkiness. There's no called hallucinations. It's not adding things that aren't No, it's not generative. I mean, and look, you've got super resolution modes and lightroom and stuff too, right? where you can resolutionular really impressive Look When we saw the results at the Glass studio, like it was pretty good. Hey, L I was I was It was very ye. I mean, it increased detail, did not increase noise, in fact, reduced noise in some cases. Yeah, I mean If this was just built into the pipeline of your phone and you were just told that they had a system that made the pictures look better and they just looked like this, I feel like all you would say is nice things. I do think substantial resolution benefits with a telephoto lens on a smartphone is a good thing to do. Like it's a weakness of smartphones A lot of these five time zooms you're going to go tighter even still you're going to want to crop. And if you have more resolution afterward with digital editing and you can crop further, great. But again, we got to test it So we not against it. Yeah, we probably won't look at this phone No, I think seeing it arrive in a device is neat and we'd like to see this arrive in more devices going forward So anyway, I just want that's kind of a loop back on something we've discussed in the past and it's it is actually coming out. My thing with a lot of these companies that we look at like they have these really grand ideas. Yeah like that's cool and then we never hear from them again. Yeah. Glass is actually still around. So ye, good on them. Yeah. I think we should also point out too like what is interesting about glasses is it's not sort of like editing a Rafael afterwards, right? I believe that their processing happed in the pipeline. Yeah. So which is cool. Yeah, which is cool Uh okay. We're going to shift gears a little bit and we're going gonna to talk about some used gear and actually get some information about like what's going on in the market because we don't get that from news sellers in North America very often. So we've asked some challenging questions of KEH, so we're going to bring one of them on to chat with us here for a little bit and yeah, then we'll wrap up the show after that. All right We have time protect support? we have time protect. Yes All right, so joining us now is Dinko Ivoyevich. He's going to have a conversation with us and help us out with the runnings of Gage. it seems like you have I have rings. Oh see now they get a glowing personal testimonial. KH, whether you have rings stuck together or you're looking for a new camera, new used camera What a great place that I can personally say has helped me out Hi, welcome to the show.. So we have a bunch of questions here. We'll see how many we can get through. But one of the things that we don't get a lot of in the US is information on what's popular because nobody tells us. So but I think that there is a line to draw between what's popular in the used market and what's popular in the new market. So maybe you can shed some light on some stuff here To start with Are there any specific camera models or camera types that are challenging to keep in stock either because they're very popular or because they're rare available to add to your inventory? I definitely say any kind of current modern release is hard to keep in stock just because there's so little used supply for it Outside of kind of that, compact cameras, especially X one hundreds, Rico GRs, that kind of thing for sure They're immensely popular and people are coming in every day asking for them or equivalents to them Just because they're so hard to keep in soock. What's an equivalent to them like a? Yeah a lot of people like through TikTok recommendations and such are getting a lot of the older can point and shoots recommended. Someone share is sh. Yeah. Recently, I've had a lot of people coming and asking for old Nikon ones Really? People are starting to find out about them. seeee that they' these really small cute cameras came in a bunch of colors, removable lenses. They were definitely ahead of their time for that one. They were way too far ahead of their time. I still want to find an AW one. I'm on that. I miss that camera enormously. And I remember there was a stretch where we wanted to do a shootout of all the X one hundred series and it's like, yeah, KH is going to partner with us for that But it actually took a little time until like the entire series came into. I think you guys were holding them for us and stuff. Do they come in and then disappear so quick? Just as a side note to that I didn't go, I'm interested to hear like you mentioned modern digital bodies. slightly older, like an A seven four or something A seven three. like how what is that market like? Are a lot of people just switching brands? Are you noticing that quite a bit? It ebbs and flows With what people are looking to shoot and as their style changes, I think every brand is kind of carving out its own niche and speaking to that customer So you'll have, you know, a wedding photographer come in and they may shoot Sony or Canon typically. And they'll come in and ask, oh, I need a camera for the weekends for my kids. So they're going to look at Fujis and maicas. Right. And so you get a big breath of people just constantly switching back and forth. And a lot of, you know, people still with DSLRs upgrading trying to see because now you've got a lot of the ESR and the first gen Mirrorless cameras are becoming quite affordable and they're still, you know, full frame Monstrouers, Right, right Is there a camera lens you wish you had an infinite stock of because it's just that popular and easy to sell. hundred Yeah. Is it the X one hundred again? The X one hundred? abbsolutely. moreore so I'd say like K one thousands, A on s, those good solid beginner film cameras. Really just We can't make anymore. Nobody's making them. And so keeping that supply up is hard, especially once, you know college and school season comes around, they're still on a lot of major syllabuses for colleges. But are they hard to find? I mean, I feel like you can see K one thousand A onees like all over Craigslist and all over like all that kind of stuff still. And the supply is still short on it. Really leave it without as manyers out there and then, you know, a lot will try and source either cameras for repair that aren't broken and go through our repair department to keep more in the supply. Right. So that's always a challenge is keeping those beginner, medium Excuse me, thirty five Millimeter camera is in stock. And then a lot of the, you know, current digitals, compacts Yeah Oh. I expected they would be still quite common. Yeah ye. I figured they were easy to find, but maybe that's no, no I guess maybe in like a If you're just looking at online, absolutely, but there's so many photographers that aren't in the film space, they're just told You need to go get this camera for this class that are just getting into it. ight And so that demand is just like, it's crazy. So you touched on this a little bit How? immediately impactful R trend. So like like Specifically one, not the idea of one, but like let's say one becomes popular or like if you see a celebrity using it, like Taylor Swift or like with she had an OM camera, for example. Yeah. Only four, I think. EM one EM ten four Yeahah the Contact G series with Sabrina Carpenter. Contacts T Ocean, Kylie Jenner, Tylie the Creator. The Contacts T was kind of the big one that started that off. Yeah. So yeah, we definitely notice them as we do these buying events around the country and then we talk to our customers on the phones, on Zoom calls you know, they see an event happen, a gala or something. they see a camera and then they wonder what that is. So the feedback loop tends to be pretty quick, especially as people are like, Oh, I'm into film. I saw this X person had a film camera. I want that film camera because I admire like person X.'s The feedback loop gets pretty quick and then It brings in people who aren't necessarily into photography. They may be into fashion. R They more or less become fashion accessories as well. You want the camera because of how it looks. How does that make you feel? Personally Good and bad. I want to see the cameras used, but I'm happy that people, you know admire these marvels of engineering and design They are are in themselves of someone coming up with these. So You know, I'd rather see them m and it makes me happy to see such celebrity shooting film and keeping that alive and keeping Kodak in business. To tie into that, about a year ago when someone said that the GM five is the greatest digital camera ever made. Oh, that was me. Did you see an uptick all of a sudden? Yeah the answer No. little bitty pan ofonics running out the door. Absolutely. Absolutely. We can't keep those on the s. Yeah. Actually, the GyM five price is crazy. L it's out of control. Somebody messaged me recently like, oh, I have an opportunity buy a GyM five with a lens for like three thousand dollars shouldhould I do it? I was like, o my God, how much did you pay for yours? It doesn't matter. And then I looked smarling. It doesn't matter Yeahah. And then I looked on eBay, and I was like, o man, these are going for crazy. But that does bring up an interesting point. Like the GM five specifically I don't think it was that popular Certainly not like in a celebrity sense, but a lot of phhotographers You know, like Emily, for example, Tom Calton, myself, like we're like, oh, the Jimm fivei is legit, like one of our favorite cameras, super fun But I don't think it's super trendy with celebrities or anything like that. It is interesting to see how fashion models and actors and singers and stuff like they pick up these cameras and they become insanely popular right away While other cameras that are very similar analogs don't become popular. And you know, that's like that was one of the things that strikes me. you're walking around here at KH and you're looking in the warehouse and you're like, why wouldn't anybody want this camera, that camera? likeike, you know, there's like Nikon coolpixs, nobody wants. There's Pentax cameras nobody wants. You're like these are all very similar products, but you can't keep it You can't keep it canon G seven in stock. Like it's crazy to Seems strange Uh We've seen new DSLR shipments decrease steadily and significantly over year But in the used market, we understand from other overseas sellers that DSLRs and lenses seem quite popular with a stable demand Is that true for you as well? Absolutely. Yeah, DSRs are probably the best value in the market. B for buckwise and you've got what twenty, thirty years of auto focused lens catalogs to. So there's just a bounty of items out there and they provide a great value, They're full frame, auto focus is great. They're a great entry point. And as time goes on too, servicing them will become a thing. And I think DSLRs in general are poised to be able to service for the life of them. Right A lot of mechanicals and a lot of mechanical stuff And so a lot of people are also going, I've heard from people wanting a different shooting style They want to hear the mirror thk. It's kind of The film thing all over again is just a different way of shooting. So I think DSLRs will kind of slot into a niche kind of like like us found with the findinders Do you think they O was right? Well we't know yet. I careful say. Yeah, how many Petex Rico DSLRs are being sold on the news market? D are they popular? I don't see too many. Yeah. probablyably the what of the K five three monochrome? Yeah, ye. yeah, yeah, K five monochrome would be popular. You know, that's an interesting thing. I was kind of wondering that myself is like a new photographer or newer photographer coming in that wants to shoot digital, How often are they choosing a very capable DSLR versus maybe like an even older mirrorless camera? It depends on their priorities, especially. If they're just starting out, but they are already in like from the younger side, maybe yearbook, going into college sports, something like that, they know they need a big lens, they need a big body. Right. And so they're looking at how to get essentially the cheapest seventy to two hundred do on X body. R. And with Mirrless, the body costs, especially at the entry level are older are reasonable now, but getting the lenses, the lenses are still the same price. Gotcha. And that becomes kind of the bottleneck for a lot of people is how do how do I get that reach? I get that wide angle for a reasonable sum. Adapting lenses is always an option. A lot of people do that So you'll take, EF to RF mount adapters and such. but at the end of the day, people don't want to really deal with them, especially if you're in the field. Yeah. They want to just attach the lens and go. I just wonder how many like new photographers are saying, oh, I want to get like a reubel T three or something like that used, right? I mean the price, I mean, this thing costs nothing, right? I'm not advocating the three hundred D for beginners But like I think I think established photographers defefinitely appreciate like, oh yeah, get a D eight fifty, get a five D mark four, right? Like And so that value, I think is still holding pretty well. And for like the D eight hundred fifty there won't be a better DSLR made ever again. Yeah, you're Probably not. That is the end of the line. So it it's a lot of ways like film. You have the film grades and I think as we go on and DSLRs really wind down in production, we're going to kind of get that cream that rises top of what's what are the DSRs? Yeah. I'm wondering when like affordable old school DSLRs will be Again What's an old school DSLR? Well, like like an older pen tax Ro, like like an ISD or something like that or you know, like I'm sure it's fifty bucks right now. Yeah, Like I'm sure the price on them is very, very low. I don't know what a T two I goes for nowadays, but it can't be that expensive. You know, like when are those entry level early DSLRs are going to become c ool again. Like we are seeing this cyclical trendiness continue through. I'm wondering if it's What might hold that back from happening is that a lot of the cameras look like the one that's in front of you right now. and they just just don't have any This isn't cool Cache. They just don't look cool. And I'm wondering in order for that to look cool to want to be seen holding that, what style would have to evolve to for that to happen? Because style is cyclical. and I don't think there's been a single like way people have dressed in the history of being dressed that would go well with that camera. No, but like, okay, I would argue like a PenteXKS two, I think it's a pretty cool looking camera. I mean, yeah, like, you know, and they're capable and they're nice shooters I don't know. Yeah. Canon eightyD is neat. You know what I mean? Like I don't know. L Is it though What was the funky Pentax the very boxy one? It was like Oh, the Kle one. Kle one. Oh, that's a piece cool. No, that's garbage. That should I had to shoot the show for a month. No that it was I would not rish that camera upon anybody. That's an awful experience. but Test two tax. Let's see if we can get that to be fifteen thousand dollars. It says volumes that the KO one was a punishment ye. everything aboutve that camera. So I think a lot of people believe KEH gets most of its inventory from like individuals doing trade ins, either coming in here to the retail space, which by the way, there is a retail space. Yeah, a cool retail space, right? We're at. Yeah. or they do the trade ins so they can buy a mail. But you guys also go around searching for gear to acquire Correct Yeah, we go across the country get into Canada. Calgary, Canada We're in Calgary in the hometown. We go across the country, do these buying events. We meet customers in person, check their gear out and purchase in person. We do our online mail and orders obviously, and then we have our great phone team and then a great virtual team. So you can actually meet with a person online as well and they can go ahead and show your camera there and interact with us. So we we're everywhere the cameras are. So like what's the breakdown then like of about how much of your intake comes from each of those sources. Hard to say, but I'd say probably fifty fifty. half of it's probably from web traffic and then the rest of it's us going out doing these buying events, you know, reaching out to customers, collections, that kind of thing. It's wild. I mean, our camera store, that camera store where we both started our photo careers bllacks photography starting, you know, camera store is the one that mattered. They started doing cage stuff years ago and I mean, it's like constant now like you guys come in and they' they' quarterly is is what's from the Canadian ity whereere do you get most of the cameras? Calgary. Is it Calgary? Calgary is the most weird The craziest place I've seen for cameras because there are more cameras there than I've seen in New York City or LA. That is wild. You guys have built the photo mech up there. This was great because you would think, Oh, Vancouver, Toronto You would have think eventually customers. This is like This is an oil well that you keep drawing from and it's endless. Where are all the cameras coming from? Obviously sold Just cameras that people deeply regret. Oh no, I guess that must be like what was I thinking? How did I let this shyter con me into buying this? Pen tax KS two SLR. Thank God KH is here quarterfully to take it off my hands So I think something else that I didn't really realize until we got here and looked around and really didn't process is like how much turnover of gear there actually is. So like how much gear do you take in in a month and how much goes out in a month? Because your inventory' got to be constantly cycling. It's a ship ofeseus, but in like fast forward. Yeah, so we've got over twenty thousand models that we purchase and sell repair actively E month it's in tens of thousands that we're getting in both through our tech lines to get evaluated, going into repair, to get a check there. And then same thing out, t tens of thousands of cameras every every single month. It's wild to me because like I could go check KEH's site every week and see different things Every day. Yeah. I forget the exact figure, but every day there are hundreds of cameras that we post to the website that get added in the inventory s It's well olded machine. It was really neat to see behind the scenes like the whole process of intake and evaluation. It doesn't seem like there's an output. It doesn't seem like there's like any other company that I can think of that would really be handling that much inventory constantly changing in one segment like this. maybe like international competitors to KA is just all I can think of. But in North America, that seems really unusual. Yeah. W With our repair capabilities and the manufacturer approval from them and you know forty five years of doing it, we've not only interacted with all sorts of customers. you have a lot of our legacy customers, you have a lot of new customers, employees as well. you have have employees that have been here thirty, forty years and you have someone that's been here for a year. So it really is kind of this big photo community here of You know, a lot of the I' say old guard up the new guard. I think you guys were in repair as well and you kind of saw the training that goes there. sameame with our tech line. You have a lot of experience here trying to to foster that new generation. That was cool to see. Yeah. like it's not just it's not just an outlet bringing stuff in and passing it off again, right? It's not it's it's you are actually training people with knowledge of like what cameras are, the series, all the different legacies, all the different lenses. Yeah, really We have to evaluate all of our cameras and when are selling, you know, a brand new Nikon and then a thirty year old Nikon, we have to ensure they all work the same And there's not one given person that's assigned to like, you're just film cameras.. You're just this. everybody does everything. And so people really get to learn a lot there What are the most common problems with cameras that come in that are like not working fully? you guys like what what breaks first? I would definitely say on film cameras, light seals if they haven't touched in years. You know, the philm gets crumbly, they're crumbling out oldld mechanical shutters, the grease will kind of gum up the gear. so they need some service. Digital cameras, typically it's focus issues. My lens is missing focus, it's not focusing. and then, you know, the unfortunate accidents of My screens' cracked. That's really a new, you know, that is probably the most common problem nowadays, especially with touchscreens and stuff. peopleeople are flipping their screens out a lot more. a tripod falls. if you have a fully articulating screen they gets damaged first. Yeah. So a lot of we there and then Recently, I'd say in the last five or six years with like YouTube and content creation, hot shoe repairs Oh I can to lotikes. Right. I've thrown a monitor and two microphones. Yeah just bend they just get bend and more. I mean, if you drop a camera, that's usually gonna break or crack too. Yeah, lens mounts, maybe ye. So what's the hardest thing to fix that comes up all the time? The hardest thing to fix, if you want a specific example, it's going to be something like a Rolliflex camera were these very old mechanical cameras that, you know, Rorll effX went out to business in the eighties, I think Yeah. So they haven't made parts for these things in so long So gathering enough repair parts to be able to repair, you know, a good example of one, that becomes the hardest problem is lot of the older stuff and just sourcing those parts because you can't just order them U, as far as, you know, new stuff That's easy. We have a great relationship with the manufacturers. You just order in the part and Pretty simple there That actually brings up something I don't think Enough people know is how robust of a repair facility you have here. L We talked to them yesterday and they're like, there's really nothing we would say we can't fix.. The only thing that might be a barrier is how expensive it eventually gets because like some of the parts It might be show busted, it might be cheaper to buy a brand new one. But some people might not want to do that. They might want to fix the camera they have. It is theoretically ossible to fix basically anything? Yeah, it's interesting too. It's like Obviously, there's lots of other companies, even small outfits that are doing repair stuff, right? And as far as like ordering parts from a manufacturer, a lot of people can do that. But I think you have, you know, when we were growing up, the repair person, you know, Calgary iss a good example, The repair person was like some individual person that was repairing cameras in their basement and they were known as the Hsleblad guy or the roleie, you know, And they would just collect parts for that camera, right? And it was very much like this tinkering kind of way of repairing things You guys obviously have a unique position in that you're bringing in so much stock that you have this really generous amount of parts and access to parts that maybe not a lot of outfits have, which is great. I mean, because as a photographer who loves old stuff, there's always going to be this feeling like Is this a finite resource? Are these cameras eventually going to disappear? That would be a sad day. So yeah, it it was interesting to see How many parts you guys keep in stock, how much access you have to use gear that you can repurpose. And it was pretty hopeful as far as, you know, I g in there kind of like, a, repairs, that must be sad. likeike you're not going to work on this camera in five years and like, no, actually, I think we're going to be just fine I think we can do this for a long, long time. So that was nice to see One other thing I think is kind of cool is if you're a photographer with a brick camera, you might just be like, oh, it's off to electronics recycling with it, but you could actually, even if you don't get some money for it, at least throwing it in to service here Parts of that are gonna to be used that somebody could get a usable camera at some point. Yeah So some photographers may be hesitant to purchase used gear for a variety of reasons whether they're worried about something being wrong with the equipment, or they don't know if it's going to last or if they generally just prefer buying something new. What could you tell a photographer on the fence about why they should consider Pion defefinitely tell them that pre owned is probably the best bang for buck you'll get and you get to not only have a wide breadth of choice for cameras that may not be made anymore or that are currently made, but you can get, you know DA fifty or five D Mark four that not many years ago was the top level this is what you should. And you know, magazine covers were printed with those cameras. There's no reason they can't be again. U especially when you buy through a retailer such as us, you can get it warranteed and checked and make sure that it's go there. With KH certified, all of our cameras are tested by our technicians. They're looked over and they all function the same. They're all warranteed as well for one hundred eighty days and it allows photographers to maybe test a camera they're unsure about try it out without really sinking in the full retail cost and then also then taking that hit on reselling it if they aren unappy with it. Yeah, I mean, I constantly butt up against that when I'm trying to buy a camera from someone in a back alley. I'm like, is this certified? What kind of warranty are we looking at? And they always just walk away. It It never really pans out. So this is a better method. Oh no, I do exclusively Jordn prefers to buy. S see, Calgary's got such a big used market R that you overflowing. The parking lot's already full of cars with people selling out the back of the trunk. So you've got to go to back alleys Yeah, the scariest places often have the best prices. but this is better lit too. I like that. Yeah, yeah, I trust this better. Two more questions. Um E waste It's such a major issue in the entire technology market. and photography is no exception. We just tal about. some people may just think they' just got toa throw the camera away I like it. I don't like it. Can you speak to KH's approach to reducing e waste and the environmental benefits of a circular photo gear economy? Absolutely. yeah.ith cameras and then all the accessory gears well, we try and either find another use for it or another h home for it, if you will. So with broken cameras, if a customer mails us in a camera, let's say,'s Grandpaul's old camera, we found it in the basement They don't know anything about this, but they don't want it sitting there. so they mail it to us. Um, And that's where we we tend to see a lot of people were tell them, hey, look, this camera isn't working We're happy to, you know, help you not put in an landfo. We can write for parts We'll we'll find a new home and a new life for it. Same thing goes for a lot of like the old camera bags, straps. a lot of these small accessory things that there's not really a huge market. Nobody wants a twenty year old camera bag. We'll try and do like in Atlanta here, we do a community yard sale. And we just have bins of these things. it's like, if you need something because ultimately it is going to be useful to someone, whether a beginner or someone just needs a spare bag cap strap, that kind of thing. It was cool to see that we went through the warehouse where yeah, it might be easy to assume like, oh, a lot of that stuff just goes right in the trash, you know, but it doesn't. Like you guys have collected all the lens caps, rear caps, back caps, like They're all functional pieces of equipment, there's no point just throwing them out. So that all gets repurposed or sold eventually or given or away. it was cool to see that. So This leads directly into my last question. The Belfast Photo Festival Oh, they, which is happening, I believe this week They have a basically set up what they they're not calling it a raid room, but it's a rage room where they're asking people to come in and just destroy cameras they consider obsolete or broken And when we saw this, we immediately thought like, but there's probably parts in there that are useful. So like what does seeing an event like a destroy room for cameras? How does that make, I mean, you personally, but how does that make KH feel? It hurts unless those are all hologas, Are they all holgas? They're not They're not all holgas. No in that case, it hurts knowing you be okay with a Holga rage room Maybe, you know, I think for a lot of cameras Especially older cameras that someone might say, Ohh, that's really old. Yeah. that's useless I don't know that we'll ever make those parts again So one random gear could be the difference between a camera staying in service for the next thirty, forty years or not. So it really hurts. I'd love to see those cameras either get used to keep other cameras in service or just be be serviced and used themselves. I'm going to start PenteX Ko one Ddgeball. That's where I'm going start. I'm see if that takes off. Like okay, let's let's I cannot say if this is true or not, but let's assume that they are going to then like electronically recycle all the mess. I'm sure that's that's the case. Yeah. I really hope they're not just gathering it all up and throwing it a landfill. but assuming the best. Yeah, But it's a lot of like old bust. I mean, they're showing a practica being destroyed, which is rough. But they're also showing like a lot of old digital k. There's's PCB clearly this is a canan rebel Yeah. Jordan would love to smash this right now, even though it's in perfect working shape. So I would like to disassemble it for parts that could be used in more useful cameras It is funny though, like you know, we've done we've had broken junk cameras and stuff like that where the lenses aren't working, they're flooded or whatever. And yeah, we've destroyed them on our show too in the past, like you know, for a gag or something like that. And I get that people do find that very difficult to deal with. it's like cameras are totemic, they're wshihippped in a lot of cases. They're beautiful designs And so yeah, I could see how that that's upsetting to people. I'd rather them see them made into lamps if they don't work. Yeah ye Yeah, that's a shame. All right, well, that's kind of was expecting that answer, but we're all on the same page. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for chatting about it. yeah. appree with us forosting. And thanks for having us in KH. Absolutely. Thank you everyone. All right, so a lot of great insight from Dinko. Thank you for being here on the podcast, but it's tech support time. So first it's what have you been up to and I'm going to use this a time to bring this onto the screen It's very last minute if you hadn't heard this yet, but if you're in Atlanta area You can come meet us and a beers and camera event tonight June fourth From six to nine PM the day this droed. Grove. Yeah I'm holding the sign right now. You could also see more information on this on our Instagram, also KEH's Instagram you want more information Here it is. I'm going gonna to hold it just a little bit longer, but seriously go to the Instagram if you want to find out more If you want to come by and say hello, you do need to sign up ahead of time, right? They need to sign up the event right link. That's correct. AI generated versions of us will be at this event. So sure Oh no,'ll be. We have to actually show up. Oh, dude Jordan, Yo, what have you been up to U So for quite a while One of my favorite shows has been unavailable in Canada. and that is Portlandia. and I'm back watching it again. and I am loving it. It is available on CBC Gem for free. onlynly requires a subscription. So that's what I've been up to. Great show. a free subscription free subscription in Canada. This does not impact you in any way. No it doesn't. You don't get to enjoy it. but CBC Jem is great. They got lots of great docs. Our friendly Vi Halwell has has a doc on future guest. Yeah absolutely. Andour Magic hours is on there. You do have to watch a lot of Canadian content advertisements. but yeah, this is great. There There's some sort of like farm outside of Calgary where your kids can like ride horses and stuff and that ad plays pretty consistently while I'm trying to enjoy my free content, but still recommend it. Is this why you were like leaping down my throat about not going and finding them becausecause they were. Yeah. So Fred Armson and Care Brownstein were in Portland. and with the Criterian van, so full of movies, physical copies of it, and they were hanging out. and I was like, Jaron, why are you not there? You didn't go down? And J This was like the night before we left But I'm like, that's no excuse.. And he's like, how am I supposed to find this van? I'm like, you're out of inch. You know, Portland is very large. Yeah, It just to drive around looking for it can't believe you watch the shows S seeing how you know your' Yeahah you're Portland resident. Yeah heard on it. It's it's so funny. Yeah. yeah, there's some good stuff on there Christy, anything to add to what it mo went up to? Have I been up to you Nothing, notothing I'm not doing anything fun arden Yeah, but that' yeah, but that's a necessity. Did't you take down a plant that was growing viciously in your yard? I did use the the little cutters, the Japanese cutter blades that you got for me, which it worked very well on my elderberry. They worked great on fingers too. Yes, yes, absolutely. I've not made any mistakes so far so I still have all my pinkies, but it would be good for that. No, I'm not doing anything fun. What have I been up We up to you. You had some Mexican the other night. All right, Chris. You know what you've been up to? answering tech support questions, right? Be we're to answer some tech support. the thing you've really wanted to do for a while. Yeahah, I just feel like the viewers put in the effort to like watch watch our show and they have questions and they send these questions in. So here we go. N never have time to answer them and I wantan to answer so much. So this is from KA Schwartz. It's a message or met a age a comment on YouTube. As a university professor, I'm interested to hear how T of you went from academic class leaders to YouTubers. I totally appreciate your content. I amm so pleased that you're doing what you're doing keen interest in what influenence your folks. I choose to pursue a certain career paths. I only teach PhD engineering and postdoctoral physicians, and I have noticed that many of these students still do not have a plan for their career path, even at this late stage of training average student age is around twenty five years old for the PhD students and over thirty years old for physicians. I understood my career path from the time that I was in junior high school, but that seems rare now. You are correct. That is rare these days. That is very rare. I would appreciate your comments on what influenced your career path all the best. Yeah. So this is applies to you because you referred to like top performing students who found their way here. Carly I was a poor performing student who stumbled my way here. So this is for you and Jaren What are you academic leaders Is that's very good Yeah. becausecause you were both like really good says you were a teacher as well. Yes. Yes. I'm going to be in the camp of your students of not knowing what I wanted to do as a career path. You know, I've told the story many times before, but you may have heard it. but I actually failed my ph photographic classes in university.. He's the Michael Jordan of photography they had the varsity team. I had zero interest in photography when I was university was going towards an English major, which is boring, in my opinion now in hindsight. And I was aimless. I actually had no idea what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a fighter pilot. That's what I wanted to do. I watched Top Gun and I was like French kissing and flying like jet planes. That looks awesome. That's what I wanted to do. And you know, maybe I should have done that, but No, photography came late. I kind of taught myself I was maybe nineteen. So yeah, I don't know.s I stumbled into it But I was pretty good in school. Well, I mean, the thing that's important to remember when you're talking about people our age is our job didn't exist. Like I did truly stumble into like YouTube cameraman was not a thing. I thought I was gonna to go into like film studies or documentary filmmaking, something like that So yeah, that's the tough thing when it's like, how did you guys know like just we really did just stumble into something that happened to be appearing simultaneously. I would say though, like, you know, you've always been interested in film production documentary. You could think of all of our shows as littleittle minini doocs, right? in a kind of sort in a way I mean, but you knew that you wanted to do video work and you're still to this day doing video work. Is right? I had zero concept of doing photography until Well lady. I did enjoy teaching and I think Being YouTube host in a lot of ways is akin to being a teacher. You know, you're performing, you're passing on knowledge, you have to keep people entertained. So I've always kind of found that a natural transition. I went to business school and I The knowledge I gained there, I was you could drop me into any business right and I can apply my knowledge to it. I just like what I do. I stumbled into being a journalist Uh, I I didn't go to school for it, but I understand all the things you need to to be a journalist. I learned from other people. I worked for other publications U that I definitely did stumble into because when I started doing stuff for F stoppers, it was because I was working for Photoflex at the time, and the guys who were running at Stopperers Patt and Lee asked for my opinion on a marketing and social media thing, which was my specialty at the time And I helped them. And because Photoflex was circling the drain, they decided to use that as a reason to fire me as a violation of my contract, which I didn't get paid for the work that I helped Patton Lee with. But anyway, I accepted. I didn't care. I was like, whatever, this place sucks anyway. And or Lee felt so bad that he felt like he got me fired. he was like, you could just come, you know work for me for a little while, write some articles for F stoppers, and that's how that happened. So I guess my key my advice is get fired and get lucky Wow. I feel like you were just asking people questions that made them uncomfortable and you're like, I'm gonna to chase this feeling for the rest of my life. Stay in school. Yeah I mean, you I would or don't. Stay in school. I definitely do. All right, next one, I don't know what happened. I will find their name as soon as I read this, but for some reason I didn't put their name in here but it's an email. Dear Petapixel team, I amm an active supporting petapixel member as well as a semi retired sports photographer. overver the years, I have shot extensively with the Canon R six, which I eventually sold and currently own both the R five and R three. Recently I've been seriously considering the R six Mark three, though I must admit your reiews of the camera still leave me with a few questions I understand the point being made regarding the lack of a stack sensor and how for many photographers outside of sports photography, it may not present a major issue. makes sense. However, I would be interested in hearing more discussion about action and movement photography in general, not just traditional sports. For example, how does the camera perform with subjects such as biking, fast moving wildlife, or panning shots where rolling shutter performance might or might not matter One observation I have have had while watching your otherwise excellent reviews is that sports and action photogphy often seem to receive only brief mention in passing. I completely understand that it is more specialized genre with a smaller audience compared to portrait travel or video shooters. Still, for those of us who do shoot sports and action, who generally value your insight and reviews, it would be greatly appreciated if you could dedicate a minute or two discussing real world action performance Eespecially when you rereiewing cameras in the R series lineup. I truly enjoy your reviews and appreciate everything you continue to do for the photography and video community. Thank you for your time and please keep doing what you do And yeah, There's another this might have been the same guy he mailed twice I actually think it was. This is AJ who said again, he had more information about it. Oh right. Yeah. So he just he continues on. he essentially says as I get older, I find myself wanting to lighten the load. The R three is fantastic but it's definitely heavy and bulky. I love the original R six and would love to grab the R six Mark three, but I'm worried about shooting motion in action in electronic mode, especiallyame yeah. So AJ, apologies. I did get you eventually. It's gam both your emails together And AG also asked the question in a second email, should I maybe consider the R five Mark I instead, which is actually a very capable sports and action camera. I can only speak to why do we not really talk about sports photography specifically on the show. It's because I'm not a sports photographer I play one on TV, but I don't know much about it. So it's like You know, the limited kind of sports we get to shoot, it's usually on an event like shooting sideline NFL was awesome and stuff, but I can't call myself a sports photographer And there's a particular skill set to doing that, which is difficult. But we can speak to rolling shutter, right? Jordan? Yeah. And shooting electronic shutter is becoming more and more popular. The R three is certainly good for that. Should he get an R six mark two? shouldould he get an R five mark two or R six mark three or R five mark two? I mean, the big thing there is if you can use the mechanical shutter, if you're okay with twelve frames per second, you're not going to have any issues with it. But if you're coming from an R three, then yeah, you're going to get way more distortion with the R six. And the reason we were so impressed is it's not a stacked sensor or partially stacked sensor, but it's still fairly competitive. But that doesn't mean it's fantastic. The R five two is, but there are also bigger files you're going to deal with and it's a more expensive body. That kind of makes sense right now So if you plan to use the electronic shutter consistently, then the R six three is going to be a step back for you. But if you're okay dropping to mechanical, then I think the auto fous performance is very similar to an R five two or an R one And you're going to get no distortions in the shot and a good hit rate. So that's how I would look at. Yeah. I bit of perspective, even a camera with a stacked sensor, so the the Sonny A seven R six, you can still get rolling shutter. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's the slowest stacked sensor. Cre. So that's not totally a fair comparison. y yeah, it's true. Yeah. In our limited experience shooting sports with the R five Mark two, it did a very good job, veryery respectable job in electronic shutter mode I still think you're going to you're going to see a little bit of rolling shutter in extreme sports situations Right? I recall still, yeah, you're gonna get a little bit of rolling shutter with things like thrown baseballs and golf, but still substantially less than a six. I guess it depends on how much it bothers you U Hal Snyder two ninety six What a comment? No, spelled with an SNY. D differenterent tenes. Snyder, not a Schneider., They're all the same to me. Yeah, they would be I have a question. I have a Z six and a Z seven first models that I never use. Yeah. I'm thinking of packaging them all up and sending them to KEH. My mistake was neither camera reflects what I wanted to do. I like to take street photos and I like to shoot landscape and astrophotography. I'm thinking I would be happier with an OM one and a GFX. Obviously to me A single system isn't going to cut it. Probably the GFX would only be used for wide field piggy backed on a telescope, and I'd really have a dedicated sensor on the scope. I'm thinking that what I should have is a micro four third setup and wait on the rest. Any thoughts? Again, this is kind of a tough one because we don't have the context for what kind of photography you love to do But yeah, landscape and astrophhotography. We do have neverever mind And street photos. should The GFX is not fantastic. to a telescope, I wasn't thinking it was po. actually read English. Oh, well, in that case, I mean yeah, like the GFX, of course, is well suited for landscape photography OM one Sure, that's not its strength, honestly, it's not its strength. I mean, you know if we go with a classic representation of landscape being the ability to print photos large, have high resolution. Good dynamic range. like this is not micro four, third, strong suit. Now, can you take beautiful landscapes with an OM one? Absolutely, you can. High res mode. Yeah, H res mode' great. you know, if you've got limited movement and stuff, I do love the tools like Not having to take a tripod all the time, being able to do long exposure computationally. These are all great skills. So yeah, but yeah, it depends on what you want to do. I guess if you had both systems, you'd be covered very nicely for landscape. The beauty of the OM system is going to be its compact nature small lens designs. and excellent glass U So would he be well served with that I don't know. I mean I love Micro four thirds. I probably still like the idea of full frame. If I was going like if someone said, you can only have one landscape camera, I'd probably want a high resolution full frame. for most situations to be honest, but if he has a GFX as well I guess you're covered on both ends. I'm sk gettingning nodding from Jordan so I'm gonna to move on. good. This is an email from Chris Law I recently received my new film on location You Coward shirt, Jordan, please model it, and decided to wear it for the first time on a shoot I was working last weekend. We had planned to shoot all Saturday outdoors for a runners's charity and that day was raining hard off and on, so the director and the DP said that my shirt was the inspiration they needed to not give up fighting the weather Here's the DP and me blocking the scene before Tallon arrived to put it on screen. He is indeed wearing the shirts. Looks like they're about to fight each other. I don't know. is scary. Some people think that this shirt is an attack. It is not. It is meant to inspire. It's an attack. I mean, yeah, it does call people cowards for sure for not going outdoors, but you know what? As a result of being outside and filming in those adverse conditions, you made a better There go. Yeah. So it works. Yeah It's just like it's just like shame based parenting versus nurturing based parenting. That's all it is r guys, thank you very much for your support. For those of you who are wondering, why aren't there more shirts on the shop right now? Well, there are a couple. But just be patient. M are coming. Oh. More on that soon Finally, lastly also shame our viewers. Are we going with shame based shirts from now on? Shame based. We should start a company called shame based shirts. Yeah, It's like a negative feedback cycle that we're working on. Last one is an email from Greg Pantalites. Hi Petapixel team. Recently I've giving some thought to digital cameras just closely mimic the look of film I wanted to see if I could identify any similarities between them to discern which common elements may be responsible for that quote film look. Unsurprisingly, it is not as simple as CCD versus SMS as the two most beloved sensors in the category share a different architecture. He left out Foveon These sensors being all should leave out Fuion. These sensors being the first gen sixteen point three megapixel Fujif F Xrans is found in the X per one, and the Lica Kodeak, eighteen megapixel CCD is found in the M nine and M nine monochrome I think there are two main factors contributing to film like appearance. One, these cameras designed to mimic the film look through their image pipelines, and two, both sensors have low megapixel count and like any anti alasing filter I think the second point is often overlooked, but strongly contributes to the film like appearance. The combination of a lower megapixel count and lack of an A filter provides a visual aesthetic immediately familiar to film shooters Namely, a lower overall image resolution, but one which maintains clarity and detail. I would like your thoughts on this Do you have any thoughts on this Have you thought about this that hard? N not really. The lack of N filter provides a visual setic nearly familiar to the shooters, namely a lower overall image resolution. I feel like the lack of an A filter would actually improve the resolution. The A filter drops the resolution Um but yeah I mean, In my opinion, I feel like the actual sensor you know inside the camera has a very limited effect on whether it's going have a filmic look or not. I'm not really I know like CCD sensors are really popular. People like rediscovering it. they've got this kind of look to them This has got an ancient CMA sensor. I still think it looks very generational to this time period. I don't really buy into that so much as I feel the way that you render Noise in your image on a digital sensor, the way that the profile they're using for color has a far more strong effect on the filmic look. Um I'm going to throw out a theory that the internet is gonna to hate. But I think because our cameras are so good at hanging onto shadow and highlight detail lately, people miss contontrast. And if you look at an old CCD, especially like an old CCD APSC or four third sensor U Your options were limited. They weren't going to hang ono that much. So you would have to process pretty contrasty images based on the limited DR you had and people are a little nostalgic for that. And if they go shoot like an old D seventy or something like that, they're like, this has a punch like film but really just really just like technically maybe a little inferior and you can get a very similar look if you're willing to like I'm the same way. I'm always like, let's hang on to as much information And I've really started to like just throwing away some of that detail on either end and getting a punchier look. Yeah, I mean, I guess if we're talking strictly out of camera Jpegs, you know, there's so many things that give film a filmic look, right? I mean, one is grain structure, one is dynamic range, one is color balance overall and color tone. and film has so much variety to it. it's really hard to to get that down. The only thing that I would say that I've definitively seen that has kind of given me an impression of whether it looks like film or not is grain structure So you know, on cameras that shoot black and white, there's certain companies, I feel that that render noise in a way that maybe looks more organic filmic. Like is really good for that. I think old Olympus cameras are really good for that U Panasonic, Martn cameras are good for that. Fujifilm to some degree, you know, I mean, Fujif Filmms again, trying to specifically ab look based off of a color profile But the way that you render noise and grain, I feel sometimes can look very digital or very filmic but I think it's so easy to do afterwards, I don't really worry about it anymore All right Closing this down Jordan, you you shared with me a thread from Dmitri make P photo T meet, Mack, sorry. to meet you M who's on threads and I also followed Dmitri And he shared this picture from Bark d. com. It's an ad they ran. It looks like on Facebook. And I'll put it on screen right now. And there's a lot wrong with this picture. It's pretty great. But Dmitri says the most hilarious thing about this AI ad isn't even the photograpphher is looking away from the couple. It's the four backup, seventy to two hundred millimeter lenses that every normal photographer would carry P a joke. Yeah, this image just struck me as hilarious, but it's funny because yeah, it's an advertisement for wedding services. L there's gota be a BTS of a photographer. Just license a photo. Just license a photo. But yeah, the seventy to two s is amazing. I could maybe say like, oh maybe one of those is the old seventy to three hundred L that was pretty similar to a sevenenty to two hundred, but that still gives you two backup seventy to two hundreds Uh, yeah Maybe this photogpher appreciates the f photographer iss not real. Okay. Maybe this artificial photographer appreciates the filmic look that the original seven thousand two hundred and two point A version giv swap Yeah. and then wants like the clarity and detail that the second version would maintain and then probably has an EF version with an adapter for a completely different to photograph the squirl not the cou drag different amounts of sandpaper on the front element to give it Yeah low contrast. The couple's not the couple's not kissing. They're just like hanging out and holding hands. like maybe there's other people they want to photograph so I don't know. Anyways. ourur light just went off for some reason, which is great because we are closing down the podcast. We do have one more thing to talk aboutage being like, you need to go home now. feel good story of the week. There we go. back. Excellent. G good story of the Wek. This should come as no surprise to anyone who watches Chris Nichols dunk system cameras under running water, but there's been a video that was shared that went viral with a photographer hosing down his dirty camera, which of course, can only be reallyally one camera company that Yes you can do this with. I believe this well, no we don't this this this what else can you do this with? This photographer goes on saafari, I I believe. really L it doesn't make lenses that look like this for one No, I mean, no, I mean the hell mount you could get that thing soggy. Go ahead. The photographer states that they are using OM system lenses abbsolutely. I mean, this is the one hundred fifty to four hundred, which is an awesome lens which we have also abused on a regular basis. So yeah, no, but I mean, a lot of brands allow you to hose down your lenses safely. Do they? Sure, sure. Can I please have the long list of companies that you can safely do this? mayaybe not a long list, but I mean, you know, it's not like he's Look at the photo. he's should never do this with any camera brand other than this one, maybe Lica and maybe Pentax. do not listen to them. That's a terrible idea It's a terrible idea. I'm just saying I'm professional wildlife lenses from all the brands generally speaking Connected to a camera and spraying it with a hose in your yard. That's a stupid idea. Anyways. I'm not I'm not saying it's a great idea. I'm just saying it's beyond the realm of possibility that your lens will. We could ask some of the service technicians if it's a good idea to hose down the camera like don't listen to him. Don't do this unless it's I'm not advocating you do this. I'm just saying like it's crazy. I'm saying look at the spray coming out of this He doesn't have the hose on full blast. It's a slope Is it the shower mode or the flat mode? Yeah. It's not like you spraying on the high spe speed stream. It's a hose that's got nothing on it. a lot of cameras a lot of cameras are designed to take things like rainfall and stuff like that. I mean,' say When you read the fine print when they say they're weather sealed, it says not guaranteed to repel all weather That's certainly not high pressure sprays. I mean, that's but I'm just just saying mostly. Anyways, I think it's funny Sorry to bring it up. N noody feels good anymore, Jaron. Great job Great job