The relationship between politicians and voters

The New States man . The spotlight of British politics is shining on Andy Burnham, and his long coup is underway, starting out with weeks of campaigning in the Makerfield by-election, where reform has put its faith in a local plumber as its candidate. But Wes Streeting is also jostling for a position in a potential leadership race, and Keir Starmer himself has to find a way to resume some semblance of government as usual. With Rachel Reeves facing a cost of living crisis due to hit the UK hard and angry drivers at the petrol pump. I'm joined by our editor in chief Tom McTag. Hi Tom. Hello. And our political editor, Alva Ray. Hello. And you've written a great cover story this week on what's going on both in number ten and the leadership camps. Can you first give us an insight into the atmosphere in number 10 now, because it might be quite strange. It is. It sounds very strange. Um, yeah. I mean, one person just described it to me as sort of very, very odd because things have gone back to what they described as semi-normal. Yeah. Last week was just such a dramatic week full of like high adrenaline. You can kind of imagine it. And there was this moment on Monday night. The more I talked to people about it it, the clearer is to me that there was a massive, massive wobble inside number ten. As those resignations started coming in, Keir Star mer really did s quite seriously think about whether he would need to resign the following day and so they came kind of so close to the end and it was just high stakes, high adrenaline, they weren't getting much sleep, and then now they've just sort of picked themselves up and carried on. And um so I think that the atmosphere is a kind of surreal one. But I mean maybe we'll come on to talk about Keir Starmer's mindset in all of their own. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to ask about that because you write in the piece that he is furious with colleagues who first of all confronted him and then briefed briefed that they had done that. And now they're obviously still sitting across from him at the cabinet table and they still have to work together in government. Must be quite tense. Well I mean it was just I don't know if you watched PMQs this week but Yeah I did. And he seemed kind of relaxed. I was so eagle eyed from the press gallery watching him go past Shabana Mahmoo. He just sort of glanced up at him and glanced back down. And so because she we know told him really quite forcefully that he needed to set up a timetable, but she's still his home secretary sitting around the cabinet table. So I think that there's a kind of a mood of defiance from Keir Starmer that's coming through really, really strongly. I mean we we're having these conversations on a loop, aren't we? That there are all these moments where like at the moment the new one is surely if ki if Andy Burnham actually won the Makerfield by election, surely Keir Starmer would stand aside at that point. And maybe that is true, maybe that's like the correct analysis. But at every other point of pressure where people have said, surely he can't withstand this, surely he'll set out a timetable, he's just come out swinging and kept going. So his new mind set is keep on fighting until you can fight no longer. He's got people like Steve Reed, the housing secretary, kinda pushing this, that it's not over till it's over, which is just true . And um so I think that there's a mixture of kind of Keir Starmer's personal personal defiance, which some people are quite scathing about. Um, his sort of personal determination to fight with the sense of responsibility and then this sort of wider feeling that he and a lot of cabinet ministers have, the f the the remaining loyal ones where they just really want to show that they're getting on with the job. Yeah, because I mean you have people in your piece, sources in your piece who are very scathing about the way that he's gone about this. This this idea that he wants to fight on for Yeah th there's a lot of that just n and and even sort of suggesting that this idea that Keir Starmer is a decent man is sort of ebbing away the longer he clings on to par, that's what his critics are saying. And they're really, really scathing about him now. But But I think that yeah, there there are the two layers to it. Like even Keir Starmer's allies don't really deny that he doesn't like being pushed around and that when p when when he feels like people are telling him what to do , he becomes a little bit more determined to fight on. But there's no real denying that, that that's sort of an an element of his character. But there is also the yeah, the thing that we've said on a loop that he just feels this sort of responsibility that he is seeing all the time the forecasts and projections and the contingency planning around the economic shock that is coming. We've already started to see that. And that just I think that there is a genuine feeling in number ten that if someone were to become a new prime minister were to come in over the summer, that that would be entering number ten on difficult mode, even more difficult than ever, like the first few decisions you'd have to make could end up being a bit like winter fuel because there would be no good options. And so I think that there is a real sense of him needing to sort of steer the country through this difficult time. But i it's a it's a really w it's a really, really odd one. I mean, Jonathan Reynolds, the chief whip, addressed the Parliamentary Labour party on Monday n ight and his his sort of closing remarks were like, by the way, Gar is you've got to remember that we're the government and whatever else is going on, we're still we're still getting on with governing. And because and like they they're're all kind of trying to maintain this illusion, but actually Kirstarmer is looking a bit like a lame duck in number ten. Yeah. And we know that the civil service sort of once it once it knows that you might not be there for a long time, ends up slowing down on decisions, you end up having a bit of stasis. And that's what Keir Starmer and his cabinet are kind of railing against right now, that they still want to get things done while he is the PM and not allow the fact that Andy Burnham is standing in this by election in maker field to just paralyse all of government. That's really interesting and we will talk about the cost of living measures that they're coming out with at the end of the podcast. Um but you know, one of his cabinet critics, no longer there, Westreating, who's stepped down but hasn't, you know, formally launched a leadership challenge yet. Um what's he saying? How's his campaign shaping up? Because you've been talking to his team as well. Mm, and since I wrote the piece, he has done his sort of resignation speech in the House of Commons. So um he and and actually this morning he has he has come out and said to Nick Robinson's podcast that he would bring in a wealth tax if he was prime minister. So he's really I think his critics say he's styling out defeat, that he didn't have the numbers, and he's just sort of decided if you're gonna do this you still have to do it properly and he's sort of putting in the best fight that he can but it's a sort of it's it's doomed to fail. I think that his his allies and he himself would say that he did have the numbers, he just didn't destabise the government and that he is finally unenc umon ed and he's finally unencumbered and able to say exactly what he thinks and because I think it has really bothered him over the past few months, even though he's made lots of interventions including in the New Statesmen. It has bothered him that people say, Well how would a wise streeting premiership be different to what Keir Starmer is already doing. Because I think where Streeting would say I haven't been able to say exactly what I would do differently. I can like nod at it and hint at it, but I can't do the whole hog policy prospectus when I am the health secretary in Keir Starmer's government. So we're now sort of seeing him start to outline some of those policy interventions. So I write in the column that he has l lots of lots more plans on this. I sort of much more fleshed out plan on economic growth and um on taking the fight to tech companies and tech policy. They're just like so whole swathes of the economy where he thinks, I mean, this is about his his sort of friend, Rachel Reeves, but he feels like the government has like not been on the pitch for some of these conversations. And then there's also I think wanting to intervene on things that will play quite well with Labour members, as well as speaking to sort of who he is as a as a politician. So we're all familiar with his backstory, g growing up in poverty, education being a big part of how he was lifted out of that. And so we're also expecting an intervention from him on homelessness and sort of support for homeless children. He has lots of kind of detailed thoughts on the impact of temporary accommodation on children and how it means that they slip through the crac ks. So those are just some of them. I think that they're hoping that he just spells out such compelling ideas and provokes, even we've already seen this on Brexit, that he just sort of provokes a big discussion with in the Labour Party, that then people reach a consensus that actually a big policy debate is overdue. The big argument from wise streeting allies is that Labour hasn't had a proper intellectual debate in about a dec ade, and that it would be good for whoever becomes prime minister next for the party to have that. We're gonna take a quick break. Back in a moment . There is this battle of ideas underway with these different papers from various Labour factions that have come out about how they should intervene in the economy. And actually the Labour Growth Group, more associated with the kind of things that West Treating wants to do, you know, he said we saw in those messages to Peter Mandelson that he released himself that he said we don't have a growth strategy. They're talking to, you know, those who are writing the Manchester Manchesterism programme for Andy Burnham. So there is a sort of like attempts at synthesis going on. Could we see, and I want to ask you about this phone call between the two men that you that you wrote about in your column, Alva, could we see a potential, you know, Burnham led government with Wes Streeting in a prominent role in it? Maybe he doesn't even run as a leadership candidate at all against him. And well that's the front page of the Times this morning. Sort of where's Streeting Allies saying that actually if Andy Burnham won in Makerfield, then where's actually you know, there would just be a coronation wherez wouldn't wouldn't challenge him. We would row in behind him. I think that this is a really interesting one around how how we define allies. Like where Streeting spokesman is really stridently denying this on the record and and you know, they're still sort of briefing all about their plans on a leadership race. I mean the biggest person who the like the b the person who has the biggest problem around Allies speaking for him is Andy Burnham . Where you know, I think for you know for us, allies means the person themselves or the people who have the authority to speak for them, like their comms ad, visers, or sort of very senior close political allies in that in that sense, um the traditional sense of ally. Um but I think that sometimes supporters are able to be quoted by other places as allies and then that and I think that's been why we we get sort of mixed messaging out of Andy Burnham's camp, for example. He's not even in West minster, but his allies speak for him in Parliament and then and then he ends up rowing back on some of it. So I think that this is I think this is more like supporters of West Streeting who, do think he would make a great Prime Minister, are reading the runes and saying to the Times, Yeah, obviously Wes wouldn't actually end up standing as Andy if there's a a whole consensus around him. And then Wes Streeting himself is like guys that is so unhelpful. Like I'm trying to maximize I'm trying to like maximize my position for the biggest possible government job and and you know I still think I'm maybe within a bit of a shot of being PM if if Andy implodes or something. So it I think some of this is all about positioning. Right. And I'm sure that you wouldn't expect anything different from a capable politician that you know you have to maximize your chances of becoming leader to get a senior job, even though the senior job is maybe what's more likely. Yeah, and I get the sense and you know, you you're in Westminster far more than I am, but I get the sense that there is actually quite a lot of enthusiasm for this battle of ideas now. Like it's almost like guys you should have done this a few years ago. You can't have a battle of ideas in government, can you? I mean I I've been watching on I uh uh you do get the sense of enthusiasm, but you also get the sense of like liberation, I think you've both put it with with Keir Starmer in Prime Minister's Questions. Almost reminds me a little bit of sort of Rushisunak, you know, post-defeat. That sense that you you s start to see that version of them with a bit of the stress that's come away. What once they've kind of accepted, I mean I don't know if he has accepted or not, uh his fate, but he certainly looks a bit more free and a bit more and the and that character that you saw was attractive, wasn't it? It was quite funny, it was quite light. Quite self-deprecating. Yeah, yeah. And that and and that actually I mean again we're in this weird territory now where it isn't over. It's not like with Rishi Sunak or with Theresa May when they've suffered a defeat and they have to carry on doing their responsibilities for a bit and suddenly everyone starts to like them because they're they they look calmer and sort of uh um less or more at ease with the world. This is Keir Starmer who's still Prime Minister, who's still running a government, who hasn't been challenged formally yet by anyone, and we don't even know if Andy Burnham's going to win. So we don't know what what's going to happen here. Um and as uh as Alpha was saying, you know, he's being advised to to keep going. I remember reading that line actually in your in your column, Alpha, and thinking of the Churchill line, you know, keep buggering on. Like this is this is something that can work. You know. Um I think there's um is it is it Machiavelli or somebody like that as one of those guys back then that says if you just keep playing for time, you don't know what will happen. If you if you just push, don't give up too early, because things can change and things can turn to your advantage. That is possible. We shouldn't rule that out, you know, over the next few months. Yeah, and the and that's a a thing I mentioned in the column. I mean, I think it's to be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism, but there is a fleeting hope in number ten that this lead ership fever burns itself out as as one person described it, that actually people will find it so distasteful seeing Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting sort of slugging it out on the airwaves. That by the time the Makerfield by election is over there will be no appetite for it anymore and that Keir Starmer by just sort of getting on with a day job, focusing on delivery, he'll manage he'll he'll just still be there when when that has burned itself out and and actually the leadership appetite will have gone because we do sort of assume that Andy Burnham will launch a leadership challenge immediately. But actually on that, like his timings aren't super clear. And so Yeah. You know, would he would he want to be in Parliament Parliament for a few months? How much time will Keir Starmer actually have? I think it's you know, he's playing a losing hand, but I think that's maybe it's maybe the smartest strategy he has. But he he he hasn't just kind of kept buggering on. What was the what was the sentence that uh from s um in your column? Keep on fighting until you can fight for no more. But he he did give way on the NEC, which was which is a major thing to do. Now maybe he couldn't have fought on. Maybe he he he was just accepting defeat, you know, as a sort of tactical retreat. But it is uh the major change that's happened, isn't it? You know, from that from that previous uh moment was, it in January, where he was rejected overwhelmingly? And lots of people felt that that wouldn't change. But the kind of emotion of the of of the local election results changed everything. You know, and the politics. You know, it's the sort of politics imposed itself onto what looked like an impossible situation to a hurdle for him to bypass. But suddenly it just changed. I did speak to a cabinet minister this week who who was sort of saying s you know similar things actually and I he wasn't a a formal ally of uh of the project He was saying that there's this strange atmosphere where they you he's he's just got to keep going. We don't know what's going to happen. We don't really know how to handle this situation in uh in Makerfield. We don't know what to do with it. It's a confusing moment for everybody because it is a challenge to the Prime Minister that isn't a challenge that is not a formal one. So what do we do? And they thought that there would be a kind of Burnham coronation when he when he comes in and that Wes would have to sort of accept the political reality. But again, they he he he didn't know. None of us do. Well well I'm glad you mentioned that because Alvert, just before we move on to the next section, you have this great detail in your piece about a phone a phone call that happened between Wes Streeting and Andy Burnham. Can you give us an insight into what they spoke about? This was on the eve of Wes the day Wes Streeting resigned. Yes, the day West Streeting resigned and just R as after Josh Simons had announced that he would be vac be vacating his seat for Andy Burnham. So just so the the day where it all came together, like a seismic day for both of those men. And they had this phone call. And I think that I mean, I'm told that they sort of wished each other well, reflected on like how how it had been a big day for both of them I think uh basically like being in agreement that the past few days had been really necessary, sort of reflecting on Labour's predicament, how bad the election results were, how something had hap had to pen. Maybe the reality was much stronger than that and more scathing about Keir Starmer. I haven't been told that but I sort of would imagine that. Um sort of so sort of commiserating on that and then I think that Wes Streeting said he was looking forward to a battle of ideas. He also just said that he and all his supporters would be up in Makerfield campaigning for him. Yes. Um he West Streeting said that he's looking forward to a battle of ideas. I'm told that Andy Burnham agreed , but maybe that's just what you say when you're put on the spot. Because in a conversation you know it's how politicians So we're always talking about a battle of ideas. So So because debates. Yes. Because I think Robust debates. Because even though we've talked about how there's you know there's a bit of enthusiasm in the Labour Party for ideas and having that that conversation, I think that there's also a huge amount of nerves around it from loads of different camps in all different directions. I think lots of people around Andy Burnham sort of worry about the party descending into civil war and that looking really ugly. But like one cabinet minister said to me months ago, like, are we seriously gonna let the Labour membership choose the next Prime Minister? And I think which is basically the private view of loads of Labour politicians, sorry to offend Labour members who are listening, but I think that they just think that in the same way that there was a risk with the Tory membership choosing the next Prime Minister and choosing someone who was less uh, you know, in keeping with the mood of the country as a whole . I think that they they worry about the membership making the wrong choice, but also the im the effect that a contest would have on actually pulling people in into positions that are not so helpful. I mean that this is sort of the fascinating thing around Andy Burnham's challenge at the moment. Someone who's quite close to Kirstarmer was talking about this with me and they were saying about how Andy Burnham is kind of fighting two contests with two different electorates at the same time. Like he has the he has people in Makerfield watching him, but he also has the Labour Party membership. And obviously, there's this hope that if he can just cater to the maker field electorate that the Labour membership grow in behind him but that's not guaranteed and I think you know we know from loads of their positions like whether you're pro-Lave or pro Romaine they're just diametric bas And it's not guaranteed that Andy Burnham, even if he were likely to win the Labour membership, whatever position he takes on immigration or the EU, it's it's no guarantee that he won't still fight it like he has to win them over because don't forget that he's he's lost two of these elections before. So he's got that muscle memory. Um Well I think there's something really, really important in what Alva just said there. 'Cause I I would add even like a third fight that he's having to have at this time, which is to reassure the markets. And and so you have this um strange process where West Streeting on the right of the party who is uh almost certainly critical of some of the early decisions that his friend Rachel Reeves took on taxation and things like that, which uh I think the Blairite wing, many of the Blair rights uh on that wing of the party would think of as sort of anti-competitive and had made it harder to achieve the growth that they said they wanted. He is being pulled left in this contest. So all of the announcements that he's made, wealth taxes and so on, are to appeal to Labour members. So he is being pulled towards Rachel Reeves and uh you know Keir Starmer position to a softer position, the soft left position. Andy Burnham is being pulled towards a kind of Shabana uh position and a more Rachel Reeves position on f on fiscal rules. So he said he would accept fiscal rules. I think he said he would accept uh Shabana Mahmood's immigration reforms. So I I think we're we're sort of coalescing. So we're a battle of ideas actually means we're arriving at something approaching the status quo that already exists. I think Stephen Bush might might have made a similar point in his um in the F T this morning. But I and I think it's a it it's a uh it's a good one. I also wonder if there's a sort of another really important element here that if Andy Burnham is kind of challenging um Keir Starmer from the left effectively, um his seat of the one that he has, you know, eventually chosen to to fight Makerfield. I wonder if that is a really important factor in British politics going forward that the Prime Minister would represent that seat if he was to win it and then become Prime Minister. Because it almost necessarily drags him into a certain position, into a certain type of politics that he's going to have to represent. You know, that seat is not safe. Whether he wins it this time, um well, clearly it's not if he doesn't win it, but if he wins it this time, it's still a kind of potential swing seat, it's still a potential reform seat , what will he have to do as Prime Minister to make sure that he maintains that seat? Isn't not a kind of interesting drag? I mean I guess there's definitely the impact that Makerfield could have on the psychology of Andy Burn ham and and how aware he is of the politics in his own seat. But I guess the thing is that it's partly not a safe seat because there are n no safe Labour seats right now and a re reform is a threat to half the cabinet. And you think of people in similar seats , they haven't conducted themselves in Labour politics differently as a result, like Bridget Phillipson has, you know, in in her Sunderland seat doesn't you know, she made a pro EU case, even though she had a leave voting seat, she doesn't come across as a particularly reform-ingfac politician as a result. Yvette Cooper, John Healy, Ed Miliband, they all face losing their seats to reform at the next election, but it's not changed the way they navigate their politics. I mean, maybe John Healy we've talked about him with. Lisa Nandi is a is a exception in the sense that she's almost like reminds them about the leave vote. Yeah, exactly. She's like And she's in Wigan, right? Yeah, and sh yeah and and yeah, like Queen of Wig gins like talks about that a lot and and makes that a huge part of her political identity. But I guess what I mean is that it's sort of a question mark over whether you whether you become so identified with your seat and the politics there, or whether you become someone a bit more like Bridget Phillipson who is prepared to have the have the debate with her voters. They have they have reelected her, even though she took a different position on on Europe to them and Ed Miliband, you know, is in Doncaster but makes his strident case for net zero and so on. So I think it's not it's just not essential that Andy Branham should be affected that way, but it'll be interesting interesting to see what it does to him. It's also an opportunity as well as a challenge. Like I've got a piece that's about to come out on this really interesting research about how the UK has two depriv ations. So there's one that is unemployment, you know, deprivation of education opportunities. And that tracks with reform. So those places in those places reform outperforms. And then there's income deprivation and housing poverty and inequality. And that those places are turning more towards the greens. So we've got these two deprivations. And actually it's it's an opportunity for a politician to say, okay, you know, economic security is the big thing here. So how do we come up with a prospectus that benefits both these types of voters, basically? And Andy Burnham, you know, could be well placed to do that, even if his seat, you know, is in a place which differs from your classic 'cause you know, most most of the voters that Labour are losing are to the Greens, not to reform. So even if it differs from from that demographic. So it's a challenge, but it's also an opportunity to talk more in terms of economic security and inequality and But I think we've made we've I think we may have talked about this uh uh on this podcast before. But you know, we're talking about securonomics. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But and we're talking about a battle of ideas. This was the original idea. Uh you know, this was uh this was Rachel Reeves's idea. It was a good idea. And it was well i it was coherent, right? There was a coherence to it and it and it's sort of and a power, I think. I think if you look at what are the things that we're debating now, food prices and the cost of petrol and all of uh of utilities, there is a sense th of national control over essentials to provide a an an element of security, national security and personal security. That I think is a part of the at least a kind of column or a strand of uh Rachel Reeves' original argument. It's just that when you get into government, you just get smashed, don't you, by events. And it's very hard to, I think, keep that sense of direction. But the the there were core arguments there. And in a sense I wonder I mean I think this is this is a challenge to Andy Burnham. Is he going to just kind of return to an original version of what Stamerism or Reevesism was? Well just an anecdote on that. I remember before the election someone was focus grouping this secur y security framing and it was Josh Simons and I went to the focus group with him as he held it and you know, he was exploring what security actually meant to sort of ordinary voters. Some of them thought it was all about just like crime and anti social behaviour and he was trying to figure out messaging that would, you know, get beyond that. Um and he's going to play a pivotal role in Andy Burnham's team, presumab That lens to not just um econom ics, um, but to all of the things that i the ordinary person would think of when they think of security. They immediately think of the security of their home or the security of their streets or the security of their shops when they see shoplifting going on, or of the country itself. You know and there is there is an argument and I think it's been made for a while now. I think by John Healy would make this argument. Um and I think probably did to you, I can't remember all the lines he gave to you now, but you know, there was that sense that the state can be used to rearm the country given what is happening in the world, given the fact that you know America is pulling out and you have uh a war happening on the European continent, that Britain can rearm and it can use the state spending to re-indust it reindustrialize parts of the country. Now that is a kind of that that that is a central part I think of what John Healy is pushing. It's clearly uh very popular. I think you have you then have to you know ask sort of the intellectual question like, does it work? You know, if you go to Barrow where a lot of money is being spent, is Barrow a thriving place that is not uh tempted to go reform, you know, I d I don't think there's much evidence of that. Um also the security of the of the of the the state itself, you know the union. There's a lot of people I think John Bu would be in this camp who would argue that we have uh the sort of shrinking of the of the British Army and old British institutions has left the Union more fragile than it once was. Whereas if you have a British Army that is of a sizeable nature and has bases in Scotland , for instance. That is a tangible sign of the British state that no longer exists. Let's look at the ground campaigns for reform and Burnham in the seat at the moment. Reform's announced its candid ate since we last recorded. Robert Kenyon, a local plumber. Plumbers seem to seem to be the theme of by-elections lately. Already we're starting to see, you know, his ex account has had been deleted and obviously some of the posts that he he had made have been dug up, you know, saying that the far right doesn't really exist . Asian men are walking around Birmingham assaulting people en masse. King Charles should open Birming ham Palace up to asylum seekers. I think that was when he was calling for unity after the riots. I don't think there's sort of a slam dunk here. I mean, these are the type type of things that you would hear from reform supporters online or not um and reform aren't going to um investigate him or anything. Um but it's an interesting I mean his campaign video I thought was quite good. He's sort of in the car and he's he's talking about how Makerfield would just be a stepping stone for Andy Burnham, whereas for him it's his home. So I don't think it's a it's necessarily a bad type of candidate to choose. And actually, I spoke to you, Tom, last time we recorded, um, I I'd been speaking to someone from Reform who knows the area well. Um, and they were saying we've got to choose someone local, you know, it can't be a Matt Goodwin repeat. Um and they've obviously gone down that path and and this source was was quite pleased with that. Um but I still think there is a bit of a a um they're still trying to throw things and see what sticks. Like the idea of a carpet bagger, Andy Burnham being a carpet bagger is is I think not the best line given that he, you know, don't his children go to school there and he uses the same asda there and he he grew up near there. Um so that's a tough line to choose, especially as Nigel Farage sort of tried for so many seats before he he entered Parliament. And you can already see that people have sort of reinvented the the reform attacks on Andy Burnham with Nigel Farage and all the seats that he has. Oh with a suitcase with all the seats on it. So it doesn't Yeah, for that reason it maybe doesn't quite work. But I do think it's I just think that under the pressure of this campaign, like the big unknown and re reform and Labour say this is just sort of what is the Andy Burnham effect and how does that change or could it be changed over the course of the campaign? There was a really interesting like word cloud thing from Luke Trill at Moore in Common Um asking people to describe Andy Burnham. Have you seen this? And I haven't seen this. The the number one word to describe Andy Burnham was ambitious. Which is I thought you were going to say northern. Oh I saw that comedically northernically northern. Anyway sorry I interpreted that So I I and then a lot of the a lot of the surrounding words were quite positive, but yeah, arrogant and ambitious were also featured, and ambitious was the prevailing one. And that's interesting. Clearly that's where reform's got this framing from then you know, the stepping stone and the I but I guess it's a question of whether ambition is inherently a turn off for voters. I mean those work clouds are generally dreadful for all politicians. I mean the main I mean or the sort of neutral but tending towards negative like Rishi Sunak was rich for Starmer most of his time. Keir Starmer has often been weak, um which isn't great for a leader. And so ambitious is maybe fine, but it's sort of how reform and labo Labour navigate that basically because Andy Burnham is trying to reassure voters in Makerfield that he will still be a genuinely local politician and represent their interests, even if he goes on to bigger and better things. And actually I think that there's a sort of argument that he's making implicitly, like, wouldn't it be cool to be represented by the Prime Minister? Yeah. Yeah. And um so but there's that but then reform clearly trying to tap into it the other way, sort of suggesting that h he's being an opportunist. And I I I just am interested in how that plays over the coming weeks, like just tiny things, him being doorstepped in his shorts, going out for a run, pe you know, so much stuff online, which is obviously not representative of the country. So much stuff online about him, you know, performing that and he'd never gone for a run before in his life, and he invited a TV camera so and but actually, you know, he was just doorstepped in a quite normal way and clearly his clearly someone intervened to get him to wear longer shorts the next time. He went on and run. But I you know, I don't think that that was some sort of genius media play, oh I'm gonna suddenly take up running for the cameras and but you know there's a there's a real kind of like voter scepticism even though he's one of the country's most popular politicians he's still facing more hostility all his critics ev i even in the Labour Party talk about how he's been playing politics on easy I'm interested in that too. Yeah. Um I chatted again to this same re reform source after the candidate was announ ced and they were sort of saying that this Brexit line they probably, you know, wouldn't go so so hard on that because views towards the EU referendum and Brexit have changed over time, even in places like Make of They thought more of a vulnerability would be these things that they can dig up about Andy Burnham, like uh his views on trans rights, for example. So he called for self-ID. I think he called it a minority view that people think there should be women only toilets and and you know was quite forthright in his support for for trans women. They thought and that that was on the front page of the mail as well and they thought that could be in a way more of an attack line for reform than his stance on the European Union. And immigration. And immigration. It's interesting in itself, isn't it, what you've just picked out that they're not that Brexit and the EU is something that they don't think is an Well we've seen that they haven't t wanted to talk about it for you know a couple of years now really. It shows a in one sense it shows the professionalism of reform. I think so. They're obviously getting data that is that is informing these decisions. They're obviously sort of uh catering their attack line. They just it's just a hard work for them here, I think, in Makerfield. They can't really accuse him of being a carpet bagger. They can't really accuse him of being uh just going around because of uh Nigel Farage. And that point that Alva made about ambition, Burnham can clearly use that to say who's gonna get you more for this constituency? A b a backbench MP or the Prime Minister. And I kind of think people in that part of the Northwest know that they will have a champion for the Northwest in Andy Burnham, should he be Prime Minister. They kind of it's implicit. It's it's obvious. He talk he's talked about it for uh for years. I think the challenge for Burnham will be to sort of lean into public perception of him. He'll have to sort of he'll have to accept that people do think of him in this kind of ambitious, slightly arrogant way. You hear it, I think, from ordinary people that think there is an arrogance about as a mayor of Manchester, challenging the sitting prime minister and just seeking to sort of effectively take over and what did you call it the in the the long coup or the coup the yeah is it it because that's how people see it, right? Because it's true. What's happening is is remarkable. Um and he is that is going to taint his reputation for a lot of people who do think that it is destabil izing. W what were you saying at the beginning about West Streeting, saying he didn't you ever said he didn't want to destabilise the government? I mean resigning from the government is a quite a destabil izing act. You know, the West reating and Andy Burnham are clearly destabilizing uh the government. They're saying that they have to do so because the government is inherently desta unstable and it is going to go down to defeat. And I think Burnham's greatest kind of offer to the country is essentially that I am best placed to defeat reform. And I think that sort of sense of, yes, I am ambitious, but yes, I can do that. That has to be his his offer. And it is sort of borne out at the moment at least in the polling that I've seen that should a Burnham um should Burnham lead the Labour Party on at the moment, he obviously he he the Labour Party's poll ratings um go up. Yes. But he has clearly got these flaws of being a politician that's been around for fifteen, twenty years. You know, Alva speaks to you know new Labour figures who are still in Westminster who remember very different Andy Burnham. Uh as do many people in the lobby. And so, you know I, we were we're going to sort of Burnham is going to be tested in this scrutiny that he's never really faced before. He's faced it obviously in these leadership elections that he's gone through, but this is a different order of magnitude. And you will sort of see how he responds. There is a there is a sort of scenario where he gets touchy about the jokes, you know, that are directed at him about the the idea that he changes position in the wind and all these kind of things, that he's ambitious or he's arrogant. He has to, I think, lean into some of those and accept it. But we'll, you know, we'll see how he does. We're going to take another quick break now. Remember, you can listen to the news statesman podcast ad-free by downloading the New Statesman app. It's available on iOS and Android. Links to it are in the show notes. On this week's episode of The Exchange, we have our editor Tom McTag speaking at the Charleston Festival, looking at the UK's relationship with Europe ten years after the Brexit referendum. Subscribe to the New Statesman today and get your first six weeks for only six pounds. Go to NewStatesman.com forward slash six weeks to subscribe today. We'll be back after this . Welcome back to the politics show from the New Statesman. Talking of destabilising the government. Um they are trying to come up with a plan to uh sort of cushion us from the c cost of living crisis which is coming down the line. Um Rachel Reeves making some announcements today. Um keeping the five P fuel duty cut, that was the cut that was made in twenty twenty two, that Labour was going to um reverse, but they've decided to keep it in place. Um free bus travel for children up uh aged up to fifteen over August to try and make the summer holidays a bit easier for families. And cutting tariffs on some supermarket foods as well. Um and probably the most controversial, um they've delayed some some of the Russian sanctions that they were planning, um, on jet fuel and diesel in particular. So Britain will carry on importing jet fuel and diesel um not not refined well refined from Russia but coming importing from third countries um and that made some headlines yesterday. Is the idea that we're just going to have sort of some spin for this idea of a feel-good summer, or it you know, is there genuine horror at what's what's to come? Well, I think that that that that position on Russian oil and gas shows the the actualally fundament difficulty that the government is in, and we're starting to see the first hints of what people in number 10 are talking about when they say who on earth would want to be prime minister right now. You'd have to own some really, really unpopular decisions. And there was also this um great report from the FT that the Treasury was asking supermarkets to s to fix prices on some goods in return for some loosening some other sort of regul ations on supermarkets. And that leaked the supermarkets were sort of appalled by the idea. I think that the Treasury had been hoping to announce those price caps as part of this package today and Yeah Andrew Bailey's come out against it as well. Yeah, instead they've had this quite awkward argument. So they've got a fight with people like Andrew Bailey and supermarket bosses on the one hand . And then they've also, I think, horrified other European capitals with the position on Russian oil and gas. I mean they've kind of I think uh they're changing their position on that in in real time. the By time it comes out, I think maybe it'll be a little bit different. So we might not get too much into that, but definitely I think there's a real sense that that has been really clumsily done, yeah, really, really awkward, bad for the relationship with Zelensky. They think they were hoping he would make a visit to London later this week and that might not be happening anymore. Wow, okay. And so um because the EU are going ahead with those those specific sanctions. So it's Britain who's decided to delay them. And when I mean you have these questions around what does Keir Starmer want his legacy to be and like how does he define himself? He's been saying since January while he's been fighting for his political life , that his number one priority is the cost of living. But in real ity, a bit like Boris Johnson, probably one of the things he'll be given most credit for will be his position on Ukraine and the way he 's navigated geopolitics. So I think this happening in the final what are probably the final months of his of his premiership is quite tricky. I mean on the on the broader cost of living question, we've talked before about the big questions around energy price caps and how the government intervenes. I think there's still work being done on that, but they feel like they can wait a little longer Yeah, because there's nothing there's no sort of like energy bill subsidies or anything like that. No. And so they're kind of still working on those longer term things. I mean I think it's just like very good, unequivocally unequivocally good politics to give free bus travel to kids between five and fifteen for the summer. Um, you know, it's like it's limited, it's small for eye, it's on some bus routes. Parents will still have to pay. It but I think that there's sort of you you can't really knock a policy like that just to sort of show that you understand the pressures that families are facing. Yeah. I think it's interesting the expanding role of the state in politics and whether we're moving into uh a new era in a in a sense, just without really thinking about it. I mean there's that great Duncan Weldon book about British economic policy just muddling through. Like we don't ever take really great strategic decisions. We just kind of amble our way through crises and then something emerges. Um and I y you can kind of see that here, you know , if you think go even through the Tory years, we've got this uh increased role for the state in terms of provision of childcare, uh provision of um old age care, uh obviously healthcare i i in general. But but also now in terms of ensuring a price on how much you pay for basic utilities, how much perhaps you even pay for food, an increasing number of the workforce has its wage set by the state each each year because the minimum wage has grown. And we haven't produced enough uh jobs that pay beyond the living wage. So, you know, again you have this increasing role for the state. And that's not I'm not saying that that's a a bad thing at all, it's just it's a reality of our of our life, you know, um free school meals, bus passes, all the rest. This is a um we talk about a kind of um fiscal crisis and we talk about unsustainable welfare that people talk about. But we you know we don't talk about the elements of that, you know, the pension elements uh on the on the welfare But also these added things that were were were taking. So you kind of you hear these noises about a certain di change in direction in politics. But actually often the current underneath is in a is in a sort of different direction. And I think you can see that just in sort almost like the instincts of the government that that emerge during a crisis like this. Yeah, I think that's right. And um someone who didn't seem convinced by the message was a van driver at the petrol pump where he was announcing some of these things. Um he heckled her, seemed to be a Nigel Farage fan. Um he had England flags on his van and he said are you gonna arrest me for having these flags? Um and she h hit back at him. It was almost like she couldn't help herself, it wasn't it. She said, you know, one great thing I think she said, you know, a great thing about this country is is is manners and so you're not very British. Um it's just one of those classic moments, isn't it, where a politician, usually a politician who's who's on the rocks a bit, collides with with the public and you just see, I don't know, the tens ions of a nation play out in a two-second clip. And I think fair play to her. I mean I don't know if you've seen the full clip. Uh-huh. But then but then afterwards she's good afterwards. She says, you can put that on the telly. And then and then she does the distinctive Rachel Reeves laugh. The really, really sincere one that people know privately but don't see as much publicly. I mean I d I think that people in public life from all parties, Nigel Farage included, just have such a difficult time that that was really rude. Like he, you know, he was like horribly swearing at her. And you know, I think just fair play to her, just calling it out. I think most people watching it won't have actually thought good on him sticking it, they will have just seen a human being sort of being verbally abused, which is what that was. So I think fair play to her. I know that but I think you have to then be consistent about it that you also don't want to see Nigel Farage being verbally abused by different people uh Well Nigel Farage wanted to buy this guy a drink and Zia Youssef said, let's give him a peerage. So they were kind of cheering him on. Yeah. Yeah. I I agree with you though, I think the public quite likes to see a politician hit back sometimes because it's human. Um and it's kind of a more natural response than just to stand there sort of like a statue in silence, maybe. I mean I remember the anecdote that Alistair Campbell has told, I think before, about how you do you remember when John Prescott punched the guy who threw an egg at him? And Alistair Campbell and Tony Baird, they were elsewhere in the country and they were in their sort of ministerial car and they were like, Oh, we're gonna have to we're gonna have to um you know, we're gonna have to sack him. He's gonna have to resign. And both the driver and the special branch guy in the front seats turned around at the same time and just went, You what? And they were like, Oh, okay. The country would think it was weird if he had to, you know, had to resign. And so they they decided not to do that. Um so I think sometimes I mean I can't remember who it was who said this, but when Starmer the prot ester jumped on stage at a conference uh party conference and covered Starmer in glitter, if he'd just hit him back then his poll ratings would have gone massively wrestled him. Nigel Farage is really inconsistent on this. As you just say, the way reform you know, Nigel Farage reposted it and said, Let me I wanna buy this man a drink and dear Yusuf has also sort of joked about giving that man a peerage. But Nigel Farage talks about having really serious security concerns. It is his justification for taking that five million pound gift. And I don't think you can have it both ways. Like I don't think the Nigel Farage should be subject to verbal abuse or should have things thrown at him. I think like the the the climate for all politicians is really really difficult and it will just harm the kind of people that we have going into public life. It's like a miserable profession. I'm just overwhelmed by that whenever I talk to MPs from any party. It's really, really daunting. And I think that it would be much better even though it's not going to happen if there was just a more united front from politicians across the board to just say it's that you know actually just go and have a polite word with her and say say what's angering you rather than doing it in that way. Like there is such disillusionment with politics that isn't to be sniffed at and you know, a lot of that just comes from the fundamental realities that we're a poorer country than we used to be, people are less well off, they're really struggling and it's come it's sort of manifesting in ways like that. But so you know, I s I feel some sympathy with the man swearing at Rachel Reese, but I also just think you should be told that that's not how we do things and Rachel Reese shouldn't subjected to that. So I think good on her. I had a uh a a sort of lofty idea about this. There's probably uh I'm talking rubbish. But I I I thought um uh listeners I think should go and find this essay in the uh Sinking Giggling into the Sea. Great essay, yeah. Yeah. It's it's a wonderful essay. Um and it and it talks about this climate of mockery around politicians. And it sort of traces it back to some of the original satire around politicians and the sort of the the the loss of the age of deference to wards them and and the argument of the piece is that this kind of culmin ates in Have I Got News for You and Boris Johnson? And that if you create a world where it's no longer um it's no longer a niche thing or a dangerous thing to mock a politician. It's just what everybody does. Everyone mocks and disdains politicians. And so the the result of that is either aggressive brittle characters like Donald Trump or Nigel Farage, or in this argument's case, somebody who turns the whole culture on its head in Boris Johnson and does the mocking himself and does it better. And you can't laugh at Boris Johnson because he is trying to make you laugh all the time. And it's a sort of l a lack of seriousness. But the culture itself has produced the politicians that we have. And I I I've often thought about that and I've I've thought about writing an essay about the relationship between the politician and the voter and the sort of sense of dependence. Some politicians have talked to me about this actually, the sense that as you the longer you are a politician, that sense that you are completely dependent on these people who who hold you in contempt. And talk to you in such a rude manner or you know uh abuse you online abuse you online, abuse you in in person and uh you know in these constituency meetings. And the how you have to hold yourself as a politician in these moments and then you have to be suffer you have to suffer a kind of humiliation like Rachel did, being shouted at in you know on camera. And you have to constantly go through this and what it does to your psychology and your relationship with the voters. And some some of the politicians I've spoken to have said that honestly, some of them will then develop a a sort of a hatred for those for those voters because it the kind of the the loathing goes both ways. Creates a your own sort of psychological reaction. And it's clearly un you know unhealthy. It's a clearly unhe an un unhealthy thing that doesn't get talked about very often. But it's there. And I I agree. I think the politicians who react in a very human way or the the rest of us watch it and can see a a natural reaction and kind of respect it. And when we see them sort of cowering or not knowing what to do, we we kind of lose a bit of respect. Mm-hmm. And and that's the I I think it's it's so hard for a politician to know how to navigate that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a vicious cycle 'cause obviously what all voters think is that politicians do have a sort of disdain for them or a condescension towards them. And that might come out, you know. That's the that's the tricky . Anyway. Thank you so much. That was a good lofty note to end on. If you ever get heckled, Tom, you'd be like, Well, there's this essay in the LRP Do you think that would work? You've been listening to the politics show from the New Statesman with me, Anous Shekellian and my colleagues Alva Ray and Tom McTague. This episode was produced by Bob Lem