The Future of Late Night Formats

The World Cup is back and Fotall Weekly is going daily Fr the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems, join me, Max Rushton and our expert panel every day of the tournament. World Cup daily, listen on Spotify now and watcho the full episodes on YouTube This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? that's new. They can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a fifty page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online makes sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check Responssees setup required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus David. We got to start. talking about Thunder versus Spurs Game one of the Western confonference finals because it was amazing We got that memo from Bill, too. Okay, great. let's. I did. Lead with basketball. Yeah. Viictor Weminyama, Wimby to his friends Vic, apparently to his friends, just listening to Chris Paul on Pat McAVee show. He calls him Vic. Vic. Vic had forty one points, twenty four rebounds and three blocks It's hard to have A moment in sports now that seems like genuine history By way of example, did you know there was a game seven in the NHL last night that was going on at the same time the basketball game was going on Only from again, watching today's Pat McAfee show, going. Did you know that game went into OT? It was incredibly exciting as well That's so. That felt like genuine history withith a signature moment Wemby or Vic pulling up. From thirty feet, twenty eight feet Tie the game with twenty seven seconds left in the first OT I felt like one of those where were you moments. And the only thing I could you find in our lifetimes that felt the same way was when Shaq really started blowing up in the postseason for the first time And there was this collective sense of Oh my god How will anybody ever stop this guy Yeah He will never lose another game. Yeah, he was just twice as big as the other guys, except for like Pat Ewing, you know, like he was so much bigger than everybody else. It's so much stronger. And with Wembi it's like He's even taller He can dribble the ball of the court. He can pull up from twenty eight feet. Apparently And just watching the game last night, I just texted them. I was like, that just felt like history game felt important. It was a great game on its own. anything it goes into Wou OT like that and has amazing performances. We'll take it, but that just felt like that will be significant when we talk about NBA history someday I mean, it's hard to imagine, I mean and listen, the sky's the limit, but it's hard to imagine Wy having a better game than that in this series. I guess he could easily have some comparable games But if they go on to win this game and there's not a bigger game than this one certainly fits the bill Right? When you look back at these playoffs, this could certainly be the game you remember. Um Although, you know, when the Surs beat the beat the underunder two times earlier in the season, it felt like that too, right? And we and we kind of forget about it. But it did but this is certainly like I think that the most Aside from winning the championship And if he wins the championship, then all of a sudden Like as much as I hate the Championship watch, the ring watchatch, you know thing. Yeah As much as I just kind of bored by that, that will just have to be the organizing narrative of the NBA for the next twenty years. If they if Windby wins one this year, right just like like watching him try to catch up to the greats. Um, in terms of ring count But u But yeah, I mean and it's it's just You know, he wasn't really in the NVP conversation this year What a game like last night does is like just institute him. Like he'll be he's automatically like the points leader for NVP next season. Because you announce your, you know, you announce your arrival by like demolishing and play a team like OKC with the current MVP in the playoffs And he's very aware of that. He was asked about that after the game in his press conference Somebody said you know, SGA won the MVP and you're playing against him. and you didn't win Are you very aware of that? And his response was everything you just said. Yeah. this is great. What a great answer. I acknowledge that thought K kind of an annoying tick that has crept into announcing over the last few years Webby pulls up from twenty eight feet. He hits a shot And the color analyst goes. U you I understand Almost forgive it. in a moment that's so amazing like that Folks, we are not at a buffal of wild wings calling a game. you could barely hear Mike Torico After that play This is where we just lay out We think about Chris Coins were at to Rico's other partner after Caleb Williams hit that crazy pass in the playoffs and he just was silent and then you just heard him cackling a few seconds later Yeah. sometometimes The best move, Jess Uplay it. It's so amazing that we underplay I was thinking, I think you move to Fort Worth after this guy was big figure in town, but there was a guy who used to be the Mavericks PA man named Kevin McCarthy. And yes, I think I know I think I know this or tellell me though He was like the Frasier crane of Dallas Fortworth radio. veryery mellow host. Very down here which made him different than all the other P in in the Lague g like that was whenever like a huge star would come to Dallas. and would do something amazing He would just have this great K A man Monitone re' go Michael Jordan . Kobbe Bryan I found myself doing that during the game last night every time Wimby hit a shot Victor Wiman Yama Victor women Yama Not a trace of excitement in my voice. A weird moment Thunder clawback to tie the game in regulation. Yeah. They've been behind almost all night Alice Carusa was the hero. So regulation ends and the the NBC cameraman follows Caruso back to the Thunder bench and he pushes away the camera. Like he's a ninety celebrity being hounded by the paparazzi. Yeah Sir, this game is on television part of the deal. they weren't even making secret plans on the whiteboard. You just I don't want that camera around me And then someone else from the Thunder pushed it away too after that What was going on there The NBC broadcast I think we have to start with the fact that the sound was trash last night for huge parts of the game which is a huge downgrade. I look forward to understanding the technical explanation there I kept looking up and being like what is wrong with my television? Th I looked at Twitter and something was wrong with everybody's television. Yeah Beyond that I loved how clean and crisp that broadcast is. We don't have photos of NBA teams from nineteen seventy two going into break. We just got some good music. We're going to commercial. Don't get backan. No, I don't think they will. That game is produced by a guy named Frank DeGrace, who was Iron Eagles producer on Nets Games at Yes also shares comomic sensibility with I. So you notice the moment when I forget which spurse player it was goes crashing into the front row And the guy's holding a corona, the fan. And he's kind of squeezing the corona and beer's going everywhere and Toriko goes, Oh, was that spillage? Let's get a replay That's the Degrrace Eagle School of Broadcast comedy We're going to take a replay of the spillage, but then we're right back on task Because producing is essentially having an intuitive understanding of what people want to see, what they need to see, and just go in there Mhm And that game last night, A few exceptions here and there. there were a couple replays I was like, I don, I didn't want tona see that replay again By and large was very, very good at just just it felt like Everybody was on point I did want to ask you about Jamal Crawford who's a third man in the three man team? Yes. What do we make of him as an announcer so far Okay ye, I mean, I understand Why it's a question He's the In some ways like the polar opposite of the Troy Ykman model of just like he feels like it feels like a football game and Troy's on there, right? He's there's nothing really conventional about about Crawford's delivery Um But his insights, I think are really good. And I kind of like the fact I liked that he's that he brings a sort of totally different vibe to the game Um I will say like every game that I've heard him call, it jumps out almost immediately just like wa, who is that Oh, must be. U, but but I think I kind of think he's good He's in the just talking phase of Announcerdom? Yeah When guys get off the quarter off the field, they don't know how to do announcer speak. so they actually just talk Yeah and say insightful things and it's really interesting Mhm My worry with him is how much of a chance he's going to get to talk. Because Reggie is a volume shooter As announcer, Mike Torico iss a volume shooter. sure because he wants to get to facts and research and stuff that other announcers won't get to He's going to do a lot of analysis himself. Yeah, I mean, Turiko's almost Toriko is like the quintessential one man booth guy. Like he would be totally happy just to be doing this on radio with nobody else there And you can actually hear him when one he pulls up from twenty eight feet. Exactly. Because nobody go We did have some Jaw droppingly bad questions for Wimby after the game. You knowew we were going here. All right. Oh my goodness This gentleman has just had the game of his life game of the season and we ask him How did you continue to show up and make the right play What is What would be an interesting answer to that question What's the best possible answer to a question like this Yeah, I have no idea. And it got me thinking David got me thinking that I know how to fix this I know how to fix the post game interview Call this the Curtis maneuver Let's say that You are a sideline reporter ere's what you do You walk out of the court you bring portable monitor You use that portable monitor to sh. You're selling this like bringing a portable monitor is some is like like is a feat. Like it's very straightforward now. J like here's my iPad.. Yeah. You can bring an iPad. but it monitors what they use at football games. Go byy radio shhack, buy some kind of device. Yeah You walk out and you use this portable monitor to show Wemby play of the game And then you ask him What were you thinking when this happens. It's a terrible question, but guess what It's interesting because everything he says In response will be news Yes It will be used to tell the story of the game And more importantly, it pulls us out of the world of how big was this win? questions that no player has any idea how to deal with and brings us down to practical things Yes Ttally agree. And whenin we got asked about that in the post game and he was like You know what was going through my mind? I was like slow down Like he was thinking about process, slowdown Jack this up, through go through your motions, shoot it like you'd shoot it. and it did. it worked M You would just at least get something Be the post game is so hard. it has botched so many times. I just want information about the most interesting thing that happened during the game I agree. It's not unimpant. I mean, I don't think the Silland reporters are going to go away, but you talk about this a lot and it's not nothing because there's this is the sort of thing that like I'm sure when they have the Absolutely inane conversations about banning reporters from locker rooms or whatever. likeike this is like and also, why do we have to answer their stupid questions after every game? Nobody cares about that, you know, like its it's a drop in the bucket but it's real Um Yeah, I totally agree. You I mean, unless they lied, you know, but even that would be good content if Wimby was like, dude cooach called the old barn door. I waved him off, you knowatever, you know. I would want to hear that lie Yeah, exactly.. But yeah, I think that' that's a fantastic idea. It's such a better use of that time than they do now Totally. And when he gets into the post game, the writers are going to ask those kind of questions. So if I have Wimby exclusively on my air, I want to ask him right now Let's just ask those questions right now. get them out of the way Do you think' ever do you think it factors in? When you're in if you were there on the sideline,re you're the new sideline reporter for PCa And then like were thring it to Ban Curtis with Victor Wimiyama after the game. U do you think you would be put off by the height difference? be like I got to ask a simple question because he's not going to be able to get it if I go me from down five ten and change. Yeah. You think that's part of the calculus? Like I'm gonna ask the dumbest and most benign question possible because Otherwise it might just get lost in the vast airspace between us. and related question I'm not sure it would help, but wouldn't be a hilarious gimmick if they had a seven five sideline reporter specifically to talk to Wimby? How many people out there could you find Forget their training as television professionals, but how many people could you find that are that tall? I don't know, but it would be even if it was a talentless seven five person. it would just just to have them walk up. maybe seven three and lifts, you know, you can make it work Yeah That would be just incredibly funny. What What if that would be? What if the seven hundredot three guy' holding a monitor It says what was going through your mind when you It's a very shot. Exactly. I'm with it. I'm with it. He could just like be wearing the monitor at that size. That's great. All right, coming up with the press box, the reining in of Barry Weiss. Dad books are dying If you're watching on social media real We'll talk controversies about Sham Shirania and Breakfast tacos. best story you'll read this week about Star Wars plus The New York Times is Jason Zinneman joins me to talk about Stephen Colbert's last show. Kight's l rights. And What's happening to comedy in the age of streaming All that on the press box, a part of the riger Podcast Network. Hello media consumers Brian Curtis David Shmumaker, producers Isaiah Blakey and John Romer with you. David, we've got another Berry Wise story. It wouldn't be an episode of the Press Box without it. Let's go Should I do my oops all buried joke again and hope that you no sell the hell out of it like last week Fart of the gimmick now This is from Dylan Byers and Puck sources with knowledge of the conversations that's inside CBS and Paramount said that Berry Wise would likely see day to day control Over the evening newews, CBS mornings and sixty Minutes. to a more experienced as yet unnamed executive. shifting her focus to the newews division's digital growth while maintaining broad editorial influence across all the companies's platforms So essentially, he's reporting that there have at least been conversations about bringing somebody else in Mhm to do day to day TV. that she has so far shown herself unable to manage basasically to do her job, right? I mean, it's certainly Tffic was part of the You know job before, but not what she was tasked with really bothering with. Um Yeah, it is pretty bizarre. It's pretty shocking that they that the leash was this short. Um, Not that I disagree with it at all. and it was just kind of surprising in general. And also that They're basically replacing her And certainly I mean, yes, I'm sure she'll have some level of influence beyond what this new person has But replacing her for the with on the TV projects without somebody named. L it seems like that's a pretty big part of the equation You know, like is it's going to be have is going to have to be someone that's like Spatico with her or is this going to be the most qualified person from the CBS newews division that will forever be Buddting heads potentially with Barry Weiss. I mean, it' It makes it feel rash that that they announced it without a replacement without a higher name Maybe they're just trying to mayaybe they're trying to insulate the new hire from whatever backlash might come their way One n name Dylan floats in his column, which I encourage you to read a puck is CNN CEO Mark Thompson. M a guy who was mark for elimination soon as Paramount acquired CNN. It's like, oh, he's not gonna to last Well what if he does and you bring him over to do TV stuff And Barry can do as yet unspecified editorial things M steer the ship It's fascinating and to your reason of why? Conversations I'm told, and this is Buyer's writing, reflect Paramount leadeership's newfound acceptance that Barry was given too broad a mandate for someone without previous experience in television as well as some irritation with the ceaseless barrage of negative press I find that last part interesting. Yeah Be I always When you hire Barry Weiss, you're essentially sticking your middle finger up at correct. The media establishment. Y. So you're expecting the media establishment to be mad, to be angry, to find things to get pissed off about that she does, right to put every decision of hers under the microscope Sure. But I'm always like At some point, everybody being mad all the time has to mad. Publicity is not nothing for CBS News You know, this is not I mean, it's not I mean, listen, she's a particular very specific case. obviously the timing, the geopolitical situation at the time that just and certainly the politics of it were were all I mean, it was a very, it was fraught in any number of ways But like Almost anybody that has a name you would recognize put into that position would be getting this much attention. You know, and would probably getting relatively, I mean, I don't know the same degree of negativity in the news stories or not sllanted pieces. It's just covering the bad stuff, but like We don't know who the news directors are byy and large at news networks. if they put if they put You know I'm just try I'm trying to think if they I mean like who's just a person in the news that you would recognize, You know, I mean, if they elevated Jesse Waters to the news director, you know, whatever, then like he would become a person of interest even if he was never on TV, you know, or if they or if they just put, you know, a random other celebrity, you know, you're like a writer like whatever the Barry Weiss like that person would get a lot of attention and would probably get be something of a headache to the bosses because it's not attention they'd be getting otherwise U But the idea that they were unprepared for it whichich certainly makes more sense than the then the you know I'm a billionaire. G it flipping the double bird to the world in some sense Um But it's pretty stunning You know? I mean, this is the This is the what what the with the consonservatives used to always twar the liberals with, you know, like get out of your get out of your like, you know, silo Northeastern bubble Yeahah whatever. Your ivory tower. Yeah, exactly. I this is exactly what that is. Imagine being in a bubble such that you think that Barry Weiss is universally beloved Yeah, a bubble where you think the free press took over the world. That's a great point. Yeahah And I think that's part it just comes back to this idea of like I billionaire enjoy the free press. This flatters my point of view Therefore, I think everybody enjoys the free press. and that the person who created the free press will know how to fix CBS news Yes By the way, it's probably not accidental. every I mean, everybody that he knows probably does read the free press even either by choice or because they realize their billionaire friend slash boss is reading it every day. you know, I mean, it's it's pretty easy to get that misconception when you're That sort of person Um, But yeah, that's exactly it Oh, I know a person in the in news media who is You know, seems to be getting everything right, Barry Wise, you know, and It's not like he has any experience that would lead him to understand that the job might be too big for her at the time U But it is weird that nobody thought about that on the way in Interesting story from Ben Mullen in the New York Times I wanted to get in here. I'll read you his lead The author of a nonfiction book the effects of artificial intelligence on truth acknowledged on Monday that he had included numerous made up or misattributed quotes concocted by AI So the book is about the effects of AI on truth M The book included made up or misattributed quotes concocted by AI. Yeah. The author, Steven Rosenbaum, whose book, The Future of Truth was released this month to Great fanfare incorporated more than half dozen misattributed or fake quotes in sections the book reviewed by New Yorkimes Um This is not Werner Herzog'sure the future of Truth, which just came out two years ago U, That was his book Yeah, he had a he had a book. I would like to I would like to examine the future of truth Yeah talkal about Hulhogan now and Yes. I'm just try just I was just searching for it to see who publish this book tryry to get somelaim. I have a guess, but let me what that is. Let me give you another bookstory why you think about that Dad books are dying Oh no, are they? They are at least according to the Wall Street Journal's Pamela Paul, there's a name I haven't heard in a while Jeffrey A. Trachtenberg Uh hu Dad books in this case refers to serious nonfiction, the authors, right such as A little known chapter of World War twoI The sweeping narrative of a shipwreck pererhaps the latest presidential biography I love how we've identified all the go tos there Little known chapter World War two, That's Ben McIntyre sweeping narrative of a shipwreck. that's David Gran Latest presidential biography that's' on share now S I get that right? The only you're missing the only one you're missing is golf Hm There is a sort of universality to golf memoirs. even more so when I was working in bookstores than football or basketball or anything. It was just like that those are on the father's Day tables. veryy prominent Remember my theory of golf books? Yeah The Father's Day gift for the Dad, you hardly know Yeah N tie Yeah, I think that's right. And but I think that ties into the bigger issue here in a certain way too, But you continue because we'll come we'll circle back. Sales of nonfiction print titles, the journal notes were down nearly eight percent through may ninth this year And sales of books about politics and current affairs were down nineteen percent The trend couldn't be clearer said Jonathan Carp book executive, this is a sea change and people should wake up and realize we're living in a new world M So who do you thinks to blame for people not reading serious nonfiction slash dead books Well in so much as it relates to the dads because I don't want to get out over my skis here. Skiing books not as big for dads. U As it relates to the dads, I think the point that you made is actually not it's actually insufficient. I think books in general are the presents that you get for the dad you don't know Certainly, there were a lot of dads who asked for specific books my whole childhood. It was just like, you know, I got the name of a book every Christmas and birthday, you know, and I went out and found it for them Um Or I would buying books I didn't know, you know, I just guesses as I got old But but I think I think by and large now There's just a giant market of shit online for presents for people who you don't know. You know, it's just like the entire internet is like every today you will be you will see if you keep your eyes open, five ads that would be the perfect thing to buy for a father you don't see very often You know, I mean, it's just a And those and so there's no reason to go to the bookstores anymore goingo to the bookstores is obviously less of a thing than it was where you would go and see a giant table at Berns and Noble that was had father's Day at the top and you would be like, o, my dad must one. You know, So yeah, I think that's a problem. But also I think in general, to go to the specifics of the kinds of books you were talking about, I mean you're talking about politics and current events That to me is not, I mean, yes, I think theres those subjects probably skew male, but like Those are subjects that should just be that should that you would assume would have bottomed out already Right? I mean, it's one thing to talk if we're talking about military history you know But if we're talking about literally like a current events book, like Who buys those except to like review them or because you're a fan of the politician, you know, or like whatever, you know, it's That stuff has been totally swallowed by twenty four hour news in the internet and Um And yeah, I mean, like I said, I mean, there's a huge market for the fanbases of TV show hosts and stuff like that. but I think just in general When you look at a lot of a lot of the subjects that we talk about here, military history and listen, there are some incredible military historians out there But I have worked at places where they would just literally like spotlight a book buy a book about fucking Aircraft carriers or whatever, submarines, submarines were a huge one U. kind of like that it didn't wasn't attached to a big author that like, you know, didn't that wouldn't necessarily be a huge book, but like they did it to fill a slot for Father's Day. You know, whatever and they made it out to be a big book Um And I think that there's a lot of that with sports. I mean, listen, we know we know one or two great sports editors in the book world, you know, like whatever, but it's not like That's where all the great sports thinking and editing comes from I think a lot of sports books, m military books Um A lot of the stuff that falls into this category are like, They almost became wrote in the publishing world, L you would publish them without regardless of whether or not you had a great passion for it for the project or the subject. because you wanted to get those dad buys And I think that that's just You know, there's no room for bad bets anymore You know, I just I just think the publishing world is contracting too much What you're saying almost sounds like a movie studio. We need an action movie to come out on this week in the summer and we need a Rom comom or a family comedy to come out on this week later in the fall. it doesn't really matter what they are It just I mean It would be great if your thriller was written by James Patterson, but if it's not, like there's a bunch of thrillers out on submission right now, let's pick one The journal also blames podcasts to understand are everybody's villain, but especially Think about nonfiction for a while You know, the kinds of things that you would turn to and say, I'm going to read a three hundred page book Have a nice, satisfying read about this particular subject Maybe you turn to a history podcast. the bones of that of such books clean And you listen to it while you're doing your dishes and going on a run or Maybe just hear the autor talkal for forty five minutes Yeah, watch a YouTube video. And you're like I'm all good I a in my it. You're right, That's about it. I was just thinking this the other day, totally separate from this becausecause, you know, Spotify has has audio books And uh, and You know, I was never a big audiobooks guy until You know, podcast sort of led me back in. And I listen to a good number of books. You know, I know a lot of people listen to books. it can seem just sort of exhausting before you even hit play. you know, it's just like it's not a podcast. It's not going to be antic. It's not going to be anything unexpected. It's just going to be You know sixteen hours of me listening to this very talented read or, read this book And I wondered I'm sure there's some incredible like copyright general like IP issues that would make this impossible. Why don't they do like, whyy don't they bring back readers' digest just for the audio format Like, wouldn't you much rather listen to the The You know four hour version of Patrick Gragon Keeve's new book than the complete version if you were gonna go audio. Wait, so we're moving away from the physical book to the audio book, and then we're judging that to also be inconvenient. so we're shortening it. Or or actually do it as a podcast series, right? My new book is an eight episode series from the Ringer You know, but it's, but just the but You're right that a lot of these books are getting crowded out by alternatives. And a lot of that has to do with, I mean, you said podcasts, but it has to do with just media converging, right? A podcast is a TV show is a movie, is a whatever And It's not like there's no degree of difficulty. there's no extra ask to go from Like if you're looking at the book, if you're looking at the book on Amazon on your phone, you can just like in two seconds flip to that interview that you were talking about or that podcast. It's all right there There's no reason to do this. And what people it's free Yeah having to pay fifteen bucks or thirty bucks. This is like all the people that never read a book review coming home to roost. L like if people that had access to book reviews as, you know, long form book revs they'd be like, all right, I'm good. I'm good on this. How many times did you were I read the New York review of each other's books review and you were just like, I think that's all I need to see, you know, or the New Yorker review where they spend three quarters of a piece, not admitting that it's not original work, you know, where they're just like restating the contents of the book before they mention the book Those things are great. You know, we love those pieces and part of the great thing is you're like, great, I don't have to read that book. You know? You read the books of the authors who you truly love, but it's just like a as a means of of conveying information. It does seem like there's a lot of alternatives outside of the exhaustive book. C I tell you how anti audiob book I am? Yes, please. I just It's been forever since I've even tried to listen to one, but when I did I found I was passively listening like I listened to every podcast Anyw missing important stuff. I just half paying attention. I just not paying attention to it at all And I read I've read now my youngest child is older than your youngest child? Sure, whichich is the answer to have you read a book lately Like that is that is a key key piece of advation. You talking You're talking about parenting advice books, I assume, right? Youo How to raise a couple of well rounded kids. No, I think it was The Grifters was the last book I read on paper last week I just Not to your son No Oh myself. Yeah Hey kids, want to want to know about an interesting relationship with a parent No but What is the one with the dude's eyes staring at you? What is the Jim Thompson? It's not population twelve eighty. There's one of them that's just like so off the rails, like gruesome and misogynistic And I alm handed it to my wife a while back. She because she really got into one of the Gifters one of his books. and I was like, oh, well, not that one. Here's some other ones, you know like, But yeah, glad.'t read donon't read that to your son. Yeah, I just only I only want to read on paper. And I will will I will read on I will read on my phone sometimes, you know, at night, especially at night if it's like I need to read something I'm not really paying attention to for like twenty more minutes so I fall asleep. Yeah. I just Yeah, I mean, listen, I never lik the digital book idea. I think I'm sure it started when I was doing research for something and you just, you're like, oh, I can get this book immediately on my iPad. and you start reading it about twenty minutes in and you're like, oh, I'm doing that thing that people talk about. I'm reading a digital book An electronic book, if you will, a book say Listen, I agree. I don't love audioobooks either and more so because I think that there's other audio forms that are preferable. Um But there's certain audioobooks that are just Herfing that are just great. If you get a good I mean, the readers are a huge part of it. If you find an interesting book Some of that like David David Grnd book, the David Grnd's new book you haven't read read by a proro that matches the book and you have a cross country road trip ahead of you. Like it's a great's a it's a perfect thing to do See the group aspect of it is interesting to me. Yeah, we're all in the car. My daughter listens to more audioobooks than any human being who has everalked face the urs? because She's just listening Harry Potter books and over again. That's like the soundtrack of our house. Oh If we were listening to something in the car T would be interesting to me That'd be interesting. Maybe hard to hit all four of you with the same book, but if you can at least get the adults on the same page. Maybe the Grifters will try next time time. Who do you think reads the Grifters? Do you think that's a celebrity I'm guessing an actor Yeah. there's a lot of like actor you heard of twenty five years ago. that is a person doing audioobooks now Let's see, narrated by Barbara Rosenblatt. N not some thereer work I swear the the fudge books are read by somebody semi famous. A lot of the children's books are for sure And I'm always like, why do I know that voice? And then it turns out to be an actor 's Susan Soranda reading Good Night mooon. Yeah That'd be interesting. That's real What? Yeah. If you find a narrated version of Good Nnight Moon on YouTube, that's Susan Sarandon's the one doing that A couple of controversies to hit with you. James Talorico. Senate candidate who just got a giant gift from Donald Trump, who endorsed Ken Paxa today He was in Austin with Barack Obama and they went to get some Breakfast Tacos And Talor Rico had what was apparently a controversial order. Totato, egg and cheese Mhm Now is Texans do we consider that to be a controversial taco order first can ask a question because I literally don't know this And you from where you were situated. Was this an actual He doesn't know how to eat a pizza style like issue or was it just the disingenuous provocateurs that were bringing it up Well, one was Greg Abbott, so I'm going to go with disingenuous provocateur. There's a thing about Talo Rico being a vegetarian Oh ye, there's I saw that. There's rumor that he's secretly The New York Times N notedad. so maybe that's part of it Yeah. I I wanted to order I wanted to know whether it was flour or corn By the way, that was more important to me. Well, that's certainly the biggest take. That's the biggest decision that is the most That is the most interesting decision you will make at the taco stand, unless you're ordering goat or, you know, like what something that's and even that, I think that would be less memorable than someomeone going real hard for corn or flour tortillas for that matter. Most taca places that I go to don't have the option My experience with having places with both, it's like chain Mexican restaurants, not so much like taco spots, but There weren't bunch of taco spots like there are now when we were kids. No. This was not an industry. Breakfast tacos existed, but it was not It was not a breakfast taco infrastructure. like had you go to fucinking Waburger to get a breakfast taco and we. Uh But anyway, to answer your questions I am not I am the I am not a gatekeeper on this shit. Like if you want your if you you can have whatever you want on there if they sell it. And hell, if you grew up in T if you're a real Texan And you would know, it doesn't even matter if they sell it because you know you have like a ranch dressing bottle in your bag, right that you bring into every restaurant. Like somewhere in every full restaurant, someone has imported ranch dressing. I guarantee it. so it doesn't ike can hardly I really found a hard time getting worked up about it. but I must say I am a huge breakfast taco fan. and I agree with what I believe was the New York the last quote in the New York Times piece, which was, who doesn't love breakfast for lunch or breakfast for dinner? It's such a f treat. Delious. It's so good. Now listen If what you said, I want you to show me the best Tacos in Austin I guarantee I would not take you for breakfast tacos because I would assume that the expectation was different than that If you go like we do, go to a pinks taco or whatever, you go to like a big taco spot. And it's your first time there and you're experiencing it. I mean, dude, I'm going, you know, we're going to get like twelve different tacos and and one of them is one hundred percent going to be a potato taco You know, when you see a potato taco on the menu, you're like, oh, They must know something because That's it because you know, potato taco could be pretty boring, you know, whatever, But like you just assume if they have it up there, it's going to be great I don't know. And I think Well, I mean, what is the argument that that's not a real taco? like are we talking about in Mexican or text Mex or what is that like What are we what scale are like the or is Greg Abbott judging this on? Well if I may gatekeep for a second, the scale is that doesn't taste like anything egg cheese and potatoes. Now are you just covering that baby drenching it in salsa That's an interesting question. Every b I burrito, every taco that I eat, every well, burritos too. E thing that I eat is generally an excuse. It generally a vehicle to get salsa or or whatever cream, you know, whatever guacamole cream sauce into my mouth I agree But I need I kind of want to know that Because if you're not drenching it in salsa then bacon and egg and cheese is standard Can I make another point, by the way? just a suggestion If I were a politician Now S and and this is maybe the might maybe the tacos that I got would be subject to if I thought they were subject to ridicule, that would change my order But in a vacuum potato wag and cheese is like the least stomach problematic Taco order you could possibly have and assuming and since you're like hanging out with an next president and presumably have ten more things on the agenda for today, probably the safest bet Yeah, that's a good point because you don't want to eat something super rich Yeah. Also, potatoes and breakfast burritos tacos just unless they're like hash browns are really tasty, I don't eat it. It's just filler Get out of here. J just how it just eggs and cheese Let's go, no, don't patoes. But the potatoes are important the Sams NVP controversy. Sunday, ESP and Sham Shirani broke the news that Shay Gilgust Alexander, SGA to his friends or Vic, if you prefer won the MVP. Thing is that news was going to be announced Sunday night by Amazon which like ESPN is a partner of the NBA Amazon got scooped on what it thought was its own special announcement. Here is Blake Griffin on the Amazon studio show weighing in. All right now just to be clear, the official announcement is happening here. Durk and Steve, you all both won MVPs, but I don't remember Shaam spoiling it way back then. was a. He was a baby then. What are we doing, man? L it's Sunday Saam's going to brunch, you nerd. Come on Party off camera laugh. There's nothing better. There' nothing better than that. Yeah Ben Ku of Alfa announcing makes a good point. He said, would Sams have been chasing this announcement if It was going to be unveiled on ESPN later that night. rather than Amazon or NBC. I think that's a pretty good question Do you get to scoop your own network Well So I think probably but also you're probably more familiar with the chain of command too where you're like, I wonder if this will be a problem if I scoop my bosses. I know who to ask my boss. you know, like it's a little bit different than Th asking Jeff Bezos Yeah. L does anybody have Bezos's number Um I don't know. I mean, the reaction to this was such that by the time I was watching that studio show Like it I had I had seen so much like justust response so I mean, so many people commenting on it. It was sort of shocking Like I guess to me Maybe the most interesting thing part about the whole thing isn't that Chom's Gooped Amazon It's that Amazon didn't do what I feel like every network in the history of time would have done and just proceed as if it hadn't been announced You know, to go along and do it and don't mention it and do your reveal and do the whole thing. The fact that they're sort of self aware or at least part of the broader fabric of of, you know, the sports industrial complex U is actually really interesting U I don't think I mean Blay Giffins thing that pass around like crazy Yeah, but he was just let's just say this he was kidding. Yes, of course. anyybody that spent more than thirty seconds listening to Blake Griffin understands that he would Talk to his friends that way. Oh my God. so much of like, I can't believe that person I watched in a clip was really pissed off and I'm like friends ninety five percent of the people you see in clips pissed off. They're not really mad at anything. But you and who outside of like somebody that worked at Amazon would actually be mad at about Like you're like, I wish that scoop had been preserved for Amazon. Like nobody freaking cares. No. noobody actually is upset. Lis of V all Blake Griffin. He's the most like no likely sarcastic person in the world. And that was the right response too. Y it was to go to brunch get brrunch nerd. that's it's just so it's I mean, that was a beautiful response Kudos to Blake Um But yeah, I mean, it's just it's a very strange thing. Would he be pursuing this news were it ESBN and who cares? It's news. He reported it You know, like it's just I don't under like it seems like such a bizarre controversy to me Like you would I founds like he wasn't like like definitively Sams wasn't L trading favors to get news. This doesn't help him politically. So now we're mad Adam You know, after after all of the other shit to me gets You, it's just so bizarre. C couple more quick things Have you been watching any clips on social media lately Yes. Wo a wrenchent question wasn't it Well, there is a new article in Vulture this week Actually, I felt like I read three or four articles about this very topic this week Yes. But let's go with the vulture piece. I literally, I literally had the experience of reading of Simming the pace And then finding my way back to it a day and a half later and feeling like I wasn't sure if it was the same piece. It seemed so okay Isn't that kind of a comment on the whole phenomenon we're about to talk about? Yes. Piece is by Lane Brown and Vulture Mhm And it is about thing called thing slipp He talks about this. This is what happens when, let's say you have a podcast or a movie trailer political speech or Justin Bieber's performance at Coachella Mhm More and more, Brown reports people are paid to post clips of those things. Yes And they're paid not too much to post clips of those things, one dollar for a thousand views Mhm So let's say you have a video podcast that really needs a bigger audience and you want to generate that audience. Well, you give them the raw materials and you say I want you to post this all over the place as many accounts as you can try all kinds of different clips with the hopes that one of those things goes viral And if it does, you'll earn a lot of money Mhm And if it doesn't, you'll earn a few bucks Well we're going to do this and The reason And behind, well, there's actually two reasons One is Brown writes, if enough of these clips rack up enough views fast enough Inredulous social media algorithms interpret the spike as an authentic surge of interest and push the videos to real users who sometimes generate real engagement prompting the alg algorithm to push those videos even further So you fooled the algorithm The second thing you're trying to fool is real people for the humans Yeah because you and I, I'm sure both do this all the time. If you see clips enough on Twitter You eventually assume that something is kind of big. Yes I mean, I think of all the measures now I'm like, w, I just I feel like I've seen that guy a lot lately I'm seeing clips from his video podcast And then you just assume that that person's big and then what happens? a profile gets assigned in the New York Times, you and I start talking about the person on a podcast And whether they're big or not, They sort of become big by default or at least more present by default There's an interesting example in this piece where one of the founders, co founders of an agency that Brown writes about says the second SNL drops at midnight You should post one hundred times saying that was the best performance, meaning musical performance of the year All these tweets. So now we are swimming in this world where Vy little of what you see is an authentic sentiment That was not bought or paid for Yes And the only the only original snimons left are the ones that are vague that you don't know what it's in response to. Someone's just like, oh my god. and then, you know, you have to check the responses to see what they're talking about Um Even that's probably pretty fake too But ye, nothing's really real. I mean The Z media response to the story, and you've probably been more aware of it than me has been pretty interesting because I feel like no one quite knows where to come down on this U One of the names that I kept saying floating around in response to it I think it' is it in I think it's in the piece, but is clavicular who is the sort of like Looks maxing fellow that was everywhere last month I saw tons of Clavic killular clips before they started writing about him, you know, like but all in the same span that I'm sure all the writers and editors involved did too And it seemed like all of a sudden this guy was everywhere. and It made sense, you know that the New York Times would do a profile of whatever else, But at the same but I guess the question that it begs is Is the New York Times victim to this same you know, fake Popularity. campaign that users are Or is New York Times Would the New York Times do their service regardless because no matter how it got in front of everybody, it's in front of everybody right now. So it deserves comment Um I thought that was a pretty it's an interesting question that I don't think there's a clear answer to It's a really interesting question U I think the Times probably does a better job than most outlets at fending this off, but This is what happens. They've spent, you know, decades and decades like feigning disinterest in mass movements, right? So they' So they've got they've got the vocabulary down they'll be like some people find this thing intriguing, you know, but but may But yes, you're right. There's a lot ofty thousand foot analysis. Yeah. But I was just I was just going to say like this is what happens when instead of going out and finding things that you think are interesting and important program your website, your podcast, whatever it is with here are things I saw on Twitter You're inviting the algorithm to be your assignment and It's a very, very fine line as you just illustrated. Well, that this dude is a thing. so maybe we should write about him But at the same time, you can take that so far as you're just writing about things that other people are tweeting Yes And it may not be a massive paid for campaign either, but you're just going by tweets and being like, oh, look, there's a thing happen. I should talk about that thing And then eventually it just becomes this reinforcing loop Yeah this human centipede and nobody and nobody winds up doing anything interesting in. Human centipede sort of fits the bill for this thing too. It's interesting that you b It is Yeah, you're right. Was that actually a big movie or did we all just start tweeting about it because it was gross. Yeah. No, I mean, it's it it's I mean, that's that's the real question, right? I mean, I think that there I mean, certainly there was a line of things being completely inorganic and being somewhat organic and I'm I would guess that the New York Times or whoever else would have some Rubrick to Diffiate between the two Because again, it's not like any of those pieces are illegitimate. It's just sort of As a reader, are you aware that This that I don't know. There's a difference between like between like a social media fad and actual relevance Um, Yeah, I mean, its it's really intriguing. I guess its also becomes a different set of skills that you're promoting inside the editorial office. It's almost like foot speed is what counts most because I was thinking back to the the New Yorker documentary when they had the editorial meeting, which I'm sure was staged to some degree, But its it was just sort of the platonic ideal of what you think an editorial meeting is going to be like, right? where you're just all sitting around a table and you're like Hear me out There's a festival of spiders in Omaha, you know, like whatever. and then everyone's just like, yeah, that sounds great. But if you're the first person, if everybody's seen clavicular videos for a week then maybe they're, you know, it's a different pitch. But if you're the first person to come to the table and you're like, there's this dude named Clavicillular. Yes And he's what's called a lookxsmaxer. and let me tell you what that means, you know, then you're just like, are you fucking kidding me? Like imagine David Remniick hearing this for the first time. He's like, please, here's a million dollars, go write this story, you know, But But if he's heard of him, then it doesn't seem like that revelatory. It doesn't seem, you know. So it's sort of like who's on the cutting edge of this of of absorbing the clipping culture Um But yeah, I mean, it's a Yeah, I mean, I don't I think that just the there are a lot of revelations in that piece just in terms of how canny they were. When you hear anything about So and so's manager is the same manager for you. You're like, oh, they're all those' the twelve people I've seen most on across all the platforms on various clipped videos lately.'s That's where it just becomes, it feels like you're part of a game and whether or not the journalistic Endeavor is legitimate. It's just like it just feels disheartening the whole thing. Check out the piece which is called The Fed is Fake Over on vulture. By the way, how many times have you I mean, it's def'm not I'm sure it hasn't happen been a million times But it certainly it's happened in your career where you know, certainly it's definitely happened where you have a great idea for a story and then you Google and find out somebody wrote it a year ago Right? Like that happens But there's also been times I can imagine where you have a great idea for a story and you mentioned it to a friend that works elsewhere and they're like, oh yeah, my corker is writing that piece and that's enough to dissuade you R. John That's not the culture anymore. The idea that somebody would be put off by by an opposing outlet running that running a similar subject just doesn't really happen. These things get get mass produced in the same way that that uh, that, you know, people consume social media in some ways. It's just so much stuff, too. and you don't have to make hard decisions as a publication. Yeah. You know, before you're essentially saying, we're going to de vote Five pages to that columns to that if someone else has already done the story And now you don't really have to choose We will also do that because. We have finite space from time to time, David here, we do a feature called the best Pieace aboutbout Yeah This week we have a Star Wars movie A Mandalorian movie, a baby Yoda movie. and I thought, What's the best piece about Star Wars Oh, that's a good question Yeah, and it's one that I don't feel terribly qualified to answer, but I can give you the one that I go back to and read again this week It's by John Seabrook It ran in the New Yorker in January nineteen ninety seven before any clavicular stories were assigned by that magazine or even considered You know how the New York has a department nameame above every story Oh yeah. onward and upward with the arts. This story by John Seabrook was called Letter from Skywalker Ranch has got to be the coolest department name in New Yorker history The piece, if you want to look it up, is called Why is the Force still with us Mhm And it's an essay that has some of the vital organs of a profile sense that Seabok is writing about the phenomenon of Star Wars, but also went to Skywalker Ranch and interviewed George Lucas He had Huivos run Cheros with Harrison Ford. something I would have liked to have done in my journalistic career in the l, may not before it's over What's interesting about this piece is it com out in january nineteen ninety seven So the three original movies have been made Mhm Star Wars is pretty dormant for a while. That month The re releases, the special editions of those movies would come out where George Lucas had tuned up the special effects. If you remember those were the things that really pissed off the fanboys and girls first before the prequels. Yes. And then at that point, all of Star Wars writing became about how the new thing ruin the old thing or honored the old thing. It was all very self referential. But at this point Sebrra couldider stand there in january ninety seventh and just write about the original phenomenon of Star Wars and what it meant to us Remember at that point in history, it had not been an original movie in fourteen years and it was still this huge industry of books and toys and all those kinds of things And I'll read to you one passage that I really liked Seabrk writes, The movie has all the really cool parts of the future Interplanetary travel, flashy effects, excellent machines But it also has the friendships, the heroism The other reassuring conventions of the cinema processed past Outlaw saloons, dashing flyboys, sinister nobles, brave knights and narrow escapes It makes you feel a longing for the unnameable thing that is always being lost dot dot dot But it's a longing sweetened by the promise that in the future We'll figure out some way of getting that unnamable thing back And suchuch a great way to describe Star Wars. And there's twenty sentences like this in this piece. which again, you can read on the New Yorkers' website or as a part of John Seabrook's book Noobrow. And she wrote about all these various parts of American culture that were half culture, half marketing. Star Wars being one of the All right, David coming up in thirty seconds, Stephven Colbert's last stand with a comedy expert from the New York Times. But first, let's do the overworked Twitter Joke of the weeek where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious All of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time senior nominees to add the pressbox pod. where they're always Always gratefully received David. Last week we had a guerilla trade Meghgan Swift of the Pittsburgh Tribune Review Reports Pittsburgh Zoo and Aquarium is set to trade gorillas Boston's Franklin Park Zoo. Frankie Pittsburgh seven year old male Western Lowland gorilla will head to Boston And in exchange, Boston will send thirty three year old little Joe the Silverback back to Pittsburgh The zoo announced. Are you ready to hear what Twitter did with that one Please Pittsburgh got absolutely fleeced here Another one, Glad to see Nico Harrison found work again And this is my favorite classic win now move. You have to give Pittsburgh credit for going for it while their championship window is open Thanks to Greg Horowitz and thatstone. If you went full shamps Congrats, you made the overworked Twitter joke of the week And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match they spread. He's reaching for the buuffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on, what's this? Well, he's good for C of Pepsi too. Inredible! What a finish Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero suugar for today's match Poetry in motion Ladies and Germs with Stehven Colbert signing off on Thursday night's just One man I want to talk to. his name is Jason Zinneman He is a critic at large for the New York Times who makes a specialty of writing about fununny people comomedians Got a great new profile of Martin Short up Nework Times right now that you need to go read He has been a long distance friend of this podcast for many years Jason, I am so happy to say Welcome to the press box Oh, it's incredible to be here. We've never met, but we were colleagues at a sports magazine but should have been the greatest sports magazine of all time Once upon a time, play magazine. RIP, play magazine What a what a three year quarterly run it was. It was like the Derek Rose of sports magazines. That is the perfect pull. Thank you, and welcome to the Ringer with that NBA analogy All right, Colberars signing off on Thursday How is Stepven Colbert's late show going to be remembered Well I think it's going to be remembered in part for how it ended there's such a this is such a massive story and it's a political story and it's also a business story about a referendum on late night. But I think, you know, I was thinking about this that there is this kind of history in late night of like sort of sophisticated New York aspirational voices and you look at like Jack Parr going all the way back to the second host of the tonight show who you know would commute in from Connecticut to the Algonquin hotel where his office was, where he would hang out with Dorothy Parker and Noah Howoward and the like. And then you know, Dick Cavt the in the seventies who was these sort of the the smmarty pants alternative to Johnny Carson. And I think, you know, when C Colbert filled that niche I believe you know, for this generation and when he leaves, it's not going to be replaced. Like that that is he was a he was a talk show host who could recite poetry from memory the, you know, creator of Fleaabag who could talk to could talk about his favorite Sondheim song it could have, you know, long discussions about the afterlife with you know, whether it's, u you know, Neil Degras Tyson or Kianna Reeves. And I think I think that is I don't think it's like a comedy bit I think, you know, interestingly enough, I think some of his most memorable moments are more kind of soulful, literary, Um are moments that are are often about and I think this will we'll see more of this in the last couple shows about, you know, loss and grief and more serious issues It's such an interesting point because Jimmy Fallon is person. Jimmy Kimmel has grown in office He's not Mr., you know, women jumping on trampolines anymore Right But he he doesn't really go there, right? hisis interests or not and Heel to grass Tyson No. he, I mean, he'll fill the political he'll benefit from Colbert leaving because all of the people who gravitate to Colbert as a critic of Trump will go to Kimmel and he is certainly U I think we'll benefit in the ratings for that and he does that part of it, but you're right. It's a different different thing There's a non cray scenaro where Colbert would have done Three more years, five more years and then just decided to hang it up and write Lord of the Rings movies and do a podcast and talk about deeper subjects How much bigger do you think Donald Trump and Brendnon Carr made Stephen Colbert by trying to shove him off the air. much bigger Much bigger. This is honestly it's the best possible scenario for Colbert because I mean, you know, late night, the knock on late night was that it was it was diminishing in relevance, right? It was It didn't have a young young audience. It was not capturing the zZeitgeist. It was definitely, you know, Colbert, we forget, was leading in is leading in the ratings and his leading l in the ratings for many years. Oh, by the way, for the history of television, the way we judged Success was ratings. So he was wildly successful by the way we've always measured these things But you could credibly say that, you know, because of the internet and because of where the conversation is moving, it was decreasing in relevance until This happened And suddenly, If the president's attacking you every day and it looks like You're hounded off the air for political reasons, whether it's true or not. You move from a comedian and a talk show host into a realm of kind of martyr folk hero, which is where You know, Conan went when he got taken for different reasons., when he left the Tonight showhow, where where Chappelle became when he left the Comedy Central show. and I think in a large degree Chappll's people forget, but his stature now in part is due to the way he left a show. So I think that Colbert is a real opportunity now to capitalize on this. His exit has a meaning that it It wasn't going to happen You could add Letterman leaving NBC to that list too, you know? Yes full Martyrdom. denied the job I had wanted for my entire life You and I grew up watching Johnny and Dave J to a lesser extent and Conan and all these other guys. So I feel nostalgia. for late night Yes Beyond that though What do we lose What do we actually lose when we lose late night television? Well, it's a good question. I think you know, a couple of things. First of all, a lot of what late Night does has been replaced by other forms, right? So you can now get longer form, more interesting conversations on podcasts You can promote your movies on places like Chicken Chhop Date U or hot ones, or a variety of other places or you know, Theovu's podcasts or whatever U St up. It used to be like the place where you become a star. you you get on Johny, you become a star. That that, you know, you're more, that's more likely to happen on on Netflix or YouTube Um What I think you lose and I was thinking a lot about what I'm actually I think like you I'm nostalgic for the Late show as an institution. more than Colbert. Colbert is going gonna be fine The late show has been around now for longer than Johnny Carson hosted the tonight showhow. U whichich is crazy, right? It's been a part of people's lives. for a long time. It's and What I think these shows do always did well is there was an element of kind of variety show about them of a sort of A little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a few jokes A little bit of song, a little bit of celebrity chat And if you were kind of a casual fan of comedy, you might, you know discover a band that you didn't know about or you might hear about, you know, something in the news that you didn't know about It wasn't you know, today we live in this culture where it benefits fandoms and obsessives. If you love you know, the Red sox, there's ten podcasts for you. If you're obsessed about music, there's a podcast for you. What we have less of today Are these these kind of last? gasp of the monoculture where somebody A casual kid watch and get a sense of something, casual with a rich sense of curiosity. can learn about something new U, you know, the Colbert, there's a sociological term called the Third place And I know Colbert mentioned this. he cared about this, where it's the idea that it's not your workplace. It's not your home But it's sort of this place that like kind of strangers can gather and meet, right? It might be the bar, it might be a Starbucks. Colbert took seriously the idea of the talk show as a third place U and there aren't many of those places left. Um And and I think that's why you see so much attention to his leaving. And there's the political story, but I actually think it's more than that. I think if you compare it to say Mark Marrin leaving last year Mark Meron started this new this institution, tremendously important figure in a much cooler art form, right? podcasting. R? And he left and there was some Bali who But Not them outount of full course press Media obsession The u the end of the late show H has And I think that's part of it. When did you first notice that late night shows were losing some of their cache? I mean, I think it's probably around the When you realize that People were making the jokes on Twitter that before The The light hosts were making them in the the model way. becausecause a big part of the what they gave you is Crazy stuff happened during the day and then you get to turn on television and watch Johnny Carson or Letterman, or whateever make a topical joke. I mean the topicality was essential that kind of made sense of the day And u When Twitter started fing that, service and U, then that posed a real problem for late night And then that was the beginning of a kind of like series of dominoes falling where the late night show kind of vanished and it became like a collection of loose parts, some of which were distributed on the internet and suddenly they're competing with all the rest of us The loose parts portion of that is fascinating to me because I know my mom would watch Colbert's monologue I'm not sure she ever sat down at ten thirty Central and watched The late show. was just watching it because places like your newspaper would cover the monologue or aggregate the monologue. what here's what these people said last night. But to your earlier point, it was no longer show that was made up of all these constituent parts It was like, here are some jokes A lot of these jokes are about Trump, so they're fulfilling the needs of the resistance Here we go You'll never you'll never believe what Stephen Colber said, but it wouldn't show anym As you said, it was just all pulled apart. And that was like a fascinating moment for me because I'm like, You know, again, you and I grew up an age where we're like either staying up late or we're taping these things. And you know, you'd make it to that weird band at the end of Letterman on NBC and be like, I have no idea who this is. But I feel I should sit here because this is part of an institution. This is part of a thing I like And Dave has blessed this just like he's bless stupid pet tricks And it was coherent. Like there's sometimes like he let everybody make a joke early in the show. and it would pay off later in the show and So you will And I think also, you know, I don't know if you were like this But there's something very powerful about the way we watch those shows. So when I was a little kid, Letterman was on pass by bedtime So I had to sneak away from my bed and like put the TV on very low And what it was like a transgressive act just to watch it because I was so, you know, I wasn't supposed to be up And that's a very powerful memory Um And a lot of people, a lot of kids got that relationship to those shows that way and it had this young, passionate audience, which it doesn't anymore. I mean, The Daily showow is the only late night show that has a growing young demographic Think about this the other day, like when you're a kid, what are your portals to the adult world And in the eighties For me, it was sports pages and late night television Yeah Th those were two things that I could understand from a young age. but it felt like eavesdrop. on stuff my parents were talking And it's And what do you want to know more when you're young? it's Funny comedy. R. But also like what the adults are saying L sure. you know, you're like, you know, even my parents had friends over, you're listening in And what they're saying And I mean, I think for Letterman's generation, that was very much what watching Carson was all about I think letterman was a little bit you know, it was a little different in that I you felt yourself represented a little bit U, I think more that it was it felt like there was four young people in the way our Cney hall was too Um this is like a part of late night that doesn't exist anymore, which is that it It felt like it was four young people. It was late night Cool. That was part of it. It was late night, right? Now it it really let me look I think u The older audiences are still watching Cobert and Late night Shs religiously And it still means a lot to them Um But the younger audiences, you know are on the scrolls, you know,'s and they' they're interacting with some of these late night shows, but not on TV, but, you know, on YouTube or TikTok or whatever. One data point in the Death of Late Knight that I wanted to run by you When I was a kid, Let's say Dave would come out and tell a joke And sometimes that joke was a ten out of ten and the audience would just explode And sometimes that joke was a four out of ten. and the audience would kind of chuckle At some point in the last ten or fifteen years everyvery single joke that a late night host told gotot a ten out of ten reaction from the audience No matter how funny it was. This is true of Kimmel. this is true of Colbert. It was true of Letterman at CBS at the end Yeah, audience just sounded so juiced And I feel like late Night showhs lost a lot of their authenticity because of that Oh my go. such a good point. such a good point because That was integral. Carson Carson, everyone says if you he's funniest when the joke didn't work then to watch him react to it. If every joke kills He doesn't get to exercise his greatest talent. And you're right. Letterman, I mean I just rewatch one of the first episodes of the Late Show which I went to go visit the late showow in second week in nineteen ninety three. And I watched it again, Sis Nber, Robert Plant. And there was a lot of you're right. There was jokes that bombed on that show. and then that was the funniest stuff and It's crazy. I mean, listen, you listen to Bill Mars's audience Oh, there's booing cat whistles for some so juiced. It's so juiced. it's it's u I had somebody, I had a reader who was obsessed with this and would email me. He had all these conspiracy theories about plants in the Billmore audience who are like because they also do these they they hoot Right? And he he was he like it was like he was like the Woodwardin Bernstein of the Bill Ma, you know,ack stacked audience. and there it may be so. There's definitely true that like That audience is just is everything is just, you know, raucous. Yeah, that you can't fail as a late night host. that no joke could possibly bomb. And even with Bill Marr, when I haven't watched the show too much lately, but I feel like the audience would at least turn on him once in a while Any too soon or too much for you you know, he gets to be mock offended and that would at least be a moment. That's true, but if it's usually when he's at the desk, not when he's doing the monolog We're going to this is good investigation for those reporters like yourself with the New York Times. Last one for you, Jason So no offense to Byron Allen, who's going to be filling the late night slot on CBS Could one of these networks, if they want to spend less money, if they want to nod toward the times we live in? Could they just make this a podcast? They strip it down, no audience Kind of a monologue, make the cameramen laugh haveave a guest come in Tom Snyder now. could you do it like that now do you think I think it's inevitable I think it's inevitable. I think Um Look, the reason The late night talk shows, the real reason they became popular is because they were cheap They were cheaper than sitcoms, hour long dramas, even like even news shows. They were's Over the years, they became more expensive because of the late night warar at Slan Theater and these big theaters. But the fundamentally it's humans talking to humans, as people telling jokes. They don't need to be as expensive. they can be video podcasts, of which there's no shortage of them now. And I think at some point As you know better than I, is't covering the media as much, we keep reinventing the wheel, right? And they're going to realize like, oh yeah, people that like comedians talking to comedians, like that's why these podcasts are popular. And we got this form that's U that's really cheap And we have all this talent on YouTube Why don't instead of having Byronalanon where like the risk reward is very low Oh And the comic might be dead Yeah, we get Zway or we try to convince Anmy Pohar or we get, you know, Adam Friedland or any number of people. I think what's gonna to happen if you look ahead to ten years from now or five years from now, is it's going to look more like these video podcasts. now. You have podcasts becoming more like talk shows. And talk shows are have already been becoming more like podcasts with the cutting of bands and the shrinking of theaters. So I think it's I think it's inevitable that that I think the pot and I think The podcast has proven that there is a audience for conversation Um And so I think I could see that the next successful version of a late Night Tal show, and I think there will be will be one which leans more into conversations it just feels like you could export that to YouTube You could make it into an actual podcast. You could just sell it in all the ways that A show is required to be sold now Yes, it's very weird that we've gone through decades and decades of lateight and eventually come back to Tom Snyder That's where truth and enlightenment lay the whole time Jason Zenteman, Read him in the New York Times. It's great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the press boox Great to be here Thanks for having me. Allright, it's time for David Shumemaker guesses the strained pun Headline. Yeah Last week's headline about U S. escort ships in the Strait of Hormuz was Naval piercing. Today's headline comes to us from Alert listener, Mark Moseley. It's from ESPN. com The Vegas Golden Kights, David finished off the Anahheim Ducks for to two. L Thursday To advance to the Western conference final where they'll play the avalanche The night's coach John Tortarella after this victory refused to speak to reporters team did not open up its locker room. This is after a victory, I remind you Big story in the world of sports media. For what the NHL calls flagrant violations, Vegas had to forfeit its second round pick this year and the coach got fined one hundred thousand dollars So the Golden Knights did not speak to the press What was ESPN d. com's drain punnt headline So, I thought it was gonna be Vegas. I'm like you know, Omera thing Oh, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? Yeah. Um, or that? Yeahah. Okaykay. So the night Yeah That's the word night Uh available to the press, so what kind of knights were they Quiet at night huh Mm. You're getting there quiet nights What'd you say? N not quiet nights? Silent nights. Silent nights. Yeah, there we go. Silent nights. He's David Schumaker. I'm Brian Curtis. Prediction magic by Isaiah Blakeley and John Romer. Follow us on Instagram at Pressbox Ringer wrrit us Pressbox ringer at Gmail. Uh, comoming up this week, David Can I interest you in this? John Krackhower is gonna be on the press box. Wh T talk about the thirtieth anniversary of his book I Thin air Breaking his silence brereaking his silence, which I also read on paper this week Plus, Sarah Longwell, the founder and publisher of the Bllwor is going to be in studio with me here in Los Angeles to talk politics and other matters. Joels here Thursday, David ot something else to say. If you're one of those audiobook listeners, then you probably know that Barbara Rosenblad, who we nam checked earlier, is in fact a giant of the game, one of the absolute best and most widely respected to E do. I just wanted to give her a shout out for dismissing her And she read into thin air we're just just giving her a plug here. No, no, she did she did the Grifters. Oh, she did the Grifters. Yeah Good job, Barbara. J's here Thursday David. I'll see next Tuesday with moreukewarm ticks about the M See you later, Briant