Remembering New Yorker Writer Mark Singer

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That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have whatood is this table wood I think it's laminate. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. seell your car today on carana. Pick up these Mfly. Last week, Joel and I were talking about Fox World Cup announcer Lexie Lwas Absolutely no fans. And even worse It was the subject of a Guardian piece by Aaron Times that everybody was. passing around this week. M The marathon length takedown I didn't realize we were doing that anymore. I thought that was kind of an early os thing. Yeah. But we're still killing announcers in print. not just on podcasts Well, Joel and I made a list of other sports announcers who had a long run on TV despite having few or no fans The list included Phil Sims, Tony Dungeie. Mark May may be the best comp here Still war I got some pushback on Bill Walton because people remember lovable college basketball Bill Walton, who's dressed like Uncle Sam. Yeah Whipper snapper I was there for the NBA and NBC. I was there when Bill Walton was calling the finals Trust me on this one What about Dan Diirorf came up, why did people hate Dan Diirorf I just remember in my formative years of watching football. anyime I would see him, I'd be like, what is this doing here knowing nothing about football. He was definitely bringing the pain, but I always loved Dan Dirorf on Monday night football All right Also Frank ififf it was kind of fading, so Dan was the analysis Yeah at that point in history. Dan seems like a like a great like second string like ESP in booth guy analyst. I think it was just his platform, his prevalence that seemed a little bit bizarre We got some other nominees from listeners. Some people sin as Stehven A. Smith. Im like folks. I understand you're mad at Stehven A but most likely You're mad at Steven A and then you listen to the next Stehen A clip that comes across your timeline Well, the Stehven A is you don't count Steven A, but is it because he's working heel basically? I mean, like for all the years that everybody hated him, that was the point Exactly There's a difference in wrestling. between a successful heal Mhm And a heel who walks into the ring and gets what I believe they call go away heat. Yes They just don't like you We're not mad at you. We're not reacting to your stick. We just don't like you. We just want you to go away. That's mostly what this list is. Here's some other names Got Lb Mhm lot of go away heat for Doug Gotlab. Yeah. Craig James. That much is a much bigger list than I was a bigger group than I was expecting it to be. goo ahead I will submit that when Craig James had the Hbie job on game day on a ESPN. People forget that Craig James was the original Herbie. He had a lot of nice young man energy. When he got mixed up with Mike Leach later people started to turn on him, but Never underestimate nice young manen in sports broadcasting. Mhm Another nominee, Tom Tolbert. Oh, all the NBA fininals once upon a time Sports radio guy from San Francisco. Yeah in his other media life That's an interesting one Kendrick Perkins Well, he's kind of working heel too. I don't think Big perk has goway heat No, not at all He had this clip we played last week where he was talking about Vincent Goodwill. That whole thing about participation trophies winning the NBA title. that got so much run last week. And Burke was like, you know, sometimes you're on the SPN and you're feeling the table Yeah. That's how he described like getting into an opinion segment and feeling the table is my new favorite. That's so good. Prase, just absolutely wonderful For announcers with few or no fans, how about Jason Garret Oh man, should we telling that I sent you a wild picture of Jason Garrett donating a giant golf check somebody and he' was like, you were like, whereere are you? I'm like, I at my local pizza spot. I guess Jake Garret graduated from Princon, I guess all the community. Yeah had no idea C can't believe I left him off the list as obsessed as I am with Jason Gry. Yeah funny that whole NBC show had a lot of nominees. someome other people were like, How about Rodney Harrison? I'm like, okay, we can't put everybody from football Kight in America B the list Isaiah, our super producer nominates Chris Weber Oh man. I don't hate Chris Weber, but I know that that's a definitely that's that's a that would be a Popular choice There's a difference between Fab five, Chris Weber. memories of that guy and broadcaster Chris Weber who was shoved down our throats for a few years Yeah, I think there's just a disconnect between the public perception of Chris I mean, I think the of The vast majority of sports fans in our demographic or all of them in our demo, but like the vast majority of sports fans know who Chris Weber is, everyverybody over you know, thirty five has a general concept of what he was like as a player and all the Fab five stuff. We've seen the documentaries I don't know that any of us could pick his voice out of a lineup At least certainly not before he was an announcer And I think that there's just a big disconnect between like the character you're expecting and the person that it is I agree I felt like he had some potential and maybe never got the right partner or had't have the right producer Mm mayaybe he didn't have the right. I mean, maybe he didn't have the drive, but I always always I mean, he had a very I thought sort of thoughtful approach to the game and And, you know You know how I gauge these things, though? It's like am I paying attention to the person talking at all? And with him it was like more than the than the mean Yeah If the timing were different, I'd love to see what NBC would have done with him either on the pre game show or at the announced table Yeah, that's true because he's not a He's not, I mean, like who are the the top guys in the game It's like he's not at all a Reggie Miller But but in a category of Richard Jeffersonss, he might actually be pretty great. you know, my category of Richard Jefferson F baseball David, Harold Reynolds And John Smolz both got nominated. Sports media watches John Lewis gave us two hockey names Mike Milbury and Pierre McGuire. I will trust him on those A few names I rejected that were nominated Boomer Asasan. I've always felt this way about Boomer Aizon But I recognize that mean he has like a daily a daily radio show Number one in New York City and like you don't have over a decade Yeah, you don't have that seat without some number of people. Even if it's just inertia, you know, you don't have you don't keep that forever People are mad at you, but they are listening to FAN every morning. so ye not on the list Joe Buck, which is like, come on, man, maybe ten plus years ago. Mhm. People love Joe Buck now And this one't surprised me. Chris Collinsworth got nominated again and again in our Instagram comments I don't know if that's just because he's been doing the number one game for so long. 't you just have a mass of people that hate you on principle because they listen to you all the time I think that's a huge part of it. I also think that like frankly, and I don't mean to just like make fun of blanket make fun in blanket fashion to everybody who's saying these tweeting these things I think Chris Collinsworth is really easy to like make jokes about, but I think if you like confuse Bill and cousin Salals like, you know Collinsworth Riffts for actual an actual feeling that they don't want him on TV. You're very, very wrong Right I I don' no. Yeah. he's like he's he's He's like Jim Ross, right? It's just like everything that he says more than once is like a catchphrase and it's easy to mimic and everything else. But he's great. likeike like he's it takes a certain skill set to be doing the national football broadcast. like the game of the week every single week. You can't be Well history would say you can't just be like a stathe. You can't be have too narrow an identity, you know, you have to just sort of be this sort of like Like He's grandpa with arms open when the car pulls up at Christmas time, you know, He's like everybody come in and get your hug, you know That is absolutely his affect I think also theat Patrick Mahomes praise People are tired of the chiefs and then Collinswth praises Mahomes and so they're mad at him. but he doesn't belong on this list. He praises every every, you know, above average player that crosses his vision Two interesting names from the past. How about Billy Packer? Oh, I'm not I'm not I'm much more familiar with Billy Packer in this sort of conversation form than as an actual broadcaster. I don't thinkm I'm the person who should be calling this one So if people don't know the late great Billy Packer called The final four year after year after year on CBS Mostly with Jyim Nanans. He was veryy critical He by the end of his run there was always dog in the mid majors Mhm like, you know, Blue blood programs, Th those are the good teams in college basketball. I don't like the Mid Majors anymore. He had this weird habit of always calling Duke Duke University which was one of the strangest broadcast ticks of all time. Is there is there like a re Is that one of those things like it's like the D John Hopkins or whatever University Like is it the Ohio State Is it is it a is it the John Johns Hopkins? Yes. they do. Yeah. Um, Is that one of the like is Duce Duke pushing this in a press in press releases we don't see or something Duke University. I don't know. I' only heard Billy do it. Even Jim Nance didn't do it with him The other name Mbe he's old enough to remember the like, you know, the periods of like medieval Europe where like being a duke was a thing. He just wants to clarify there's been a lot of dukes in his lifetime talking about royalty here. I'm talking about unversity U Similar to Packer, Tim McCarver a guy that I only know with from people bitching about him basically I think for similar reasons too, we call the world sereries year after year after year on CBS and then on Fox He was resistant to saber metrics at the end as we have to call them. U But those two are both good. I had perverse respect. for both guys But I think especially but Carver like back when was like a revolutionary baseball announcer But I could totally see them being on this list David from announcers that have no fans to an announcer that has a new fans. I am a Big, big supporter of World Cup announcer Darren Fletcher I don't know how much Darren Fletcher you've gotten to listen to But man, he has been fantastic for Foxer in the World Cup twenty plus years of broadcasting in the UK His style is fascinating because he is the play by play announcer with analyst Owen Hargreves. a very opinionated play by play announcer Like he is rendering opinions. he's arguing with the rules guy Love that. He enthusiastic but enthusiastic in a I want to sink my teeth into this game wayay rather than enthusiastic in a soccer is awesome, isn't it way? which I love He was doing some American analogies last week where he was like He's a lockdown full backack just like Reivis Island in the NFL And again, I'm like, I'm not sure in twenty twenty six, Americans need the direct comp to Derelle Rvis You feel like we're being talked down to We understand defense in soccer, but he did it in such a delightful way that It made me smile for me to hear Absolutely love it. He named checked Deon Sanders as well, by the way Here is Darren Fletcher calling Leonel Messi's goal against Austria yesterday Bow down an Argentina attack. H's Elmada on the move for the worldor Champions Now Madida P Pull back here, let'sy run Aang. She scores the goal to make him the World Cups an all time leading scorer. H Even I got excitedh As cup agnostic, I was in sitting at my desk here at Ringer headadquarters watching my phone. and I was like, man, I am just fired up right now Good on you, Darren Fletcher. you're doing some great stuff at the World Cup. You're ring everybody's imagination of the Ringer Bullpin. I think most people would assume it's just like a sports bar. They don't have to watchh things on your computer. It's just like thirty screens pumping sports into you at all times. It's like every barstool video I watch just dudes in chairs Yeah. let me recreate it for people. It was an empty office I was sitting there by myself looking into a phone and eventually our friend Connor Eevans wandered in and I told him what happened. And he was like, I was just turning the lights off. I didn't realize you were here There were no bros around for me to high five and make videos with. just for people who want a little behind the scenes here at Ringer headadquarters All, David, Keving up on the press box, I've been reading Maggie Haborb bit at Jonathan Swans. Big new Trump book Reime change And I've got some nuggets for you. All right. We will check in on Savannah Guthrie. We will check in on Linda Coh who's leaving ESPN. And we will say farewell to the great New Yorker writer Mark Singer and give you some stories of his You ought to read All that and much more on the press box apart of the ringer. Podcast network. Hello Media consonsumers. it's Brian Curtis, it's David Schumemaker. It's producer, Isaiah Blakeley doing a fantastic job as always on production David, one of the very cool things about doing this job is that people send you books. Mhm family and I were away spending a couple days at the beach On Father's Day weekend We get back We walk up our front walk and there in front of the door is a big fat mananila package Oh containing this book Reime change. Yeah Look at this golden book There was in there's another what was it? I was at the bookstore. I can tell you about it but I had at a book st for the other day, there's another solid gold book that caught my eye Y It a risky cover because it can get scratched very easily? Yes For those of us who like to preserve our books in pristine condition, it's easy to rough these guys up Reime chang is by Maggie Hamran and Jonathan Swant to reporters of the New York Times The subhead is inside the imperial presidency of Donald Trump Big books like this tellell us as a veteran of the publishing industry, what do they do? What agenda do they set? What do they do for publishers Well As much as we're going to focus on all the stuff that's in it So if I I mean, you know, rest assured that that book was fully sold into Barnes and Noble and Amazon and everybody else before anyone had any idea of what was in it. It's just about the names and the I mean, the author, the subject matter and the degree to which the publisher is behind it which you can actually like put on paper in ways such as We were printing all these covers in gold, you know, like it's not it would actually be in the sales pitch Uh, yeah. yeah. certainly in the in the one on one sales pitch. likeike when your' sales well this is probably like the sales director you know goes in with like the handful of shift that the handful of titles are really, really meaningful one on one with the buyer at Barnes and Noble Um Although the Barnes and noble sales rep is the sales director. I mean, it's just the whole industry is so flattened. But yeah, you would go and you would say, you know, like listen, I'm going I'm going to let you hold the book's not, the book doesn't exist yet. The book's not printed yet but we have some sample covers to show you. justust look at this, you know. J every really excited. Yeah, just I mean, just to say like, you know, we're instead of spending thirty five cents on each cover, we're spending like seventy eight cents on each cover. That's how much we don't care. We're not worried about the sales track here. I mean, it's or the sales area, we're going to be a best seller You know Um But it's and those are the kind of books that keep the lights on in publishing houses. You know, I mean, it's it's The last place that I worked, we published Bill O'Reilly when he was publishing all those like historical I don't even know if they were, I mean, they weren't like novels, but they were just, you know, novel novelistic histories. This was the killing so and so. Yeah killing Kennedy, killing Lincoln Isas he killing Jesus one of the books that he came out with? Yes. I don't think I was there for that. Do think you'd remember the death of a Messiah But but yeah, but I mean, and those are And I know, I mean, I know that in the time that followed that you know, in the sort of like M to era. There are a lot of authors that sort of you know, the staffs of the publishing houses sort of stood up against And it's I would say I would say that, you know, ninety eight percent of the people I worked with were not O'Reilly fans and the other two percent, I wouldn't hazard to guess. But like You know, everyone was kind of aware like this is not an ideological thing. This is a you know, make sure that the company stays in stays open sort of thing And that's not just an ideological conversation. I mean, there's, you know James Patterson will keep the lights on wherever he go, you know, like it's all the best selling authors like they' they're counted there there's a lot of dependence on them and there's a lot of dependence on just like the in economic terms and just like the flow of money in and out the door You know, I mean, it's like that sort of flow and I'm no no economists, but that seems to be what really like keeps these places going, right? The highest the highest level authors will have differentiff royalty rates They'll get paid way more money in advance over and above what the book may actually make, you know and that's because like we need to be seen as a large scale publisher and we need to be, you know, when you go in to have your w woment the buyer, you show them that gold cover, then you say, and we also have these two books. you might not be as familiar with the authors. likeike that's what gets you in to have those conversations I mean, this it affects everything up and down. Um And but specifically in this case, I mean, this is a This is a if you could just behind the scenes, if there were a reality show about publishing this, it would be incredibly boring. But the super cut that you would want to watch is the super cut you would want to watch is all the discussions about when to push the button on printing the next print run Right? It's just because you have to be way ahead. It can take You know, I mean, it doesn't take that long to print a black and white just regular book, but you know, compared to a larger scale color, whatever photo book, but like It still can make a huge difference. If Barnes and Noble says we need twenty thousand more and you say You you got to wait a week, then you probably lose nineteen thousand of those sales, you know? So you got And but the last thing you want is a warehouse full of robots they can't move around because there's too many copies of regime change, you know? it's you could lose a lot of money over printing too. So Anyway One last deal One last inside publishing question before we move into what's actually in the book When I think of big rain making books like this I think of books that come out in September. come out right before the holidays Is June an unusual month to publish something like this? I can't even tell you. I have a book coming out in July, so I hope the summer is okay But but speaking of rain makers. Yeah, But the, um, but the Uh I would say normally these things are either published as quickly as humanly possible. And so the month is a little bit beside the point Um or both as quickly as humanly possible and also targeting some anniversary, some some you know, political date this is the primaries or whatever, you know, like whatever. I think in this case, youd probably just publish as quick as you can And I think that's what happened here. This book is largely about the first year of the secondcond Trump administration Yeah And I regret to inform listeners that Donald Trump has only been back in the White House for a year and a half At this point, in fact, not even a year and a half. So probably You report on year one push, you know, put the book together as quickly as possible and here it is Yeah june twenty twenty six It would be interesting if there were more things to hold B, big like if book if book publishing was like Hollywood And you're like, well, if we're really serious about this book, it's got toa come out December I mean, there or September, right? likeike the fall season before Yeah, fall reading time. I mean, there are a lot of big books that are published that way very deliberately, but I love the idea that it's just like this book would be meaningful if it wasn't published in reading month. and would be meaningless if it wasn't published in reading month or whatever, you know, like it's just funn Be they're like, oh, both authors are on the view this morning. Yeah, we're gonna publish as soon as humanly possible. Oh yeah I got four thoughts for you, David. Okay on regime change the bg. Not the regime changed the book and perhaps the concept as well. Number one, political book like a political story often a collection of nuggets Mhm. littleittle throwway scenes a memorable quote This is the stuff that gets aggregated all over social media. It's really easy The smaller the story, the easier to aggregate Political reporting consists of nuggets Regime change is a McDonald's fififty piece There are so many nuggets in this book No book this year will contain more sentences that you can read aloud to your partner to make them laugh or scream And I'll give you a few nuggets that I was actually reading to Christine last night to gauge her reaction on. One of these is about Donald Trump's bedroom in the White House Have you ever wondered what Donald Trump's bedroom is like Sure Let me tell you Trump had done less redecorating of his bedroom, Habermman and Swanwright. During the first administration, and his living quarters back then were often chaotic. Bedroom carpet was regularly covered in piles of bankers' boxes where he stashed documents First term aides would privately refer to them as his beautiful mind boxes A sardonic only in journalism Reference to the biopic of the schizophrenic math prodigy John Nash The boxes were sometimes stacked so high that they left impressions in the carpet when moved A nighttime snacker, the president would frequently leave an array of empty potato chip bags Starbucks rappers. and ice cream cartons in the trash or on the floor The staff had to begin monitoring the trash after it was discovered that he was sometimes throwing out White House sterling silver utensils as one does. as one does againgain throwway chapter Or throwway a paragraph, I should say. What do you think he's eating from Starbucks? It's not Starbucks cups it's Starbucks rappers. So that means he's either getting the pound cake or like a breakfast sandwich Maybe a maybe he just has a bunch of individually bagged because we know they do it this way. indndividually bagged. Uh, what are the what are the the lollipops? Cake props Like individually bagged cake pops that he just eats one at a time. He's just like any image. He looks through them like I want the one with the raccoon ears or whatever. and I can believe anything you just said He just insists they keep the Christmas cake pops in production year round because those taste the best We know Trump likes McDonald's, but what does he like at Starbucks is an interesting question. Like does he prefer that breakfast sandwich to the McMuffins and the syrups or whatever they're called It's an interest it really is a dream I feel I feel like the answer to this would actually affect my opinion of him. I don What to say Here's another nugget One morning, Habberan's one, right, Press Secretary Caroline Levittt entered the Ovalffice to find Dald Trump. Cutching a tube of super gllue and attempting to affix gold decorations to the marble fireplace mantle As he was known to prefer his own aesthetic handandywork to anyone else's, the sight of the presidents squeezing glue onto gilded appliques and mounting them on the wall himself surprised no one in his inner circle Glue Superglue. So many nuggets. And again That stuff is scenery Mantle reays if you will There's also More substantial nuggets about Howard Lutnk and Scott Besson arguing about who is better to negotiate with Ukraine when Trump is unsuccessfully trying to end the war early in his first ear his first year in office. That's out number one Thought number two. People on the left have it in for Maggie Habram Sure. Should we explain why people on the left have it in for Maggie Haberman? let's go into it There's frustration with the way the mainstream media and the New York Times in particular covers Donald Trump And she was by far the most prominent Trump But U F on the Trump beat during his first term They think she's making trade offs. with people in the Trump administration in exchange for access and or scoops There's probably some misogyny mixed in there. In fact, there' definitely some misogyny mixed in there. Yeah And I think even for peopleeople like you and I who are much more sympathetic to her Always marvel at people who write about Trump in the language of newspapers Mhm because you always want to go up to them and say, tell me what you really think You have been up close to this thing for so long and almost marvel at the way that you can still write a newspaper story Mr. Trump's statement, extraordinary by the standards of past presidents, comma. it just at some point that just becomes mind blowing Yeah You and I couldn't do a podcast in that language How are you, you know calling people at the White House, finding out all these things that he's done or said? and still rendering history in those words Yeah I mean, I think it frankly for a lot of people on the left, idea that you could just like walk up to the Oval Oavice and spend any time in the same room as Trump without like calling him out to his face is sort of you know, is is a deal breaker You know what I mean? The fact that she just sits can sit quietly in his presence without like you know taking swings or something is it just shows that she's already that she's bought and sold or Um Totally agree. People have trouble processing the fact that somebody doesn't just sit down at their word processor and say, R right, Donald Trump is a huge liar and an asshole Exactly. You're sitting at a computer, you could be tweeting mean things. Right like me You could be making a resistance podcast. Can't really give it to Trump every week using, of course, the materials that I learned in the New York Times from Maggie Habrerman a lot of the time What will strike some people who have any of those feelings about Habrerman and Jonathan Swan Is that this book reads differently than her New York Times work Mhm I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead and finish what you're going to say. Well,' not Chapo goes to the White House. Do not get me wrong But whether it's because She and Swan are writing in the form of a book. or whether so many things have happened that they've chronicled that you could just say stuff now was have been harder to say during Trump won It reads or that wouldn't have made sense during Trump won, right? There's just much more context now Absolutely. It reads differently. I mean, here's a sentence from the book. Trump lied, of course, endlessly and preposterously But what started is fantasies often blurred and morphed into a reality of his making with jarring frequency in the help of his devotees Trump spoke his worlds into existence It's hard to imagine that sentence in the New York Times, at least in a straight news piece But it seem it seems appropriate in book form It seems very appropriate. When I say when you were talking about marveling at writers who can who' been writeing newspaper speak about Donald Trump You consider this something else Yes slightly different In terms of not, I mean, clear you've explained well how it sounds different Uh how there are things there, but but it just is it is it there is it a different sort of think mindset For the rat, I It's not ideological It's not like they are saying Donald Trump is a danger to the Republic in so many words, but it's more aggressively interpretive. These are people that have covered every moment of Donald Trump's political career and they know stuff and they understand stuff I was reading the beginning of the book and one thing they do right away is say a lot of people, especially Trump's associates tried to craft things they call the Trump doctrine, Trump doctrine of foreign affairs or this or that And they're like, there are no doctrines They're just impulses. Mhm And it's a natural thing, I think, for political writers to do is we look at what somebody does and we try to turn that into some kind of discernible ideology. Donald Trump does not have an idea. You know, maybe he has ideas about Don't forgetget the Don Rode doctrine. The Don Rode doctrine, immigrants are punishing his perceived enemies that come up with some frequency, with jarring frequency He doesn't have he doesn't have coherent thoughts about these things. Yeah He just doesn't. He talks to people, he makes decisions, and then he reverses himself and does something else There's a great scene in the book where picking the second Trump cabinet. Mhm And they have these TV screens and they're looking at the possible nominees. And of course Donald Trump is very interested in who looks good because they're going to be on Fox, who looks the part as he likes to say And Pete Hegsetith, of course, is his for Defense Secretary or Secretary of warar, if you will. And then you remember Pete Heex' nomination was on the ropes there for a while And Donald Trump toyed with the idea of replacing Hexetithh with Ron DeSantis His former and probably still current enemy was Gvernor Florida And he said to one person, according to Habrerman and Swan Qote, We need plot twists. And what a plot twist it would be if I picked Ron DeSantas. Yeah instead of A loyalist like Pete Hexon. Yeah, that's great. That's how the distraction. I mean is one of the ways the distraction takes form Um That's really interesting What do you think about the It's not new But it feels like it's being argued for the first time every time one of these books come comes out. What do you think about the people that are critical of them que, you know, supposedly holding big news for the to make money off of this book? I'm conflicted about it because I think there are things that againgain, if I'm If I run the newspaper, if I run the New York Times If I'm a reader of the New York Times who's paying a lot of money to have that land on my lawn every day C course, I want to read all this stuff right away. I think there is a compelling argument that People will cooperate with books in a way that they will not cooperate with daily journalism Mhm I mean, even go back to that vanity Fair piece, that amazing story about Suzy Wiles. Yeah. Is Susie Wiles giving that kind of access if that piece could wind up in the paper tomorrow No She's doing it because it's a long term vanity fair profile You know, I think sources are more likely to give you stuff. if they think and again You could probably argue they went away for a while and wrote this book. They were on leave, remember? and then came back with a big excerpt about Babbe Netanyahu that was so that we all talked about and read. But You know, I think you can argue that when they were working there, they were probably getting a lot of stuff. like they were probably doing their giving the paper their daily bread And Oh sure for the Yeah we should make that clear. It's not like there's no one should assume that they you know got a call on the bat phone they dropped some like top secret information And then they're about to, you know, call their editor to start the paper for Namarr and they werere like, no wait, wa, wait what if we saved this for the book What if we don't tell anybody about this I'm sure all of the stuff that was in the book had been at least discussed with their newspaper editors over time or unless it was Well, well, unless it was like, as you said, specifically as part of the book research, right? Like it was a separate a carved out interview or something that was that, you know, that took kind of place out of the regular timeline. I know maybe they were if they were roolding stuff to me, that's more problematic. I think my general assumption is there's only so much you can publish in the paper. A lot of this stuff that gets picked up and becomes a big story didn't feel like a big story as they were, you know, reporting it the first time It's just about the way it was received in some cases. and there's a lot of stuff that like it kind of goes to in both categories. You don't realize it's a big story as it's happening. It's only with the it's only with the hindsight that comes with the passage of time that you realize how important it was. Well let me come at it a different way If you're a reporter covering the Trump White House, you are on the most competitive beat in the United States. And if you get something like this, and if we get to talk to Habran and Swann at some point, I will certainly ask him about it. If you get something like this, aren't you just terrified someone else going to report? Absolutely I mean, it's not so much holding it from the readers. it's that you're going to hold it and then Jonathan Martin's going to report it or Josh Dawy over at the journal is going to report it. Yeah or, you know, Well that's why you say that it's not in Parker at the Atlantic. L they're going to get it and you're not going to get it When you're talking about the nuggets at the very beginning of the conversation, it's like, yeah, those nuggets are the things that nobody else has, right? But and that's that's in some sense I mean and for a lot of readers, that's what you're looking for. You're looking for feeling like it's like a real thing happening before your eyes, the kind of novelties of those of those, you know of life in the White House and everything else Um But you're right,'d be your argument is you'd be too scared to sit on I think so. If you're them Yeah I think so you know, your whole thing is you're trying to beat people by seconds a lot of the time. If people are if someone beats you to all these stories because you're holding them for the book, then you're not then that person's going to be writing the big book in four years. or in one year. you know, that person's to that you're good. Yeah. I mean, if someone's taking all your scoops because you're holding them then like that person's going to be the be the new Joonath Swan Maggie Habbererman. Um But yeah, but yeah. so it's it's Also, I mean, like I said, the big Netanyahu piece like like I'm not trying to be controversial to say this, but if that piece had randomly, I mean, it just dropped in the New York Times maybe a as a, you know a smaller version of that piece had dropped in the New York Times a year ago. I think it's reasonable to say that like it would not have made a splash. It's only because it was happening in the midst of the well, in the midst of the post Iran war negotiations, but in the, you know the assault on Iran by America and Israel, that people were really interested in the subject matter, right Um So yeah, it is interesting. But here's my real question for you. When you look at a book like this, do you is this the political equivalent of the now they tell us story of the emptying the notebook? No one hundred percent I mean, yes, obviously just taking Netanyahu Yeah Why did we get into the Iran war? Why did that happen? Why was Trump who at least was performatively America first, An isolationist. Why was he then bombing country in the Middle East So of course it's now they tell us. Yeah. And to go back to your original point is that journalistically deffensible It's hard it's hard to it's hard to come up with a reason, right? If you and I were deeadline reporters Johnny deadlines here at the Ringer. And we were like, oh, I didn't put it on the website. I saved it for my book I don't know what my defense would be other than I want to write a book and I want to get paid for it. And maybe that is the best defense They don't pay us enough in journalism And the only way to make real money is to write a book Right? Like that's just how this works. L We're not becoming millionaires by writing words for a website or a newspaper. So if're to get a you're going to get real money you're going to get aook Yeah in that in that it at the end of the day rather than going through some kind of contortions to morally say, well, this is why I held this material. But I do think there is something about They get st, you get stuff for a book that you wouldn't get for the daily paper And sometimes I think it is interesting to get stuff and to come back and to come back and to come back and talk to more people, more and more people build a a bigger and more sophisticated picture. They talk about in the intro here that they sat down with Donald Trump for an hour and got to run lots of this stuff by him now Donald Trumpave you in that session I don't know. He probably confirmed some stuff. He might have denied some stuff, but he probably glued some things to the wall. He probably glued some things to the wall. I did a little this old house rightight in front of you there in the Oval Office All right number three in my list of notes here human tape recorder Mhm. When we read a book like this and I think of late period Bob Woodward in particular What happens, what has clearly happened is that the author has gotten the cooperation of one of the principles and the author has used onene of the principles to reconstruct scenes that happened in the White House or that happened with Big time government officials and that person has reconstructed dialogue from those things, which is often flattering to the source itself, right, the source himself or herself, right This book is not without Moments like that, there's a moment where Tucker Carlson is trying to talk Trump out of invading or at least bombing Iran. And there's like a pererfectly cogent paragraph Tucker Carlson is quoted as saying to Donald Trump And I'm like this either came from Tucker Carlson or it came from somebody that wanted Tucker Carlson to sound incredibly eloquent. in memory There are moments like that. But there are also moments where you're like canan't believe they got this stuff can't believe they got this level of detail. And I'll give you just one example. This is from Donald Trump's first call with. Vladimir Putin when he's back in the White House Putin professed that he wanted peace and invoked the cooperation between their countries during World War two. It's talking about the US and Russia, of course. We know how to work together, he told Trump, because we worked with Franklin Roosevelt to defeat the Nazis. This was a standard Russian talking point, but it seemed to resonate with the president Trump noted to Putin that while Russia was America's ally in World War twoI Guess who wasn't Germany. Now That's funny that Donald Trump is, you know beginning to understand World War two alliances in real time. Donald Trump has never played Axis and allies They have that kind of detail about meeting after meeting after meeting Pone call after phone call after phone call It's remarkable There's a report in AxiOos by Jim Van Dehyd and Mike Allen that the White House was afraid. that Habrman and Swan had gotten recordings of some of these meetings Uh We're actually using those recordings to render the dialogue, not going back to the participants and saying, what did you say? And then what did he say? I would be shocked if they did If he canot They did not becausecause my goodness, the details. from these calls, these meetings, these White House arguments, and of course, Trump loves a good White House argument, as long as it doesn't involve him as long as it involves his subordinates. Unbelieved part of the joy of reading this book. Wait, if you found out that there were no recordings Does that set off any journalistic integrity alarms in your head N integrity, but I think the precision of it It is tricky And again, they say all this at the beginning of the book. You go back to sources. There's certain sources you trust more than others What did so and so say during this meeting? What did so and so say during this meeting And if you're recreating like, Dialogue beyond one sentence, beyond we need plot twists Yeah. then It's going to be inexact peopleeople don't remember things word for word. Yeah So you take all that with a little bit of a grain of salt, but man It didn't feel like that in this. Mhm It doesn't. lastast note here And again, I use late period Woodward as my C You know, reading those books there' always be like so much biographical backfill about this White House advisor and that White House advisor? Sure Stephen Miller born Santa Monica and then just paragraph after paragraph and it's stuff that we all already know. Yep. It was written so joylously just like at like o Okay, okay. only the joy of the checks landing in your bank account. That is definitely the joy with which that was written And then you get to like one nugget or one little scene involving Stephen Miller Yeah One thing I appreciate about Hyman and Swan here is they've just dispensed with all of that Mhm The book's a little hirky jerky at times because it is written so leanly. If that's the prose is so lean. It has these little short sectsions go, boom, boom, boom, boom. For somebody who is plowing through books like this a lot I gott to say. It's not a short book. You're holding it up. It looked like it was like four hundred pages. Four hundred pages is correct You must have used to work in the book industry. Look a guy that U used to sell suits and could size somebody up just by What are you? forty two long Um Well, that's cool I mean, it you're doing a great sales pitch for this book, despite the fact that the authors are two of the greatest villains in American history, according to most more to come from regime change. Now do you think they have this is a this should be a question for me and from the publishing side, but do you think that they already have their deals for a book every year in the Trump administration That'd be amazing, right? Could you pull that off I mean, it would be unusual to have a four book deal just in general, but not for authors in you know, of this caliber and subjects of this magnitude. necessarily. But I bet there's an option. I mean, it's, you know, for both sides, it's like it' it's it's a contract option like in sports. It's like you kind of be crazy. I mean, if it's crazy to give it to a player or a writer if you don't need to But in publishing, everybody kind of wants first dibbs, you know, And if everything's working well, We'll just sign up that next one Do you think the interest would be there from readers Clearly, there's a ton of interest in this book and anything that Habr and Swan reported about Trump M Would you want four books? Would that seem like a lot ever could you just could you, you know, get get one out of every year of the Trump presidency that people would want to go by Yes I mean, would it be on the same level if you did it every year? There might be some diminishing returns I can tell you what there was a time when tres, right? Like diminishing returns versus what? I mentioned his name earlier. I mean know I know secondhand. I know from a source where I trust very much to use the Herman and Swan Parlance there was a time There was a time when James Patterson's publisher was begging him to stop publishing to try to publish two books a year. They couldn't say no to James Patterson because he meant too much to them But they're like, this is the way we do things in publishing is a fiction writer can only do one book a year And he said up yours he started publishing twelve books a year and now they're, you know, and they're all bestsellers, right? There was no there was no u You know, the readership did not get worn down by over publishing or anything like that. Um And I think Patterson said, I'll show you, I'll publish a book with Mr. Beast. Yeah. That's a real thing that's happening, by the way So what's a bigger get? that Bill Clinton written with Bill Clinton or written with Mr. Beast We should do a James Patterson co author Power rankings. Mike Lubica versus Mr. Beast versus Bill Clinton I was looking at the new Reese Witherspoon Harlan Cobin joint at Bernes and Noble the other day. We need to do a whole segment on that on these. Th theseese are so weird Oh yeah, we should. And I for the open Reue Harlan Cobin and you're doing this too now. James Patterson's kind of his own weather system, but Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zetbounds Ter zepatide may be able to help ZBound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. ZepBound is approved as a two point five, five, seven point five, ten, twelve point five, or fifteen milligram injection Zeepound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzeepotide containing products or any GLP one receptor agonist medicines. 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Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medulary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type two Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop zetbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If your' nursing, pregnant plan to be or taking birth control pills Taking zbound with a sulfinal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems to your doctor Call one eight hundred five four five five nine seven nine or visit zppbounds. liily. com Let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of turns out, it's more common than you'd think Pyrony's disisease, or PD for short PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve or a bump during an erection and for some men, lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lower self esteem, and even withdraw from sexual activity and physical intimacy. Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about PD The actual cause of PD isn't always known In some cases, it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity The good news is PD is treatable If you notice a curve with a bump trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it. walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment To learn more about Pironi's disease, visit talkaboutpD. com Aple more things to get to here before we go, David. Linda Cohen is retiring from ESPN. I' even see that Linda Coone. She joined ESPN according to the press release in July of nineteen ninety two. So she is from oldld sports center She's leaving. she has hosted the according to the press release here more sports centers anchored more itions of Sports Center than anyone in ESP in history Mhm. She was honored in twenty sixteen for hosting her five thousandth edition of Sports Center which is amazing I'm always fascinated by old ESPN, which in ESPN terms is like the nineties. Yeah And how much of that nostalgia ESPN is interesterested in retaining for itself Andne Patrick and Keith Oberman are gone. Berman still around. Yeah Primeime, Richizon's back in the house But I always wonder how important that is to SSBN aining those links to the past, even if the people are just doing stuff once in a while Linda Con is leaving Also, by the way, one time I had the pleasure of reading Linda Coh' memoir, which is called Conehead a no holds barred account of breaking into the boys cllub. And let me tell you something, as somebody who's read a lot of books by announcers, that's a hell of a book It's really good And it's Pretty raw about her life and her marriage and everything else and highly recommend that if you want to learn Let's also talk about Savannah Guthrie Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancyappared on February first Four and a half months ago She still has not been found There was a report yesterday from NBC's Tom Winter and Andrew Blankstein That was interesting. You remember the two notes were sent to media outlets in Tucson after Nancy Guthrie's disappearance remind me Well, as Winter and Blankstein write, the first note said Guthrie was safe and requested cryptocurrency in exchange for her release. Now they write the second note. Sent to media outlets following the disappearance indicated that she had died ain no apology or request for payment for the release of her body Other outlets reported that Nancy Guthrie had been buried according to this second note which you remember was one of theories here, because people couldn't figure out like how did this woman just disappear And why has there been no further contact? Oh, well maybe something happened to her And then whoever was trying to do this may have been trying to do this as a ransom demand or, you know, that kind of thing that just Hanakton disappeared from the face of the eararth I think this story is still so It hits us because We just don't believe that something like this could happen and there would be no trace of it electronically or otherwise Savannah Guthri is back on the Today showow this morning, calling for information. talking about the story, asking for closure. anyway, just an update there about Savannah and Nancy Guthrie fininally, David. We lost Mark Singer New Yorker writer, he was just seventy five years old Mark Singer is a fascinating guy. He spent Basically his entire career at the New Yorker. The New York Times Oit said he got there when he was twenty three years old. His book, Mr. Personality says twenty four suuffice it to say he was at that August magazine at a very young age Five people have edited the New Yorker Mark Singer wrote great stories for four of them And if I if I have no doubt that if he'd been a little bit older, Harold Ross would have absolutely enlisted him to write some one pagers for the original iteration of that magazine. I loved Reading Mark Singer. I got the sense from his prose that he was not a cuddly person That's interesting yah. His writing was sharp and smart and funny without being especially warm yearsars ago, I think this was two thousand seven I went to a New Yorker festival program when we were living in New York And it was Mark Singer and Susan Orleene Mhm on stage And Mark Singer was talking about writing profiles And he said something like You know, writing a profile is a total mugs game because you spend weeks and months rendering this person's life, especially if you're wring from New York weeks and months and getting all this detail and talking to all these people and then the story comes out. and it doesn't translate into a book most of the time There's nothing you've written, even if you've done your job right There's just nothing you can do with it Sure And I remember sitting in the audience And I was thinking Wow, that's kind of a gloomy. writerly take on the whole art of profile writing and then I remembered that wait a second, this program is about the art of profile writing is ' getting say like offering an anti advertisement from the stage. I know that I've I know that that he doesn't You know, he writes many things besides he wrote many things besides, you know, big profiles But the profiles are the things you remember I mean, maybe it's just maybe that's me but and it probably has a lot to do with the subject. I mean, certainly because Sing was with informing us, giving us a window into a lot of these subjects for the first time. Um and identifying really interesting subjects, you know, that that weren't necessarily really obvious Like the first thing I think of when I when I thought think of him is the Ricky J profile from God, I couldn't even guess a decade, let alone a year. Must have I would nineteen ninet nineties. Oh, good, I was right. Secrets of the Mages is what it's called and Well, more recently there was that big David Milch piece, more recently meaning like, when was that twenty years ago? I can't remember. But like he actually wrote two zero five. It was called the Misfit and then he wrote a follow up in twenty nineteen when Milch was diagnosed with dementia Yes. Okaykay. the zero five when I remember pieces of just they they're so incisive He's such an oddball, you know, milch. And and the way that he was drawn up was you're right, notot warm, but I think warmth would have done a disservice to him. It was was it was sort of perfect, perfect subject writer combination But those are the ones that I remember. I'm trying to think if there' is, I mean, like Uh What else was I mean, what else put spings to mind? Oh, the Arow Moris piece too Right? That's another profile But the one thing I really wanted to mention, which I'm sure is you're about to bring up is that he wrote a Tump piece way before Trump was a political figure. that I said that I that I read a couple of years ago and just thought was just absolutely just I mean, enlightening. I mean, what it was such an interesting piece. It's unbelievable. It's called Trumps Solo So Tina Brown er a piece that ran in nineteen ninety seven And I believe it was Tina's idea I don't think Mark Singer was looking to write a Trump profile at the time I'll just read you a little bit of this. This was written as Trump's marriage to Marla Maples was dissolving Mhm Listen to this aragraph and see if he did not capture something about Trump that peopleople including Maggie Habran and Jonathan Swan would be trying to capture decades later Of course, the comeback Trump is much the same as the Trump of the eighties. There is no new Trump just as there was never a new Nixon Rather all along, there have been several Trumps The hyperbole addict who prevaricates for fun and profit, the knowledgeable builder whose associates profess awe at his attention to detail. The narcissist whose self absorption doesn't account for his dead onability to exploit other people's weaknesses The perpetual seventeen year old who lives in a zero sum world of winners and total losers, loyal friends and complete scumbags. The insatiable publicity hound who courts the press on a daily basis, and when he doesn't like what he reads, attacks the messengers as human garbage chairman and largest stockholder of a billion dollar public corporation who seems unable to resist heralding overly optimistic earnings projections, which then fail to materialize, thereby eroding the value of his investment. In some a fellow both slippery and naive. art fully calculating and recklessly heedless of the consequences Recognize that person That's Donald Trump I just googled that why you were reading that And the photo that accompanies the story is just Trump you know, a much thinner Younger Trump standing at a, you know, presumably on the on his golf course in Florida jumpinging in the air leaping with his legs with his legs spreading in like a V. like a physical act that you would be shocked to know that Trump could do at all, let alone for a New Yorker photo shoot. incredible It's an incredible photo to runon in front of an unflattering piece. Singher would also write in that piece that Trump had aspired to and achieved the ultimate luxury and existence unmolested by the rumbling of a soul Mhm There's a David Remnick story that he's very well known for called The Man who Forgets Nothing about Martin Scorsese It's a great read about Martin Scorsese's mind I'll tell you the pieces that always that I come back to for Merc Singer are ones that are collected in his book, Mr. Personality. Yeah These are about his early years as the New Yorker. They are mostly written under William Shaan he would write pieces that I I think you would describe as being on the Joe Mitchell, AJ Liebling peopleeople found in and around New York City beat But he's a very, very different writer than both of them, especially Mitchell He wrote a piece about this guy named Ruben Levine, who's a violinist And he would stand outside of Broadway houses playing his violin for money But the thing is Rubin Levine was a terrible violinist. L by his own estimation, he could not do anything. He knew like parts of something like thirty thousand songs, but he would just butcher them And then he would have this comedian style reparte about why they should still give him money, even though he just butchered the song This piece is called Wing and It's unbievable. Another piece about Buff Benjamin Sheine, who used to go to Cadman Plaza, remember Cadman Plaza in Brooklyn. ye and just watch murder trials. And he was seventy five years old. And the thing about these pieces is you can imagine funun piece in a newspaper about such a person even a talk story in the New Yorker But Singer would write a full blown profile. of these guys gave them this great sort of majesty. and I'd read his pieces and I remember you'd read them and it would start You know, in a certain way, often in an a resting way, but the piece would just seem to grow as you read it I read it and the person would seem to become bigger. and that was always really cool about him Marking was never