Journalism and DC Life

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And it's the one night where you don't swing to make contact to make history. I'm interested is who what Bon says about this actually. Anyway, it is all live from Citizens Bank Park In Philly, watch the T mobile Home rununs every be live on Netflix Monday, july thirteenth at eight PM Eastern five PM Pacific Hello media consumers. Wlcome to PressBox Thursday. in his usual seat is Joel Anderson What's up, man? Good to see you Good to see you too. also back in his usual seat, producer Isaiah Blakeley Coming up on this year podcast Horters Spent the week, Joel Trying to analyze a peace deal with Iran that the Trump administration would not let them see We discuss Plus which ESPN personalities are big enough to get in a fight with their colleagues We asked the burning question about the World Cup Does anyone like Fox' Alexi Lawis And New York magazinees's Ben Terrist stops by to talk about his new piece about Biden come back Plus the riddle of John Fetterman M, much more. But let us begin with the Irondi. All. This was truly a strange moment in journals Yeah Because for the better part of three days, the Trump administration was saying We've made a fantastic deal But you can't see it Several people inside journalism, inside politics made the point This was really such a great deal Wouldn't Donald Trump have put it on true social immediately I think so. how many I'm trying to remember back in the days when Obama did the Iran deal, D we did that make its way? Did we get full access to it O the MOU that everybody the memorandum of understanding. I love MOU because I feel that's one of those journalism terms we all pretend that we always knew what that meant. rememember like when the war in Ukraine started, we all knew immediately that it was Ukraine, not the Ukraine and it was Kyiv, not Kiev. We go to this instant level of Understanding MOU felt like that for me yesterday. We all become geopolitical experts via the New York Times international desk, of course. There were some things that dribbled out about this. It would be interesting to go back and look at the Obama deals you say. I feel like the parameters were at least more in the public domain. It also complicates this is that Donald Trump has said ninety thousand things about the Iran war Right I mean, how do you keep that's the thing? I never know how to keep up on this stuff because sometimes there's it looks like a deal is pending, then a deal is off, or Rron says no, he's lying. So that was one of those things Following the developments in this story, I've been like, well Eventually'll they'll let us know when they finalized all of this, but I didn't know who to trust along the way. I felt exactly the same way. I woke up every morning and Axios was reporting that The deal was done. Yeah. it will be announced any minute now and then I was like, oh wait, the deal is not done. All of a suddenbody's attacking Lebanon or something, you know what I mean? So totally. Jadie Vance has been making the rounds for his book. Here's Nora O'Donnell pushing the vice president for a reason Why wasn't that memorandum of understanding made public? potential deal with Tehran. The president says he wants to put this war in the rear view mirror. And yet this framework remains silent. Why not allow the world to see whatever this deal is that you signed? Y, so there are some frankly, diplomatic protocols that I don't fully understand. The Qataris and the Pakistanis who have been helpful in mediating this agreement with the Iranians They've asked us not to release the full text for a little while that it'll come out at the latest on Friday. We're actually trying to push them to get it out today because we want to tell the American people what's in this deal It's like the Epstein it's like the Epstein bllack book or Epstein Back you know, San Epstein dresslist or whatever. add dress book. so I'm sure we'll see it any day now. Do we really believe the Trump administration would accept that from Pakistan and Qatar They are telling us when we can memorandum of understanding. Yeah, right, that they're following they're taking they're taking orders from them or following their lead on this. Get out of here. The other thing I thought about is and you've brought this up a lot This is a kind of a losing assignment for JD Vance, right? Like whereere's Marco Rubio? in this I mean, I know Makarubia has a lot jobs, you know what I'm saying? And so wouldn't this ostensibly fall under his List of responsibilities Yes. And he went MIA on the MOU early this we like that. Yeah. Nobody could find them And then when Trump was answering questions that the G seven He was standing stone faced behind the president when Fox' Peter Doocey asked this question There's some element to this where you send the vice president If it works out Great Youll look like a genius for sending him. And if it doesn't work out It's the Vice president. I like that idea, sh, B This way if it works out, I'm gonna take the credit. If it doesn't work out, I'm blaming JD. You better be careful, JD. He's going to turn his plane around and get the hell out of here. Yeah. I like that idea. I think it's a good idea. I mean, that stri me down, but isn't that the charming Trump? Is that the actual likable Trump like, Yeah, I'm actually going to blame JD Vance. Yeah, right. And I mean, but sometimes he just says the thing and you know, I remember there was this really great clip that Van had on CNN once. where he said W you guys, you know, you guys say sometimes we you shouldn't take Trump says literally or seriously. and he says,, can you all just let us know like what's a joke and what's not, right? U, because we know, you know, usually when the president says something, you're supposed to take it seriously. Like this is a sober peopleeople have died You know,' part of this war. So usually it's supposed to be sort of a sober ending to a bloody conflict, but we just how do we I think he may have told the truth. He may have been joking, but I I mean I think there's probably some truth in that joke. There's a ton of truth. Yeah. Eespecially as Jie Vance begins running for president, which I guess he already has since he's been on the view this week. But as he starts doing that And the whole question of are you putting any space between you and Donald Trump as Kamala Harris tempted to do with Joe Biden and then I guess in the end refuse to do it with Joe Biden. As soon as that idea comes forward Donald Trump is going to be laughing about blaming JD or're not laughing about it a lot more. S we can see that come Absolute. I mean, look, man. The last vice president, I mean, look how that, you know, it There's not Trump is not going to throw his body in front of anybody. likeike's that's just never going to happen. So yeah, JD, you I mean, you're up, you're up next, you know? Here's how the deal to end the war with Iran finally came out on Wednesday. It was Red read on a conference call by an unnamed administration official These are the ground rules. We'll give you the memorandum of understanding we're going to read it to you on a conference call and you can't say who read it to you? Crazy Fascinating. New Yeor Tes. printed the read out of that call And then interestingly went piece by piece through the memorandum and showed how the things that Donald Trump was agreeing to were things that he said he wouldn't agree to. when he was actually waging moreower I mean Look, man Um I mean, again, there's a reason that they've been sort of cagey about the details of this thing, right? It is sort of an interesting tactic though to do it to release the news that way like people don't have the capacity to record it. or you know what I mean? like transcribe it later. L I mean, we're going to find out. so it just doesn't I mean, nothing has to make sense, right? Why am I asking why they're doing something that doesn't make sense? becausecause that is sort of the the through line in this administration It was interesting I saw the New York Times editorial board come out with a piece almost immediately saying that the U S. lost the Iron warar. Yeah You and I grew up. as children of the Vietnam generation Oh, yeah Do you remember how dicey it used to be to say that the United States lost any war I think didn't really become s safe to say until maybe a generation or two afterward because even when they were doing like, you know, Vietnam movies like the, you know, the eighties, you know, Hamburger Hill, pllatoon, all that other sort of stuff that those movies didn't really get into who oneon who lost just that it sucked, right And But now people are like, o, yeah, we kind of, you know, we didn't win, right as we said about Vietnam. But to us for somebody to say we outright lost. I mean, that would have been I mean, that would have been a serious breach of like news of news protocol too, like to just say, oh, there was a winner and losing here in America is it. Like it would have been shocking twenty years ago for anybody who said that It just took Iraq and Afghanistan and now Iran for everybody to feel comfortable, saying, yeah, we just we lost the war. Well, that's what it is. I mean, it helps that his political his ostensible political allies are the one saying it Right now. L from like Nick I was watching Nick Fuente' clips the other day, Brian Yeah. Yeah, Ben Shapiro other elected GP like they're the ones who are letting people know mostly anonymously because, you know, they're scared. that they're furious about this deal So maybe that's what gives people the the amount of cover that they need to say, all right, we lost And within that criticism Have you noticed pushing it onto JD Vance Lindsy Grahamsweet the other day, J D Vance, the architect of this deal hiding Fascinating. I mean, yeah, man. I just again, you know, with no honor amongst such as such and such. so yeah. Let's talk about a much less serious fight. One an ESPN Yeah Vincent G goodw Your friend, He was just on the press box. That's right, Venny He became the main character on sports Twitter. He listens to this show too. so I know it's going to be I can't wait to hear from him after this, but yeah On ESPN's get upp, he was talking about parody in the NBA. Be in the last eight years, we've had eight different NBA champions. Is that good Here's goodoodwill on G upp I like to know that greatness is validated How do we know that any of the last eight champions are actually validated because they have not done it again? Yonas is itching to get out. Boston is thinking about trading Jayalen Brown. They don't believe in their one championship. LeBron's one championship in LA was not enough. So why would it be enough For us Validate is the Larry O'Brien that I put on that shelf and stays there forever. That's the validation. The Laker thing. Oh you mean a participation trophy down. I'm sorry, Lry O'Brien is a participation if everybody gets one, It is an actual trophy. You won the league that year That's tough. Yeah. Well look, I was waiting to see what you would say. The thing is is that I and just, you know, to be you know transparent here, I've talked about this with Vinny a little bit, you know, I think it was just he made a joke. or made like an artful comment that he that's a joke you make among friends or on text. Right? And I can imagine being on set there. you're just kind of being loose. You got to try to be loose because you want to project and you want to give the sense of like authority, but also that like this is not a rigid conversation. So you're having fun. So I don't think he literally believes that winning the Larry O'Brien trophy is a participation ribbon And I actually sort of do agree with his larger point that None of those franchises like they're happy about winning a championship then like Within a year or two, it's like, oh man, theel people look at the Celtics and they say, well That young corps didn't get it done. or nobody looks at Bron's tenure at the Lakers and say that went great because they won the Bubble Championship, right or Yokes. only only has one championship. So I get what he was trying to say, but I also understand why Nework f New York Knicks fans would be very sensitive about that since they've waited so long to get it. And so those are the people who've mostly been yelling at him. which is a person who doesn't like being yelled at on the internet, I understand any NBA player that won a championship be sensitive about saying you got a participation trophy for winning the finals for being Wemy for beating The Celtics bing whomever? Oh yeah, absolutely I totally I get why they would be like, what the hell are you talking about? This is the hard this is what every like if you just start from the premise that every most young boys growing up love basketball, like playing it. and from that pool of millions of people, you get to the very top of the pyramid and you win, that does not feel like a participation ribbvent. And so if you want it, I could understand being sensitive about it. Now the thing is and I've talked about this before is the The problem is that people don't know how to disagree agreeably And it's like gets into name calling and You don't deserve this job and all this other stuff. Like I just that's the part that and I think Vinny would say that he takes the most offense to, not that people disagree with him, but it's just the tenor of the disagreement And isn't that because participation trophy has become such a radioactive term M in our society is so craz you so much It is so crazy. I mean, I just I remember getting participation ribbons as a kid and it just was not a big deal. Like I just, yeah, you're right. It has become sort of like a red line in sports with the Leono. wantan to participate in ribbon either, you wantna lost, but it's just like, yo, I got them As a kid and everything and it was not a big deal Let me tell you something. I played you sports and unlike you, I sucked sports and every year They would give me a little trophy. I can still see in my mind. I'm sure it's somewhere in my mom's house still. They would give me a little trophy. Oh yeah. that signified Brian has played soccer this year or more to the point Brian put on the uniform and tried to kick the ball this year. Yeah. And I put those up Proudly in my childhood bedroom. I was genuinely proud of a participation trophy. Absolutely. I mean there's something about getting to doing something that maybe you don't excel at. and getting to the end of it. Like there's something to be said for doing it and sticking with it and getting to the end of it. Now, my wife would be surprised to hear me say this because she often is like I'll be like, man What would it be like if you just weren't good and kept playing sports? I probably would stop. You know what I mean? Like I just like, are you playing for a two and eight football team? Like wow, that That must be horrible. Why did you whyy did you keep doing it, you know But I get it, you know what I'm saying? I get that like there's nothing wrong with telling people that you know did something and you got in it. You may not have been the best, but there is value in the attempt and. Absolutely. Yeah I remember this one year I'm pretty sure this was first grade and this is probably my final year of soccer Mhm. And I remember I had light blue uniforms And Again, like for me to like contact the ball was probably massive victory One game. I kicked the ball really hard like I was a full back, which is where you hide the less talented people in you soccer. And I and, you know, here comes here it comes and I kicked it hard. I think it went out of bounce and for some reason parents my jersey to place it puts letters on the back and this is in the eighties. So this was not this was harder back then than now Yeah hard. And put the name Thunderfoot onn the back of my person I love that. Thnderf. Thunderfoot, You kicked the ball hard one time and I was just so proud of that. I thought that was so cool. Oh man, and you know what? I don't I don't understand when people have kids L I understand now that like, you know, they're not going to be the best at everything and I want them to just try Right Like I don't Yeah. I don't have the expectation. like I tell my like I don't have the expectation that my son's going to be the fastest ten year old in the country at some point, right? Like that's just not dad's legacy. That's not reasonable. That's not a thing. But it doesn't matter. L I just want him to try and develop a good work ethic and learn how to work with people and to make have some fun times. Like that's the big thing about all this. And so yeah, like running from the idea of the participation ribbon is just sort of ridiculous to me because I know everybody. I see people on the street. I know I played against a bunch of kids I know a bunch of y'all were not great athletes. I wasn't even a great. I was a good athlete that, you know, I kept on. Well I mean I kept out at a certain point. You play college football, you're a great athlete. Play is a strong word. but I but I kept out You don't set it a certain point. And so I'm just like, who are you to sit up here and denegrate a participation ribbon. likeike it's fine. okay? That's probably what you got. And so people are it's like you know, stolen valor. like because Jayalen Brunson win a championship that does not make you a champion Now we bring up Mr. Goodwill Yes, because Kendrick Perkins. Yeah Texas is very own, Kendrick Perkins. Beaumont, Texas his own He was on the Road triripping podcast, which he does with Richard Jefferson and Channing Fryy And he had a response to Vinnie Goodwell It's the shit that pisses me off. is sometimes when you're on television, and you get in the moment and youre feelill in the table You go say some bullshit out your mind That was a bunch of bulls shit It was all the way disrespectful And when I heard them said, the first thing came to mind is that Oh, your ass never was athlete then You couldn't have never participated or been a basketball player or played on anybody's team talalking that type of nonsense Nonsense. That was the most ainide thing that I've ever heard And if you're a person that hooped at any level and one at elite level. I mean one at elite level on any level Then you know that shit hard as hell I don't give a damn if you can't repeat you know, see, that's what I was talking about disagreeing without being disagreeable There's no need to talk like that about Vinnie, right? Like you can disagree. You can disagree with it and say, hey, look, I don't I've won an NBA championship, Kingon Perkins, who's been a great basketball player since he was a high school player, right? And then won an NBA championship with the Celtics And I played for another championship with the Thunder Right? And like there's just no need to undercut your colleagues Um, resume to do it. And I remember Harard Brian always talks about the gyocracy a little bit, which just like very if you are a black male in sports media and ESPN, it is very hard to get on there if you're not an athlete. Like if you have not been some sort of athlete Is that They're being pretty much, you know, winnowed out of the industry now. And so I don't know I know Kendr Perkins is not aware that phenomenon But like it just really hits home that I'm just like, oh, like you're trying to undermine your colleagues's credibility because he wasn't an NBA player. But Vinny is a very good reporter and has very good sources and I'm not just saying that because that's my dog, but because he's at ESPN and he's the Nick beat writer. and he's on first takeake. Like hes he's been rewarded for how good he is at it. And so I just again, I don't dont I like Perk a lot. I really do. I love his the way he talks. I love Wisrank. you know, I have my heart goes to him because I met him when he was a high school kid and I spent time with him in Beaumont Ging up U but I just that's just totally unnecessary. That's beyond the ple. donon't you think Well I got two reactions. First of all, I love perks U of the phrase feel in the table. Yeah, if we ever have a just pure sports media podcast, it needs to go feeling the table. How much of modern sports media is feeling the table? Feeling the table Number two, I would have just loved to have seen this confrontation on ESPNs air Because to me, even if you get overly personal about it, even if you get into the hey, you didn't play, you have this is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. I would just love to see Goodwill get to stick up for himself Man, talk it out because I think when you do that, you actually get to a better place You get to he's what I meant by that. And by the way, doesn't wants to go address this on his podcasts. That's fine. That's what we all do. right? We don't all say Hey, I'm going to wait until I actually see this person in front of me before I get there. Yeah. But I would actually have just liked to have heard this discussion. You know, that it is interesting you say that because remember when Ryan Clark and Peter Straaker had some version of this dispute on the air and people didn't like it though when it happened. Like it seemed really uncomfortable weird. Yeah And Ryan Clark had to apologize later Right? Um, But yeah, I mean, I don't I do wonder if Perk would have said that. Not that he was afraid of anything or anything. I just wonder if he would have said it like that in front of him. I mean, he couldn' have said this shit pizisses me off. on first take, but you know, presumably the other stuff maybe he could have talked about there brought up an idea form Okay bout SPN. Yeah, and about going after your colleagues. Yeah. Who is big enough at ESPN now to be able to get in fights with their colleagues and have it be okay with the people that run the network make a list. Okay. You want to start at the top? Stephen A McAfeee, sixty million dollars man U ye Can Ryan Clark do it Denrlovski A. So I think that's in a different tier Okay The tier I'm talking about is They say something. Yeah And if management calls it all management calls and says everything good They don't get mad at them. They decid just checkking in. everythingvery okay Yeah, yeah, yeah. likeike like like were you were you upset by the fact that you had to get an argument we never say don't do that because we don't feel like we could step in with Stephven A or McAfee. Right. man. That's that's aier I want. I mean I don't know if we're counting Charles Barcley and the inside crew is ESPN people, but they would certainly be on this tier. They could do that. U Joe and Troy. I was not Tro power that way, but I think yes, I think Troy could do that if he wanted to. You could do it, okay U, is anybody Is anybody beath I'm trying to think I was trying to think of anybody on like NFL coverage Well, there are a lot of people who would just never use their power this way Mhm Like if SVP was upset I think he would get the everything good call from Mike Fosser Burke Magnus, I don't think he would be like, how dare you, sir. But he would just, he's never going to go after his colleagues like that in public. Gy Greeny would never do it continuously. But he could probably get I mean I I could see him, you know, yeah probably being able to to get away with it though The tier that's interesting to me is the Orlovsky perk tier Speakers Yeah, I mean those people are very, very integral to ESPN. But if there was anything that was like a personal attack against another ESPN, a fellow employee a fellow ESPN talker. I think that would be that'd be interesting to me. Thats that's the one I have questions about what the thing is you wouldn't think they'd get in trouble necessarily, but they would have to have a conversation about it and be strongly encouraged to apologize. It wouldn't be the everything good conversation. Yeah, no, no, no. It's like, hey, look, we up on a call. Yeah We prefer you not do that Um, and, you know, like that's just not how we want to conduct ourselves And he said, hey, Steven, they can do it and they' be like, well, hey That's Stehven A Smith.. We didn't put Herbie on the list, but he did go after Orl loobski for the Justin Field stake back in the day. That's right. He sure did That's fine. And again, that was about that was about an issue. He was like, I just think you're completely mischaracterizing this guy. played with hurt ribs in the college football playoff. that was a pretty bad mischaracterization Folks have gone after Mil Kuiper before too, right? Like on that panel. like not not necessarily hard but just been like, you know I disagree with him on this. like particularly like the Shador Sanders stuff. Mel doesn't seem to mind too much. I think that's his wheelhouse. Like he's like bring it on, you know That was all good Do you know was one of the first times I ever saw this and I thought it made me uncomfortable? and this is, you know, early two thousands. Ralph Wiley was writing for SPN d. com right? But When Jason Whitlock used to go after Scoop Jackson, Now people don't remember like Jason Whitlock wasn't always like a right wing provocateur. Like he was just sort of a firebrand columnist out of Kansas City who just, you know, took his stances and whatever, but he like would diggrate like Soop Jackson over and over again. I was like Is that okay to do for real? Like I just didn't it kind when he was at ESPN when Willock was at ESPN? W W at ESPN? Maybe it was a little bit before. That's right because I'm trying to remember when he finally got there. Was it didid he only get there through the undefeated No, because he was on PTI for years before that. Yeah. No he was he was was he on page two first? I can't remember. was maybe a whole a whitlock category of theSPN. Oh in the recent Stehven A one because I just That that's sort of a different category of intermurals Lebotard has had some run inss with guys like from Cal Heard, the Sip Baylist, You know, even some of the reporters, I think I don't think it wasdam Scheter, but there was somebody along those lines and he had kind of like He was very critical of them on air and they wouldn't even come on air. Like, o like here and J. Billlis, they had an on air tusssel So Differe eras's interesting too. L the John Skpper era feels very different than the Jimmy Pataro era. Yeah. And how much and I'm one of these people like I think the go to take about ESPN is all these people are arguing on there all the time. It's just Stehven A yelling I think if you and I watched ESPN from morning to night, that'd actually be a very, very small percentage That's not happening on NFL live. Absolutely. That's not happening really all that much on, you know, ever on SVP's Midnight spports center People are not calling people out and talking that way And it's almost like to me What ESP needs is not less argumentation, it's more room for arguments that are about real things Right. Right, right, right. Just more rigorous informed debate Right. Even if that got hot, I would watch that because it's really about something Do you think about something meaningful? Is that what is it that what PTI is or I mean, that's what PTI was supposed to be, right? Yes. But I feel like they're very tongue in cheek about You know, the idea that they're even on television in a wonderful way. Yeah, right. They're like they're not standing up on the on the they're not feeling the deskrickberg say Yeah feeling the table What was it feeling the table? Feilling the table. Fill at the table. I mean, it's a new segment. I love this so much. It's it's like what if Siskle and Ebert were actually friends? That's PTI Yeah, and and I just think like in a way, they're kind of like They've always had this great sense of, you know, we're on television We obviously care about this stuff. But it's not a death match R Even Cisko and Eber had the feel of a death match, but it was about real things, you know, like this is a good movie, this is a bad movie, and we're taking this very, very seriously. you can't even hear that on podcasts very muchmore Oh no, not even. Not even Hey, do you think we're allowed to do this at the Ringer? Like I mean, I would like would if you really disagree with Bill's take on his top fifty NBA players of all time. And it is absurd that Jayen Brunton,' you know I don't feel that Iree with some. when you're not filling the table that's what you're.' not filling the table at all, Bill, I'm not disagreeing with you. You're asking are we in the tier? Yeah, who are the tier people at the ringer that can go? This is danger. Van is, I think Van Van is in the tier. I don't do anything. He's a favorite' like me saying it, but yeah ' of announcing. I don't know how much World Cup action you've been watching. You know what? Usually I'm a big World Cup guy, but I have not had a chance to kind of ramp up like I would want to so far. I did watch some of the opener USAvers, Paraguay, but that's about it so far. What about you Well Shoemaker and I were saying this on Tuesday Wor Cups Pretty fantastic sporting event that you can just walk into It's a lot like the NCA tournament where you don't necessarily have to have a lot of knowledge about the sport to enjoy it. Oh ye Like yesterday, I'm looking at Twitter as one does. and I'm like Portugal and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Oh ye. Y are Congo, as it was called yesterday on television over and over again, are tied Here we go. Yeah, amazing. mazing, right? And I look at that match and I'm like I know who Cristiano Ronaldo is I don't know who anybody else on the pitch is can get I can watch that match and immediately enjoy it I know who the favorite is. I know who the Cinderella is. I'm going to root for the Cinderella. hereere we go Congo's fourteen seed. you know I'm saying? Yeah their East the what is it Murray State or Austin P. Yeah. there you go That match was called by Darren Fletcher and Owen Hargreves on Fox I love this. Listen to some of these analogies Okay we're using to describe BR Congo's defense is the equivalent in the NFL of a shipnail corner the Oandasnt it? Is that Redis Island here? so they call it one Visaker Island?' so good Was that the first Revis Island reference in this year's World Cup? They that's I'm not that's not a deep cut because Reus is a Hall of Fame corner, but that's pretty good. It was great. You could tell you know, the American audience, we understand You may not Brian and Joel, you may you may be speaking to us directly. We're trying to bring up to speed Absolutely. We're trying to break. We're just going we're going to hold your hand Mhm extra time, a Congolese player was closed lined at midfield Yeah, clothes line. Here is Darren Fletcher with an analogy that every American understands, you'll hear him pick it up After they chat with the rules expert. The arm does come up, but when you see it from another wrangle, his arm' in a natural position and it doesn't really move. We said does go into that arm, but the arm doesn't come out like a clothes line, it doesn't come fully extended. So itia has to analyze it as it is and it's certainly not violent conduct. arm extended out in a violent way. It was glassed up in the promis an attack. Glass that's h co in a Sis slam. I'm notving that I started to imagine I said that arm' not in a natural position. clothesline the moment Holkogan not at WrestleMania, but Hulkogan at Sumerslam. Oh man. I' diving deep for the American audence. I mean, they are going back, man. I appreciate it Darren Fletcher was fantastic and the game incredibly opinionated Mmm funny Roic, you could hear him scoffing while the rules analyst was talking there I mean, man, you know, soccer ye, I mean, I don't I don't know enough about the game. or even like you know, the culture of announcing in other countries, but I feel like it's a rollicking good time whenever I hear them calling a game Absolutely. Yeah it was yesterday. Now, speaking of a rolic and good time or perhaps the opposite. Okay I regret to inform you Oh Everyone hates Fox stududio announcer Aexe Lallis That certainly seems to be like I have not seen a positive social media post about him He's been the lead analyst of Fx since twenty fifteen. Yeah. He's part of Fox's big star theory of hiring. They call these guys no Chirron necessary baseball whoo we going get? I know, Derek Jeter. Y so. Football, who we going gonna get? I know Tom Brady And I've talked to people over there and they've said, we do this on purpose because if you don't know anything about this sport, You can look at Fox coverage to be like, I know who that. I recognize that person and Alexi Lawless is that person for soccer You want of the big names Right, if you ask nineties, Brian and Joel Uhu. who let's face it knew nothing about sock Despite my legacy of Thunderfoood The US nineties Brian and Joel nameame an American soccer player I bet you and I could have come up with Mia him U ye, brandy chest aim Maybe Julie Foudy. Maybe Julie Fuddy, yeah and Alexei Lo Yeah, that's fun.ould you have gotten to Kobe Jones You know what? I Maybe Kobe Jones because, you know, look, man, you know, and the black community bro, we take If you're doing something in a sport that we're not often in, like you're going to get a little bit more pub in the community, you know what I'm saying? So Kobe Jones, that's a good pull. Yeahah, probablyro Kobe Jones. Alexi is part of the Fx studio crew with the excellent Rebecca Low, Tierion R and Latan Ibrahimovich There's so many moments here. I don't know what to I almost didn't know what to pick, but this is what Lawless had to say about James Corden, who's doing World Cup late Night for Fox I soold himem for a second. Oh, I mean What you guys call him Polket wanker, right? or whatever means we're in that? it's all dressed up and ready to go? You did just say? Yes. Okay. Lucky on American television there the W wor on British TV Did you know Wanker was a nuclear word on British television. you know I know that it's not good, but I just I guess I didn't know the scale of it, right? Like I know that that's if they call you that you should probably take offense to it, but yeah, I didn't realize it was like, is that like MF that the red line was drawn there? Yeah. Did you? No, I did not know that at all. lots of of slights and moments of awkwardness as well, especially between Lawlis and Ibrahimovich Listen to this one. U just just just again, imagine four people there, including Rebecca Low listen to how this is put And All adrenaline is passing the body And we are just waiting for the game and I see here around everybody is getting a little bit nervous. Except for me andily, we're used to the backstage. Now there are three former soccer stars, man there. And can you imagine if we were doing a three man weave with you and me and David And I said, you know, big time journalism, a lot of people would We' get nervous. A lot of people wouldn't be able to handle it. but Joel and I have a lot of experience in this. Yeah, that's a dis Zi cannot hold you back. He does not like him I mean, that's That's one of the great things. It's very difficult for him to restrain his like sort of resentment of him. It really is. And when I hear people on television, to each other and then I see everybody go to social media. He really, he secretly hates that person. Yeah. It's almost always bullshit I'm always always like, you know, the people who are on television or who are on a podcast They're acting. Right? They really don't feel this way. They're acting. That's this part of the game But I don't know, I've watched this and I'm like, it doesn't seem like acting to me. Well, yeah, I mean, remember there was a lot of scuttlebud about whether or not Richard Jefferson hated Doris Burke or if they didn't like each other. There was no guessing with this. Like it was pretty much all out there on the table, you know Lallace is a specimen we don't see all that often on a studio show. An announcer who apparently has no fans. I mean, that is becoming a fox specialty. Isn' that why they put Dave Portnoy on their college football coverage, right? here's here's the difference. Yeah, that's the thing. I think there are a lot of people like I hate that guy, but also and say I want to see what that guy says next. Yeah. You're right. And look some people do, I mean a lot of people clearly like him. I mean, they like his pizza reviews and all that sort of stuff. So yeah that's That's a good point. Yeah, who who else would rival him for that? Like who's there Who do you have on that list? Okay, so I consulted with some sports media friends. Okay, that' remain unnamed. And here is the list posossible cs. Okay. People who had long careers in media despite no evidence that they had fans of their television work. You better not say Reie Miller but go ahead. Reggie Miller's not on the list. Okay, all right, good.. You and I are weirdly, that's our most. controversial takeouts. Yeah that he's not that bad. Yeah. you know? And you know what? when they when the ESPN crew didn't go get Darren Fox for trying to do that hero layup at the end of the game that costs the sppurs. Reggie Miller would' have gotten there. You would say something. Reggie Miller would have said something Here's my list. Okay. Bill Sims M I think late career Phil Sims head had no television defenders. You know what man, That is a really good one because I mean, it was bad at the end. Yeah in the booth and it was bad on the studio show. Yeah, you're right. That is man. that's a really good one. good pull. okay Tony Denji I mean difficult, right? Because I think there are a lot of people who are warm towards Tony because of like how he lived his life and he was sort of a soft spoken guy But is the issue like we don't want to see you on TV or we don't like you Therefore, we don't want you on TV Yeah, I don't think he had go away energy Yeah, like Lawace does. Yeah Here's a weird one because I think this will strike a lot of people as surprising, but If you were around during the NBA on NBC hydayay. Mm during the nineties and two thousands. I know who you're gonna to say. I know o man. Bill Walton was this guy I Walton was a troll on that. I mean, I'm sorry, like this is not the bayatific Bill Walton who appeared later Okay, low wated college basketball games that everybody loved. You know what? No one was was on there to piss people off Man, you know what? I'm going back in my memory bank. Okay. Yeah. What'd you think I was gonna say? I thought you would say Peter Vessi Oh Yeah, that's an interesting one though. He was I feel like he was a reporter Yeah, I mean, he was more was not a pundit. but sometimes I don't feel like people are mad at Peter Vessy like that. S def He was kind like controversy. Yeah He was controversial, but I don't feel people were like switching off the Bill Wen was calling the finals, that was a very controversial period in American life I missed Bill Walton RP Here's another name I got. and this was kind of looking for it as a potential No fans guy Russell Wilson on CBS as fall Oh man. Oh dude, that is a good one. So what you put Tiki Barber in there then didki Ti is another one? Tiki Barber like was like Tiki on every show. rememember that? They tried. They tried so hard to make that work and it just did not It's on morning television. Yeah, man. Not even football tele but morning television I mean, when he stepped out of TV When we stepp out of football, it was just like, oh, he's going to be the next big media guy. He's going to be the star And it just did not work out like that at all. Was't it funny that Michael Strahan from the same team became the guy that everybody thought Tiki Barara was going to become. I mean, it's true. It is. that's so It's so amazing that Michael Strahan is that guy. Like his life is as fascinating. You know, he's a TSU grad. I think he went to Westbury High School in Houston Um, Yeah, just for him to have a cun the guy because also like I mean, he was just like a big, not a of, but just kind of like a I don't know how to explain it, but like he was a defensive in and I don't remember him coming off as particularly friendly in interviews, but I didn't interview him all the time. But you I mean, I didn't see him interviewed all the time, but like he didn't come off as particularly friendly, but now he's like you know He's friendly enough for morning television. Absolutely. Yeah. My wife' a charisma. he can do lots of different things on television. Yeah, he's had a great career. My wife doesn't like many people and doesn' watch a lot of sports, but she likes Michael Straighthand. I think also she has presh on, but that's All right, One more name. Okay. This might be the best one. Okay. came from Ben Cp of awful announcing. He tweeted this out. Okay Mark May Wait That you know what That's the one. That's the one. That's the one That's the one. Wait, hold on then because that makes me think of Trev Alberts. Ooh, that's another great one. U. Trev Albert's era of ESPN. Yeah ye. Wow. Man, Trevor Albertts Mark b. Why did ESPN do that to people? I enjoyed the thing is I enjoyed that show with Har and Lou Holz at the end of the night. I look forward to that show The whole sub game day tier of USP and college football was fascinating because it was always like, why are the game day guys getting all the attention? We're just as good as they are. Oh yeah. I mean that was just a lot of weirdness. Yeah college football final, man. That was yeah, those I mean, it wasn't There wasn't the Chitlin circuit but yah it's not the same thing as being on game dayay at all I looked into a little bit why people are so mad at Alexi Lawless. Okay. A couple reasons came up. One is he's just not as good as the other two guys on the panel I read a piece by James Dader in SP Nation who said, Hey, you know, Fox has Clint Dempsey on the rost who had a much better bigger career in Europe h He could be on there if they need an American Another reason is He feels very nineteen ninety four You know Again, go back to young Brian and young Joel who knew nothing about the sport.. Americans now do not feel they need an American ambassador to the beautiful game. They feel like they know soccer well, right? They want to see the real stars there. It's different now. Yeah. That's right That's right. Yeah the European part of it mayaybe would matter more now They're like, Ohh, no, that dud was a real star, not just on the American soccer team, but like he went over there and excelled. whereereas like we didn't, you know, Americans don't give a shit about What our athletes do over in Europe, you know? alsoso laawless right wing Twitter account. Was that the twenty twenty four Republican convention? Yeah. Well that's that. from people away. Yeah. I mean, that's I'm surprised people hold that against them in this environment, but ye I could I could see how that would work, yeah. And maybe there's a fan base out there that he has, you know, gathered through his political beliefs that you and I just aren't privy to. Maybe there is't. I'm saying like a silent majority, if you will. That's what I'm saying. don't I'm not on all the internet spaces. and so there might be some people that think Woksters are being unfair to him or something. You said you were watching Nick Fuintis the other day. say Hey look man. look man. He was making some points. Gy can't lie Hi Joel Here is our special guest Hey parents How do you make smarter choices for your kids' college today? That's where Sally can help With Sally, you can find scholarships, funding options, tools, and guidance all in one place And if you need a loan, Sally has options for different families and different situations College is only worth it if you do it right So don't just help your kid go. Help them go smarter Sally. com slash go parents Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck the person who dries it? It's a Chevy person Probably no one. Your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up, do the first to rise, the last to leave You always have that little extra something, and maybe you've got it too Chevrolet, togetherogether let's drive. Visit Chevy dot com slash trucks to explore the lineup Heat up your fourourth of July at the Home Depot with our wide variety of grills under three hundred dollars and make every gathering one to remember. Give your outdoor space a glow up. Whatever your budget is, with savings on seasonal plants starting at five dollars. With the grill fired up and your backyard set to perfection, you'll be able to invite friends and family over to kick off the party Start celebrating with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Prices may vary by storic exions as Iice see Home Depot com st priceash for details All right, Joel, let's bring on Ben Terris. He is one of the best political profile writers and reporters out there The author of recent pieces about the Biden comeback about Jane Pirro about John Fetterman And he does all this is the Washington correspondent for New York magazine a job that has never had any controversy attached to it whatsoever Ben, welcome to the Press box. Thanks for having me on We like to sandbag the guests right. Yeah, I didn't that So you went to South Dakota to report on the Biden's attempt at a comeback People who haven't read your piece yet, what did you see from the former president Well, the first thing that people should know is when I went to South Dakota to see the former president of the United States speak, he was doing so at a Best Western in Sioux Falls which I just thought was like I don't know. in of it that was enough to pitch the travel to my editor, which is like this guy was the president He still thinks he should be president. He thinks that he could have won the last election But instead of being at the White House or in the Rse Garden or, you know, doing campaign rallies in these stadiums or whatever. He's at a best Western motel in South Dakota to speak to, you know, pretty much every Democrat in the entire state, which is not that many Democrats in the state, but, you know, it filled up it filled up the ballroom at the West Western. U And what did I see there? I mean, I saw a man who looked old and tired and a little sleepy, honestly. But he did get a big response from the Democrats that were there. They were psyched to see him U There was kind of an older crowd as well. so they maybe didn't hold it against him. that you know, he tried to stay in the presidential race despite his advanced age. U And he got a little more political than he might have expected in recent speeches. He kind of stayed away from that, but he, you know took some shots at President Trump is the most corrupt president and people really ate it up So this is sort of a theme running through the story, but in this I wanted to ask you this question in this context. why do you think They're relitigating twenty twenty four a few months before the midterms. because it feels like Maybe that shows the distance they have from the Democratic establishment right now, or what else is going on Yeah, I think there's a lot of factors at play here. One Joe Biden doesn't have that much time to fight for his legacy, right? I mean, a lot of presidents leave office and they got twenty years to buildu their foundation and build a library and U, you know, returned to the scene four years later and everyone kind of sees them through rose colored glasses and maybe starts liking them more Joe Biden is old and he has cancer and he might not have as long to live, frankly,'s sad but true. And so he has to kind of fight for his legacy now there is a financial aspect to this. Jill Biden's book came out now. In part, I believe, because they're not making a lot of money. They didn't make a lot of money. and getting a best seller is helpful to the Bidens. They help support their children. Um Joe Biden was a public serv servant for a really long time, didn't make a lot of money So those two things are going on. And also one of the main things I've tried to focus on in this story is They have always had a tight inner circle, but it's shrunk even tighter now And it's this bubble that has not served him well necessarily And so I think a lot of people probably thought when Jill Biden was going to put out her book and try to relitigate you know, what happened in twenty twenty four or tell the story from their point of view or go on speaking toours and do interviews about it. And when Joe Biden's out there now, I think they thought, o, America is willing to hear you guys out now. Things have gotten so nasty in the current political climate. People are so unhappy with President Trump that perhaps by comparison Joe Biden will return and be seen as a conquering hero And so I think those factors all kind of play together to make it. so right now is when we're seeing him, even if a lot of the Democratic Party would rather push this off a little bit If we go back to the summer of twenty twenty four Joe Biden lost a debate real debate, but also a debate within the party. that said, can you be presresident for four more years, Are you up to the job? When you talk to Biden defenders now the ones who are really still rallying around him. Do they really think he has what it takes to be president right now? Because that's what he set out to do years Right now, S of them even some of his most ardent defenders kind of waffle on that. and they use the cancer diagnosis as their kind of excuse for it, which is, look, we didn't know that he was as sick as he is now. We didn't know that that was happening or was going to happen And so at the time, we are we were positive and and we believe that it was still the right case to make, that he was okay to be president at that moment and would continue to be okay Now there's an unforeseen thing that's happened that makes people kind of question it. I'm not sure how unforeseen that really is. I mean, when you get to a certain age like he things can come up at any given moment. it's not actually a huge surprise when that happens And so you know people who wanted him to get out of the race and be a bridge candidate like you said he might be can use that as their reason to say, Well, look, this is what we were talking about. This is the kind of thing that we were afraid was going to happen some people still think he could Be president and I think all of them will say no matter what, he's still better an option than the current situation And I think a lot of Democrats believe that, but it's, you know, or those the only options you had was either Joe Biden or Donald Trump? orr was there a whole party of people waiting in the wings who could have stepped up and you know, run a campaign had they had the chance You know, so even before he lost the race. I mean, books on Joe Biden didn't necessarily do well. like there were always articles about he, hey, there's not a lot of interest in that. And there's been some dispute about Jill Biden's book and like its best seller status, right? about like how how it's been received And then in your story you talk about him trying to raise funds for the presidential library and that's not going. So what do you think it says actually about his popularity that It doesn't seem like people He wants to go out there and sort of relitigate his legacy and go out there, but it doesn't actually seem like People are that interested in hearing from him are learning more about him, right Yeah, I mean, I talked to David Axel Rob for the story who's become a little bit of a Biden critic and he was basically like, look, it's not that people hate him and it's not that people that love him. It's that people just don't really want to think about him And that's a really hard place to be for raising money, for defending your legacy or really just frankly for being person who's used to being powerful and important and now not really being thought about And so I think that there's some truth to that. I mean, if you look at There's't a lot of polls at the moment, but if there's some polling out there that suggests that within the Democratic Party, he remains broadly popular, eighty percent or so of Democrats still like him You know, liking somebody is not the same thing as liking them enough. to go out and see him speak or buy Joe Biden's book or donate to his his foundation And so there was a lot of struggle. Part of that is a hangover from twenty twenty four. Democrats are so upset about what happened. They probably don't want to donate money to any Democrat, especially the guy who was the president for four years Um, but there is some evidence that that hangover could end Um Lots of presidents disappered for a while. Barack Obama disappeared for a while George W. Bush has basically still disappeared. Clinton even kind of, you know, there were stories apparently about him like, you know, holing up in Chaaqua not being seen or heard from for a while while he was building his post presidency out. And so there is, you know, plenty of examxples of people going away and then coming back and being more popular with time It just has to be kind of like we talked about before on a Eedited timeline Presidential libraries is one thing, but when we talk about book sales I'm always fascinated by how many normy resistance Democrats around in the world Sounds like you were among some of them in South Dakota. These are people that pissed off at Trum They feel powerless. And they just want to do something Mhm. And doing something might mean Bying Jill Ben's M and buying Joe Biden's memoir, whether it comes out in September or at some in distinct date into the future How big a group do you think of people described like that normy resistance types. Yeah, I think it's probably bigger than people in the press or in you know, establishment in Washington or New York City or you know, these places would want to give credit for. I mean, you know, I just saw a slice of it in South Dakota and People lined up for more than an hour to take their picture with him I saw an eighty one year old woman kiss Joe Biden right on the liips And right in front of her husband, who said that his only regret was that Jill Biden wasn't there. And so like, you know, the people I saw were psyched to see him. and I think probably you go across the country, you'll find lots of people like that And as for book sales, I mean, I don't think it takes that many Not many people are buying books these days. So to hit the New York Times best seller list, you know that's tens of thousands of people probably in this country. There's certainly tens of thousands of people who love the Bidens Um mayaybe even millions of people, but are there hundreds of millions? I mean, it's hard when you when the numbers get this big But I do think there's a lot of people out there who think that Joe Biden was a good president. and even people who are upset about him staying in the race too long I think even some of those people would say, Well, look, he was a good president. He did a lot of good things. He fought for the things we care about. U I was talking to folks for the story, you know, even kind of lefty Democrats who are like, lookook, we don't want to go after his policies because we kind of broadly like his policies. He stacked the administration with, you know, Elizabeth Warren type folks. who you know, we don't want to say the word bidenomics anymore because it's not popular term, but the stuff behind it is still broadly popular And I don't think people necessarily want to run away from his presidency. They just kind of want to run away from his last campaign Hunter Biden has resurfaced on social media Where does the fascination with Hunter Biden come from Ooh, man. I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons to be fascinated with him. You know, he was kind of a side character throughout the last administration, always in the news. I mean, we're talking about guns and nude pictures and leaked stuff on the on the internet and drug use. I mean, there's just something kind of interesting about him as a character in general Almost succession like, right? Like the son of a very powerful person who's gone through his own kind of mental issues and done so publicly That makes him interesting. The fact that he's sober now and talks about all this stuff in a very kind of raw way and powerful way, frankly, sometimes I think makes them interesting h Also you just never know what he's going to say, right? There's something kind of almost unhinged about about his character. that makes him more exciting than Joe Biden, for example, who You know I guess he would say stuff that he wasn't meant to say, but like he was always like a politician. This is a guy from a political family who's just not of that world exactly. Um Also, I mean, you know, he's kind of a troll. He knows how to use the internet in a really interesting way, picaking fights with people, making fun of himself And then everyone wants to know, like, what's he doing? Like Is he trying to run for president himself? Does he want to be less the Joe Biden of the Democratic Party and more like a Donald Trump of the Democratic Party, is he got something in mind I think it is an interesting time for him. plus, The fact that Donald Trump's kids are like ten times more corrupt and, you know, out there in the news just raking in billions of dollars for themselves. makes everyone kind of look at Hunter Biden differently, which is like, oh yeah, he did have his things, but I don't knowaybe's not as what we're seeing now strange new respect for Hunter Biden. Exactly, It's interesting because I remember when he did that channel, I guess it was the channel five interview and since gone on and done like Candace Owens and all these other folks. So what was your conversation with like? I just like you said you talked to him over the phone in the story. so you know, was he is unpredictable and sort of, you know, Unfiltered in the conversation with you Honestly, I wish he had been more unpredictable and more unfiltered. You know, by the time I talked to him, I feel like he had gone through Not media trading, but he'd done enough of these things where like he knew what he wanted to say and he kind of said the things he wanted to say m, you know, that channel five interview was what like three hours long and he just like kind of would say anything. I didn't quite get that experience with him. Um, you know, he wanted to this was a story about his father. so I think maybe he took it seriously in a different way than when he wass just talking about himself. He wanted to make sure He didn't say anything that could damage his father. He didn't want to say anything that could make the story seem more like it was about Hunter Biden than about Joe Biden So he kind of stayed inside the box a little bit more than I expected him to. Ben you wrote a terrific piece several months back about John Fetterman who seems to be on Fox News every night or calling Graham Platner a new name every other day How do we understand what John Fetterman is doing right now It's hard to understand Jhn Fetterman because I'm not even sure he fully understands himself these days. But I think one thing about him to know is that when he feels backed into a corner He kind of lashes out even more than your average politician does And I think once he felt like he was losing his allies The Democratic partarty loved him. He was a hero, you know, he helped Democrats could control the Senate won a really important and difficult race u did so with A lot of difficulty and kind of an amazing personal story that was happening. He was like A hero And when he lost that status I think he almost sort of just sought out new people to love him and I mean, Fox News loves him. Republicans love him as the Democrat that makes other Democrats' lives miserable And so I think there's part of them that just kind of likes that stuff. I mean, I know that His father's a big Fox News watcher, his brother's a big Fox newews watcher. He's always kind of wanted their respect. I'm sure he's getting it from them in certain ways And he also likes to be heterodox and kind of iconoc cllastic and Um, likes to shove it in people's faces, likeike you think you know me, you really you really have no idea this is who I am You know, that was I mean Even you know, looking at a distance, that's a really tough story for anybody to deal with because it talks so much about like his mental health issues and how he treated people. That's a really lot of touched on a lot of really sensitive issues and near the end of the story It seems like he's was sort of resentful of the idea that you were talking to people and the people that talked to you about that stuff When the story came out Did you hear from him again? Did you get any feedback or hear anything from the Fedterman camp about what they thought of the story No, because pretty much all the fighting that happened about that story happened pre publication. There was a lot of you know back and forth, a lot of difficult conversations Um, and I think It let a lot of the steam out and by the time it published I think they were just done. And I literally never heard from him for anyone in his office again after that story came out. it was just sort of a one and done situation. All right, Ben, when you were a young profile writer and you're reading stuff and you're thinking about your career, who is the person you looked at and said, Hmm. I want to write like him or her when I I mean, the obvious answer for me, I went to the Washington Post style section and the kind of queen of Washington Post profile writing was always Marjorie Williams and her profiles were just incredible long form pieces, very tough madeade you know, I think people probably read stories about themselves and learned things about themselves offten Unhappily is my guess And I think her writing was just like kind of the perfect political writing that can never be topped. And so That was always somebody whose work I read and studied and tried my best to like, you know, come within twenty or thirty miles of when when I was writing You may not think of it this way, Ben, but you're the new Olivia Nutzi. you're the literal numerical replacement for Olivia Newy. So U What's been different about working at New York Magazine as opposed to the post and what made That position appppealing to you Yeah,'s a great question. I mean, you know, the Washington Post was an amazing place to work. I kind of thought that being in the style section was going to be the last job I ever had in journalism. Like I would just stay there forever Um, you know, things happened at the Washington Post in recent years that I'm sure listeners are familiar with. and that was part of the ere it was happening? we're not familiar. Yeah, we can do another segment on that another day You know, I'm still rooting for everyone over there and they're still doing really great work. And so it wasn't the only reason why I left But you know, I wanted a new challenge. magazine writing is a different kind of challenge than newspaper writing, even longer form newspaper writing And I think what I really love about New York is I feel like I'm stretching in a way that I kind of wasn't by the time I was done at the Washington Post where I'm I'm writing longer and writing longer isn't just more words, it's figuring out how to structure it. It's figuring out what makes a story worthy five thousand, seven thousand, ten thousand words instead of a two thousand word story. It's not just literally writing more words on the page, it's figuring out what story is worth that and how to make it be more about more than just the person you're writing about, how to have it be, you know, the themes be broader and bigger U So that's that's a huge reason why I love New York magazine. My editor is amazing at New York Magazine. My colleagues are so smart that, you know, it's great to be able to talk through stories with them It's just a really good team and And it's exciting to be at a place that I just think is killing it every week You know, and I know people may not know this Ben and I are mutual admiration society. in fact, we once ran into each other at the Ben, we were just talking about it before, the Ben Carson presidential announcement in Detroit in terms of twenty fifteen. Yeah. right. It was crazy. What a time that was. Yeah, was. What a different world that was, right One thing that I've always admire about you and really just like it's almost like makes me jealous, like the stories that you pick. So how do you Choose the stories that you're going to do. and like what does that ideas list look like for you? Yeah, I always sort of I felt like there's two kinds of stories I want to do, right? One is write about somebody that nobody's ever heard of, but is super important and interesting and powerful. You know, the most powerful person you've never heard of, you know, that kind of thing. If you can find somebody and introduce them to the world That's very satisfying. You know, that can be Here's hereere's a crazy, interesting, powerful person that you should know about. That's one way I think about stories. And the other is trying to write about somebody in a way, a person that you think you know about think that you've heard of and you think you might understand and writing about them in a way that nobody's ever covered them before And that can either be a definitive piece, a long pce that just kind of really takes their whole life and says, Look, you never need to read another story about this person again because here's the one or finding a slice of there their life that has not been covered and kind of really drilling in on that. And those are the ways I think about stories Um you know, it in the Trump in the Trump era can be difficult because bar for what is considered Um It surprising or important or funny or whate the bar becomes different, right? You really have to findind something about somebody or find somebody that jumps out at you, and it's harder and harder to find those those stories these days Ben you said we could do this on a later podcast, but we've already opened Pandora's box O as we like to call it here, Will Lewis and Matt Murray's box. Gross. How do you make sense of what's happened to your old paper, The Washington Post U I think how do I make sense of it? Well, I can't frankly, make sense of it. I think the Paper was filled with incredible talent, incredible stories, great editing, great storytelling. I don't think it was in need of a shake upp and I think they shook it up anyway. I don't know. it's hard to get inside the head of a deranged billionaire, you know? Like he was Jeff Bezos did a great job with the post for a long time, gave a lot of runway and then just decided too change it all. Was it a business decision, probably to a degree Um, I don't know What really frustrates me is all the talk about U how it wasn't working and how subscribers you know, subscribers were leaving But the real reason that a lot of subscribers left was because of the owner's decision, not because of the work that was happening there. And there's no ownership of that, right? So if you're going be working on at this paper and Gaining subscribers with your incredible work, and then the owner makes a decision and three hundred thousand people leave the next day And then the owner goes out and talks about how the paper was losing subscribers, it's like, well, That's your fault. And so I can't really quite make sense of it. and I find it very infuriating for the people that are still there and the people of Washington who need a paper you know to land on their doorstep or read on their on their devices every day, it's I think it's just a tragedy. You know in the story, you make reference to Kelly's Irish Times, you call it this low key pub inar Capitol Hill. And one of the things I'm always sort of fascinated about because especially I lived in DC and I live in the DMV The bars and the restaurants where folks are hanging out here, right? So like when you're doing your reporting Where do you hang out? Like are you going to like Kelly's or Bllfeathatherers? That's another place I heard about or Tune in. tun in Yeah, can I come I want to come with you one time, but you know, what you what are those places like and how often are you going? Yeah, I'm going to disappoint you, I think, honestly, and this may be giving away myself a little too much. Like I'm not a big creature of the night life scene here. When I first started In DC, a fellow journalist who's still a successful journalist. I will not name names told me like the only way to be successful is to move to Capitol Hill. And this is when I was covering the hill. And Report all day and then spend all night at the tune in or at Capitol Lounge or whatever these places are because that's where you're going to get the real scoops and whatever And I was like, that just sounds miserable. Like I will burn out on covering this place, if my whole day and my whole night is Sence working, you know, I really kind of need a separation of My job and my life, you know I I care about things outside of politics. don't I never really wanted to write about politics. I think in some ways it makes me a better political writer than I would be because I can look at things with a little bit of a jaded eye And so I don't really go out to the bars that much. I don't really hobnob I'd rather not see the people that I write about because sometimes they're mad at me. and I would rather not spend all my time hanging out with sources because I don't want to get too close to them because I want to be able to cover cynically and I want to be able to see things with fresh eyes and not feel like I'm of the place so much as an observer of a place. Not what you'd expect to hear from the new Olivia Nutzi. No, I kind of hope that my edor's not listening ' maybe they want me out all the time. I was gonna say, I didn't know you could separate your life from politics When you're a DC political reporter, I thought that was against Martin bylaws. But honestly, I think if I didn't, I think I would have burned out. L maybe I would' have been like an incredible reporter for two years in a way that I never have been. but then by the third year I might be like, I can't do this anymore. I have to go, you know, teach high school or something, which would be great. Honestly teaching high school sounds fantast You didn't want to do So what did you kind of writing did you want to do then? Be you've been doing politics for like what over a decade now. So how in the hell Yeah. Yeah. Well J'll tell you the first twenty fifteen, at least. Yeah. Yeahre right, yeah, right. Well, the first job I ever had was when I was thirteen years old covering local sports For the Concord Journal in Concord, Massachusetts, writing about baseball and basketball, the high school teams. I always wanted to be a sports reporter. I mean, you know, in some ways It's not that different, right? Like you're writing about political figures either way and people who don't necessarily want to talk to you and people who have their own talking points People think of both as a game, even though only one is actually a set of games and the other matters in in ways that that Some of the reporters don't necessarily remember it matters U So I think honestly, I just would like to write about people. I'd like to write profiles. I'd like to write about if I could write ten stories a year, maybe three would be about politicians, three about athletes, three about like, you know, weirdos inventing things, who knows? just people, just like your kind of classic stories Hi Ben Terris. New York magazine, the new piece is called Building Back the Biden's Ben thanks so much for coming on the press box. Yeah, anytime, thanks for having me All right, that's supp pressed box, He'soel Anderson I'm Brian Curt C I seem mic? by Isai Blakeley Coming up next week, there's gonna be a big Washington Book you and are going to dive into Mr. Anderson It's not about the wizards It's not about the wizards The book deals are going to the Nick's writers, not the Wizards writers. Okay, fair point. start Wizards do. So well, let's set the clock like ten, fifteen years from now. Okay. How many Wizards books have been published? Oh my God. I can't be that many 't There probably there was definitely a Jordan on the wizard's book Oh, nothing else matters is a great b And was source material for the pod I did called the Last Last Dance over at It this it's slate. So yeah, people haven't read that book, they should read it. It's really, really good I remember when the Nuggets made the finals a couple of years ago and I went back and tried to find that had been written about the nuggets and I found one. Oh man, that was kind of ook It was an oversized thing. so maybe had a little bit of coffee table book feel to it, but it was just Like there's a lot of teams that just have never had a book A lot of Doug Moe and Alex English in it or exactly what it was. Okay. Cadillac. Yeah All right, but the book we're talking about next week it is regime change by Maggie Camerbnd and Jonathan Swann You you and are going to dive into that See how close they get to the Woodward standard of Whington political books. That's Thursday shhoemakers here Tuesday. Joel cannot wait to have more lukewarm takes about the media with you Looking forward to, buddy