The Night at Guadalajara Hilton

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the declassified club The rest is classified. com Did the CIA sabotage England's chance of winning Fall World Cu Devious American spies really have poisoned England legend Gordon Banks in nineteen seventy Welcome to the Rest of Classified. I'm Didclosky. and I'm Gordon Carrera. Serious allegations, David. I read those lines under extreme duress. Sond send help , if you're listening. We are course on the cusp of the World Cup about to start in the United States of America. The ticketing process, Gordon has been fair and just Tickets are reasonably priced. It's easy to get to games if you want to go This time, we are looking at a spy story that that raises some very Very dark questions. Gordon, it may be the darkest Spy story we've done on the podcast, right? No, I think that's right. Yeah. I think to me, this is like raises the possibility which it could break the transratlantic Alliance. if if true. Big if true. We are going to look today at a story that examines what the CIA is really capable of Could The CIA, the beloved CIA have once sabotaged the dreams one of its closest allies. Could it have done something Gorda that brought to light could wreck the entire special relationship or Is this Jist a conspiracy theory This episode is brought to you by HP. In intelligence work, it's rarely the obvious problem that causes failure. It's the overlook detail or the flaw nobody quite solved, the kind of vulnerability intelligence services look for. And running a business is the same, especially when you're building or growing a team, it's the risks you can't see or don't understand HP designs technology so devices, collaboration tools, and security work together as a single system, helping teams keep everything running smoothly at home, in the office and out in the field. 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Castle steeped in legend, walk along cobblestone streets Come share the warmth of stories passed down through generations This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Plan your Scottish escape today at expedia. com slash visit Scotland So I mean, if anyone thought spying and sport didn't go together, we are going to look at that specific story But we're also going look at some broader questions about Epionage spying taking place in all tournaments and things like Olympics and there's a really interesting context and history to this. So it's the idea of spies being involved in sport is not as extraordinary as it may first seem to people. Here in Britain, David, we've just had a massive story. in the last few weeks. I'm not sure if you've heard about it, but it's crossed us over on the rest is classified. who are stable mates. The rest is football Because of Spygate, haveave you heard of Spygate David? It might surprise you, Cordon that I have not heard about Spygate. So I think I am going to need you to enlight me on what it is. It is not quite Watergate, but it involves Southampton Football Club being expelled from a playoff to get into the Premier League because one of their staff was allegedly caught filming a training session for the team they were going to be play, Middlesborough, but it was total amateur out. David. I mean the picture is the guy who was an intern and you know about being an intern, but this intern was said to stand behind a tree with his phone and snap pictures of the training session for the for the rival team and of course got caught in it You can't do that,u No, you're no supposed to do that. Why can you do that in American football? I don' I don't see why not. I guess I guess but are was did he break into their facility? No. Well It's against the sense of fair play and decency in the rules. It's So they they all ye yeah, it's frowned upon. They broke the rules. And so they got kicked out the game which was worth hundreds of millions because they could have got promoted to the Premier League where the riches are enormous. So but it was it was not high level spycraft The CIA would have done it better, I think, it's fair to say I think over these next two episodes, we're going to look at a much more serious and I think intriguing allegation, which goes back. to the World Cup of nineteen seventy and Mexico. England's legendary goalkeeper, Gordon Banks. We will come back to him fair ill. Now there's a new podcast series called Foul Play from Audible, which explores this very question and we have as a special guest. It's presenter a veteran journalist and I have to say a friend of mine. Gabriel Gatehouse with us to explore this murky tale. Gabriel, welcome Hello Gordon. Hello, David. Thank you very much for having me on. Gabriel, is an old friend. Well, in fact, when I first started looking into this some three years ago, I came to you Gordon for help because I was like veteran journists very kind of you to say, but you know the world of spies and exCIA agents is really your domain, at least. as far as I understand it And so yeah, I sought you out in a little cafe in London, where you spilled precisely no beans So I remember this very clearly. I think it was a Thaie cafe and we had lunch there. Yes, I think it was it was a Thy cafe in Clarkenwell in Clarkenwell. and I remember you posited this theory with me. I was wearing a blue trench coat and carrying a copy of the Financial Times. Gordon also had a trench coat on. as two guys normal normal lunch, two guys and trenchcoats. I do remember you positing this theory with me, which we're going to explore. I remember going like, that's very interesting, Gabriel. Yeah what Good luck with that. But yet here we are three years later and you have made a fascinating podcast series about it, which you I haveve listened to. and I'd heartily recommend. And I mean, you've done a lot of work on conspiracy theories as well, a bigig radio four series, a podcast series and a book called The Coming Storm, which looks at Q and on on all these things. But I guess this is something different for you as well, isn't it? It's a bit of a departure. should I shouldould I tell you what story is first of all? I mean, so basically The facts, the proven facts of the situation of this nineteen seventy. The World Cup was held in Mexico. England were the defending Champions having won in ' sixty six. they were kind of Joint favorites to win alongside Brazil who had an amazing team in nineteen seventy with Pelle and Gazzino and various other people. And it was kind of England versus Brazil was a big rivalry. Everyone thought they would meet in the final. That was the way it was going to pan out. And England's goalkeeper Gordon Banks was considered even by Pell to be the best goalkeeper in the world at the time just before the quarter fininal Gordon Banks falls ill. It gets food poisoning As you do in Mexico, right? I've been to Mexico. I don't know you guys have been to Mexico, but you get ill there It happens. He gets food poisoning, he can't play's the quarterfal against West Germany. They put on a reserve goalie, Peter Bonetti. he squanders a two nil lead the game ends three two England crash out And it's kind of the start of sixty years of her, this kind of dysfunctional relationship that England have with their national team, where we always think we ought to win But we're always rubbish. David, does the phrase sixty years of hurt mean anything to you Is that is sixty six the last time that that we won it? Okay. Yeah. and it's been a long tortuous, difficult journey as an England football fan since. So that's why this is this is a big deal. but Yeah, that's the facts. tellell us the the theory, the claim that led you to this story and how it came about. Okay, so first off, I now know a little bit about football, but really I'm not much of a football fan, right? So I'm a fair weher like Ill I watch a World Cup because I like a World Cup But I don't support a league team or whatever. I'm a very much a kind of second tier football supporter But three years ago, I was at an event And a guy comes up to me, total stranger. And heays, Ohh, you're Grel Gateouse, aren't you? You did that great podcast about conspiracy theories in America like thanks, that's nice of you who are you? He's all my name's Ed And I've got a story for you And I was like, oh God, here we go. You know this happens to me from time to time So it's like, alright, then what is it And he said, Well, are you into football at all? And I said, no, Now I'll stop you right there. I don't like to only about football and he said, Well, have you heard of Cordon Banks ' like Yeah, goalkeeper, right. Even I've heard of Gordon Banks nineteen sixty six Hecause, yeah, going and banks to my granddad So I'm like, o, well, you know, congratulations. Well done. Your granddad's a hero. Even I've heard of him nineteen sixty six, you know? And he's like, never mind about nineteen sixty six. Do you know about what happened in nineteen seventy I'm like no, I did not know about what happened in nineteen seventy. So he tells me the whole story about Favorites to win, Brazil the rivals, granddad getting ill, crashing out. And then he says, Well, you know grandad always used to say he thought something fishy went on. I was noble. . But Ed is like, wow, we never really took it that seriously. Gordon Banks died in twenty nineteen But a few years later, Ed meets a guy who says to him,, do you want know the real story of what happened to your granddad at the nineteen seventy World Cup And it's like hm, for what And the guy says Well the real story is Your granddad was poisoned by the CIA in order to help Brazil win. So I was like, I mean I basically had two simultaneous thoughts. My first thought was, o, classic conspiracy theory territory, right? It's got the CIA in it, some kind of s slightly dubious motive My second thought was If this is even plausible enough to investigate We might uncover some really interesting stuff about sports and spy So I said to Ed, look Send me an email, wrrite down everything you know about this story and have a look into it thinking basically this will go nowhere Three years later, Gordon. Here I am, I have been down a series of incredibly deep rabbit holes And U yeah, I mean, suffice it to say, when I started, I thought this is nonsense Now, I think Budy out This could have happened All right, so I think before we get any deeper into the sourcing chain for this and Wh why the CIA might have poisoned England's goal keeper in the nineteen seventy World Cup, We willll go down that rabbit hole. But I think first we should set up The victim here Gordon Banks, who I think is it's safe to say is not a household name in the United States of America, but is on your Fair Islands, But who is who is Gordon Banks? I mean, do you want me to go? because I literally didn't know about Gordon Banks except that he was the goalkeeper for the nineteen sixty six England team that won the World Cup the one and only time we did win the World Cup And that was literally all I knew about him. but Gordon, you're more into this stuff. Well, I am because I've got a tiny personal connection, right? which I can reveal now on it which is I am named after Gordon Bank. Are you serious? Oh My God. So that is my first that's why I feel quite strongly about this allegation. The CIA might have poisoned the man I'm named after. Be the story is my parents both came to Britain in the sixties and they wanted to give their son a typically English name And so Gordon Banks was playing in goal for England you know and had been. I was born in the seventies, but was still a famous figure. So they called me Gordon, not realizing that Gordon is actually a Scottish name Gormbank's born in Sheffield, working class community. The mad story is is father moves to a village where he sets up some kind of illegal betting shop. I mean, I was reading about this is all off you know the deep registry that we use in the rest is classified, otherwise known as Wikipedia. I think there's some disagreement among the family as to whether it was illegal strictly speaking or just not quite a betting shop. Not quite legal. Okay, But there's a betting shop involved And then he's poor know Gordon Banks' brother gets mugged one day and dies, you know, it's like a kind of family. It's a complicated family tragedy. Banks, Gordon Banks himself leaves school age fifteen. He becomes something which I've never heard of, which is a baggar with a local coal merchant age fifteen, which I assume means you' load coal into bags, but I think supposedly helped build up his upper body strength Then he's spotted as a youth player and it works his way through teams like Chesterfield, fine team, Leicester and Stoke. and he starts the nineteen sixty four season paid a massive forty pounds a week as his wage which for footballer's wage, I mean, it shows you how little they were paid back then and how different I think football was in those days. But anyway, he then ends up Be part of the famous England nineteen sixty six World Cup winning side. And then as we said, it' still there for nineteen seventy, famamous for this save against Brazil in the World Cup in the earlier stages, the greatest save in the world. I did I did watch that extensively in preparation for this and it was very good. It was incredible. made It made me think that I don't know how he got up after he made that safe because it looked like his body had come and torn into several pieces as he was diving for that It was incredible. And I think Pelle, who provided the header, also didn't know how he kept it out. I mean you can see he's just like he's about to go and he's like what So ye. So we've set up Gordon Banks as a working class hero and he's on his way to the nineteen seventy World Cup, but Gabriel, something else happens. Yeah. On the way to the World Cup in nineteen sevententy involving a different player, Bobby Moore, another one of the kind of England legends, which is another crazy story. Do you want to just explain to us what happens? So this is a story I knew nothing about but is quite famous in sort of footballing circles, and it's known as the Bog Gitar brracelet inccident. which I when I first heard about this story it had something to do with the Colombian necktie. where a Colombian player got murdered after he scored an own gal belieelieve it or not, and in our Escobar series, we did go into detail on what a Colombian neck tie is. Well there we go. I I knew it's a friend of the pod, friend of the show. Colombian C necktie is yes, obligatory attire on this show. Okay. Bobby Moore is the captain of the England team. He is I think probably the first Certainly the first English footballing celebrity like Bobby and Tina Moore Well like the Potion Becks of the swinging sixties. Andt if Potion Becks means anything to you, David? It does. I actually that actually those references have made it across the Atlantic to me. Yeahah. I'm following. Okay so they And so Bobby Moore, he's a defender, he's the captain and the tournament is being held in Mexico, which is at altitude. I mean, Mexico City is at like, I think some nf thousand feet or something whichich of course is a problem for sports people because you know the air is thinner, basically. you need to acclimatize. So Alf Ramsey, who is the manager of the England team decides what he's going to do is before the World Cup in Mexico, he's going to take the team to a place that's even higher than Mexico and get them to play a few friendlies there so that they can get used to the altitude. And the place he chooses Colbia So the players all go out there and they get to their hotel. waiting for their rooms to be made ready. And Bobby Moore and another player go into this hotel boutique, a jewelry shop Um, they have it specializes in emeralds, u It's called Fuego Verde, Green fire They go in there, they have a look around, they may be thinking about getting something for their wives back home, but they don't see anything they like and they leave And so they're back out in the lobby sitting around waiting for their rooms to get ready when suddenly the shop assistant from the from the boutique runs out and starts shouting in Spanish about a missing bracelet And she runs up to the Inngam Pers and she points her finger Bobby Moore And the police are called and the players are made to turn out their pockets, they kind of look under the sofas. noody finds a bracelet, there's no bracelet And the accusation just sort of goes away. England play their friendly against Colombia, they win, they then go on to Ecuador to play another friendly at an even higher altitude. And then they're supposed to go on to Mexico to start the World Cup. There's no direct flight. and so their flight takes them back via Bogatar. They've got a couple of hours layover. And Al Ramsy thinks well, we're just going to hang out in that same hotel for a bit just to keep the players occupied and it's when they're there that the police to arrest Bobby Moore, because mysteriously a new witness has come forward to say that he stole Bracelet And so Bobby Moore' arrested. The rest of the squad have to go on to Mexico without their captain and start England's football campaign and Bobby Moore spends four days in Bogatar. under house arrest. I mean what do you think, David? I mean, that feels to me like a set upp job. Is there any suggestion that the CIA was involved in this piece of the of sabotaging the team or was this more Well, who was responsible? So well it's a mystery that has never been solved. So Bobby Moore always denied that he'd taken a bracelet, no bracelet was ever found. I actually did a deep dive at the National Archives in Q about this because it turns out that the British government was very, very exorcised when Bobby Moore got arrested. And there's a fat folder there marked secret, not to be released until the year two thousand. So you for some reason, the government thought that these communiques and documents that were fluttering backwards and forwards between London and Bogatar and Mexico City were sensitive and needed to be kept secret And I think part of the reason was politics because what had happened was that Harold Wilson, who was the prrime Minister of the dayay at the time, had called an early general election in nineteen seventy to coincide with the World Cup, basically. He'd timed it place after the semif finals and before the finals, kind of counting on a feel good bounce in the poles, right? And so Bobby Moore the capaptain is arrested and it looks like England's going to have to play without him You can see all these frantic cables going backwards and forwards between Downing Street, emmbassies in Mexico City, in Bogotar. Bobby Moore is eventually released through some kind of skull duggery to do with contacts with the local Colombian intelligence chief and he goes to Mexico and he does join the team just in time to start the World Cup. But in these government documents I found references to a possible quote Latin American plot against British football. they say British football for some reason. rather than English. I interviewed the diplomat, the British diplomat who was the Chgeer'a Fer in Bogatar at the time. So basically his boss, the ambassador had left and he was left in charge. His name Gordon was Keith Morris. I don't know if you've ever come across a Keith Morris when you were at the BBC Yeah, cameraaman Ke stad. Yeah wow, right? Good. So Gordon and I used to work at the BBC. We used to work with his cameraman called Keith Morris. I was with Keith in Crimea when Putin annexed it. And when I found out about this diplomat, ninety year old diplomat who was involved in this story, I was like, this name is veryite familiar. And can you believe it? It's Keith's dad? Anway So he said that even though at the time, he thought this was far fetched, he said that what people were talking about was, as he called it, a put up job by Brazil That's what people suspected, that Brazil was somehow involved in trying to destabilize the England team. I think this really is the point that we probably ought to talk about motive. I mean, maybe one of you two want to pick up on this because that for me was one of the One of the most implausible aspects of this is like why the hell would the Americans care Who wins the World Cup? I mean, nineteen seventy arere they into soccer? I don't think they're into soccer really No. No, not. Exactly. Do they even know about? like, you know, so for me, this was one of the big kind of stumbling blocks initially. like why? Well, the Americans may not be into soccer or football But the CIA is into Latin American dictatorships at this time. I think that's correct to say. Big into Latin American dictatorships. That I guess is the link, isn't it? I mean, I do think even if you look at the Bobby Moore saga, what it tells you The fact that the Prime Minister in Britain had called an election timed with the World Cup and was worried about the impact of the football and Bobby Moore's arrest on it tells you football and politics and public opinion go together. You know, politicians can see the benefits of success in sporting tournaments, but particularly I think in some countries the World Cup. That's the point, isn't it? Yeah, and a little sidebar on that. So Harold Wilson was leading in the polls by about it was seven points ahead in the Galluop poll when England kicked off in their quarterfinal against West Germany And then England lost they crash out. the election is held four days later and guess what Harold Wilson lost Politics and football. So basically the suggestion was that Brazil somehow was interested in a World Cup win politically, right? not just in sporting terms, and that somehow there was some kind of Brazilian involvement in trying to destabilize the England team in this kind of Bogoda bracelet incident. Now It is true The Brazilian military dictatorship which came to power in nineteen sixty four with a little help from you guys, David.ust a little bit of help. No, no. Never do such things in Latin America. offended by the insinuation. It's an amazing recording. If you go to the website of the National Security Archive which is in Washington, D.C. they've got a great tape of Lyndon Johnson. telling his CIA director and various other people to basically use their imaginations and do whatever it takes to help these military guys and what they need to do So look, nineteen sixty four, the Brazilian dictatorship comes to power with a little bit of help from the Americans. By nineteen seventy They're becoming pretty repressive, right? So they' you dissidents, left wingers are being disappeared, tortured, in some cases, killed. And But they're big football fans. my God are they big football fans? right? If you thought the English Ju junta loves football. A Junta loves football, but like all of Brazil loves football. Y As one guy put it to me in the podcast, you know, Brazil in Brazil, football is literally a religion, right It is absolutely massive. And if you think about the timeline, so Brazil won the World Cup in nineteen fifty eight under democracy. In nineteen sixty two, Again, they won under democracy Then the dictatorship comes to power in nineteen sixty four. Two years later in nineteen sixty six, they do terribly They're knocked out after the first round and of course, England wins By nineteen seventy, opposition to the dictatorship is growing and there's this kind of narrative from the opposition that Brazil only wins under democracy In the same's such it's amazing because it's a mirror image of Harold Wilson. he said U you know, England only went under labour Everyone is using politics. I mean is using football for their political endents And it is a documented fact that General Medici, who was in nineteen seventy the dictator obsessed with winning the World Cup, right? He personally intervened to have the national team coach replaced. He's on the phone to the dressing room after every match. He's like meddling in tactics. He's basically given up running the country. He's just running the football team. So again, like when you're dealing with these stories and you're kind of trying to sift truths from fiction, fantasy, conspiracy theory. You got to hold on to what's true. It is true that the Brazilian dictatorship was absolutely obsessed with winning this. So then my question was, okay, well It's a bit of a leap from there to go while the CIA in them do it. It is. it is it is a lot exactly. So So I thought, well, I've got to find some documentary evidence that proves that at least the CIA was cognizant of the power of football and that they were you know, A was the CIA worried about the popularity of the Brazilian dictatorship and be where they sort of thinking about football as a way of potentially ameliorating it, you know. Obviously. David I wrote to the CIA I said, DarCIA Please would you provide me?'t I didn't go DSCIA did you pooison Gordon Banks in nineteen seventy because I thought they might just go No They might laugh me. They might laugh at me. So so I wrote to them and I said, provide me with any and all documents that you have relating to the nineteen seventy Borld Cup And you will be pleased to hear id that they wrote back to me pretty promptly. I was really surprised at how quickly they wrote back to me with a little envelope embossed with the CIA logo that plopped through my letter boox a mere month or so later, saying, Dear Gabriel, we have received your request and we shall process it in due course. That was the last I heard of them. This was several years ago That was it. That was it. But they say they did helpfully point me to the CIA's electronic reading room a whole bunch of's tell Yes, thank you. I did know about it already. but anyway, thank you for the reminder. So I had a little dig through the already declassified files. And what I did find in there was a declassified memo dated Early nineteen seventy one, so less than a year after the World Cup where a CIA officer specifically says that the dictator General Medici is becoming relatively popular and that the regime is kind of stabilizing in part because, and I quote He successfully managed to associate himself Brazil's victory at the World Cup T games in Mexico. So that's the put up job by Brazil against Bobby Moore, but let's take a quick break and we come back, we're going to see what happens to poor Gordon Banks on that fateful day. Did you know about one in three people with plae psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling this sound like you Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. 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Eligible students get a year of Microsoft three hundred sixty five premium, and a year of Xbox GamePass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller Learn more at windows d. com slash student offffer. Law Supplies last ends june thirtieth turns at aka d. mS slash college PC Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Redull Summer all day play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end DJ, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track Red Bull Summer All D day play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit reedbull d. com slash bright suummer ahead to learn more. See ya this summer Well welcome back. The scene is rooom twelve o eight at the Guadaljara Hilton in Mexico on the eleventh of June nineteen seventy And the room is shared by three members of England's World Cup squad Bobby Charlton, Keith Newton, and of course Gordon Banks. And I guess Gordon, what has happened point. for Team England in the nineteen seventy World Cup a brief football recap. England actually you had the save of the century by Gordon Banks, but England still lost actually an early game against Brazil, but they've still progressed through and crucially England have just beaten Czeoslovakia, which means they are through to the quarterfinals. So defending champions and they're through to the quarter final And so this is, you know, you're now through to the business end of the tournament, David. This is where, you know, this is where the pressure really meounts. This is where England are going to be in ple of weeks in this current Wld Cup You know, as we progress through to our glorious victory sixty years on. By the way, is that is that likely? What is the what is Tam Eiglt's chair this happens every four years, every four years. It's like this time we're really gonna to do it. This is our year. and then o Godd, no, we're really rubbish, aren't we? Yeah, I'm afraid so. So Gabriel, maybe you should tell us, give us, you know, what's going on in this room. So you know, they won their group games. they're through now to this big game. And what happens at the Guadalaara Hilton? What do we know about what happens that leads to Gordon Banks king. So as you laid out, Gordon, they've just won their third and final group match and they're going through to the knockout stages And according to the notes of the team doctor a guy called Neil Phillips Players inquir of Al Ramsy. whether they might have a quote quiet drink in one of the rooms, right? I When I proached this story, I honestly was as keen to knock it down as I was to stand it up because you know the only way it works is if it's actually credible. So you' got a stress test. So immediately I was like, okay Balllers, nineteen seventies Quiet drink, really? I mean, you know. So I kind of zeroed in on this quiet drink that ended up taking place in Rom twelve oh eight of the Guadalajara Hilton. Guadalahara is where England have played their group matches, the room in question by three players, including Gordon Banks I love the fact that they' sharing ropes, like they' bunking up through a room. Yeah, does that happen? I don't think that happens anymore, right? They're not putting them through a room, E a Hilton That's how it is on the rest is classified, by the way. C When we do live shows, we just we get one room. Very good. Okay, there's And I'm sort of trying to triangulate here between you know, witnesses and the written testimony of people. Like most of the people are dead, right? So it's really hard to investigate this G've got the doctor's notes We've got Gordon Banks' autobiography and what he told his family And we've got this player Alex Stephney, who was the second reserve goalkeeper for the England team and who was also sharing a room Gordon Banks on the fateful day that he got ill So the timeline as far as I understand it, is that They beat Czechoslovak in the final group game. they have the quote quiet drinks in the room. and at some point after that Gordon Banks says he begins to feel unwell There is a slight discrepancy in the timeline here because the doctor says the quiet drinks happen on the Thursday. Gordon Banks says there were drinks on a Friday at which point he says he's handed a bottle of beer. And in his autobiography, he writes, I don't know if the bottle of beer I was handed was open or not when I got it, but what I do know is that about half an hour later I started to feel very unwell indeed And it's interesting, isn't it? that they'd been careful about they were eating and drinking on the dp and they'd been told to be quite careful haven't they? which I assume is more to do with, you know, stomach problems in Mexico than it is to do with pois But there'd been a lot of kind of warnings to that. Absolutely. All the players were given a little rule book. They were told what they could and couldn't do and a lot of it was about food. So his team doctor was very conscientious. He did a lot of prep. He got all of the England team's food flown out from the UK. He sort of contracts this frozen food company Findus which to Brits of a certain generation is kind of redllant of crispy pancakes and fish fingers. So they fly out all the food to Mexico, he flies out fifteen thousand bottles of molin mineral water which he cools in batches in the bathtub of his hotel room with ice in it. So they are in no street food, no room service, no ice in the drinks, no salad, all of this stuff. they've been given very clear instructions. And this is not because they're afraid the CIA might poison them, right? This is this is This is Mexicoexic this is like let's not get stomach bugs because Mexico Wonderful countountry is famous for this, right? They even have their own type of tummy bug, it's called Monteuma's revenge, right? And I don't know about you guys, but the first time I went to Mexico in nineteen ninety five, I got very ill indeed. and I don't think the CIA was out to get me. I was eighteen and on holiday. maybe. So obviously, the most obvious explanation for why Gordon Banks got ill is it just got ill. It's Mexico, right? Okay I was thinking like even with being careful, even with all the food being flown out You know, you slip up, you have a bit of a salad that's been washed in tap water, you have a bit of ice in the drink, whatever, whatever, whatever So so that was my I was trying to sort of stress test that and see could we find any other suggestions that something else untoward happened We should say he got very ill. He did. I mean, the account I think Alex Stepney has is when I got into the room I could hear him Gordon Banks in the toilet. You don't want to describe it. I think this is what he told you, isn't it But you know what I mean. You could hear everything. And I shouted to him. I said, Gordon, are you al right? I mean, We kind of know what they're talking about there. But it's bad enough that he can't play. He can't play. I mean, he essentially can't stand up So so by the morning of of the Sunday, which is the day of the quarter fininal U He can't stand up and he is basically he takes to his bed and he watches the match on TV. Funnily enough he he falls asleep after the first half At which point England are two nill up And then he's woken up by Alex Stepney, the reserve goalkeeper who comes into the room after it's all over And u and Gordon's like How much did we win by? And Alex is like no mate. We lost So you know The thing is that they Obviously they took precautions. There's this question mark over a bottle of beer which Gordon Banks himself sort of identified as the culprit But you know, as I said, like the obvious explanation for this is you just get ill. So for me, like short of finding a memo where the CIA orders this dastardly deed to be done, which I always knew we wouldn't find because David, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not the way it works. No, no. there was also a decent amount of destruction that happened at the Central intelligence aggency around this time period. So I think for bet reasons you're unlikely to find unlikely to find the smoking gun. The smoking gun. Yeah,'s. So really my once I sort of established the motive Brazil was kind of more or less plausible. because of what we knew about what was going on in Brazil at the time and because of that memo that I'd found in the archive. Oh, and by the way, did you know that NASA was helping the Brazilian team to train So so the English to prepare for the altitude go to Colombia and get embroiled in this scandal about a bracelet the Brazilians Just get NASA to help them. And they get the guy he's called Kenneth hold on. his name is Kenneth Cooper and he is the inventor of aerobics. He invented aerobics, but in nineteen sixty nine, he was working for the US Air Force and he'd been secondcconded to NASA to devise the fitness program for the Apollo astronauts Oh wow. But on the side, he was helping the Brazilian team to prepare for training at altitude and they got the Brazilian fitness trainer over to the states where they hosted him at NASA facilities.ounds like Okay h does sound like the Brazilians, dare I say, might have been preparing slightly better than the English team with their quiet quiet beers the dayight before the. I mean, look, absolutely and we' you know Were the English arrogant and ill prepared? Absolutely they were. They really were. But that does not mean that the CIA did it. C I love you God You are my most credulous listener But But Gabrielle, how how do you Tell us how you got from bottle of beer or two the CIAK may have had a role in po the CIA of roll of poisoning Gordon Banks was the story I heard, right? So I was trying to stand it up or knock it down, basically. It standed up insofar as one can ever stand up things like this, an intelligence operation that is designed to be secret if indeed it happened So I started with the motive and we looked at Brazil and okay, let let's call that a tick. Let's call that a poss a possible motive. Then, you know, if you're a detective, you've got two other boxes to tick, right? Motive, means opportunity. So When you're talking about Someone getting sick You think about means, right? What did didid the CIA have the means to Poison someone in the way that Gordon Banks got ill. In other words, David, and maybe you can answer this question if it doesn't relate to sources and methods the CIA or does the CIA regularly give people a little bout of food poisoning in order to get them out of the way. Not regularly. Oh and never No. so they do do it. They do do it. We talked about this, Sore and I on It was sort of a detourour in a series that we did last year. on the CIA's experiments with mind control and LSD back in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, where the CIA's office of well became the Office of Tchnical Service at the time. it was called the Technical Services Division did work on poisons. abbsolutely. So so there is there is precedent for the CIA to embed poison in operations. I would say it tended to be focused you know, sort of enemy countries and not not, you know, Fredly goalkeepers there is history. Can I just say, David? I might clip this up and put it in my series because you are the first ex CIA officer to tell me on the record that the CIA has in the past meddled in a little bit of dodgy tummyism. No way. didid you mean to do that, David? How can I be the first This is an established this is an established record of what the agency has done and we've talked about it on this p. I mean, Specifically dodgy tummiesough spepecifically dodgy tubbies. Yeah. Is that a What does that What does that mean? No, I think we'll probably get into this a bit more in the next episode, but I mean' some of the poisons we're talking about were like Exotic sh you know It was not exactly it was designed for murder, not for sort of dodgy tummies, I would say. So I think you're backtracking David. I can see you backtracking I can see you looking at that that retirement contract that you have with the CIA going, Ohh shit. I know. fuck up here. Now I think this might be a good place to stop this first episode, partly so David can consult his lawyers. Always a good idea and I' done with the restless classified episodes S said it to the lawyers Because when we come back for the next episode, we'll dive deeper into what the real evidence is for this issue of the CIA's use of poisons and the evidence of spying and interfering in sporting tournaments. And of course, just a reminder, you don't have to wait for that next episode. You can get it right now. by going to join the declassified club.