The Future of Intelligence Integrity

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the declassified club The rest is classified. com What is going on with the Trump administration and the U. S. intelligence community is a CIA officer Wind up with forty two million dollars in gold bars stashed. It is Virginia homeome. Well welcome to the Rest is Classified. I'm Golden Carrera. and I'm David McClasky. And this is a special kind of bonus newsy episode, which we're going release both to our members, but also to the general audience as well. So do sign up if you want to hear more of this kind of thing. But we thought we'd have a little look at what's going on inside the U S. intelligence community, David, we do this now and again. becausecause there's been a lot going on, it's fair to say. someome little questions about politicisation and some big appointments at the top But also This bizarre question, which I did think of when I first heard about it, this new story about Bars And I can see some of them behind you, David. That's right. That's right. Whenever you leave the CIA Gordon given three hundred and three one kilogram gold bars and told to keep them safe you know, for the rest of your life. And in this case You know, one of these guys just he He didn't keep them safe. No, it's it's a This is it's an insane story And I would encourage anyone listening to this to just Google the name. David Rush Gold bars And you will find some headlines that I think They're the sort of headline I come across occasionally, where I think if I included this in a novel My editor would say, this is No No way. This is unrealistic. This is unrealistic. I did think it was a bit of a joke when I first heard it. It's like one of those spoof onion headlines or something like that. becauseuse you used to think Nah, No way could someone steal That much money from a highly secure organization and highly competent organization like the CIA and get away with it, David. Well, it wasn't like an Italian job heist Gordet. It wasn't like he came in like, you know, Tom Cruise in Mission Ipossible. it was, you know, sort of roping into this secure room at Langley. And I guess maybe it's worth setting Yeah. Let's explain what happened. What has happened is that on the nineteenth of mayay, so a few weeks ago, a senior CIA officer, and there's a little bit of confusion, I think in the press about whether he was currently employed at CIA or whether he had just left. But in any case, a CIA officer named David Rush was arrested at his home in Virginia BBI special agent Sarchchig hiss home seized three hundred and three one kilogram gold bars market value around forty two million dollars And alongside the gold, there was a couple additional million in foreign currency and thirty five. luxury watches And and David Rush and this is this is the crazy part, Gordon. and we'll get into this is that David Rush also seems to have committed Time card fraud. card fraud. while he was at CIA And that is what he's been arrested for. So he has not actually yet been arrested for the gold at his house, for the watches, for the currency. He's been arrested for fraudulently claiming seventy seven thousand dollars of compensation on his time cards over a decade plus CIA career It's wild This episode is brought to you by HP. In intelligence work, it's rarely the obvious problem that causes failure. It's the overlook detail or the flaw nobody quite solved, the kind of vulnerability intelligence services look for. And running a business is the same, especially when you're building or growing a team, it's the risks you can't see or don't understand HP designs technology so devices, collaboration tools and security work together as a single system, helping teams keep everything running smoothly at home, in the office and out in the field. The protection is built in. hardware level security working quietly in the background helping reduce risk creating more work With a team of business advisors, HP helps businesses of all sizes find technology that fits their needs and budget. To see how HP helps businesses work securely and productively, visit HP d. com forward slash classified. The rest is classified listeners also benefit from ten percent off HP business technology with code TRIC ten This episode is brought to you by my favourite London review of books. William here from Empire briefly crossing the Golhanger Network Borders. In our journey to unpick the complexities of the past, it's clear that history is not a straight line. It's a vast, intricate and complex tapestry. To truly understand a political revolution or the fall of a dynasty, you have to build up the picture You need diary entries and poetry that capture the scale of emotions, the secret correspondence of a diplomat and the sharp discerning insights of the era's great thinkers. And it's this art of the deep dive that the London Review of Books champions. They bring together the world's leading thinkers and interrogate a rich range of topics through long form essays, tryry three months of the LRB completely free When you sign up today. suubscribe at lRb. me forward slash trial. That is lrb. m forward slash trial to try three months of the London Reviewer books for free, just do it. It's the most wonderful journal in the country and you will never Now on Acorn TV, there's a killer on the ls. Brooks Shields stars in the new original murder mystery. You're killing me. You spin some c park theory and I find the evidence. I solve the mysteries for a living. I think I'm good to go. Murder has met its match. You cannot be here. This is a police investigation. I've ridden you. What does that mean? It was a big city cub with a small jurisdic mion Boomers are so cute and they flirt. You're killing me, all new episodes. Now on Acorn TV You' going to explain now about time cards? I imagine this is is this like factory workers like you see these old films from Britain in the fifties where they had to punch in and punch out. It's not a physical punch in punch out. You do have to fill out a time card though. You don't have to do that when you go to Langley. It's called a timeim at attendance card And it's like a school. I remember having to fill these out regularly U you feelill about every two weeks and there was, you know, emails would go out to say, get your TNA in This is the number one reason why people get fired from CIA is Time at atttendance fraud. And the reason for this and I guess we'll just we'll just do this now. because I think it's I think this is an amazing part of the CIA bureaucracy is Okay, you are paid for an eight hour day. If you are Staying late for something. and let's just talk about the world of Lagley here and not the field If you're staying late for something, you're writing a PDB. President's Daily brief article and you stay till two in the morning you can then claim over time which is whyid You know, I think a time and a half or something like that You can claim overtime If you are overseas could be in u localities where you're getting danger pay, a bonus kind of supplement on top of your regular time And in the case of David Rush, He was claiming to be on military leave as part of the Navy reserves When as we'll see He was not still in the Navy, and he was claiming this bonus time So basically he's not working his real job. He says he's away on his Navy reseserves gig. And he's claiming that time, but in fact, he's just lounging at home in Virginia or something So that's why he's been arrested so far. forty two million dollars a gold bars. That's fine. But you you know, you mess with your hourly rates and your time and attendance. That's what gets you in trouble. Let's Let's do who this guy is because I just think, I mean his whole story of who he is and the backstory. I mean, it raises lots of really interesting questions to me. No offense, David, about who they let into the CIA. And you know what kind of people get in? And I mean, I should know from having worked with you for so long that only people of the highest standards could possibly ever work for the CIA. But this in my mind suddenly raises some interesting questions Yes After working with me, Gordon, you just thought, you know, these are the most brilliant people with the highest sort of moral rectitude and how did this guy what I thought? How did this guy slip through the cracks? And Honestly, I've had I've had a lot of conversations. with CI officers current and forber about this case to get ready for this episode. and Everybody The initial reaction from everybody. is just complete shock There's no sort of like, oh, yeah, you know, this makes sense. I mean, it just it There's so many levels on which it doesn't make any sense at all that is it's been shocking to everyone I've spoken to. So let's give a little brief on what the FBI the FBI has actually put out. There's a publicly available affidavit from one of the special agents involved in this case, that gives us some more information about who Rush is and and why he has Why he has been why he's been caught with so much So much gold in his home. So According to this affidit, late in twenty twenty five. Selestter Russia requested a significant quantity of foreign currency and tens of millions of dollars in gold bars for what he described related expenses And what he seems to have done and we'll get into this in more detail is he has created a fake special access program which is It's called an SAP and It is a program that for example, you, when I was inside the agency, I had a top secret what's called a TSSCI clearance. topop secret. you know, sensitive or special compartmented information Carance, right That doesn't mean you get access to everything R doesn't mean like you just get the all the stuff What is common if there's a really particularly sensitive source or a sensitive technical collection program or a covert action program is that these are put into special access programs that people are read into on a case by case basis and The advantage of that, obviously from you know, sort of protecting sources and methods viewpoint is you limit the number of people who could potentially leak that information, so it's highly compartmented you can see how if you are using a special access program to embezzle millions of dollars. It would also be a very useful vehicle because very few people would have insight into what's actually going on And we'll come back more of the mechanics of that. But so he has set up the special access program and claimed that the gold The watches, the currency were payments associated with that program And what's what's what's wild though. is that You would think, Gordon that the presence of three hundred and three gold bars at your home would be the thing gets you caught It's not what initially started raising flags was credential fraud and what seems to have tripped the tripped up rush and brought him to the attention of the I is that aspects of his biography and experience, the way he had portrayed himself to the agency Turned out to be false. H CB. He made up his backstory. Okay. That's right. notot the gold bars. Okay, That's right. The FBI affidavit goes into some detail on the false claims that Rush made throughout his CIA career. So He claimed that he had a bachelor's degree from Clemson University This is not true He does not have a bachelor' degree from Clebs at University He claims he has a master's of science from Rinsler Polytechnic Institute in computing technology and electrical engineering he'd never attended His first what's interesting is Russia actually applied three times to the CIA twwice in two thousand six and then again in two thousand nine on his first application He said he had a master's from the Naval postgraduate schoolchool This was dropped from subsequent applications because he does not have one Okay. This part, I think this is even this is even better. So he claims to be a pilot, a Navy pilot that he had been in the Navy prior to joining the CIA a review of it and he had been at the Navy, but he was not a pilot. Right? He has no pilot's license And he never underwent any pilot evaluation during his naval career What h He claims to have been a US. Air Force test pilot school graduate first And he claimed that he was he had a current director of test position He did this on an application to get into the senior executive service at the CIA. because he was a very senior officer, by the way, very senior officer at the CIA And he claimed to be director of Test for a one hundred and forty five person eighteen aircraft Joint Army Navy Weapons Test orrganization. U as as late as twenty eighteen, but he had actually left the Navy in twenty fifteen. Now look I've heard of people slightly embellishing their CVs, you know? slightly exaggerating their accomplishments. But this is something else and I'm afraid David, this raises little questions about the CIA and its employment procedures, which is Does no one check I mean Does no one check these things? I mean, they don't strike me as that hard to check if you're the CIA Wood would not think so And I will say that I think the two big questions that come out of this, this is the first one is, How does a serial fabricator actually even get in Right? because shouldn't someone have checked are called Clemson and said Did he actually graduate Oh wait, no, well, what is this diploma you've given us? Because I'm pretty sure he I think he faked a diploma and submitted that as part of his application. So you're right. I mean, I think a big question is how does someone like this get in and stay in. he was probably Polygraphed at least three times. overver the course of his agency career. I mean, it suggests he's a very, very good liar, which you could makes him perfect for the CIA in some ways. Well well actually I actually think, you know, I mean, not to go all Arm chair psychologist on you Gordon. But I think if you are a sociopath, the stress indicators that the body normally gives off when you're lying sweat, heart rate, breathing, all this kind of stuff that can trip the polygraph They don't happen You're fine with it. Yeah. You're totally comp. You stressed by lying. right Yeah. It's the George Gostanza thing, you know, it's not it's not a lie if you believe it, right? I mean that's I think how this happened When you get into the Th sort of the mechanics of how the CIA bring someone into the organization and how they do these checks. It's interesting to me because Rush would have joined around the same time that I did I joined two thousand six He got it in two thousand nine. So we went through a very similar process. One of the many parallels, ye. Yes. onene of many, including the gold The gold city behind me You know, on this question of well how it's supp get in? So when when Rush applied as I did, You know, you fill out this massive form which is called an SF eighty six on which you basically catalog your entire life, whereere have you lived, your education, your employment history Foreign ties, foreign travel All of your relatives, you know, obviously, if you have any criminal history, drugs, whatever it is, it's a massive form It's very invasive. You fill this whole thing out And then the CIA runs a background investigation on you And this is a very, it's not just like a ground check that's done digitally The CIA, these aren't CIA officers, I think they're contractors They actually send people out to go and visit people that you have listed on the SF eighty six. So when I went through this, they sent people to my college. to talk to my college friends about me They sent people to my neighborhood is actually deeply upsetting to my neighbors because This guy came out. quite literally in a trench coat and he walked up and down the street on which my childhood home sits and he asked neighbors about me and they were very creeped out. Yeah, I bet. Like I think they thought that I had committed some transed. First of all, how do they I got lots of questions about this. In the UK, it's developed vetting is the same thing and that was quite controversial because we had it with Laorda Mandelson who had been appointed Ambassador Washington, hadad it been properly veted and all these questions. But when the guy was walking in the trench coat down your old childhood street. doeses he say, Ohh, by the way, David's planning to join the CIA? I mean, how do they But is't that kind of obvious because like why else Why else is the Guide of Trechico as you about this? So they're definitely not saying CIA. Okay, but a government job, they might say. Maybe Maybe. I mean, I'm not even sure if they do that but he's, you know, this guy apparently was asking I remember a couple instances of this. So the neighbors Apparently there was a lot of conversation about whether I had caused problems in the neighborhood or throwed parties or, you know, things like that. Like And I was young, obviously at the time and still have And he was very concerned about, you know sort of youthful indiscretions When he went to my my college campus and spoke with one of my friends Apparently it was this big question about foreign travel because I have been on a trip to France with this friend part of France. Yeah. Right. R Thank you. Very very exotic. And he was like trying to figure out, okay, well, what, you know, when were you there Did you go to other countries? This kind of things because obviously what he's trying to do is he's trying to match those dates against what I put at theSF eighty six as well as get kind of an overall assessment or something like that. So Point is pretty in depth process And one would think that the massive number of fabrications that David Rush would have made on his S of eighty six. would have been caught. But here's the thing Tod the agency, as do most big corporations has fairly sophisticated software that it uses, obviously commercially available stuff to run a check on the SF eighty six against the digital footprint that most of us make you know, online, right? And to and to do a lot of this stuff to kind of flag applications where there might be a higher risk of, you know fabrication This was not in two thousand six, two thousand nine This is a manual process, which means The investigators, the contractors that were looking at David Rushia's application the And I don't know what the procedure was, but it means they took the Clemson Diploma And they never never checked. Maybe they maybe they put in a request to Clemson and never heard back and they said whatever. And I do think, you know, it's interesting like at the what we did the Snowden series last year. there was a This kind of dropped handoff between the CIA that had real concerns about Snowden and the NSA. when he was working on a contract at the NSA Whereas like the CIA was basically like I think it was a it was put into this system called Scattered Castles, which oversees a lot of the clearances and kind of is like a supposed to be a centralized repository for what, you know, who has what clearance and who and basically Stoneen was flagged by the agency and scattered castles like, don't give this guy clearance, but the NSA missed it because they didn't they didn't the contractor didn't check in Scattered Castle. So like, I actually think with the Navy, It must have been a similar dropped ball where like the investigators that were doing this didn't check with the Navy. They just took it on faith. just took it on face value in the SF eighty six and obviously Rush would control the references on the SF eighty six. And if he's lied to his neighbors and friends about what he's doing which he did then everyone's going have the same story about him. And so it's all gonna to check out. Yeah, it's all going to check out. But he'd worked at a fire department as well, hadn't he? The Ashburn Volunteer Fire Dpepartment. That's right. But again there, I mean there's this a very good NBC news piece from Rich Sapiro who's gone and interview some of the colleagues. and it sounds like again there, there's this kind of record established of being some kind of I mean, fabricator fantasist, I don't quite know Everyone that the Chapiro interviewed and by the way I'd highly commend this piece because it's It's fantastic. What a great piece of journalism of this guy went out and went to the volunteer fire department where Russia had served. Everybody there thought that Rush was a top gun fighter pilot. and you know, he'd flown in sorties over Iraq and Afghanistan. Apparently when Rush joined, he was also he was in great shape. He said his call side in the Navy had been dumpster And that he got the name because he got drunk once and wound up in a dumpster. I think that's I mean, that's a great call sign. I think, deffinitely top top tier. Yeah. if I was going to pick a call sign, I would not pick dumpster I mean, Maverick, you know, Ice manan, D iceman. I'd be I'm sorry.. So here's the thing is Rush Rush head been in the Navy in a technical role that I think did obviously deal with aircraft And so could he could speak in a compelling way to other people about his his you know, experience as a naval fighter pilot and He looked every all these guys in the Ashburn volunteer fire department said he just he kind of looked the part and he he wasn't he was sort of soft spoken about it in a way. like he would open up about it once he was pressed, but he wasn't they trying to advertise this to everybody. So he came across to everyone. there like really credible. He looked apart, he could, you know, talk the talk and everyone assumed that, why would this why would this guy make this up? He seems to be, of course, this is what a top gun fighter pilot looks like Okay, so that kind of tells us how he managed to get in CIA. But I think the next question He's is the gold bars is how how do you How do you possibly justify without wishing to give anyone in CI any tips, how is it possible to forty two million dollars of gold bars stashed at your house. We we dont want to give it, you know, I don't want to encourage this kind of behavior, but I'd quite like to know how we did it. So When I put this question to a lot of my contacts They all had the same The sa answer Rush came up with, which is you create a fake Special access program create a highly compartmented program that needs funding is what you do. And what it what it seems like he did, I'm reading a little bit between the lines here in some of the reporting and there's a lot that I'm sure is going to come out I think his special access program may have been under Department of Defense auspices. And he was a CIA liaison to this or overseeing it as part of his work with the Pentagon Right. But that would be because the Pentagon has a much larger budget And because he was sort of sitting at the seams of the CIA, the Pentagon I think it's very possible that neither neeither leadership group had full awareness of what he was doing. Now I'm a little bit reading between the lines here What I find fascinating though is the special access program because initially where my head went when I saw the headlines on this was like, That seems hard becausecause if you were, for example, Let's say you're doing Bill Hayden was doing and Tinker Taylor Soldier spy. And you've created Fake fake agents. Yeah, right At some point There's going to be case officer turnover. L you don't get to just handle these cases in perpetuity And so you could create you know, a network of fake agents or really, really primo fake agent that seems to and you write the intntels that come in And they they're really, really good and everyone's excited about it. But like That is not That is not going to last. It's not sustainable, is it? It's absolutely not sustainable. because you're right. You hand over off an agent to a new officer every couple of years. So unless you were Unless you were bringing them in, it just wouldn't work. And also what's the intelligence and you know where's it going? But also forty two million dollars in gold bars seems like a lot. No agent or even I mean, maybe, you know, that seems like a lot. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing that my You know, for our colleagues havelect is just There's there's a level to this that obviously Rush was exceptionally greedy and or sort of a compulsive likeike he was getting he was getting sort of his kicks out of the con and Maybe maybe the fact that these gold bars like by all accounts his home in Ashburn is, you know, pretty modest. He doesn't seem to have been living outside of his beans I do wonder again, armchair psychology here, if this was just like The thrill of the K was what he was in it for. He's a hoarder. Yeah, and it wasn't about spending the money, it was about taking the money. exakesense But the special access program is really interesting that he seems to have said because it was a continuity of government operation which is basically it's a contingency plan keeping the American government functional in the event of like a massive catastrophe, nuclear war, you know, another pandemic. And it's a big question in a nuclear war How do you keep American intelligence function? Yeah. what if the banking system is taken down, for instance, by a cyber attack, or by in the event of a nuclear explosion or something like that? Now I'm starting to understand a little bit about why gold might play a role because that's, you, rather than just stacks of cash or something else. Continuity of government makes more sense, doesn't it question at the heart of that program is How do we maintain some kind of skeleton intelligence function if the banking system goes down or if Three cities are obliterated in an opening strike of, you know, what becomes a nuclear conflict with the Russians or the Chinese you could start to see how haaving a stockpile somewhere Like having a sight and having gold to continue to conduct operations makeake some sense. Now It's also the case, I mean, it is also the case, obbviously, not this amount of money But in some Geopolitical environments, we pay agents in gold. Like it's very dense Um It's obviously, you know, you can transport it fairly effectively. I thought it would be dionds, little p. It could be either. Yeah. it could be either. That's what I was imagining. Okay. It could be either. So the idea of payment in valuables is that's that's a thing. I mean when we did the Tolkachv episode I think they paid him in um, they went and found some, you know, really expensive jewels at like a Russian boutique jeweler in the States and then brought those to, you know, the Soviet Union to pay him with those. So is there a gold vault inside Langley and again, asking for a friend because I think there's a kind of gold finger style Heist movie, which could be done brereaking into the Gul Vault Langley. Do they do they have like a massive No, storage. No. No well, so here here's the brilliance of what he did because if that was the case There's going to be somebody somewhere Who has paperwork that says David Rush is checked out forty two million dollars in gold. But if you have a special access program like this. that has been set up for continontuity of government operations. And if you have a line item inside it that says there needs to be a certain amount of funding for this Let's say a gold stockpile that we willll use an event of whatever X,, Z catastrophe, would he seems to have done is he read in a few other colleagues. onene of whom was in a position to rove the transfer of millions of dollars into this special access program Then he drew up a fake contract tendered it to a defense contractor who then supplied the gold, allegedly to fund his operations. And that gold ends up at his home in Ashburn. So it's not coming out of a CIA Fort Docks Gold Vault. It's a contract that a defense contractor had to go out and procure this gold we should say none of this is normal. You know, as far as as far as I can tell, this is not like of this daily business of the agency has sort of bubbled up and made it into the press. I mean, this is not a Not a common thing To your point on the on the pavements, though it is it's notot commommon, but also not unheard of for payments to be made to assets. and mayaybe only a few people in the organization or maybe only one person in the organization has ever met them. Once you're in, and I think this is the part that's so I actually think the credential fraud in many ways is the much more troubling problem here because it suggests an absolute failure of the CIA's sort of internal threat, you know processes over the course of like a decade plus Once you're in There's a high degree of trust. I like the way you think making up something on your CV is more worrisome than being able to sneak out forty two million dollars of gold and hide it in your house. That's a very CIA way of looking things. And I think most people would go like the latter is the slightly more surprising thing, but maybe in the world of the CIA, a fakes Bachelor's degree was not caught. That's fine That's my real worldert here. You're outraged at that, but you know, large suitcases of cash, it's fine. That's the way it goes. Well it was interesting because I had this, you know, I'm fascinated by these kind of questions of like, okay Are there examples where case officer is going to make a request for funds and nobody else in the organization has has met the person And sure enough, you know, as I kind of pinged my network, I found examples of this, right? And mean Im not I won't go into any amount of detail here, but there are cases where you know, for example We purchased a property for someone Uh and The only person in the org who had met this you know, potential asset was the case officer Nobody else at that up. So in theory Yeah. this case officer could have made this thing up. and and gotten that money and used it for something else. I mean, there's, you know, case officers do handle very significant sums of cash. I mean, in the Um, you know, I think it was the second series we did on the CIA and Afghanistan after nine eleven. Suitcases. Yeah Yeah, they were millions of dollars were going in with millions of dollars to pay off warlords, millions of dollars. C they have taken hundred thousand dollars out of one of those sacks and put it in their own pocket Maybe I think you probably could have if you had wanted to. And you know, the great quote I got from one of my friends was, you know, the old saying is you don't know if it's a recruitment until you turn the case over to somebody else. and because because again, in that example of, let's say you've been given money to purchase a property for an asset that you invented that case turns over in two years and all of a sudden, you know, the case officer takes it over says, There's nothing here. You're going to prison, right? I remember hearing talking to an MI six officer, I'll be discreet about who who took over in a station overseas. It was a long time ago, fifties Maybe early sixties. And when they took over They realized that the previous guy had just made up a whole network and was just filing reports based on what was in the newspapers. because in those days no one back home would have access to the local newspapers and language who was just kind of writing up, you know all these kind of sources and agents and that was it but I still can't I can't imagine anyone from MI six would would have millions of dollars in gold barsars. No, never. never. Well if there is anyone out there listening who knows of such a case, then please write in the rest is classified at goldhanger d. comot Happy to look at the story. But it does seem curiously CIA. I mean, he does sound like a character, we should say he wasn't a case officer and neither was he He wasn't running agents, but he was quite senior David Rush. That's what's so interesting about him D know, It's not some junior guy. No. So he was he was an officer in the director of science and teechnology So, he's not not a case officer, not an analyst Apparently, you know, from everything I've heard had a lot of friends on the seventh floor, like well liked. He apparently, although Um, there', you know, been Qotes denying this. He apparently was very close with Deputy Secretary of Defense Stehven Feinberg with whom he he had worked on a sensitive program related to China. So this guy, David Rush was, you know, I think part of Part of the reason He got away with it for what seems to be quite a long period of time. was was that He had friends in high places who probably just, you know, they trusted him, right? And and saw him as a competent guide out. I will say there's some interesting kind of interagency shot infata because the DO people that I have spoken to. Directive operations, Yeah. Directoryive operations are I guess there's a little bit of a buzz of like This is what happens when the DS and T people try to run ops. This is the kind of you let them run ops and they're going to steal millions of dollars. Next time someone asks for gold bars, there might be some more questions, I think. They have to fill out some paperwork, bbe next time they Well and that's well I guess I guess we should say that's the thing. He filled out paperwork It's just that He he obviously and this we'll be watching this story u in the in the months to come because I, you know, I think we might he's in custody, obviously. I think we might be headed toward a very interesting trial and we'll of course, cover that if and what we do, But that's the crazy part is that this guy probably also had some witting or unwitting accomplices inside the organization. So a lot of this, you know, there's going to be some house cleaning it at Langley and maybe the Pentagon that' bring more of this to light. So yes, lots to watch there and questions for the CIA. and I think there might be a little bit of house cleaning there. and speaking of house cleaning There's also been some changes at the top of the U.S intelligence community. So let's take a break and afterwards we'll come back and we'll see what Donald Trump has been getting up to with his spies. See you after the break Hi, this is Garal Linica from Goldhangers, The restest is foootball. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate an easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple WS is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than one hundred and sixty countries and with over forty currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. WS uses the mid market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate Know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the wise app today. Be smart, get wise, Ts and T's apply This episode is brought to you by the National Archives. It's Tom Holland here from Gooldhang's The Rest is History. Now American Independence is often painted as a quest for freedom, a triumph of democratic ideals. But it was also a period of immense risk and violence which turned the colonial world upside down. So if you want to go beyond the familiar tales of the Boston Tea Party and Redcoated battalions, I have some marvelous news for you The National Archives is holding a free exhibition, Revolution two hundred fifty America's Independent Story seventeen sixty three to seventeen eighty three. It's not just a story of declarations and battles and revolutionary heroes, it uncovers the human cost of decisions made on both sides of the Atlantic. You'll also encounter voices too often pushed to the margins Don't miss this once in a lifetime exhibition. Revolution two hundred fifty. America's Independence Storory seventeen sixty three to seventeen eighty three, june the twenty fourth to november twenty ninth at the National Archives in Q. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Golhangers The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK In the UK, nearly one in two people will face cancer in their lifetime. The question is, could science stop cancer before it begins? In over the past fifty years, cancer research UK has helped Double cancer survival in the UK. And that's proof of what research can achieve, like take cervical cancer Almost every case is caused by HPV, the human papilloma virus. And when scientists uncovered that link prevention became possible. Indeed it did by a vaccine. and it's protection that works way before the cancer itself can actually grow After the vaccine was introduced, cervical cancer rates in England were nearly ninety percent lower than expected in women in their twenties. I mean, we're now genuinely at a point where this is a disease that is disappearing in younger women in the UK. This is something that I really hope my daughters will never have to deal with. For more information about canancer research, UK, their research, breakthroughs, and how you can support them canancerRarchuK dot org forward slash restest is science weelcome back Enough on gold bars now to the subject of Politics and Donald Trump. and what's going on, David inside US. intelligence because we've had some really interesting shifts back and forth about who's going to be the new director of National intelligence. And we thought it might be an opportunity to give people a little bit of an update on what's going on there and this issue, which we have been trying to watch closely, which is Is there politicization? Is there a risk of politicization? What's going on inside Washington and the intelligence world I guess we should say that the Chronology here starts because last month in May Director of National intelligence Tulsy Gabber announces that she is going to resign effective june thirtieth. Her husband has a rare bone cancer and she wants to be be able to be with him through his treatment. Trump then announces that he's going to name a guy named Bill Pty to the DNI role. Now. Pulty runs the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which is obviously a natural jropping off point to being the head of the U. S. intelligence community He's basically the government's mortgage advisor. He He does he chares Fannie Maye and Freddie Mac, which are these two massive mortgage giants that facilitate the mortgage market in the stage' the mortgage man. He's the mortgage man. There is immediately a high degree of alarm and consternation in the Senate because of the Polty nomination. I think in part because he has no experience And also in part because in his role as the head of the Federal Housing Finance aggency, Polty has developed a reputation as a political atchet man for Donald Trump and there was a fear on both sides of the aisle in the Senate that he would bring that ality to the DNI role, which is supposed to be, we'll talk more about how it's changing, supposed to be a, you know aolitical intelligence and national security job that's given to someone who has deep national security experience becausecause the claim, the allegation was that actually in his mortgage role, he'd been reaching into the mortgage system pull out records of Donald Trump's political enemies. That was the allegation to be used against them effectively, to start investigations against people on the you know, the Federal Reserve, the banking organization, you know people in New York who had been prosecuting Donald Trump. So I guess the worry was that he would bring the same techniques into the even more sensitive world and mortgages of the intelligence community and reach into the intelligence community and kind of pull out information could be used against enemies And also, I think be a hatchet man in the sense of cutting the place and, you know kind of going after and sacking enemies and sacking people with the intelligence world as well. you can see without why there'd be a bit of uproar, which there was. There was. And then so Trump then walks Puly Domination back and says, well, he's just going to be the acting DNI until I find a permanent replacement. Now Poltty could have bann the acting DNI into January and because there was there was so much concern on the hill about Pol's nomination Trump. eventually says, okay, wait, no Pulty will not be the DNI Nor the acting DNI I'll name This guy named Jake Clayton to be the DNI nominee. I also think another factor in this was that House did not extend Section seven hundred and two of the FISA Act, which allows We covever this in our Snowden episodes, but that allows the government to compel U. S. tech companies and telecommunications companies to turno communications from foreign nationals and there can be incidental collection of U. S Personss under that, it's actually a very controversial authority and the house decided not to extend that in part pressure on Trump fully withdraw Pulty put another nominee in and that's how you end up with Trump then nominating Jay Clayton to be the DNI. now Clayton is the US A attorney for the Southern District of New York one of the most powerful positions in the Department of Justice He's also former chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. and in that role, he'd overseen a number of high profile cases, including prosecution of former Venezuelan president Nicholas Maduro. and it seems like CIA director John Radcliff is the one who suggested Clayton to Trump. Yeah, I read that that John Ratcliffe had suggested him being the right person, which is very interesting because once again, it suggests that Ratcliffe behind the scenes is quite influential and in this case has kind of extended his influence even to the DNI where there's been, I think, you know, we might come back to this some tension between the director of National intntelligence and the CIA over who's kind of top dog and who gets to pick who's chief of station in you know, various overseas capitals. So there's a so it's interesting because this you'll be pleased to hear David given your love of the organization is another win for the CIA is what it makes it sound like bureaucratically. It seems to be quite good at fighting bureaucratic bureaucratic battles. But I guess also, I mean we should say with pulty was withdrawn shows to some extent, some of the checks and balances of Congress do work maybe only at the more extreme cases, but in this case, it does seem to have worked. The system kind of force Trump to pull back from something which, you know, people said, this is this is too far Yet It is a a seemically kind of rare occurrence these days to have Congress actually flex its muscles and put a check on the executive branch, but That's exactly what happened here And I really do think There's the fact that the DNI statutorily It needs to be someone who has a quote extensive intelligence or national security experience, which obviously Pty didn't as a mortgageoy. No Pulty did did not. Now you could you could make the argument that Jay Clayton does not happen that either But J. Clayton does not have the same reputation that Bill Polte has for being essentially a political enforcer and for You know, as Polty has for there to be allegations swirling around him that he has misused or abused his powers as head of the Federal Housing Finance aggency for political ends. Like there's none that swirling around Clayton. So even though Clayton I think probably be in terms of the intelligence and national security experience, probably the least qualified DNI that we've ever had in that respect he will not have the same Aura as P had been Polty's nickname was literally Little Trump So Clton's not the say. but I think both Democrats and Republicans have expressed a desire to confirm Clayton really quickly as a result. Yeah. I mean it's worth just maybe a quick moment just to say for those who don't know what the DNI does, the Director of National intntelligence part of the post nine eleven reforms. And they are the manager of the intelligence community. So they're not operationally running things like the CIA and Intelligence Collection or the NSA But they oversee it, don't they? And they also lead the process of briefing the president and they often brief the president themselves. Also, I mean, it's been interesting to see the role evolve because We've had Tulsi Gabbard in it, who is, I think it's fair to say, was a controversial pick in her time and has not been particularly influential either. I mean, she was pretty much marginalized over Iran, Venezuela, a lot of the big events this year. She's not played a major role, which I think is one of the other reasons you know almost everyone thought she was on her way out. It is interesting because it It's felt like There have been instances of politicisation and pressure, perhaps. but also of marginalization, different structures, a kind of fluidity to the U. S. intelligence community under Trump, which This is another side of. I mean, how worried do you think people are people you speak to about that, about the turnover, about who's getting these jobs, about whether they're political it people. or whether they're going to politicize the agencies I think the answer to that question depends a bit on on where you sit because I wouldn't want to create the impression that Tulsy Gabbard or more broadly the way that the Trump administration has interacted with the intelligence community None of those things have prevented it across the board from doing its job. It's not like it's all a sudden not functioning. And so when I talk to people who are who were still inside, a lot of daily life It just goes on as it did before because these are really B big bureaucracies, right? I mean there's eighteen agencies in the U. S. intelligence community And the CIA, you know has upwards of twenty thousand employees, not to mention all the contractors. So These are big, big places that to some degree have an immunity. the whims of what's going on at the highest levels, right That said, my sense is what's happening and you can kind of see this in the way that Trump has leaned on John Radcliffe, for example, the CI director to be the guy in the room when They're making decisions on Iran on Venezuela Raccliffe is the one who's sharing the podium with Trump. when that down irban is rescued in Iran and this interesting piece of CIA tech that we talked about is used to locate him So Radcliffe is is taking on this job is sort of Principal advisor to the presresident for intelligence. It's Jhn Racliff. It's the CI direct. It's theN rather than the DNI. Yeah. The DNI role has I think turned into under Trump a much more political job in which the role is confirm the policy to promote the policy not to an inform the policy. I think that is what's happened to the DNI role under under Trump and The DNI itself is an organization. You know, we should say one of the One of the failures, I think of that, you know, the post nine eleven intelligence reforms, was the DNI was envisioned as the true leader of the U. S. intelligence community with control over budgets and personnel That never happened So The DNI job turned into this kind of coordinating managerial layer that would sit notionally above all of these other agencies, but without any practical budgetary control, for example, over the CIA. The DNI doesn't appoint the CIA director. The DNI doesn't appoint the chief of station overseas That is the kind of the chief U. S intelligence rep in a particular country. Like the DNI doesn't do any of that. And so what instead you have ins kind of the Trump two point zero world I think is a DNI that has sort of morphed into this increasingly kind of political, almost strategic communications role Yeah rather than someone who is You kind of in the weeds advising the president on intelligence matters. Yeah. they're not kind of operationally managing the intelligence community. But you're right. It's interesting, isn't it? Declassification as a tool politics and of communications, that's where the DNI has been used because you've seen these pushes to declassify lots of things. I mean, everything from, I mean, COVID nineteen, of course, we've been talking about lab leaks and things like that We talked a little bit, didn't we about how we've seen declassifications of that JFK files and a course files on. Russia investigation, also Havana syyndrome, something I think we're going to look at soon on the podcast. These issues which They basically want to declassify things to say often the previous administration was wrong was guided by its own politics, had politicized the intelligence community itself, kind of this sense of a deep state hiding things or twisting things. and now we're revealing the truth and we're going to declassify through the DNI. That seems to be the way in which it's been used primarily Exactly. And I you know, I think that administration has been pretty consistent on two big themes related to the intelligence community. One of them is that it's too big It needs to be downsized And you can see that impulse in the way Trump was talking about Pouulttty's nomination, you know, Poltty was kind of there to further cuts. I mean, Tulsi Gabbardt herself would already cut the you know, office of the DNI down considerably. It seems like when, you know, I don't know if that this is going to be Clayton's mandate, but Trump wanted Puli to do something even more drastic. You know, you could see this when Trump took office with attempt to basically offer a buyout to agency officers who wanted to leave, right? So may pay people to exit the organization in an attempt to make it smaller But the other piece, the political piece, the second theme is that the intelligence community is in need of a cleansing I would say, it's in need of a political correction that the intelligence community itself whether it was, as we're talking about this week on the pod, whether it was its analysis on COVID lab leak theory, whether it was it's analysis on Trump and Russia that the intelligence community was itself politicized and therefore is indeed of a political correction. And the declassifications that Tulsa Gabbard made this week about US. funding for bioabs all over the world in particular in Ukraine. the declassification has done exactly that spirit of This was covered up before this wasn't released I Tulsi Gabbert have now releasing this information And so you have this very interesting circle where I think it becomes very hard to pin down. Did the politicization start inside the intelligence community and the administration is correcting that Or is it in fact that the administration is taking a very political lens to the business of intelligence and infecting at least right now, the kind of upper echelons of some of these agencies in particular the DNI. with M more politics than we've seen. over the past couple decades Yeah. I mean, it does feel as if on an operational level, the impact isn't necessarily that big. and I've been speaking to people here know in London and elsewhere who say on a day to day operational level, things are still going okay between, for instance, the UK and the US in the intelligence space. But they are worried, you know, people are conscious of what's happening at the top. And I do think there is a point of which when the political headwinds get really strong and really difficult, that will feed down whether it's into morale, whether it's into staff retention and who stays, whether it's in whether I'm going to put my head above the parapet and say this is wrong or I think this is right when you know that the politics is heading in a particular direction All those things, you can see the potential for it evenven if we're not necessarily seeing, I think a deep politicization at the day to day level at the moment. Do you think that's fair? I think that's fair. I do You know, I think it's probably I think it's interesting to Maybe pull out O example of what I would argue is a pretty egregious example of politicization that occurred under Tulsa Gabbard and kind of look at this and maybe pull out some of the implications of it for you for some of the themes you just mentioned because I think the best the most egregious example that has kind of bubbled that into the open of politicization in this administration was an assessment that was done on Venezuela prior to the raid that captured Maduro. This is eararly twenty twenty five There's an assessment produced by the National Intelligence Council, which is kind of the premier analytic body in the U. S. intelligence community. They were looking at the connections between Duro regime. and this transnational gang Srndi Araua And the Qion was there because Trump administration wanted to show that the Maduro regime had a kind of commanded control structure over top of this gag in order to be able to label the Maduro regime as a narcco terrorist organization and use that as the legal justification for a whole bunch of covert action programs then eventually to go in and arrest him effectively in Venezuela and The National intntelligence Council looks at this question And they conclude that any kind of this coordination between the Badeur regime and Tant Aragua pretty unlikely And that finding runs very contontrary to the administration's narrative on the connections between Maduru and Tay Agua And internal emails later show that Tulsi Gabbt's Chief of staff had instructed the National Intelligence Council to revise the assessment So it could not be used against the DNI or against Trump A revised version softens the language a bit, but it preserves the original analytic judgment, which is We think this kind of coordination is unlikely Details then get leaked to the press And in May of last year This revised assessment ends up getting declassified and released through a Freedom of Information actct request So it's embarrassing because ye it shows that The intelligence community has said to the President, lookook, this is the reality of the situation And the administration's talking points are totally contrary to that Gabb's, of course furious. She fires the chair of the National Intelligence Council and is deputy And then on social media characterize officials as Biden holdovers. whichich I find really particularly galling because I know both of these people they were long time and very well respected analysts who had been at the agency Like since before I joined, right? I mean, so they had served multiple presidents of multiple parties. Its like it's crazy. And Tolsi said they were removed for politicizing intelligence Which is which is this is this kind of opposite of what they were doing in some ways. Weird de loop of the politicization claim. Yeah. It makes it so hard to pin down what's going on. But then But then Tulsi moves the National Intelligence Council, which had actually sat at Langley at CI headquarters. She moves it out to a DI facility and installs the kind of unspecified somewhat amorphous review group that's going to have a look at these National Intelligence Council assessments before they go out And I think this example is a great one because know we've talked a little bit on the pod about how hard it is to pin down politicization claims But I think here we have an actual fact base to show the mechanics of an egregious example of it happening And then you think about think about the implications of this. If you are commission to write a piece of analysis about How is How's the war going in Iran Is Is it going? Are we are we wittning or losing Now Now if you're going to put that piece out, do you want to put your head up and say we're losing and produce something that the administration doesn't want to hear That is the question, isn't it? Is whether you've got people in the room who can speak truth to power, whether when there's a policy shift towards saying, you know, when the Iran war, the recent war was starting. Is there someone in the room who can say, well, look, the intelligence assessment is the Iranians are going to shut the straight of Hormmuz and that's going to be a problem for you. If people aren't willing to put their head above the parapit because they know they're going to get sacked for doing it if they don't pursue the policy. then administration presidents make mistakes because they're not getting honest unvarnished advice. So that That's the risk, isn't it, with politicization, in a sense is you lose what the intelligence community is there for which is to give you an unbiased assessment of what might happen. and I mean just just to finish up. I mean, with Puli' DNI, that would have been mayaybe a worry. I mean, I don't know. did you worry Do you worry about it now? Is it an issue now withith Clayton with Radciffe I mean a little bit maybe, but not as much as it might have been I suppose But it's something to watch The way I would describe it is it doesn't seem like the intelligence community or the CIA. I think I might have a separate thought on the office of the DNI right now If you look at the actual agencies themselves, I would say that they don't they don't seem structurally politicized it's there have been enough instances political pressure and outright politicization where It's a growing risk And There have obviously have been cases. in the second Trump administration. of individual agency officers as we just talked about in this example with the National Intelligence Counil, losing their jobs over basically standing up and saying, this is the world as I see it. and getting fired for it pushed out We had the examples early on of the administration of, the officers who were doing who had been kind of succonded to work doing diversity, equity and inclusion type roles who were basically taken out to the CI Visitors Center and fired and told to leave. So you have you have examples of very significant consequences people who find themselves standing kind of in a kward and visible role that is politically contrary to what the administration wants. And I think that the effffect of that. can be very chilling and also very invisible because this Venezuela example