Escape to the United Kingdom

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the declassified club The rest is classified. com the Russian security Svice Officer Murdered in London. radioactive poison But who gave the orders? And why Well, welcome to the Rest of is Classified. I'm David McLlossky and I'm Gordon Carre. And this week we are beginning A new and very exciting series looking at one of the most dramatic spy stories, I think of this of this century, the killing in two thousand six in London. of Alexander Finenco. Now Ly Finenco is a former Russian FSB security serervice officer and He is murdered in a very shocking way, a way that I think shocked London, shocked the world. He is pooisoned. Polonium And in this series, we are going to be looking at this story, which I think will be a bit of a a murder mystery in many ways, looking at who Litvininka was really? why was he killed? How was he killed the people behind it and it's a story orded that I think lets us back the layers on mododern Russia Vladimir Putin Friend of the show of course, Vladimir Putin. Yeah. MI six spy operations and some really dark corners of the underbelly of the modern Russian state. So it's got a little bit of everything. that's also Gordon, I think it's fair to say That's the the nexus of Russian spies pooison at London Right in the middle of that diagram, you have Gordon Carrera because is this is a subject of a intense interest for you. It is, yeah. defefinitely. It's a really interesting dramatic story with a tenense murder story kind of true crime and all these layers of spy stories. But yeah, for me People might remember this case, but I certainly do because I reported on it at the time and it covered it the aftermath, really for a good decade afterwards It's worth saying there's a lot more to it than I think people may have realized people might know some of the broad outlines, this idea of radioactive poison But I think what's interesting about this is that when you burrow deep into it in the way we're going to do, you can see these other layers, the layers of how the Russian criminal nexus with the security service operates, how that fits with Vladimir Putin How London operates as a place in which Russians could have had at one point free reign. to carry out their operations. and some real deep spy stuff between the MI six and the Russians where the two sides are very much working against each other. So I think there's a lot to the story, isn't there This episode is brought to you by HP. In intelligence work, it's rarely the obvious problem that causes failure. It's the overlook detail or the flaw nobody quite solved, the kind of vulnerability intelligence services look for. And running a business is the same, especially when you're building or growing a team, it's the risks you can't see or don't understand HP designs technology so devices, collaboration tools, and security work together as a single system, helping teams keep everything running smoothly at home, in the office, and out in the field. The protection is built in. hardware level security working quietly in the background helping reduce risk creating more work With a team of business advisors, HP helps businesses of all sizes find technology that fits their needs and budget. To see how HP helps businesses work securely and productively, visit hP d. com forward slash classified. The rest is classified listeners also benefit from ten percent off HP business technology with code TRIC ten. This episode is brought to you by my favourite London review of books. William here from Empire briefly crossing the Golhanger Network Borders. In our journey to unpick the complexities of the past, it's clear that history is not a straight line, it's a vast, intricate and complex tapestry. To truly understand a political revolution or the fall of a dynasty, you have to build up the picture piece by piece. need diary entries poetry that capture the scale of emotions, the secret correspondence of a diplomat and the sharp discerning insights of the era's great thinkers. And it's this art of the deep dive that the London Review of Books champions. They bring together the world's leading thinkers and interrogate a rich range of topics through long form essays Try three months of the LRB completely free when you sign up today. Subscribe at lRb. me forward slash trial. That is lrb. m forward slash trial to try three months of the London Reviewer books for free, just do it. It's the most wonderful journal in the country and you will never regret it Now on Acorn TV, there's a killer on the Ls, Brooks Shields stars in the new original murder Mystery. You're killing me. You spit some c park theory, and I find the evidence. I solved mysteries for a living. I think I'm good to go. Murder has met its match. You cannot be here. This is a police investigation. I've wridden you. What does that mean? It was a big city cub with a small jurisdict S Boomers are so cute when they flirt. You're killing me, all new episodes. Now on Acorn TV I think it in many ways dovetails really nicely with the series we did last year the pod with Mark Galliatti where we looked the rise of Vladimir Putin. the man himself, the system that he you know, inherits and then and then builds. So it's it's also a story about Putin's Russia in a lot of ways. and and you know, I think in the case of Litvinenko kind of people who who stood up against that system and who tried to make Russia different from what it had been And who, of course, I mean, you know, tragically ultimately fail in their efforts to steer Russia in a a different direction. because I mean, the heart of this story is to some degree, a very personal animosity between Venenko, the victim and Vladimir Putin. And it does get to this bigger issue about how Putin operates, what kind of state Russia is, which all matter for today. This isn't just a history story in that way, but it also tells us how and why the Russian state kills its enemies abroad And it's fair to say that a lot of people, not just Lipanyenko himself, who we're going to meet in this story, end up dead in at the very least mysterious circumstances and some Certainly a bit more mysterious than that, very suspicious It's also a story about the British state standing up isn't Eord and just saying no No to Russian influence. Okay. No to Russian money in the city. You know, we are not going to tolerate. Murder of Russian dissidents and British citizens on British soil, right? So it's really a story about about, you know Britain standing up. strong against a malevolent Russia. Wouldn't you say Gordon? orr do I have it wrong? Is it Is it actually the exact opposite of what I just what I just said? Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Youve made your point. It does pain me. somewh. Act no, I'm not sure it does pain me. It perhaps doesn't even surprise me to say that this is the story about The British state struggling to work out what. we're doing more than just struggling to work out to deal with Russia, but actually It's not struggling. There wasn't a struggle, though, right? It wasn't a struggle. They basically didn't want to know. I mean, they didn't want to know what Russians were up to other interests at stake, which we'll get to. and there were a lot of people in the British state who did their best to move on from the murder of Alexander Lipmanyenko and just put it all behind us pretend that it wasn't something extraordinary. I mean, this is the early two thousand era when you know people worried about al Qaedida and nuclear bombs and terrorism. and yet you have Another state. using radioactive material to kill people and endanger people's lives in London. And the British state's reaction, I think is frankly, I think, quite shocking. And a lot of the details that we're going to talk about may not have come to attention if it hadn't been for for instance, the campaigning of Alexander Lipninenko's widow, Marina to get the truth out there It's worth saying, we're going to have her as a guest bonus episode for memers so do join up. If you want to hear that, we'll also be hearing from some of the police officers who are directly involved in investigating this. to just understand just how significant this story was, not just for individuals, but I think for Britain as well as in the bigger spy walls with Russia. Well the man himself, Alexander Videnko is the heart of the story. so maybe we start with with him. So who is Alexandra Lfineeo Gordon, whereere does he come from? So Alexander Lvinko born fourth of december nineteen sixty two in Varnezh in southwestern Russia, then part of the Soviet Union, of course, Cold War days. parents, Walter Nina divorce when he's young and his childhood, I don't think was very easy. He's moving around different parts of the family. From age twelve, he's actually living with his grandparents in a place called Nalchk which is in the footholds of the Cauccus mountains the Caucus is close to Chechnya, which is one of the republics that made up the Soviet Union and will plays a role in this story He leaves school at seventeen, applies to go to university, doesn't get a place, so instead goes to military college. his grandfather had foughted in the Second World War, so that might have been an influence His college is a training center for the interior ministry. So still in Soviet days looccated in the city of North Osetia, about eighty miles from Nalchk where he's growing up And he graduates in nineteen eighty five as a lieutenant or lieutenant. Sandy hair, quite serious, I don't know if you've seen the pictures of when he's young. He's got a kind of both a serious and a kind of slightly innocent, boyish face, which I think maybe goes a bit to his personality as we'll see. And then he serves in something called the Zinsky division of the interior mininistry between nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty eight. I like this. hisis duty. so he's not really a buy at this point But one of his jobs is protecting trains carrying gold bullion around the Soviet Union. So he's more at this point, more like a kind of up market armed guard you know, the spy is such. Well, and then In nineteen eighty eight, He is recruited to join what was then still called Committee for State Secity, of course, the KGB. I was struck here Why? I mean, it it doesn't up to this point if he doesn't have a family history with the KGB Obviously he is inside Soviet officialdom. so I guess that kind of makes sense, but he's not up to this point, you know, he's not been an intelligence officer and its certainly the family pedigree doesn't suggest that This would be a place he would he would wind up, but he he does. I mean, how did the KGB find him and why? Well, I guess he's come through the interior ministry, so it's the next step up if you're ambitious. is to go from the interior mininistry into the KGB. And we should say the KGB at this point is big and it's not like CIA or MI six because it includes a foreign intelligence arm, but it also includes a domestic arm. also includes the equivalent of border guards and quite kind of junior officials, people who are more like soldiers. So I think he's in that world initially. But he's still going to join and get posted to KGB headquarters in Moscow. worth saying a little bit about his personal life because he'd got married already to his first wife, Natalia, when he was still a student. So very young, he has a son and a daughter that relationship's going to fall apart as we see. but August nineteen ninety one, he's in Moscow B moment for the Soviet Union, the KGB hardliners try a coup against Gorbachev, who's then leading the Soviet Union and is reforming it The coup fails, Peters out. The Soviet Union's going to collapse into its constituents parts, including Russia At this point Livvinenko is assigned to a new division which is the economic security and organized crime unit of What was the KGB that's going to become known as the FSB, the domestic seecurity Service, and he' going to work in that. Department until nineteen ninety four This is an unsettled time in the Russian state, shall we say, Russia has or is descending into a kind of wild West style mafia capitalism. I mean, you know, having spoken to agency officers who' served in in Moscow and St. Petersburg over this time period. I mean This was a this was a time in Russia where people who served remember hearing a lot of gunfire in the streets regularly. There was a lot of gag land violence as the Russian state had severely weakened. At the same time, I guess you have something that is trying to be a free market that's taking off. People are trying to make money. You have businessmen who are essentially looting taking over what had been Soviet state enterprises and violence because again, the Russian state scholars would debate whether it has truly collapsed, but it has gotten it has gotten veryery, very weak and violence as a result is being used to sort of settle business deals both small and large as that state control has collapsed, I guess L Panenko is in the middle of this because he is part of the the sort of former KGP unit that is looking at organized crime. Yeah. So he's right in the heart of this new Russia with all its tensions, and he's doing things like investigating kidnapping he helps rescue a nineteen year old boy who'd been kidnapped and ransomed for a million dollars. He's also investigating the act activities of something called the Tambv organized crime group, which is based in St. Petersburg So the ort city looks towards Europe in the northern part, the European end of Russia. And he's looking at evidence that the Tambov group was engaged in smuggling drugs from Afghanistan via Uzbekistan, then to St. Petersburg and then from the port getting shipped to Europe and beyond. And he becomes convinced that there was collusion between the Tambov group and Ford and were KGB and security serervice officials And who by chance is a senior official in St. Petersburg at this time and a former KGB officer First appearance, Vladimir Putin you know Putin had grown up in the city, served in Germany and then comes back to Russia. At this point, he's left what was the KGB in the FSB. He's involved in politics in the city. He's out, right? he's fully out of the KGB. No such thing as a former KGB officer. Do they have that phrase for CIA officers? I don't know. They definitely have it for the KGB. But that's the world of Litivinenko hasn't yet met Putin, but he's investigating. And I guess what he's seeing is the way in which the security services are becoming intertwined with this new chaotic economy and with organised crime, and that's going to be his specialism. investigating those links between the different sides. At the same time you have this effectively a kind of merger between Russian organized crime and the former KGB now FSB Lit Vinenko Y. is trying to uproot the organized crime that has actually embedded itself in the organization that he serves. So you can see there's going to be a lot of A lot of tension in that relationship because he's idealistic. I think that's the one thing about him. He's quite idealistic I think and he believes he can make a difference He's also at this point going to meet another important character in our story, Marina Marina's born Moscow nineteen sixty two. She does five years at university, but her real passion is ballroom dancing And she does this professionally and competitively She marries her dance partner, but that marriage ends around nineteen eighty nine. By nineteen ninety three, she's no longer dancing competitively. But let' tos become a dance teacher And it's interesting because at this point, two of Marina's friends from a dancing days, a couple are getting demands for money. So extortion, threats of violence from a former business associate They report this to the authorities Binenko comes in to investigate And he takes it seriously, he offers to help them, he offers the protection. He seems really dedicated. It's that bit of his personality, which is quite idealistic, quite dedicated people invite him to dinner at Marina's fllat to celebrate her birthday, june nineteen ninety three. Litmanenko's marriage to Natalia is breaking down at this point. So he moves out. they divorce soon after. and then he and Marina get together And they will get married in october nineteen ninety four and earlier in that summer, their son, Anatoly is born june nineteen ninety four. So he's taken a new family life as well in Moscow And it's about at the same time in nineteen ninety four that Litvinenko is going to meet Another key character of the story a man named Boris Berzovsky who I also think it it's sort of rigur that ity Russia Intel story that takes place in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands must include the character of Boris Berzovsky. Exactly. He is all over the place. and he's also somebody that you've met before And you have visited his office, which I think we maybe talked about when we did our Anna Chapman episodes over a year ago, but you actually you knew the man a little bit. Yeah, I wouldn't say I knew him that well, but I did visit him and meet him face to face in his office and we'll come back to that because actually that's going to form partart of that story and what he was talking to me about at that point. reallyally interesting, really important character super smart, brooding, intense, ambitious, Ignacious, a plotter who is going to play a key role, as we'll see in the rise of Vladimir Putin will then become his enemy. Berzovsky had gone into business in the late eighties as the economy is being liberalized. starts with a car dealership, then he moves into broadcasting, TV channels, airlines, oil industry. None of that makes sense by the way as a conglomerate. You wrote it all together like it somehow makes sense as this natural rise. but I think it's fair to say you buy what you can get hold of these years in Russia. They're like privatizing industries from which had all been state controlled And it's just like, yeah, I'll try and buy that. I'll get hold of a bit of that. And I think that's what they're doing. these oligarchs as they become known. are making huge fortunes by being aggressive in how they buy some of these companies which have been state owned, and he's going to become first among equal of the oligarchs, Berezovsky, which also means that he's going to move into politics because business and politics emerging because that's where power lies, it's the nature of oligarchy That means he's going to have enemies and enemies will want to kill him. So The first time he really sees that We're going to come back because there's going to be a lot of plotting on people's lives. But Berzovsky's first plot, there may be more, comes on the evening of june seventh, nineteen ninety four when he's getting into his Mercedes car to drive away from his office and a remote controlled bomb placed under the car explodes His driver is killed, reportedly decapitated, sorry for the grizly detail, but Berzovsky himself is injured but survives. And it's front page news in Russia. It's a big deal, big businessmen The arrival of car bombs as a way of settling business disputes, but the crucial thing is A sandy haired, serious minded thirty one year old FSB officer is assigned to investigate the assassination attempt and that's Alexander Lipanyenko. And Litvinenko. is ordered also to spy on Barzovsky, isn't he? So this gives you a sense of maybe some of the tensions in the organization, which is trying to navigate this chaotic really violent world of you know, sort of post Soviet Russia. while also ostensibly trying to bring perpetrators of these kinds of crimes to justice, but Lifin Nas it's sort of a fascinating element of the man that he's, you know, he's given this this job, which is both go solve the crime, but also spy for us on the victim who is a really important businessman. and I guess it makes sense if you're the FSB. you want to know Barzovsky up to. And you know, you probably want leverage over this guy So Litolienko is going to accompany Baryzovsky on to Switzerland but using an FSB passport, what's interesting is that Lbyenko will end up becoming closer to Berezovsky and in many ways, more loyal to Berezovsky than he is to the FSB the security serervice's employers Very interesting progression. There's a story where A TV presenter on the channel Berezovsky owns is murdered Police come to talk to Berezovsky about it. Berezvsky gets a message to Litinenko But they're coming and Litipanyenko arrives and draws his gun and stops the police taking Berezvsky away because the fear is that this was somehow the whole thing was a pretext to get hold of Berzovsky, maybe get rid of him and bump him off using the police, whichich gives you an idea of how much plotting and uncertainty there was in Russia at the time, but Berzovsky ass a result starts to feel indebted to this security service officer W Litvinenko being paid by Berzovsky at this point in time No I think there might be an element of friendship or loyalty, but the signs are he really does just attach himself and the two men. very different power relations. start to become I mean, friends is perhaps the wrong word. Allies. Maybe that's a better way putting it because they both have Uses for each other Berzovsky iss powerful, Litanenko's in the FSB And Berzovsky's power is going to grow because at one point it looks like Yeltsin's going to lose who Yeltsin being the president of Russia at this time, might lose the nineteen ninety six election to a communist. So Yeltsin needs money. so he does a secret deal with the oligarchs where they're going to throw their money and influence behind his campaign And in return, they're going to get a bigger stake in some of the industries, so even more economic power. Berzovsky brokers this deal. And as a result, he's going to end up becoming deputy head of the National Security Council. in the wake of the election. So you can see Berezvsky is moving closer and closer to power And Lipinenko is to some extent with him in that journey. But then there is this very interesting interlude. because and it I think it really does cast a long shadow over this story for him personally, which is that He ends up going to Chechdya, where in ninety four Absolutely brutal conflict breaks out. Now Techday of course had been one of the Soviet repubs, It's largely Muslim. It' been seeking independence And Lit Vinenko is sent there to work on counter terrorism. Yeah, and it's partly because He's It's close to Nalchk where he grew up. so he knows the terrain And so he's going to get asked to do interrogation interviews of people. He's also at some point certainly going to be involved in combat operations. He's present at one siege and he's going to see the violence that Russian forces use to subdue Chechen desires and fights for independence. I mean, the Russians are going to flatten Chechen cities. There's kind of a line. mean we talked about this, you know when I was when I was working on on Syria at the at the agency. you could you could kind of draw a line in many ways from the way the Russians acted in Chechnya to what they did in Syria, to what what they are doing in Ukraine, whereuss Russian counter inssurgency is basically just Destroy everything flatten flat on the place. and that's what they're doing in Chrechain. it's interesting, because it the experience there starts to change Litanenko There's one example where he's involved in interrogating a seventeen year old Chechen prisoner And he realizes all the pupils in that boy's class had taken up arms. And he begins to compare the Chechen defense of their country with the actions of Russians in the Second World War defending their country against an invader. So he's it's starting to change his mindset to maybe these people are fighting for freedom. So he's idealistic, almost naive and more to different ideas about the Russian state, partly He's developing this sympathy, I think with Chechnya. But soon he's going to be back in Moscow from this interlude and there He's going to directly confront Vladimir Putin in a dramatic encounter which will define his life and there There's a cliff hang Let's take a break and we come back. We'll see. this encounter plays out This episode is brought to you by the National Archives. It's Tom Holland here from Gooldhang's The Rest is History. Now American Independence is often painted as a quest for freedom, a triumph of democratic ideals. But it was also a period of immense risk and violence which turned the colonial world upside down. So if you want to go beyond the familiar tales of the Boston Tea Party and Redcoated battalions, I have some marvelous news for you The National Archives is holding a free exhibition, Revolution two hundred fifty America's Independent Story seventeen sixty three to seventeen eighty three. It's not just a story of declarations and battles and revolutionary heroes, it uncovers the human cost of decisions made on both sides of the Atlantic. You'll also encounter voices too often pushed to the margins Don't miss this once in a lifetime exhibition. Revolution two hundred fifty. America's Independence Stories seventeen sixty three to seventeen eighty three, june twenty fourth to november twenty ninth at the National Archives in KQ. Hi, this is Garalinica from Goldhangers, The restest is foootball. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple WS is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than one hundred and sixty countries and with over forty currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. WSE uses the mid market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate K the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, Ts and T's applly. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gold Hangers The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. In the UK, nearly one in two people will face cancer in their lifetime. The question is, could science stop cancer before it begins? And over the past fifty years, canancer Research UK has helped double cancer survival in the UK. And that's proof of what research can achieve, like take cervical cancer Almost every case is caused by HPV, the human papilloma virus. And when scientists uncovered that link, prevention became possible. Indeed, it did by a vaccine. and it's protection that works way before the cancer itself can actually grow. After the vaccine was introduced, cervical cancer rates in England were nearly ninety percent lower than expected in women in their twenties. mean, we're now genuinely at a point This is a disease that is disappearing in younger women in the UK. This is something that I really hope my daughters will never have to deal with. For more information about CancerResearch UK, their research, breakthroughs, and how you can support them, visit cancerreesearchuK dot org forward slash rest is science So welcome back By the summer of nineteen ninety seven, Lipanyenko's returned from Chechnya back to the FSB back to Moscow and he's in a new in the Lubyianca, the famous headquarters of the Russian security serervices, KGB in the old days, now the FSB, and it's a team for the investigation and prevention of organized crime known as URPO URPO David Are they preventing organised crime? or are they part of it That is the question. The answer is yes, right They're both preventing it and then broadly the FSB is also part of it. and L Vinenko, I do I just I find this fascinating about him Gordon is that he's distressed by this. he seems surprised that the FSB is embroiled not just didn't maybe mundane corruption, but much more serious things like kidnapping carrying out know violent vendettas for both politicians and criminals that's involved in some cases, most likely in murder And so Lenko this kind of idealistic, somewhat naive guy who's supposed to be stopping all as part of his work with Erbo is actually seeing it place on his watch and it's being conducted by his colleagues. And he's outraged by it. thenen the next thing that happens now is in this unit he's asked to look into assassinating No less than Boris Berezovski the guy he got close to I mean, which is wild, you know, that there is a discussion about this. Although in true intelligence, you know service style, the request is given verbally. It's not like a piece of paper going, please assassinate, you know, the deputy head of the National Security Council. But that gives you a sense of what people in this organisation were doing. They were fulfilling vendettas and dealing with political agendas and using murder and criminals to do it. it's pretty It's pretty crazy stuff and Berezovsky certainly has a lot of enemies. He's just negotiated a peace deal with the Chechen rebels. Hardliners see that as a sell out. He's obviously a powerful figure But Livinenko, this is the guy he'd got to know protecting a few years earlier. So he's shocked And he goes and tells Berzovsky about the plot, late ninety seven, early ninety eight. And again, he's not being paid at this point by Berzvsky. Is that right? No I mean far as we know it's it's sort of hard to believe, I have to say just because he very much if you just you know, look at this On the face of it, it very much seems like he's a Berezovsky's one of Bzovsky's agents inside the FS bay I guess maybe he's friends with the man and as a result is you know, because of that friendship is trying to protect him is what you're saying Yeah, I think there's an element of friendship. And there's an element in which they do see themselves as allies against the corrupt hardliners of the FSB. So Livinenko is motivated by this idealism. And Berezovsky is also actually at this point thinking I want to clear out some of these old KGB hardliners and trying to do it. So you can see that they've got an alignment and this is going to draw them even closer together because Litanyenko and others in the FSB want to be whistleblowers about the corruption. They're nervous. They make a video of their allegations. It's filmed by one of Berzovsky's TV presenters A Berezovsky's stature you're looking pained at the idea of doing that. I mean, it's a risky move. It seems like a bad idea Yeah, yeah I guess only in retrospect, perhaps, but at the time, it must have been seen as a risky move in any respect. Yeah, I think a lot of what we're going to see him do in this period. I retrospect looks mad. But at the time, At the time, I think there was still this view that Russia was on a path to perhaps cleaning up some of this problem and that that was possible. Now in hindsight, we know it didn't happen But at that time, I guess they think it is possible. So he, Litinenko and Berzovsky go to the head of the FSB. a man called Kvalieev and the FSB, of course, bosses and others are really unhappy that Levinenko has told V obviously about the plot. It's like, what are you doing? And while are you making these allegations about corruption? That's kind of what we do. And they're saying you've got to withdraw this. So he's now coming into tension and into these clashes with his bosses, he'll talk about getting beaten up in the street, harassed, bugged. Lit Vanko is beaten up in the street. Yeah. Yeah, so he's beaten up by some I think some youths on the street and he he takes it as possibly having been arranged by O his enemies in the FSB. But I think, you know, I'll be sure about And he thinks he's bugged He gets harassed at work. all this stuff's happening. So it's getting spicy, but President Yeltsin removes the head of the FSB Kvalev. So this looks like Berezovsky's Clear out drive is winning and he might be able to increases power. Put a reformer in at the FSB, right, Gordon? Yes, someone That'sone do the outside who's really going to reallyally gonna clean up an Sone you can trust, David. That's what you want. Someone you can trust. So Berzovsky himself engineers it looks like or has a role. putting this, you know, this young guy who well, young ish, you know looks like he might be the future Vladimir Putin. Eddy is the future. is the future.' not in a way people think. Not of the way people think. So he's the new FSB E. We talked about this in the series we did on the rise of Putin with Mark Galliotti for our club members. is At the time it was seen as pretty weird because Putin hadn't been a big senior KGB officer. He'd not been very senior. He'd been in St. Petersburg in a mayor's office And suddenly he's the head of the FSB. you know, he's jumping over lots of other people who should have got that job. He's seen, I think by Berezovsky as a kind of blank slate that Berezovsky can write his own message on and he's, you know, Berezovsky can control him is the thought, right? is We'll see how that turns out, you know, you know with no spoilers here, but let's let's see if Berzovsky can keep Vladimir Putin under control. So Berzovsky arranges for Litanyenko to go and see Putin, the new FSB head july nineteen ninety eight. And this is this pivotal moment. Both men actually because they're going have this confrontation. Itesn't last long, maybe ten minutes, but it is incredibly important for what happens next, particularly for Litvanenko and his life. Putin, of course not a tall man, takes up martial arts at school so he can stand up for himself and likes to intimidate, but on this occasion, he's cagey But we do have an account, don't we? from Litvinenko? himself And it's interesting. shouldh we read it? Do you want to read it? I'll read it Gordon. Let me read. So here's this is Lit Finenk' account of the meeting with Putin He came out from behind the desk to greet me Apparently, he wanted to show an open, likable personality But okay, has Putin ever? Was there a point this is me now. Was there ever a point in Putin's life where he was attempting to show an open Lkable personality, idiop Back to the Lit Van Eco account. we operatives have a special style of behavior We do not bow to each other do without pleasantries and so everything is clear justust look into each other's eyes and it becomes clear, Do you trust the person or not? And I immediately had the impression that he is not sincere He looked not like an FSB director the person who played the director It's a great description, isn't it? I guess, but doesn't I mean, maybe this is my this is my American bias Gordon, but I would presume most FSB directors are also not sincere, trustworthy individuals, but that's that's just, you know, that's just the former CIA M and me. No one would ever say that about CIA people. So Litanyenko So this meeting is so interesting because Lipanyenko is there. outline his knowledge of corruption in the FSB and the links to organized crime rought He's brought along this dossier that he's drawn up. every know dossiers are bad ideas. We've reestablished this in our RockWMD series never bring a dossier anywhere. No. and I'm afraid in this case, this dossier is also going to be destined for the rubbish heap of history because it's everything that Lipnanyenko has collected about links to drug smuggling and organized crime from the FSB offers to hand it over to Putin I'm pretty gu that. You know I mean, it's in retrospect, it seems like such an insane thing to do because Putin does deeply And this is what does Litfeneno not know at this point that Putin has been involved in these activities in St. Petersburg. Maybe he does. maybe he doesn't missed it in the dus the time missed it in the duss yes. But I guess what he's thinking is Putin is perhaps Berzovsky's guy like me Putin is there you know, thanks to Berezvsky to some extent. I think Berezovski always exaggerates how much, you know influence he has over these decisions. But he's perhaps hoping This is the new guy. The last guy after all, got sacked by the president. So maybe this is the guy. But when he tries to hand over the dossier, Putin goes You keep it It's your work I mean, that's a bad start. And then he's also got this list of all the FSB officers who Libinenko thinks are clean. And he tells Putin, Well, there are some honest people in the system And together We could battle corruption and the mafia despite the dangers And I like the description. Putin nods. Yes. Putin writes down Litinenko's home phone number and he says, sureure, I'll call you I mean, It's tragic. You know, I mean, I find it sad. you know, he it is sad, you know, because this is a guy who thinks Everyone else is breaking the rules, but we can change the system And of course, as soon as Lipanenka leaves the room in orders an investigation into Litanyenko and for the investigation into the corruption allegations to get dropped Immediately Putin is showing his hand, I think, isn't he I do think it is a very sad a very tragic undercurrent to the story that There are so many people. Russia at this time who are trying, even inside the system like Lid Vinenko to think that there's a different and better way to run the state. and and they They are ultimately, of course course not successful because they're up against, you know, we talked about this at our series on Vastlely Matroken, they're up against this massive organization, the KGB, which by the of the Soviet areera was the most powerful organization in the Soviet Union and it hasn't been dismantled at this point. Yeah. It's very much very much alive and well. So then I mean, Lid Vinenko, that I find this is wild, Gordon, because n november seventeenth of nineteen ninety eight. He then decides to do something which in retrospect seems totally insane because he goes public. with his criticism of the FSB Yeah. he and some of his colleagues are going to organize a press conference saying they are FSB officers And it's really interesting because the other FSB officers wear ski masks, kind of balla clavers to hide their faces. But Litvinenko is the one guy who doesn't do that Whatatch again, Yeah. I just think he's got this idealistic, as you said, maybe naive, that's maybe I also say the word view that truth is going to win out. I'm going to be open about this. I'm going to fight it And he's gonna to just say that you know, we've received illegal orders to kill to kidnap to extort instead of protecting the state, senior FSB officials are part of the problem. press conference is obviously massive at the time, and you can see pictures of it Berezvski is in the background, of course, and he's hoping he can use this perhaps to get Putin to purge the old guard and the enemies. and he doesn't realize, I think, that Putin is allied to that old guard of know KGB, as you said, FSB officers who are tied into corruption. that he's already chosen his side. He's not capable of being pushed to a different direction. So these hopes are going to be dashed and it marked Lipinenko out as a man who'd Putin's eyes and colleagues's eyes as a traitor And Putin is going to actually single out Litanyenko in a personal way in some comments soon after talking about his marriage and other things. And it's that sense where Putin really takes things personally. He's a kind of guy who has grudges and particularly people he views as traitors. And I think that's Yeah, that's something we'll come back to when we look we look at the murder. So Litinenko and the other men are all going to get sacked. Litvinenko is arrested march nineteen ninety nine. He spnds eight months in prison, the famous Lefortovo prison in Moscow where spies and political prisoners are held. It was Stalin's favorite shooting prison Also Gordon. Yeah. so that's the place to be. I did a decent amount of research on L Forteuvau for my My second novel, Moscow X, which of course, all takes place at Russia. they have this very interesting system in which they don't want the prisoners to interact with each other And so when they're transferred around in the corridors, they actually have these wooden boxes that almost look like coffins that are on either end. So if two teams of guards are taking prisoners down a corarter at the same time, So that prisoners don't see each other. they might stick one of the prisoners inside that box while the other one passes and the guards have these weird kind of metal clackers, like little cricket thing that they click because they don't want the prisoners to hear the guards' voices. And so the guards will click these things to signal who's going into which box and who passes and all that So it's a very U I mean, a lot of deep history at that prison, but it's, you know, it's a pretty grizzly place they actually They shot a lot of people there during the terror and they have these in many of the cells there are these kind of scupper drains that are built into the walls because they were shooting so many people that they had to they had to have clean upp Drain the blood. Right. And so there's drains on the side of the walls and then they've got pressure hoses. or had pressure hoses in most of the room so they can shoot someone, spray the thing down and bring someone else in I' that. It's grim, isn't it? This is the rich history the prison where they hold Lvinenko. And luckily he does make it out and he actually gets it's really interesting. He gets acquitted in his first trial in november nineteen ninety nine. As he is acquitted, FSB officers come into the courtroom and arrest him again. I mean, it's just like you couldn't get a clearer signal. We are going to get you. And then he's released on bail in December nineteen ninety n. This is such an interesting moment because so much else is going on in Russia. B changes in Russian politics present, Yeltsen was ill. hisis priority is getting out of office in a way that protects him and his family from corruption charges They think we need an empty vessel who will do that, who will give us immunity, come up with a deal. Who do they pick Who did they pick Vladimir Putin Vallodia. Yes, indeed. everyveryone thought everyone thought this guy was was malleable ourur guy. Yeah, our guy. And you know, he's a spy. He's going to bring strength and stability. So he gets first of all made Prime Minister, august nineteen ninety nine So he's moving up the ladder from FSB Prime Minister. And then something important happens, which we will come back to because there's a series of devastating bomb blasts which hit apartment buildings in Russia in September, so just after Putin is made prime Minister. Hundreds of people are killed These appear to be dramatic terrorist attacks which scare the country. It's blamed on Chechens confirm the idea you need a strong man a former KGB man, some might say, to take on the Chechen insurgents And this paves the way for Putin's rise and also for a new war in Chechnya to take on those who are said to be responsible. We'll come back to these bombings because they're very interesting and very important Putin's on the rise, you've had the bombings. Yeltsin then resigns New Year's Eve, nineteen ninety nine. Putin from Almost nowhere is acting president Does the deal with the Eltson family's going to become president? Very quickly though It becomes obvious, doesn't it that he's not the empty vessel because suummer two thousand Putin summons all these oligarchs, the big businessmen to a barbecue I mean, I love the image of the barbecue sausages. I don't think Putin would be grilling the sausages himself. Putin had the chef'sat on in the apron and he's turning the sausages over. Yeah. I don't think that's how it works. And he says to the oligarchs, You're not running me, I'm running you you are my guys. you bend the knee or else you're out stay out of politics, then you can keep your money If you interfere in politics, I'll take you down Berezovsky is the guy who is not happy with that. He's one of a few who are not happy with that But he's one of the first ones to really clash with Putin. And there's this really interesting thing where there's a a moment where this really comes to life because A Russian submarine the Kursk sinks in the Berent Sea august two thousand one hundred and eighteen people are on board It's a really dramatic story as families are hoping Maybe these men could be rescued and Berezovsky's TV stations, we said he owned TV stations go hard on the new President Putin critical of him Putin's on holiday It's the it's old twenty six years later, Gord that it's this is now an impossible situation to imagine that you'd have you'd actually have Russian media that are taking the president to task because Putin's Put's on vacation. when this happens, right? Andes it's kind of the response is seen as slow and kind of tepid and Berzovsky just has his stations rake him over the over the coals for this. Putin is not amused by this treatment though No, it's fair to say. So Putin summons Berzowvsky to the Kremlin and basically says, hand over your TV channel Give it to me because you can't go on like this. It's the new Putin way, which is I'm going to put order in, oligarchs aren' going to tell me what to do. Berzovsky refuses And so he flees to the United Kingdom late two thousand by France, I think claim asylum And from there he begins to plot But the crucial thing is he's not the only one to flee. during the year two thousand that Vineno he's out on bail and a very unsurprisingly concerned for his family. He's getting Harassed fair to say and getting messages from people inside the FSB that he's viewed as a traitor Marina has said that her husband had actually been approached by an FSB colonel who had said, We will not continue discussions with you. We will kill you. to be clear, we will kill you and your six year old son You're being prosecuted not for any crimes that you may have committed. Everybody knows that you did not commit them. You're being prosecuted for betraying the system openly acting against the system. So wow, that um That is a very clear message that it's time for the Linmanenko family to go Yeah, that's right. So late September Livvnko tells Marina he's flying to Nalchk to visit relatives, but he then crosses into nearby Georgia. He can get in there. his international passport has been taken by the FSB, but he's gotten an internal one which he can use to cross the border goes to the capital of Georgia Tibilisi He passes a message to Berezovsky. who in turn contacts some of his people, so particularly a guy called Yuri Felschinsky, a Russian American writer investigator of the FSB, Fel Shinsky travels from Boston to Belisi to meet Litanenko, all of this and all that we hear about going to be funded by Berzovsi. Litanenko gets a message to Marina, his wife tells her to buy a new mobile phone Calls are on the new phone. tells us her and Anatoi, their son, has to go on holiday anywhere, just get somewhere They go to Malagar in Spain Th he speaks to her when she's in Spain and he says, he's not in Nalchhek, he's in Georgia. They have to decide if they're ever going to return to Russia. If they go back The chances are He's going to get arrested, jailed, killed Maybe even their son They can't be safe And Marino, I think at that point agrees it's time to go. So meanwhile Litivananyenko's in Tibobisi, Felshinsky is with him. They're worried, they're worried the FSB are going to know that they've gone. they're going to be tracing them. People are starting to call around Moscow, including to Teelshinsky saying, haveave you seen Lipanenko So it's interesting they first try The U. S embassy in Tabilisi, looking for political asylum It refused Hm makes I think it makes some sense. Yeahah. And then Libolinenko gets a false Georgian passport. notot entirely clear how They then used that to go to Turkey to Antalia. Felldshinsky goes and getspererozovsky's private plane. He's got a private jet. It's helpful when you're trying to escape places to collect Marina and bring her and Aatoy to Antalia so the family are reunited Todschitssky at this point is replaced by another Russian exile guy called Alex Goldwb, scientist activist from New York asks people, you know, before he leaves in Washington, he says, you know, how do I get this guy out? Can I take him to an embassy? They say, donon't get involved too dangerous. So now it's Goldfab Litvanyenko. They go to Ankora in Turkey, try the U.S emmbassy there. Litanyenko and Marina interviewed separately by U. S offials in secure rooms. Do you think? I mean would that be CIA doing that? You know, if it's a prearranged, you've got an FSB guy turnurning out I tend to think it would yeah, it would probably it would probably start with a a consular officer and then make its way to eventually just someone from from the agency, I would think. I mean, because it seems like These were not it wasn't a ten minute interview. They end up having longer discussions with him. So I'd imagine at some point, yeah, you would have the CIA involved, whichich I think is interesting because maybe it speaks to something of the mayaybe both the politics of the Tes where of course, Russia is not the foe that it is today and at the same time also maybe what Lidvinenko isn't he's not offering his services as an asset. He doesn't probably doesn't want to be debriefed by you know, the CIA about the inner workings of the FSB. I mean, this is very much a