Escalating Motives for Murder

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the declassified club The rest is classified. com Former Russian seecurity Service officer Alexander Lifinenko is in exile in London but has clashed with Vladimir Putin is only going to increase in its intensity Two men are going to be on a collision course Well, wecome to the rest of classified. I'm David McLosky. And I'm Gordon Carre. And Gord, we are in the second part of our six part series on Alexander Litvinenko versus Vladimir Putin. we left off last time Loo at Lfinic' very interesting career inside the FSB, the Russian seecurity serervice where he had become this kind of I don't know if it's too strong to say crrusader for reform Gordon, but certainly someone who was appalled by the FSB's close relationship with organized crime and many of the sort of dastardly deeds the FSB undertook during the nineteen nineties. Litvinenko has become close to oligarch Boris Berezovsky and has gotten into the middle of this this clash between Putin and the oligarchs that has ended with both Berzovsky and Lyn Fidenko. fleeing sessentially to London and in this episode, we are going to look att the life and times of Alexander Litfinenko is he settles into London and reallyally, as we frame this, you know, the start of the series, is's kind of this murder pistory again examining the multiple motives for the Russian state and Vladimir Putin in particular to want to kill Alexander Litfinenko This episode is brought to you by HP. In intelligence work, it's rarely the obvious problem that causes failure. It's the overlook detail or the flaw nobody quite solved, the kind of vulnerability intelligence services look for. And running a business is the same, especially when you're building or growing a team It's the risks you can't see or don't understand. 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You're someone who can doouch for your whereabouts at the time he gets in. What are you the alibi police? That's literally Exactly who I am. You're killing me. All episodes now streaming on acorn TV We left Alexander Litnienko arriving at Heathrow Airport in november two thousand The UK say he can stay while his asylum application is considered. and he takes the name Edwin Carter I don't know where he gets that from but to keep a low profile while he waits. So he's obviously worried on his tail. He's going to get asylum in may two thousand one. There's a story he tells about this, which I think is quite powerful. He says, When after we were given asylum here, I took my son, Anatoi to the toower of London And I showed him the British crown and I told him, Sonny, you must defend this country in future until the last drop of your blood. and he said, Yes, dad. I told him ' Rember for the rest of your life this country saved us and do everything whatever you might be able to do in order to defend this country. So it's very interesting. he's immediately feeling Allied are grateful for this As we said, Berezovsky, this plotting oligarchical figure has also fled to the UK and Berzovsky is going to financially support Lipinenko and his family they're going to move to a house in Muswell Hill in North London two thousand two where they're going live for the rest of his life. The family take English lessons Alexander struggles, I think, a bit more with learning the language than his wife Marina. Marina gets a job as a dance teacher in Finchley. could of course be a quiet life But it's not going to be because he's got this obsessive nature, he's got this desire to confront what he sees as the corruption inside. Russian inside the security serervice. and he's moving in a circle of Russian exiles and dissidents. One of them is a guy called Vladimir Bokovsky, who was released from Soviet prison in nineteen seventy six, and he talks to Lvidenko about the dark history of the KGB. and Marina will say these conversations help change Alexander Lvadenko, make him a dissident Another friend who lives nearby and is also under Berzovsky's wing is Ahmed Zakaeb, who's a Chechen leader in exile. who's a political chehechen leader But the FSB we will say is an extremist, a terrorist, all these things. So he's moving very much still in these circles And of course there's this interplay between him and his patron Berezovsky because Berezowsky himself is becoming a very active supporter of anti Putin people and organizations. and Ledvinenko is sort of all swirled up in this. and Livvenka does seem obsessive Does it? Yeah Obviously Lidvinenko had seen during the nineteen nineties while working for the FSB a lot of really terrible stuff that the organization was doing. So why is it that these conversations in London? are so formative in shaping his anti Putin and anti FSB worldview because it seems like The reason he's he's in London in the first place is because he had become a dissident from within the system. True. I guess he'd 've seen the recent history and the recent corruption But what Bkovsky and oers will say is this is deeper per rotes into the KGB and into the Soviet Russian past. which explains some of this I think it will change him and Berzvky is there. Berezovsky is ing Lvividenko is obsessed with telling people about the truth about what the FSB is up to Baryzovsky' backing him And he's quite useful to Berzovsky. He acts partly as a security advisor. He's an ex security service officer But he's also going to carve out a new career backed by Berezovsky as a writer an investigator And here I think we get to a really important moment in the story because in two thousand one, Lipinenko is going co author a book with Yuri Felschinsky who we heard about last time helped him get out of Russia also allied to Berzovsky who investigates the FSB and the book is going to be called blowing up Russia. And this David makes a massive allegation against Putin in the FSB, doesn't it does and claims elements in the FSB had been behind the bombing of those apartment buildings that we had discussed back in the first episode in Russia in nineteen ninety nine. the bombings I think it had been influential tilting many Russians into seeing someone like Putin as a necessary kind of you need you needed a strong former security service leader to run Russia because you had these Chechen terrorists conducting these bombings and But Venico says no, no, these bombings were actually designed, conducted by Elements of the FSB, to provide a pretext for a second intervention in Chechdya to cement Putin's rise to power. So the idea here is that you know, this first intervention in Chechney, which began in nineteen ninety four, had not gone well at all. and there was a much more muscular effort that would be needed to subdue the Chechen rebels And I think it is true, Gordon, that Putin used that second Cheechen war. as a way to to justify many of the the sort of strong man or more authoritarian tactics that he'll need to rule Russia And at this point right now in this pod, we're not going to go super deep into this theory. But there is one particular event that I think does bear some mentioning here because it's critical to Litvanenko's argument. Yeah, because after the bobbing campaign starts loocal spot three people in Rizan, a city and Southern Russia unloading sacks from the back of a car with Moscow license plates. They put the sacks in the basement of an impartment block. This looks suspicious. police are called And the police initially say the sx contain the explosives that were used in some of the other attacks But those who planted those sacks turn out to be agents of the FSB. Now The FSB will say the sacks actually contains sugar and it's all part of a training exercise, but this will be one of the incidents, you know, And as you said, I think we're not here going to go really deepper into this, but this is just one piece of evidence which you know, people used to support the idea that perhaps this was a false flag operation run by the Russian state to blame Chechens. create a fear of terrorism, create a sense you need a strong man justify a new war Putin's your guy. We should say I mean the bombings killed two hundred people, if I'm not mistaken, maybe more The idea that Livvinenko is proposing is that Vladimir Putin killed two hundred or so Russian citizens to create a pretext for conflict that would cement his hold on power. It's a wild allegation in some ways, isn't it? Yeah. It's a big, if true story. Yeah. ye. And so the book, which Lipanyenko is gonna author or co author about this comes out Russia first, then in the UK Berezovsk in London helps bankroll and publicize the book And actually this is when I meet Berzovkiy. We talked last su, I'd actually met him. two thousand two, I go to his offices in Mayfair, August of that year and sit down, very memorable for me, sit down in a Big conference room. there's Berezovsky and an interpreter, because Berzovsky' English a little bit You know, it wasn't great And he starts talking to me about the corruption of the Putin regime and he starts talking to me about the apartment bombings. I got I'm there kind of radio reporter with my mic in front of him going, This is crazy. You know, this is wild stuff. I mean, it was a real insight. know, I came out at the time going, I don't know what to make of this. We did broadcast some of the interview on the Today program, ready for, but not that much of it because it was full of these really wild allegations about Putin, which at the time You got to remember now we know what Putin's like, but at the time, it seemed crazy, right? It seemed like a conspiracy theory. Yeah, he's sitting around the table with other leaders. It just didn't compute. but that's the time I met Bozovsky but not unfortunately Litanyenko. And Litvanyko continues to work on the theory, continues to collect evidence, He's working on another book called The Gang from the Lubyiankca which is about his favorite subject, the FSB and organized crime. He's obsessively documenting this stuff It is worth saying, isn't it that a lot of people who investigate the apartment bombings end up dead. I think Parliament deputies who pushes a film about it, you know, another member of a newspaper team who publicizes a book about it. other MPs, there were lots of people who who investigate this, who do end up dead, which some people will also use as evidence to point to possible FSB involvement. obviously it doesn't prove it, but it is interesting And L Vidianko' one of them. What's your? take on this? Was Lithfinenko's theory credible? Was there evidence for it? Well, there's a lot of evidence there. I think at the time, I think I viewed it as a bit out there And I think a lot of people did Of course, as time has gone on and you see more and more what Putin is capable of The bit of you which goes maybe just just grows. So I don't have a conclusive answer. I wouldn't pretend I could prove it or no. But it's interesting, I think over the years, over the last twenty five years or more since the apartment bombings, I think the number of people who go maybe has definitely grown. And I think already we've got one possible motive for Litanyenk's murder there, which he's pushing very aggressively. He's one of the people in the Russian system, off course now he's in London, but he's one of the people who's come out of that system who is linking Putin to this atrocity, really. I mean, he's claiming that Putin and the people around him killed hundreds of Russians. It's a really, really big claim, yeah. Well, I guess there's the fact that, I mean the FSB already views Lit forideto as a traitor, right? to be even even before he started to make these claims It seems like he wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been so implausible that he would have been on the FSBs hitless because he's a you've seen from the FSB's Lens. He's a defector. He may not have been a spy defector in that way, but he's gone. he's left the country. He's confronted them about corruption, then fled. So he is getting harassed in London Russian diplomats from the embassy turn up at the Lipinenko family home and say they want to see him He's getting calls from people A former colleague emails from Moscow and says another FSB officer had said the book had led to him being sentenced to extrjudicial elimination So already this is two thousand three though. So we're still a bit away from his murder, but you've already gotten onene motive I guess, if we're trying to put that together Lit Fineenkco also, I mean just very practically He needs to find work. Doesn't it? I mean, he His English is not great He's initially bankrolled by Berzovsky, but It seems like those payments are reduced You know, and it started in two thousand three And L Fideno is increasingly you know needing to earn earn money for himself. So he moves into doing something that, you know, sounds like what a private equity firm does, due diligence, but it's also it's a little bit shadier, I would say, a little bit operating in kind of more of a gray area. This provides another possible motive for his murder, his work in what's called due diligence. as you said, a murky world. And these are the years when London gets known as Londonrad, late nineties, early two thousands becausecause Russian money is flooding into Britain a wealthy Russian community embedded in London life Oligarchs, businessmen. Some of them here for good, some just kind of coming briefly in and out of Moscow. It's a short plane ride. Visas in those days were pretty easy, lotots of places to shop H all those things There's a lot of Russian dirty money coming into Britain. These were the years when lots of money was being taken out of Russia because of the corruption, the fear politics could take it away. So you get hundreds of billions of pounds of what is often criminal money laundered through London and the city. L touch regulation. more like no touch, right? It feels like no touch U L looking back. the amount of money that comes through the UK is astounding Some estimates put the number at around one hundred billion pounds over the past twenty years. So now post Ukraine and it's kind of hard to imagine it was ever like this. but You know, I mean, this was a time period where exiles like Berzovsky or London You also have Putin's people there Uh, you know, in two thousand three Roman Abramovich buys the Chelsea foootball Cub And Iramovich had been he'd been it was crazy. He'd been a Berzvsky protege. at the time but of course ends up being closely Allied to Putin. So you you have this you have a real Russian stew aborsed of Russians in London in those years. L Faneto' just just one of them. Yeah, and that's exactly right about. Abramovich and Berzvsky because you've got both a guy plotting to get rid of Putin and You know, one of Putin's wealthy allies all mixing in London British intelligence, MII? Closely following the matter, right? Dep very closely watching these Russians Well, I love the fact that you know what MI six officer finds out in the nineties, that they've stopped even monitoring the phone line of the head of Russian intelligence at the embassy in London And he's like, what are we doing? Which is crazy. And of course, this is now we're into nine eleven after the septtember eleventh two thousand one attacks, when terrorism is the priority So within MI five, the amount of resource they're devoting to following Russian spies is going down, down, down down and the amount of resource they're spending on Chasing terrorists is going up. So that's one of the problems. It's giving the Russians also freedom to manoeuver in the city Leanko knows this. But the key thing is you've got all this Russian money coming into London. You've got people wanting to make money in Russia And that's when you need this due diligence work because what it's effectively doing is saying, if you're a British company, you're going into partnership or you're opening up a factory with someone in Russia you're having a Russian business partner come here Who are they? you know, are they are they who they say they are? Are they legitimate Are they? and this is the big question people want to know Is their money dirty? Are they involved in organized crime? Seems like the answer to that would almost always yes. Well, maybe not always, maybe not maybe not maybe it's also a question of degrees. how how much was it And that you can see absolutely Why there, Lipinyenko iss really valuable, isn't it? He's a former security serervice officer who is involved, he'd been involved in investigating corruption. Yeah, that was his job. That was his job. So in some ways, he's really well placed And he works for three firms mainly, Risk mananagement Limited Tight on International Limited and Errenis UK limited. It's interesting. just we won't go they all are they all based in Mayfair, Gordon? They are all based in Mayfair. How did you know? Just a wild guess Just a while I guess. Anyone who's been around Mayfair, particularly in those years will have not been surprised by the Russian accents and the the Russian money that was very very evident. So risk one of the risk is really interesting because it grew out of an earlier business set up by a guy called Stephen Curtis. and he'd been a lawyer who worked for oligarchs, including Berezovsky. He dies in a suspicious helicopter crash in the UK in two thousand four. And it's fair to say that as we go on through this series Od unusual. Deaths are going to be a feature, not just for Lipanenko himself, but This is the world that we're talking about. and the companyies of course pretty vague and secretive about Litanyenko is doing and what cases they've got. But for instance, for Risk, one case that they asked him to help with was acting for a big vodka business. which thought that the Russian government was trying to put them out of business by sponsoring rivals and they're looking for help on that. So this is the kind of work he's doing He is doing some work as well in this period that's more byy adjacent, Eespionage adjacent. Isn't he? So yeah, he's looking at transcribing tapes of conversations from a president Ukraine looking for dirt. He's involved in a Chechen cause thanks to his friendship with Ahmed Zakv. and David, you'll be pleased to know Here's where Vasilim Metrokin comes into the story as well So my favorite KGB archivist So theres there's a relatively new book out, isn't there, Gordon asley Matrokin. Oh, David. you mentioned that. Is it in paperback yet, Gordon? How funny you mentioned that? And it's not like I'd noted it, put it in my notes in bold. But there is a paperback book, which is all about Vasilia Matrokin, the man who tried to kill the KGB, which is a brilliant book. Oh, now I can't really say that because I wrote it. But anyway, it's a book. It is a b of paperback. It's a book. It is a book. It is a book. and we never plug our books here. But it there is a relevant here. There is this is relevant to the story. I promise and we'll come back to it. becausecause Matrouck could have fled to Britain with KGB secrets. nineteen ninety nine Some of the archive gets published And it stirs up interest in countries about what details about KGB operations, interfering in politics, paying politicians are in the files. And in two thousand two, the Italian Parliament establishes a commission to investigate the claims that come out of The Mitocan arrchive and an interesting character who I've met called Mario Scaramella to sound like something from a Bond film. Who was who's the guy the man from the Glden Camp? W Saramanga. sorry, I'm getting. But Scaramella becomes a consultant to this commission The Mitrocen Commission looking at whether KGB money had been financing political parties in Italy And he is introduced to Lipanenko, two thousand three, who agrees to help him with these investigations. They meet three or four times in Italy and London, Litinenko's passing on information, including about organized crime the entanglement of the FSB with arms, dealing and other things. So that and we'll come back to that because Sarameella is actually an interesting character in this story And he's also going to get much more involved in the spy world. and maybe there Gordon, let's take a break and we come back. We will see how Litvinenko comes to cross paths with MI six. Hi, this is Garalinka from Goldhangers. The restest is Football. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate an easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than one hundred and sixty countries and with over forty currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. YS uses the mid market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate Know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, T's and T's apply Welcome back course Gordon w Lit Fanino had arrived in the UK. He hadd clearly been interviewed by MI five and MI six before for being, I guess, granted asylum or while being granted asylum. And one thing that he had warned them was that could see Russian organized crime world that he had been examining and tracking it as an FSB officer. throughout the nineteen nineties was was now exporting its work into London, off course, that's going to be of significant interest or should be of significant interest to Britain's spy agencies. Yeah, that's right. I think He can see that All this dark corruption overlap with security services that had existed in Russia being transferred to London because so much Russian business and money and some of the oligarchs were moving to London. So it was coming with them he's also starting to engage more with MI six particularly Partly because the money from Berzovsky is being reduced over time. and he's looking for other income. And he starts working for MI six as a consultant Now it's crucial here. we' quite specific about what he was doing and what he wasn't doing, but there is also a separate question which we'll get to, which is what the Russians thought or knew about what he was doing But one thing to be clear about is he wasn't a spy four MI six when he was in Russia when he was in the FSB He was not an agent being run by them in that sense. the UK goovernment, obviously always know neither confirm nor deny, but we're sure about that. But when he comes over to the UK, does start doing some work for them as a consultant Marina, always says he was never an agent. You can immediately see how the Russians P see I would Yeah, the difference they'll be happy about that. Sen from Moscow, what is the difference between him being an agent and him being a consultant. Consultant. Yeah And he's going to get he's on the payroll. He gets a steady two thousand pounds a month. It's not insignificant from two thousand four directly into his bank account from MI six And the Brits put him in touch with European security services, particularly the Spanish. So the Russian mafia had put down deep roots in Spain all these Russian businessman buying property on the Spanish coast And so L Vinenko starts to travel out there from late two thousand four. Spanish judge is investigating these criminals and Lipyko's helping him. And the Spanish judge will say that Litonenko's thesis the intelligence agencies controlled organised crime in Russia had proved accurate So his argument that Vinenko's argument to the Spanish is the FSB at this point is absorbing the mafia taking control over it. eliminating non compliant mafia bosses. and he Lipanyenko is providing information to the Spanish to go after some of those mafia bosses who have taken residency in Spain. He's also going to do something much more sensitive, isn't he? because he's going to start Psotsentially pitching people actually work with MI six. So again Sen from Moscow This looks a lot like a guy who's defected and who is helping a hostile security service target Russians And that's what's interesting is this is one of the per layers of Litinenko's work. which has still not entirely been unearthed in all the inquiries, but which I spent a bit of time investigating. And it's To explain them, a lot of these different strands of the work he's doing the due diligence, the politics, but also this spy world and the consultancy world and even the pitching world, they're actually all going to collide with his relationship with one other person who he thinks of as a friend But who, it's alleged, will kill him And that person's name is Andrey Lugabvoy. So let's spend maybe a few moments on this other character, Andrey Lugabvoy and how he meets Litipanenko. becauseuse Andre Lugvoy was born Baku in the Soviet Union, nineteen sixty six, four years younger than Lipanenko. Family involved in the military. his grandfather fought in the Second World War. hisis brother serves on nuclear subs He goes to military college and then he joins the KGB's ninth directorate which provides security for senior officials and it's going to become the Federal Protection Service. So it's kind of high end bodyguards But in nineteen ninety six, he leaves that to go work for Boris Parzovsky So he goes to work as head of security for Berezovsky's TV station. And then in two thousand one, after Berezovsky flees, Lukvom was arrested for trying to help one of Berzovsky's allies, guy called Nikolai Glushkov also escape flee Russia And just as a very brief footnote, worth saying Kushkov will be found dead in the UK in his home in South London, twenty eighteen. Another one of those people. I mean, from here on out in the story Garden, you could almost assume that anybody who is mentioned will wind up dead because the the whole cast of character is basically goes. Yeah. I mean Klushkov is found strangled but it's made to look like suicide in his home in South London twenty eighteen. But the Glushkov, Berezovsky ally Logavvoy arrested for trying to help Glushkov escape Russia Now this is where it gets murky if it's not murky enough. Lugaboy was said to have spent fifteen months in prison. Now, it's possible that when he was in there, he might have been approached by the FSB to work for them infiltrate Berzovsky's circle, which would make perfect sense, wouldn't it But others even wonder if he had never even ended up in prison, that he'd never actually spent a day there. but that was all a ruse to kind of get him to look like he was loyal to Baryzovsky because other prisoners, including Glushkov say they never saw him in prison but something is happening here because after he's released, released from prison in two thousand two, he sets up his own private security company in Moscow, which is quite successful. Which seems odd for someone who had gone to prison for helping But essentially a Putin enemy, right So That's odd Yeah, I think it's odd. The fact he can travel, he can go to London, but he's still running a successful business in Moscow and he's close to he's in contact with Berzovsky. all of that feels I' know what do you think? but it feels to me like he's already being run by the FSB at that. But Libinenko and Lugvoy had known each other in Berzosky's circle in the mid nineteen nineties. They've both been around Vzovsky, they'd lost contact But then again, it's interesting, isn't it? Be LookA Vid gets back in touch with Lipnanko October two thousand four Look Voice says I'm over to see a football match someone one of the teams, one of the Russian teams playing Chelsea U he's a big football fan. comeome back to that. U they have dinner. L in Yeno Loid a Chinese restaurant in Souhou And L look Voice says, Alexander If you'd like to work with me We can earn some good money together And I guess Lit Fineno, I mean, I guess this would on O one face of it seemed to have be a failure of his due diligence capabilities because it does seem like Lugavoy's prison story and the fact that he's now successful would be odd to L Vinenko, but on the other hand Lit Faneco knew him, right? I mean Yeah had Luaoy had been in Berezovsky's circle m so he's got a he's got a personal connection with him that may be you know, doesn't set off his, you know, set off his anttenna when he's thinking about Lukeavoid's recontact. it makes sense. It's plausible. Yeah, it does. Yeah. And you can also see why it's kind of useful for Lipanenkke because he's doing this due diligence work He money Yenker can't go back Yeahah, he needs money and he can't go back to Russia to talk to people, but Luaboy he' going back and forth between Russia and London And he's a former FSB officer. So So the idea of kind of doing some business together seems pretty good. So it looks like Levinga did trust La boy. And I think that will be proved obviously a mistake He's going to introduce Lugovoid to Marina, Perzovsky's big. I mean Berosk has this crazy birthday party at Blennim Palace. in january two thousand six, which L a' going to attend. I don't know where you have your birthday party, David, but Bled in Palace is not where I I have mine, mine'sorm be down the Curry house down the road, if anywhere. I think if you know, if the podcast continues to do well, Gad I mean don't don't cross it up. Don't cross it up the list. Don't cross up the list. That's where but that's where I think I think it'll be Sandbrok or Holland to have their birthday party there first before before Yeah Rest is history, guys. Yeah u guys can dream for us an invite, you know, we serve drinks or something like that.. But so they're going to start doing some business together. Lipanenko gets Lgavvoid to help with the Vodka investigation spring two thousand six these different companies are, you know, employing Livinenko, he's realizing it's useful One of the companies is trying to do deals with Gazprom. Lipnieker says Oh, I've got a friend who's got contacts in Russia and any kind help us. So Lu ofys coming to the offices, coming to some of the meetings in Mayfair this swanky bit of London with Lipanyenko. to meet some of these companies. L ofoys even going to Litinerko's home. whilst Marina and Anatolia away on holiday. And it does seem like Libinenko seems to have viewed him as a good friend And, you know, that that I think is going to be a little bit embarrassing for him and awkward for him when that Judgment is proved wrong. And then Luovoy is also going to introduce Lipinenko to a second person A guy called Dmitri Kovtune. And I'm afraid this is the second of the two people accused alough they of course donight of killing Lipanenko. And I guess Kovtune, I think Lger Boy comes across as When you see being interviewed as a kind of Russian FSB hardware You know, whereas Kovune I think is a little bit less professional in his background than Lgaboy. I mean Perhaps even somewhat clownish, but I think that's maybe overplaying it slightly because it's you know he is said to be a killer. Well, and who is Carftoon Where does he? Where does he come from Cop and Luab Boy had been old friends as children because their fathers had served together in the arrmy, Koftin joins the army, gets posted to East Germany, marries his first wife there. And then, only a few months after marrying, discovers he's going to be sent to Chechya. This is like nineteen ninety one. His wife doesn't want to leave Germany, she's German and Kopfatu doesn't want to go. so he deserts in Germany in nineteen ninety one and claims asylum and he ends up in this hostel for asylum seekers in Hamburg. he drinks heavily. And his wife has a great description of him. she says He had all sorts of dreams and plans, none of which he realized, however Dmitri wanted to be a porno star I mean I mean, hold on. that came out of nowhere. whereere you just like gota drop dropped that it. Was That was his wife saying that? That was his wife That's a quote. So he's telling his wife. I mean, so I mean, it's one thing for, you know, your wife to go Oh, he was a bit of a dreamer. He's always trying to come up with sk. He's a bit of a dreamer Wanted to be a porno star, yeah. So bizarrely that marriage breaks down. Yeah. it's odd. Didn't see that coming. D didnid't see that coming. But then he's he's in Germany. He marries again in Hamburg in nineteen ninety six. He's living off benefits, he works and this is part of the story we'll come back to he works in a restaurant called Il Porto as a waiter, cleaning dishes His second wife says of him, I love these descriptions from you know from his Second wife, this gu. everyvery woman finds Dmitri charming It's just he does not fancy working and he's not a family man He's more a man about town. I had to do everything. I had to set up letters on the computer. He was not able to do this. Dimitri was no handy manan. He could not even bang a nail into the wall I mean I did u These are devastating quotes from from the XY. I think we're getting a p picture of Kfttune here. So Kfttun though, He goes back to Moscow. He goes back. It's kind of interesting, isn't he claim asylum and goes back. and he gets involved in technical surveillance, so bugging. Of course he knows Lugabvoy, so LugabVoy is going to in two thousand five say, well, maybe you can help me out with your surveillance skills for my security firm. So we've got this relationship between Luga Voy and Lipidenko. And this is I think we're talking about layers of this story. and this is where we get to this I think the deepest layer We hinted at it earlier, this idea Lipanenko is also potentially pitching at people. on behalf of MI six. and he, Lbinenko is going to realize that Lg aoy be useful potentially to be pitched at I think this is the bit which I've looked at this and I've investigated it and it is murky And my sense of this is that this is not MI six tking him to do this. He's a kind of consultant on organized crime but he's trying to prove himself to be useful to them So he is to some extent, almost Tlon sing up points. asking people, suggesting people to MI six, trying to kind of broker contacts. So he's not a Sy spy. I mean I don't know, is he what you'd call an access agent? I'm not sure, but it's It's an interesting row I guess I don't I find the definitional point to be that murky. I think he is acting as an agent you know, it it just seems and I agree access agent, maybe a social broker. he's someone who I could imagine you know, in this kind of early two thousands period, he's being paid, as we said, he's being paid two thousand pounds a month from MI six It's going directly to his bank account Part of that, I could imagine at any point An MI six officer, you know, sitting down with him somewhere in London. and depending on what operations MI six has going in Moscow. I could see them asking all kinds of questions of Livinenko about where certain people fall or you know, their political beliefs, their connection to their network There's all kinds of questions that it's not that he's providing foreign intelligence that's then being written up in a report and as being incorporated into, you know, an analytic product like a Like a Gordiavsky, right? He's not that Um, he doesn't have, you know, ongoing access inside the FSB But if you're trying to get a sense of the networks and the the kind of social context the familiial context for people, the background, the history It's almost implausible to be that MI six wouldn't have sat down with him and tasked him for that kind of information Um, ye. So yeah, he's, you know, I think he's he's in He's an agent He's just not he's just not in Russia and he's just not providing FI. but he's he's an agent. There is one report which will come out later and it's only in the Russian media. so information can be sure about it, but there'll be a major in the Russian tax police. claim that Lipinyenko in two thousand two had introduced him this major in the Russian tax police, to an MI six officer who then starts paying him two thousand euros a month for consulting services and they have You know, the major has meetings with MI six over whiskey in third countries like Turkey and Finland Libineko sometimes attending and that he's provided with a mobile phone or a special sym card So, you know, there are these claims that he's involved in this kind of spyw. ople I spoke to are obviously very careful about what they say, but the sense I get is he was not easy to control. He was often doing his own thing, trying to prove his workth I think senior people in British intelligence from the time. I think conceed they weren't always aware enough of what he was doing and some of the risks he was taking and some of the things that are going on, becausecause this is where it gets back to lookg of way because Lipanenko looks like he was trying to provide access to Andre Luaboy. for British intelligence. Now maybe doing it off his own back, maybe at their instigation, that's bit unclear. But we know about this because Luavvoy himself later talks And you got to you know, take it with a pinch of salt, but I also think it You know, there's reason to think it's plausible Luovoy will later talk about being approached by MI six These claims get dismissed later, but it's him mudding the water, trying to kind of know, make it sound like MI six was behind the murder and things like that. But the suggestion is that LugAVoy is introduced to British intelligence. and LugAvooy will claim, who will later say, it began to dawn on me that these meetings for Biness consonsultancy which had been set up were notock again. sllowly it began to dom under me Oh maybe this is being paid through an offshore company in Cyprus. And then he says like, I was alarmed because it was public domain information which could be easily found on the internet It became clear, L a boy will say, that the purpose of the Rumeration was to involve me gradually inter cooperation. Now I have to say this is I don't know what you think, but we know this is how spy services work, don't they? They do this thing where they'll lure people in for business consultancy. justust remember that next time you get asked. and you get overpaid for some bits of information, but it's about establishing a relationship and then you slowly dial up how secret or how sensitive the information is. that does feel plausible and that's what happened with Lgavoy. Does it make sense that MI six would want to recruit Lugaboy Would he make sense as an asset of some kind Yeah, what do you think? I mean, I think he's got contacts in the FSB.s he's running a security company in Moscow He's being asked to do things. I mean, that's kind of interesting, I'd have thought. He's going to pick up stuff on who's close to Putin, what's going on, who's got business rivalries or animosity because they're employing him to spy on the other one. that could be all useful information. He's got a company so he could provide all kinds of services, cover services, things like that for, you know agents or officers who want to go in and out. Yeah, all kinds of interesting things you could do with a guy like that Yeah I think so. And so he's going to claim that they, you know, the Brits were trying to, you know, gather dirt on President Putin and his family and or incriminate people or do things like that you know, who knows? hard to know. and there's definitely a bit of him trying to smear MI six afterwards. So you have to slightly aim off at least a little bit. But he's going to claim again, these are claims from Luavoy. he's given a special phone by MI six officers who he meets that he's to use when calling from Moscow, but here's the thing He says Well, when the British agent started approaching me, one of the first things that I did, was to inform the FSB So they wouldn't accuse me of being a traitor or spy Now that may be true, but equally as we said before Maybe he was already working for the FSB having been turned around the time of that prison sentence in two thousand two I think I'm more in the him being turned earlier. But even if he hadn't been turned earlier, he's definitely now telling the FSB And this is the crucial bit. He's telling the FSB That he is being recruited or tempting. to be recruited by MI six. person who put them in touch. was Litanenko I mean, that's a B big deal, isn't it? And of course, Libinenko and British intelligence think that they're cultivating Lugvoy as some kind of agent and it at the same time though, what's more likely, I think we're saying going on is that Lugavoy has already he's already acting as an FSB agent and he is effectively using this access to this community of Russians in London to feel out Putin opposition. and to penetrate Putin opposition and report that back to Moscow. And I guess after this after the set of interactions, what the Russians now think is that former FSB officer Alexander Litfenko is in the middle of this swirl and is working actively with MI six. penetrate Russia and Russian institutions, right? So Yeah I think what we've established, Gordon is that there's a lot of different reasons for M and the Russian state to want Alexander Lfinankk go out of the picture. And then at this point, so now we're getting into two thousand six. and this is where Everything starts to heat up So the due diligence work as well is going to get more sensitive One of the companies Titan asked Libinenko in the summer of two thousand six to do a report on a senior Russian politician called Vikor Ivanov, former KGB man risen with Putin from St. Petersburg, becomes head of the Federal anti narcotics aggency And you know, this, you know, someone's thinking of doing a deal with him, they want to know about him first report that Vinenko hands over about him was only a third of a page long and not very good It had been co authored with Laboy short. It's really short. It's not very good, is it? The little paragraph is Yeah. Yeah. So he's been doing this this work with LgabBoy and it's a pretty crappy report. And the guy who runs the company is like, That's not good enough and he meets Lga boys well and he's like, I don't like this guy. So Lipvanko iss told, go do another rep So this time he turns to Yuri Schwetz former KGB officer who now lives in America, once met him at a diner in Virginia. And he well, hold on, hold on. What diner what was the context for the diner visit with Y Swetz? Well, I was in a maybe it was a little more like a mall. I can't remember what time of food. Maybe it was like a diner in a big mall in Virginia. And he's a very kind of suave you know, former KGB officer who just left at the end of the Cold War and now does this kind of due diligence work. It's quite of an interesting character. Wrote quite a good book actually about being a KGB officer in America at the end of the Cold War, which I was talking to him about. so Livinenko, the Lugab Boy cooperation created a crappy third of a page report. Now he does something with the Sveetz and it's like eight pages you know, about Viktor Rivvardov, you know, really interesting But here's the thing Litinenko, late September. gives this eight page version that he's done with Schwtz to Lgab boy and says, hey, this is how you do it. This is how you write a really good due diligence report with loads of, you know interesting information on Russian politicians And he's given it to Looka Boy. And Schetz when he finds out is furious, he's like, what are you doing? This is dangerous Handing out this stuff, it should be confidential. And the report leads to the collapse of a business deal and losses thoughtought between ten and fifteen million dollars. For Ivanov. For Ivanov or for Putin's friends, Yeah. So now you're also getting a kind of insight into the other motives that are going on because Litanenko's reporting for due diligence is costing people millions of dollars And Luovoy knows about it. Luovoy flies back to Moscow. and of course, what happens? That report about Ivanov written with Schetz and Lipinenko find its way to the FSB You know, he he'll say, oh, I was stopped at the airport. They found it on me H, more likely he gives it to the FSB because he's working for them. Either way It now means the FSB and probablyably Ivanv himself. No Litinenko is producing reports, which are kind of crashing business deals, you know, for them, which are costing them You know, millions and millions of dollars. So there you you know, so you've got another motive now, haven't you? We've got a commercial motive because the due diligence is costing Putin allies money we have a political motive because Lit Vineno has essentially said that And he's published a book That says that Putin and the people around him are responsible for the apartment bombings and I guess we have a sort of counter intelligence or security motive because Lidvinenkco is an access agent. a social broker of some kind. consultant for MI six So yeah. There's a lot of A lot of reasons to do it. So as we get into the middle of two thousand six Livineeo has been in the UK for how many years? Five five to six years. Yeah. Yeah. So he's he's heating up It's heating up. There's been this kind of build, maybe in isolation, none of these things were quite important enough for the Russian state to order a hit, but all of them together And byy the time we get to two thousand six, it's just you know, this is a guy who's causing problems on many different fronts and time to act. Time to act. I mean, it's the thing. sometometimes you're looking for a motive. I think in the case of Litivinenko You don't have to look that hard. It's choosing which one or trying to work out which one of many because there just are so many reasons why the Russian state might want to kill him. Well maybe there Gordon Let's end this episode when we come back next time We have a look at the crucial weeks leading up to Ledvinenko's murder. including the fact that his assassins will try multiple times poison him before they finally manage to do the deed. That's right and just a reminder that if you want to hear that right now, you can, you don't have to wait. Join the decclassified club at the rest isclassifiedy. com where you get the early access to all these episodes to the bonuses where we're going to go deep into some of the topics surrounding the Lipinenko case and talk to people who are directly involved and you get abolute listening all kinds of other things as well. So do remember that. donon't forget as well live show. We' got live show, fourth and fifth of September on the South Bank in London. part of the restest is Fest. the two of us on the Friday with the Mooch Ay Scaramucci on Saturday isn't it? So that should be U entnertaining and enlightening Well, at least one of those two things, Gordon. att least one. Yeah. Do get your tickets for that because they're going fast. But otherwise we'll see you next time