Regional Sentiment and Anti-Western Views

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I've wridden you. What does that mean? It was a big city cub with a small jurisicion Boomers are so cute when they flirt. You're killing me, all new episodes. Now on Acorn TV Well, hello and welcome to a very special bonus episode of The Rest Is Classified. Gordon Carrera is not with me today, which is, you know it could be good or bad, depending on your persuasion, but he is off and instead I am joined by the award winning CNN international correspondent, Jamana Karacha who for more than two decades has been reporting extensively from countries all across the Middle East and North Africa and has been integr role to the amazing CNN coverage that is coming out of that region. And she is here today with us to discuss in particular her latest investigation into whether Iran link groups are recruiting individuals Sometimes through social media to carry out arson attacks against mostly Jewish communities, across Europe. I think we're also going to have a really interesting and wider ranging conversation about what's going on in the region now and kind of how Iranian intelligence is conducting operations in the midst of this conflict. So Jobana, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the Rest is Glassified It's great to be here with you, David. Joan, maybe first, you know you have spearheaded this really Fascinating investigation into how these Iranian intelligence linked groups are are recruiting people across Europe in an attempt to conduct a range of horrific attacks. Could you just tell us a bit about this investigation, what you found as you dug into this. Well, you know, David, back in March, that's when we started seeing these arson attacks targeting mostly Jewish sites, Jewish organizations, synagogues in different parts of Europe I think the one that grabbed everyone's attention was that massive attack in the predominantly Jewish area of Golders's Green in North London that targeted the volunteer ambulance service they had sold up I mean, those pictures at that time shocked so many in London. That was at the end of March and that was the first attack that took place in the UK And it was claimed by a group than that we'd never heard of before Harakat Ahab Einil Islamia, known as Hyi. And this is a group that emerged just a few days after the war in Iran began and We started looking and it had claimed several attacks in Belgium, the Netherlands, France, and then You had that first attack in the UK and then several others that followed the following week. And we started hearing from different security experts and British authorities as well, that they were investigating and looking into Iran's links to this appeared only really online claims of responsibility propaganda videos would pop up on telegram channels that are run by the Iranian backed Shia groups in Iraq and So you know, all everything was, you know, pointing towards Iran being involved in these attacks. and that this group as some experts were telling us, appears to be a front for the IRGC And that's really how we started digging into what is going on. Who is this group? How are they operating in the UK or Europe And You know, when you look at the suspects, David, in most of these arson attacks Most of them seem to be young teenagers in a lot of these cases. And the question was, how are they being recruited, right? And that's how we started really digging into it How are they being recruited? Be it does seem Um I guess on the face of it that withith some of these suspects, there wouldn't be this ideological impulse that's draggw them into it. But what's As you dug into it, I mean, what is the the motivation or what are the motivations for people getting involved in this So we're still waiting to hear from the you know British authorities and others in Europe about how these young people are being recruited. but they have been looking into whether they're using criminal proxies to hire them? Are they using gangs? This is a tactic that we've seen the Iranian intelligence use in the past in places like Sweden and Germany That is one possibility there The other one is online recruitment. That's how we started really digging into these online channels and how easy it is to recruit young people these days. It literally is one click away U And we heard from one of the suspects in the UK, a seventeen year old who targeted the Kenton synagogue in Northwest London that firebomb attack The seventeen year old in a statement said he had no idea that this was a synagogue He had nothing against the Jewish people. So that, of course, raise questions. what are these kids being told that they're doing? Did he not Google the address like before he did it? they just orr what or I don't know, do you buy it? I I guess this maybe like question, like or do you think that's part of the defense? I mean, it's very difficult to get into because of you know the regulations in the UK and what was said in court But I can tell you this, we went to the synagogue It's hard to miss what it was, right? You can see the Hebrew writing outside. you can see a big menorah as well outside. So it's C clearly a synagogue U And then in the case of another seventeen year old in Belgium We spoke with his lawyer two described, you know the situation with this kid said he was used as cannon fodder They are getting paid to carry out these attacks, not really understanding what it is that they're doing and who they're doing it for And you just look at it, this model It's powerful tool whether it is the Iranians, because we can't confirm that it's the Iranians behind it. But we've heard authorities in the different countries saying that this is really what they're looking into Whever is behind this, it's It's easy It has a devastating impact on the communities that are being targeted when it comes to the Jewish community, especially when we spoken with people And then it also gives them incredible kind of plausible deniability where you have these different layers of who's doing the recruitment, how they're doing the recruitment, who is filming this, who's posting these videos. You've got several layers to whoever is ordering this at the end, right? I wanted to ask you about that because I know you can't confirm it, but Given your own analysis and the security experts you've spoken to, What's the best I guess hypothesis for how this ladders up to to Iran. Like how does it actually connect up into the IRGC, let's say Let's look at this case, right? withith these arson attacks I'm with Harakut Assar Eami, onnline group We've not seen it before. Just popped up days after Iran is under pressure Israel and the US. are attacking Iran, and all of a sudden, you have these attacks taking place. in Western capitals And it looks like quite a powerful, you threat or message because at the beginning, right, up until a stabbing attack that was claimed by Asabi Yamin. no one really got hurt in these arson attacks that were taking place late at night. It was a message and a very powerful one that this warar. It doesn't necessarily have to stay contained in this region. Yeah. you started looking into The group and it's links. And we have reporting that no one else had a source that is close to Qata, Hezbollah the most powerful of Iranian backed Iraqi Shia militias, paramilitary groups A source close to Qatab. Hezbollah told us that The groups's Hericot's Hab, Eliamin, and Qat'ab, Hezbollah are linked S someome members of H R Iraqi And at the same time, as well, we started looking into these different telegram groups where these claims were first appearing two days before the first attack happened This was, I think on the ninth of March A message comes up on one of these groups that is linked to Gutab Hezbollah And it says, Harakat Aabliamin coming soon in Arabic. So you could see all these, you know links to Iran But I think the most significant thing was this recent arrest in the U S or it actually happened outside the U.S of an Iraqi Individual who u According to some media reports, was arrested in Turkey And he was taken to New York and he appeared in court. He was charged And this guy is a leader in Qatab of Hezbollah U. S. prosecutors say Coordinated or inspired, eighteen. attacks. including those attacks that we've been talking about plots as well targeting Jewish targets in the U S in New York, in L.A, and Arizona And this guy You know, there are photos of him will cost him to lay money. from the old days, right? So I mean, you look at all these, know different threads, and I think up until that announcement came from the US recently There was a lot of speculation. And then you see those links, very clear there And according to U. S. prosecutors They say that the way they got him was he was trying to recruit a person he thought was a member of the cartel to carry out attacks in the U. SS and offering to pay them in crypto But that person was an undercover FBI agent interesteresting. And that's how they managed to get him, right? So I think that that made that link between Iraqi militias Iran, the IRGC, of course, as it pretty much backs and you know controls very much the Iraqi paramilitary groups. It was very, very clear when we saw that. You know, it's it's interesting on the on the cartel front. I believe that There was an attempt. I think it might have actually been linked to the attempt to this was twelve, thirteen years ago U to try to kill the Saudi ambassador to the U. S. in Washington. And I believe that the Iranians In that instance, it also attempted to use someone linked to a cartel to either conduct the assassination or to help smuggle something across the border. so that there's definitely There's definitely some connection there. I'm curious in your investigation, you actually interacted to some degree with this group on the telegram channel that they operate. Well Tell us about that and what what that interaction or set of interactions was like So David, when we're trying to figure out, right how are they recruiting them? Is this through the gangs? Is this through these criminal proxies? or, you know, some of the security experts we spoke to said, look, justust check out these different telegram groups out there. It's not simple. They said that this is very much your Russia Wagner sort of model that, you know, it's their playbook, right that's being used by the Iranians now And it sounded pretty crazy, I have to say at the beginning It just looked like too obvious. where they're saying we're recruiting where the Iranian intelligence. Do you want to come and help us? if you do Click startart. And so we, myself and our producer flow We went undercover online. Um is to young London telegram users So Flow starts a conversation with this group, this channel called VIP emmployment And they're offering to hire high paid agents for the Iranian intelligence. And they're open they're open about this. They're open that they represent Iranian intelligence on the teelegram channel. Absolutely. You've got the flag of the Islamic Republic you've got. Yeahah, with the advertising saying that, you know, they're going after you know, they're targeting Zionist entities. They are offering jobs to, you know, people who are willing to help and assist. I mean, it's so open.'s it's out there And so Flow starts a conversation with them. And the first question you get is Where are you which city are you in? how old are you? what are your capabilities, right? So they want to know more about you. I've heard from some experts that this is about building some sort of a database, right? where they've got that, they've got different people around the world. they can use In Flow's case, it was They asked her to Print out two posters. Anti Trump. anti war posters and put them up in different parts of London And they said that they would pay her two dollars in crypto per poster And we're also telling her how to avoid surveillance cameras So was it was it sounded like is this some sort of a U I don't know, like a test, you know, checking to see if she's going to be loyal and do this, an initiation task of sorts on In my case, They went straight into it as me if I had access to any Zionist individuals or assets. And when I asked, what does that mean? they said anyone who's in the IDF Shinbat, Mosad access to any individuals I said, well, are you looking for people just in Israel And they said no We are looking for anyone who can harm Israeli individuals or assets. you know, at that point, we thought we had to end that conversation there because it sounded quite dangerous at that point. but You just see how easy it is to start these conversations. Who's running this? who's behind this? We don't know. but what we found is the fact that this Same channel name, VIP employment appeared in indictments in Israel. last year and that they were also trying to recruit Israelis that same way I relatively deep into this when I was when I was researching by because the whole premise was, you know, looking at this kind of shadow conflict between Israel and Iran. and I was trying to figure out the ways in which the Iranians try or tried to penetrate Israeli society. It's interesting the parallels because in many cases in Israel, the Iranian recruits, again,s most of it's done digitally, similar, right to these cases in Europe. And it's Asks were in some ways quite Quite similar. Could you graffiti You know, buildings. couldould you put up anti government signs, right? protesting that Yahoo and his government. And it kind of ratcheted up in some cases to like actually trying to, you know, murder businessmen, scientists, journalists. I think there was a plot actually which I'm not sure how far it got to try to kill Netanyahu and some people around Tibit government. What feels different here is it's like a geographic extension beyond Israel into Europe, and of course, it's happening during during the war, but do you get the sense it's the same playbook and maybe the same people? or have is there a connection between these two arenas, I guess, from an espionage standpoint Absolutely. I think, I mean, you look at it, it seemed to have worked in Israel where you have a country now that is according to Israeli officials facing itss most serious domestic espionage crisis ever it's unprecedented the number of Israelis who have been you know, allegedly hired by the Iranian intelligence, like you say digitally. And you know, you look at that and you look at what people were being asked to do and how easy it is that I think, why not? Why wouldn't the Iranian regime at a time like this, when it wants to put pressure on other Western countries Wh not try and use that same playbook elsewhere? And that's exactly what security experts we've been talking to for the past few weeks have been telling us, it's exactly the same thing. And they're saying They've also learned that from the Russians. Tell me more about that. It's a Russian playbook that the Iranians have have adopted. That's what they're saying. You know, there was another arson attack in the UK Whether there's any sort of coordination between the Russians and the Iranians, that's unclear But that's a possibility, according to some experts. or it's just You know, just adopting that same tactic and using something that you know, keeps that distance between the state that may be behind this and you know, your low level guns for hire who are carrying out these different attacks. I think what is really concerning right now is where does this go next? In the UK, for example, right You know, I've been for years speaking with Iranian dissidents and journalists You have been targeted Be the Islamic Republic outside the country. And so this is not new. They're not surprised that this is actually happening. You know, There have been plots, whether it's in the U.S or in the UK where I am, where I've been speaking. to people too assassinate and kill. these journalists and dissidents where they would hire criminals to do this. And the concern right now is It could get much worse is what people are saying. And they're really worried that right now, if the Iranians are seeing how effective this method is, and using it to put pressure on these different Western governments Could they take this further? And I think what happened in Golder's Green with a stabbing attack also worried people that you know two members of the Orthodox Jewish community were seriously hurt in that stabbing attack that was claimed by this Iranian linked group I can tell you that it's put people on edge whether it's the Jewish community or Iranian dissidents. We've talked a little bit about it, but I just I wanted to focus on it because I think it's important What do you think the goal is? behind it. L what what's the why for Iran? because To some degree, it feels just an eye for an eye. you know, we're under attack. We're going to post and pit on you. but what do you see as the the strategic motivation for it. You know, if you look at these attacks, when they claim these attacks, what they're saying is, and we're not talking about Iran, right? We're talking about this front experts believe is a front for the IRGC that's claiming these attacks. They're saying, okay, this is revenge for on the killing of Aelahamini. This is, you know for pushing to stop the war. I do think it's a threat to the West to these different countries that have not gotten involved. in this war thing we can bring this war to the heart of Europe if we want to. And it's not necessarily about using It's missiles or weapons. It is that you can weaponize Tenagers, you can use people within these different countries to carry out these attacks. It's not the most sophisticated way, but it's this hybrid warfare, I think is it's described. And it's really, really effective to put pressure on these Western countries to stop the war on Iran. It seems really challenging to counter because Obviously, it doesn't involve an Iranian handler somehow getting himself or herself into the UK to physically meet with people as your interaction with the you know, recruiters suggest The quantity has a quality all its own here in that they can shoot this out, sort of scatter shot and see what sticks It seems cheap. like my sense from your reporting is that They're not paying great money for this. So you know, you're probably finding people who are in some measure of financial straits who are keen to do it for not much money What are you hearing from security experts on like how you would actually Stop this. How do you counter it It's very, very difficult. I think the British have come out saying, you know, that they're basically going to down really hard and anyone who's involved in these attacks. And you know, almost every one of those attacks that happen in the UK they've arrested suspects and they're fast tracking a lot of these cases and they're moving them fast. They want to deter people from joining them, saying, look, you know, if you think this is an easy way of making quick money. because You're disposable for them. They'll use you and they'll drop you. And this has been the message from the British authorities. I think at this point, That's their main tactic of showing how these kids are left on their own It's very, very challenging. I mean, MI five last year said that they had disrupted precedented number of Iranian plots targeting the UK, moreore than twenty plots. And You know, I've attended some of the court hearings of some of the people who were detained and you know arrested before this spate of the antiemitic arson attacks Several people were arrested in the UK for spying on Jewish and Israeli sites And it was very interesting without naming those individuals, without going into details of the case because you know of the restrictions when it comes to these hearings. I can tell you in the case of one of them, it was very, very interesting, David. It was a couple of guys who were just going around and taking photos and logging information about these different targets right in the UK in London And according to prosecutors, they alleged that this was being sent back to someone in Iran It's that easy, right? But we don't know. Is this someone who's being paid? Is this someone whose family is under pressure back in Iran So it's going to be very, very difficult. It's a new kind of challenge that security services in these different countries now are going to have to face It is a war that is coming to these Western nations, right? It's not a war that is contained in this region And I think controlling it, especially when you see how easy it is. to recruit peopleeople online, especially when you look at the state of the economy right now. It is going to be very, very challenging But you know, I guess also if you just if you look at the way that the Iranians have done this in Israel up to this point There is this kind of escalation ladder, not in each individual case, but kind of more broadly where it seems as they as they do find people who are willing to do more and more kind of you know, extreme things Um you end up with, you know, more fire bombings. I think in a couple of cases in Israel The Iranians actually tried to get people to start forest fires. You know, mass like to do kind of mass vandalism I'm curious toanna about It's something that's fascinated me in looking at this conflict because The Israelis and their ability to penetrate Iran are so unbelievably effective that when you look at the stuff we've been talking about, The Iranian response in many ways is very crude And I'm curious if you could this is zooming out a bit, but Wh is the why is the intelligence conflict between these two countries so lopsided? Because It does, it just, it feels the level of sophistication, the scale, the scope the level of success, like the Israelis are way ahead. And it doesn't mean that stuff youre reported on, it obviously has a cost and it's tremendously scary, but the Iranians are behind. I'm just curious why you think Structurally, that's been the case Look, it's crude, but it's effective, right? You know, when you look at what has been happening in Israel and this, you know, unprecedented domestic espionage crisis that they're they're going through. And you know, what you were mentioning Yes, sometimes people are just hred to burn posters and do these sort of things that are not necessarily breaking any laws But taking pictures of sensitive sites, they have also you targeting certain individuals Some of these sites acccording to prosecutors, know that they took pictures of and provided, sent them to the Iranians, according to these indictments, have been targeted by the Iranians During the June War last year, the twelve day War And again during the war this year I think the Israelis We have the most sophisticated, most advanced intelligence services not just in this region and beyond. And I think over the past few years even when people you know, already knew that They would still get shocked every time you would see the level of targeting that was taking place inside Iran And for the Iranians themself, I mean, for the regime, that also must have been S just the impact that had on the morale, on the confidence within the regime Um, you know, targeting of the different figures as well as what we saw happen in Lebanon as well, that level of infiltration we saw from the Israelis But I think what we're going to see is the Iranians using more and more of these sort of You know, what you're describing as these crude tactics, but they do have an impact, a psychological impact as well on a population After our investigation, David The channel that was recruiting People on Telegram It was taken down within a few hours of a report coming out, it was taken down And the following day Many in Israel text messages. We're saying that it was the Iranian intelligence and calling on people to contact Iranian missions in different countries to help them and it's about, you know It's about their future, they said. So you can imagine the kind of psychological impact that has. Sometimes it doesn't take much, whether it's this online recruitment, sending these text messages, the hacking Iranian hacking groups and what they have been able to obtain from inside Israel, from Israeli officials as well over the past year or so It's definitely had an impact, you know, speaking with Israelis They're really good at these sort of p ops, right? And they have this impact on a society really I mean, so much so that the Israelis, I think it was their sort of public diplomacy initiative had partnered with Shin Bet, the internal Security serervice to run a campaign that was I think it was titled like Ey money Heavy Price to try to getet the word out about this because it had gotten so prevalent. I mean, because obviously the number of indictments, I think there have been sixty or so in Israel is the tip of the iceberg, right for the number of people in the society who have been contacted and maybe in some cases convinced to do some amount of work for Iranian intelligence in a witting or unwitting fashion. We used to talk at the agency about high CI counter intelligence threat environments and it was kind of When I was at, it was like a very geographically bounded conversation. and It's totally changed now because You don't have to go to Iran. You don't have to go to a place where you have a lot of Iranian intelligence officers or Iranian militia or anything like that to be contacted by the Iranian intelligence services, right? You just you could be sitting in London on telegram and you can be recruited to do things that are very useful for them. and you know, you're the one we're saying that bears the entire burden and the cost of this, like They don't care. If you get caught, you know, they'll just move on to the next person. So it is very e but efficient, I guess. In many cases, people don't necessarily know in some of these cases, that it is the Iranian intelligence doing this, right? It can either be people being recruited you openly by these groups calling themselves Iranian intelligence or at the same time, you know, you're just looking for quick money go firebomb a synagogue in London and we'll pay you this much, right you know, this building, this address and It's just, I mean, you look at it, I think this is in new reality that we're going to be facing This is a whole different Sweat level I think is going to be very, very challenging for governments around the world in security services to try and contain and control No absolutely. And Anduban I wanted to ask because I know you're in Aman, Jordan right now What's the view from Iman when we look at Iran? And it doesn't necessarily have to be connected to this intelligence story we've been talking about, but just even more broadly as we look at The conflict in Iran and the possibility that it could restart? I mean, how What is your sense of how Jordan, the government, the people are responding to the ongoing tension of the region? Yeah I've been here for a couple of days, David, and people just describing what it was like during you know the height of the war. Jordan was never really in the headlines, right? Everyone was very much focused on what was going on in the Gulf, right? those images that really shocked the world, you know, Dubai and Doha and Abu Dhabi and Jordan was kind of forgotten, right? And I do think that you know, they kind of handled it well, they were okay for the most part. You didn't have really many casualties here. There was a lot of these missiles targeting and drones targeting Israel were being intercepted in Jordanian airspace But the impact that had on this country It's devastating on so many levels, right? The state of the economy in the country And that is of course a security concern as well And then I think what you have is the official government position and the population's position So during The war Jordan, working with the US and other allies, was intercepting these drones and missiles, targeting Israel and targeting Jordan targeting U.S. bases in this country So many Jordanians We're against that They saw this as their country comoming to the aid of Israel. You have officials coming out and saying, look We're doing this because we are a sovereign nation. We need to be protecting our airspace. We need to be protecting our people. We need to intercept these Iranian attacks But people saw it as Jordan defending Israel. and that created so much tension in this country. And I think this is a byproduct of What has happened in this region since october seventh and the war in Gaza where You have a lot of people here who were happy to see Israel being targeted by Iran And I was just having these conversations with people yesterday where people are telling me, you don't understand. Gaza changed everything for us And it's not just in Jordan. People are more open about this and they say this you know, more freely here, but in a lot of countries, right to our conversation from earlier Yes, a lot of these young people who are being recruited by the Iranian regime potentially and you know other bad actors out there are not necessarily ideologues, right? These are young kids who are looking for quick money You' looking at a situation now where you have a generation. that is so angry at what has happened over the past few years about watching, you know, those images out of Gaza of children killed and you know, everything that has happened there The level of anti Western sentiments I am seeing in my region is like nothing I'd seen before. not even, you know, the leader. to the Iraq warar and the Iraq War, where you saw the recruitment of so many young people in this region to fight with al Qaeda We are talking about a level right now of anti Western sentiment that I have not seen even that do you think we can do. What do you think? I mean, what What are Western security experts saying might be done to pair could if we could use that word or anything close to it our relations in you know in the Arab world or in the region? Or is it just is it so Lake Turg our relationship with Israel that it's not There's nothing to be done. What are you hearing I mean, it is it's such a difficult question to answer, right? I mean, it's it's it's something thats You know, I'm sure it's keeping Western intelligence agencies very busy right now I do think it's going to be very, very challenging and it does you know, as someone from this region, not only as a journalist that covers this region, I do worry about where this is all headed U I do worry about how polarized our world is right now And and how people, you know, I think for a lot. of young people in this country and elsewhere in the region you know, they see, you know the U S Israel you know, Western countries They see this as attacking everyone This is not just about the U. S. and Israel going after the Iranian regime and its nuclear program They see this as and I hear this a lot, right? This is about going after another Muslim nation. This is about destroying another powerful nation. And this is how, you know they're viewing it through that lens. And I really don't know. How do you begin to change that, especially after what has happened over the past couple of years and how angry people are with the U. S. and its support for Israel Yeah. no, I think I think u spad this because that's sentiment, my sense is that It's either not understood here or it's wildly sort of underestimated Um because I think there has been a dramatic shift. and unless you're like most Americans are not spending a lot of time in the region, not spending a lot of time thinking about the region unless we happen to be. in one of our various conflicts There's there's not a sense. for just how kind of deep that animosity has become in some quarters of the region. So I think that's It's really important And it's not just, in the past, you would hear it from a lot of people who you would consider to have extreme views I hear this from a lot of educated, middle class, Christian Arabs and others. I mean, this is what worries me right now is how widespread sentiment is Jumana Thank you so much for joining us to talk about the region broadly this amazing report that you and the team at SN did on Iranian Linkx groups recruiting in Europe and targeting Jewish communities I think it's incredibly important reporting that you guys are doing. and thank you for joining us on the ground for Ivan. It's really been a pleasure Thank you for having me.