Final Announcements and Podcast Wrap Up

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now fan mail is one of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way. And the understanding that nothing may come back. Certainly in our day, you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. And maybe three months later a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly proformer, you know that you know Howard's never really looked at. Steve Martin used to have a performer sort of thing, which we just leave blanks, like insert, like small detail to make a joke about how completely impersonal his personal reply to you was. And it's just like a standard thing. Ipersonal is interest, and that's why'reking this, because of Octopus Energy, you always can reply to their emails. and not only can you reply to them, they will go to the same small group of people who always deal with you. That's like unbelievable. It's almost unprecedented that a company you're giving your money to will actually respond to are contactable. Yeah in some way On any journey using Uber, it helps to know you're getting into the right car. Pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride. Before the trip begins, your app gives you a unique pin. Just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start. Hey, what's your pin Two, five, three, eight That way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip, and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride with pIin verification from Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app This episode brought to you by Google Chrome You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a fifty page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online makes sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check Responssees set upp required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest of Entertainment with me, Marina Hi. And me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everybody. Hi Marina. How are you, Richard? I'm very, very well. Thank you. I've been away for a week, which is absolutely lovely, but I'm delighted to be back. Yes to talk about show business and billionaires. What are the billionaires up to? What are the billionaires up to? Because we are going to be talking about Artificial, which is almost completed film about Sam Altman that Amazon have just dropped for reasons. They'll have a good reason. They'll have a really great reason for doing that. We're also going to talk about we're about to have a new prime Mister, as you know. Are we? We're recording this on Monday. Yes, I believe that today we will see Great. Drama addicted, drama afflicted, British public will see that lecton for the seventh time in a decade. But please don't panic because we are not going to talk about politics. We're going to ask the question, Is Andy Burnham cool? But we're also going to say, can any politician ever be cool? Yeah. But V his entertainment choices. We are not going to be talking about his monetary policies. We're going to be talking about his favourite albums. help. Right. And we're also talking about Quentin Tarantino said there've been no good films recently. He said there've been no good films since the pandemic which sparked a bunch of lists and things saying that they happen. What about these ones? And we're going to talk a little bit about his comments, but a lot about the phenomenon of those lists, those cultural lists that you probably see a lot more than you ever used to. And I like the fact that you're saying that like it's a bad thing, so I should just said I would also give everyone my top three films since the pandemic to do this. o, I will do this too. Yes. So Altman Amazon, a lot going on. Okay, let' we have to do a little bit. whoo is Sam Maltman? Sam Maltan Who is Sam Maltman? Exactly. He has the cold dead eyes of the boyfriend who joins in the search for the missing girlfriend, in my view. But he is also He's like a dislikeable Elon Musk He is, I think potentially the worst, which really matters in that particular group. But he's the open AI sort of chief executive. Open AI, obviously their most famous product is Chat GPT, but they have various other systems. Remember, it started openpen AI as a not for profit, sort of weirdly idealistic altruistic enterprise And in twenty sixteen, Sam Wortman was saying, anyone familiar with the nineteen thirties, it's absolutely chilling watching Trump in action. Anyway. byy the time of the second inauguration, there he was in oligarchs row. Oen A ey is no longer a nonprofit. It is a rapacious capitalist entity. They've accepted a number of defense contracts that even anthropics said, we can't in all conscience do this Even anthropic. Yeah. anyyway, so he is that's who Sam Waltman is. and the film is called Artificial And it is the story of these are often quite helpful if you're trying to dramatize anything. There's five days in twenty twenty three where Sam Waltman is ousted at openpen AI, and then he comes back Spoiler or. Spoiler orert. If you're catching up with the last few years on Boxet, I'm sorry. This film is directed by Luca Guardanino who did callall me by your name, Challengers. he's absolutely the real deal. Yeah. more of a real deal of a director. moment. Yeah. It's written by Simon Rich, who's a formmerrester Al Rid, who's done various other things. It stars Andrew Garfield as Sam Wtman. also I mean, the cast is a joke. It's not it's also Monica Barbara, Yuri Borris of and Anora.or. Ike Barron Holtz has Musk, which is mean I have to see this. Ike Barron Holtz, if people didn't know him, he's the guy who plays South Sapesteine on studio. So' one of love him. And he doesn't look unadjacent to Elon Musk. I'd never noticed it before for the second time I can't wa to see it again. Jason to Schwortsman, Cooper Hoffman, Sosha Mammet, Chris O'Dowd, Mark Ryance sort of low and strong this thing. And it's nearly finished. It's at a sort of screening stage. Long and strong. that's a cast list. Its yeah, yes, like in a bridgehand, but it's Yeah like the man' City bench. Yeah. ye. In terms of what's happened, Amazon has dropped it. Amazon making this film.', you know, I don't know what it's cost something like forty million. ninety million, they reckon And the decision has supposedly been made to drop it. They've said It might be better suited to another distributor. And so Jeff Bezos, who of course, is the ultimate boss of Amazon, has a friendship with Sam Altman. and Sam Altman was that the Bezos Sentchz. wedding. Is that correct? Yeah, which we were not invited to. So they are friends. So hah, it's almost like something else is going his decision's been made by Mike Hopkins, we should say.'s he's the head of Prime videoo and Amazon MGM stududios. So can I ask you question that we're all asking Why would you finance a forty million dollars Luca Guardanino movie. Why would you make the whole thing, why would you get that ste of cast together? And then why would you just before it's about to start you know playing at festivals and stuff Why would you Suddenly drop it. What I mean, I suppose it comes down to who you want to believe. They think it would be better suited to another distributor. But what we have to say is that Amazon has a deepening relationship with openpen AI a few months ago, they did a huge deal with openpen AI. All the deals with openpen AI involve people giving open AI billions. It's like one of the weirdest things about modern life. Amazon is basically giving a fifty billion investment to openpen AI. but last year they did a I think sort of thirty or forty thirty eight billion cloud partnership. And so yes, I mean, it doesn't look great, does it? that they've got this far. The story is They I' see. missioned this movie. they'd seen the movie and word from inside the Amazon campus. was it was actually it was a lot darker than we were imagining And certainly the people who've seen it, they say the portrayal of Sam Otman and Elon Musk are particularly I mean, brilliant.'s what people are saying, but but particularly bleak Dark And so Amazon saw this and decided that maybe because of course forty millionion is the budget of the movie. So you're now at the stage where Amazon go, well, we're going to put this on our platform. We're going to spend the marketing money, which could be another forty million. So you're at that place They're going to put it in cinemas first because this is clearly this would have awards chances as we know. this is a sort of but But if you're Amazon at that moment, this is a moment where if you can press the Jetison button you are not paying for the second half of that. and more importantly, if you have relationships with open AI, which clear they do, you are not having to use your platform to constantly promote this thing and you're not having to have Amazon branding behind Ike Baron Holson and Andrew Garfield sitting there talking about the movie. Some people have seen an early draft of this, so we should say a little bit more, It's obviously not a sort of hallmark hymn to Sas Hortman and people who've read early drafts, which will have changed But as you say, if it's got darker, it apparently portrays him Sam Mtman as sort of intensely manipulative a schema, a sort of power hoolder, a monomaniac, etceta. And there are obviously there are lots of walk ons for other people, even including people like the Microsoft CEO Satuladeella. And I mean there's just no way this can look good at all And we have to think of it in the context of everything that has been happening recently. First of all, you know you think about that movie the Apprentice that starred Sebastian Stan as a sort of young Donald Trump and Jeremy Strong. going to be one hundred percent in awards conversation, but it really struggled to get distribution really struggled. Even though it was quite clearly going to pick up some awards and it was nominated and it was going to be in all sorts of awards conversation. The problem is not with the creators. And a lot of people may think these guys define our age. These guys are the extraordinarily powerful The problem about them being tackled a subject is absolutely not with writers and creatives. personally know a number of people who have projects about these guys in development And there are film and TV projects about the attch barons in development, all of them. You know we do know that the social reckoning is coming out which is the follow up to social network what Zuckerberg did next? Yeah Yes. And the trailer' out and that's coming out in October Aaron Hawkin, who has written and directed this time as well, said that know, we haven't heard from anyone except their lawyers saying, just be careful. That's from M's lawyers But we're yet to see any films about Peter Tale in production. evenven you know, he's extremely litigious, but he actually does literally believe in the Antichrist, so for me, you know, seems like worth a shot at covering him creatively. This is a man whose companies are being knit tighter and tighter into the appparatus of a number of supposedly democratic states. I know so many people who've had projects, and it was really interesting after the election of Trump in twenty twenty four, a lot of those people, a lot of those companies, the big companies those people who had those projects and said, don't worry, we're still going to carry on with them. I haven't seen any of those projects come out. They are not even green lit. I don't as far you know, they're not. And a lot of those people The studios are going to and these are not small spec script writers. These are people with big overall deals who are tackling the big subjects, the big people of the age. People are saying to them, haveave you got anything that isn't about Elon Musk or or whoever is. Have you got a buddy cop. Have you got something different And it's really interesting. And we've seen a few things. we saw Jesse Armstrong's mountain head, but that wasn't about specifically you know was ros. They did it very quickly to be eligible for M consideration of various things like that. But it's hard to say now that many of these things are coming to light. And here is one that has got all the way to that stage with an unbelievable, impeccable sort of creative team behind it And they're just ting it out. Can I present a counterpoint? Yeah, a very brief counterpoint, which is We didn't used to do these fast turnaround movies about people who were still if Quite so much didn't used to be a thing. There is an interesting moral place where writers are if they are writing about these people and these people who are heavily layered as well And I don't think it's shocking that there aren't ten films a year about Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. I mean I understand why writers want to write about them because they're unbelievable bogeymen and they are doing something extraordinary that's never been done before and they are doing it in plain sight. and yet a lot of what they're doing doesn't seem to have crossed over. But It is an unusual situation to be in. And if I were a business person, which you know I am Not. I am, And I was you're not terrible at it. And I was am you know I think it comes down to this If Amazon had buried this be. A shock If Amazon had funded this and buried it and said No, what it's All movie and we're not going to show it, but no one else can as well. That would be one thing for them to say, you know, they're holding their hands up and going, We have a deep personal relationship with the person this film is about. They're not saying that th. Oh no, but of course, I mean, But it's quite obvious.'t how history judges you. You just paid seventy five million for an abysmal to Brett Ratner and Melania for an abysmal documentary about her. But you can't put this out. Well, I mean, I'm sorry. What do you think history iss going to say about you, because I would be too embarrassed to do it. Wellcause they're not really a movie company. I mean, seventy five million, forty million, I mean it's zero them essentially It's James Wandnder movie franchise because they have that. I think they are. company That's the interesting one. It'd be interesting to see who the Baddy is and the you James Wond mov telly who won't be. He will not be Chinese or North Korean. He will not be because they are the executives are the craven people. It is not the creatives. But it is interesting that they are allowing the filmmakers to take it elsewhere and it's had a huge amount of publicity, a lot more publicity than it would have done if they had shown it anyway. And you know, it's been shown across LA for the last week or so It's interesting who is passing on it Be a lot of people have passed on it. if you believe the trade papers A twenty four have passed on it. Netflix have passed on it So Whatever Amazon is worried about showing Sam Mtman in that light or Elan Musk in that light Other people seem to be as well because people are saying it's not a bad movie Almost everybody is passing on it. and that's almost more depressing. Yeah. I think I think what's to find another positive, these movies can be very influential. If you look at that portrait of Mark Zuckerberg from the social network, the first film It was just incredibly influential as to how people saw him for from then on, you know, and he would dispute the account that actually the way it was created was born out of a night of incredible misogyny and raiting women and all of this sort of stuff That' stark. If anything is sort of miracly shaded and something even darker now which I'm sure we'll see in the second film. But I think these films are influential. I think it's more depressing that they're doing this publicly. I really do. I think that they become shameless. This is just the way things are now. We've seen all sorts of cvings to the Trump administration, and we're seeing just a much more a massively increased tension between media companies and the tech firms and editorial independence everywhere from news to whatever. it will be interesting to see other test cases like You know, what if someone who's, you know, traditionally regarded as brave or whatever someone at HBO comes up with something and it will be a test for Kasey Bloyys at the top of HBO to say, o we're going to do this. And you know, How will we Ellisons feel about this or that? And this will be a test of the new form of ownership of Oers by Paramat guidance or whatever and by the Ellisons will Will they cave? will they do it? It's very difficult. People are cving to tech because tech is becoming increasingly woven into all of their systems, and they can't really exist without it. And they're all doing deals with open AI and We talked about TBPN, which you know is a podcast I like, but it's basically been bought now by openpen AI as a form of PR ar for themselves And I think that editorial independence is being eroded all the time. and this is for me The worst that I almost prefer it if they tryed to do it you shamefully in the background, just saying openly that they're not doing it It sounds a chill win for me What happens though, in this situation if you are not able to go through these big main channels to make movies like this or to make art like this about the people who are running the world? onene would hope that there's enough counter cultural money or enough money that has not been tied up by open AI or people who are bending the knee to Trump. One would hope there's enough of that money and culture. I mean, what counterculture? I don't see that there is one. Yeah, but then there never is one until the culture changes. That's the point. I don't think there is a financial counterculture that it's very, very hard. Why was it so hard for the apprentice to find a distributor in? I mean, it was an absolute uphill struggle for that And it wasn't particularly expensive. It was very good And they just couldn't seem to find anyone to. But even as you're saying that, all I'm thinking is well, there's a gap in the market And there's a very lucrative gap in the market.'s all that's all I think You might not be doing these through the legacy studios where something is costing you seventy five million But you can certainly, you know, if, you know, Bloomhouse wanted to do a horror They should do a they should do attack attack barantora. But you know, that feels to like such an easy thing to do. I think when everything gets so calcified when a culture gets so calcified and so in the hands of a very few people, which is exactly what's happened now. That's when The fight backack begins. I always think that because creative people never change how they're creative. Creative people never change the sort of stories that they want to tell It's just that at the moment someone's not going to give them forty million dollars plus another forty million dollars in marketing to tell that story. So creativity is still creativity. It will find a way through the dam. you know, the water finds its way through the concrete. And maybe but It I just think that there's always a reaction to these things. There is always a reaction, but you often have to live through a period of censorship or you know self censorship first And I worry that we're sort of living through that period. in fact, we clearly are. it's just a different calculus when people are talking about, oh, we can't make this project because of our cloud partnerships. I mean, this is something we haven't been thinking about before. But you can see it across all sorts of things. you can see it across late night, across news, across now in cinema. Lots of people are just stepping back and saying, well, we won't do that, we'll do Because these firms have become so completely powerful within their own business. Yeah, notot just like they're outside people in the culture that we might not want to offend. They're so knit in to the delivery of your services that you don't really have another choice. Yeah. or they feel they don't. And bullying works. Yeah. And not even bullying works sometimes they're complicit. know scary a bit of it. but I do I'm an appalling optimist and I have to apologise for almost weekly on this podcast, sorry, everybody. But you know, I do think that that kind of lost swish of the dinosaur's tail sometimes is a real fillip for creativity and for where we go next in culture. And we live these absurd sort of end times that we live in as regards money and tech and art. I just don't think it can Last, I think something else comes out of it that's interesting and intriguing. and if I was a twenty one year old home at the moment who's a filmmaker or a writer or a creator of any sort. Well I know what I'd be thinking and I know what I'd be creating. and that's the next generation of art that we're going to get. I agree. And I do think that there are exciting things or we can see already happening that to co op the language of these tech firms' disruptive Yeah there's some really interesting disruptive creators in all sorts of different parts of the creative industries But I'm not sure that they're politically disruptive so far Maybe that will come, but I think they're creatively disruptive and I think they're doing all sorts of other interesting things. but I don't see it coming in a sort of political way. And I think that that is But hopefully that will follow. But we are one hundred percent definitively in an era where American popular culture is under the yoke of about five people, all of whom are billionaires and all of whom have quite thin skins. Yes. And it's interesting that so many people are moving away, we should do something on China maxing in a future episode because of c the cultural pull is moving past even somewhere like Seoul and it's just moving east. And I think that lots of interesting stuff or just compelling stuff for young people, Gen Z, but particularly Jen A is now coming from China. And I think that of course because because of all this nonsense. Where of course they have no censorship So yeah you know, you're right, there's plenty of course Oh the world. It never gets any better really, does it? Well, you know, Yeah I suppose medical science advances. Yes. That's good. You know, and AR will be very helpful in that, I'm sure Should we go for a break? Let's. And after that we're going to be talking about whether Andy Burnham is cool or not. We're not going to be talking politics, we're going to be talking music This episode is brought to you by the Lloyds five K house deposit. Lloyds are offering a five K house deposit, which was last seen in nineteen ninety six. What are your entertainment memories of the nineteen nineties? I feel guilty talking about the nineteen nineties because you look back and it was such a golden era. We'd never had it so good. We didn't even realise because we were young and we just thought we were entitled to it. We absolutely took it for granted pop was absolutely in its pump, Oasis plane to a quarter of a million people you had blice Gls. I'm so sorry.ice girls, amazing movies at the cinema, train spotting. I mean it felt a time of absolute optimism. but at the time, you just assumed that was the way that A very wious type of optimism Yeah. And part of the optimism of course, is that mortgages were more affordable. and that is what Lloyds is dealing with right now Last seen in nineteen ninety six, Lloyds are now offering five K deposit mortgages to first time buyers. Search five K first time buuyer. nineteen ninety six average first time buyer deposits based on ONS data, sububject to status, your home may be repossessed if you don't keep up repayments. Conditions apply Study and play! come together on a Windows eleven PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows eleven PC's. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft three hundred sixty five premium and a year of Xbox GamePass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller Learn more at windows. com slash student offffer. La suppupplies last ends june thirtieth, terms at aka. ms slash collllege PC Your call has been forwarded to voicemail This is Zoe Deutsch and Nick Robinson. A brand new movie voicemails for Isabel is all about those little moments that feel like the universe is looking out. Feeling homesick Then your sister calls. Hearing that perfect song exactly when you need it. Sometimes life rigs things in our favor, like learning about your new favorite ROMC voicemails for Isabel Now playing only on Netflix Welcome back, everybody. Nowen we move on from that fraught first half to ask a simple question, which is are we about to have our first indie Kid prrime Minister? Marina for our overseas Listeners interesteresting developments in British politics at the moment. Interesting and strangely familiar. Yes. We're going to have a new prime Minister. Yeah. We're recording this on Monday, but as events advance in due course, we will have a new Prime mininister. and unless something absolutely claticalismic happens, that prrime Minister will probably be Andy Berham. It will. We're not going to talk about politics, donon't worry about that. I have a very specific thing that I wanted to Explore which is is Andy Burnham cool I know you don't think anyone's cool. So actually what it's not true. You know that's true. Are we about to have our first indie Kid prrime minister? We've had sorts of prime ministers on desesert Island D before and political leaders. Cameron went on it. He chose a Smith song He chose this charming man. he chose a killer song. He chose a radio head song fake pllastic trees He's not he wasn't an indie kid. I mean, those are the ones you would choose if you know, you sat around with an advisor and decided which songs to choo. He's talked about loving Eaton rifles. by the jam as well, which must I mean, imagine being Paul Weller and hearing that. Boris Johnson went on he justed somebody who saw David Cameram at a party once like sort of po going going to tank or Mallis. Oh really? Sorry, you're just not allowed to do this. I know.'s so ye. You're banned off this Kemmy Badot recently went on Island. She You had a couple songs from Hamilton that said Don't Stop Till to G get Enough by Michael Jackson. Weir had sunscreen by Basleerman as well as one of her desert anentists. But anyway Andy Burnham. Andy Burnham makes quite a lot of this kind of I'm just, you know, this indndie kid from the North Is he posing or is that for real? Now my evidence is He did a wonderful piece. I don't know if people know the quQietus. The very fact that he did this piece with the quQietas at all tells us already he's got bonaes. If you are looking for something to subscribe to, the quuietus is very, very, very good on music and culture and it just introduces you new things all the time. They did curated playlists. Anyway, they do they do a a feature called Baker's Dozen where people choose their favourite thirteen albums. All the evidence were going on. for Andy Burnham is his thirteen favorite albums and the story he tells on each one. Shall we go through a few of them and see if Andy Burnham is actually cool or not. I've made my mind up already. but we'll go through them. He was born in the same year as me Andy Berham and the further you go down this list, the more obvious that becomes. He's got Beatles in there. He's got Smith's Hatford of Hollow Yeah, which was the year zero of turning from a kid who likes culture club into indndie kid. That's that's the album that did it for everyone. Andy Burnham's got that on his list. But then he goes for this is where I start thinking, o this guy's for real You go to Rum Sodomy and the Lash by the Pogues, their second album, which I think is one of the greatest albums. ever written. He says he wants sick bed of Cul Cullen play Yeah playayed his funal. Prayed at his funeral, which is I'd say it's a bold choice, Andy, but you absolutely go for it. But the definitive thing with Rumsotomy and the Lash by the Pogues is if you are Andy Burnham's spepecial advisor, you wouldn't say, o, and by the way, at number three Id put Rumsotomy in the lash by the Pogues. No, I believe all of this. There's no You can't talk about them in the way that he has talked about them without absolutely It being completely real and authentic. We're going to come later to whether even things that are authentic can seem inauthentic in the world of politics, but I one hundred percent believe all of this. He goes for the Stone Roses. I mean, Andy Burnne could not be more northwest if he tried. he's from Liverpool was an MP and Lee was mayor of Manchester veryy cleverly, almost unique manages to have a foot in both of those campses. started this kind of overarching northern identity that I managed to bring them together. Yeah Yeah. Imagine if you've done that for a southern identity. Imagine how much the country would absolutely hate him. They go Oh this guy goes, you know what? I'm a little bit guilford and a little bit Goddlming. That's me and that's Andy So when he talks about the Stone Roses, which is his fourth album, which again, you can't be an indic kid any wayay whatsoever and not have the first Stone Roses album on there, but he talks about how he used to go to the Hacieanda. Yeah. But on the Thursday, not the Friday. The Thursday, which was student night. Saturday was like the like like the big rave night and he says, you know, I was very much Thursday night. I was a lager guy. They said didnt take ecstasy He said, you know, I genuinely I'm not being a politician, I genuinely didn't. We are about to get our first indndicid prime Minister, I think. It'll be a while before we get our first R prrime Minister But that' be next But he said he said I think you'll find David Camer went to a few parties Yeah, listen I wouldn't dignify him with Rave There's no more indy statement than I saw the fall at the Hassieander. It's absolutely impossible. He also said, and don I don't think There's two words in this together I don't think a single British prrime Minister has ever said before. And that is, he said, talking about the Hacieander. There would be a few members of inspiral carpets hanging around I don't think anyone who's ever been British Prime Mister has ever referenced spiral carpets? Therefore He also talks about meeting Tony Wilson when he was up in Manchester and how they developed quite a close relationship. and Tony Wilson before Andy Bernam was the King of the North was probably the King of the North. And I saw Andy Berhard described the other day as Harold Wilson meets Tony Wilson whichich I thought was very nice. He then goes, I mean here's where we know for a fact that we are going to have an indndieid Prime Minister. His next album is George Best by the Wedding Present And again To find out the age of a tree, you cut it down and count the rings. If you want to know the age of a certain man or woman in this country and they say one of my favourite albums is wedding present is George Best by wedding present. Then they were born in nineteen seventy. You can almost almost the month work it out. By the way, a great album. He then goes on to talkking of great albums, The Lars by the Lars Liverpool band but to be someone who recognises that Lars aren't just there she goes and to recognize they release one of the great debut albums in the history of music We should do like a bonus on the laars because they were amazing. Yeah Biddy Bragg? Yes. That's an interesting William Blke that at the Aveny's gone for and he says Ufield is his favorite song. because I mean, he's very polarizing. And again, if you were Andy Burnham's Spad. you be say, Ohh, I don't know, are you sure about Billy Bragged But one of our most tender and beautiful songwriters. Yeah, I think. You might have thought Chuck one out for the Corbn Corbnight. Yeah, exactly. Radiohead, OK computer. I li all the way through the intery in the quietest is so good because he's saying, yeah, I saw radio headad at Glasamury he said it's just after I lost the leadership election to Corbyn And you realize that this music, which isort sort of the music of your kind of teen years or twenties or, you know it see these peopleeople've been in the middle of like the hugest stories in British politics are sitting there listening to karma police. And you're thinking, wow, I mean those lyrics must hit a bit different if you're trying to run the country Strokes he goes for, there's a few more modern things, Big Thief Capacity, which is an amazing album's newew orrder. The one I really, really loved is the Cortinas and Falcon say, the Cortinas are a huge, you know, one of those bands that the North absolutely they like the gods of the North. And he said when he was running for Manchester Mayor, him and Steve Rotherham, who was mayor of Liverpool, they went see the Cortinas. And he said there's this song where he says, the lyr. I'm only a paper boy from the Northwest, but I can scrub up where they' my Sunday bestest. And he said, that really felt like me because I was, you know, that sounds like me. so we were sort of buildting this song out and it really made us feel proud to be from the North. And you know this is great guitar music. but that is from a song interviews about two years ago and that's from a song called Take Over the World And Andy Burnham said, I love that song and it brings back memories, but sadly, I didn't go on to take over the world. Well, look at you now, Andy. Well, this's a suggestion that you can ever be cool as a politician. Yes an impsib I think it is You can be charismatic and that really matters and you know, someone like David Ransseomman has written really interesting on politicians who are sort of required to be a form of celebrity, but also still be trustworthy. It's interesting actually when I was talking to James Canigastori about people celebrities becoming politicians, what we talked about, one of the things we talked about is that because we cycle through these people so quickly as politicians, celebrities are these kind of great constants in public life. And so in many ways, they are seen as more trustworthy than politicians. And what Andy Burnham has actually genuinely tried to do is create an out outsider status for himself, which by the way, I think cool almost it's very, very hard to be cool when you are the figurehead of an assistant. For sure know being an outsider is cool. It involves not having to compromise and to be able to dream impossible dreams whereereas politics, I suppose is the art of the possible and all about compromising. So you can't really canot be cool. but one thing you can do, and again, you talk to James about it One thing that is absolutely key is can you be authentic? And I thought the interesting thing going through this list is so Andy has this kind of image of himself as you know, oh, I'm just a normal guy and I drink laga and this is the sort of music I like This interview in the quQietas and this list in the quQietus Absolutely one hundred percent screams to me authenticity. I completely agree with you. I think it's interesting and actually it's quite a niche thing and we're talking about it because we love all those things, we love music and things like that The more mainstream things that politicians will try and and even authentically attach themselves to, I mean if you look at Kir Stama, he plays fiveiv side football once a week, he really loves football. He is a completely authentic football fan. He cannot basically hardly even talk about football because it's footballbody cares about because we're the middle of the Wor Cu is really interesting. Kass Horvitz, who is a sort of oms Gur He was a Coms guru for Rishy Sunak. He did a post on LinkedIn just before the Wldcot started saying pololiticians, please just don't post about the World Cut this summer, saying and he said that talking about football has become the ultimate high stakes authenticity trap because the public immediately assume it's a calculated focus group play to neutralise your elite narrative and prove that you are a regular person. And it's really Honestly, anytim, even politicians who absolutely love football, you'll it used to happen much more, just try and stay away from it to some degree because it just always looks like bandwagoning. And strange as it may seem, we literally do not know need to know or certainly don't care what cabinet minister thinks about football. I noticed Farage was doing he is by the way, I want to talk about him actually because I think he's in terms his cultural hinterland, I believe It is I mean, I talk about the tech ye that I've talk about the tech Baronons not having one. He has absolutely nothing. I once interviewed him and just honestly for something I think I've talked about this in the podcast before, but I'm going to mention it again because I think it is so weird. I said to him What's favorite you know,'s favorite fil And he literally just couldn't what was clear is not that he couldn't think what his favorite film would be or would be a good film to be his favorite film. He couldn't think of the title of a film And in the end, he said, what you know, the person and then he remembered for weddings at in a funeral but for some reason he obviously didn't want to say that. So he said, you know, the guy who did that So I said, Richard Curtis, I was like, love actually. He's like, yeah, love actually. I was thinking There's just no way that your favorite film is Love A. There's just no way. but also the fact that you couldn't even think of it, mean Just say the Great escape or landbusters doesn't mean Bridge on the river qu. C come on. That's easy. He literally couldn't think of one. I believe he has zero cultural hintterland at all. I can't imagine there's a big, I think there's some discourse about like why is he on Desert Island is? What would he authentically choose? You're telling me that guy ever listens to music, ever watches anything, He doesn't exist. He doesn't have that. If you cannot name a film, other than you literally can't think of the name of a film It's ridiculous. And so For him, I think, the idea of having Whereas for someone like a bomber Now, Obama, you knew, had a megacultural hintterland and they became sort of curators. E during the time, he would put out stuff of what he was listening to Was he cool? I don't know. I mean, he was probably the person who most people thought as a politician had something closer to cool than anyone else. If he isn't cool, then I don't think he quite is, then it is impossible for a politician to be cool. So yeah, his curated music lists are always extraordinarary. I think the most recently has Kendrick Lamar, Chappell, Rowan, Rosa Leah, Berer Boyys on there. I mean, you know, absolutely Again, so beautifully curated, you kind of think, Is there more than one hand in this, I don't know. there's a little bit of everything. I quite like Andy Burnham's list because there's sort of not a little bit of everything in there. It's really just kind of know this and then this. and then this and then this But yeah, I think that if Barack Obama is not cool then no one's ever going to be cool and be a politician Some people found him cool all the way through. And of course, once the You know, bits that people couldn't get quite so much on board with, like extrajudicial killings and so on have faded into the background and worse has replaced it or whatever, then people have a sort of glow about him. But heliver he could deliver lines brilliantly. So when he did things like the White House correspondents' dinner and he would do it was like watching the stand upp to obviously a great pub speak but I remember there was one time when I think he did literally just drow up the mic at the end of you like. Yes extxtremely professional and well done. But I do think and again, we' not this is not a talking about politics at all, but I do think that the one thing you need in the current media climate is authenticity. And I just thought it was interesting looking at that list of albums and thinking, well, certainly in this area, he has an authenticity, has an ability to talk an authenticity. he has, and don't forget some people just aren't authentic. Some people would never find out who they are And this is a guy who does seem to have a good idea of who he is. And if you can get that across then it will serve him very well. But you versus the bond market, so I can't wait to find out who wins I you know what? genuinely, Id put my money on the laars Know Lee Mavers, I think I can absolutely see it. Actually on that album, IOU There's a lot about monetary policy in there If you only know the last from there she goes, then Oh my God, have a listen to that whole album It iss just a work of genius. He disowned it Lee Mavers, he just can't went through every great producer there was and just said, no this is All terrible. is all this is not what I'm hearing in my head and even now says that the album is awful. But he is wrong about It's not No, it's an extraordinary record And that authenticity means I can definitively answer the question, Are we about to have a first indicid Prime Minister? Yes I believe we are. has He has all the bona fides, He has the credentials. I'm not, by the way, making a falid judgment saying it's a good thing. I'm just saying as a nineteen eighties and nineties indndie kid myself, he is definitely one. It's a true thing. It's a true thing Okay, moving on from Andy Bynam, Quentin Tarantino, I love it when he pops up. Yes, has made another foray into the discourse to say that there have been no good movies. This was a couple of weeks ago. he said there' no good movies since the lockdown, since the pandemic. And he said they were all defined movies since then by flaws, implausibilities, audience pandndering, misscast performers or just plain stupid shit. okay? I personally love that he's out there talking about I love all the positions he takes. He always sparks something and we'll get on to what he sparks in a minute. He does always spark something. He, you know, he's only he's always said I'm only going to make ten films. I personally wish he' do more. I absolutely love it. Yeah. You know what he's doing nextough, which I could not be more here for Yes, a play' doing Yeah, he's going to write and direct a West End fast set in the eighteen thirties called the Popin Jay Cavalier. And he's doing with Sonya Friedman, the fantastic theatre producer and also Sony. So there's some suggestion that Sony Pictures, there's some suggestion that, you know, if takes off, then maybe he'll turn that into his final film. And it's for real. table reads at the moment as we speak. So it is definitely for real. I So I literally will I am all over that, okay. And I love that he takes these strong positions, whatever you think about him. he cly he puts stuff out there I don't think he's right. I mean, you know, look at what's happening in horror. L there's been lots of good things. By the way, he doesn't think he's right. He's right. It's just stupid shit, he said Exactly. But Jen said said going into the theaters. we're having a sort of correction from franchise IP in the way that all of these things he would like And I think that streaming in a way, TV and obviously lots of people migrated to television, but television is now so its so expensive. paradoxically that a series is going to cost, I don't know, one hundred twenty million, you've got to make lots of them. that in a way people I think it's an interesting time in a time of flux, and I disagree that there have been no good films since the pandemic Do we have to do this top three, which I do. Well I've got a top three of my favorite films since since the pandemic Yes. Do you have a top three I do one as a bit of a cheat Yes. T how? Well listen you'll see. We'll get to it. Okay, number three. Okay number three. You see, I have to say the numbers now just because I absolutely don't trust Stepven now is Nope, which it had a terrible title But it's it is in the horror genre. It's Jordan Peer.'s really, it's actually really good and it's a shame It's not complete to tell what it is, but it's all about us not filming things and not being able to look a awayave even when it's dangerous. It really it's really good and so it epitomizes that Number two, I really absolutely loved the Souvenir Part two and this is a bit of a small one because lots of people won't have seen this, but if you ha't seen Joanna Hal Hogg's work, the souvenir itself is amazing. This is a sequel to it. It's a sort of semi autobiographical story about a young filmmaker and the Souvenir Part two is amazing. And number one, I am going to say Bobenheimer. and I know that's unfair, but what I want to say f that's okay. But it's because what it showed us the moment of it. Look at thisary look at this extraordinary thing, It is a possibility that It rose up organically as a phenomenon, but here is someone making a film about something extreme. I mean, it' Christopher Nolan The director is the star. He's making something extremely, you know, you're making a film about the Manhattan project And then also, here is a movie effectively made in the service of a toy company, but nonetheless manages to become staggerly original and cool and masses of people to the theatre. so I would say that both of those and the phenomenon of them being yoked together was very, very cool and it showed you sort of a whole range of possibilities within filmmaking. So nope, souvenir partart two Barb and In some order, but I'll do it in that order Well, that's already've done it. so that's fine. So your favourite film was Barbenheimer. Okay I'm going to say that. those. bookers of what it represented, yes. That actually probably su any. I'm gonna give for three sort of comedies in a way, but I mean I mean all sort of bittersweet comedies. Ry Lane is my number three, the Rain Allan Miller movie, The sort of South London Rom Com with David Johnson, wrritten by Nathan Bryan and Tom Miller. It's a really, really, really funny, cute Charming, beautifully made movie that you just think, o, how lovely to see something so Perfectly forformed I've yet to meet anyone who didn't enjoy it. Number two, I'm gonna go for the holdovers the P painne movie Paul G Mitty where he's sort of, I think it's set in the early nineteen seventies and he's a teacher who has to look up after all the s board school att a boarding school who don't go home for Christas. In fact there's just one kid in the end. And it again, really, really, really beautiful movie. And number Bl one, it won't surprise you. I haven't gone for Barenheimer. I've gone for the Batt of Wallace Island. Tom Baddon and Tim Key. It's such a beautiful funny fm. But there's three films there, none of which outstay, they're welcome All of which have just beautiful writing beautiful. None of which cost crazy amounts of money all. And again, I absolutely get what Tarantino says because he has a very visceral approach to filmmaking. He wants something new and spectacular and something that shocks him and surprises him. And none of these movies would do that to him, but all of these movies if you're a writer or if you have any sort of love in your heart I think you would enjoy or three of them OkayK, so now to get on to what it's sparked. Obviously, the minute he says something like this, everyone's like, great this is a hook for us to publish lots of lists of things that are actually good like we've just done. What do you want to say about that and this new idea of these lists coming out all the time. This is now like a genre, a vertical, it is an entire permanently reiterating editorial product Really interesting appointment very recently. The New York Times has appointed someone called Gilbert Cruise to be their head of canon. Now he used to run the book review section There's a very small someome people say, oh, maybe he didn't do so well on the book review section. Is he being sort of moved aside? But actually This is a whole new job. They've never had a head of canon before. Now in terms of what is canon? It's like a civil warar. Yeah, I know. yeah, The word itself has been invented sort of it's gone over many, many times. It started actually in the thirteen hundreds where canon meant the collection of books of the Bible that were accepted by the Christian Church as genuine and inspired. By the twentieth century, it sort of meant the classics And fandoms talk about canon, you know, the sort of body of works taking place in their particular fictional world that they count, you know, And that started really The Manchester Guardian, apparently in nineteen thirty three had said, Oh just because a story contains the word elementary my dear whatson and it doesn't mean it's part of the official Sher. comes canon. And you know you've got all these fandoms to wet Star Wars, Is this cananon? Is this just off cananon? whatever it is. But the New York Times has appointed someone for this to do this job permanently, which seems odd. But these lists now form a huge amount of what you read online. had We used to have lists. They didn't exist in the same way. We would have power lists, you know, peopleople do a media power list like once a, but it was kind of niche. It was almost industry, or you'd get trade publications doing them, or you'd get, you the Sunday Times rich list. Then you'd have the Listical era, buzzfeed and all those sort of things. But it is now one of the most important things in digital media. and it's happened very, very quickly. and you'll notice it happens all the time. And what it's really what they are really saying the New York Times is that the most successful productucts cultural products that they produce are not criticism any longer. They are these giant definitive lists, these proprietary rankings of books or films or restaurants or whatever it is, I'm all in favor. Yeah. And it's become a huge market movie. you know, these books books, if once they say, you know, the top fifty books of the century or whatever it is, They reprint with that on the cover. They're not just quick listicles. You'll notice that something's changed. It's not just a kind of quick thing. You've got to get buy in from all your biggest critics and from know say you're doing movies, you get directors to cut it and this was the panel that chose this. But what you're creating there is something, first of all, they're obviously saying this is one of our most important business products that we create And what you're saying as well is this is an evergreen piece of updatable content. There are a mass market content format now and they do so much better than reviews. Every time the Guardian does this a lot, you'll notice that they have, you know the best the twenty best somethings ranked. those always perform incredibly well. Furthermore, They last longer. they're sort of evergreen. then they sit on your site and people come back and back to them and they use them as a form of curation. And that thing that we keep talking about taste and how taste is becoming in such a sort of noisy and crowded world really important. If you these big legacy media brands are moving increasingly into these things where they can you can keep updating the list and you can change it and it can become These are the most significant cultural products they produce, not criticism and reviews any. Yeah because you know we have enough we have enough canon now in various different areas that The new has become slightly less interesting and less important and actually just constant ways of dipping into The old, I think is fascinating. I did that Gardian Top hundred books thing where you had to do your, you know, ten favorite books of when they put it out, the comments underneath were just they go, Oh my God, where's this? where's X? And actually, funny enough the Gardian had done it in quite a smart way. They got loads and loads of writers, Stephen King, all sorts of people did it. And not only could you look at the top one hundred, but you could click on any person you wanted and read their top ten and read their comments about it. So if people say, where's X, where's why? going to look in some of the lists, you don't have to just look at the top hundred. That's literally just You know, everyone's fotkes are put together. That's why middle March is number one. I know you think it's boring but like a lot of Writers for whatever reason don't think it's boring And like my top ten, I have middle March on it, but there was only two of my top ten were in the hundred but you can click on mine and look through my favorite ten books. And you know, that's useful to people. I know I mean I'm someone who will always buy the book that's out this week. but most people want to look back through two hundred years of literature and go, what shouldn't Iad Why should you know, when the New York Times did its best books of the twenty first century. And you know, I looked through that and that's where I discovered lonesome Dove. or that's when I realized, oh I really should read Lonesome Dove. and I've been banging on about how brilliant that is.. That was it funny off in my top ten. And someone said to me, whyy is everyone talking about loneesomeub all of a sudden I think what because it was in that Yeah list. It's a really, really good way of rediscovering it's a really good way of discovering things that may be kind of passed you by a bit. if you look at writers like, you know, Barbara Pimm, for example, who has been, you know, rediscovered her her brilliant second for the second time. But you know, a lot of that is from List. a lot of that is from people saying, you know, what are the ten most overlook novels whoo are the we should Not everyone wants to say the Great Gatsby, sometimes' like to say. Yeah, you want to recommend things that you think actually or maybe people won't won't know this. I in I love. Traphic stays so gold for the publishers who are publishing these things Because people people say, what are the best books of all time? P me out here. Yeah. So it's really interesting. that these lists have actually become enormous and huge and we'll be I think that's not going to be the Last He of Canon, you see Yeah. Well funny enough, he sent me an email, which I thought was spam. So Gilt Cruz is the guy Gilbert Cruz. Yeahah asking about the best crime novels of time I thought it was spam. Gilbert I apologize. I had not realised that. But it also leadavs me on Nelyater I'm doing some bonus episodes which are essentially what is the best ever I love it US sit C What's the best ever UK game show, but I'm doing it in my traditional you know, World Cup of thing I'll have a couple of guests on. We'll talk about, you know, all the best things there possibly are and and find a winner. The first the first one we're doing is US sitcoms. what's the best ever US sitcom? And, you know, because because the Great James Burrows passed away this week who directed friendriends and Frasier and cheers. I mean and did more than direct those things as well. So we're going to find John Robins and Maisy Adam are joining me we're going to find the greatest US sitcom. That one I think we're going to make free to everyone after that it's for members time for that. Yes, I think it's going to be an awful lot of fun. L I mean, you know we talked about authenticity just now. I cannot be authentic without saying I love a list. I love putting things against each other and seeing what we. So does the market. Yeah. So does the World Cup. Yeah ye recommendations? Do know what? Ingrid is filming at the moment and she is can't say what in, but she's being an astronaut. And so we've been watching we've been watching lots of astronaut things just to see what they're like when they're when they're in their craft. And we watched Return to space, which is about the growth of SpaceX I absolutely loved it. It's really, really extraordinary. There's quite a lot of Elon Musk in it And actually there's quite a lot of Elon Musk acting like a human being in it and showing some emotion, but also sort of showing what it is that he's achieved there. But the main thing about it is is the astronauts and the people behind the scenes, the technicians and the people who work on this stuff, just it makes you realize what an extraordinary endeavor going to space is and what a team you need to do that. So I absolutely love that Rurn to space. And that's on Netflix. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. I loved it. How about you Oh my God, I can't believe the pettiness of mine compared to theic of that o I want to recommend a trailer which I saident to you on your holiday and I sincerely hope you watched Please can you just everyone watch the trailer for a new national Geographic documentary Docy Drama maybe? which I think it's going be on Disney pllus in which Tom Hiddleston is playing Tim detective to go back and solve the mystery of the final hours of Pompei. I think it's called Pompei out of time I'm going to find a way of making you do a full item on it because it' If you are a ironic admirer of Tom Hiddson's intensity as I am There is so much to enjoy in this trailer that I just want you know, do your homework guys and then we can talk and I'm just going to find a way of forcing it. And the other thing I would like to recommend You're not just going to recommend a tradeer. No. I' not going break. I'm going to recommend Roy Keeen being on Roy Keeen's rant on was asked by Gary Neville on the overlap the podcaster put something into sort football room one hundred and one. and he chose Wags who put their husband's names on the back of the shirt and then photographed themselalvesbidge. It's so special. Judge Roy Keeene has allowed that for the children of players. he was like, We know who you're married to. you'll be separated within a year I love you, Roy Keen. I love you. it's very special. Roy Keeen is sort of the Quentin Tarantino of a football is it? Absolutely. Yeah. So our bonus episode this week, Marina is the final episode of the Vibe shift that the series I did with James Canigaory in mines's about the sort of end of peak woke and where things are going now. It's really interesting And if you want to be a member, it's the Resess Etertainment d. comot get all those bonus episodes, you get ad free listening, all of that stuff. As always, you do not have to be a member. And for everyone else, we will see you for a Q and A on Thursday. See you on Thursday. Hello everyone. We've got some exciting news to share with the listeners of the Resters Entertainment. We do indeed. We are holding a summer sale so you can become a member of the club for a third off the regular price. That's right. withith the code suummer twenty six, you can head to the restesters entntertainment. com and claim annual membership with this brilliant discount. So if you want to spend your summer listening to us discussing celebrity drama, behind the scenes stories and industry gossip have none of the ads and why wouldn't you? It is a no brainer. Plus, you can catch up with all of the archive of our members only shows you may have missed, including Marina's latest series Vive Shift. And we've got lots more of those special series planned, but remember this deal will only run until the end of August. so don't wait around, head to thereestasntertainment. com now Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and All Birds continue to trust and use them With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your one dollar per month trial at Shopify. com slash special offer