Clarifying the Doctor Who Cancellation Rumors

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now fan mail is one of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way And the understanding that nothing may come back. Certainly in our day, you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. and maybe three months later a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly proformer, you know that you know Howard's never really looked at. Steve Martin used to have a performer sort of thing, which we just leave blanks, like insert, like small detail to make a joke about how completely impersonal his personal reply to you was, and it's just like a standard thing. Ipersonal is interest, and that's why'reking this, because Octopus Energy, you always can reply to their emails. and not only can you reply to them, they will go to the same small group of people who always deal with you. That's like unbelievable. 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Chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest' Entertainment with me, Marina Hyd. And me, Richard Osman. Hello everyone. Hello Marin. Hello H Richard. How are you? I'm very, very well. I'm looking forward to today. We've got some fun things to talk about. I normally ask what you've done this week but I know something you did this week. I think you had one of the greatest free experiences you can have in British show B businessiness this week. I went to Would I Le to you to a recording of Whatould I Le to you on Thursday night It was Totally amazing. If you like the show, this is basically like a sort of three hour vers of the show with no filler. No fill. There is no filler. I have even more respect for everyone involved in that show. than I did before I went, it's absolutely terrific. I'm not going to say the line upp. Because I don't know I'm allowed.. you had a good lineup. Oh my god it was insane. It was ridicous. It's always a good lineu upp that show because, you know, David Robin and Lee are always there. Having said that, mine was particularly good and youve commented on that matter. And too I took my daughter, who everyone was incredibly nice to. It's her favorite thing. she wants to be the booker on, but I like you when she really does This a mic put it pasta. It was absolutely brilliant. It's the most if you want to apply for tickets to watch that, you can via SRO and you can be in the audience and the audience is pretty big. You don't realize that because there's a little mini audience at the front you're seeing and you're thinking, Ohh gosh, but actually there's a big tiered stand at the back. I cannot recommend it enough. There is no villa. And as you say SRO, which is standing room only and there are various other audience places as well. And it's always free to go and see a TV show.imes donon't go. I wouldn't go to a sitcong because there's a lot of things, but things like Panel showhs is such a great free I mean, you know, you've gott to get there, but other than that I told took It was so good for the soul. We honestly laughed for three hours like the entire time And so I felt like I'd done some abdominal exercise without having to do any. And it was absolutely brilliant. I loved it. I can't thank everyone enough there. It was just terrific. So honestly, yeah, just apply because it's so worth it. It really is. What are we talking about this week? We are talking about there's a World Cup on and we are going to be talking about the kind of in the old days we would have said TV event, but it's now a massive social media event. We're going to be talking about all of those things and how it's changing the way we consume sport and accelerating changes that are already happening. Yeah. It's like the World Cup of Crisps for football. And we are also talking about doctor Who, been a big Ferrary this week about whether it's been cancellled or not, we'll be telling you exactly what's happening with it and I'll also be telling you who should be the next doctor. I have, I think, the perfect next doctor. Shall we talk about the World Cup World Cup. I mean, I'm still giddy from Ivory Coast one, Ecuador Nil. so forgive me if I'm breathless. There are one hundred and four matches, obviously, forty eight team. It feels like more haaued Cub, who I absolutely hate be for President Giani Infantino. Can I just say right off the bat, bring back to that blatter. Blatter in. thought. Infantino has promised one hundred at the start of this, he said, think of one hundred and four super bowls.. I don't know if you watched atar Switzerland, like we all had to because that's the timing of it all. I quite like a Qatar Switzerland. I like countries that would that would never ordinarily have anything to do with each other. The two are the great geopolitical mediators, of course, Switzerland under guitar. But you know what? I don't think Guy Mobbri mentioned it. No. We will talk about it as a TV or a media event because if you're lucky enough to be at the World Cup, well done you, I hope you have a brilliant time. But obviously for the vast majority of people, this is experienced as a TV and now a sort of social media or other platforms event. The timing of it, particularly for us in the UK, has meant You know, it's quite obvious. you try to sit down and you think I want to watch the World Cup now and you really can't watch any World Cup till very, very late. Yeah. Some games at like eight or nine PM, but there's eleven PM games there's two AM games, there's five AM games just because of the T difference. It is a very, very difficult worldld Cup for us to watch. What we really want, what we really love is a worldld Cup where there's a game at ten in the morning, there's a game at two in the afternoon, and then there's game at seven. That's the perfect cup for. I disagree. two, five and eight two five, No, I like at attend in the morning. We have jobs, so it's hard No, absolutely. But the whole point of a World Cup is how do you fit your is how do you fit your job? I want to walk through an office Where everyone is pretending to work, but they've all got their computer on and they've got the BC sports app during the game. Okay, I mean So for everyone who's not in offices and different types of jobs, No, I think two, five and eight is the optimal work hard times. Maybe we'll get some more of that next time around. My favorite thing about going to America is always you can watch Premier League football at sort of ten in the morning. Yes Things are filling the gap because it's harder to watch in a way. So there are lots and lots of shows podcast O very notable one because it's in our stable. The rest is football are in New York and they've got a big place overlooking Times Square, a big apartment where I'm obsessed with things that are on the kitchen island. Yeah. I assume they're living together the three guys Yeah they live stair stair Okay. So I assume theyve upstairs. They must be, right? They're filming that bit as a spin off sitcom for that's a love would they call it friends? I think they would to be fair. Yeah. I wanted to do thing say, but they wouldn't call it friends like like pretending that they weren't friends.s sadly, I think they are. It's not like Rory and Annister. No. I watch that sit Cong. I could watch that. Is it? Is it a sitcom 's like it is the bearest sit com. It'll be quite stressful. Yeah, it was a stressful two hander. And anyway, so stick to football there on YouTube. Obviously there's lots of podcasts of Guardian, have' got a very successful one.' doing very very well. very well. Here's Morgan is doing something a worldorld Cup uncensred to some sort of spin off off the kind of main ragebat brand which has got him, Simon Jordan and John Terry. Oh my God. Even like you know, James Corden is doing something for Fox Fox after hours, which is a kind of spin off thing on it. Everything's a bit like a sort of airport weerspoons in that whenever you're watching everyone's got a sort of pine to a glass of wine and it's kind of fine, I think. Yeah. There would seem to be a fcatcha on the The rest is football. Well the rest is foot.ah at Kitchen island the other day it is ' harder to watch games, so clips and punditry are really filling a lot of gaps and they're sort of doing that in general anyway, which we'll come to. But it feels like the whole virtually the whole of media is turned into an episode of soccer AM. Yeah, but slightly less well funded. But yeah, what do you do when you don't have the rights? Because of the timing of it People want stuff, and also I do think that people are changing the way they consume sport. The rest of football seems to work by. It kind of drops at six AM every day you can switch on Netflix. And of course they don't have the goals, but you know like any of those podcasts, are're just chatting about the game and that's interesting because you've seen some of them, you haven't seen some of them, and you can watch the goals on your phone. That's the point. I mean there are places where you can watch the goals You don't need them to be sort of talking through it. So it weirdly works. We'll talk a little bit more about the whole thing, but I will talk later about what I think this means for Netflix because I think it has a real I think the risk football is going to have a real significance for Netflix. Okay, let's talk first about all of this kind of, I don't know what you'd call it, like ancillary stuff, everything that's on YouTube. Let's call itcceria. Is it just about is it all clips? because there's so much stuff now you see a clip, the holy grail of sort of going viral, creating noise. I always think of it as a slight There is an answer to it, but it's a sort of yes but why, yes but why. know Okay, is it successful? If something goes viral? Yes but why,. And actually in the end, when you get down to the ultimate yes but why of this, for all of these things, it is about discovery of your show. your podcast or whatever you do. And it's about subscriber acquisition. So it turns a piece of a pretty cheap content into something that drives customer acquisition for whether you're doing some sort of. and you get more sponsorship and better platform distribution. It also, by the way, goes even deeper than that, which is for the individual people on those shows. It is good for their personal brand. And there are ways that they can monetize. They can just go, look, I had over know two hundred million views on this Perhaps you want to make me for your conference. Yeah. When Gary Linar in the last Euros said England played shit, I mean, it's not even it's something that any of us would have said to each other, but because it was different to how he was speaking on the BBC, it was a massive sort of viral moment and it was very good for the rest of football.. It drove a lot of sort of subscribers and it drove a lot of discovery and so on. I find it amazing after saying that he's still at the BBC find that I'm sor No, I do find it may that Maker analiststood at the PBC where we will get ono all of that. And so we know that the internet rewards strong opinions, tribalism and conflict Yeah. All of these clips are really like Do you strongly agree? Do you strongly disagree Can you strongly not wait to be able to share this in a mocking way when it's proved wrong? Can you That essentially the three things of a football clip. Esentially it's yeah. Can you believe what Shera said now And they all slightly do it. And even actually like I mean, once you start seeing it, you think Oh I see Gary Lina saying I'm going if the USA go all the way, I'm going to present this in my pants, whichich we know hes said before on Match the day about Leicester ten years ago. Gary Neville the other day talking about why if they've got all this technology, why won't Fa show us to us? It's like a dictatorship. I thought, I love all this stuff. you know, but then that's for ITV and that goes that goes viral. And it's a way of All of this stuff sort of exists as I mean, even Alexi Laes who none of us really want to watch the World Cup Var Fox at all. but I'm now aware of what they're doing because Alexi Laes said about James Corden, Oh he's a full kit Wanker Um, And so now we're like, all right, I see Alexei Lathers is doing for, you know, it is And also he's trying to tell Llatin that Ibrahimovich about football. Yeah, whichich is interesting. I can't I mean, Lalas I can strongly live without 's hardcore Maga. But what I think it's interesting is that all of this and particularly over here, as I've said, because of the timing is it's all about these changing habits, which is that Young people are not abandoning sport but they just consume it totally differently now Full match viewing is becoming a much smaller part of whatever sports consumption is The matches weirdly feel like a slight interruption into the flow of banter Yeah because you do think, oh my God, I've been really enjoying everything and I gott to watch ninety minutes of this Yeah. Well, I know, you know, people can't read a whole book anymore. I think the same I think the same is happening to football. So do I? I really do. Yeah. I think we're finding it almost impossible to sit through a whole match and that used to be that like the dream You used to go, o my god, the match is on and it's like what's happening? what's happen? Ive got outbate and have the next one and then an alperate and the next one and that's well. But now it's like you you watch the first ten minutes just to look at the kits And then you keep an eye on your phone just in case it goes to like three old or something. you think, o I've got to watch the last fifteen minutes of that. But yeah, I think the football match is going the way of the book. Yes, which is we'll have our views on that. I definitely think it's bad with books. But younger fans, it's sort of highlights, clips. Yeah. social content, athlete led social content that's around the Edrit and poatry. and All of this is set up this time aroundound to cater to that, partly because of the time zone, partly because of people being forward looking. And if you look at what all the different broadcasters have done, There was an interesting poll done by UGv saying that there's a whole thing that like old Jen said they don't like sport. That's not true. seventy four percent of eighteen to twenty four year olds follow sport regularly. but only thirty percent primarily watch full games. thirty four percent say they prefer highlights over full games. But I would have thought that has actually even gone up the thirty four percent since they did that. So they might watch ten minutes of highlights, some TikToks, they might have a forty five or even a sixty minute podcast about it all. But that's all adds up to, I supposees It all adds up to ninety, but it's not ninety as we knel it. Yes, it has become a completely different game The amount of money in it is so absolutely beyond enormous. Firstly, I think our attention spans can't take ninety minutes of a football game anymore. But secondly, everyone wants a piece of that, you know it's like the weapons industry. There's a lot of money in it. so even if you can get two percent of it, then you are making out like a bandit. And so everyone is really, really vying for the money, for the sponsorship money the attention money. The rights are almost becoming a burden.. So if you look at the US broadcasters who feel like, you know we withre CBS, we have to have this stuff going through our pipes. It's insanely expensive. It actually doesn't pay for itself It brings people, there's some sort of halo. It costs a fortune to get any sports rights. And almost everything that we're talking about here has no rights of any type They don't have highlights, they don't have anything. And TikTok have got some rights this time and TikTok can stream a couple of full games, I think. YouTube have got packages. They're trying to sort of attract other creators, all the broadcasters. As a forward looking thing to say, it doesn't have to be this. it doesn't you know if we don't have the rights or whatever, we can still have something around this. As you say, the weapons industry. The numbers for the games are still huge on terrestal TV and you know there's games getting three and a half, four and a half million. Yeah. The Scotland match got like one point seven million at two in the morning. Yeah. You don't need to know much about TV to know that's quite a big audience two in the morning. But if you think of the money they spent for it for three point five million viewers, it's amazing. It's great for a channel But you could be in a loft in New York with a couple of cameras getting clips that go crazily viral with far more than three million people. And that's the business we're in now. You know, I would have thought the rights to live broadcasting sports I think there's an interesting Future. because noise around sport is becoming much more lucrative. attention than the sport becoming bigger than sport itself. I couldn't agree more. In that case, can I just get on to some of the sort of standard so called controversies we've been seeing like The BBC aren't going, they're doingorford. I couldn't care less, by the way. Do you know what? I' E even a football country. So I'm sorry. I have to say that when I see like like no, the US. So when you see by the way, this is no shade on ITV set, which is obviously amazing. they' got the Broton Bridge in Manhattan the background. but I don't think of There's something about football countries. so when Spain and Morocco have it, if they have you know Serala familar in the background of of Barcelona and you're looking at that, it's like, oh, that's football. because Spain is a football country. But when I see the Manhattan skyline whilst amazing, I don't immediately think football, so I literally couldn't care whether they're there or not. I honestly couldn't. I think it's a real object lesson in The BBC are currently are going through lots and lots and lots of cuts. I think they announced this week there might be these ten percent of the news division, for example. but they're trying to find lots of places to make ut And this is a perfect one. You know what? it's great to have everyone out there because you get the vibe of the World Cup and it feels very special. They don't need to be there. If you see, they've got three great presenters, Keddy Kates, Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. They've got a great set, a great studio. They're following the match, they've got reporters out there. They're watching stuff on their phones just like we are. They are immersed in this tournament And it has saved millionsing everyone fights br and it's all made by the enemies of the BBC who by the way, if they had sent, they would be like, I can't believe the BBC is spending this much money on a f. There was an amazing teleraph headline about the work from home. World Cup for the BBC It's so pathetic. You can't win with these people. you can't win at all. And to sort of compare it with Glastonbury or anything like that Yeah, that's a weekend. It's so stupid that I'm embarrassed for anyone making that argument Yes agre. So I don't care about things like that. And I think they are going if England or Scotland get towards the end of the tournament, of course people will go out there. But it works so perfectly well and there' an immediate cost saving. And it's one of those things you absolutely get into the rhythm and go, Well of course you have to send them out because you know like in news like anywhere, you do need to be on the spot and on the scene But you know, so long as the commentators are in the stadium You know, obiously. You just stick the presenters anywhere. Yeah. It's great. You know, it's like and it's like money completely saved and there is zero, literally zero difference to the coverage. I couldn't agree more Can we talk a little bit about how particularly sporting events really usher in innovations in way things are filmed and what have you? Are we going talk about RefCAam?ess so You know I'm getting onto RefCam. That's where I'm going. Okay ye. By the way, you take everything from FIFA. That's just to explain to people where you get this stuff. It's not The feD comes from them. The innovations are up to them And they've got various different ones this time. They three D scanned all the players so that they could help with decisions. And also means they can clone them in future. Yes. And so they can have an interactical league where they'd have to pay anybody. humans disagreeing with any any of the things they do. But yeah, Reeree Camp, I mean, they have this in rugby. They've managed to sort of put some AI stabilizer on it so it doesn't look like horror movie fan Sound like backroom Yeahah, yeah, exactly. Mexico, South Africa againame, they showed the Ral Himino's goal on it and it was thought referee Wilton Samppao just sort of chasing us thinking, God, it's quite hard work, isn't it? I mean to keep up with these guys who you know hearing are pretty first. Yes.u m makes you feel much more sypathy and empathy for referees, but B, it's just brilliant. Yeah. It just looks amazing. M more immersive. Yeah. more like a computer game. Yeah, but real. Yeah, POV, you know everything is yeah, the audio is very is different, which is always a bit of a liability. So have to be quite careful with the audio because do we actually want to hear what they're saying? But you're supposed to get Because of all various of these innovations, you're supposed to get sort of faster and fairer offside decisions. I mean, I have some sympathy with Gary Neville. If you do it, can you please tell us? Can you show us then Yeah? And if you're keeping the information, I just don't trust you. I think it's a dictatorship. I think FIFA is a dictatorship. I think the World Cup is an abomination There we..'s today's varl. yeah. somethingomet like that. And let me tell you something about Gary Linaker. mean Lots of people are loving Christine Runkele. D she great. She's fantastic. So she's American referee who they bring in if there's ever any controversial decisions, which there always are. Yeah. She's so no nonsense. She was on the last World Cup as well. She was great on that. Ver, very good. But you know, that sort of thing that's a joy to watch. The cameras are very good they've got lots more of the sort spider cams You can't have drone cameras so much in football, which they which were really good in the winter Olympics, I thought. The drone cameras are amazing, but you can't have that because I'll probably get taken out by a Oh yeah by the ball. Yeah. Well by one of the sorry, again, America, we have no need to have military helicopters doing a fly past above a game. Just absolly we don't do that. Honestly, I'd rather that's American military helicopters are doing at the moment. You're right, you're right.akes some of circulation. Well, you know what? I would love it if you got anyway. I'll be overtaken this procast will be overtaken by a deal But that's why in Iran John Hee, the defefense secretary resigned. Yeah actually said, I don't have enough money to protect our country and also do fly passass. Do flypass over every Premier Lagueame. Yeah I can't do it all. It's very militarized. if you ever go to NFL games in the US There's so much of military hardware in the skies as a display before I don't feel we need to see this during a World Cup, certainly not where someone's just been awarded a peace prize But anyhow But FIA have beenort talking about dat attainment. They're sending people in the stadium. The WiFi is apparently way better. and so they're sending you stuff in your phone. Well, I mean, it could hardly have been worse where you actually couldn't send your copy when you were filing from the stadium sometimes. Oh really. My Godd, sometimes there would be real disasters, but anyway, But yeah, so they're sending stuff to people's phones in the stadium and they're trying to just make it all. I hate it so much. J you know what? just I know how I want to watch football. I don't want to want to look up I'll choose the one podcast that I love, I'll look at the goals, and I'll choose the games I want to watch live. That's all I want to do. Stop trying to upsell me all the time Yes, I agree. and they're always trying to make it seem like they're innovating. Stop putting a QR code on the screen saying if you want more information, I have all the information I need. I have got the in the information I need exactly. I have all the information in the world. I do not need your QR code. But there is always there's a sort of, you know, Americans like there a distinct aesthetic to their sports and how they like it to look. and obviously FIFA have leaned towards that. to some degree Can I talk a little bit about the rest of football and what it means for Netflix? So It was an interesting deal that the guys struck, a very lucrative one as well. and it is essentially sort of turning a podcast into a television program, which we've talked about a lot before that kind of mission creep of when you start videoing podcasts and then suddenly Everyone under thirty five starts watching them And then they start watching them on their TV. and then the streamer goes, Ohh'k. That that feels like a bit of you know, visual content. we do visual content, pererhaps you can come on this and when they do that, of course, they want slightly high production values and then suddenly it's turned into As you say, a slightly lower budget football focus. I mean that's what it becomes. But if you look at the rest of football, Netflix for a long time, have been desperately trying to get into the order scheduled telev So they do pop culture Jeopardy with Cin Joost and things like that. They want people to come back every day to watch the same thing in the same way that terstrial TV is. They want you to stay longer on the surface because at the moment I think there's some dispute whether it's an hour and a half or two hours that people spend on Netf. I think it's closer to an hour and that's it. they want you to spend much longer than that on the service. And the best way of doing that is have a show that's on every day for you, that's like an hour and a bit long. And the rest is football ever since its started. It's been in the top ten an awful lot since it launched. and often when you launch a show, it is in the top ten because of the way the algorithm works But if they can as the tournament progresses, stay in that top ten, three, four, five, six weeks and also They can show to Netflix viewers that you can turn on your TV and there's something a new episode of the thing you liked yesterday, and it's live and you can come and watch it. It's just a way of changing that consumer behaviour. And it's a really good it's a really good sort of Trojan horse to get people to understand that ye, sport particularly. Yeah. And we know that they don't, you know don' they have had some sporting rights But they say they haven't and they say they say everything, never belie even Netflix, what they say, but they want to have sports adjacent stuff. Yeah. So particularly when you've got something like this happening, the World Cup, which is obviously a kind of daily iterative, incredibly compelling attention event. They're desperate to get into the world of visualized podcasts because Visualised podcasts are the absolute holy grail, which is there are a lot of them They have a loyal audience who want to see the next one They create a big library as well But they're very, very, very cheap. Yeah. You keepave them on almost as though you used to leave the TV or the radio one in the background. And as you say, the World Cup is the perfect opportunity to say This is a destination for that if you would like that because none of the visualized podcasts are really taken off and none of their schedule program has really taken off. It makes a lot of noise, but people are being driven to it day after day after day in the way that know BoobC dayaytime has with Homes under the hammer. Yeah. Netflix essentially need their homes under the hammer held every day to go there. And at the moment, the rest is football is Netflix's homes under the hammer I mean, I should have said bargain hunt, really. that's more appropriate. But I do think it's going to be a huge deal for Netflix, I think seeing that Those people coming back again and again and again and again for the same thing. You know, if you make a two hour film You'll get a certain amount of if you make an hour every day for six weeks and people are still coming back and coming back and coming back, that is an entirely different business plan. In fact, it's the businessre in the supermarket. You're going back in every day for it, It's important and you just keep And while you Do you know what? I actually will get some fver Rchet. Yes. You know we've talked about the games themselves being less important. I think the BBC and ITV have both done an amazing job in this World Cup. The presenting teams on both channels are great ITV's pundit lineup is really, really good. It's really, really good. They did two games in a row the other day. they swapped all three pundits and every single one, I was like, well, this is great. No filla. Yeah. Emma Hayes, I love. Yeah. She's great. Yeah. I think both the channels are doing a great job, but this world around it, this noise around it, the podcastification of the World Cup, I think is fascinating. And if you don't like it, it's not going anywhere It really isn't Now, shall we take a hydration break? Oh, that's very clever. And after that we're going talk about is doctor Who canceled. This episode is brought to you by Lloyds. Now I love it when characters are part of a club. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you, Richard? The Thursday Murder Club in some ways reminds me of the A team. I would now would like to map each of those characters onto the A team and feel I probably could. I mean, Elizabeth is Hannibal and it's not even closed That's exactly right, and Ron is howling Mad Murdch. Well, there are definite perks to being in a club. just ask the members of Club Lloyds, because with Club Lloyds, you can bank on Lloyds to give you more wherever you are. If you join Club Lloyds there's sorts of benefits you can choose between. There's, for example, six free cinema tickets. They've got an annual coffee club and Gourmet Society membership, which would be mine. And also something that The Thursday Murder Club We wouldould' enjoy very, very much indeed. To top it all off, you have fee free spending abroad, which means wherever you are, you won't be charg by Loyds to use your debit card when you're traveveling. Now joining this club costs five pound per month, but that is refunded in any month that you pay two thousand pound into your account. Now that is a club that's worth being part of. Check out Club Lloyds today. You'll need to be a UK resident and aged eighteen or over to apply Welcome back, everyone. We're about to talk about Dr. Hoober. You're doing another live show without me. I'm doing a live show at the Rest is Fest at the South Bank on the sixth of September, which is a crossover event with Tom Holland from the Rest is History And it's called The Real Housewives of Regency England. I wanted to explain that we're essentially spending the entire profit margin of the weekend's festival on this one show. It's got very high production values. There's a number of things happening around it, and I think it will be a huge amount of fun. It will combine, if you love Regency England We love the real housewives I don't know which can buy me. It's a bit of both. There's something for everyone. Beautiful. And we can get tickets. You can get tickets for this at southbankcentre. co. uk and it's on Sunday the sixth of September. Let's talk about doctor Who. Now doctor Who, there's been a ferrar or a ferrar. What's happen, Richard? In the news this week because the BBC have announced that they are cancelling the upcoming Christmas special and they are Putting Dr. Who out to tender and The fan base and indeed the newspapers seem to have taken the expression out to tender to mean out to pasture There's been lots of headlines saying Dror Who has been cancellled. I won't string this out too much. It has not been cancellled. It has been the opposite of cancellled. What's the opposite of cancel? C contininued, I guess. So what has happened? Is this and I'll explain what being put out to tender means. Can I just say where we finished, okay? Yeah. The last the audiences saw was Last May. twenty twenty five which ended on a cliff hanger where Shuty Gapw was the current doctor regenerated into Rose Tyler, who, if you know the show, is Billy Piper and was one of the Doctor's companions right back when Russell T. Davis The Shrunner first brought this show back in two thousand five and he was the showrunner from two thousand five to twenty ten. Then other people took it over, and he returned in twenty twenty three When he returned, there was a co production deal with Disney plus whichich I will get into all of this anyway And that was the last episode essentially of that Disney pllus deal. So Disney pllus pulled out after that. their money came out as well, which is sort of bad, but you know these things almost always happened. Disney needed to be a certain thing, BBC needed to be a certain thing, and it didn't tick all the boxes for everyone. So Disney pulled out and BBC go, there's occuring on we're to do this Christmas special. So this news week that says, oh, we're not doing the Christmas special. and we're putting it out to tender. I think understandably makes everyone think, o my God is that the end for Doctor Who? True I've tried to speak to people from every side of this story. What happened was in twenty twenty five, Disney pou out, the BBC are still absolutely saying, no we are. definitely going to carry on with doctor Wh. What we will do is we're going to put this out to tender. againg, I'll explain what that means in twenty twenty eight, twenty twenty nine That was the original idea. At which point everyone goes, Oh we should do a Christmas special to you know, sort of bridge that gap because that's a long time It's currently made by It was made by Badwolfre an independent production company. But BBC oned the right, Badwolf made the show. So they said, lookook, we're going to put this out to tender. And because the BBC' dealing with Trump and Charlotte Moore, who was the chief Cent offfficer was leaving and Kate Fitis was coming in. so there was a lot of churn at that point as soon as Kate Fittz probably gets her feet under the table. She said, A we're going to put out to tender now ' because the whole point of putting out to teer is This is a big deal for us. This show is a big deal for us.' the opposite of saying we're going to rest it. It's the opposite of saying we're putting out to pasture. It is saying this show is a big deal for us. We want to have this give it multi series We need now to find production companies to pitch into us to say they want to make doctor Who. So, as you say, Badwolf make it at the moment. I don't think that they will pitch to do the new one because Beowwolf are very successful at the moment and you know, doctor Who' quite a burden to carry It's almost like being, you know, the owner of a football team if you're in charge of Doctor Who. Yes there's a lot of politics to come. a lot more fear of moving and we'll get onto the fandom shortly. Production companies can now pitch to make Doctor Who that contract is up for grams. the BC do this all the time with all sorts of shows, shows that they own the IP force. So something like Fake or Fortune that went out to Tinder, Songs of praise went out to Tinder, Mastermind, stuff like that. these shows where they make it and it is beholden on them to say, what's the best way we can make this can we keep it in house or as a production company? got a great idea about how to make. BBC stududios could pitch within this process. BBC studios could absolutely pitch BBC Studios almost always win these tenders you know, and sometimes it's because they you know like something like fake or forortune, BBC stududios make it anyway. and so they have those talent relations, they have the cost savings of knowing how to make it. So you know, BBC stududios usually are as an advantage. In this case, of course, it's been made by Bad Wolf for a long time, so they don't have any kind of incumbency advantage However guesses they might win it I would have thought. but I think there's various ways that you can win this pitch. If you, for example, he wouldn't do, I'm sure. But if you were an independent production company, and Jack Thorne said, I want to make Dr. Who and I'll make it with you then you may well make that pitch If you are an independent production company and you see the importance of all the incredible ancidary rights to Doctor Who and the kind of extended universe and you have an incredible pitch that includes lots of digital media and has like a really, really forward thinking way of making Doctor Who, you might win the pitch as well. know if you've got an incredible piece talent who has agreed to come on board as Dror Who and he's only going to work with you. you might win that pitch. But the process now is production companies will go into their bunkers, they will think, how will remake Doctor Who? How do we make it for that budget Do we keep it in cardiff? I think there's It'd be impossible to win this picture not keeping a card, by the way, because it's such big deal to the area and to the production hub there. So I think it will stay exactly where it is But they'll be going away, all their development people will be around knocking up a huge document. It's a funny one. If it's BBC IP, if you're bad Wolf and you're making doctor Who, it's not the biggest money spinner you're going to make because it doesn't belong to you. But production companies these days are far more sort of companies for high. Itince the world of streaming,' streaming you know, ts the IP for production companies to say a flow. No they have to take some of these gigs where, you know, then you're not making as much money as if you'd invented Dctor Who. So fifty companies will pitch, the BBC will cut that down to See you They will be invited in for extra pitches, you know to absolutely kind of go through every single detail of what it is that they want to do, how they're going to fund it, who the talent is beind the camera in front of the camera, all of those things and the BC would eventually choose a winner in that process. But that hopefully is the thing that reassures doctor Who viewers that this is not being put up to pasture,'s the exact opposite of that, which is the BBC see a long future for it. They have to find a way of future proofing it of making it in a way that that works for them, works at a price that works for them, that you know hopefully retains the integrity of that production base in Cardiff. But it's an enormously positive move. And the idea with the becausecause it's been slightly clouded by the fact that that Christmas special was cancellled. But as I say, they were the idea was they were going to put it out a tender in twenty twenty eight. as soon as they said we're putting it out a tender now, you can't make the Christmas special. because the canon of the show would be affected so much by what they were about to do with the whole, you know, Chui Gatwalter, Billy Piper thing' just you can't lay that on the next, you know, there are companies out who are working on where they take the doctor Who universe And if you're about to drop an enormous Christmas shaped bomb In the middle that it makes that process impossible for everybody. So that's why it does I mean, we'll get ont to the fandom in a minute, which like all fandoms, I don't want to completely homogenize it because it's very factional. We have to say why this has happened. too some degree, we have to be honest, you know, the ratings were not there. That's why Disney got out of it because it doesn't work for them. And not only that, the BC can that The fact that the BBC are doing it all tells you that the ratings are there for the BBC. I agree. There's not. What is it for the BBC? Is it like When Kate Phillips came on the show, she's the chief content offfficer of the BBC, she talked about you know what she dreams of for shows that they're those three G's. It's basically like whole all different generations sitting down and watching something together And when I say historically, I'm talking about from the two thousand five return that Russell T. Davis triumphantly created It was that show and but that was a different you know that's now twenty one years ago and that's a totally different linear era. And the difficulty with, you know, it's sitting on a streaming service, Disney pllus, but it's also and obviously on iPlayer as well. But it's also, is it still this thing that people might sit down at five fifty or six hundred thirty or whatever it is on Saturday evening to watch I will say that Chuti Gawa, I don't feel that he understood that the sense of what that role is. and it's a different role to lots of things. I probably won't be the last time I mentioned Bond It's a bit like being something like James Bond. It's a responsibility. It's a responsibility.. It's an ambassadorial role to some degree. and I don't feel he first of all, he didn't ever in interviews come across as partularly enjoying it, Maybe that's just the personality type, I don't know. But you are something more than I'm just playing a guy on TV. And you know, David Tellnant obviously, he was a huge fanfald. Mattmith, who wasn't but I mean, was extraordinary as a replacement. I just think Mattsmith era on the show is brilliant.. And Peter Capaldi, who is was another you know huge doctor who fan. All of those people understood that they were essentially in, isn't It's very unusual role there it is That's why I think it's almost like boond in some ways. it means something much more and it's something connected to something kind of bigger. Also, you know, you have this fandom. The fandom is, as I said, I don't want to homogenize it. You have some sort of die hard Hoovians, you have some real people who've been with it for decades. Um, and then that you know you have you also have the kind of hisis Majesty's Press who think that it's all a big woke culture war. Russell T. Davis would probably say that elements he had rather lost elements of the fandom And I think that for me just reading the statement, he said, For the record, there's no script. I never wrote it and no actor was ever approached to play the next Doctor. You may disagree, Fine sit in that chair and wait to be proved right. You'll be waiting a long time There's a little niggle in there for me as a statement. he's a good writer. I literally I mean, I love him. I literally love him. And the only reason we're having any of this conversation at all is because this show fell away in nineteen eighty nine and there were all sorts of people saying, who's going to rescue us? you know, maybe Amberlin, there was a whole movement at the time. Maybe Steven Spielberg's company' going to come and went, Yeahah, well, it didn't happen guys, okay. And this show that we are even talking about now, Russell T. Davis working at CBC, I think in nineteen eighty nine. And in two thousand five, he brououghtght it back in this absolutely triumphant way. and that's really the reason why it's sort of in the mix in this conversation. It's a big beast, the culture around the show. I say it's very like being the Englland manager or the chairman of a football club It will end in failure whoever you are. At some point your exit will always be ignominious, always. In that last episode, there's so many different things happening. There's like The reality war is happening without getting too into the absolute lore of it if you don't watch it, but the reality war is happening. An extraordinary thing that has just happened in terms of regeneration. To me, it is slightly like Oh my God How do I come back after No Time to Die if I'm doing the next Bom film? But equally, wow Here's something that we're now talking about in the similar terms of James Bond I think the fandoms slightly have to remember that had a very engaged fandom and people had a big heritage memory of it and hiding behind the sofas and all those sort of things. It wasn't this kind of global thing that people and it's become its status has increased enormously since two thousand five as a whole idea. And so I think the fact that you're even having these conversations of like Who's so and so good to do with it? How will they deal with all these things I agree that there's quite a lot to take on just in terms of the loose ends and cliffhangers and you know, things have been laid down as story points That's the same for who has to come in and Stehen Knight has to come in and write. boond after No Time to Die and what they did at the end of that, which was eccentric Um and but, you know, you've got to you've got to find a way through. Yeah. and We know that people brilliant writers can find a way through these things.. And that's the thing. It's interesting going out to Tinder because what it actually means is you do spread theet net out quite wide. There isn't sort of some sort of you know succession strategy. All these different companies will be talking to different writers and somewhere there will be Some you know in the same way that you the nineteen eighties doctor Who was so special for Russell. There will be people for whom the Russell T. Davis show was incredibly special. when they were growing up. It looks like some young writer who can take this on and do something extraordinary with it. It has to be an awful lot cheaper than the last generation of it because the Disney money is out. So you have to find a way of making it cheaper. but do that with Dct. Who, it's always been about emotion and storyline rather than CGI. The BBC tender quite a lot of things And I'll say this there is not a single show that they have tended, which hasn't gone on to have multiple series They've never done a tender and gone Ah, we're going to get rid of this or done a tender and they do one more series and it disappears. Every tender the BBC has ever done is for a show that they are absolutely committed to and that they want to go forward with. So It's not the long grass. It is not the long grass evenven though people think it at the moment, it's not. It's really, really not. It may well be just to deal with the financial side of it that some of these companies bring in production partners and bring in foreign money that the BBC doesn't have. So, you know, there there's lots of ways of cutting your cloth But genuinely 's a huge money spendit for the BBC still. to who, the kind of universe around it. It doesn't punch its weight in terms of ratings, you know on the overnights, but that's becoming less and less and less important. So I have to say something people like there's a lot of noise about the Christmas special the last Christmas special TV reings, but something that I'm sure we'll talk about more when we come to Christmas is Is Christmas TV what it used to be? I mean across the board last year. they had some extraordinary things the year before with Gavin and Stacey and things like that, but actually Christmas TV is not Christmas TV. We have a folk memory of something that doesn't exist anymore. I've got a couple ofays of making it cheaper, by the way. because as I say, lots of people will be pitching because this tender process has only just started. so there'll be lots of production kind of crews sitting around this week talking about how they land doctor Who. Just ways of making it cheaper. This is my best way Ross Kemper' Dctor Who and the whole series him sitting around vaping while the tard disk gets fixed. I love it. It's like because he's just thinking about what happened, you know in previous iterations and stuff, but he's just just every now and again just going it? Does it take you inside the mind of Camp U yeah, a little. well, well, it takes you inside the mind of doctor Who He's not playing he's not playing Ross Kemp Isn't he always Well, it's will really well, maybe but isn't Dctor Who I think any way. Okay, so Rosackke sitting around vaping while the tild just gets fixed. Yes? Junior Doctor Who, which is just a whole series where he's on strike and catching up on his sleep feels doable. So torchwood which was torchwood, which is as it we knows is anagram of doctor Who. So I've got two other anagrams Hoot crrowd, which is Doctor who looks after an Owl sanctuary, or Ow Hotcord, which is the doctor injuring himself on hotel room kettles Okay, I love all of those. Not bad, is it? Absolutely amazing. Is that So Ross Kampber is your pick for the next doctor? think I think the tard is being fixed and the doctor having to just sort of go to the betting shop and just sort of wait around, pop into Audi every now and again It's to be interesting. just the kind of down time of Doctor Whom What does he get up? I watch it. If you can't travel through the universe. With a right writer, I would watch it. Yeah, exactly. But genuinely and I've tried to talk to as many people as I can, everyone seems very I absolutely see where the fandom is coming from. fandom catastropizing to some degree. And by the way, you would because to varying degrees, I think it's fair. I care about it so much. It's interesting with Ingrid having been in Doctor Who, I quite often meet Doctor Who fans and to a person I found them to be just kind and thoughtful and funny and the process is going to be fascinating. somethingomet really interesting will come. Do you want to know who the knee doctor who should be We've enjoyed very much Saturday Night Live, the UK Saturdayight night Live. and there's an absolute standout star from that George Facers Yeah. Wouldn't he be amazing? All the best oors whos can really do comedy. You talkking about Matt Smith, Tenor Capaldi.. they can really do comedy, but you could stick him on a Shakespeare and they can do that as well. And George Facers is a great Shakespearean actor and a great. Wouldn't he be that. Yeah. Any recommendations, Marina. I have loved the new Olivia Rodrigo album, which is called You seem Pretty Sad for a Girl in loveove And it's a whole arc from sort of falling, you know, these I like this sort of genre for yeah for an album. Be she became famous, you know, when she was seventeen. and I do think that's a that's really difficult whether you can grow as an artist and you canort she's absolutely a huge deal. But she's sort of floating above that. and I think she's absolutely brilliant. Robert Smith does a duette on this and she obviously boughtght him on stage at Glastonbury for her set. and that was and I some people sort of didn't get that, but I think it's brilliant and you realize much it's more developed that sort of influence on her this They're just great songs. And I think it's really wonderful that she's been able to sort of kick on D definitely, definitely, definitely to a much higher level Because sometimes at that age it must be quite hard she'some a sort of woman artist when you got famous at seventeen And we live in a golden age of pop music, I think. we really do. It's hard because we't believe we do because we don't all coalesce around the same songs in the same way that we used to because we're not just sort of a one radio station culture. The songs are all out there. it's harder to find them sometimes when you're slightly older like I am. I'll recommend there's a new series of four seasons on Netflix, the Tina Fay, Coleman, Domingo and the rest of them and it's just' very beautifully written, beaifully observed. and if you like the first series, youll love the second series. If you've not seen the first series of four seasons, I would strongly recommend that as well. So it's two recommendations reallyady, but the same show Okay, well, we will be back on Thursday with a Q and A with Tom Hanks. Toy Story five is out on Friday and Woody is here with us, but we're talking about lots of it's really cool. We're talking about quite a lot of other things as well. and' full disclosure, we've already done the interview, and he's a dude, right Oh my god, please. He's inded. But We've asked your questions as well. So yeah, join us on Thursday for Tom Hanks. On Wednesday, for our members, the bonus episode, which is I'm talking to James Canghasorumom, and it's all about Capturing the Zeitgeist, his company does a lot of work on the zeitgeist and where the Zitgeist is going next it's really, really interesting. It's a deep dive. That series between the twoV has been absolutely fascinating If people have not listening to it, It is genuinely brilliant.s're great by knew already. He's very very. He didn't know he was great. He's very interesting. Okay, so if you want to join for Adfreree Listening and bonus episodes, it's the rest isntertainment dot com d Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday