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Yeah. I love that they do. I hope we're gonna do this for me in another episode. But then w but then we find out if I Yeah, I think I'm considerably older than you, aren't I? Not that much. What? It's like two, three years, isn't it? Yeah, you'll be saying uh and the best selling single in the year that you were 14 Richard it's Cumberland Gap by Lonnie Doneg an This episode is brought to you by People's Postcode Lottery. Now it's no longer enough to just watch something on television. We have to go there. We have to stand where it was filmed. We have to visit a place that began as a production backdrop and now comes with opening hours. We used to suspend disbelief, now we pack for it. Escapism has very quietly acquired a baggage allowance. But occasionally the leap from sofa to set is shorter than you'd think. One recent People's Postcode lottery winner, Rihanne from Leicester, won four hundred and sixteen thousand949. 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And me Richard Osman. Hello Marina. Hello Richard, how are you? Yeah, I'm twenty-four hours earlier than I normally am. Yes, you are. We are So we are coming out early to catch uh the post the post-Oscars buzz. We've the Oscars' buzz. Are you feeling crazy? I'm you know, I'm I'm just managing to touch earth again. Yeah. Yeah, touching look Yeah, that's nice. That's different to touching cloth, right? Yeah. Um yeah, listen, it's crazy. Absolutely crazy. But we'll talk about everything that happened last night the winners, the losers, and what it tells us about the state of Hollywood. Yes. And we're also going to talk about Love Story, the monster Ryan Murphy show from Monster Ryan Murphy um about the love story between Carolyn Bassett um and John F. Kennedy Jr. and all the controversy. It's 'cause specifically they portrayed Daryl Hannah as a baddie and she's like, uh I didn't do any of this. And they went, Yeah, we know. Uh so we're going to talk about about how that's acceptable. Right, let's get into it. Yes, she's The Academy Awards. It was a very good night for horror. It was not a good night for Timothy Chalamet. Um, but I did find f I do there's them there to be something increasingly sort of elegiac about this um broadcast. Yeah. And you know, the in Conan O'Brien who hosted and you know did a very good job. Yeah. But the when you're opening monologue contains a lot of stuff about AI, streaming, um, I d there is a sense that the bit that they can't say out loud is how relevant are we really, even though surely we're the most relevant people in the world. And there is I and I find it increasingly something that fits with an industry in decline. Well, it's certainly the biggest awards ceremony in the world, but not for the biggest creative industry in the world. 'Cause television and music and you know, arguably even video games sort of have slightly more uh sway over the world. And yet the Oscars there is still something great about them, there is still that legacy thing. You know, it is even though we don't want to care about them. It's like it's like the League Cup final. Later we'll talk about what actually is this event because it has sort of been going on for longer than ever this year. It's kind of a six and a half months campaign. Yeah. And that was the broadcast itself. That was just last night,. ye Yeahah, yeah. Okay, so the big winners were One Battle After Another and Sinners and they were you know, they're both Warner Brothers films, they're both from they got a lot of shout-outs, um Mike DeLucre and Pam Abde who run the film division And had those nine 30 million plus dollar movies in a row. Lots of big swings, and these were two of them, and they and they won big. And yet already that studio has just been acquired by the Ellisons. They're saying they're gonna make 30 movies a year. Maybe humans will make some of those movies. I don't know. It's it almost seemed like you know that we were already in a new and much more difficult era. Yes, if I was Mike and Pam, I'd be I would certainly be you know, I'd be having meetings. Yeah, this is the high water mark. Yeah. Um anyway, there there were there were a series of races that um seemed so locked on throughout this incre I mean people do say that this one has gone on longer than ever. I always think that Oscar campaigning basically is nine months of the year, but that's because I exaggerate for some form of comic effect. But I think it genuinely is like seven months. Timothy Chalamet hasn't sort of stopped campaigning from a complete unknown. He's sort of just been on a rolling Oscar campaign and he was one of the ones who I mean it seemed it was going to be between him and Leonardo DiCaprio for best actor and in the end, Michael B. Jordan got it for sinners. Um, quite a few of these races, it seemed like, oh my gosh, are they going to completely break open in the late stages? Actually, they didn't. They never do. No, no, it was the things that were sort of locked on were almost locked on. It's like Eurovision these days, as so many people know exactly what's gonna happen before it happens. It's I try I try and I try and avoid it or you can't you have to just let it happen on the night. Well you can they do need to fill it with with anything that goes on this long, and I'm pretty sure we're gonna be talking about this in the love story section of this podcast as well. When anything goes on this long, you sort of need a villain. The whole the campaign season itself almost has to sort of function as a narrative. And so when Timothy Chalamet comes out and I I mean I feel so ridiculously sorry for him for this c these comments he made about ballet and opera and people not caring about them and the fact is those art forms are not as big as they were in previous centuries. Movies, the great art form of the 20th century, may not be as big in the it in the future. First of all, don't ever do anything on a live stream. That's that was his first mistake. Absolutely the street, because it could yeah, it feels it 'cause he said these in a live stream with Matthew McConaughey, some sort of 'cause when you read it fourth hand you're like, Oh come on man, you come on, don't have a go at ballet and opera. People you know that's p that's p that's people's livelihoods. I'll say a couple of things about it. Firstly, yes, he's literally just on the stage with a friend in front of a live audience doing some like banter, which you know it's absolutely fine, and then you forget that it's live streamed and everyone around the world sees it. I imagine if you asked him, do you think that ballet and opera are worthless. He would say they are not for me, but I don't think they're worthless. But the great thing about it is that ballet and opera worlds have come out and used it in incredibly smart ways. Like all the kind of ballet companies who are now saying if you ring up and and quote the uh the code Chalamet when you you book get ten percent off your tickets and things it's it's sort of in a weird kind of way uh been the best publicity ballet and opera I've had for many, many years. Well that's uh says a lot, yeah. Anyway, he emerged as the villain, effectively. Although he did actually say that after the Academy had voted, so that had no effect on whether he was going to win best actor or not. Jessie Barkley said something about having some her boyfriend's cats or her husband's cats rehomed when they first moved in together or something like that. She nearly became villainous cat lady. She then had to go on a talk show and say, I actually want audition to play a cat. Oh, you wonder in what movie? And didn't you get it? And sort of made a you know? I'm guessing I'm guessing not Garfield too. No, I don't think so. So she sort of survived that and and and won best actress. She was she was the biggest lock of things. She was the biggest lock. The big awards I do think actually are more fun Oscars than there has been for years because there were proper races apart from Jesse Buckley, who we knew was going to win. That battle that was supposed to be between DiCaprio and Chalamet, and then actually Michael B. Jordan and Windsor and correctly in my opinion, I think all three performances are brilliant. That that's the other good thing. There's some really good films out there this year nominated and crowd pleasy type films as well. And I thought Timothy Shanneme was amazing and Marty Supreme. I think DiCaprio you forget what a brilliant comic actor DiCaprio is. Oh, it was so funny. And in one battle after another, he's a it's a really, really great performance. But I think Michael B. Jordan, listen, he's playing twins, which I didn't realise at first. I thought, well, they got somebody who really looks like Michael B. Jordan to play his brother. Because of my eyesight, I don't sometimes sometimes take me a little while. And then I was like, I was turning to Ingrid, I goes, Are they both Michael B. Jordan? She's like, Yeah, they're both Michael B. Jordan. Okay, good, I can enjoy the rest of the film now. Um I thought that's I love that film so much and he's so great and he's such a class act, which I know has nothing to do with whether he should win an Oscar or not. But I but I love we didn't know he was gonna win, which we you know, which it's not always the case. And also the best movie, we didn't know that one battle after another was gonna win. No, I I sort of felt it would and I actually felt by the end that he was going to for he was for sure gonna win. Can I say something that I think I said last year, but it it remains a big thing for me. Uh if you go to any music awards, music artists talk about their fans all the time. They literally talk about them all the time. They thank them all the time. They thank Michael B. again, you don't see it at the Oscars at all, even though the industry is besieged and people Michael B. Jordan, such a class act, he said, I want to thank people who went out and saw this movie once, twice, three times, and that was a thing with sinners, it was this kind of cultural phenomenon. And I find it extraordinary that you just don't see these people acknowledge all those wonderful people out there in the dark. Yeah. I I really think it would be time, guys, to look outwards and say thank you to the people who go. Music artists do this all the time and they are they live in a world where they are constantly interacting with and acknowledging the fan base that pays their salaries, if I can put it in that role fascinating. It still has that thing of we are an art form. And of course you are. Of course you're an art form. We absolutely get that. But when you're on that size of stage, when you're but you're doing something like the Oscars, which is huge, and it's about, you know, these mass platform films. You also have to understand you're not always you are entertainment. You know, you're on it's and people don't like to be in the entertainment business sometimes. They want to be in the art business. And at that level of Hollywood, you are in the entertainment business. And when you're in the entertainment business, it is about whether people come and see you. And you're right, who's the only person who said thank you? You got a joke in the opening monologue about Ted Sarandos who's sitting there. He by the way, he is so good at this. I mean the studio cameo is obviously ridiculously good. He's really good in that. But he was the big joke in the thing is like, oh look, Ted the Sarandus, you're in a theatre. This is what people are talking about. You see, you know, and he lost it.m a theatre thing. He I'f I'm in a theatre, people he laughed at at all of that. Michael Michael B. Jordan, by the way, not is not only the only person to uh thank the fans. He's also, if you want to know what I was uh doing last night, of the of the I think around about four hundred Oscar winning actors in the history of the Os Oscars. It's the first one with a country as a surn ame. First one, can you believe it? I was going through and through and through Well they didn't make anything of that. There's l listen, there's loads of cities. Right? There's Burt Lancaster, there's Wackham Phoenix, there's Glenda Jackson, Denzel Washington, um, for Lancastrians listening, uh there's Vivian Lee. So that's that's all been taken care of, but he's the first one with a with a with a surname as a country. There was, however, someone uh with a country for a first name who's who's won an acting Oscar. Oh. Anyone at home? Anyone at home? I should do this whole thing as a quiz. Yeah. Um Cuba Gooding Jr. Okay, very good. There you go. Very good. Okay. So again, let's go back to horror because it this was a I'm very happy about that aspect of it. Horror is finally prestige. Finally. Every now and then you get these break movies that break out for horror, like something like Silence of the Lambs or maybe Get Out or whatever it is. Last year people thought that maybe Nosferatu and Um The Substance would go further than they did, but they didn't. But this year, um Sinners is, you know, effectively a a a a a horror. It's there there are quite a bit of John Real. Well I lo yeah. Well I love that Amy Madigan won for weapons. Weapons, yeah. Which is again, which is kind of like a creepy thriller, horror but it is a horror thing. So that was for some reason the Academy has regarded it as a little bit too rich for the blood, all of these kind of movies, but it was great to see them do well. And particularly when horror as a genre props up a huge amount of Hollywood and actually makes money. Because I have to say, can we talk about the best picture nominations? Yes, please. It's to me, it's really interesting. I was thinking, what does this actually tell us about Hollywo od? Which ones earned out at the box office? Okay, so they were earned they they earned their budget and the marketing. Yeah. And one battle after another, no. No. Sinners, yes. F one, just about, we don't know how much that movie cost. It but it probably costs more than three hundred. There's an awful lot of side bets on that though, aren't there? If you're in bed with Formula One and Apple, there's a listen so unclear. Nobody, nobody's having to put their hand on the game. Secret Agent, yes. Sentimental value, yes. Hamnet, yes. Begonia, no. Train Dreams, no, it's Netflix. Frankenstein, no, it's Netflix. So that is four out of the ten nominees earned out in that first crucial window, the theatrical window, the time it's in cinemas, and two of those are very low budget foreign films. What does that say about, you know, the supposedly still prime entertainment product? Well I don't know. I don't mind that so much and and 'cause I'm gonna argue against myself now 'cause I was saying that thing about art and entertainment. And uh I do think as a human being you have to accept you're in the entertainment business. I think it's nice though that as an academy you're allowed to um vote for movies that perhaps the public didn't go crazy for just to say, oh by the way, maybe you know like I wouldn't watch Train Dreams without it being on that uh Academy Award list. And I'm very very watching without being on Netflix, let's face it. Yeah. But you know what I mean. I think I think I think that we you know I think it's good to have something like F1 on that list because at least oh like there's a there's a big sort of um tent pole um movie. You know the trouble with Hollywood is they think that one battle uh after another is a big movie. Uh and you know it isn't parti it is that is still an art house movie to almost every single person who watches movies. You know, Sinners is probably the closest thing on that list, if you if you discount F one to being like a tent pole movie that lots and lots of people actually were excited to go and see. You know, one battle against another, Paul Thomas Anderson, he is he he's' hes's sort of not house director who can make some money, but you know, he's not if you ask a hundred people in the street, this has comes from years of doing pointless. Yeah. Uh who Paul Thomas Anderson is, two people will know and ninety ninety eight people will not know. I mean same with Ryan Kugler, but people more more people will have heard of sinners than one battle against another. But you know, I don't mind that so much. It is just there is an absence of though because there's an absence in in the marketplace of Well maybe we'll get that this year. We know that there are a huge number of sort of big films and But the troll the troll is most we had it with we had it with Barbie and Oppenheimer. Yes we did. We did so much of that huge money has gone into uh animation sequels and still you know Marvel things and and so you know the money for those huge you know movies it's is just not there anymore. But it it's uh you know the Oscars is sort of bigger than the films inside or has been for a long time but the, question is, is that going to continue? Can you talk a little bit about what's happening with this? It's going to go to YouTube, right? It's going to go to YouTube, which I think is okay, the Academy has one event, okay, and it can sell it to anyone it likes. And it's been with ABC for and we show it on ITV here, but you can just they that that lie that Conan O'Brien said again in the opening monologue, a billion people are watching, a billion people are not watching. Yeah. I It it's a nonsense and it's not true. Um it gets around if it does well, like it keeps getting about nineteen million viewers in the US. Okay, say it gets twenty million, there are three hundred and forty odd peop million odd people in the u in the US. Yeah. It's the equivalent of what the BBC London uh six thirty pm bulletin gets any given weekday in our country, okay? So what is it? Is it a broadcast at all? Because it's actually a sort of weird cultural event that as we say has been running for what feels like very, very and has been running for very, very many months. There are whole newsletters that come out every week that make a lot of do a lot of business on, you know, who's up, who's down, uh, which the big plays are, you know, what you know what where it can see the tracking going. There are there's an unbelievable amount of money bet on it. I think the last count they said was a hundred couple of days ago was a hundred and twenty million on Calci Poly Market Polymarket, those kind of prediction sites. And it but most it will be a lot more now. Most of it will be we've talked uh about Calci and Polymarket being real real two screen things. And if you're watching the Oscars, it's so long, it's so interminably long that actually uh betting on it having something to at least look through is one of the uh the um few things you can do. I've been betting on the Oscars. You know, you can't you're not gonna uh make any money from it. So but you know, listen, it but it if it gets you through the Oscars, all one and good. But nothing gets as much coverage for as long in almost our entire culture and and it amounts to 20 million US viewers on a on a very good day. Okay, so where is the event actually happening? That's why I think it's good that they've gone to YouTube. They've gone to some of the places that the conversation, the buzz, because right now the buzz is not happening within the ceremony itself. And I uh you know, we've said it before it's difficult. And the buzz is not happening on the TV stream either. The buzz. The buzz is happening around it. Around it. And it's difficult because it it's much easier w when it's the Grammys or anything like that or the Brits. The art that you were celebrating is a handly comes in a three minute long thing and it can be performed on the night and it's quite exciting. And it's and it's okay not to hear from the person who did it afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So the buzz is happening on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, so they'll be able to collaborate. They'll be able they've already you know, they bring in they've already brought in for a long time Amelia de Moldenberg who does the red carpet things. They've tried to do things, but ultimately it feels like a very sort of one point oh thing still this long long long telecast and it will be much better to see what they can do with it since they only have this one thing. I don't think everyone putting all their content on YouTube is a great idea. But for the Academy who have one shopfront, they may as well. Because also, and this is the reason it's so long, and this is the reason why something has to be done, is because there's so many stakeholders in the Oscars. The channel who make it, the Academy themselves, and then all the different studios, and all the different movies, and then all the most famous people who are going to the Oscars. All of those people have a view as to what the most important thing about the Oscars is. Okay. And the most important thing about the Oscars for all of them is their selves or their organizations or or or whatever it is. So if you're at the academy, um, they need things to be uh done in a respectful way. That's what they need. And they need you, know, the Academy to be held above all things. If you're any of the actors, if you're any of the people, they need to be respected. They need to be given their time. They need if they want to take a long walk up to the stage, they're gonna take a long walk up to the state because y they're like super, super famous. And it has become so calcified over years and years and years and years that the thing that happens in television all the time is if you've got a show with lots of moving parts, which this has a whole bunch of different awards. Um it's every time you add thirty seconds to each of them, suddenly you're you've added another twenty minutes to your whole thing. And then if you add another thirty seconds, you've added another twenty minutes. And the whole point of these shows is everything has to be brutal. And if you're YouTube, they're the first people who would be able to say, Oh no, y this is sorry, this is not gonna be three hours and thirty minutes long, but ev everyone's cut look here's here's here's the numbers. This this this is when people are gonna switch off. This you've got one minute for. Speeches we can do in a way that we'll stick 'em in a different room and we'll play them as an inset while you're doing something else. We are not going to sit and have that attention span. But you'll be able to go to the sidebar the entire time the minute you're not interested in something. Exactly. That will be a bit that you are interested in. Trevor Burrus. The whole point about those things is there's people in the audience, there's people on the stage, and there's loads of people backstage who've just won or are about to win, you know, and so you you can hear from all of them all the time. If you want to do three and a half hours, you've got to give people three and a half hours hours worth of content. And if you looked at that, maybe they maybe you've got an hour and fifty of content in three and a half hours, and it's just that's that's that's not gonna wash for people. But I think it's because when you've done something for so long and there's so much money and so much art and prestige and ego involved, nobody wants to give away their 30 seconds. Nobody does. And if everyone wants to keep their 30 seconds, then it's really, really long. So hopefully YouTube will be able to say, we do this quickly now. We do it multi-camera, we do it multi-site, we do it, you know, multi-feed, uh and it we're gonna absolutely race through it. And then if you want to do a seven minute speech, by all means do it. And then look at your numbers the next day to see if anyone had migrated backstage or if anyone was at the the kind of watch along part If your agent is worth anything, they will find a way of burying and hiding those numbers for you so that you never find out that actually people don't care about this stuff. No, but your agent is getting thanked in your speech and your agent will see those numbers. So your agent knows if you give a seven minute speech I know they can't give long speeches now, but if you give a long speech and nobody is watching, if you give a really cracking funny thirty second speech with one with one absolute big soundbite in the middle of it, everyone's gonna watch it, it's gonna be clipped everywhere, and everyone's gonna hear their name. That's the that's the key. I think it will shake it up in a way that it definitely needs to be. Something we talked about last year and sadly we, have to talk about each year because it does matter. What tells the biggest truth is what advertising is bought in supposedly this event where you know everybody's watching. There was one movie, yet again, one upcoming movie, Project Hail Mary, the thing where for reasons not at all clear in the trailer, Ryan Gosling is going to space. I will watch it next weekend. So it does look great to be fair. I I'll I'll have a look. That's one advert for a cin a film about to come into cinemas. There's lots of adverts for things on streaming, there's lots of TV adverts. And by the way, there's no adverts from the big tech company. So during the Super Bowl, which is something that people actually do care about and and and watch uh a lot of people watch that. A lot of people watch it and people who don't like the thing that it is about. Yeah. They will still watch the Super Bowl. Um that had all of the you know your um your AI companies and the the people with all the money. Uh and on the Oscars, no they're not Or maybe they they try and keep 'em out. We just don't know. But um they'll certainly be having a few adverts from what's the Google uh Gemini AI next time, won't they? Oh because it's on YouTube. I think they will be. Yes, no. But y but but yes, but I think they ha are sort of kept out. Um and the people who are watching, I I can assure you are twenty million movie fans, people who have gone out and bought the tickets. So thank them more. Let it not just be Michael B. Jordan's job to thank the people who actually go and leave their house and pay to see things. But also maybe you'd like to advertise some upcoming attractions to them. Or wh why are you advertising things that are on streaming? Even during the ceremony. Turn it into a celebration of movies. And don't you know, it's you know, you can't have the orchestral sting, lighting change. The I mean j uh just it's desiccated, isn't it? It is old and boring. But of course it is, by the way, because that's how you know my generation grew up making those shows. You want to the idea of it is you make it grand. The idea of it is you do have these incredible lighting changes and you do have these incredible orchestral stings because that was the language of television and you wanted it better than anyone else. And often better means longer. And so you can see why it got that way. But there is a new generation who watch television differently and you are in the business of storytelling. And by the way, there will be lots of people behind the scenes at the Oscars who know this. But because of that idea there are so many stakeholders, it's going to take them a couple of years really to persuade people that maybe they, you know, if you have to persuade a a a a room of people my age that you have to make it quicker and you can lose X, Y, or Z. That take that takes a couple of years, I would say. But uh, you know, you could see the Oscars being a unbelievable entertainment, you know, absolutely full of clips, absolutely full of upcoming things, absolutely full of outtakes, you know, full of you know, little remixes of movies, actors talking to each other, you know, behind the scene. You know, the sort of stuff that people have shown you time and time and time again they want to watch. That's the stuff about movies they want to watch. And I know you want to make it feel incredibly blue chip and incredibly important. And you do have to do that. That's a balance you have to strike. But you won you do not do that by making it three and a half hours long. I think they know that. I think they know that by now. But the Oscars could be ugly. I think they don't know what to I I mean honestly, that's what I said at the start of this. I find it an elegoric event to a huge extent. It it is they they are not quite sure what to do. And there for many years, even though lots of the best picture nomination, you know, nobody had really seen them and they all of those sorts of things, in and there was a sort of bombers to it all. I didn't detect that at all this year. It's like they now know. They can't say the bit about irrelevance out loud. But my God, it hung over it. It really did. And I I feel that it is there in the room now and people know and they don't really know what to do about it. So it is gonna take s some quite significant disruption. They've got a great host by the way now. Conan you could take straight to YouTube and would be absolutely accepted. But like the cold open the weapons stuff. That was great that was great. As you say, Amelia de Moldenberg, absolutely you know, that's a YouTube native. All the all the pieces are in place for someone just to go we just we are absolute you know the running order that we start it start from each year and we fill in the gaps. We get rid of that running order this year. We just do it we we' were we' we're going to do it completely differently. And you would think that maybe the YouTube move will be when they can do that. The big thing I was thinking about because it wouldn't be Masako, and this is the I haven't seen a lot written about this, certainly in the American Trades, is whether there have been more actors who've appeared in casualty who've been nominated for Academy Awards or more actors who've appeared on the bill. Why didn't why wasn't our whole section? I haven't seen it at all. But I've done that, I've run the numbers. Of course. You'll be absolutely delighted to hear it. Surprise me. Yeah. Um so people who've appeared on the bill have been nominated for Oscars and one some of them, Olivia Coleman's been on the bill. Yeah. Pete Posselthwaite. Uh Wimmy Masako, who I thought was amazing in Sinners. Uh Ron Moody, who uh who was nominated for his role as Fagan, he's been on the bill. Daniel Kaluya and Kira Knightley. So they've got six on the bill. Casualty. Okay. Or Brenda Fricker. Yeah. Who of course was big on casualty for a long time and then um won the Oscar for my left foot. Kate Winslit, Orlando Bloom, Emily Watson, Riz Ahmed. So we've got five there. Don't forget we had six on the bill. Yeah. So we've got five. But there are two people to build on the bill who've also been on casualty. And they are Daniel Kaluya and Kira Knightley. So casualty has seven against the Bills six. So seven people who've who who've appeared in Casualty have uh been nominated for an Oscar. It would have been nice if they'd said thank you to both those shows from the stage. Well, can I tell you? Did you did you even say thank you? I'm the JD Vance at this. Did you even say thank you? I was tweeting nonstop and then I forgot that no one could see it. Um I'll tell you the show that's coming up on the rails though. They've only got two at the moment, and that's Silent Witness. So Silent Witness has got um Cumberbatch and Daniel Kalouya. Daniel, thank you, doing a lot of heavy lifting. But also in the silent witness, you can imagine all of these I had to look through to check that a couple of these hadn't ever been nominated. Idris Elba's been in it, Jody Comer has been in it, Daisy Ridley, Nicholas Holt, they've all been in Silent Winter. So you would think maybe they could give casualty a run for their money. But casualty keeps going. Yeah. Yeah. But that feels to me like a real missed opportunity for Calci, for Polly Market, for Conan. I mean, I would have done almost all of the, you know, I would have done almost all the monologue about silent witness, Casualty and the Bill and then my closing remarks would have been about Michael B. Jordan being um having a surname as a country. And that's how I would have done it and you too. You have made a come and get me plea today for hosting duties in the future. Can you imagine anyone less suited to doing the Oscars on YouTube? It is me. That's all I can I just say that I find this very interesting you'd be saying. That is all that is all I'd be doing. I'm not even gonna go into this, but people with middle initials in their names as well either but it's I can't I'm not I cannot because I listen I know it's Monday morning everybody and we've we we we we all have lives. My favourite fact though is um Michael B. Jordan is the first person to win an Oscar for playing multiple roles since Lee Marvin in Cat Baloo. And yes, I double checked and Eddie Murphy did not win an Oscar for Norbert . Robbed. Robbed. Absolutely robbed. So congratulations to Sinners. If you were choosing the best pitcher winner, what what would you have gone for? It's n it's never gonna win. I absolutely love the secret agent. Yes. I I you know what? I would have gone for one battle after another. By chance it ended up being about its times and I thought it was v very well done. I I appreciate that it is an art house film and it you know, I would have tried to bring it in for n for ninety or a hundred million dollars then we're not having the same conversation. Yeah. And he was due which you shouldn't ever say but he was due a win. I mean he genuinely if Paul Thomas Anderson has not won an Oscar is crazy 'cause he's made some of the best Hollywood movies there are. I I wouldn't have given it this year, but again you kinda go, Yeah, but what if he's always done the second best every year and he never wins one? So I I'm very happy that he won it. Um I I I would choose between Sinners Sinners and Marty Supreme. I really liked Marty Supreme. Oh my god, why didn't I even say that? I I should have said Marty Supreme. I absolutely by the way, yeah, you're right. What what on earth? I okay. I it disappeared in this. It disappeared. I'm so sorry. My actual answer is multi supreme. Um I don't know how I forgot. Yeah, it disappears. Poor The Secret Agent. No, the Super Secret Agent is brilliant, but I've I i it's an art house movie. But I loved Marty Supreme. I love a young star. I people don't the r one of the reasons I don't think they like Chip Timothy Chalamet to some degree is that there's some that's part of the whole calcified thing. You gotta be a certain age to get an Oscar. You can't want it too much. You can't, you know, he's very hungry. He wa he's very obvious. He says what he wants. And but he's a young star that people are young people are excited about. And they should be thrilled they have someone by the way, this is not takeaway from Michael B. Jordan at all, but the amount of approprium heaped on Timothy Chalamet, I thought he was extraordinary. I thought the movie I loved the movie. Yeah, okay, I would have picked that. I'm sorry, I don't know. Multi supreme, yeah. I don't yeah, either Multi Supreme or Sinners. I really, really liked Sinners. What I will say I felt it was quite three and a half star for me. Really? I'm I I really liked it. I know it was roughly from Dust or Dawn, but it was there was there was there was something about it I loved. I think that um w what I will say is if you have not seen a lot of these um ten movies, you d genuinely have a treat and in store that that's not the same every year, but I think you would I think Sinners is a really enjoyable watch. I think one battle after another is Marty Supreme is, um Secret Agent is, Train Dreams is you know, I I haven't seen Frankenstein, even though I sat next to Guillaume de Toro on a plane, as we've uh discussed. Uh but of the movies on that list, there are some actual fun evenings to be had. And uh how lovely that we can we can say that at least. Uh and yeah, and and Michael B. Jordan I thought was just uh was class personified. Yeah. So nice to see that. Thank the fans. Always thank the fans and congratulations to casualty, of course. Of course yes. Right. Shall we go to a break? After the break we are going to be talking about the huge hit love story, the Ryan Murphy series about um Carolyn Bassett and John F. Kennedy Jr., which has caused a some a some significant controversies. Oh you're gonna love it. Uh and I'm gonna put a jacket on because I'm quite cold. Are you not cold ? This episode is brought to you by Bumble. Now Richard, people get very nervous before sending the first message on dating apps. Your finger hovers over the phone screen thinking, am I actually gonna do this? Yeah, they debate if the person is who they say they are and if replying is gonna feel comfortable But Bumble's photo, number, and ID verification makes it much clearer who is behind the profile, giving you the subtle reassurance that lowers the stakes of sending the first hey. And when that pressure drops somet,hing interesting happens, profiles become more relaxed, more specific, and way more human. And the conversation just starts to flow. 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Cancer research UK backs innovative ideas, and thanks to decades of support, over eight in ten people in the UK receiving cancer drugs are using one developed by or with cancer research UK scientists. For more information about cancer research UK, their research, breakthroughs, and how you can support them, visit CancerResearch UK.org forward slash the rest is sci ence. This episode is brought to you by Lufthansa. So we all love a holiday, right, Richard? I think we all do. So if you're thinking about that big dream holiday, might I suggest Rio de Janeiro? I have always fancied Rio de Janeiro. Are you telling me that Lufthansa fly to Rio de Janeiro? I most certainly am. You can enjoy Lufthansa's easy and tailored service from takeoff to touchdown, and then you'll be ready to enjoy all that Rio has to offer as soon as you're I genuinely would like to go to Rio. Buenos Aires I loved and because I've I've felt I've looked at it. Karen's been to Rio twice, but for the carnival, both times. I still definitely, definitely want to go for the carnival. You can hang out on the world famous Copacabana and Ipanema beaches. Marvel at Christ the Redeemer and Sugar Loaf Mountain while sipping on a Kaiparina, of course. Not to forget their world famous music, spirit of celebration, and football. Those samba rhythms will take you away. And so will Lufthansa with an individual premium service from the moment you book. It's maximum comfort above the clouds. Say yes to Rio de Janeiro with Lufthansa and discover more at Lufthansa. com. Welcome back everybody. Now we are talking about the strange case of Daryl Hannah. And the basic question in this story is what do you do when the biggest TV show in the world portrays you as yourself but completely misrepresents you? Which is what's happened here. She's become embroiled in a scandal not Not at all. She's the love story, which is the story of the uh you know, fa fact or fiction story of Caroline Caroline Bassett and John F. Kennedy Jr. It's the most watched limited series now ever on Disney Hulu. It's not even finished yet. They're dropping it. It's Ryan Murphy. Friend of the podcast. Yeah. And of course it's uh triggered uh re triggered everyone's complete style obsession with Carolyn Bassett. There's been a huge Halo effect. All these the even just the the the chemist that sells the tortoiseshell headbutt band um that she wears has had greater sales than ever and it's sort of 188 Yeah, I know it's um it's absolutely mad. Um yeah, it came from a sort of you know, fancy New York chemist. They call them drug stores, surely. They don't chemists over there, do they? Yeah. Want to confuse it with the drug elements of Darryl Hannah's story. That's pretty much a little bit. Uh thank you. Um I'm learning from the best, aren't I, Richard? Now uh I think it's eight it's uh eight one hours, basically, or uh nearly eight one hours. And you need an antagonist in a story like that, considering they got t we know they got together and they married and then they tragically died in a for those of us who know very little about Carolyn Bassett and John F. Kennedy Jr. What's what's what's the basic story before before we get into what love story shows us? He was JFK's child who we saw at the funeral. He's American royalty, you know, the sort of tragic son of Camelot. He falls in love and marries Carolyn Bassett, who's incredibly stylish. They one time that he's piloting them her them down to the family compound on Martha's Vineyard, and they die in a plane crash. And it's a sort of tragic love story. She's actually relatively little photographed compared to any single woman on the planet now, including no people you've never heard of, because everyone has their own paparazzi now and photographs themselves all the time. So who was she? What was her background? She's a fashion sort of she was worked for for Calvin Klein, she and but she was a sort of fashion icon, but she's pr particularly become a fashion icon after her death, and most particularly over the last few years. Ryan Murphy all this knows how to tap into these zeitgeist things slightly before they hit the absolute mainstream zeitgeist and he's done it with this again. So you think so the so you got an idea for the story, um JFK Jr., Carolyn Bissett, as you say, comes from a certain era which he knows is going to look amazing. And the genre all of its own now, which we will certainly get to in this discussion. But then you have to expand the story out a little bit, which is what he's done And he previously, John F. Kennedy Jr. had had a relationship with Darryl Hannah that was a bit on again, off again. Anyway. She was the actress who we remember from the 1980s from Splash and all that all that kind of stuff. She was huge, wasn't she? I mean absolutely huge. I think these days perhaps there's a generation who might not know who she is quite so much. Yeah, she's sort of withdrawn from that kind of world particularly. Um but all of these stories kind of need an antagonist once they stop being real life and become something that you watch on TV. Daryl Hannah last weekend published this op-ed in the New York Times, an opinion piece, which I have to say seems to me like was really written under the advice of lawyers and she it's headlined, How can love story get away with this? It's a completely searing attack. There are too many quotable bits, but So what what can how can they get away with what? What's the A recent tragedy exploiting television series about John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bassett features a character using my name and presents her as me. The choice to portray her as irritating, self-absorbed, whiny, and inappropri And then she cites one of the producers of Love Story who'd said, given how much we're rooting for John and Carolyn, Darrell Hannah occupies a space where she's an adversary to what you want narratively to the story. Wow, why did you say that out loud, even though that's obviously what you've done? Okay, she even says there's a gender dimension to this. It's always, you know, there has to be a bad woman in all of this. But here here's a paragraph that I find particularly would be quite hard to swallow unless you're Ryan Murphy and you literally don't have to do even your own swallowing. The character Daryl Hannah portrayed in the series is not even a remotely accurate representation of my life, my conduct or my relationship with John. The actions and behaviours attributed to me are untrue. I have never used cocaine in my life, nor hosted cocaine fuelled parties. I have never pressured anyone to the marriage. I have never desecrated any family heirloom or intruded on anyone's private memorial. I have never planted any story in the press. I never compared Jacqueline Anassis's death to a dog's. Oh no, yeah. Anyway, and what she does say though as well is that when so many people watch a real dramatisation, real life consequences follow and she's had threatening messages from people who believe the portrayal is factual. And she says when entertainment borrows a real person's name, it can permanently impact her reputation. Now, oh my goodness me. I mean what a thing to have done. I mean you know, he very famously peoples lots of his shows with you know uh real people from history. Um and I'll I'll go on to a particular example um in a bit, but in this case it's absolutely picked on someone who is still b very much alive and kicking, very much out there, and has used her likeness, used her name. You know, you portrayed a living person as something that they're not, making her do illegal things, for example, certainly making her do morally questionable things. And as you say, when you go to such trouble to make everything else in your drama look so real and look so vivid, then as a viewer w why would you not think that this is true. Everyone's like, oh my god this looks so awful, the hair's too blonde, this is that. So Ryan Murphy sort of swooped in and got rid of that costume designer. I should say, we should say, that there is another show runner for this project, a guy called Connor Hines. And all of these things kind of happen, just to give you the background to how Ryan Murphy's unbelievable factory of content works because he's got huge numbers of shows on at any one time. Connor Hines is a showrunner but clearly it's all under the aegis of um Ryan Murphy. He does these huge deals. His last deal was with Netflix. He got $300 million for I think a five-year deal for them. The new deal is with Disney, which they say is for less, but you know, he's almost like is he inching towards being the first billionaire screenwriter. You know, he's part I the most sort of valuable showrunners and or or people who have lots of different shows on American TV are, I guess, for me they would be Taylor Sheridan or sh who does all the Yellowstone and various other spin-offs, and Shonda Rhimes, who has Bridget and Grey's Anatomy, all those sorts of things. Ryan Murphy for me is much more of a he's I mean, he's obviously it's much more splashy in some ways, but he's much more of a liability. But he has so many more shows in some ways that than them and he is brilliant at capturing, you know, where the puck's going to go. He understands the zeitgeist in a way that he's sort of got there's a show coming out before you've even quite realised that this has become mainstream. There's also another part of the site site crisis which which is not just what are people interested in, it's it's is how is the culture thinking about things and one of the ways the culture thinks about things is facts are very movable and changeable and narratives are very movable and changeable and actually you can remix history all you like. So he's sort of a ahead of the curve on that. But then you get to a situation like this, you think, well that's great, but the fact you understand the Zeitgeist and you understand how people sort of look back at narrative and look back at how the world is. You have therefore ended up with a show where you have portrayed a living human being who's just written an op-ed in the New York Times as as a cocaine fueled monster. And what happens next? If you're Darrell Hannah, where d where do you go? If you're Ryan Murphy, how do you defend it? We can talk about how the success people have had the people versus Ryan Murphy. We can talk about that. Let's talk about that real life genre though, because that has become so huge. And all of these that you know, things that are true stories or based on true stories didn't used to be, you know, we had biopics, but they were kind of like they were looked down on, really, to be perfectly honest with you. And turbocharging events, in my view, happened in 2016. Ryan Murphy brings out The People versus OJ Simpson, which by the way is quite prestige because everyone sort of remembers this thing. It happened, but it's it's long enough away, you know, at the OJ case, and he's able to go back and excavate it in an intro in a quite an interesting way. The other thing that happens in 2016 is that thewn C starrots airing. And that obviously is a sort of again, it's got real people and it's telling real stories. But is it you know, you ha they haven't bought any of those people up, as we would say. The Crown grew out of the Queen and even that maybe even out of the deal, both of which were actually directed by Stephen Frizz. And he's if I've talked to him a lot about using real people. He's done lots of things that use real people. The Norman Scott's still alive, he did the um Jeremy Thorpe um very British scandal um quiz about the coughing major, all those sort of things. So he's very you know, he says normally you have to sort of sit down and talk to people and say ultimately we are making a sort of piece of art here as well. So it may not be. But equally, people do sometimes feel traduced. In the Lost King, the one about the finding of the Richard Third in the car park, the university professor has successfully won some money for being made to look like he was just a sort of sexist person who didn't care about the woman who eventually did find um Richard. Any screenwriter will tell you, any channel will tell you, people's lives are not lived in the order of a movie. We tend not to live our life with a neat first act, second act, third act with a inciting incidents and beats happening exactly when we want them and adversaries popping up where we want them and a clear delineation between good and evil. So whatever story you're telling, be that entirely fictional or you know a mixture of both, you are always manipulating people's emotions. You're always manipulating the order of events and making sure that things happen in the exact order that's going to give an audience the most satisfaction. So that's just that's how you write any screenplay, any book, with obvious exceptions. But the second that this genre becomes incredibly popular and there's huge amounts of this story stories from the news, I mean th it's the new IP isn't it? Yeah. Stuff that happens. Baby reindeer. Baby well w we haven't we must talk about baby reindeer because that that I want to know well how how has impacted exactly. But the second you start writing in in this sort of genre and the second people go, Oh but it's you know that actually we can you know we can be a little bit loose with the truth and we can change things and we can sort of you know kind of mold two characters into two. Absolutely inevitable that of course you change the lives of real people and you change the personalities of real people and you certainly change the personalities of people who come into the story and they happen to be real as well. So this story is not about Daryl Hannah, but as you said, we need an adversary and she fits it perfectly. So you see how it happens, but I don't think, to me, it is acceptable. Completely. Is it not also a function of this type and this era of long form television? Okay, when we had biopics, they were two hours long. So you can sort of do the love story of two people and they' veryre very, ancillary characters. TV eats plot. You cannot get eight hours of television out of two people. You need eight characters, they all need to have very significant arcs. A whole lot needs to happen, you know. I mean just I'm putting a number on it, eight, I not necessarily, but maybe actually, I think you do. And in order for all of this stuff to happen, it would be rich enough to sustain and actually lots of these things you think, God in the old days this would have been a lot shorter and you strung it out over an hour, fine. But in order to sustain effectively eight hours of television, you need a lot more. And this is why you end up bigging up these people who are really just completely, as I say, I mean that they would be answering nothings in the inner. Oh but hold right it didn't happen. Is that okay? I think maybe but you know you're always going to pitch the screen. Well that's it so I was I was they were lucky with that. I was looking at the people um you know who have tried to sue and and and and couldn't and you know, you can get away with the crown because the principals are not going to sue. Yeah. In that case. And you know, Oliver Dowden, who was the culture secretary at the time, said uh told Netflix you have to write uh parts of this are fictionalized and Netflix didn't because yeah, I mean who who's going to go to court? Sort sort of nobody. Um Eduardo Savarin, who was um you know, one of the co founders of Facebook with uh Mart Zuckerberg, he took great exception to the social network and said, Look, this is nothing like our relationship, you know, Andrew Garfield plays him in the movie. He didn't sue, but be it'cause 'cause he'd already reached some sort of enormous financial settlement with Mark Zuckerberg anyway. So they can sort of say what they're like about Eduardo Severin because he's unbelievably loaded. The crown you get away with Jeffrey who's the guy who the hurtlocker is based on, he tries to sue as well, but they changed his name. And sometimes that's all that's all you really need to do. So you could say, well look, it's you me and th the judge in that case goes well it's not obvious to almost anybody. You know, but the the public don't know, so you know you, can't sue either. The closest to to this one would be Olivia de Havilland. So Ryan Murphy's The Feud, which is twenty sixteen, which was Joan Crawford and Betty Davis. It was about their feud and Olivia de Havilland is in it. Uh and Olivia de Havilland sues and she says, Look, you have Catherine Zita Jones plays her and there's a scene where she calls her sister a bitch. And Olivia de Haviland and her sister Joan Fontaine famously had a very fractious relationship, but he said I've I never called her a bitch. You made me out to be something I'm not. I'm a real human being. She was a hundred and one years old at the time. Where she sued lived till a hundred and four Olivia De Havilland. She was see Ryan Murphy's thinking with that every single person in this is no longer with us. You know, Sinatra's in it. There's lo there's loads of people in that, but you know, no one can sue, I can tell this story. Olivia De Havilland, of course, is still with us 'cause she's a hundred and one years old. And they said, Well did you not when you're representing her, did you not go and talk to her and say this is happening? Uh and he said, I didn't like to intrude. That was his that was his reason. She she she, by the way, did not win her lawsuit because in America it's very, very, very hard. You have to show uh you know that that someone intended malice. Yeah, well that's why we can get away with the crown in this country because the royals won't sue. Anyone else it is very, very difficult and, you can sue for LIBOR. But Connor Hines said, who's the showrunner of um Love Story, said that they didn't want to talk to the Kennedys because it allowed them to be objective. So he's all they're always doing this. I tell you who has had success, um, but this is ages ago as well. And by the way, this is quite a good precedent though because this was in 2013. VH1, that takes you back, which was at the time owned by Viacom. Again, that takes you back, one of the many previous owners of Paramount. Perry Reed, who was nicknamed Pebble, she was a manager of TLC. And they did a biopic of TLC, the girl band, and it was called Crazy Sexy Cool, which was also the name of one of the albums. But she managed them in the early 90s and they portrayed her as completely sort of manipulative and villainous and someone who withheld all the money from them and all of this. She sued Violetcom for absolute years. She asked for forty million dollars. I don't know what she got because she settled and it's never ever been revealed what she got, but she would have got a lot for that. So there is that a comparable case, maybe Rachel Delarose, she was the Vanity Fair journalist who's shown as Anna Delvey, the sort of scammer's friend, and then she sort of falls out with her in in Inventing Anna, Netflix's series about that. Now she did sue and she settled with Netflix for quite a significant amount. There's Albert Friedman who was the um the TV producer who's portrayed on Quizho Sw and portrayed as being part of the scandal. And he sued there's Vincent DeSimoni who who was um one of the lawyers uh in the Reuben Carter case, so in that movie Hurricane, he is shown as as deliberately using falsified evidence. So in both those cases they won. It's very, very, very hard and I've looked everywhere to find anyone who's won. But of the few cases where they have won, is where people have been deliberately named, named as themselves, and they've been shown doing something illegal which they can prove they did not do. Well, I mean that's right, baby reindeer. The character that Martha, the stalker, is based on, he's played by Jessica Garden. Yeah, the actual person who's yeah, he's I'm afraid his name is now so ubiquitous that I forgot that the character was called Martha. She is suing Netflix for I mean, I can't remember it's more than a hundred million, it's a huge amount of money. Okay, she's not gonna get that. But they've allowed this case to proceed at every point they could have stopped it through the American courts. Netflix will settle with her, I think. A lot of money. I got a lot of money. And and d you know what it Because they said that she they say that she goes to she goes to prison at the end of it and that she that doesn't happen and they've made her identifiable. And and a large part of the marketing for that show is this is She was so readily identifiable, like screenshots shots from you know mm tweets and things like that that gossamer sort of uh screen between, you know, her fake name and her real name is is is pretty much non existent. I think Daryl Hannah might sue because the way she maybe she'll just think I can't it's so I mean, as I've said before on this podcast, don't lit a go, unless you really can't not. And she I I would have thought that that was written with a lawyer, a lot of that I think. It it comes across it's so well done. And maybe she maybe she will sue. Certain people have sort of felt it's like Pamela Anderson felt it was a sort of violation but she didn't sue. I do really the Pam and Tommy thing. I think that is harder. This one is quite easy because it's showing her involved in illegal activity and she can just say you do prove it. Yes. Um it may be that she doesn't want to go down that road for all kinds of reasons and lots of us would not just really want to have to go through the whole thing. If a version of yourself has been given such a huge platform, which it has, then your real self maybe wants a platform that size which a law suit might bring. I mean I absolutely agree with you. These things never work out as intended. It's it's definitely worth reading. And by the way, we this the journey of Ryan Murphy in this direction, I think is really interesting because he as I say, he didn't start off like this. If you look at that original You can see how he ended up there. You can see how he ended up but if you look at that original People vs. OJ, which was very good and which really takes care with all the different people and parti you know really humanizes people. The prosecutor in that Marcia Clark who was, oh my God, the subject of such vitriol because you know it just became this complete kind of cultural obsession while it was going on the court. You know, it really humanizes her and shows her having to go through all that. It was really well received that series. But as it's progressed, one of the ones he did recently was about those Menendez brothers who murdered their parents, but there's a whole sort of counter thing that they were being abused, and it's very but they're in prison and they were sort of distraught and all people around the many of their family members who believe that they they were being abused and that th this was a sort of form of self defence or whatever it is, really couldn't stand him for the way he'd he portrayed it. And he didn't care remotely. And he was quite obviously, every time we went on the record, he didn't care. And I will say that the journey of hit from him for doing things much more like people vs. OJ to much less defensible stuff. Um we actually ended up doing do you remember we covered it. We did it three bonus episodes sitting on our three of them. His arc is quite big. It's suddenly not over. We'll probably have to go back and do a fourth. But there are three bonus episodes sitting on our archive about about that because I think that's been such a journey for him and it's really he's really gone over to the dark side. But the problem is he's so talented that if he tells your story then a lot of people will watch it. Certainly if he said, Oh um b Marina I,'m gonna do your life story, you would be like this is a nightmare because you know it's gonna be the worst thing in the world. And you know you're gonna have no control over it at all. No, he's not certainly not going to come to me about my life story. I mean that's the last thing you'd want to do. You never know.. It really gets in the way Although if he he if he hears this. But he doesn't want to as we said, they don't want to go to the the people who are involved because it gets in the way of their much clearer vision as to what actually happened. So anyway, I think that that's sort of one to watch maybe she'll see Yeah, but certainly the person I'm more interested in is the baby reindeer. Well we'll keep an eye on that one because that's continuing to go through the courts. Yeah. Um I don't think you'll ever get a day in court 'cause that will be settled, but Yeah. then somebody will become a millionaire. That would be an interesting story as well. I mean it really would there's a there's a documentary. I mean Netflix probably won't make it. Actually they probably would that's the way our culture's going. Netflix will say either you could be twenty million or you can have fifteen million plus your own documentary about how you spend that fifteen million. But we are seeing more and more of it I think in the end in can with all of these things because real life or supposed real life has become this absolute runaway genre and it's regarded just by saying this is a true story or this is based on a true story gives you a massive viewership bump just by claiming that. Yeah, I'd like to see what Daryl Hannah does next, certainly, and we wish her very, very, very well and I I hope she can get her story amplified Yes, I want to recommend the the three-part documentary on channel four about Tony Blair, which I thought was fascinating. Um really, really interesting. Tony Blair talks. You don't always get as much as you want out of him. Alistair Campbell talks. Almost everyone involved talks. Bill Clinton talks. They got really, really good access to people. Um Jeremy Corbyn talks about and it's all you know it's it's kind of the rise of Tony Blair, then Iraq, and then you know the um uh post Iraq. But it's really beautifully made, made by seventy two uh films David Glover and his team. And it's just one of those things again that doesn't hammer home what you should think. It asks questions, it sh puts the camera in people's faces, it lets them answer at length and lets you make your own mind up about what you think and is which I've found incredibly refreshing. I know, right? Could it catch on again, please? Wow, but also by someone agreeing to do a documentary made by someone else they didn't have creative control over. Could that catch on? How about