The Future of Tech and Nostalgia

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now fan mail is one of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way And the understanding that nothing may come back. Certainly in our day you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. And maybe three months later a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly proformer, you know that you know Howard's never really looked at. Steve Martin used to have a performer sort of thing, which we just leave blanks, like insert, like small detail to make a joke about how completely impersonal his personal reply to you was, And it's just like a standard thing. Ipersonal is interest, and that's why we'reking this because Octopus Energy, you always can reply to their emails. and not only can you reply to them, they will go to the same small group of people who always deal with you. That's like unbelievable. 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P participating McDal's for un limited time whilew suppies last Allights reserve twenty six McDonal's, FF Wor Cup twenty six. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Enterainment with me, Marina Hi. I'm me, Richard Osman. Hello, everyone. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you?' not too bad. It's been too hot. I like it. I know that ye. but this hot. But yeah, no, you're right. There were moments when even I was well ting. Try being six foot seven in this heat. I'd love to. I'd love ton't. Yes I. You are much nearer the sun It is much, much hotter, I promise that. We sort of got a summer special this week, funnily enough. Yeah. We're going to talk about Love Island becoming literally the biggest show in the entire world. how that happened and where it leads us. Yes. we're also going to talk about Kylie Jenner is advertising Meta's new smmart glasses. We're going to talk about smart glasses. also the kind of move towards celebrities means for Silicon Valley and celebrities. Okay. Let's get to Love Island. Y. Let's journey to Love Island, which is now an enormal hit. In the US, it's the biggest show on US TV. generates kind of huge stars like lots of reality shows. We're going to talk about reality shows and how I think reality stars have have a much sort of bigger cultural cache now than movie stars Now, in the past twenty four hours, there've been a couple of stories about Love Island contestants. One's been removed from the UK version and one from the US version of the show. But for Thursday's Q and A episode, I can see we've had questions about TV participant vetting. So why do we leave those aspects of contestant screening until then And today we're talking about it as a sort of broader cultural phenomenon So the origin story of Love Island is a fascinating one. So the last three seasons, in fact, moved to Peacock in the States and a new host Arianna Maddx, who's also worth talking about because she's She's an interesting one. and three seasons ago started really, really, really climbing the ratings. Last season almost doubled its audience. this season has almost doubled it again. it's Uber massive, it's beyond massive, it's absolutely huge. I mean it's a phenomenon. It's making an insane amount of money. A lot of that money going into the UK, which is nice because it's a UK format, an ITV format But to speak to your point about ordinary people becoming celebrities, and that be more interesting to people than film stars and what have you Of course, loveove Is then started two thousand five as celebrity love islands in the UK. in the UK watchatch that series Whenever you have a successful regular show The thing you do is you say, Ohh why don't we do a celebrity version of this? And you know that's a very familiar path to tread In the case of celebrity Love Island, they did two seasons of it. It was sort of an attempt to take on Big Brother. It sort of work, sort of didn't work. you know got a lot of column inches back when columns were measured in inches, but it didn't really take off And ten years later, they said, I think it was Angela Jane that E four said, Well, why don't we bring back celebrity loveove Iland but without the celebrities. Yeah. whyy don't we make it ordinary people? And from that moment this franchise was born. and you know it's been for a few dips, but it's Currently, it's never ever been bigger. They ditch celebrities, they put ordinary people in there and more than any other show pretty much, they turn them into characters and celebrities incredibly quickly.ople come in with sort of twenty K follllow accounts. they leave with a million plus they get all. You know, sponsorship, bananzas, all of these sorts of things. It's like being a goalkeeper for Cape Verdie I was about to say, I mean, everybody wants to sign him. That's the history of the thing. I' to say it was big in the UK as Love Island then moved over to the States, quuiet start, but it now has become definitively the biggest show in the world, so I think it's definitely worth us talking about it and talking about what this reverse pivot of going from a celebrity show into a regular show, why that made it the biggest show in the world. An interesting sidebar traitors in the US, which as you know, is celebrity based In the sense that they are all because as we've talked about on the podcast before Reality TV is now a sort of professional class within entertainment and people pop from show to show and if you've you know, one big brother, you might get onto Tritors or whatever it is. But tr traitors now in the States is going to do a regular version. You know in the same way in the UK, we went from a regular version to a celeb version. in America, they're going from a celeb version to a regular version. That's when you know you've really made it. When your format is big enough and strong enough you can put ordinary people in it. So talk to me about Love Island and how it sort of became this phenomenon It's hard to say how it becomes a phenomenon because it's a regular tev and And it became a phenal because people kept believing in it. And you so the team behind it, it's quite hard to work out exactly who came up with Love Island because really it's sort of just putting couples in a villa and letting them swap. And back in two thousand five, there were a billion of those formats. every single format was six on the beach, sixix with my ex, just a load of things where you know shifting sands But this is one, firstirstly it was owned by ITV stududios people like Rachel Arnold and the Tauka Snackers who are still around now making great shows They were there. so it had brilliant people behind it very early on. It obviously had the money of an ITV stududios behind it, very early on and a channel as well And it had a headwind, and then they just started making it really, really well And you know we often say, oh my God, what a great great idea. That was so obviously a big hit, but usually with things like traitors race across the world, love Island The ideas themselves are fairly prosaic and fairly universal They just made incredibly well and that's what ITV have done. So they were doing that, doing what we would have done twenty five years ago, I making a really good television show as well as we possibly could. But I think the key was at the same time, the culture was changing and what we thought of as celebrity was changing. Yeah, I don't think people want Appetites first of all, the character types I think have changed in all of these shows is that we used to watch you it' right back in those you know twenty years ago, like you talkking about, we watched reality TV for the train wrecks. And it was quite simplistic for messes and for things like that People in reality TV are now seen as heroes, which is very a definite shift Like all of these formats, it's got these kind of terrible stories and tragedies in its kind of long history, people who aren't able to deal with the fame it brings But then I suppose that's like movie history or any type of. And you know we have a hope over years in this podcast. We've spoen quite a lot about those things and we always will do. We know we married at first sight recently. So I think justust on this occasion, we can concentrate on something else which is there is something extraordinary about these forma. Diff differentnt kind of fame and a different kind of audence. But fame in any of its iterations Yeah It brings all sorts of issues and difficulties and problems, that's for sure There's another huge show that's just went absolutely nuts for a particular reason, which is in the U.S called Summer House. Have you seen this thing? It's Bph I've done it. you you can watch it here and it's essentially some Pople hot people go to the Hamptons and share a house, whatever But there was a love triangle in it. someomeone found out that her best friend and the guy she had a sort of situationship with was going behind her back. Kiara. I mean, it's become so massive. It blew up beyond all belief. I saw this guy saying reality TV producers saying, Oh Kara's this generation stududio Roberts There were these amazing shots of her finding out about it, and then there were these pictures of her like crouched down outide hilariously outside the Hermes shop in Manhattan on the pavement. and like a passer by helping her when she sort of found out about it It's so all out there. You're involved in all their dramas all the time And so they have these huge social moments. She now by the way, has got a million followers. She's going on dancing with the stars. She is presenting Love Island After Sun, that is absolute gold dust. And she's obviously got masses of red carpet and sort of sponsored things like that. I think that what people want now and I'll contr later we'll come to why I think this is so why movie stars in a way are out of step with our kind of cultural dynamics. What they want is permanent access. Y. They want permanent drama They want permanent canda, they want retail opportunities. All of these things you know, Br bring it they want imperfection And reality TV is still about in all of these formats, even though it's about revealing who you are. And it's impossible when you're in these kind of long term formats, particularly something like you can't really hide yourself in the loveove Island fil. I know, And this is a sticking point where lots of people they go, o reality TV isn't real. and you know you can edit people to look weird and people play up to the cameras What you're saying is right, long form stuff, which love Island is big brother is, you cannot hide yourself. You can't edit yourself. You can't edit yourself. And you you at home might be going, Ohh yeah, but I can see through that. You think, yes everyone can see through it. And that's what character is. they're not being authentic. I've got reality stars who are exposed in these long formats and people do feel they're more real than anything else You've got influencers, a class of people which people are also obsessed with, but sort of actually detest and think they're lying to them, even though they are obsessed with them. So it's a kind of complicated relationship, but they do think that they're lying to them and that they're managing And then you've got very remote movie stars who we'll come to that are not these type of celebrities at all. and they don't respond in real time to anything. Well there are this is the interesting thing I think, and this is why reality TV is so powerful is there are two types of reaction you can have to somebody on screen. So that person on screen is giving you a version of themselves and you have an opinion on that. And what you're either saying is, I love that person. they're so authentic. Even though they're messy or they're difficult or you know, they cause in trouble, they are authentic, or I don't believe that person is being a real Yeah Both of those things make for amazing television, they make for judgment. It's like someone started at work and you immediately start talking about them go, well what do we think of X? It's that, but fair. everybody in America. They can all talk about these people and they go, arere they real or are they not real? And it doesn't matter either way because there is there's a built in reaction. both by the end, they do feel that they are real because they do understand that the format will expose and that eventually But people can still be fake. People can still be fake. Yes. You can be a fake person. at least they're really real fake. But that's exactly it. Everyone's being real. Some people are fakes, but they're real fakes. Yeah. Yeah no one's acting up for the cameras because you cannot do the You know what? the camera is just You cannot have that relationship. it really you will always blink first if you're looking into a camera. I agree. Whereas movie stars say They tend to be first of all, they tend to be very guarded. and the way they deliver what they do is I think now completely out of kilter with the dynamics of what we expect in the modern world. They are the opposite of always on. This thing that they do takes a very long time to create. The creation of it happens away and you don't see it, and then you are presented with this sort of stone tableat. And by the way, traditionally has had a prestige and has a procedge in the lifetime of the people who are in these films. and so they still act as if there is a procedge, which I'm sad to say has long gone. Yes, it's definitely, definitely degraded. And there are so many fewer sort of fewer of those types of stars for this reason, that the market is shifting But nothing in their world happens in real time. If you look at these reality shows, you look at like that girl in suummer house, if you look Love Island, people can communicate with these people in real time. Reality stars, your cultural footprint is immediate. You can message them. can about the dramas that we can see happening, There are these social media moments happening all the time where people maybe find out what's in the series behind people's backs So they have a much closer relationship with their fans and they are always on, they're constantly monetizing. They have a kind of direct consumer relationship. The relationship with the audience is very, very different. bothoth as a way of selling things because they almost all end up with sponsorships or in many cases come in to Love Island because they want that. if you look at someone like Moll May Hge or whatever, she quite obviously She targeted the show because she wanted to become a certain type of person and it has made her that type of person. And by the way, no judgment on that. That's the culture we li in. that's what, you know I would be doing if I was in my mid twenties. just you find your route through. But movie stars, they don't particularly open movies anymore. People are going for the IP.'re you know There's certain people like Zenda or whatever people will want to go and see. But there are many, many fewer. Jacob Laudi, It was really interesting the other weekend, not the weekend we've just had the one before I was talking to a fifteen year old girl about all her cultural taste, and she really I was really grateful time she spent a lot of time talking to me about it and I wasm talking to a bit about the pin ups for want of a better term. And you know she was like, yeah, yeah, know, Jacob L Ldy, all of those, but she said, one of the things she said was, there's a feeling that we need more guys, that there aren't guys. Yeah. And I said, that's so interesting, but why has the market not provided? Because and I think it's really interesting. If you look at music, music is dominated by solo women Reality television is a female led medium. books. And now all the biggestslling authors in the world are women currently. She said that just like There's not enough guys. They don't have enough pin ups and I said that's so weird that there aren't People sort of coming through and you know there was absolutely no shortage of loads of movie stars, loads of TV stars, but the women dominate all these things. Yeah, it can't all be Harry Styles. No. But reality TV is completely female dominated. they are the power. And funny enough, when this is a medium I know absolutely next to nothing about, but I do know this about it It's like opera. This is an art form in which women wield all the power. We don't care about men in reality TV in lots of these shows. stooges a lot of the time aren't? They're like pantemime idiots or they're a plot device. know in the real Housewives, they just sort of exist around the edge of it. And actually, when that guy was saying about this Gal Kiara from Summer House Oh, she's this generation stududio Roberts. That's what in all of their imperfection, but they're also very ambitious women in reality television. and all of these things or what make them compelling as stars in a way. And also the ambitious thing because it works the other way around in a way is if you are an ambitious women in your early to mid twenties and you do have ideas and you do want to be in the middle of the conversation. this is where you go Yeah back yourself. Yeah. All these women back themselves. this is Well funny enough, Arianna Maddox, who's been the host for the last three seasons when you look into her story, she wanted to be a Broadway performer you know, so she trained and did, you know, you know, went went to theater school and you know not from a particularly rich background, certainly not from a connected background moves to New York to try and get work in the theatre in the way that one would have done thirty years ago, forty years ago, fifty years ago. hundred even yeah. Yeah. And then moves to L.A to try and be an actor. She is a bartender so goes to be a bartender at the bar owned by Lisa Vanderpump from Vander Pump Rules, which is an enormous Bravo show in the States. And did eleven seasons of that was much loved and her dream of playing on Broadway, came true because' cast as Roxy Heart in Chicago, because he's a big star, but also is amazing. I mean she was incredible on it somethingomething she would not have been able to do with her lack of connection. She's not NPo baby or anything like that. So she she found a route through one of these shows to do the thing that she wanted to do. Then she went on dancing with the stars, came third. now she's hosting this and the whole thing is massively taken off. I mean, she's again, she has a brilliantly messy personal life as well because he was he was with Tom Sanderval and which is there's so much to unpack. want They want ambition and massive imperfection. But also she's talented. Yeah, you know, and yes. it's quite hard if you are talented to make it in this world, certainly if you have no connections. it is difficult to do that. And so when we keep saying, these these people you know keep getting famous I tell who else is getting famous? talented people.. But this is the route through that they are taking because they can't ask their mum or their dad for a job So, you know, they'll do this instead Well, there's a famous quote about writing, which is writing's easy. you just open a vein and bleed. but that' sort that's said by someone like Red Smith or Hemingway or whatever and it's a sort of I also thought it was Joandidian, but it's attributed to various different people, but I think whoever said it, it would definitely be from the prestige category. But that idea that among certain types of writers, you know you just lay your soul on the paper and then it's a prestige thing Whereas people who do it in this format, know there's nothing in reality that's remotely prestigious I don't I think there's a sort of fool snobberies There's something about exposing yourself And being very, very open that is sneered at still in this maybe by people who don't understand got think Be it's not saered at by the audience at all. No. And also the audiences are sometimes sneered at by that group of people as well because they go, o can't you see X, Y and Z? And the thing you can tell about a reality TV audience is yes they can see X,Y, andZ. Al also they're seeing a bunch of things that you don't see And sometimes you get years ago and like Big Bother people would say, Oh, I hate all of them. And you go, if you look through those sixteen people and there's no one you find a human connection with, it is on you. Yes. That is on. The beauty of these shows is we find the person who we identify with. We find the person in whom we find some heroic characteristics. We find the person that we want to get their comeuance And usually in reality TV, if not in life thoseose are the things that happen. But even viewers Stest last time after the first episode, a lot of people were like, Ohh, I don't know whether this is going to work because they couldn't allow themselves to commit. It's like, don't worry, this will work And it was only towards the end when they thought, o, this is Alan C Chandel being a traroitor. this is very funy that they felt that they were coming into the format and that they you know, they could maybe get another chart. maybe I watched episode two. I mean it genuinely has the moral nuance and sophistication of a nineteenth century novel.. I mean, an audience is really, really capable of keeping four or five things in the head at the same time when they watched these shows and there was drama, drama, drama. It was like, you know It's like something that comes out in a periodical once a week, except it comes out every day and there's cliffhangers. It's genuine and incredible form of television. We talked in previous times about the exploitation of people who are on these shows and that's definitely an issue. But in terms television and in terms of the opportunity it provides people who are on it kind of unrivaled. It's like a bullet train through culture. I agree and it's but the always on nature of it isn't just the format a bit like what we wereking about when we were talking about sport and how people are starting to consume football as just one example differently, which is that instead of these kind of ninety minute things that happen R relatively infrequently, you've got all of this plot line and social activity and everything happening all around it. What like There's a whole ecosystem of stuff around it that means that if you're really into one of these shows, you can sort of get new information and new real time drama about it every single day. Yeah And it has a lot in common with sport in that if you love sport, you can absolutely immerse yourself in that life You will never run out of things to talk about. you will never run out of new storylines, you will never run out of new characters. There will always be a new season. And it's the same with reality TV. It has a huge amount in common with sport that you know there are definitely rules, but actually it's slightly out of your control. You never quite know what's going to happen. it's fan service, it's audience service Reording artists have realized that they can't disappear for five years and then come back with an album and everyone will still be there. We've talked about this before People dropping things all the time and just this constant sort of just remaining part of the culture for fear of it moving on beyond you. So your point about movie stars, I think is interesting. I often feel in my position. so you know I have a profile, I do TV shows, I've got the books and this sort of the other. And I understand absolutely what I'm constantly being asked to do make myself constantly publicly available to promote those things. and not to sort of go on a show and say you must read my book, but to constantly be pres in the culture to show who I am to show. I good having a podcast might so. But I get to talk about other things not myself on the switch, which is what I like. So you're there. ye The idea It makes me so tired when I see the graft involved. Oh my gosh. know and I could see people in the twenties, it's amazing. Of course you constantly have a camera pointed at yourself and you can do stuff. I really, really get it. But there comes a point. if you're a movie star, if you're a TV presenter or an you actor or a singer of an older generation, we're just saying't I just don't have the energy to turn myself into the product. I really, really don't. And we have enough track left that I can write my books and that's the product and that's enough. and you know and I'm happy with that. But what everybody would really, really like is for me to be the product and the books to be the thing that you can buy because you like that product. And that I cannot get on board with, but this new generation and these new generation of TV shows, that is absolutely the way around that it is and I really get it. and I think it brings some really interesting things into our culture. I think it brings some really interesting people into our culture who'd have had the door shut in their face before now. And so you know Those are big conclusions to take from a reality dating show. but it's so enormous and it's so enormous for our reason, which is our culture has absolutely changed underneath us from two thousand five and Celebrity Love Island with Jane Middlemiss to you know, twenty, twenty six and this Behemoth. Yes. and it's above all, it is what audiences want. Yeah. And it's good And yes, they're giving audiences what they want. Yeah people I've said this before, but so many writers peoplee who write comedy or fiction are obsessed with reality shows because Eventually, as you say, you point the camera and eventually people start making reveal themselves, but they also take extraordinary decisions in the moment and their impulses are so interesting to watch so many like real prestige writers are obsessed with these typpe of is because it reveals character and that's' shortcut to seeing people be put in extremist situations and then having to make a choice. I would go so far as to say if you love Middle March, then you're love below deck. becausecause it's the same stuff. Yeah, you know. But yeah, in conclusion, it is the biggest show in the world. and while there are issues with that, I think it's worth sometimes going, Do know, this is actually not bad. There is something quite interesting about this. and there is an audience that's being supererved and an audience that really, really engages and understands what it is that they're watching in a way that if you don't watch You don't understand Okay, after the break, we are going to be discussing Kylie Jenner's collaboration with Silicon Valley Overlords meta for their smart glasses. Talk about always on S youMO This episode is brought to you by the Lloyds five K house deposit. Lloyds are offering a five K house deposit which was last seen in nineteen ninety six. What are your entertainment memories of the nineteen nineties? I feel guilty talking about the nineteen nineties because you look back and it was such a golden era. We'd never had it so good. we didn't even realize because we were young and we just thought we were entitled to it. We absolutely took it for granted pop was absolutely in its pump, Oasis planing to a quarter of a million people you had blices. I'm so sorry.ice girls, amazing movies at the cinema, train spotting. I mean it felt a time of absolute optimism. but at the time, you just assumed that was the way that A very w type of optimism Yeah. And part of the optimism of course, is that mortgages were more affordable. and that is what Lloyds is dealing with right now Last seen in nineteen ninety six, Lloyds are now offering five K deposit mortgages to first time buyers. Search five K first time buuyer. nineteen ninety six average first time buyer deposits based on ONS data, sububject to status, your home may be repossessed if you don't keep up repayments. Conditions apply Hi, this is Garalinica from Goldhangers, The restest is foootball. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than one hundred sixty countries and with over forty currencies mostost transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee, and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the WS app today. Be smart Get wise, Tas and Ts apply Heat up your fourourth of July at the Home Depot with our wide variety of grills under three hundred dollars and make every gathering one to remember Give your outdoor space a glow up. Whatever your budget is, with savings on seasonal plants starting at five dollars. With the grill fired up and your backyard set to perfection, you'll be able to invite friends and family over to kick off the party. Start celebrating with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Prices may vary stor, Sus will P Iice see Home Depot com priceesash for details Welcome back, everybody. Now before we talk about smart Glasses. our bonus episode this week, not just for members, but for everyone. I'm doing a series called The World Cup of I've done these many times before in different formats back when Twitter was at its height. The first one we're doing is the World Cup of US sitcoms I've got Joh Robins and Misy Adam in the studio I am dying to hear this. And we're going through more in common our lovely polling friends have the British public we're to out what the favorite US sitcom of all time is but we're going to chat about our favorites as well and little stories about the sitcoms. So we're doing a whole series of those, but the first one, the World Cup of US. sitcoms will be out this Wednesday for everybody and then for members after that. But it's really good fun. and we thought it was going to be a short recording And we did a whole bunch of them and we were arguing so much about everything in a nice way. We really, really enjoyed it. So I hope you enjoy that Talking of enjoyment, I remember a while back when Google bought out that Google glasses and was like, this is the worst thing that's ever going to happen. And then I was delighted because they absolutely failed. No one bought them. They were an absolute nightmare and you thought, good that's gone away. It has not gone away quite the opposite. Yeah, Smart gllasses as a new collaboration, meta smmart glasses and we suppose we're going to talk what it means for Both Silicon Valley and celebrities who have actually stayed quite separate interestingly in terms of promotional activity, but M have got a deal with Rayan and they've had these glasses out for a while different ones, but and you'll probably have noticed Mark Zuckerberg has been or has taken to the stage various times wearing them. We'll get to that in. I mean if he's refusing to put them on that would be bad. But Kylie Jenner is the new face of their new glasses. There's ones called Starfire, they cost about three or four hundred dollars Her voice is the AI assistant She's been very hands on blah, blah, blah, the things celebrities say when they do a blnd collaboration To me, it' quite interesting because Silicon Valley, first of all, is interesting to me on the marketing. They don't sell things in this way Think of what everyone has sort all of those companies, all of those tech overlaords have sort of copied Steve Jobs, which is, you know you walk on stage and you tell people about a new piece of hardware, whichich I suppose is fine if it's like all software, I guess, or if it's a sort of it's some kind of desktop thing or a hardware thing or whatever, or even meta's various other products, but the sort of corporate narcissism of Mark Zuckerberg, who would walk on stage wearing these glasses is like Yeah, like your Eth's most malevolent duib. No one's gonna to buy anything off you. You can't disrupt everything, mate, okay? Here's how you actually sell things, okay? You get really hot people to take sexy photos, aspirational people, and then people want to buy the things. So if you have a look at the pictures of Karie Denna leaning into the camera in her smart glasses, it's like All right, you know, whereere Zuckerberg for a long time I think thought he could just walk on a stage wearing these things. I think Jimmy Kimmel just described Zuckerberg as now dressing like a Chechen Molly dealer. know, he walks onto the stage Chechen Molly dealer h that Yeah. Yeah. But they now have a vice president of fashion matter. So they did this whole thing totally different. You know what? I literally never heard back Yeah When I applied for that Could they just acknowledge honestly CV. Just say you've had it. Be otherwise maybe it went to junk. Yeah, canan I just check that you received it, yeah, But I mean, don't as you know, I don't like say wearables, In this case, these are accessories that they're trying to sell. and this is how you sell accessories And it's interesting that celebrities have actually mostly stayed away from tech Kie Jenner, obviously these people are completely plugged into the platforms. they don't exist really without these platforms But I remember there was a point where Kylie Jenner said something like, Oh was anyone else not really feeling the new Snapchat design? and it wiped a billion off a company Oh that was a while back, okay, then't wor was recovered. But when you think about something like fashion or jewelry, think of how many celebrities deals and campaigns and whatever. And actually speaking about movie stars before the break, that is actually one way for those people to stay always on. They're present because they are viewable in advertising campaigns. mean you look at Beckham at the World Cup and he's getting more minutes than any of the players. Unbelievable Absolutely extraordinary. His ability to sell '. that's the thing about the Kardashian Jenn is that there's nothing they won't sell. Celebrities have been very wary about doing things with Silicon Valle. If you look at the much more kind of typical Silicon Valley reaction I think celebrities slightly feel that this thing might destroy the. Mvie stars they're? do. And they're probably right. Scarlet Hanson obviously had a huge kind of blow up about her voice being used as an AI assistant. Witherspoon recently who has a sort of lifestyle portal and recently said, Oh women, we need to understand AI. all of this, she got a massive backlash. It wasn't even paid for, by the way So celebrities are very aware of it, but the Kardashian jeners will sell absolutely anything. I'm amazed. they don't have defense contracts. ammazed. They will sell anything. Any backlash is water off a duck's back when they draw their power from it, they just don't care. So rather like Becca, there are certain people who just don't once you've promoted a sort of emirate or whatever, you don't obviously mind What happened with Instagram is that that was only made into, which is a metaprouct, obviously. That was only made into a thing because fashion and celebrities thought, oh, hang on a second. I can control images of myself, I can release things. and that allowed people to be always on in a different way. So celebrities and movie stars and what have you made Instagram a thing and they're now realising I think they have to do these with glasses. Well, that's the interesting thing about it because Google Glass launched and it tech pl entirely. It looked like a tech playate, as you say, they were just sort of worn by the tech bros and it disappeared entirely. What Meta did very, very early on is while on one hand thinking about what the smart glasses can do. And by the way, we should talk about what smart glasses do, which me you can ye, okay good. But they teamed up immediately they Esalore Luxotica, which is one of those big brands that essentially owns everything that you've ever heard of. And they are the owners of Rayan So they actually they went to the Makers of Ray ban and said, no, we're going to make a fashion item all of the tech inside that fashion item, but it's going to be fashion first and, you know, we're constantly told that tech stocks, you know, trade, you know, ten times more than any other stock Tech has suddenly realized that actually fashion stocks are the ones that really trade above everything. So they been' only realized to sell it in a fashion way as well D they're doing a deal with was very bad if Mar Z is going to wander out. I don't want to buy anything off of him. So so Kinie Jenner, I think interestingly, I think these were already a hit before she signed up with them. You know, they sold a million in a year. they reckon they' sold a three million year. People are actually using them and wearing them. And it got to the point I think, where she was able to say, o, okay, this is a They didn't look fashion. I'm sorry. I get that they were made by Ray Ban and whatever, but they didn't look fashion. Now the ones she's done f they look fast. Yeah. I mean, listen, I have so much more to say about this, but you know, since I' got turned down for the VP job ater. Yeah yeah, I say snapp are bring out some glasses, but they again are they Stven M have glasses called snap. Well, that's a terrible idea. Yeah maybe yeah, snap glasses. Steven Mcel iss going to do the campaign in Kaiger, but they've got loads of celebrities doing those This is becoming a different thing. And yet they are, arere they not Richard? L one of the darkest iterations of surveillance capitalism. They might be the worst thing in the world, I think. So They' literally perverfect glasses. So they're perfect glasses for sure. though it's weird. they didn't go with that name So you they are Essentially glasses which are a camera. which have speakers as well, which have recording capability, both audio and visual. So you can walk around essentially either filming what is right in front of you or li streaming what is in front of you. I mean, particularly live streaming, that's without consent. You can do all of those things New ones have AI capabilities. so whenever you're looking around, it can be giving you information about what's around you. They say, o, you can find out what sort of tree is next to you. And many of the firms have plans to integrate facial recognition into these systems. If anyone ever were to do that, there was two Har the students in twenty twenty four who they did a viral demonstration with Rayban metetalasses. They combined that with facial recognition software Some of the companies say they're not going to put in, but we know they would eventually some of them. and also public databases. And they could identify strangers on the street in real time. They surfaced names, addresses and phone numbers within seconds. The experiment was dubbed I X ray. and it's sparked widespread alarm, That was a year and a half ago and that alarm seems to have dispersed a little bit. It'd be handy though, when you can't remember someone's name That actually is handy. And it will get rid of the embarrassment I see almost on a daily basis. of if I'm walking down the street and someone recognizes me but isn't sure where they know they know my face so assume I'm someone from work And so they'll give me like a really sort of sight embarrassed nod It will solve that for them So go, oh, that's that guy from. able to run from all the hits. Yeah, whichever show I do. And in the same way that people will unblock phones for you, you know you can just house straight and someone will unblock phones. Someone will disable the recording light for you for like a hundred dollars or something. Yes. So they have a little recording. It's supposed to show that m have thought of all this. So they've got a tiny, tiny light which is on when someone's recording. you can have it can It's like the easiest thing in the world. And we do recognise that meta are above everything a data company an information company. So while they say, o no, we will have pretty strong safeguards in place when these are being used. let me tell you, I'm aware that all of our previous products, we said that and it hasn't really paid off. But these ones, you're going to be absolutely fine. So you're going to be walking around the street where everyone is going to be wearing ray bands they arere all filming you at all times. they can capture what you're saying. There'll be an AI display telling them who you are. All of that stuff is possible all of that stuff is Probable And now they're being advertised by the most beautiful people on the planet and built by a company with an almost endless reserve money. That's scary, right? Yeah, I do. And I think it is I would you know, if you were advising people, as I say, the Kardashian journers, they literally don't care hardly what they advertise. but a lot of other people would think Do I really want to be associated with these things that The law is so far behind, as always, the law is so far behind being able to keep up with this. How do you consent? You know they are complete, we know that they are call them creep magnets. They're pervert glasses. You can see pickup artists filming all the time. and then just immediately posting. And you haven't obtained people's consent. There' stories about people who have fled abusive relationships and then it's quite clear as they're being filmed at work because lots of people just do like, well, someone we might talk about, Michael Barrrymore bizarrely. Y, Barryore meet Zuckerberg. M Michael Barrymore, if you don't know who he was, our younger audience, Michael Barrymore was a massive light entertainment presence on British television for a long time. He hosted loads and loads of the big shows. He was He was the biggest name M, he was the biggest, you know he was Ant plus deeck. Yeah. He came out as gay relatively late on in his career. and then There was this huge scandal where somebody was found dead in his pool after a party and that person, a man had been sexually assaulted. It was not clear what happened. It's never been fully clear what has happened. Michael Barra was never charged with any offence, but he effectively fell completely from grrace in that moment. Yeah, he's someone who actually was cancelled. People played really was. Yeah yeah. However, you hear a lot about, o, Nigel Farageer' got so many followers on TiTok. he's got one point five million Michael Barrymore has four point four millionillion.. He's been rep posted by people like Sabrina Carpenter. and what he does is he just basically sort of wears glasses like this and he goes out to the shops and buys munchies and things like that and chats and chats and he puts it on TikTok and he has got a huge f for it. He probably earns at least a quarter of a million a year from it. And it's a very, very big thing. But again, people were saying, well, hang on a second. if you're recording people in whatever, the supermarket.. None of these people have really consented. people There have been stories. I'm not saying that this is true of the people who he has filmed, but there have been stories of people who've fled abusive relationships or whatever And then if you put it on a sort of mass viewership platform where it gets masses of hits and you think, o okay, that person works in the AzDor wherever, then you are effectively docing people. Yeah. So this week fromally AzDor, the shop workers union came out and said, you can't do this. They're talking directly to Barimel because it's so high profile and he was filming in shops And by the way, no one who's in those videos has personally complained but they raised it with the stor just to say, look By the way this stuff is going out and I don't know who's in the background and no one ass signed a release form. If any if you film anyone in a shop and regular TV, they have to sign a release form. say That's fine. And by the way, of course ninety nine percent of people are very happy with that. But if you are going around, he's sort of an interesting test case, Michael Bargh says he's say four point four million followers and his whole stick is he will just go around talking to people and put those interactions out. But There's something so different even I mean, we know that the hardware to bring it even back to the glasses, there is something so different Even between holding a phone up so people know sort of they're being filmed and filming with glasses where people don't really know they're being filmed or don't understand it in the same way. And by the way, I'm sure that he is telling people that he's doing that, but it would be very easy to do without doing that. By the way, so many people don't tell people and you can see on Tikok their emotionss the footage it ye The hardware is changing people's behaviour in another even darker way than the last bit the last bit. The camera quality is now amazing. The audio quality is now amazing. It it would have passed for broadcast quality. know's just it's incredible what you can do. There are platforms who are ready to receive this instantly. everyvery single time a video goes viral is that's marketing. for the glasses because you know you know how it's been filmed. and the whole thing now becomes an enormous tech snowball where it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger ander the law is miles away from catch miles away. How can you you know there there are consumer protection lawsuits, I think, pending in the U.S because people can see where it's going, but it's very slow. You can't And also when you got that much money, who cares? Yeah. I mean, you know that's the point, I mean, you know, it's like they you know, trying to sue them for stealing the copyright of every book ever written. Well they don't find weightedulous amounts. They get fine sort of fifty million dollars, which is like one second's profit. Yeah I do genuinely think these things are insane. I don't know what one does about that. I don't know what I would do if I were in government about it. I don't know if it's a cat that's already out of the bag There are loads and loads of reasons why these things are great byy the way, what a lovely way to capture your child's birthday party. They have live translation in these things. There are incredible things about them. As someone visually impaired, they could genuinely be transformative when you put AI in that and everything can become clearer and sharper and you can explain what something is to me Absolutely transformational All those things said, there will be some terrible things that happen because of these. There will be some awful consequences because of these. and I would bet any money that no one pays for those consequences. No. And as always, and the other thing is, as we often say with the platforms, you work for them for free. Yeah. You pay to work for them for free. So these because all of these things are training meta's AI All of this stuff is being fed back And it's training metatters AI in these kind of human interactions, the things that AI is less good at You are working for the company and you are training them. everything that you film with these classes, all of that, peopleople basically work for these companies now. They spend so many hours a day for these companies that effectively, you spend six hours a day working for free for a tech company. And then That is actually your real job in the economy. You have this other thing that you think is to do with it pays you some money and how you pay your rent, but actually what you really do is you work for free down these people's content mines. Yeah And a lot of those people are the same utter dullards who tell you that the government's trying to track you all the time. And so you don't understand how the world works. You go, You're wearing their glasses, man in case people feel anxious about this, and I think sometimes when you think about technology and you think about all of these things, know it is quite anxiety inducing. The way I always try and think about these things You know I love nostalgia. So you look back at the nineteen fifties and there's lots of things on Facebook. you go, Ohh my God, look at that street and the cars and we left our doors open yada,ad. There's very, very monetizable accounts on Facebook that do that all the time. If you think of today as the olden days, I always find that's a really nice perspective to have. If you look back and go I it this literally is the first time that people were like wearing glasses. It's like the first time one of the unions just said, you shouldn't really wear these glasses in our shop. Can you I mean it's crazy how unsophisticated were back then I heard a podcast and they were talking about love Island. and it's just a thing that people would sit and Like they would sit down in front of a screen and they would watch that. So I always think when you walk down the street, look at the fonts on the signs, look at the products in the shop and look at the wrappers of chocolate bars and imagine in forty years time how insanely old fashioned That's going to look. and sometimes I think that's quite a nice way to get rid of No anxiety. I'm not sure that Does that helped you? No, I think know, people were right to be sort of suspicious of the robber barons and things like that. O, of course they were. Yeah. But it turns out there's nothing they could have done about it So that's where our anxiety comes from. It comes from our absolute inability to do anything They did eventually break up some of the you, these companies are so much bigger than something like Stard oil, which was dealt with. I think there are no, I think they should definitely try and break up some of these. Oh, I'm not saying don't do that. I'm just saying that if you arealking down the st that we can If if you're walking down the street, listening to this and you are not able to you know be part of a class action lawsuit then one thing you can do is at least go O day this will all be seeP your photographs on whatever Facebook is at that point. Right Proably be like an artificial dinosaur living in your house Any recommendations? I have got a recommendation. It's only just out and you'll be reading stories from it all week I should think, and beyond, it's called Regime Change. It's the book about the Trump presidency by Maggie Habman and Jonathan St. I look forward to that It's really amazing. I'm sort of in two mind somehow about how these books work. When you are reporters. they're both very, very kind of good reporters. L you don't necessarily produce not all of this is produced for your the outlet you work for all the time and some of it is kept for the book. But lots of it needs to be written about in a way that I suppose it just works particularly well in long form And as a reminder of You know, we become so desensitized and we obviously have to desensitize ourselves. But to remind you what you're living through in terms of the Trump presidency, it's extraordinary. And I you'll be as I say, you'll be reading highlights and lowlights from it. over the next weeks because but it's a really good reminder of just how insane the times through which we're living are. And so that's regime change by Maggie Habman and Jonathan Swann. I'll recommend a book as well. I recommend John Grisham's new novel, The Widow I loveve John Grisham. This is billed as Johnrisham's first who doneun itort of I suppose a very specific way it is, but I, you know, there's there's always plenty of murders in in ag Grisham. But it's great, you know, it's that thing of within the first four pages, you're like I absolutely understand what this is about. So this widow Huge amount ofoney you don't know where it is. No one else knows she's got it and your're lawyer Gion and also by the way, you've got gambling debts John, you have me for three on that if you gages quickly. But you know, he's just, you know, this There's a reason he saw so many books. Oh absolutely. Absolutely. love that John Grishon Other than that, we will be back on Thursday with a Q and A and tomorrow for everybody, first episode free, the World Cup of US sitcoms. Yeah. I hope you enjoy it. It was really fun to. I know I will I'm listening it right after this Pandora jewelry brings the sparkle to your summer, now with even better prices. 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