The Enduring Popularity of Sherlock Holmes

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We've got a lot of questions. We've got we're gonna start with the Kylie documentary. I love the Kylie documentary. Yes, I know you love the Kylie documentary. And Miranda Rit Reynolds and and various others actually want to know. Watching the Kylie Netflix documentary, one of the most striking things is all the incredible use of archive footage. It made me wonder who's capturing all of that material at the time and who was thinking about its future value. Is there a now a more conscious effort to preserve those moments properly knowing they could become hugely valuable years later. It's very true actually. There's there's amazing archive in that and I'm always amazed sometimes when you watch stuff from that kind of era and there's lots of archive because it wasn't an era where we were going around with mobile phones and filming everything. It was the last era when we weren't doing that. And I think um any filmmaker who stumbles across that's why you can do a three-part about Kylie because you discover that that exists. If you're Asif Kapardi or someone, your whole job is you take stuff that was on television or on film and you put all that together. But if you can find a s uh a a subject who has unseen personal footage, that makes for an incredible documentary because you really see a human side of that. We talked to Michael Hart, who's the director and editor of this. Congratulations, Michael. Brilliant job. And thank you for uh replying as well. And he said a lot of it, a lot of the footage you see on that was taken by Kylie's brother, Brendan. There's lots of it as well that Kylie's done herself, and there's stuff with, you know, Kylie and Jason on holidays. But it's really kind of up close and personal stuff. But he said, yes, they they were filming it. I think they were filming it in sort of the same way that lots of families just Yeah, it was family it's fa family home movies as it were. Yeah. And I'm sure Now everything is so cynically preserved. But there it wa there was an innocence then, but I don't think you're doing it. That's right. I'm absolutely certain the bit of them was was w were thinking something extraordinary is happening in our family, something extraordinary is happening to our sister. It would be nice to document this. But I think not so we could do a documentary on Netflix in twenty years' time. That the most use it footage stops becoming useful after us after the w once the smartphone comes along because people are so aware aware of being filmed and they're performing and it you don't have the sense that you're just being given a backstage glimpse it's much more like it's a performance. But funnily enough lots and lots of bands have lots of footage of themselves because I think because it's quite boring being in a band. And if you're a musician, usually you have a slightly technical bent as well. So there's usually somebody I th you know, Suede for years and there was a very good Swade documentary made by Mike Christie, which is on on Sky. Uh and Simon the drummer had just filmed everything for years and years and years. And you know, I think lots of bands have some like to pass the time. Because there's a lot of waiting. Well I think also y you know you're no you know you're living through sort of a golden era with friends and it's and you're doing something that you never imagined you would be doing and it's sort of ex traordinary and you want to document that. And so long as it's one person in your band or in your entourage or in your crew who is doing that, then that footage exists. But I do think I know Adam Curtis's worries aside, I mean the document aries they're gonna be making in fifteen years' time about stuff that's happening now. I mean the footage is gonna be insane. Maybe it's all been put out there. That's the thing. People are making a documentary ordinary people who are not remotely famous make documentaries about their lives every single day and put it on TikTok or shorts or whatever it is. I've always said this a a but have a business idea which is you know if you go to a school nativity play. That a school nativity play is probably the most covered theatrical production in the whole of history because you've essentially got an ISO camera on every single performer, including in the course, including every single one of the sheep. Every single is being covered by an individual camera. So you just get all that footage together and you imagine the edit of a of a nativity play. Every single reaction shot you want is already there. No retakes, you've got everything. Have you got Shepherd Seven? Uh just at the end of this line. Oh yeah, I've got Shepard Seven. Shepherd Seven's dad has to be a very, very high production values company where everyone pulls their footage and then you create a supercut of uh yeah of children's sensitivity plays it feels like that feel that feels like a multi-billion dollar uh uh industry this is like your one about m removing tattoos yes I mean you you would be very diversified if you pursue What was my thing about removing tattoos? That that would make a lot of money if you've developed a thing to faultlessly and remove tattoos, you know. But that feels like something I couldn't do because I would have to work out how to do that. I thought that I'd love to see you in the gallery on Unsifety and bring up the shepherds. Yes . I I would actually just w like to watch that. But thank you so much, uh Michael Hart. I know we've recommended the Kylie documentary before, but if you haven't seen it. Really, really is terrific stuff. But yeah, the archive stuff, it really, really makes it 'cause it feels very real and personal. Funny enough, Michael Hart is saying that Kylie had seen almost none of the footage before the final edit. Because again, like lots of stuff we film, we don't watch back if we you know, especially if we're sort of on a tour and people are filming and filming. So it was the first time she'd seen a lot of that footage. The Paul McCartney Man on the Run documentary about his time with um Wings or with Linda and the beautiful place up in Scotland. So we're watching this thing and it's beautiful, but loads and loads of home video stuff. Again, there's always someone hanging around a band who's filming stuff. But so many people were sort of just turning and watching Paul watching because he's watching, you know, himself and you know that's I love all those the documentaries now always do the uh they show people the footage of them at the time and watch their reactions. I love all that. But uh I can't remember where I was going with that. But uh that's the end of that question. Thank you so much, Miranda. Chloe Wright has a question for you, Marina. I know you've had prep time on this because I thought you would absolutely love it. Chloe says, after the success of the BBC's The O Btherennett sister. What overlooked character from a classic novel would you like to see get their own show next? That, Chloe, is a great question. It's a brilliant question and I obsessed about it to the point where I had to stop myself obsessing about it. Because the other Bennett sister essentially takes a very, very minor character. Mary Bennett. And and w imagines a whole universe for her. We've recommended this show before, but it's brilliant, it's on iPlayer. And they're actually saying, Oh, there's lots of people that we can do. They are actually saying the producers of that Bad Wolf are saying, There's lots of other people that we can sort of draw out of the shadows of these books. And obviously, famously this has been done with lots of you know, like Rose and Grant and Gildenstern are dead. They'd so many Shakespearean ones you could do. I was trying to think what other ones have I actually read that were really obviously the wide cell gas , Jean Reese's novel about Mrs. Rochester, you know, like her sort of prequel to um Jane Eyre. And the Flashman novels, I mean, Flashman is in Tom Brown's school days, he the George McDonald Fraser Flashman books, Flashman's the bully. And you know that line that people say, oh, all villains are just victims whose stories haven't yet been told? Flashman becomes the hero and he has these amazing swashbuckling adventures. But thinking of ones that sort of haven't been done, I did a top three. I don't know why now do it. You see, you've broken me here we go. Everyone literally everyone's got their fingers crossed here. Okay. There we go. That's a pleasant surprise. I thought, although she's not that minor, but I there's something about her that's brilliant. In um uh Portrait of a Lady, a Henry James novel, Isabel Archer's friend Henrietta Stackpole, who's actually sort of amazing because it's whatever it is, it's the late 1800s. And she is an example of the new woman. She is a reporter for the New York interviewer, and she's so sort of modern, and she's got great repartee. I would like to hear more from Henrietta Sackport, I have to say. But she's not a tiny part. So I'm thinking like, okay, these people who have really small parts. I thought one, someone I've always really been fascinated by in the Great Gatsby is our lies and he m he we see him so little. He Nick Carrow meets him in the library at one of Gatsby's party and he's parties and he's the one who says look at this whole library he went to trouble of getting all these books, but actually they haven't been cut, the pages haven't been cut. So he and so he sees things, and some way he's he's like a sort of analogue for Nick Haraway. He's also the only other person who goes to the funeral, and I just find him fascinating. We don't know much about him, but he's he could see through it all as well. And maybe because actually Nick Carrie is much more involved as I uh you know how that character is, you're not quite sure how complicit is he is in lots of these things. Our lives I think would be interesting. But then because I recently reread The Secret History because I wanted to listen to the book club, our fellow uh goal hanger podcast, the book club's episode on it, which was brilliant. And I reread it, and I thought there is a character in that which you will probably remember. She's called Judy Poovy. She's one, she's she's kind of maddening and very annoying. She's also Californian, but she's sort of like a comic foil really in some ways. She's a costume design major, viral. Okay. But actually there's a really interesting sidebar on that which I'm gonna get to in a second, because there was a costume there was only one costume design major at Bennington when Donna Tart went there and she was someone called Michelle Matlin. I don't think she's anyway, she ended up being the costume designer on the succession. No. And so many people have said, I'm so sorry, this is barely disguised at all. Judy Poo V as her, whatever. What who knows? But I'd forgotten at the end of The Secret History as an epilogue of about what happens to some of these genuinely very minor characters. And Judy Poovey Gusta becomes a neurobics instructor. Okay. So what I'm like okay, so I was thinking, okay, I've got to create a character here that I want to see. I it's the nineties. Yeah. She's an aerobics queen in LA. Hopefully she hasn't all her bad habits, i.e., major cocaine use. I sort of see Judy Poovey solving cry she's cause it's she's funny. And I think she by the way, I think she'd have worked it out in the secret history. I think she'd have worked it out giving them a bit more time and a tiny bit more pro proximity. There's something savant about her. And I was see her solving crimes in a story of a week thing. Kind because her idiotic monologues are very funny. And but I actually she is sharp and observant in other ways and I sort of feel like she could be like a zealog type or Forrest Gump type solar. Yeah, the movie through the world somehow actually her presence does resolve the crime. And then she's like, Oh yeah, sure. Yeah. And the fact that she's a costume designer, maybe very good for disguise. She's an aerobics instructor. So I would now be like a. But she was a costume design major. She was, but she becomes an aerobics instructor. Well, she's still got the skills. Yeah, but if it's in the nineties, she's going to be at that interface of the kind of wellness culture, also lots of illicit activ ity in LA. She could explore a particular type of that on uh underground and I just think it would be I think it would be funny and so that's I would that's my show for Judy Poovy. It doesn't have to be a show, it could be a novel, but I'm I slightly see it as a story of the week detectives show. If Donna Tart is listening or if someone draws this to her attention, let's talk. Yeah. Don't you think? I can't even imagine the height of her eye roll if she has that . However, that's Judy Boovy is a cult character. I promise you. People are obsessed with Judy Pooy. The least Donna could do is give you a meeting. Yeah. Just like you know . I'd like to hear a I'd like to hear a no. My only rule in novels is when I br I my favourite thing about writing novels is bringing new characters in. It's like I'm not interested in ciphers or anything like that. Then they're never there to move the plot along. They're like, oh who who would be funny to move in? And I always, always go, could you write a novel about this character? Even if they got four lines, you think I think there's in one of the books out there say if you follow theseed two people home, what would that story be? And I always think that. What would the story be? What would the novel be with these characters in it? Uh and that's uh I I always think is is a good writing tip as well. That's a very good that's a very good way of doing it. Yeah shall we go to an advert let's go to an advert I'd love that this episode is brought to you by Lloyd now I love it when characters are part of a club. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you, Richard? The Thursday Murder Club in some ways reminds me of the A Team. I would now like to map each of those characters onto the A Team and feel I probably could. 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You'll need to be a UK resident and aged 18 or over to apply. It's nearly that time, everyone. The rest is football will be on Netflix every day for the world's biggest tournament. Join myself, Alan and Micah for daily debates, unfiltered takes, and the most special of guests, all from the heart of New York City. Yeah, that's right. We're excited too. See you so on. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Goalhangers. The rest is science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. In the UK, nearly one in two people will face cancer in their lifetime. The question is, could science stop cancer before it begins? And over the past fifty years, Cancer Research UK has helped double cancer survival in the UK. And that's proof of what research can achieve. Like take cervical cancer. Almost every case is caused by HPV, the human papillomavirus. And when scientists uncovered that link, prevention became possible. Indeed it did by a vaccine. And it's protection that works way before the cancer itself can actually grow. After the vaccine was introduced, cervical cancer rates in England were nearly ninety percent lower than expected in women in their twenties. I mean, we're now genuinely at a point where this is a disease that is disappearing in younger women in the UK. This is something that I really hope my daughters will never have to deal with. For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research, breakthroughs, and how you can support them, visit Cancer Research UK dot org forward slash rest is science Welcome back everybody. We're now in the realms of Sherlock Holmes adaptations. Vikram Khan has a question. Anola Holmes 3 is on its way. Rafe's ball's gonna be Sherlock in a Sky adaptation next year. And I've just seen that a new Moriarty series is in the works. Yes. This begs the question is Sherlock the most played character in film history and why has he endured so long? Why has he enjoyed? I mean we we know why there's so many adaptations and that's because he's uh out of copyright so anyone can do him. He he's got that what he's got that sort of Judy Poovy thing, funnily enough, which is if you have it's funny I was talking to somebody you know, the the thing with Sherlock is is y you have to use him quite sparingly 'cause he's so good. Yeah. You know, he he absolute the the the problem with someone he's so brilliant he can solve things immediately. So if you read those Sherlock Holmes books a a lot of the time it's how do we keep Sherlock out of the way? Yes. So Sherlock is often, you know, in a in a some sort of tr you know, drug induced stupor or, you know, he's off in on the continent having to sort of track someone else down because the second he puts his mind to a case, that case gets solved. But that aside, having someone who is brilliant but troubled, and putting them at heart of a crime drama is something that every sort of crime writer enjoys doing, which is what so every everyone loves to um get their hands on Sherlock Holmes. They can do different versions of him because again, he's slightly absent on the page, which means you can fit you can really colour him in if you're uh if you're if you're a filmmaker. We did a little bit of research and Sherlock Holmes is not the most played character in movies. I've got a top ten for you. Right, number seven, we've got no uh number ten, Frankenstein. Okay. Yeah. Frankenstein, young Frankens tein, Bride of Frankenstein. I could go on. Uh number nine, young guy. May have heard of him. Robin Hood. Yep. Yep. Number eight, Napoleon. Right. This is going to be like the mod mobland executive producers list, isn't it? Yeah. Come some more great guys. Well, I was gonna say, well, listen. So he's real. Number seven, we go fictional again, James Bond. He's real. Jimmy Bond. Yeah. Yeah. Number six, Sherlock Holmes. So he's the sixth most portrayed character on screen. We got a top five. People are thinking, who's in this top five? Holmes is six. Number five, Father Christmas. So again, real. We have a real character final. A real man from history. Number four, we are real again. Abraham Lincoln. Wow. Yeah. I mean I remember Lincoln. Yeah. I guess I've seen him a lot of countries in their country though, he'll he'll know. In their country. In their country, he'll never be off. Yeah, which is America. Top three. I've got a new game show, real or not real. Number three, The Devil. Okay. It's been portrayed on awful lot. Yeah. Number two, listen, you can guess who number one is if the devil is number three. I love that there's someone in between those two. And number two is Dracula. Yeah. So the devil is number three, Dracula is number two. And number one, we're counting them as one person, which I mean uh I don't believe it's theologically controversial, but Yeah. Uh God slash Jesus. They're all part of the God . The Holy Spirit is there, but it's hard to put on screen. Yeah, exactly. The Holy Trinity essentially, are uh are and is number one. Uh so yeah, Sherlock Holmes own only number six. Behind Father Christmas. I'm surprised Lincoln's in there. I'm thrilled for Dracula. Well deserved. Do you know what? What a great character. I wonder if anyone has done just reading through that list, if anyone has done Father Christmas Solvent crime . I wonder if in a because he's got a all the skills for it. Please don't give another of your great Netflix holiday movie ideas away live on air, but that is a good one. Father Christmas solving crying. Yeah. So it's Santa Claus. I'll think of a pun. Yeah, I I I was thinking why haven't we got that yet? But we will do that. Yeah, something about a sleigh. Yeah. Or elves. There'll be something. Yeah, that feels like a hit. Yeah. Because you can go around the world, he can get into places, uh like everyone welcomes him. And if someone doesn't welcome him, you know they're evil. Yeah. The amazing family guy uh episode with uh Stewie and Brian and uh Father Christmas is m one one of the great works of any art form in any century, I would say. But yeah, Father Christmas, Solvent Crime. There we go. Thank you for the question, Vitcram. We've only got we've got two series out of the last two questions. We've got the Judy Poo V ysteries and we've got Final Christmas Solving Crime. Yeah. I like both of them. Talking of some of the greatest characters in the history of the Oh my god, that's the best name. That's a good name. Suddenly we got three series. Yeah. Aruba asks. Again. Listen, yeah. Oh w hold on. Oh, I see Aruba raids. I see what she's done. Yeah. It's a nom de plume. Yeah, exactly. Because she's asking about Venezuela Fury. Aruba rage. Venezuela Fury. Why is Venezuela Fury suddenly everywhere? I feel like I can't breathe in the direction of a tabloid without reading her name. Will the family have struck a secret deal with the press to make this happen? Why do tabloids latch on to certain people like this? Okay, very good. Aruba, not your real name. Venezuela Fury is the daughter of, if you've been under a rock and have somehow missed this, she's the daughter of Tyson Fury and his wife Paris. Um she's 16, she's just got married. Netflix have got a show called That Home with the Furies, which she's sort of part of. I totally agree. She has just blown up recently in a really big way. So they've had the wedding and the honeymoon. There's okay, there's a number of reasons for this. First of all, I think obviously when you're gonna get a wedding and they're gonna be able to see pictures and all of that, and they put a lot on social media, a whole family is always good because we already know like the fury IP, as it were. You've got all sorts of dynamics, mini feuds, feuds you can conf ie Fury of M Molly May and Tom Tommy Fury fame is Anazuela's uncle. Tommy Fury's married to Molly May. So they've got all of that. Are they back together? Yeah. Oh yeah. No way. Oh my god, hello, is it last year? Yes, Tommy Jerry and Molly May are back together. Are they? Yeah. She should have another baby. Get out of town. Oh my gosh. After what he did. You don't know what he did. No, I suppose I don't. Right, so just we don't know what he did. I watched the boxing. Yeah. That's about as far as I go with the Furies. With with Venezuela, the story's very interesting. She's very young, she's sixteen. Um, you know, they've been on this 30,000 pound honeymoon that we keep being told of and there's been lots of pictures of that. And they've come straight back from it and moved into their first house, which is not a house, is a caravan. So and she's moved out of the Tyson Fury's big house, he's now worth hundreds of millions. So I think people think that there's lots in the story. But I would say that there is a sort of market decision here. The market decides: will there be sufficient supply of Venezuela Fury? In which case you can create the demand. People who make themselves available. Yeah. When I my f as I've said before, my first job was in journalism, which I didn't mean to go into I was answer I used to answer the phone on the showbiz desk at the sun and I learnt then how many people who were in the papers or as we called it then, but are in the media want to be in the media and it is extraordinary. People are now you can tell people who would like she would obviously like a show. She's obviously seen that her and her husband could have a show maybe What does he do, Noah? So her husband is called Noah Price, he is nineteen and he's an amateur boxer. Gonna shock you. I'm gonna shock you, right? Isn't I think they want to be online. Though they put a lot online. But I remember being on that on that desk at the sun and just I can tell you the people who would ring in and say stories about their own lives, my God, I mean I'm gonna totally disguise this because I remember an oh my god, I remember some there were two people . Well you say the name and we'll and we'll beat the name up just like there were two people really famous, they were having an affair with each other and she rang in, he I think she they'd been on the coke all night and he'd finally ended it. And she rang in the morning in a real state and said, I've been having an affair with him for however many years. It didn't run in this exact format, by the way, and I've been having an affair with how many years I think she was trying to bounce him into like once it was exposed, he would uh his wife would chuck him out, but it didn't happen in the end. But I remember thinking the level of detail being provided here is extraordinary. And definitely we now live in an era where people just want to be a particularly sort of influencer level. The male who've covered this particularly male online, they've now got lots of people who just cover influencers. And almost traditional celebrities, as it were, have become less interesting because people feel Well, they're harder to research. They're so much harder to research. These people are putting lots of their lives online. Yeah. We've talked before about Tatal Life and all those sort of s scurrulous sites that love the idea that these people are fraudulent in some way. So there's always a sort of like, this is what she put online, but this is the actual truth of her life. And you can already see them starting to send it a sense that there's there is a a a s genuine quid pro quo now that they can report on it because they are so visible? Yeah, I suppose you but there was people also used to say in the old days, oh you've sold your story to okay for this and that, now you can't be annoyed when you can't just turn the tap on and off for publicity. And that has been democratized hugely. Not that many people were in a position to be interesting enough to s get a big budget magazine deal. Everyone can put what they like online about themselves and seemingly d seemingly do . And I would definitely say that that that yes, she's blown up for a reason. People think there'll be lots of stories in her. She is blowing herself up, she's putting herself out there, and there are all these correspondents now who used to cover traditional celebrities and now have completely pivoted to covering influences because that's where the interest is, that's where they think there'll be more stories that you'll be able to expose. Uh, and it's just but it it's the it's a totally new dynamic. And these people are But you're always looking for new celebrities. If you're not sure, yeah. Ones that will deliver on drama, yeah, on uh mess, on just will be available to you because I'm afraid nobody really leaves the office anymore. It's all done off people's social media feeds, it's uh and it has been for a long, long time. First of all, it used to be who does what on Twitter or Instagram, who follows, who doesn't unfollow, and things. It's not going out and knocking on doors and talking to people and meeting nightclub barmen and whatever it is. And none of it comes from that anymore. It's all completely office-bound, this job. And also if you're on the Maid Online or The Sun or whoever, every single story they're putting out about Venezuela Fury, they will immediately see the impact of that. back and the numbers presumably are very difficult. Yeah, people probably want to read about her. Yeah. And as I say, there's there's the whole family, there's lots of potential for different things. Yeah. Um so she's a good character. Yeah. I think people sometimes don't recognise the difference between a story that will run and a story that won't. You could write the biggest story in the world about someone uninteresting and you will get no clicks. You could write a tiny minor story about Venezuela Fury and you see that what it brings in immediately. Big off a wedding dress designer. You wouldn't believe what it would get. Yeah. But that's why suddenly someone is everywhere because people are clicking and clicking and clicking. And in the old days they say, look, they sell papers. That was slightly harder to work out who was selling the papers and who wasn't, because you're buying a whole thing. But now you can literally see every single click on everyone but I do also believe that you create the market and as some of it is born of laziness. If people put themselves out there a lot, then you're just going to invest as a reporter in those ones because there's going to be a steady stream of stuff that you can write and talk about. And people who are actually quite withdrawn, there's there's less and less about them. It's amazing. Some of the, you know, even the biggest pop stars in the world, there's actually relatively little that you hear about sort of Harry Styles or Taylor Swift because n they don't put anything out there particularly. There's pictures of them going out to dinner but th so the articles are very different. Yeah. Yeah. Speculative articles rather than Yes. Exactly. And also there's something to be said for having a brilliant name. And Venezuela I mean Venezuela is amazing. Fury was called Tyson Fury and became the world heavy red boxing champion. I mean, that's unbelievable. That's so perspicacious of John Fury. How are you John Fury and you're calling your son Tyson and then and suddenly you've got a granddaughter called Venezuela? They've gone from John to Venezuela in two generations. That's ambition. Yeah, isn't it just? But you you know, the second if she was called Jane Fury , then people go, Oh, okay, oh who's that? Is that Tyson Fury's but being called Venezuela Fury? People are immediately, okay, give me more. Be careful. When when when you name your kids, have a little think about their Instagram handles in a few years' time. Bolivia would be a nice name. Suriname for a boy. I'm gonna call my father Christmas thing Santa Laws. And it's catchphrase is you've been Saint Nicked . Disney, gimme a ring. Judy Poovie, again that's that that's all comers can come in for that. Yeah. But we need to talk to Donatas about that first. Yes. Yes. Although I've I have got some ideas.. Yes And I have now as well. I think that's us done. Your amazing series with James Kanakasurian continues tomorrow for our members. If you want to be a member, it's the rest of entertainment at goalhanger.com. And you're talking about um whether everything's become generic, whether we've all become basic. But it's a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant series. If you if you if you haven't tuned in there, you must do. Next week, our QA will not be uh your questions to us will be our questions to Steven Spielberg I think is coming out next week isn't it out of him yeah out of him but before that of course we'll have a uh a regular episode so um we'll see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday