Entertainer or Artist

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, celebrity culture has a way of taking very small preferences and promoting them until they require a lot of paperwork. Yeah, it's like the first time you ever go on a show and you say, Oh, could have some sparkling water, and then like forever it's like, oh, you have to have sparkling board. It must have sparkling board. It's very, very important. And that's what we call the rider. The rider. Right. In some cases, the rider didn't stay sort of practical for long, you know. It started as a wish list and then it sort of strayed into a kind of a hostage note from the ego. There was a point in J Lo's ego where she was having like, you know, you know, the white drapes, the white candles, the white absolutely everything, white flowers, white, you know, sofas, everything. Most people don't actually need a rider in this life of ours, however, but there is something reassuring about not having to specify everything twice or more. One of my absolute favourite things about Octopus Energy, if you ring them about anything, your number is recognized and you'll go through to a team who deals with you and have dealt with you before? So yeah, you have a team, they recognize your number, and you go through to people who you don't have to explain the same thing to 15 times . Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest is Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. A slightly different episode this week. Our guest, I I often use a phrase needs no introduction, but it's Paul McCartney. He definitely needs no introduction. Yeah, Sir Paul McCartney. Yeah. Um of Wings, of course. Uh so we recorded this last week. They said um Sir Paul would um love to talk to you. Would you be able to come to Abbey Road Studios to do it with that? Yeah. That's even better for us than than than Se Paul coming to the Spotify studios. I know you won't say this, but I'm going to say what you did that day, which was hilarious. You did a dash from receiving your OB E at Wind Windsor Castle straight to Abbey Road to talk to Paul McCartney. It was quite a day in some ways. It's unbelievable day. Yeah, I spoke to the Princess Royal in the morning. Uh and then yeah, straight to I loved it that he said he'd only had his all of his honours from the late Queen. Yes. to talk about it. Um now in this interview which we absolutely loved, thank you to to Sir Paul's team, um and it was uh it it was to celebrate the release of the Boys of Dungeon Lane, which is his new it's really beautiful album where he's really, really, really looking back to his uh It's like a fame prequel. Yes, it is like a fame prequel. And and you know, he he was a he was in an interesting introspective mood because of that. And we you sent in so many questions, thank you so much. Loads of really , really good ones. Couldn't use all of them. Um so have have a listen out and see if we used yours. Talked about one thing that's a really ri there's a great question about the nature of fame and how much that has changed. But we we've talked about And fandoms and mad fandoms, which you know he knew a few things about but was genuinely Glaris, I found on on on fandom. But um listen we'll we'll talk to you again afterwards as well, but I will just say this, what a dude . This episode is brought to you by ITV. Now Marina, there is a brand new drama about to appear on ITV1 and ITVX. It's for the twists and turns set within the corridors of power, and it's called A Secret Yes, it is full on espionage with spies secrets and so much more. But it ultimately asks the question, what if Russia placed an asset at the very top of the UK government? The show takes you from the streets of Malta to the uh the very inside corridors of Whitehall and it's based on the Sunday Times best-selling book by ITV newsreader Tom Bradby. The cast is great. It's got Gemma Arterton, Rafe Spauld, uh who are both incredible actors and no strangers to starring in mind-bending thrillers. So make sure you don't miss Secret Service, available right now on ITV1 and ITVX. So Paul, what an absolute pleasure. Now, all of the questions in this interview come from our listeners Yes, I very much someone has written in from Liverpool. Matthew Lumbey says, After you announced the Boys of Dungeon Lane as your album title, I drove straight round to Dungeon Lane to see what it was like. The street signs had been nicked. Was this random scallies or was this cooked up And if it was you, are you going to put the signs back ? It was a scalli. Because I I went up there, you know, to I thought I'll take pictures of it, because we're gonna do it for the album cover. And it was gone. Even before you'd announced? Yeah, even before I got there, yeah. So it's a it's a mock up. Oh is it? Yeah, the the album cover hat. Well 'cause yeah, I I think they may replace it, but it'll get nicked by it. So that was it. It was there when I was a kid. But I think the uh I think the philosophies have changed. You know, because when you were a kid, no one would dare nick a street sign. It's just something that uh the older generation doesn't. Abbey Road, Penny Lane, I mean there's a lot of them. Dungeon Lane is gonna be the new one. Um well let's talk about a little bit more about Dungeon Lane. A question from Matt Creasy, who says your most recent album is about memories of Liverpool. When you were writing songs about the past, how do you make sure the music stays present. Um Well, 'cause it is present. That's you don't really have to think about it too much. Um and 'cause it's me writing it. So I'm writing it on a guitar or or maybe a piano. And I can't really do much more than what I do. So you know, it's it's always gonna sound sort of present ish, um no matter what the lyrics are. It's just the way I write. You know, I d uh I I write in all sorts of different styles. Yeah. But they're all joined together by the fact it's me. Yes. They're all Paul McCartney. Which was have you ever accidentally caught yourself writing a melody of a song and thought, oh actually I've already written that? Yeah. Or other people have written it. Yeah. We used to do that. Ringo used to come up with songs and we say Ringo that's a Bob Dylan song you go oh and John and I used to do that too sometimes we'd just have a great melody here we go here and then it'd be like isn't that how the Westside story was something, you know. It's easy to do. But when you do so you you're going back in your mind thinking of memories of Liverpool at that time. Yeah. Do you also go back in time with memories of how you wrote songs at that time? Do you know that are are you able to sort of connect with that teenager musically as well? No, I don't think so. I think you know you you're lucky if you can write songs, you're lucky if they develop and your style develops. So I can do things within the that song you're talking about by my mum and dad Salesman Saint. In it we have the sound of an old forties band. Yeah. So I can do things like that, which is it's not my style going back. It's just that this is what they would have listened to. There's a line in the song sort of says the only entertainment was a piano and radio, hot tea and cigarettes. Yeah. You know, that's what I remember. Yeah. My dad was the family pianist at sing al ongs, and uh they both smoked cigarese and drank a lot of tea. So that's you know, that's what I would just pick up on. It comes through I have to say, people who who who are gonna listen to this album or listens it's so brilliant and it and it absolutely takes us back somewhere whilst we're also we're still in twenty twenty six. I think it's wonderful, yeah. It's going it's a prequel. How do you tunnel back there? I've someone, Jensen Tag has written and he and he said Bob Dylan says that when he looks back at songs he wrote in his twenty, he doesn't quite know who that person is who wrote Blowing in the Wind. Do you feel similar? Yeah, yes, it is. Only difference is I sort of know what what who that person was. Um because there's a there's a sort of line to to what we did. We first came in this studio, Abbey Road studio, as sort of just barely out of our teenage years. And we were writing songs then f directly to the fans. So Love Me Do , please. Please please me. Please brackets. From me to you. She loves you. It's all about me or you directly to the people who are listening. And then we start to get a bit different, you know, so I kinda know I remember who that guy who those guys were . It was people from Liverpool, writing to the fans, first phase, then maturing a little bit and getting a little bit more artistic or whatever, you know. So yeah, I I think I kind of do remember who I was. You always strike me as someone who's been able to totally preserve their innocence. How on earth have you managed that? Yeah, I don't know. I people do put it another way. They'll say, how how have you how have you stayed so normal with with the Beatles and the whole thing, wings, the whole thing. Um and I'm I think the truth is it's with my family. I was very lucky. I came from a very loving family, very smart working class people . And I always say to people, don't underestimate the working class. Because you know, I I can see the thing, oh thickhead, that the plumber. What's he know ? But from my family I know that like for instance my cousin Bert was he compiled crosswords for the uh for the Guardian and for the times . So I mean, you know, to do that, that's pretty smart working class guy. Isn't it just and you know, he's just one of us. Yeah. So we had that kind of stuff going on. Very smart. All the the rep ati. By the way, I think the reason that Bob Dinner doesn't remember writing Blowing in the Wind is because Ringo Starr wrote it. Uh from uh Khalid uh Khalid Said. He says, as someone who's been extraordinarily famous for possibly the longest time of any famous person, uh can you describe how being famous has changed in your lifetime? What did it feel like to be famous in the 60 versuss today? Yeah, I think the big difference is in yourself. When you're first famous, you love it. Because it's what you're trying to achieve. So you actually get a little hit or you you know, something goes well and people in the street know you, you love it. Yeah. There's never any of this sort of, oh people are bothering me. You know, there's nothing The modern affliction. Yeah, no, we I loved it, you know. And you learn to deal with it. I remember going to a gig once and I took the tra in out out of London to the station near this gig and I was I walked in just on my own to the gig and there's a little gang of girls found found me and they're all screaming around and I'm going, girls, girls , calm down . Calm down. Now listen, here's the deal. If you keep quiet, I'll do your autographs. We'll walk in and it would be great. So you you learned how to deal with that and they would they got it and they were very good. Um and realized they'd get some special time, you know. As time's gone by , the times have changed. So now phones. Yeah. Yeah. Phones . So if I meet someone, it's like, oh, oh, and they're reaching for their phone, you know. And I say, um, I'm sorry, I don't do pictures. And that is like radical these days. Yeah. Cause I I I told that um name dropping out, I told that to Oprah. She goes, You don't what you don't do pictures? I said, no. So why? I don't wanna you know and it's like it's as simple as that. And I have a long explanation about Oh God, it goes on. Um I say, you know, I don't like to do that 'cause it's important to me. It's a bit your question to well, you're innocent or is a normalness . I feel that's very important to me. The minute I get like above myself and start thinking I'm like something else. Um I won't like me. So it's very important for me to be sort of just me. And so I will say if you I don't want to uh do the photos and they'll say why. I say, well I'll tell you what, and I go into this long-winded explanation of down on the south coast of France, Saint Tropez, there's a guy on the beachfront who's got a monkey and you pay to have your photo taken with the monkey. So I say and I really do not want to feel like that monkey. And when I take a picture with you I do feel like him. Oh that's great. I'm not me. I'm suddenly something else. But that way they've got a proper moment of connection with you. I felt that weirdly I went to the Louvre I took my daughter to Paris for the first time. We went to the Louvre. No one looked at any of the pictures. They just stuck their hand their phone up and photographed it. And you know, you're a bit little bit like Ramona Lisa. So but just having just the photo like that, rather than a phenomenon of of how we live now, yeah. I love the idea that there's someone who's seen Sir Paul McCartney is so excited and then asking for this and you get towards the end of the explanation and they're going, Anyway, Paul, I have got a great catch. Lovely to meet you. It was a nice story. And then they go back to their friends and say, You met poor guy? Did you get a picture? No. He just went on some bloody monkey. I had some special time he told me an incredible anecdote about a monkey. It was something about the monkeys. I forget, I forget what it was. I mean do you feel the the the press and intrusion and things like that have changed since the the the sixties as well? Or I think they were always intrusive, you know. I think uh it doesn't bother me the press. I always used to call them lovable rogues 'cause there is that element to them. Now some of them are not so lovable. Yeah. But I don't mind, you know, it's their job and so as long as what they're writing about you isn't too bad. I just think it's occupational hazard. Speaking of of somewhat or not occupational hazard, this is one of my favorite questions we had today from Philip Andrew, who says, even though you are very, very famous, have you ever been mistaken for another celebrity? Um No. Oh that's good. Yeah. You're the apex. The absolute apex predator of celebrity. I was trying to think it would have been good. No, but no. I think you have to play along in the moment if you are. Yeah. If we muse off off I'll muse it for a second, so I know you're a big T V fan, I know you love all the types of culture. Laura uh Godbolt says: if you had to be a contestant on a reality game show, which one would you choose and why? E.g., traitors, bake-,off dragon's den, etc. Pointless. Thank you. Absolutely. And not just because you And that's a booking. That's an official booking. It's Christmas. Pointless is one of my favorites. Um so that would probably be the one. Other favourite shows, goggle box, house of games. There you go. Without Richard I had a another question from Rachel Ablett, who's the producer of Would I Lie to You as she said, Would you ask Sir Paul if he'll come on the Would I Lie To You Christmas special? We'd love to have him. Oh my god. But on that show they do an interview with you where they sort of say, Has anything interesting ever happened to you? And you'd be like they've said they'd be there for weeks. Now Cherry says you've always been a great character writer, Eleanor Rigby, Rocky Raccoon, Jenny Wren. Is there any behaviour that you see in people in the twenty first century that still baffles you? Um the new types of I think a lot of this influencer stuff, I just because I'm not that generation. I just don't really get it. But I see it. You can't help it. You know, it's on an Instagram where my wife will be looking and she'll be showing me something else and then one of those will come on. Um I just think it is funny. I suppose it always happened, but people who don't seem to be particularly talented are like very famous, only very famous, billions of hits and views and all of that. So you you've got to be careful about talking about that because it makes you sound very old-fashioned. Which I am. Yeah, I think if you're support McCartney, you're allowed to say that now. Am I? Yes, I think I think I think you can get away with it. I'll continue. Yeah. In the same way you're allowed to name drop Oprah. Yeah. She was lucky to be named up. She was lucky. She was lucky to appear in this. This episode is brought to you by Lloyd who you can rely on to keep life running smoothly. Now, you know what isn't celebrated enough is the behind the scenes work that makes successful entertainment seem so smooth. But the people having to run around after them are the runners. And there is not a single successful television show that isn't powered by brilliant runners. Whenever you hear a director or actor say, you know, we're all just one big happy family, I always think, yeah, and you're the children and the people who are like running around are actually always the youngest people on set because runners are always really young. It's an absolute first job in the business. Nothing goes wrong. And it's very similar to your bank. You just need them to be there when you need them. Well, like with the Lloyd's app, you can check lots of handy things, little details, what payments you have coming up, what subscriptions you're paying for. It is this kind of helpful, smart stuff And that's based on Lloyd's internal customer data from March 2026. But we just want to say thank you to all the runners and thank you to Lloyd's. Do you do you think about hits and views? Uh no. No. Which um so I've got kids who work in the office who are great and they really understand that stuff, they love it, they live it. So they will just tell me what is a good thing to do , and you could do that, and that would be good. So I don't really think about it. I'm just led, see that ring in the end of my nose. Stick a hook in it. Just do what you're told. Lead me anywhere. And so that's interesting because you've had every type of success you could have, and you've lived through all those things of, you know, we just we want to set out this venue and then we want to, you know, go abroad, and then we want to have a record out, and then you know, we want to have a number one. What does success mean to you now? So with the new album, which you obvio'usrely very proud of, what does success look like now when when you release a new record? I think that people would like what I'm doing. Yeah. It was always the kind of bottom line. But now that 's really the only line. Um if I go out on tour, then that the audience likes the new songs. But I will say I I know they don't. Audiences don't like new songs normally. I mean uh you know, I'll say to them, okay, you know, I say, we're going to do a new song now. And I say, and I know you don't like it, because whenever we whenever we do a big Beatles song, your cameras all light up and it's like a galaxy at night. I said, When we do a new song, it's like a black hole. And it is true, they don't they don't really want to. But you should say you know you know those songs are new as well. Yeah. It was a time. No, so I think it's just the people liking what you're doing, which is the old. Yeah. I think that's basically what everyone wants. Uh you know, my my kids laugh at me because they say, You like adulation, don't you? I say, Yeah, you can adulle me anytime you want. Do you like adjul ation? That's an interesting question. I do and I think Is that because it means you've done a good job or is there uh is there like a personal ego in that or is it is it you you want people to to love the thing that you've created? I think it's that. It's it's that you you've created something, if you're writing a song that you think is good and you think, oh yeah, wow, I really cracked it here. So when you record it and then it goes out into the world, your babies fly out into the world. Um, if people like it, that's sort of what you're looking for. I mean, beyond just the satisfaction of creating a piece of art. Once it goes out, it's like I mean the the the song, the single off of the new album Dungeon Lane is is called Days We Left Behind. And I've had a lot of feedback of that. A lot of people say I was crying and 'cause it it is very emotional song. And the the the verse that that gets me very emotional is it sort of says not hing stays the same, no one needs to cry. And it's like that's the line that makes you want to be able to deliberately trying to make them cry by doing that. I don't know where's it come from, Richard? Yeah. Uh I don't know. But um no i it is it is great if something you've done and you think uh that's pretty good and then people actually feed back and say, you know , I I love what what that was. I think that's all I'm looking for. Contemporary artists seem to have a much harder time saying, I actually love the adul ation. Why why is that? Why do they have to do that? Well you know look think about it. What is it we start off trying to do? We're at school, you go the careers master, and he tells you you're hopeless, there's nothing out there for you. You know, you haven't got something of yo urself. Yeah. So you would always go, Oh God, you know, okay, and then then we got in a group and then you start to do well and things. And what is it you're looking for? You're looking for approval or looking for money, looking to get out of your circumstances and ri des in the world. But uh I don't think there's any point being shy about that. I think everyone knows. Anyway, if you're in a job, you want promotion. Yeah. Or you know, if you've got a show on television, you want ratings. Exactly house of games, six o'clock every uh every day. I d I I think that of of the billions of people that have ever lived on the planet, you've had one of the most extraordinary lives of any of them. If you think about where you came from and where you ended up. Just this is just philosophically, what is it like to be Paul McCartney when you wake up in the morning? If you know what I mean by that question. When you what do you think about the life that you've lived and what happened to you and how it happened. It must feel extraordinary. Well, you know what? I think my uh shield against that is to try not to think of it too much. Because I often think, well, wait a minute, you know, I'm I'm looking for sort of one little success. Great. But then if I I've got I've got a few. You know, I've got that and I've got that song and I got that song and that song. If I really Paul, you've great man. I think my head had explode. Yeah. So I kind of try and sort of dampen it down a little bit and sort of think, yeah, that was okay, that was a good one. And I I I don't really feel like him. Yeah. He's the famous one. Yeah. I'm sort of the guy who has to go up and you know have breakfast. Well that's it. But when you're watching you know there's so much footage of of everything you did and that that must feed into it a bit. You have to watch some of it presumably. And just a constant reminder of of what's happened. Like there's a massive cue outside today, every day of people waiting to do it. When you come drive past that, do you just think, huh, I remember doing that once? I don't like the idea that you've uh been striving all your life for success and fame or whatever it is the success is, and then you turn around and go, nah, don't like it. I think that's churlish. I think, you know, what you want to do is go, yeah, I I've got here here, I'm, you know. What did I want? I wanted that, that, that, that. Okay, I've got I've got it. So just be happy with it and don't, you know, don't go crazy, because it what's the eagle's line? The the wheels don't let your wheels drive you crazy Don't s let the sound of your wheels drag you down. There we go. No li it's almost the This seems really mad asking you about this because as I say you've done very well. But I do think people are really interesting when they talk about their failures. And we have a question from Lux Adams, he says: John was often often unfairly dismissive of his prior work, referring to some of his grades as rubbish. Are there any of your own contributions that you sometimes secretly look back on and think, hmm? Yeah. Yeah, you know, you you get some songs you you think didn't really work or didn't achieve what you wanted to achieve. But you can't can't win them all, you know. I I've I had a song called Bip Bop. And it's just very bip-b , bip op, bit-bop, biim b -ba and I I was looking back on that and thinking, gosh, how could I get away with that? But I was with Trevor Horn, the producer, and Trevor said that's one of my favourites of yo urs. So seeing it from his perspective, I thought, you know what, he's he's he's no slouch . Maybe it's okay. But yeah, that one I I think wasn't that great. Are the songs though that you have to play that you sometimes think, oh I would rather not play that one today? Lucky because um I d I don't get that. Yeah. And you think I would with Hey Jude. Yeah. But the audience sings all of that, don't they? The thing is, again, what is it you're trying to achieve? If if you're going out to make do a show, I know who's in my audience most of the time. And it's kind of families. So it can be grandads, sort of my age, or it can be their kids um and then it can be their kids. So it's it's quite a spread. Yeah. So I think, well we could do songs they don't know, have a lot of black holes. Yeah. But they've paid a lot of money. And I I remember as a kid, yeah, I used to go to shows, you know, and save up. Um I I went to a Bill Haley concert. Yeah. There's there's a name to conjure with. But I'd saved for months and done a paper round and done everything, you know. And I knew what I wanted. I wanted him to do his hits. And if he got all clever on me, I would be okay. I'd I'd let him indulge himself. In fact, talking about Mr. Dylan, Bob, I've been to see a couple of shows of Bob's and you really I couldn't tell what the song was that he was doing. Now that's a bit much because I mean I know his stuff and you know I get it if he doesn't want to do Mr. Tambourine Man. Uh you know maybe he's fed up with that. But I You could do a request, I'm sure he'd like to obligate. So if you if you had to have one word to describe yourself out of the two I'm about to give you 'cause I I I get the feeling of and they're not mutual mutually exclusive of course, but would you say you're an entertainer or an artist? Uh I'd have to say an entertaining artist. Yes, entertainer first. But then yeah, you entertained by being an artist. I suppose, you know. Um I'd like to think I was an artist, but then you do shows and you get these families and they've all paid to come in and they're not necessarily all rich. So I think why wouldn't I give 'em what they want? Yeah. We we put in a few songs that they don't particularly like. But we enjoy playing those. The band just looking at each other going, yeah, this one. Yeah, we love this one. But you know, I'd I like, I mean, particularly these days too, you do something like Hey Jude and you see this whole audience singing together. And in in Trump's America and the Republicans and Democrats all at each other's throats. When we do that song, they're not. They're all they're all loving it and they're all it's like, wow, this is pretty amazing, you know, that suddenly this room has forgotten all of that and is not you know, gonna argue with each other, we're all just gonna sing together. So those kind of things I I think are valuable. I like that, and I also like it for them, I think. Yeah. But I say I mean genuinely thank you for the I mean across the whole of culture to achieve what you've achieved but still to maintain that, to understand that you're entertaining, you and understand that you want to bring people together and to keep that spirit for a long time, I think, is extraordinary with the ups and downs you've had. Uh and so I know that you can't wake up in the morning and congratulate yourself on being Paul McCartney, but I certainly from our listeners and from us I want to thank you because it's very easy to have a world that that didn't have Paul McCartney in it. And the world is a better place because Paul McCartney is in it. Thank you, Richard. And I would say I'm a fan of yours. Let's just leave it at that. Let's leave it at the league at that. It's never gonna get any better than that. Primetime Beatles, Paul, John, George Ringo, House of Games, who wins the trophy? Oh, the Beatles. All of them together. All of them together. That's fair enough. Just gonna have to accept that, I'm afraid. You can't beat the Beatles, Richard. You can't beat the Beatles. Exactly right. You're not in the monkeys, you're in the Beatles. Uh so Paul, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Absolute pleasure. Thanks for giving me the time and also thank you for still making such brilliant music. This is a terrific album. I know you had a listening party uh this afternoon and people are in floods of tears and I can absolutely see why you still got it. Oh boy. Thank you very much. Thank you . Whoa. So Paul McCartney. I was trying to get him to tell me which member of the Beatles would have won House of Games. I think maybe I didn't word it correctly. That's why we should always have our listeners' questions instead of mine. But w when we were walking away and we were sort of oh we were on a bit of a high and we just sort of walked down every road together, I was saying I I just think there's something about enthusiasts in life that I yeah always and increasing as I got older, funnily enough I am drawn to. But you can't remain like that and be seem so sprightly and so interested unless you're just a complete enthusiast for life. And that's what really th that's what I meant in a way about that thing about how have you never lost your innocence. I think it's there's something still really childlike in the best way about him. I think it's exactly yeah. And it's it's it's funny because you're surrounded by his team there 'cause lots of people filming and all sorts of things. And just they clearly loved him. Yeah. And that speaks uh volumes as well, doesn't it? It it really it's very peculiar to live in the same world as Sir Paul McCartney, given everything that he has done, because really he's a cultural artifact. He's like the great pyramids of Giza. But he's sitting there as a human being. And how wonderful, you know, in the same week that we celebrated David Attenborough's hundredth birthday, how wonderful still to have these people, these incredible titans of entertainment walking amongst us that we can chat to and listeners can ask questions to. I I God I loved it so much. It's just completely magical. A magical day, particularly for you. Yeah, for and do you know what? When I was I was walking up to um the studios and I was at the the road that crossed circum circus road that crosses across Abbey Road and there's traffic lights and there was a the red man, I thought, oh shall I wait at this traffic lights? I think, oh is there a zebra crossing further up? I genuinely thought it. You thought, Yeah, yes, there is a zebra crossing further up, it turned out. Um thank you to Se Paul's team. Thank you to Zebul as well for absolutely everything. We had our photo taken with him. Yeah. Uh that's all we can ask for. But most of all, thank you know, doing these interviews is so great because you guys write the questions. Yes, absolutely. But we've we've got some more very, very interesting names coming up that uh we're gonna be looking for questions for as well. We will announce those in due course. But uh in the meantime, thank you so much listeners for all that and and thank you to support. Thank you so much .