Scottish and English Anthem Identities

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So hello everybody. Welcome to the seconde in our World Cup themed series about the history behind the national Anthems of The most interesting contenders I was about to say the top contenders, but I don't think South Africa are a top contender, but they're the most interesting Obviously Tom we were always going to do God save the King because we are, of course, a patriotic podcast But also because this is a brilliant example of a very familiar anthem. can open up this window into a very interesting area of history spepecifically in this case A period of history we haven't done as much of on this show as we should have done, which is the eighteenth century So we'll be talking a lot about the politics of the eighteenth century, but before then, just on the anthem itself I think very unfairly, people often disiss this anthem And they say it's a bit I think because it's often played badly by the durge. They say it's a durge. A durge. I think it's a legal requirement to say that it is a durge. I don't think it is a durge, but there you go. Well, I'm quite fond of it as well. I have to say, but I would I mean, maybe you would disagree I don't think it has the kind of operatic power strutting Bombastic So we've done two national anthems before this. One was the previous one, the Star Spangle Banner., Burning the White House, attacking Baltimore, all of that But before that, as part of our French Revolution series, we did the Mseillers episode five hundred seven for people who haven't heard it. I know that you disagree on this. I think it is a thrilling National Anthem. I'm a little bit envious of it. And just to remind people the background to the Marseise written in seventeen ninety two as the infant French Republic was seriously facing the prospect of being strangled in its cradle by the invading armies of Austria and Prussia And this invasion was the opening shot in a war Britain was going to enter very soon afterwards following the execution of Louis theXteent And for both the American and the French revolutionaries Britain really constitutes the great rival, the great opponent to their respective revolutions And the consequence of this is decades of conflict So with the Americans, they're at war for eight years through the War of Independence, their Republic would not have been established without that war. And the French, what begins as a revolutionary warar will end up the Napoleonic wars and go on all the way from seventeen ninety three through to eighteen fifteen kind of on and off And of course, this isn't just a military or naval conflict. it is an ideological one because Both the American and the French Revolutions establish republics And those republics proselytize a kind of militant repudiation of monarchy Britain is the monarchy part excellence. But the way that ideological conflicts work It's a ratchet effect, isn't it? So the more radical one side becomes, the more the other side doubles down on its previous ideological commitments And that's true of British monarchism, isn't it? that people more and more come to see the British monarchy, not just as part of the furniture. Yeah, but the more that tax evaders in the United States and Jacaps in France rail against the principle of monarchy, the more that the Edmund Bures of this world to construct a kind of ideological defense of it and to actually see monarchy not just as something they've inherited, but as an intrinsically good and worthwhile thing in itself All the Jack Abreys played by Russell Crow Do you want to see a guillotine in Piccadilly? Yes Absolutely, the more that the French, for instance, go on about their republic, the more the British cling to the ideal of monarchy, the figure of George III as, you know, Fmer George, kind of homely lovable figure as opposed to the menacing figure of Robespierre or Napoleon And of course, with the French Revolution, you also get the whole Closing down churches and turning Notre Dame into a temple of reason kind of thing. Britain is a very god fearing country in this period. So people like Nelson absolutely appalled by what they see as this kind of atheistic state that has emerged across the channel confirms them in their opinion that they are fighting people who have absolutely terrible opinions. They're anti monarchy, they're anti Christianity. And because of that The inevitable corollary is that God must be. on Britain's side, and if that is the case, then why shouldn't he save the king? Yeah, it seems perfectly reasonable to ask God to save the king And I think that particularly during the Napoleonic wars where it's a life or death struggle Britain This request to God to save the British king, it's not an idle formula I mean, it is a really Desperately heartfelt prayer, I think. wouldould you agree with that? Well, I mean, if you're sayiling to action at Trafalgar or something You believe that you are on the side of what is right, that God is with you? Yeah, that Britain is defending God's cause against these atheistic cul Frenchmans are their corrupt usurping tyrant the corsican monster. So yeah, absolutely. I think people take it really seriously and the Jack Abrey character. Is it or Nelson? I mean, they're brilliant examples of that. Yeah. And so the God aspect of the God Save the King is important. and this is something that I hadn't really appreciated until I started looking into the backstory of God Save the King It is in this period, the Napoleonic Wars that God Sved the King is enshrined as the national anthem. And I'm putting the emphasis there on the word anthem and I think we're so used to that as a phrase today that it's very easy get what anthem originally meant, which is essentially a kind of a musical setting for a religious Again, the context for why it matters that the God saved the King is anthem is the fact that Britain sees itself at being a war with a militantly atheist rival And this atheism for the British is focused by the fact that On the fourteenth of july seventeeenh ninety five The Musseise is officially enshrined France's Chantneacionat, so the national song And the British respond to that by terming God save the king An some. So they are effectively sacralizing the idea of a national soul They are explicitly Christianizing it. And this formulation, I'm glad to say, is so influential By the end of the nineteenth century, so in eighteen seventy nine Even the French succumb and the masseise is retrospectively titled by the French. national hymn rather than a national song Can I ask a question about you say it's at this point that it becomes enshrined as the country's anthem? But it's enshrined by convention. rather than by parliamentary statute or something. Yeah. It's increasingly called an anthem. It's something that people sing as a Christian as well as a kind of patriotic duty. Well doesn't that sort of fit the idea that the British have for themselves, that their constitution It's made up of practices that have evolved over long periods of time organically like a tree, rather than being artificially created in a lab Like the 's experiments of the United States and France. Yeah, because bothoth the Starpangle banner, even though that obviously becomes a national anthem much later, but it is written during a period of war with Britain as You know, the Mares just precedes the war with Britain They're both songs that are appropriate to self consciously revolutionary states, republics which have eliminated a monarchy and all the kind of traditions that are associated with a monarchy And therefore, both the American And the French revolutionary states have to draw up constitutions from scratch and they are incredibly famous aspects of the republics that get established in America and France respectively. Whereas Britain, by contrast has kept its monarchy and its constitution is unwritten And this is a cause of great pride to the British. They don't need kind of new fangled constitutions because their constitution stretches back over the centuries ultimately all the way back to the Anglo Saxons. And the Constitution has evolved over time in kind of fits and starts And God save the king as an anthem is perfectly suited to such a state because God save the king. Unlike the Marceds, unlike the Star Sangled banner was not written in response to a specific occasion, so you know an attack or naval assault or anything like that. Yeah. Instead, no one is really sure where it came from by the Napoleonic period People don't know who'd written it. they don't know when it had been written it. they don't even really know why it had been written But like the Constitution, it just exists. But there are various theories where it's come from, of course, and we'll be delving into some of them. But justust to give people a sense, there's still no really definitive answer to some of those questions, is there? Well, we will come to this, but you're right that in the wake of the Napoleonic Wars, the establishment of God Save the King as a national anthem in Britain Obviously British historians are really intrigued to try and work out where it might have come from. and I think particularly who might have composed it and they want to have composer who is of sufficient status it's a properly national composer. So one very popular theory in the Victorian period is that God saved the king was written by Henry Purcell, who the great seventeenth century composer, probably the greatest English composer. I mean that's not saying much, I guess. Dido Aeneas. Dido Aeneas, the first great opera written in English. I mean you know, he's capable of writing all kinds of different music. and he does have this status as the great English composer. You can see why people might have wanted him to have composed God to Sor the King There's another very popular candidate who's earlier than Pasal a century earlier. So in the sixteenth century, And this was a keyboard virtuzo who had the unimprovable name of John Bull. Yeah, he couldn't make this up. He I mean, he did compose a melody that I mean, if you I guess if you're kind of half deaf, it vaguely resembles God save the King But I think the reason that people are so keen on having John Bull as the composer of God saave the King is his name because John Bull You know, it's the It's the figure of Britain, isn't it? It is indeed. There's also the fact that he is an Elizabethan. and so that is to push the origins of the National anthem back to the age of Francis Drake and William Shakespeare, you know, the great golden age of England And in nineteen thirty seever A weelfsman. Great have a weelfsman on the side.. have a weelfsman. a musicologist called Le Henry He proposed that Gods would have be been Gods the quQueen then that it had been composed on the direct command of Elizabeth F in fifteen eighty eight to celebrate the defeat of the Amada. Well of that Well, sadly, there is absolutely zero evidence for this. and it has to be said that Le Henry is a faintly sinister figure and an implausible figure. So he was a drruid. I mean that's not to cast aspersions on drruids But Druids are basically invented in the nineteenth century, so that would imply an enthusiasm for Boger' hory. R He's no stranger to contrivances. No. He was also biggerist, so I think maybe not necessarily to be trusted. onn top of that He was also a notorious pro Nazi and got locked up in nineteen forty as a security threat. So I think Late Henry isn't entirely Trustwthy as a musicologist. Yeah. Do you have another musicologist in the wings? Do Fortunately, pererhaps with very different ideological leanings, who may be able to resolve this murky question for us. I do Dominic, and this is a guy called Percy A. Sklls. Now on one level, He is very much not a sand brookian figure So he was vice president of the Vevegetarian Society And there was nothing he enjoyed of an evening than a delicious slap up dinner. containing a couple of carrots. So that was what he would be served with. So he's incredibly thin and spindly. He would be unwelcome to get together with their producers at Wiltonss in Mayfair. Yes, he would. He absolutely would. On the other hand, here's a man who has no time for kind of ing academics He's always being fabulously rude about academics he doesn't respect in reviews. and I think there's a slight qualityambroke about that. Yeah. And he definitely loved Britain as well Well, he ticks some boxes but not others. Yeah Yeah We wouldn't have lunch together, That's for sure So in nineteen forty two Obviously, Britain fighting the war against Nazis and all of that. He published a book on God saave the King you can see, you know the kind of the mood of national beleigament, why he would be interested in that. Yeah. This book is clearly inspired by this kind of general mood of patriotism, but I think also with impatience with kind of clowns, sinister clowns like Lee Henry So he wrote in the introduction to this book Few subjects have been discussed with such general irresponsibility, statements that have no rational foundation whatever, being seriously repeated on every occasion when the subject is brought forward gaining credence by mere force of repetition Okay, so what does he think His conclusions are essentially, I think today accepted as far as I can tell by musicologists as being pretty conclusive. So first of all He nails down the precise point at which the song goes viral And this is in the autumn of seventeen forty five in seventeen forty five is one of the most dramatic years in the whole of eighteenth century British history. Because on the twenty third of july, seventeen forty five, Prince Charles Edward Stewart, who is better known as Bonnie, Prince Charlie, had landed on an island off the west coast of the Scottish Highlands So Bonny Prince Charie was the grandson of James VII of Scotland, who was also James II of England. and back in sixteen eighty eight British came to call the glorious Revolution been forced into exile essentially for being too Catholic absolutist, too keen to model himself on the example of the suun King, the kind of the great French absoluteutist. Body Prince Charlie's aim in landing in the Highlands was to claim British throne back for the Stuarts, the line of James II for his father the old prettender And to achieve this, Bonnie Prince Charlie needs to claim the throne back for the Stuarts from the dynasty that has replaced the Stuarts. and this is the house Hanover and specifically it is one of the many Georges that reign in the eighteenth century. and this is George II George II is the king of Great Britain. He is also the elector of Hanover. so he's a German, but more saliently from the point of view of the British elites. otestant, whereas the Stuarts are Catholic And so at stake in the autumn of seventeen forty five, when Bonnie Prince Charlie has landed in Scotland and is preparing an army to attack the Hanoarian monarchy, you've got two rival versions of Marchy. And the first is the Stuart vision of Marchy The Stuarts claim they are the rightful ruling dynasty because their legitimacy derives from God and from heredity they are descended from Mary Queen of Scots and before that the line of the Stuarts, reaching back all the way into the Middle Ages. And essentially you may not like their their religion, you may not like their absolutest trends, but God has decreed that they should be king and you can't just kind of sack them because you don't like that And this is the view of lots of people still in Britain, and we have actually done a series about one of those people already this year. and that is Samuel Johnson. Yeah, the Tory tradition. Tory tradions. James Boswell as well, his biographher bothoth of them were Jacobites So Jacobites named after Jacobus, the Latin for James But then the other view of Monarchy is the Hanoarian one. The supporters of the Hanoavarian monarchy, George II They say, well, the Hanoarians are the rightful ruling dynasty of Britain because their legitimacy derives less from heredity than from an act of parliament And that is to transform the crown not into an inheritance that derives from divine right, you know, the favor of God or whatever But it's specifically a gift of Parliament And Britain is a Protestant country and therefore it needs a Protestant king. And those are the two visions of monarchy that have kind of been brought together in seventeen forty five. So the nature and character of monarchy in Britain is a massively live issue and it's threatening a civil war. But one vision is seen as more modern and is more widely accepted prosperous kind of south of Great Bitain, hasn't it? And that is the Hanoveria model, what you might call the Whig model. The idea that the crrown gets its legitimacy from Parliament But that's not the case on the periphery in the wilder parts, which is precisely why Bonnie Prince Charlie has headed for the Highlands of Scotland. Yes, where actually he does tremendously well because the clans there kind of flock to his cause and his banner And by the autumn of seventeen forty five, Bonnie Prince Charlie seems to have the whole of Scotland at his feet. So he's captured Edinburgh. He's defeated a Hanoavarian army at a place called Preston Pandans, about ten miles outside Edinburgh and he is preparing to invade England And the news of this has reached London, which is a city overwhelmingly loyal to the Hanoarian settlement There is massive panic. There are kind of runs on banks There are loads of caricatatures showing terrifying Scotsmen in kilts Advancing on London. You know, absolute mood of trauma But this trauma generates kind of immense effusions of pro Hanovarian sentiment they're kind of rallying to the Hanoarian flag It is this kind of mood of pro Hanifarian mingled panic and enthusiasm Percy sculls in his book on God Save the King demonstrated was when God saave the King first erupts onto the national stage. And when I say national stage, I kind of mean it literally because it makes it debut as National Soul a theatre at Dominic where we have done a show. Yeah, the theatre Royal Dreury Lane, no less So one of my very favorite theaters And we can day this precisely, can't we? To C. Is is September, seeptember, seventeen forty five? twenty eighth of septtember, seventeen forty five, and an announcement appeared in the generenal advertiser and I will read it We hear Mr. Lacey, master of H hisis Majesty's Company of comedians at the Theatater Royal in Dreury Lane, applied for leave to raise two hundred men in defense of hisis Majesty's person and government in which the whole company of players are willing to engage. so that is they are rallying to the defence of George II. Right. And that same evening, At the theater role, they're staging a performance of Ben Johnson's comedy The Alchemist, and everyone sits in the audience and watches it and it ends Lots of applause, the curtain comes down. and then before people can leave their seats in Theatater Royal, the curtain goes back up. It kind of rises unexpectedly And we are told by another newspaper, the Daily advertiser, what happens next The audience were agreeably surprised by the gentleman belonging to that house performing the anthem of God save our noble King The universal applause it met with, being on chord with repeated huusars, we love a huar, sufficiently denoted in how just an abhorrence they hold the arbitrary schemes of our invidious enemies and detest the despotic attempts of papal power So what you've got in this scene who have volunteered to defend King George and Protestant freedom againainst the designs of the Stuarts in the form of Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Pope, menacing Highlanders and kilts, all these kind of terrifying enemies. they're standing there on the stage in London's preeminent theatre And they are singing this incredibly patriotic song. And obviously, if you are a fan of the Hanoarian settlement as everyone is in this theatre, I mean, this is absolute catnip. You couldn't be happier about it. You know, we've got a lot of listeners who are actors themselves. So the actor Samuel West is a listen to this and would I would pay good money to see him standing on stage. Belting out God say's over the king. H he recruited all his mates to join in? to fight the king against Britain's enemies pay. enormous sums of money to see him doing that. And they keep doing this night after night Yeah It generates massive enthusiasm among the theatre going public of London And it starts to spread. So by the tenth of October the great rival of the theatre Royal in Drey Lane, which is the theatre in Covent Garden They start singing God save the king. You know, if you can't beat them, join them. It's gone viral. And it starts to spread out into the provinces. So by the fourth of November this new craze for singing God save the King has reached barath, we have reports By the end of the following year, so By which point Bonnie Prince Charlie has launched his abortive invasion of England Turn back at Derby He's been defeated at the Battle of Callodon He has fled Scotland forever, disguised as a maid. This song is being heard everywhere and I think it's no exaggeration to call it You know, the first pop song. The first pop song. It is sung everywhere in a way that I think songs had not previously been Okay It is easily the most effective piece of propaganda in the whole story of the Jacobite invasion. You know It's a massive kind of popular triumph of pro Hanovarian sentiment And so obviously George II thinks this is great. I'm suddenly the star of a pop song. I mean, what's not to like? Who wouldn't like that? But is there perhaps a twist? Of course there is, always. This whole kind of emergence of God save the King is a pro Hanoarian anthem. It is shadowed by a certain irony Because the twenty eighth of september seventeen forty five, when it is sunng on state of Theatre Royal That may have been when God saved the king First hits the west end But as Skulles acknowledges in his book, The song itself is much older We know when it goes viral, but we still don't know when it was written or who wrote it So Skulls is very contemptuous of the idea that a single composer, whether it's John Bull, whether it's Henry Busll, whether it's anyone who you can put a name to, that anyone named had written the melody. And his argument is that it emerges communally and that its true origins will never be known. And I gather that musicologists today still agree. And just to reiterate, I mean, that is what makes it perfect if you're a fan of the British Constitution becausecause it's organic. It's organic. It's kind of risen up from the hearts of the people So that's the tune. What about the words? This is where the irony really kicks in Because Skull in his book quotes a letter that was written on the tenth of october seventeen forty five to David Garrick, the greatest actor of the day In this letter Surprise is expressed by the writer of the letter, the sudden craze for God's saave the king The guy who's writing to Garick says. These are the very words and music of an old anthem that was sung in Stain. James's Chapel for King James II. King James II is the Catholic absolute is grandfather of Borny Prince Charlie. So he is the kind of Uber Jacobite Skulls quotes other contemporary letters, other contemporary sources, and these are all making the same claim God saave the King had not originally been a Han of Varian song Jacobite saw And he has this brilliant phrase, The British National anthem is a turn coat It's gone from being a Jacobite anthem to being a Hanovarian anthem So Absolute seens Anthems were always malleable. So all through these six episodes we'll be doing stories about anthems that were rewritten or reinterpreted. We've already had examples when we did the stast Bangled banner But I mean, one of the things about God saved the King is, I mean, we've already rewritten ourselves in our own lifetimes because we switched from God save the Qeen to God save the King, didn't we? Yeah without even really thinking about it. It's not like somebody told us to do it, It just was the natural thing to do. So Because there am I right in saying there's no approved state sanctioned text. There is no authorized version. So you will find a version on, say, the Royal familyamily's website. Yeah. but it's not kind of legally prescribed in the way that the masseiseise is.. We heard the legislation required to inscribe Starsbankle Bano the American national an that it's always been incredibly easy for people to rewrite So Those lines that I quoted from the newspaper report when it was first sung on the stage of Drury Lane in seventeen forty five, I mean, they are ambiguous, so just to repeat them God save our Lord, the King, longong live our noble king I mean, it's not clear which ' referring to. I mean, it could be The Stuart Kings as well as the Hanoarian kings A if you're not naming the king, if you're not specifying who the king is, it's pretty easy to appropriate it on both sides. That said, what becomes the second verse is clearly, I think. written by Hanoarian supporters. So to remind people the second verse, mayay he defend our laws and ever give us cause to sing with heart and voice, God save the king. That is clearly a celebration of the Hanoarian setettlement. Well, the thing about defending laws is code, isn't it? really? praising a king who is willing polled parliamentary sovereignty. the laws that are issued by parliament. So it is absolutely not a celebration of, say the divine right of kings. That's a nice reposs to people who say they don't like God saved the king because it implies fealty to an absolute monarch or something like that. It absolutely doesn't It's a tribute to the constitutional settlement of sixteen eighty eight to eighty nine. So the King in Parliament Yeah It's pure wiggory. That's what it is. Yeah. Well, not just wiggory, there is scope there even for those who are more radical than the Whigs over the course of the Napoleonic wars to feel that yeah, we can get behind this song as a properly unifying anthem Obviously, royalists can sing it So too, on occasion, radicals who are pushing at the absolute limits of what is viewed by the British establishment as politically acceptable because they can appeal to the king. as defender of their rights actually against parliament, against the wiggish government or the Tory goovernment or whatever. And there is an amazing example of this that happens four years after the Battle of Waterloo So in eighteen nineteen Godsave the King is played by a brass band at a great mass meeting that is held in Manchester to demand universal suffrage And this mass meeting is charged by the local cavalry and people die And this massacre comes to be called the Peter Loo Massacre because it's held at St. Peter's Fields. in Manchester It's one of the great foundational moments in the emergence of kind of radical tradition in Britain But there you have, God save the King. being su So it has mass popularity And when foreign visitors come to Britain, And they hear this song being sung basically everywhere in theaters, in pubs, in the street, whatever, at meetings. None of them have any doubt that they are listening to something novel But nothing like this really has kind of emerged before And to quote Sulls again, from Roman times the world had known the visible national symbol of the flag Henceforth it was to know the audible national symbol of the song Because I suppose Britain emerges from the Napoleonic wars with such incredible prestige, there's a feeling that it has triumphed over France with its masseers. God save the king or at least the tune of God saved the King, notot the words, but the tune. comes to be seen as something that aspirational countries other than Britain should buy into. Yeah And so they start adopting the melody of God'save the King. in fact, this proceeds in the Napoleonic Wars. It's something that's been going on throughout the second half of the eighteenth century. So Holland has done it, Denmark A host of German states do it including Prussia Russia briefly gets in on the act then after Napoleon on it was Switzerland and Greece. And in all the melody of God saved the kings, so not the words, but the melody ends up being adopted at one point or another by some twenty states these states range from Iceland to Hawaii So I had no idea about this. It's kind of Stufy Lieichchtenstein still have it. They't they? Be because I remember England playing Liechtenstein. being an amusing quirk that the same tune was played twice in the two national anthems. Yeah, and the England fans boo it when it's the Lieichtenstein National anthem, and then they cheer it when it's the English one. like to proud the English. Yeah. And actually I think in Switzerland as well God saave the King provided the tune for the Swiss National anthem up unt I think the nineteen sixties So quote Skull, Stomink. Yeah. We can actually claim that on that Saturday night in september seventeenh forty five British invented national anthems So Hurray for us? Yeah, Hazar for us. Or is it Hazar Because of course, Britain. is not competing in the World Cup England and Scotland are this has certain consequences, which we will be exploring. after the break sciting, come back after the break This episode is brought to you by the Times and the Sunday Times Tom is another summer of top international football returns It's truly incredible, isn't it? too think about how much the world has changed between the various tournaments. Looking back to when England hosted back in nineteen sixty six, everyone in the crowd supporting England were waving union jacks What fascinating trends does that illustrate? And I suppose The last time the United States hosted the tournament was in nineteen ninety four. and the mood in America in the early nineteen nineties, you know, the Cold War was over. Clinton was in the White House. I was there for that. I was in Boston. Really? I mean, that's an aspect of the story that's very rarely reported on your presence. So you know what this reminds me of Tom? It reminds me The future is always uncertain, you never know what's coming But the facts need not be uncertain And when the world feels like it's moving too fast, the times and the Sunday times empower you to make smarter, more confident decisions. Click or tap the banner now to learn more or visit thetimes. com Hello everybody. Now As those of you who are good children will know here in Britain. On the twenty first of June. It's Father's Day, but not just here in Britain It's also Father's Day on the twenty first of june in the United States In Canada, and in the Republic of Ireland So those are four countries that are united Dads who love to listen to the rest is history. 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So if you want to give B Father's Day gift there's ever been in history ever If we say this as the presenters of the restl is history, you know what to do So good, so good. New markdowns up to seventy percent off are at Nordstrom rack stores now. Stock up and stay big on shoes, tops, dresses, accessories, and more must haveves for summer. Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices That's why you rack say the quQeen, the fascist regime. It made you a mortoron potential hight bomb God save the queen. She ain't no human being and there's no future in England dreaming So apologisies everybody. That was Johnny Rotten, John Leyden there singing God Save the Queen. The Sx pistols hit released during the Silver Jubilee of Elizabeth II in nineteen seventy seven Now, whether it reached number one or number two is still very controversial among historians, isn't it, Tom? It is. The accepted wisdom now is that it actually was number one and then the chart was fixed by the BBC. relegated to number two I actually think it's perfectly plausible that it actually finished at number two and that a lot of this is just based on urban legend. However, that's not the issue This was an attack on the monarchy, so it appeared to be accusing the quQueen of presiding over a fascist regime of not being a human being. and no future. Yes. But it's an attack on Jim Callahghan's Brain, which is sad But actually This is a tribute to the power of this song. So you described God saave the King in the first half. You said it was no exaggeration to say it was the world's first pop song. Yeah, But it's a pop song that is still going strong in the nineteen seventies ' the kind of longest running British earworm, I guess. Right that we've had in our culture. Interesting that they don't copy the tune. They copy the words but not the tune, the sex pistols. I think because it's so famous in Britain that you don't need the tune. you just say God save the quQueen and it kind of evokes the whole kind of Majesty and prestige of the National Anthem By this point kind of over two hundred years old And in the course of that time, it's picked up a lot of baggage So even before the sex pistols parody it. Yeah. It has for a long time been snaered at by intellectuals, I think by the Bian Ponson, Bian Ponson who you're so keen on. And it's seen by them as basically a song for blimps that it's fusty and it's dusty. embarrassing and person who comments on this most famously is George Orwell, who in nineteen forty one, so one year before Skulls published his book on God Save the King famous wrote It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during God Save the King than of stealing from a por box. And that's still true today I mean, absolutely that's true today. Sure. Yeah. You were talking in the previous episode about the reverence that Americans show the National Anthem. Yeah, there's an obvious contrast there. So you talked about Jimy Hendrix playing Starpangled Banner at Woodstock in nineteen sixty nine generating great controversy The following year, Jimy Hendrx is in Britain and the Isl of White playing at the festival there few weeks before he dies. And there he plays God saved the Queen in exactly the same way and it has no reaction whatsoever 's interesting isn't it Yeah cares at all And I think to this day I mean, how could you sum Maybe people have a remainerish tendency? might that be the? Yeah? People who enjoy our sister podcast, the rest is politics. Yes. I think People who take the national anthem seriously are seen as kind of low status. I mean ye, know if you worry about the color of your passport or your enthusiast for the national anthem, you'll see and it's a bit kind of below the salt So there's a classic example of this happened just a few months after the Brexit vote in twenty sixteen Tor and P for Romford, which is in Essex. T notot the kind of place where BBC presenters necessarily go very often This is a guy called Andrew Rossendale and he called for the BBC to end its nightly broadcast by playing God Save the Queen, which is what the BBC had always used to do. Yes and it' been kind of abandoned I Kirsty Walk, a presenter of Newsnight on BBC two, who I think had not voted for Brexit safe to say And she said, We're incredibly happy to oblige. Good night And then they play the sex pistols, God save the quQeen. So it's hilarious. It bads. Hilarious. See, controversially this will I don't think this was a st downlisteners because this is just plain to my image, but it's actually what I genuinely think I think lots of countries actually do end their TV coverage r with the national anthem. And I don't actually think it's a weird thing to do. I think it's good for social cohesion. And I don't even think I've been in American high schools where they pledgge to just the flag and they do all that kind of stuff. And that the standard British thing to do is to sneer at it. And George Orwell of course commented on that But actually I don't think it is worthy of being snered out. I think it's actually quite good for people to have symbols and a sense of collective loyalty. Anyway, there you go. A fair point, well made But the fact remains that people in Britain do tend snare at the National anthem And so Why is that? Why are people ready to sneer at it here than I know in France or America or whatever. And I gets kind of a whole range of possible reasons I mean, one undoubtedly is they find it boring Musicians have been complaining about God saved the King for a very long time. Soil Gilbert as in Gilbert and Sullivan, complained that it was contemptible doggarore. Although actually many, many I mean greater composers than Gilinam Sullivan actually thought it was rather good. So Bach and Beethoven and Benjamin Britton, they all composed variations on it That's good enough for me So yeah, the sense that it's a dirge, as we said, I think that's one reason why people look down on it. Another reason might be that they're Republicans So the king bit of God save the King. And even during the Revolutionary Wars with France, we said that it was a unifying anthem But there were those in Britain who identified with the Revolution, who were not persuaded that to seeing God save the king was in some way a progressive thing to do. And in that period some of the parodies of God Save the King were much more savage than anything that the sex pistols came up with. So I'll sing one here. Long live great Gilatine, who shaves off head so clean of queen or king Whose power is so great that every tool of state, drered of his mighty weight Wonderful thing So I mean, Jack Aubrey would not like that would he would not. and that takes us back to that last episode about Star Mangle banner that anthems are never fixed, that people can always reinterpret them and adapt them and put in new words to suit their own political ends and they will do throughout the rest of this series. Yeah. And this is obviously happening throughout this period because all these other countries are coming up with their own words as well So God sa for the king, the problem might be with the king or it might be with God. You know, you might be a secularist. Do you think you know, we're in a modern age. It's all musty, dusty, fusty superstition. We don't want to bother with God. Does the whole British Empire thing. Yeah God saved the King became the anthem of British Empire. It was the anthem of the dominions, so South Africa, of Australia, of New Zealand, of Canada. And all those countries have evolved alternative anthems And so I think that generates a sense perhaps that God saved the King is something antiquated to be got rid of. And then there's the a kind of whole trend in historical takes on Britain. as kind of early modern state that has never managed to evolve. So this is a thesis that's particularly associated with Tom Nan Linda Colly, who wrote a famous book called Britain's kind of essentially arguing for this, the idea that Great Britain was a kind of leader in the early modern period but has never really gone the full course and is still is kind of still born as a modern state And therefore, God's Save the King is kind of representative of this. The fact that we're still singing something from the eighteenth century is an embarrassment. So that's another reason. This is such a sort of nineteen nineties language. It is very ninet nineteen eight. Yes, Ier, very nineteen nineties But then there is a simpler reason. We're doing this in honor of the F football World Cup And that is that you might feel uncomfortable about that saying God's because you are either a Scottish or English player or fan. And you are at the twenty twenty six World Cup because this I think, it does raaise issues for both the Scottish and the English teams to sing God save the king National Anthems are obviously a really important part of the World Cup, which is why we're doing the series we wouldn't be doing otherwise. I don't think we've said this, but I mean people who are listening you've never watched a match in the foootball World Cup Before every match, the two teams who are playing, you know, they line up and they sing along to their respective anthems. O if you are from Spain or Bosnia and Herzeovvenia, you hum along because those are anthems that don't actually have words And for most countries this you know is not controversial. Every country pretty much has a national anwer There is an issue for Scotland for England because both of them are constituent parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that means that they have the same national anthem, namely God saave the King, which is the British national anthem And the same is true of Wales and Northern Ireland and if they had qualified, then they would be facing the same problem. And the United Kingdom is Unique in halving, it's Cstituent nations compete separately in this way So when Spain play, you know Catalonia is not playing, when Germany play, you don't have Bavaria Canada is hosting it, you don't have Quebec appearing as a kind of separate teeam in the World Cup And so people may be wondering, well, how come home nations was they called England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. How come they enjoy this privilege. It's because football's earliest governing bodies are the home nations the English and Scottish and Welsh and Irish governing bodies long preceded the emergence of FIFA which administers the World Cup FIFA is a par forue by comparison So Scotland and England played the earliest international football match as recognized by FIFA in eighteen seventy two And that was thirty two years before the founding of FIFA and fifty eight before the first World Cup. and that's why Scotland and England where place Northern Ireland have their own and England actually, I don't know, I shouldn't leave England out. Wh they have their own distinct identities as teams that do not exist as like UN member States or whatever. Yes. And so I think if you're Scottish or English, this can be a cause of great patriotic pride You know, we got there first. it's our game. Yeah. Our governing bodies are much older than FIFA or the World Cup. Brilliant. But I think it does pose an issue on the national Anthem front. Of course And so the two nations who are competing in this year's World Cup. Scotland and England from Britain. They've come up with differing answers to this. oser to this question Because you said a second ago, Oh You know, when they come out at the World Cup By right, they would be lining up and singing the national anthem of their country, which is the United Kingdom of Greritain and Northern Ireland, which would be God saave the King. Yeah. But of course everybody who's listened to this podcast who is Scottish or knows anything about football knows that the Scots do not sing that anthem. And the thing just to say is that there is nothing inherently offensive About God save the king to Scots or even to very enthusiastic Scottish nationalists because Charles theId Rules King of the United Kingdom by virtue of his descent from the Stewarts, from Mary Qeen of Scots and that Stuart line Yeah, I mean, despite both the Hann of Aarians and the Stuart lines They are on the throne by virtue of their descent from Mary Queen of Scots and Scottish nationalist leaders have been perfectly happy to stick up for God's saake for the King. So Alex Salmond, who was the SMP's leader, the Scottish Nationalist Party's leader who first kind of put Scottish independence on the table as a serious prospect. In twenty fifteen when Jeremy Corbyn, the radically left wing leader of the Labour Party at the time, and he went to a battle of Britain memorial service. and he refused to sing, God save the Queen And Samon said that this was infantile Sammon was quite keen on the queen. Hed loved to talk to her about horse racing. They kind of mutual interest And then in the same month, Nicholas Sturgeon, who succeeded Alex Sammond as leader of the SMP, the Scottish Nationalist Party She joined the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh, opening a new railway line in the Scottish borders. The band struck up God saave the Queen and Nicolas Sturgeon sung it perfectly happily. Sam Augusto Yeah,s the gust tpe And the official policy of the SMP remains that should Scotland become an independent country, then they will retain monarchy. The monarchy would continue as something joining England and Scotland as it had done before the creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain in the early eighteenth century But that said, there is a very strong Republican strain the Scottish Independence movevement And in fact In Scotland, generally, enthusiasm for the monarchy is noticeably lower than it is, say, in England And I think that Enthusiasm for God saved the King in particular is shadowed in Scotland by a vague sense that say Bonnie Prince Charlie was fighting for Scottish independence in seventeen forty five this kind of The notion that is fostered by TV shows like Outlander and things like that. It has to be said that this is completely ahistorical. In Scotland, seventeen forty five, the the arrival of Bonny Prince Charlie. This is a Scottish Civil warar particularly between the Highlands and the lowlands, really. But there is, I think, a sense, wouldouldn't you say that Yeah A lot of people in Scotland kind of Bonnie Prince Charlie is promoted as a Scottish hero of independence. mean like Robert Bruce or William Wallace or someone like that, whichich he absolutely wasn't. I'm surprised Melil Gibson has't made a film about it. with the English as the villains. I mean, that is the perception of the Battle of Clodon of the whole enterprise. that Scotland versus England and yet again the bullying tyrannical English wipe the floor with the Scots. And as we say, this is completely a historical. The Battle Cluden was you know it's a battle fought between two competing visions of Scotland However, it is true that in that summer of seventeen forty five One of the numerous verses that is being written during this kind of first flush of God saave the King Mania does namechck rebellious Scots and express the hope that they will soon be crushed Billy Conolly picked up on this so the great Scottish comedian. he complained about it in a kind of very funny monologue But just to reiterate, you there are loads of lyrics being composed in this period So there are lyrics being composed that damned George II, for instance. People on both sides of the divide are coming up with lyrics all the time. So it's not surprising that there are Scottophobic lyrics coming from England, for instance. The same is true on the other side that Jackabout writers are writing hostile lyrics about the Hanoarians. But I think you could see that all this kind of swirl explains perhaps why God saved the King has less purchase in Scotland than it does in England because the historical reality doesn't really matter when you're dealing with a national anthem, as we saw in our previous episode What matters is exactly The tug of the heart strings. the emotions that they generate. You were saying the reason that it's not so popular in Scotland is because of the associations with the forty five Codon, whatever I think actually the real reason it's not so popular in Scotland is it's associated with England Right? Because English teams sing it, English supporters sing it and therefore by definition, Scottish fans do not want to sing it. Although Scottish fans did sing it for decades and decades But I agree I mean, it would be very odd, I think for say Scotland and England if they were playing in the World Cup Wh knows they may meet in the final So Scotland would have to qualify from the first group stage which they've never ever done. Well we will will time will tell. But I mean it would seem mad for both sides to stand there and sing absolutely. the same song, the same I it would be very, very funny. Sing it twice together And England playing against Scotland is a very you know, it's the oldest international Football rivalry. Yeah England were playing Scotland for football right the way up to the mid eighties. Yeahvery year. Home Nations championship. ye. Then that stops. But in another sport rugby, England continue to play Scotland every every year because there's this contest, the six nations where they were various countries play each other and that includes England and Scotland. And so going into the nineties, I guess Scottish rugby players had a particular incentive to try and come up with a new anthem And the one that they finally settle on is a song called Flower of Scotland, which had been composed in nineteen sixty six by a folk singer called Roy Williamson, who was one half of a folk duo Corries and very like the Star Spangled banner It was inspired by rousing national victory over a hated foe But this particular victory in the case of the Corries, was one that could be oneon six and a half centuries before. So it's not like the Starspangle banner inspired by something that the guy who composed it had seen. I mean this is going way, way back And the victory that it celebrates is the Battle of Bannock Byd which had been won by the Scottish king Robert Bruce over the English king Edward II in thirteen fourteen. And for those who haven't heard it, the song begins with a kind of rousing blast that's been lifted from Verdes's chorus for the Hebrew slaves And then you were back to the early fourteenth century, when the Scots won the greatest victory in their military history over a much larger English invasion force and It's a celebration of Bruce and his army who had stood against and I quote proud Edward's army and sent him homeward to think again you know what, thenough I think this is a massive durge. Flower of Scotland is a real durge. I mean, people say God sa the King is a durge. Flower of Scotland is very slow and it's kind of stately and slightly melancholy I think, in its melody. Do you know who would agree with you is the Secretary of the Scottish FA in I think around two thousand five really proposed getting rid of it because by this point it's been adopted by the Scottish rugby team and then it ends up being adopted by the Scottish football team. I mean, it has to be said, it does work well against England If you're Scottish and you're playing against England, it's brilliant Slightly less effective, I think, if you're playing rugby against the French or the Irish or the Welsh or or indeed the Italians all that stuff about sending proud Edward back home. Yeah. I think with the bagpipes it is kind of pretty stirring. That's what Call producer is saying Cum and Callum's mum cries at it all the time, apparently, so some people like it. And so the Scottish FA They end up adopting it as Scotland's national anthem just in time for the nineteen ninety eight World Cup in which Scotland had qualified and as he's pointed out Dominly, do not. gress beyond the first round And twenty twenty six will be the first time since nineteen ninety eight that Scotland have competed in a World Cup And so any fans of songs about early fourteenth century battles out there Tune in and listen to the Fire of Scotland. So who are they they're playing Brazil Morocco And the people of Haiti. can look forward to hearing the Scots. Yeah hearing about the Battle of Bannocketbur. Hearing about the proud Edwards. They love they talk of nothing else in Porteau Prance Now the England national team, when they line up, will not be singing a song about say England's great victory at Halladon Hill in the reign of Edward III over the Scots. Shn't think about Floden. Well I think I mean, it would be nice to have another early fourteenth century battleh I mean, it would be like us sing I guess singing a song about the Battle of Cressy, perhaps. I mean, I'd be so up for that, I can't tell you. Well, so the England team will be singing God saave the King. Yeah It's the national anthem of Britain and it's been cast as the National anthem of England. And I think the reason that they are happy to do that in a way that the Scots aren't is, I mean, the clue is they actually in the seex pistols song because in the opening line begins with the British National anthem, but then it's England dreaming And there is a tendency on the part of the English historically to allied Britain with England and the Scots and the Welsh and the Oorage, they love that. We sometimes do it in this podcast and in fact, the great historian AJP Taylor his book about British history between the Wars. Britain between the Wars was called England nineteen eighty nineteen forty five or whatever it was called He just absolutely leant into it and Churchill did that quite often in the Second World War and his rhetic. Well, Nelson did it as well England expects every man will do his duty I mean, that was still the case when England hosted the World Cup in nineteen sixty six because people in the crowd were waving not the flag of St. George, the English flag, but the Union Jack. Yeah. And now it's much likelily to be the cross of Stt George And that happened in, I think in the nineteen ninety six euros. It when England got to play Scotland So it was kind of Gaza and his great goal and All of that Dentist chair celebration. dentist chair celebration And I think it's not It may be a coincidence that Fire of Scotland was formally adopted as the Scottish anthem by the Scottish FA the following year H maybe not a complete coincidence It have been kind of informally used, I think since nineteen ninety three, but it gets kind of officially enshrined then. It has to be said, there is absolutely no sign that the English FA are remotely contemplating changing God save the King They seem perfectly happy with it But there are people who kind of mutter and say, well, we should have made English So I guess that the overwhelming favorite be Jerusalem. But you know what? in the seventies In the seventies when Don Revy was the England manager, modernizing England manager There was a brief period. I think we're tal about roughly between nineteen seventy four and nineteen seventy six when they adopted Land of hope and glory which is still a very British. it was controversial. It was controversial. A lot of people didn't like it and they said, brring back the old anthem Well, and another one is I've out of the My country, which again is about Britain Yeah I think the appeal of Jerusalem is it is very specifically about England. So for people who don't know, it was a poem written by William Blake great romantic poet So if you love a romantic poem, I mean it takes your box. Yeah. it refers to England as a green and pleasant land. so That's like lots of national anthems where you know which celebrate the natural beauty of the country. Nice topographical description. people love that in an anthem. I think the music is great. So written by Sir Hubert Perry and orchestrated by Elgar Yeah actually, George V fif dominic, so one of your great heroes. Yeah. He said he much preferred it to God save the king. So I think there's maybe a monarchist case for it. Maybe Blake, of course was a revolutionary You know, he got had up for seditious criticism of the monarchy. so it would appeal to anti monarchists as well. And it has this famous line Bring M me My Charot of Fire. So it has a kind of sporting link because Charot of Fire gave the name to the great whatever it was You just say whatever it was? whatever it was. omething about the Olympics. And also it's kind of about Jesus coming to England and going to Glastonbury specifically. so it would appeal to fans of music festivals. So I think it does tick a lot of boxes. and also I have to say, it is already the official hymn of a great English national sport. nameamely cricket. I think it's got a bit of a class orientation Jerusam there, doesnn't it? Because it's a very, very public school chapel I mean, for example, before we started broadcasting, Tabby was sing I think she used to sing it when she was a stoke. So you know, I wonder whether that might taint it for some listeners. Yeah, possibly. But I'm sure you could kind of soup it out. Maybe become the people's anthem Right. Change the lyrics exactly. Yeah P playay it at Glastonbury. I mean, who knows? I'm still in the Godd sa of the King campa I'm agnostic. Okay. As always, T. Yeah, as always. a professional card. Yeah I have So that is the n anthem of England and Scotland. Wow. Oh next dominly, we've got Germany, haven't we? England's old rivals at football? We'll be talking about all kinds of people actually. We'll be talking about the Kaiser, He'll be back. We'll be talking about hororsse vessel. Will we? the Nazi martyr? Maybe a little mention of Hitler. A littleittle mention of Hitler. Yeah, the East Germans, Conrad Adenauer it's actually Unbelievably interesting story in the story of the German. National Anthem, or should I say anthemms? Yeah, wonderful. Looking forward to that Dominiic. And then the Dutch So yeah, then we've got the Dutch, then we've got Brazil and then we have South Africa Okay, so if people want to listen to those episodes now can is there any way they can do so? Is there any mechanism? Well, there is Dominic and this will come as news to people. If you want to hear all of those episodes in one go and you're not already a member of the Rest is History Club, then you can go to the rest is history. com, sign up there and you get the whole lot pllus a whole load of supplementary benefits. The only way to get those benefits is to sign up on that website. am I right? Yes, That is correct. Okay, brilliant. We're going to go out on Jerusalem the perhaps future English national anthem Bye bye bye by Hello everyone, It's Tom Holland here. I am with the great Helen Caster. We're talking about the She wolves, the great Queens of Medieval England. We've already done two. today it's the third. Isabella of France who marries Edward the second A very problematic husband, it has to be said and she really does go the full she wolf on him. And here is a clip from that episode What about Edward The second, the anointed ing of England. That's a bigger problem, isn't it? A much bigger problem. He is the anointed king. He's now a prisoner. If they know one thing about Edward is that you can't trust his word. they can't put him back on the throne, not even if he's promising to be good, but what are you going to do? How How do you remove a king They do it the best way they know how, which is they depose him. They list all his many crimes and faults in Parliament and they say he has attacked his own people and therefore he must no longer be king. They also get him to abdicate You need belt and braces if you possibly can. And they declare that his young son Edward III is now king and he is crowned in february thirteen twenty seven. The problem now is you have an ex king in prison in custody and by September of thirteen twenty seven, already three plots to free him have been. discovered and have been foiled. This isn't a tenable situation. somethinghing has to be done. Edward, by this point is in Bark the Castle by Bristol and He conveniently dies. Um and What are the theories on How he dies, Helen? Well, there are many theories, including a theory that he didn't die at all and was in fact spirited away to become a hermit in Germany I don't buy that. as far as I can see from all the available evidence on the night of the twenty first of september thirteenth, twenty seven, Edward dies conveniently without explanation in his prison cell. Come on, Helen, we know how he died. Stop. Stop skirting around the issue, get to the poker. The Red hot poker. Well, what we know is this story gets told and of course it gets told because It encapsulates the whole story in hold one moment, does it not? What happens to the Red Hot poker? You're going to make me. A Red hot poker thrust into his anus to burn his intestines from the inside out. And the story goes that of course this is an excellent way to kill a king because it leaves the outside of his body untouched, so his body can be displayed also O symbolically, this is hearkening back to his ill fated and deeply unwise relationship with Piers Gaviston. How early do these stories appear? I mean, is it possible that this is historically accurate prove that it isn't and they do appear Q Quite early. I think generally on the rest of history, if there's a good story Let's go with it you know, and it's not completely implausible. We'll go with it. So let's say let does he has a red hot poker, shoved up his arse and that's the end of Edward I second. Thanks very much for listening and if you'd like to hear the first two episodes, then go to the rest ishistory. coma sign up there, but I can't believe you haven't already done that