Reforming global multilateral institutions

Thanks for listening to The Rest is Politics. Sign up to The Rest is Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to the rest is politics.com. That's the rest is politics.com. The around war. We're facing a witnessing of all these uh international order based on rules. Real allies are like real friends. They tell each other the truth no matter what. When it comes to our relationship with the US, uh I mean we want to keep that uh transatlantic bond. But if you go into the details, what you see is that we have an open trade war which was opened unilaterally by the US administration. I do believe that Europe needs to be a force of good because our enemies what they want is to have a more fragmented Europe. leaders. I know Britain sadly is not in the European Union, but what would you like to see the UK? I I would like to definitely to have the UK on board again. I think that the framework has changed because of Brexit, but on the other hand, I think that uh societies can make mistakes, and I think it was a mistake for the UK to leave the European Un ion. This episode is brought to you by IG. If you're listening to Leading, the chances are that you're someone who thinks seriously about politics, about economics, and your own financial future. So here's something genuinely worth knowing. IG's flexible stocks and shares ISA lets you withdraw and top up money within the same tax year without losing your taxree-f allowance. And that is all on top of charging zero commission and zero account fees. This ISA season they're giving away up to £3,000 cash back when you transfer your existing ISA over to IG. Use the code ISA leading. That's Isa L E A D I N G. Search I G dot com to find out more. I G trade, invest prog,ress. Your capital is at risk, ISA rules, tax rules and TNCs apply. Cashback offer is for new customers only and cannot be used in conjunction with other promotions. Offer ends fifth April 2026. Other fees may app ly. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Acrobat Studio. In politics, data plays a massive and increasingly important role in influencing policy. And of course, it's not just politics, the lots of roles that rely on information on data, which is why Acrobat Studio is a must. Trevor Burrus Because if you think about it, I mean it doesn't matter whether you're a civil servant trying to get stuff together on special educational needs or whether you're trying to make a new decision on a business, you're endlessly trying to generate reports, presentations, summaries, insights. And what this does, the Adobe Acrobat Studio is it's a PDF space and it's AI-powered, and it turns those documents into summaries and insights. Doing the stuff which is actually the kind of backbone of what a consultant does or a civil servant does with a lot of their time. It helps you manage documents and transform insights into standout content so you can go from idea to creation in record time or within an AI-powered workflow. So whatever you want to do, you can do that with Acrobat. Learn more and try it out on Adobe.com. Now are all the traitors present? Let's get started, shall we? From rags to riches. I'm so sick of this. Working like a dog and being treated worse. Yorkshire to New York reclaimers, you and me. A life dedicated to revenge. Let's make this an occasion to remember a woman of substance on channel 4 stream now welcom to the Restless Politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. And our more obsessive listeners may remember a restless politics question time a few years ago when I was asked which is my favorite government building around the world. And we're in it. It's La Moncloa, which is the home of the Spanish President. The Prime Minister. We call you Prime Minister, but the Spanish call you president. But this is a very modern, very bright, very classy building, which is kind of the image that uh President Sanchez tries to project of himself and of Spain. But what's really interesting, when we announced that we were going to be interviewing you on the podcast last week, we were inundated with suggestions and comments and questions. And I think they showed just how polarizing politics is right now. We had lots of people saying, ask him about his growth promoting liberal immigration policies. Ask him about his amazing record on renewables, ask him about paternity pay, ask him about a bit rise in the minimum wage, and above all, ask him about a very, very strong position that he's taken on some of the foreign policy issues. Gaza more, lately, Iran. And then your critics would say that he's got this very rickety coalition and he's only been able to put through three budgets in eight years, and he's had to rely on these kind of strange collection of separatist parties. And there's the stuff that's been a lot in the media about corruption, and there's lots on the pro-side, and there's lots on the anti-side. And we want to cover all of that. But I want to start, if I may, with I don't know whether we'll this will get us off on the wrong foot, but telling you why I was in this building twenty odd years ago. It was with Tony Blair to persuade Jose Maria Aznar to get involved in the Iraq War. Oh, okay. So I just wonder whether that's a good place to start because it shows how much Spain has changed between now and then. It's been a while. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? I do though. Well, thank you very much for for having me and uh ready to and happy to answer all these questions. And as you said already, I think that uh Spain has uh shifted its approach when it comes to this illegal wars. That if you take the experience of the Iraqi war, it didn't bring anything good for the Middle East uh for Europe and for the whole world. So we need to have the courage to uh learn lessons and uh look for other solutions in order to uh resolve most of these instability uh challenges that we're fac of President Trump and Israel's action in Iran. Was that a difficult decision? How long did the decision take you? Did you think about it for many hours? Did you debate with your team? I I debated with my team. I debated of course uh within the the coalition government uh, I also, you know, thought about it uh because uh you know this has been a very consistent and very coherent uh position when it comes to international politics. Because we're facing a weaknessing of all these uh international order based on rules. And uh since the Ukrainian war and afterwards the Gaza uh strip war and nowadays the Iran war, I think it's very important to have a consistent approach when it comes to fulfill uh our obligations in the international um realm and of course a fulfilling international legality. This uh has been our approach when the US administration asked us uh to use our military uh bases in the south and of Spain, and we of course reject the use of these military bases to let's say deploy their military capabilities in the Middle East. What was going on in your mind in terms of thinking what price might I have to pay for this. What might Donald Trump do to punish me for that? Well of course of course you know, there there's always a trade-off, uh there's always uh this kind of uh debate within uh our government. But at the end of the day, it's also true that uh, you know, uh real allies are like real friends. They tell each other the truth no matter what. And uh, when it comes to our relationship with the US, uh I mean the whole European Union. It is true that we want to keep that uh transatlantic bond. But if you go into the details, what you see is that we have an open trade war, which was opened unilaterally by the US administration. There's also a question mark when it comes to the respect of our territorial integrity. That means Greenland. And of course, Europe is not in the negotiations process when when it comes to the uh security European architecture uh and uh and the end of the Ukrainian war. So at the end of the day I think that it's important to strengthen the European pillar. That will uh bring us to have a stronger, I believe, uh transatlantic relationship in the coming years. What didn't happen is a common European position. I mean what what happened was uh a sense of splintering. And I'm I'm just wondering what lessons we can learn from this. Is there more that Europe, UK, Canada could have done in advance to have a joint position on this rather than end up with everybody going in different directions. Well th there's actually no uh common position even in the US uh uh politics uh within the US uh society. So this is uh a unilateral war that uh has been started by two nations, by two governments uh without uh consulting, without coordinating with uh their allies. And this is uh I think very very all very important to to keep in mind. And afterwards, uh the consequences of all this war, not only casualties, uh instability and security, as the Iraqi war brought us uh for in Europe and also uh across the world. Also for the global south and for our citizens will meet uh uh an erosion of our welfare state and of course uh the middle class and working class incomes and let's say uh welfare. No, but Prime Minister, um your position on international law uh was the normal position for everybody five years ago, ten years ago. And normally we would say a US President needs to go to Congress, he should try to make some kind of argument to the United Nations, he should speak to his allies. So five years ago, you would expect Ursula van der Leyen, the German Chancellor, Macron, the Canadians, the Brits all to come out on your position. But something's changed. Now they all come out in fifteen different positions. So what what's happened to the world in the last five years? Why are they not all saying this is clear, this is international law. In my view there's um uh a wave of far right that is uh undermining also international order and uh uh the international order based on rules. Do you see Trump as being far right? Uh I see that uh there's a clear challenge uh coming from the US administration when it comes to uh weakening and undermining uh international order. This is point number one. Point number two I think that uh they are also profiting uh from the lack of a political willness from nations before the current US administration to reform and upgrade the international order to the twenty first century. But that doesn't mean that we have to go back to nineteenth century. What we want and we need to do is to fix what is not working in the international order, but also to keep the things that are working and that, for example, brought us this period of peace that we have profit over the last decades. So the dilemma is not to have a old and new international order. The dilemma is to have uh upgrading uh international order to the twenty first century or to go back to nineteenth century and of course to have a law of the force. Do you f do you feel quite lonely politically? I was thinking about it No, I don't think so. I think I think that at the end of the day, if you see, there's also a shift uh when it comes to to the position of the different governments uh vis-a-vis the Iran war, there's a shift in the political positions of these governments and administrations because the societies, their societies, are not following that political position. Also, I think it's very important to have in mind that nowadays international politics it's not only states, there are many, many societies that are engaged and they are against these kind of illegalities. But when, for example, Chancellor Merz was sitting alongside President Trump in the White House and Trump went off on one of his rants about Spain, and you're a terrible person, and Spain's terrible, and we're gonna punish them and not do any trade with them. Did you not feel that Chancellor Mertz should have spoken up for you as a fellow European? I mean, I can imagine that it's a very uncomfortable situation. And uh what I heard from and understand from uh Chancellor Merz is that of course uh in his uh private meeting of course he explains that uh trade uh policy is in the hands of the European Commission and it's not uh a question of bilateral and by the way, Spain suffers trade deficit when it comes to our bilateral relations with the US. So it's it's not uh the case of the sp of Spanish economy towards the US where they have uh and suffered this tra uhde deficit. But anyhow, you know, I think that is a very uncomfortable situation. And of course, for me, what is important is that Chancellor Merz of course supported Spain and uh supported the unity of the European Union when it comes to these kind of uh coercion uh words that of course President Trump uh likes to use. Um but so when I if I go back to the time when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, so there was a period when Gonzalez was here, Schroeder in Germany, Jospan in France, Prodi in Italy. There were a lot of left-of-center leaders in Europe. You're one of a very, very small number of left-of-center leaders. And I just wonder whether you're whether you think the your relationship I know Britain sadly is not in the European Union, but whether the relationship with Britain as a fellow centre left, you're probably to the left of the Labour government, but you're both centre left. Yeah no we we we have a great relationship. I think that the framework has changed obviously because of Brexit but on the other hand you know uh the relationship is very good between governments and also within our societies. No, let me let me just say about Europe that uh you know I I I do believe that Europe needs to be nowadays, especially nowadays, a force of good. And that means that we need to build up alliance not only with the US but of course, but also with the rest of the world. We we need to have um a more um engagement approach when it comes to all these global debates that the US unfortunately they just rejected global warming, uh, inequality, uh, social justice, uh, migration. Uh, of course, what shall we do with AI and uh regulation or at least creating this alliance uh across countries and across societies in order to have a more human approach to this new kind of technology. So there are plenty of global debates that we need to focus ourselves more than creating these kind of new problems that uh well uh it won't create uh any good uh for for the region and for the world. How do you create the structures to do this? Because if we take the examples that you've used, as soon as we start talking about defence cooperation, suddenly France wants to help French defence companies. As soon as we're talking about AI tech cooperation Britain is cutting side deals with Google, somebody else is doing this. We talk about international law. You take one position, Mark Carney takes one position, then changes his position so you don't say how are you going to coordinate? How are you going to get a joint voice out of with your allies? We need to be more coordinated. That that is true. I think that uh of course there are historical routes that explains foreign policy nowadays. For instance, what is happening with Germany when it comes to its relationship with the Prime Minister Netanyahu or Spain when it comes to the US? So there's of course historical roots that explain different nuances when it comes to foreign policy. But in my view, there's a lack of a European vision when it comes to these global debates. And the paradox that Europe faces is also that we we need to federalize more our policies on capital and saving union market, the energy union market, the digital union market, the defense, European industry. We need to scale up, definitely. But at the same time, we have, because of this far right wave within Europe, we have more nationalistic governments that want to keep that policies in their own hands. And that makes Europe weaker because our enemies what they want is to have a more fragmented Europe and not a more united Europe. That is why I think that within the European Union there are governments that are ready to share that sovereignty. And that is why I think that we need to move forward uh in different speeds, uh different countries that we are already ready to where where do where do you stand on the debate about enlargement and looking at bringing in other countries at different pace at different time. Well I think I think that we actually actually because of our historical roots, because we're commemorating uh this year the fortieth anniversary of uh the enlargement of the European Union to uh the Aryan Peninsula, we're happy to have more countries. But there's been none for thirteen years now. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But th there's there th's of course technical criteria, but there's also geopolitical decisions that we need to to take. And I think that Ukraine, Moldova and of course Western Balkans are the let's say the duties that European Union needs to fulfill, the enlargement I mean, in order to complete the European Union uh political project. And that also means that we need to do our own reforms, internal reforms, mainly in the decision making uh process, which is, you know, uh difficult sometimes. You think there should be less decided by unanimity? Exactly. For instance. For instance. There are two models for uh Ukraine, Moldova, Western Balkans. Uh one model is which sometimes Matakost seems to talk about, is an idea that you go bold, you say you're gonna be a European Union member and then later you will catch up. And the alternative model is that you offer them some kind of for freedom single market style membership and then a path to a deadline. We are ready for you in twenty thirty-one. Which is the model that you prefer? We have already experienced that and tested with this partnership that we build up with Ukraine and other countries such as Georgia and Moldova. I think that for our strategic uh or geoeconomics and uh geopolitics from Europe I mean, I do believe that we need to enlarge towards Ukraine and Moldova. This is uh my opinion. We believe that in Europe we're ready to do that and we'll make Europe stronger. Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia? Montenegro uh and and of course the Western Balkans. Of that uh will also mean for Southern countries to keep uh politics not only uh in the eastern flank of Europe or the Arctic, because there are other countries such as Iceland that are thinking what to do in the future if they become or not a member of the European Union. And uh the big question mark is uh what the UK will do in the in the future. Because would you what would you like to see the UK? I I would like to definitely to have the UK on board again. I think that uh societies can make mistakes, but also you can review those mistakes. And I think it was a mistake for the UK to leave the European Union. And today I think that there's a lot of data and facts that of course shows that that path was not the correct one. Just before we leave the the international on the foreign policy side of things, are you under no political pressure domestically to spend more on defense? That's something Trevor Burrus, but we have already spent 30 billion euros. But you're still very low in terms of the two point one percent of our GDP. Yeah, but you're not but you you very deliberately basically stood up against Trump when he was basically saying to all the NATO allies, you've got to spend a lot more. You were y that was when the kind of rifts I think started to think about. Five percent five percent it was an arbitrary fig ure, which was not based on data and facts. I mean, just to share with you this information, which is public, but I think that is important to table this: that we agreed with NATO to spend 2.1% of our GDP on defense, because with that amount of money, we will be able from Spain to have the capabilities needed to face the common challenges that we are facing as uh as NATO. So one thing is okay let us speak about the the global challenges that we're facing uh in NATO. What are the capabilities that all allies should table and afterwards we will decide how much money you spend on defense. Because if you take my eight years since I'm in office, we have triple the expenditure on defense, of course, when it's uh related to our GDP. And of course, we have deployed more than three thousand soldiers, mainly in the eastern flank in NATO missions. So all in all, what I'm trying to say is that uh there's there's a lot of uh arbitarianess when it comes to this five percent of our GDP. You know, one year could be one five percent, the other year could be two percent, and the other year could be seven percent, because at the end of the day the real debate is capabilities are the capabilities that allies need to share in order to face the challenges that we face as as NATO. How do you rebalance away from the US? I mean, let's say you want to stay allies with the US, but you also want to rebalance. You want a little bit more sovereignty, a little bit more independence. But of course, Spain and Europe can't do everything on their own. You don't have complete independent capacity with AI, cloud computing, defense, sec urity. So what is the strategy? How do you deal with China, with India? How do you balance your reliance on different ext So first of all, I think it is important to show that we are a reliable partner with all the these regions that you mentioned. So I think that the path opened by uh the current uh uh president of the commission, Ursula von der Leyen, when it comes to the Mercosur trade agreement, India trade agreement, and so on and so forth, is the correct one. Second, I think that Europe should deploy more its soft power, which means that we need also to be engaged in the global debates and not strengthen the European Union when it comes to migration, when it comes to global warming, when it comes to financing for development, when it comes to AI regulation or governance, these are the big debates that the global south are waiting to be responded. And I think that uh it is a mistake from Europe to send the message that we believe that the international order is dead. Do you think Europe has lost its confidence ? No. No, I think that uh we are um suffering a lot of shocks from uh Ukraine and Russia, from the US, now from the Middle East, uh of course China, uh and uh within the European Union there's a clear shift towards the far right, which means more pro-nationalistic vision of uh of the European Union, which is I do believe a weaker approach because what we need is to unite Europe, not to fragment Europe. And uh in this regard, I do believe that uh just to respond to your question, there's of course um um a need to reform our single market, which means uh not only the enlargement but also we need to uh complete the saving and capital union market, the energy union market, the digital union market. And these are the duties that we should deliver before the end of the of the mandate at the European level. And can you explain to the normal voter in Britain or in Spain what does this mean? I mean this sounds very you know, unifying energy markets, capital unifies. In practical terms, what does this mean for a citizen? It means for instance that um since seven years ago we we have decided to become the green energy hub for the European Union. What is the problem? That we are interconnected only by five percent of our total uh capacity. So we cannot provide competitive energy prices to the European Union because there's a lack of interconnections between the Aberian Peninsula and France. If we complete that uh interconnections, we will uh provide cheaper energy prices to European uh consumers. So these are the small things, but very important things for the welfare of European citizens and of course for the let's say the strength of the European Union uh project. You know, since I'm in office last month, for instance, thanks to this Greens transition, we've been able to reduce uh dramat dramatically the uh electricity prices. So last month, for instance, the electricity prices were three times cheaper than uh the ones in France, six times cheaper than uh Germany, and seven times cheaper than in Italy. So what I'm trying to say is that of course from Spain we can provide cheaper electricity prices and cheaper uh energy uh for the rest of Europe. And this is solar, predominantly solar? And you're benefiting from your weather, your sunshine, uh, exactly. But at the end of the day, you know, when when you see the it's the ideological speeches uh coming from the far right, going against uh the green transition, going against migration. I think Spain is a very good example with facts that green trans ition is for the good of uh the middle class. And also migration, even though of course there's a lot of challenges behind migration, is also good for the economic growth of the country. Because at the end of the day, in the 21st century, the competition around the world is how do we attract talent? And I think that uh it's a big mistake from Western societies just to say we're going to close our borders because we don't need more migration. Of course we need migration. The dilemma of Western societies is whether we open our economies and growth or whether we close our borders and it' sshrinking. I want to talk about um immigration and the way that you've handled the whole issue and also the politics around it. So you've you've mentioned a couple of times the idea that the there's a sort of movement to the far right across Europe. Um you know, we've got a similar situation in the UK with a Labour government that's coming with a huge landslide and is now under real pressure and a lot of the pressure coming from populist right and populist left. What have you learnt about how best to handle that? I mean, I know we shouldn't quote taxi drivers, but my taxi driver from the airport last night said he was really impressed politically by the way, you had taken an issue which the far right thinks plays massively in their favor, immigration, and you have kind of flipped that so that actually somebody like him in the center is thinking, I'm never gonna vote for these people on the far right. I'm gonna vote for this guy. Well, I think I think there are two dimensions when it comes to migration. There's a moral dim ension, uh, which I think is very important not to uh forget. These are people that are looking for new opportunities. And I think that there's a moral dimension of migration that we need to keep in mind. But there's also a pragmatic dimension of migration. We're suffering a winter demography within Western societies. And of course, that means that we we need to fight against irregular migration. We have managed through cooperation and collaboration with countries of origin and transit to reduce dramatically by 60% the irregular flows in Spain. But at the same time, it's true that when you speak with business associations, they tell you we need talent, we need migration, and that is why it's so important to have regular path of migration. So what you've done, which a lot of the centrist, left to center, and right of center governments across Europe have not done. You don't go around saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we understand all your concerns. You basically say to these people on the far right, you're xenophobic and you're damn and your attitude's damage the country. They are going against the interest of our country. But again, you're quite a lonely voice on that within the European immigration debate. But there are nuances. Even across European governments, you find prime ministers from the Central right saying we're facing a winter demography and we need to open regular paths for migration. And I think that one of the biggest mistakes that Trump and and uh current US administration is making is to close borders. They are trying to identify migration, all migration, with crime uh and all this violence and and it's the contrary, you know. In the case of Spa in, you know, migration represents uh 10% more or less of the total incomes of the social security system, but at the same time only represent one percent of the total public spending. The challenge for uh governments, and in the case of Spain, you know, since we have a very decentralized system, is in the hands of the regions and the hands of of municipalities. The challenge is how do we integrate this migration? And the the problem that we face in Spain and I think that the across Europe is that far right uh they're just not sending the message that we are going to close borders. Interestingly a loss of the migration coming to Spain is coming from Latin America. And a lot of the migration coming to the United States is also coming from Latin America. But the way Trump is describing Latin American migrants sounds like a completely different group of people from the people you I mean it's a similar population, but he says these people are crazy, rapist, violent. And when you speak with these Latinos in in the United States is the contrary, no? They feel uh proud to be in the United States, they they feel proud also about how they contribute to the economic growth and prosperity in the United States, not only from Latin America, we have also a very important diaspora of Morocco uh in in Spain that they are contributing to uh the welfare of of our society. And again the the the challenge is how do we integrate uh this migration? How do you do that? We need to uh to increase our budget when it comes to uh municipalities and regions. Um we need to also deploy social policies. So you want to spend more on welcoming immigrants. Well actually w what we are now in the process is to uh recognize uh the rights and and regulate the more or less five hundred thousand migrants that are already living in Spain. But you know, for a country of uh close to 50 million people, you know, we're talking about perhaps four points, five points of the total migrants that we have in Spain. It's not a big uh issue. I think that we have of course you know the capacity to absorb and to integrate these these migrants okay president sanchez rory quick break and back for more to some, he is the revolutionary hero who restored China to its rightful place on the global stage. To others, he's a brutal despot, accused of presiding over more civilian deaths than either Stalin or Hitler. Mao Zedong has one of the most recognizable faces in the world. Yet he started life as a rural boy in a muddy provincial village. A rebel son who hated his father survived a 6,000-mile walk across China and rose to become a figure of Titanic proportions. From Empire, the Goalhanger World History Show, I'm Anita Arnan. And I'm William Durham Pool. In this six-part series, we're joined by world-renowned expert Rana Mitter to explore the life of the father of communist China, Mao Zedong. We'll track his rise from a bookstore owner to a guerrilla commander, and we'll witness his ruthless elimination to secure total power. Where Mao himself predicted that half of China may well have to die. And we'll descend into the dark experiment of the cultural revolution, a time when ancient temples were burnt, children denounced their parents, and a nation worshipped a mango as a sacred relic. And we'll play a clip from the series at the end of this episode for you to listen to. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Goalhangers. The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. Cancer drugs aren't developed overnight. They start as ideas in the lab, then move into testing to check they're safe and work effectively. In the late 1990s, cancer research UK scientists began exploring a bold idea. Could the antibodies that normally trigger allergic reactions be used to treat cancer? The lab results were promising, but allergic reactions carry real risks. After years of work, an early stage trial showed these antibodies could be used safely. And for one person on the trial, their tumor shrank. Research is ongoing, but this careful process is how treatments move from the lab into hospitals. Cancer Research UK backs innovative ideas. And thanks to decades of support, over eight in ten people in the UK receiving cancer drugs are using one developed by or with Cancer Research UK scientists. For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research, breakthroughs, and how you can support them, visit Cancer Research UK dot org forward slash the rest is science . This episode is brought to you by Free Trade, the award winning free investment platform. And I guess it's about transparency, which is the kind of great buzzword in politics, but essentially seeing what's actually happening, taxes, pensions, markets, run all the stuff that's kind of hidden away. And investing can feel exactly the same. People put their money away each month only for fees to chip away at it. Aaron Powell And this can be an amazing thing. I mean you you invest every month and you end up paying all these commissions and fees. And actually some people find I found this myself that almost however much money your investments make in the market, all the money you make disappears in the commissions and fees. And free trade is built to challenge that assumption. You can invest in stocks and funds without paying commission with free ICEs and free pensions, all in one app and web platform. Go to free trade dot IO slash trip to start investing for free and while you're there take a look at free trade's latest cashback offers. Value of your investments can, as I've often experienced, go down as well as up, and you may get back less than you invest. Other charges may apply. Ice and SIP rules and terms and conditions of course also app ly . Of course because it's it is fascinating. You've been prime minister for eight years, you've had three budgets, you've had to rely quite a lot on the kind of European funds to keep some projects going. You've you've managed to do a lot of that. But looking from the outside, it's a very, very weird kind of coalition situation. Well, is the the coalition that that Spaniards uh want it? Uh in the how do you hold it together? Well, I think that with a lot of capacity of negotiation and I think that uh the Spanish way of doing things works. Define the Spanish way of doing things. Well in twenty twenty-five we we created more more jobs than for instance uh the US uh economy. The economic growth in Spain represents 40% of the total uh economic growth of the Eurozone. I do believe that politics means just do it. You know, you have to deliver on social policies, on uh economic transformation and so on and so forth. And we have done so on the digital side, on the uh green transition. But when you're sitting with your coalition colleagues, you've got quite a wide spectrum. You've got a right wing Catalonian over here, you've got a kind of hard left guy over here, you've got somebody very much in your image there. Well at the end of the day, there's a a common understanding, and I can tell you that being a minority coalition government has also made me bet ter as Prime Minister. Because that not only because of my conviction but also obligation to talk a lot with uh the rest of uh majoritary groups. Well perhaps for a year. But I can tell you that you know we we've been able to uh pass uh very important uh laws such as you know uh, lab,or market reform, pension uh system reform with social peace. And by the way, it is true indeed that back in 2017, you know, the year before I took over, Spain suffered the worst territorial and constitutional crisis in Catalonia. And nowadays in Catalonia, you know, we have a socialist president. So people in Catalonia recognize the effort that we have done over the last seven years in order to normalize the situation in Catalonia. And this is also a very important goal for this term, to 100% normalize the political and social situation in in in Catalonia. What does that mean, hundred percent normalizer? So to materialize the amnesty law, to uh overcome all this terrible mess that previous administration left me uh when I took over back in 2018. And I think that we are in the process. But of course it has uh obliged me to to take very difficult decisions that in in the beginning Spaniards were you know more reluctant, but nowadays they realize it was worth for the coexistence of the Spanish territories and of course to strengthen uh democracy in Spain. Do you think do you think Catalonia will be independent in your lifetime No, I think that Catalonia they just want to to be respected its identity to be recognized as well as as the best country. And uh I think that the diversity, territorial diversity within Spain, is not a problem, it's an asset for the good of Spain and for the good of our prosperity. This is why I think that now uh if you take uh you know the the the polls in Catalonia and in the Basque Country and other other territories that they have this very strong identity, they recognize how uh well uh and how good this uh government uh works for their their interest. And I think this is very important without breaking of course uh equal opportunities within territories and within uh citizens. There's a sense in which uh we all feel like we're becoming Spain in twenty seventeen. That you're somehow ahead of us. I mean so if you look at Britain, like Spain, we had basically a two party system. Yeah. And then suddenly we end up with our our own far left, our Podemos, is basically the Green Party, which is now just won a by election very Then we have Farage on the right, which feels a bit like Vo x. And we have a center left prime minister who is stuck in a similar situation to you, but is taking a completely different approach, right? He is uh had been told by his previous chief of staff he needed to sound very tough on immigration, he needed to get the voters back from the far right. Um what are you what's the lesson? I mean, if we're all becoming Spain in twenty seventeen, what's what's the lesson for Kirstama and the Labour government on how you navigate this new world of five parties and far left and far right and immigration. And with the independence debates going on in the middle from Spain, what we uh think is that we are urbanizing uh Spanish politics because uh this is the first time ever uh since we have democracy, uh 45 years ago that Of course we have at regional level and municipalities, but not at central level. So we are, you know, in the process of urbanizing Spanish politics. And when it comes to the UK, I think that the the the the framework perhaps is is the problem. The framework is how do you navigate in this world without being part of a bigger a bigger political project. It doesn't matter if you are centre left or centre right uh prime minister, at the end of the day the framework where you operate and you do politics is very uh tiny, no, very very difficult to operate because there's of course a high um uh public deficit, uh high public debt, uh low uh economic growth, of course uh more uh defense obligations and security obligations, the debate of migr ation. I think that the UK needs to, with all due respect, the UK needs also to reflect on the decision taken We're now in a position, as it happens, I don't think Nigel Farage will become Prime Minister, but it's not impossible. So there's one of the two big drivers of the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union. And even as though you said you said earlier, a lot of Brits think it's been a complete catastrophe, how is it that one of the chief architects of it is now being talked of as a future prime minister. So I think what Rory's saying is you you seem to be suggesting that Britain needs to be far more confident about embracing its obvious economic and political future.. Indeed Yeah. I think that is a big question mark that British should answer. We need to to keep that alliance. Brexit was a terrible loss not only for for British but also for the European Un ion. We have also lost uh one of our major uh, let's say, political uh actors when it comes to international politics and welfare of the European Union as a whole. And middle answer answers are not uh the correct one. open that debate but uh but once again of course it will polarise uh the you know citizens in in in Britain and uh this is a a very difficult debate to to face. But again i it's a question of of of framework, you know how Britain could win more sovereignty? And in my opinion, you don't win more sovereignty when you are out of a bigger political project, in our case, of course, the European Union. I mean, imagine Spain out of the European Union. It would be a disaster. You were the first Spanish Prime Minister I've met who hasn't raised Gibraltar in the first time. Well let's not. Let's not. No, no, but but but by the way, you know, I think there were like three Labour governments in Gibraltar, in Spain and in Britain. Thanks to I think generosity, responsibility, and of course thinking about people in Gibraltar and in Campo de Gibraltar, we managed to reach a very important agreement. So I think that this was um a a very important milestone in order to scale up and strengthening our bilateral cooperation with uh the UK. But going back to your question, the problem is not about political orientation. It's about the framework where uh politics in Britain operates after Brexit. And then I think it takes to tango. I mean the European Union is going to have to be quite genero us also in accommodating Britain if we try to get it back. So what we're afraid of is that eventually we win the referendum, we want to come back into the European Union, and then France says no, no, no, no, no. If you come back this time, you must get much rest time. We have to punish you for your leaving and I think I think Europe Europe has changed a lot. Uh uh over the last uh years. I mean we have you know we we suffered a pandemic afterwards, uh a war in Ukraine, the energy crisis, Gaza war, uh nowadays Iran war. And what what we see is a a clear alignment in global politics uh from the European Union and the UK government. So you know, I don't think I don't see today any other path than more cooperation and why not in the future. But this is my hope, uh with all due respect, to have again the UK uh in the European Union. The sad thing is when we have an example of trying to make a cooperation, for example, on the defence funds. We we didn't even succeed in something small like that. They got into a fight about, you know, Britain is not paying enough, Britain's saying we're paying too much, and in the end, the obvious thing, which was to tie Britain into the defense procurement, was not successful. At the end of the day, I'm sure that we will reach an agreement. But that's democracy. I mean to have different opinions and then afterwards you negotiate and you reach an agreement. But uh perhaps we we could do it faster, right? And with more generosity, more imagination from both sides, yeah. But I think that uh the destiny of of the UK and European Union is is is the same the same one. And I think that we need to do a political effort to join forces and see in the future how do we frame this relationship. Again, as a member of the European Union or not, in my view is clear that in the interests of Colleagues who are in jail, family members. First of all, is Spain does Spain have a corruption problem? No. No, no, no, no. We we we had it uh with the previous administration, unfortunately. But you know, uh the corruption uh politics free i it doesn't exist. I mean it's important to keep in mind is what what exists is to have zero tolerance against corruption. And uh personally took those decisions in order to expel that uh those cases of corruption when when when it comes to some of my you know members of of of the cabinet no uh one precisely and uh and when it comes to my yeah, and when it comes to my family, you know, uh of course I will defend the innocence of my brother and my wife. But you know, politics nowadays is is uh they uh you have this this polarization, they have also the use of different associations that uh demand uh before courts your family because they're just your family, and I hope that uh justice make justice and uh and uh the truth will prevail. But this is also the the cost that you have to pay sometimes now politics. So you you said uh in relation to some of your very close allies who helped you to uh take over the party, these guys that were travelling around with you in the car, that you regretted what had happened, that you had moments where you felt maybe that you should resign. I mean what what were the what went wrong? What were the lessons there? What lessons have you learned from that? Well there's a there's a side dimension of this uh political relationship. Um you you think that perhaps they are your friends, but at the end of the day you don't know them. You you think that you you know them, but but you don't don't know them. They have a kind of high life. Uh but what is I I think important is to take decisions, not to just uh say, well, uh it's not a case of corruption since the first moment the very first moment that police and of course the judges opened uh this this uh corruption scandal i i took decisions proportionally to the case. And uh I think that is my responsibility. And also on the other hand to uh cooperate with you know international organizations such as the OECD in order to launch a state or a national plan against corruption. All in all, what I'm trying to say is that corruption is part unfortunately of politics. What is uh what makes the difference is how do you respond to those those scandals? And uh in my case I took that responsibility and I was hundred percent tough and proportional uh to to to those uh kind of scandals. My final question. I want to ask you about gaz a. Now I know historically Spain and Ireland have always been very, very defined as pro-Palestinian. But again, I wonder how you developed the position that you took. I think I'm right in saying you're still the only European leader who's actually called what's happening in Gaza genocide. There's a lot of um experts on international law, on humanitarian law that uh already uh stated as a genocide what is uh happening uh in in Gaza no? And is is it w what what is it about the I know Ireland very, very well and I kind of I understand the emotional connection. What's what's the what is it about Spain that makes it such a pro Palestini an it's probably the most pro Palestinian European country I would guess. Of of course we we are empathetic with the the Palestinian cause, but I would say that uh there's a a broader picture uh to think about it, which is that Spain has suffered for many years terror ism. First of all, in the Basque Country, in the beginning of our democracy, and uh and uh afterwards uh we suffer a very important uh terrorist uh attack uh from uh the jihadist uh during the Iraqi war. But the Israelis would say that they're victims of terrorism. Absolutely, they are, but they are not taking the correct response to fight against terror ism. And this is, I think, the real debate. Because of course there is a security dimension when it comes to fight against terrorism. But there's also a an ideological dimension on how to fight against uh terrorism within society, in this case the Palestinian uh society. And uh I think that uh today if you ask yourself is Hamas stronger or weaker after four years of war or three years of war, I could tell you perhaps Hamas is stronger. Why is that? Because there's a clear lack of political vision on how to fight against terrorism, how to give and provide Palestine's a political horizon for their own future. And that means, of course, responding to the urgencies, such as humanitarian aid, stopping the war in the Gaza Strip, but also to give and provide a political horizon which means a state of Palestine. Do you think Netanyahu is a war criminal? That is not my you know my duty to respond it, but I think that Israel today is more isolated internationally than before the war. And why is that? Because Prime Minister Netanyahu took a very wrong decision when it comes to respond to this Hamas terrorist attack, which by the way, we of course condemn it uh since uh day one. Aaron Ross Powell My final question. How do we you've talked a lot about Spain, you've talked a lot about the European Union and the U K. But I'd like you to my final question to think a little bit about the bigger global architecture and the global south. Be cause there's a risk that Germany, Britain talk about the rules-based international order, but the reality is we have all cut our development spending a lot. There's less support going into the global south. There's not much support for the United Nations. Sometimes it feels as though we only care about state sovereignty when it's Europe. And we didn't really care. I agree. I think the problem or the challenge is how do we upgrade the international order to the 21st century? And that means that Western societies, Western governments, we must reduce our representativeness in some of these multilateral institutions in order to have a more representative international order, which means we will need more African Union. We will need more ASEAN, more global south in multilateral institutions. Are we re ady to reduce that representativeness? Are we ready to share uh global governance with other regions, with China, with India, with Brazil, and keeping at the same time uh what is working at international level? That is the challenge. So Britain and France have to give up the permanent membership of the Security Council? Well, I perhaps is something that we need to to think about it. How Europe is represented at the Security Council? How uh Asia Afrika North America South America is represented in the different institutions. And I think that this is uh a very difficult question to be answered, but uh I think that for the good of of the world we need to face it as Western governments and Western societies. That is why I do believe that it's a big mistake for Europe to s to state that the international order is over. Because I think that the duty of Europe today, more than ever, is to be a force of good. And that means to be a force of cooperation, collaboration, to strengthen multilateral uh system. And of course strengthen the international order. But also strengthen the economy. You were asking me about defense sp ending. But the first question that Europe should answer is how do we increase our competitiveness? How do we increase our productivity? How do we gro w? And afterwards we can talk about if we spend more on defence, social security, social services, housing policy, and so on and so forth. And there again, we we have uh a very different view when it comes to you know far right governments and uh I would say centrist government, which means perhaps to enable our country's uh competitiveness means to uh speed the green transition. Renewables are quite uh competitive when it comes to fossil fuels or even nuclear energy. And of course, what do we do within the European Union to scale up our digital market? And that means that we need to change and reform and upgrade our competition framework to forget about you know, this is a Spaniard company, the other one is a German company or Spanish company, German company or French company, French company, and perhaps we should talk about European companies. So there are many, many, many challenges for for Europe and uh and of course for the Western governments. But at the same time, uh the the good news is that we know what we should do. The challenges to we do we have uh that uh political willness uh to to deliver, no? Thank you so much. I mean it's been a wonderful interview. We're very grateful for your time and thank you very very much indeed. Thank you. It is a pleasure. Thank you . Okay, Roy, so there's President Sanchez. Quite an impressive guy. I thought he was really brilliant. I think he's a very, very skilful politician. We we didn't maybe talk enough about just some of the amazing maneuvers he's made, but he's also a great communicator of values in such important areas. I mean just on the maneuvers. He's one of these people who is able to take a position and then reverse the decis ion, but somehow still not be overly punished by it. So, you know, in his case, you know, he said he was not going to give amnesty to the Catalan leaders, and he did. He wasn't gonna uh the implication was he wasn't gonna go into business, I think, with the far left, and he did. Um he also did this very radical thing right at the beginning of his uh leadership where he effectively took on the entire party leadership, was thrown out of the party, started a grassroots movement, seized back control. So under the surface of this very articulate, calm communicator is somebody who's able to make these amazing kind of political moves. Yeah, no, he's a ph he is definitely a phenomenal politician. I was speaking to quite a few of the the kind of diplomatic circle in Madrid ahead of the thing and they're all saying that, you know, he is by a long stretch the most impressive spy Now, the other thing that somebody said that to me that was really interesting, we didn't get too much into the domestic Spanish politics, not least because his in his his position on the international stage is so interesting at the moment because he's absolutely calling out Trump in so many ways. One of them said to me something very interesting, he said, This is not a politician who's who's running a 51-49 strategy. He's running a 33-33-33 strategy make sure you get the thirty-fourth which is really interesting and of course the other thing that's happening in Spanish politics is that there's a lot of focus on the far right, Vox, and he kind of plays into that. I mentioned a lot of the questions that we got. Some of them were in the field of why do you keep sort of why does he keep labelling the the cent the the Conservative party as these kind of, you know, terribly dangerous etc. It's because he's trying to ally them to the far right. So they get a lot of you get a lot of debate about the far right. But the other fascinating thing going on is there are all these parties to the left of him, including some that sit in his cabinet, plus uh a now uh very charismatic leader, this guy called Ruffian, which I think is a wonderful name for a politician in in Catalonia, who's who's trying to put together an alliance to the left of Sanchez. Now I actually think in the end thirty four thirty three thirty three strategy, that might help him kind of consolidate a position in the centre, push the right off to the extremes, have the left off to him. Is that the strategy for Stammer? I mean is is that Stama putting the Greens off to his left and making the Conservatives associated with reform and coming through the middle? I think I think to some extent it is. And it was it was very interesting, you know, when we were and we'll come on to his very clear advice for Kirstaba, particularly on on Brexit, but also this thing he kept saying I mean it was it was my words but he kind of lent into it this idea about communicating in bold primary colours. I mean everything when you said after the interview finished and you said you know he just he's so clear it's because he is speaking in bold primary colours all the time. Even though as you say, sometimes the colours change. When we pressed him on how do you deal with this kind of Frankenstein coalition with all these different places over there, and he had flipped it from I'm a pragmatic politician putting all this together to it makes me a better leader that I can deal with all these different shades of opinions. So his new primary colour having fought so hard to get the coalition is coalition makes for good politics and that's why people like me as a leader. I mean he's very smart. The best primary colour bit I thought was that he was able to take a radical position, very unashamed position on immigration, connect it to growth, which people really care about. And to values. Exactly. So that that thing that you very, very rarely hear a British politician say when he said, Look, when you're talking about you know particularly North African immigrants coming in, yes, they're great for our economy. They're contributing, many times more than they're receiving in welfare. But it's also a moral obligation. There's something about humans here. And I I thought that also connected to his international position, his comfort talking about ethics, international law, and framing things. And I think that's so important. I mean, I I I keep coming back to my obsession with Aristotle saying that the three things that I I thought he was very good at that. I mean I did I did a bit of sort of ringing around and um beforehand and of course my f my all-time favourite Spaniard do you know who my all time favourite Spaniard is? Uh Miriam Gonzalez. Correct. Uh Mrs. Nick Clegg is my all time favourite Spanish. And she will not be enjoying this conversation because she's not a fan. No, no, well and and in fact I think maybe because of that, you you said to me, Rory, I don't think you're gonna like him as much as you think that you'll like him. No, the reason I thought of that is because actually when push comes to shove Rory you are basically a conservative. He is he is he is to the he is t I'd say to the left of me on all sorts of different issues. What I think Miriam doesn't like is his ability to project himself internationally as this very progressive voice and and what have you. She said for example, we didn't really get into this because I think it's too much down in the weeds of Spanish politics. But this point about only having three budgets in eight years is partly been allowed because he's very good at signing executive orders, a bit like Trump. Right. She would argue that he's actually been, you know, in relation to the judiciary, free media, that he's a lot more a kind of old-fashioned sort of you know, controlling politician than he gets credit for. And also I think her other big point is that it's all very well to talk the talk about European dynamism and European uh modernising and making the economy more efficient, but in the Spanish context is he really doing that other than through this message about immigration? But listen, I found him really compelling. I think and I think I gr what I go for is what I gr agree with you. It's just that neither he nor his team made any effort really to find out what sort of they knew what they know what our interviews are like, but they they weren't sort of trying to find out what we were most interested in what we were going to push on. We set out in the introduction all of the areas that you and I had kind of thought about getting into. And in all of them I just found him very very clear. He he's got that old fashioned thing of listen to a question, answer the question, make a point that might lead you to another question, and on the conversation And of course Belfast is part of the United Kingdom, but they don't they have very different politics, different parties, different debates, but they follow our politics very, very closely. What was really interesting when I did one of my show of hands thing about who's going to win the next election. There was some support for saying it would be Keir Starmer. There was a lot of support for saying it will be a Labour leader that is not Keirstarmer. There was zero, I think zero for the idea that the Tories are going to win the next election, and there was pretty muted pretty mutedly the idea that there was going to be Farage. Now, I actually think that it is not impossible that Kirstarmer can win the next election in, part because of what you just identified, this thirty-four, thirty-three, thirty-three. The only thing I'd say is I think our politics is even more volatile than Spanish politics right now. And Keir Starmer, unfortunately, from his and Labour's perspective, doesn't have this sense that Sanchez is giving his own people of kind of energy and dynamism direction. And honestly, Rory, I had I only had you know I don't like quoting taxi drivers. I had two taxis, two taxis. What you doing in Spain told them the first one said he is the best president we have ever had and it's about time we realised it. And the second guy the second guy just said, you know I think it's interesting also how y there would have been a very cynical view which he would have got from some of his polling people, who might have said to him a few years ago, for God's sake, the only thing people care about is talking about cost of living. Don't go out there and champion immigration. There's a lot of people who do not want a lot of immigrants coming to Spain. Shut up about that. And listen, people aren't that interested in international affairs, and taking some big idealistic position or not using Spanish bases is just going to piss off the Americans, lead to tariff wars, wreck your relationships with NATO, just shut up about it. But actually I think it's an example of where taking a very clear, unambiguous primary colour position helps. I mean I I don't want to get dragged backing again into the Keir Starmer thing, but one of the issues around his position, even if you know you're on your side and think it was the right thing to do, is it's not a very primary colours position. You know, it's a position where we are seeing American jets taking off from British airstrips all the time while he's also taking on Trump. Final thing I thought as I was sort of putting our interview together with the interviews we did with Kiriakos Mitsutakis in the Prime Minister of Greece, and with Eddie Rama in Albania and Albin Kurti, Stub, uh Jonas Gastura in Norway. These guys are oddly much more confident talking in a really interesting, articulate way about international affairs than almost any of the leading British politicians. And I don't know why that is. There's something very odd. These people feel incredibly confident internationally. Now, it may be that for some reason they're ending up with these people with much more international careers. So he obviously served in the European Commission. Stubb was a diplomat. Exactly. And and and it's true, Yanis Garstora was the executive director of the World Health Organization. But there is something quite interesting about these senior European figures where they feel much more sort of global, internationally sophisticated, confident making claims about the shape of the world. I mean Mark Carney would be another classic example of this. But the Brits are not I'm not hearing that from Ivet Cooper, I'm not hearing that from Keir Starmer. Am I right that this British politics feels a bit different? Whereas m I suspect uh Tony Blair would have been very comfortable talking like that being one of those kind of people. Look, I think Brexit is a big part of this. We'll come on to that. I think that Keir Starmer definitely feels instinctively that he a big part of his job is foreign affairs and foreign policy, particularly now with Ukraine and and Iran and all this and that's a big part of his job. But you can see in his communication, he always feels he has to be somehow relating it to cost of living, your lives at home and what have you. What I'm seeing with the European leaders is less of that need. And I think the other thing to understand is that, and this came through very much in particular maybe with the interview with Alexander Stubb, President of Finland, because he does foreign policy, but he doesn't do Europe. Now, there's still a mindset in Britain that thinks well Europe is foreign policy. But if you're one of these guys, no it's not. It is a part of your everyday kind of political political life. I also think the other thing where I you talked about their confidence in how they express themselves on these issues, the other thing that I think it links all of those people that you mentioned, is how steadily they are becoming much, much more open and Frank about what they now consider to be a fact, not an opinion, a fact. Brexit has been really bad for Europe and dreadful for the United Kingdom. And if the British government had any sense, they'd just kind of dive into the war He said it very much in those terms. Stub, uh that is his view that you know he said the thing about seven years to leave, seven years to find out you've made a mistake, hopefully not seven years to get back in. And and I think you asked him whether, you know, but isn't there still the kind of French thing of wanting to rub these guys' noses in the dirt for a bit longer? Again, they all seem to be thinking no, because this is the world is now too serious. And genuinely we do miss the Brits. We do lose something by not having the Brits there. But listen, I'm I completely agree with you. I said last week that on the just in just out of the Iran thing, I'd love to have heard a big speech about Churchill's view of the world. I'd love to have heard a big speech about how this is the moment for renewables to kind of have the next agenda. And likewise on this international stuff, I think we've got to stop pretending it's just a kind of little extension of domestic stuff. It's fundamental. The leadership required is fundamental. The issues that it arise that arise from it, peace, prosperity, energy, this international situation. I I I'm with you. I w heannaar I want to hear more from our politicians and not sort of embarrassed about it. It's so interesting 'cause um when I entered Parliament twenty ten I would have said that the general feeling when I went to EU council meetings, this kind of stuff is that it was the British politicians who were much more confident making big global statements, talking about the Middle East, talking about international law. And a lot of the European politicians back fifteen, twenty years ago, felt much more domestic. They some of them, uh you know, Austrian politicians I can remember, felt almost like local counselors who'd somehow wandered into national politics? Now it's feeling very different. It now feels as though these European leaders, sometimes from quite small countries, have a kind of sophistication, intelligence, intellectual ambition, yeah We've got the Hungarian election coming up on april twelfth. That is going to be one of the most watched elections in the world in a relatively small European country. That's because Orban is such a kind of part of the MAGA thing. But no, I'm I'm completely with you. And I think the other thing w where I'm I said to him at one point, do you think Europe's lost his confidence? And he said no. But Europe does have to step up on an economic dynamism, does have to step up and this is where Miriam would say he's just not doing it on policy terms. But I still have this view. You know, when we interviewed Alice Understube and he's written this book, The Triangle of Power, Global, Global West, Global East, Global South, and you said to him, look, maybe it should be a quadrangle of power. And I am absolutely convinced that the bottom of the quadrangle has to be Europe. And interesting again, even though would it when push comes to shove and they have to all sign or pass a treaty or get a law through their own parliament about allowing in Ukraine, Montenegro, Albania, etc. Will they all actually want to do that? I don't know, but he was very, very clear. More Europe, more countries in the European Union, including hopefully Ukraine and the UK, that's a proper vision. That's a proper that's a proper sense of something really big that we want to fight for. And I think that what's happened post Brexit, particularly given that so many of our politicians, Johnson, Farage, the Tories, Reform, still try to pretend that Brexit's been a really good thing for the country, we're having a kind of la la land debate. It's not a real debate about what's actually happening. And Rory what about Lamont Claude? I mean if that's your working environment. I mean I have seen rats, okay? I have seen I have seen rats in Downey Street in the Elysee Palace, okay. I didn't see any rats scuttling around in World Club. I s that was like being in an art gallery. Beautiful. All right. Well Alistair thank you. See you very soon. See you soon. Take care. B ye. Hello, it's William Drumple again from Empire. Here is a clip from our recent six-part series on Mao Zedong. The Great Leaf Forward was supposed to be, on its face, a kind of highly rationalised bureaucratic system of working out what China could produce and then you know working upwards so that you would produce you know enough food for everyone to uh to eat and uh crops that could then be exported to increase China's GDP and everything would be great.