The Human Cost of War

Thanks for listening to The Rest Is Politics. Sign up to The Rest is Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members' chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to the rest ispolitics.com. That's the rest is politics.com . This episode is brought to you by IG. If you're listening to this podcast, the chances are you're someone who thinks seriously about politics, economics, and your own financial future. You probably also understand that volatility can also mean opportunity. So rather than waiting for things to settle down, you're wondering how to invest. And that's where IG comes in. They've been trusted by British investors for over fifty years through every kind of market condition you can think of, IG offers zero commission on your investments, zero account fees, and they were just voted best low-cost ICER at the 2026 Boring Money Awards. If you've been thinking about investing or you want a new investment platform that gives you better value, search IG.com today and find out about their latest welcome offers for new customers. IG, trade, invest, progress. Your capital is at risk. Other fees may apply. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Acrob at Studio. In politics, data plays a massive and increasingly important role in influencing policy. And of course it's not just politics, the lots of roles that rely on information on data, which is why Acrobat Studio is a must. You're a civil servant trying to get stuff together on special educational needs or whether you're trying to make a new decision on a business. You're endlessly trying to generate reports, presentations, summaries, insights, and what this does, the Adobe Acrobat Studio, is it's a PDF space and it's AI powered, and it turns those documents into summaries and insights, doing the stuff which is actually the kind of backbone of what a consultant does or a civil servant does with a lot of their time. It helps you manage documents and transform insights into standout content so you can go from idea to creation in record time or within an AI-powered workflow. So whatever you want to do , you can do that with Acrobat. Learn more and try it out on Adobe dot com. Hello and welcome to the Rest is politics leading with me Alistair Campbell. Sadly , not with Roy today. He's on holiday with his family, without access to the internet, and with the guests that we have today, there just wasn't really any point of holding on and trying to reschedule. And Rory is very is perfectly happy with that. Because today I am really privileged to be speaking to a man who has become one of the defining figures of our time. His face and voice are known the world over. It's Vladimir Zelensky, the President of Ukraine. And this is an interview that I enjoyed so much, and I'm confident that you will too. This is a war leader who is steering his country through an existential crisis, and who I believe and have long believed is an exceptional political figure and an exceptional human being. His is not a conventional political story. He trained in law, but then built his life in comedy and entertainment. He was writing, producing, performing, ultimately building up one of the biggest production companies in Ukraine alongside his wife, Alina. And then in 2019, after lots of rumors that he might, the man who played a comedy president as an actor became the actual president, a political novice who won the general election in Ukraine , taking 73% of the vote against Petro Poroshen ko. But that is not why he matters today, as I'm sure you all know. He matters because when Vladimir Putin launched a full-alesc invasion of Ukraine , expecting a swift collapse, Kyiv to be taken, and a compliant replacement to Zelensky put in place. Zelensky didn't run, he stayed, he led, and he has fought ever since. And in doing so , he has in many ways redefined what leadership looks like in moments of real genuine crisis. Of course, in the interview we talk a lot about Vladimir Putin, his mindset, his strategy, crucially what Zelensky sees as his weaknesses in a war he is convinced Russia cannot win. Zelen sky is very blunt. He thinks that heavy losses, poorly trained troops, and a dangerous pivot towards diplomacy , this is not as a path to peace, but as a tactic for Putin to regroup. At a time on the front line, Ukraine is doing by all accounts pretty well. And a ceasefire, he warns, much as the world may want it, may not be an end, but a pause before the next assault, particularly in the Donbass region that Putin's determined to take, and that Trump and Whitkoff and Kushner seem to think he should have. And Zelensky is blunt about this too, that if he succeeds there, he will not stop . He doesn't hold back on his feelings about some of the international response. Has to be diplomatic most of the time, but there is real frustration here, especially with parts of the United States political establishment. Pretty dramatically, I think he sets out a vision for European security that is bold. A new kind of alliance with the European Union bringing in together the UK, Ukraine, Turkey, and Norway. That he says is a force that would easily beat the Russian army. He talks about the necessity of humor as a critical survival mechanism. And please do listen to the very end, where he gives a sad, very moving account of his unbearable duty in meeting families of the fallen, handing out medals to parents, to children, and insisting that he must never ever become detached from the consequences of the decisions that he makes. So as well as being politically important, I think this interview is genuinely very, very moving. So with that in mind, please enjoy our interview with President Vladimir Zelen sky. Okay, so President Zelensky, thank you so much for talking to me. And we'll we'll get into what's happening today. But first I want to go back in time to your great-grandparents who were among more than a million Ukrainian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation , to your grandfather, who joined the Soviet army in 1942, his three brothers who all perished. And I wonder what impact these stories had on you growing up as you learnt your family's history? I think all the roots and all the stories of uh families have some uh p important uh influence on your life and uh it's understandable and uh and of course I think that the people who experience the war, they are focusing on on on only on very important things. So of course the time what I had with my grandfather, of course, had influence. Yes, because you speak about ordinary things, but uh basing on the on your experience of your life. And um yes, it has some influence. But I think that uh family education and uh and also uh friends , school, a lot of things which are very important. Uh education is you know one of the very important things which has influenced on on you, on your view and on your values, and how you see and how you feel the world and your attitude to to everything. Tell me about your your own parents. Um the happily they're still alive, but it it can't be easy for them at the moment seeing the life that you have to lead and the relentless pressure that you're under. No, I I think my my mother of course uh it's difficult for her to to understand, to to hear, to feel, and and it's understand able very much. She's very sensitive. She knows me very well. That's why she when she me sees, for example, on TV or somewhere, and she understands when I'm tired or not , if I'm okay or s I have some questions and or problems, and of course all these challenges. Yes, for who maybe it's more difficult even for me . Yes. And for my father, no, he's very supportive, he understands very well. If uh with my mother we have communication almost each day she calls me yeah I'm so sorry I have to call but sometimes I'm too busy. I f I'm busy I forget. Yeah so but uh she she never forgot she has to call me . I don't know. If I'm not answering, by the way, I have a problem. It means that I will have 10, 20 phone calls from her. So that's why it's better to answer the first. And di and when you when you were growing up, would they ever have thought that you would end up becoming a politician? No, no, no. Why not? Because uh my family is, you know, the the like the family of of scientists, because my father is a scientist. And scientists are almost they are anti political, anti re establishment, anti-parties. They never recognize politicians and etc. So that's why I said immediately of course not. So the politics is not very important topic in my family. So it was more about yes, of course it was we we discussed with my father and mother, we discussed what's going on in the world, but not from the point of politics, from the point of you know, challenges and and from the point of security and uh the economy and etc . So but but no no politics. Okay. And you you did a law degree, but because comedy was really your thing, you then get into this KVN comedy competition. Were you always very, very funny? As a child were you funny? Yes, and but we we have good sense of humor in my family. I always had. My father he loved to joke uh yes and a lot of such things so we we love to to read such books and uh funny stories and comedies just to have fun to with family and etc. So we are we are not uh the new uh new ruse, new we're not crumpy. You're a crumpy old man. So it's normal for us. Then we I I had uh I studied uh in judicial university, I studied law because I mean this uh profession was very popular at this very moment when I when I studied and when I graduated school. And so that's why. That's why. Because my father, he's a scientist, he's about cybernetic math. It's all about it. So I started first uh math with him. Yeah but I what I understood that he's uh he's clever than me in this in math and I said to him, look, I don't want to be the second . That's why I don't want that you always look at me that in math you you know more than me and you will know and understand more when even in and10 20 years I don't I don't want this feeling because because I knew by the way I knew math very well but not such well as my father because he is a professor and this is his life. And then that's why I said no. You do so you do your own thing. Something different, yes. And uh I wanted to go to study in some uh some diplomacy in the university in the capital, but it was I mean unpossible because it was very uh uh we we didn't have uh enough uh for this budget because you need some money for this to live somewhere and etc. So I am from another city, not in from the capital. That's why it was difficult and uh but um the most understandable was to study in the university uh to study the law and to go to this uh the profession and very everybody in the world pretty much now knows that you played a teacher who became president, but you were very much more than a comedian. You were a kind of entertainment entrepreneur. You at one point you were a TV executive , you were inventing different formats and so forth. Did you imagine that was going to be your life forever? Or did you was there always a part of you thinking maybe politics? First of all, I loved my profession . Well, I have before the politics, I was the owner or one of the owners of uh a big production company, maybe one of the biggest. And of course I I loved this profession. It was about uh creative things. I was the CEO of this company, not only one of the owners, I was the CEO of the company. And then I loved the TV and movie from the point of producing, from the point of marketing and the ideas. So I I loved to create the idea. It was like a business idea and to do it from the very beginning to the end. It's like the uh you know that there are positive producers and negative. I think positive producers who create the idea and then make the product. Negative producers they only can uh find some money at the end of the process during the editing they will say it's not good, it's something bad and etc. So I don't very respect such people because I think that the the best producer find a way how to choose the great idea or to create it by uh himself or by herself. And and you also you met your wife, Alina, in that period. She was a comedy writer. And I'm just wondering before we get on to the really serious stuff, everything in your life right now must feel incredibly serious and stressful. Do you are you still able to have a good time with her and to have a laugh and actually just to joke about things or do you just feel weighed down by the pressure of what you're doing? By the way, my wife before she became my wife, she was a scriptwriter. And I also w love this uh profession and I also was a scriptwriter some years. But now I don't have time of course. Now I'm the president of the country which is in war. I'm focusing on one thing on Ukraine and uh this is my priority. If you are focusing on trying to manage different things, you will not be successful in in one . So that's why I can understand what is the most important for today for me and for Ukraine. I work for Ukraine on Ukraine, but you sometimes not to forget that you can't be very serious with everything, otherwise you will you will become crazy because yeah it's just just about crazy people who who don't have sense of humor mm it's crazy people. It's by the way it's not only my opinion. I know a lot of uh soldiers, officers and and uh doctors who are managing uh and uh save lives and but you can't be very serious each moment yes you have to be professional and be very serious with your profession. But there are some things on which you can't look uh very seriously otherwise you will shift your focus from really serious things now tw2018, you announce that you're running for office. 2019, you win a runoff against Poroshenko with 73% . And at that point, Vladimir Putin has already annexed Crimea. He's begun his campaign . Did you feel at the time that he might one day go for a full invasion? And did you discuss with your friends and your family what that might mean for you? The prospect of being the war leader that you've now become or did you think it would never happen? And of course I uh of course I couldn't estimate about full scale war. It's unbelievably how it can be. So but really uh it was very bad surprise when they occupied Crimea. You have borders with Russia, you have long history, a part of USSR history and and etc . And of course you can't even imagine that will be someday it will be the aggression and it will be a full-scale war and uh not only temporary occupation, the b the really goal uh of Russians to occupy all your country and to destroy Ukraine. I didn't know about it, of course. And f aga also famously when when the invasion happened, you said to President Biden and President Erdogan, I don't need a ride, I need ammunition. That's the moment where I think people sense you were a leader of just exceptional leadership and courage. But was there a moment when you felt real personal fear at the scale of what you were about to be confronted with? Um not I I mean this I'm a live person, we have all all these uh emotions what uh all the people have, of course. When you hear about about children, about your country, about your family, it's very understandable. But uh for me the most important is to push away any kind of emotions and to focus on on the steps. That what I can do and I could do it before this profession. Yes, in the difficult moments I can put myself together. So the I I had to do it and that's why I saw a lot of people around who've been in a big stress and some chaos and etcetera but but I think that I could manage what to do. And of course I had phone calls, you know, each five, ten minutes . During the first days of the war, yes, it was I mean very difficult and I had one goals from all the from the generals of my country, just the government which being in the western part. I pushed moved it to the western part of Ukraine because I saw that if we will be occupied totally, uh we we need to manage how how to manage the country. Yeah, and that's why I decided I made some steps with banking system. I can't share with you where I moved them, but I moved them. Yes, and also I moved the government. I had to not big team in Kiev. We had to stay here. So, and of course, leaders uh came to me that they said that in such and not only them also security and etcetera. They all my I mean this own security, they all said that in such circumstances we need to move you to some security pla somewhere . And uh leaders of the world, including United States, they wanted to move me somewhere to other country and to help me with this and and and uh just to save me because they knew that Putin wants that at this moment it was understandable that Russians wanted to occupy Kyiv and of course, they wanted to to uh do something with me. Now it's understandable. Now it's not so difficult to look back and to understand what is the idea, how to occupy it. And of course, the destabilization with the people when they don't have the leader, when they don't have the president, and you can't join everybody. Yeah. I made a decision without no it was not something emotional, etc. So again, God bless uh the education helped me. I I I understand what to do and I understood what Russians wanted and I uh and I knew what I had to do like the president of the country. And if I can go back to nineteen ninety four and the Budapest Agreement, where United States, the United Kingdom, and Russia agreed that if Ukraine gave its nuclear weapons to Russia, you'd get guarantees of security, sovereignty and border security. That kind of went with Crimea, but it was now with the invasion, it was utterly shattered. Did you feel did your country feel betrayed at that point? For today, looking what's going on in the world, not only in Ukraine, in the Middle East, you understand that the biggest and the strongest security guarantees, it's you . Your country , your people, when you want to exchange something , you can't exchange uh uh some military equipment, doesn't matter by the way, nuclear in this case , in in in your example, or are they, I don't know, air defense and et cetera, or jets, yeah, sky fleet, air fleet and etc. It doesn't mean it meant that you you have to exchange this on similar things. For example, it's uh uh very expensive to hold these jets or the whole big army, you exchange it to the place in NATO. That this NATO fleet will defend you in a very dangerous moment if somebody will come to occupy you or something like this. The same with nuclear weapon. If you decided to change nuclear weapon, the price had to be uh fair. And I think the NATO is the smallest price, smallest what Ukraine, what the leaders of Ukraine and Ministry of Defense, President, Government, the Parliament, what they had to get instead of nuclear weapons. What we've got, we've got nothing. So it's a not fair game. And uh it's a big mistake in any way. By the way, it's not only Ukrainian mistake. I don't want you know to push only these signals to our past and this . It's also about other uh security guarantees who are in this Budapest memo . And it's nuclear countries. If they said that you will not have nuclear weapon, they have to give you umbrella of security, maybe nuclear umbrella, because how you are nuclear countries and other things. And that's why it was lies. Of course it was lies . Without they they've got our nuclear weapon. They moved it by the way to to mostly to the Russian. So not only this, I know how uh strategic aviation was destroyed of Ukraine totally, the biggest uh jets, strategic aviation. So they are very strong. By the way, such strategic jets Russia used against us during this full-scale war. So a lot of different You did have direct dealings with with Vladimir Putin, first by phone, then you had face to face talks with him during the so called Normandy talks when they resumed. The young president who uh understood uh that we have to finish with this because we we need to increase the economy, GDP for Ukraine. And to do this, we need uh investment, we need uh free economy, we need the way to EU uh and and etc. Something what will uh open for the for us markets. And of course uh Russia's influence, the the fact that the temporar ocilycup ied us some territories, of course, and they also blocked uh for us some markets. It was understandable that we need to find a way of stabilizing the situation . That's why we needed to make some format of negotiations because uh when I came, we had already Minsk Agreement. We had the table for meetings and uh technical groups and etc. And we had thousands, no maybe not thousands, but but but hundreds of such technical meetings uh before me and then after and I wanted to speak with with him and uh uh we I wanted very much to end this Minsk agreement because uh for me it was like uh I'm you know you know it's such format of destabilizing , not full scale war, but not peace time. And this is a signal to all the investors. So you can't develop your country. And what's your sense of him today and his psychology and what you actually think he's trying to achieve right now? I understand 100% what he wants today. I think he made historical mista ke with a full-scale war. And of course, occupation was also his mistake. But it was the, you know, the moment of the life when you can find, at least try to find some uh diplomatic way to de-escalate and he moved to this operation which is really became the war moved to operation he said about three four days but we know what was at the end. So this is a full scale war. And he really thought his estimation was that he can occupy us that leaders will take me out or Russians will kill me. It doesn't matter. I mean this how to move me out from from the capital. Yes, and they understood that the Ukrainian people will not join and they will move to the parliament because they had in parliament their party, which was financed by Russia, and the party was the second, by the way, it was big party. They had the plan of operat ofing strateg ie . Our security service produce a report this week that said on the front line, You're doing better than you have for almost a year and yet the the language is all about, you know, he's still going and he keeps going. So what do you think he is trying to achieve now? I think uh for today he understood that he can't occupy us totally . He recognized it for himself and for partners, I'm sure . Sometimes it's different you. Sometimes he he shares with partners uh not the things what he is thinking about really. Yes, but he recognizes that he can't occupy us now. The second point, it's understandable that he has so many losses for today. And on the front, he doesn't have well-trained people, enough number of well-train ed trained uh soldiers and officers to uh destroy us. And uh he needs time for this. And I think that his goal is to find a way out with a victory. That's why he's trying to withdraw us from Danbas by diplomacy, by the way, by the Americans dialogue with us, that we have by ourselves withdraw from Donbass, because for him it's lossses. Hundred of thousands, by the way. We see that he can occupy Danbas in some years if he will be able. I mean, not he can or not. If he will be able to do it, he needs more people, more money, and losses will be from 300,000 to 1 million. It depends how many years he will need additional losses. So this is big price, even for Putin. And that's why he wants to find such uh way of uh of uh ending the war. But for him that will be the pause in the way if we will withdraw from ourselves by ourselves from Dunbas. Of course, he understands that our people, our country will be divided. Because to withdraw by ourselves, you know, partially, people will be against it. Of course. He understands that our unity can be divided. And he will look. If if the unity and society will be divided, he will continue very quickly to make some something like Blitzkrieg and something like this to occupy task. If not, he will need pause. Pause for uh well-trained people for him, for training missions, for increasing the production, and uh for uh blocking us economically, lifting sanctions from his energy sector and etc. Find a way to deal with Europe because ceasefire or something like this uh can help him also. So it's not only our wish. So you said there that he's doing it through the Americans and diplomacy. But surely the do the Americans not understand that for you to give up Donetsk parts of Donbass is impossible because of the soldiers you lost, it's impossible for the people who lived there, it's impossible because of the referendum that you would have to have, which you would lose if you put it there. And it would probably cause some kind of civil war, which presumably he would quite enjoy. So why are the Americans even pushing in that direction when it's they both understand it's literally impossible for you? And because I'm sure that they had uh a lot of different c conversations with Putin and his team. And uh it's a pity but we have to recognize that uh partially Americans are uh feeling that it's nothing for us, it's not such a big price for for the peace to go out the uh from our territories, and they don't want to recognize that Putin will lie them and they're he can continue the occupation even after such steps. The they are sure Americans are sure that if uh we will withdraw Putin will uh Putin that they can trust Putin. I think that is the the biggest problem that we don't trust Putin and I think that they trust him. But even even the American people, if you look at opinion, I saw an opinion poll two weeks ago, you were the most popular world leader in the United States and Putin was second bottom only to Kim Jong un . So they don't the people don't trust him. Why do Whitkoff and Kushner and Trump trust somebody who's shown himself to be so untrustworthy? Too much time together first . The second point that uh really they made I think in Alaska some negotiations, they spoke about it and I think that Putin was very open, very uh for him it was great success that americans involved him and invited him uh but american people are on our side and this is great this is what helps us a lot and this is big support. When I had meeting with uh negotiation group in Berlin first ly, and I I began to speak with them, not on the groups to groups, our negotiation group. I wanted to speak with them, to understand them. And I think that they understood me that not everything's simple. Yes, and they contrast uh Putin and they told me that really it was very, very important, very useful. We began to speak to each other before I didn't have such uh possibility because Vitkov uh went only to Moscow and I didn't have communications with with him but um sometimes our partners think that one element and it will bring them quick uh successful victory like ceasefire yeah but you know we need ceasefire for for the long period of time not just for the week for the week of celebration and then again, continuation of this tragedy. But I know what Putin's want. And he knows that I understand him . And he knows also that I understand that they are not so strong at the battle field. And I think that he knows that only me understand and that's why they share with uh with Americans a lot of, you know, I mean this not truth, yeah, blah blah and etc . So this is where we are. And I said very openly to our American friends, I'm thankful that they really want, they really want to end this war. It's true. And I said to them, look, if you want to try to negotiate any kind of these territorial challenges, you need to organize and to push Putin to a trilateral meeting on the level of leaders. He doesn't want because this is the answer. I said I will give you some examples where you will find the answer if he really wants to end the war or not. First, try to organize organize meeting on the level of leaders speak about territories. He didn't want. First. Second, if he doesn't want after ceasefire to occupy us, propose him to put American soldiers with Europe ans on the contact line. He said to them, no, any kind of soldiers. So it means that he will go forward. So he wants to go forward . The third point, he has about 20, I don't know, 17, 18, or 20 million millions of square kilometers his territory of Russia. And when he speaks with Amer icans, he said, Look, what is the problem? It's about six thousand square kilometers. So can you imagine really that the person which has dozens of millions of square kilometers, and seventy percent of these square kilometers are without life, any infrastructure. Do we really trust that he needs five point eight thousand square kilometers. That this is the goal. No, this is not the goal. The goal is other things. It's like strategic place. So yes, it's true. It's not only geopolitical. From the format of of the war, he will have these uh industrial uh cities, and after this industrial cities where we have fortification defending lines to the field, open field, and straight roads to our regional capitals like Dniepro, Kharkiv and et cetera. So it's I mean this it's understandable for what he wants it. It's it's very hard watching living in the UK as I do and doing this podcast every week and covering talking about Ukraine a lot. It's very hard not to think that the Trump administration is is basically on his side. We saw the the meeting where JD Vance started an ambush with you, he criticizes you, he blames you. Putin is a dictator. He's broken international law. He started the war. And yet he never criticized him. And as we speak, you and I are speaking now at a time when J.D. Vance is on the way to Hungary to interfere directly in an election in support of Victor Orban, who's done more than any other European leader, to undermine you, support Putin. So do you just have to suck that up and grin and bear it because you still need the Americans. And how hard is that? It's difficult. I mean, sometimes you can't feel what's going on here in Europe. The same that in Europe, we can't feel everything what's going on, for example, in the Middle East. And I'm not sure that now uh J D with all respect and etc. But I'm not even his coming to Budapest, I'm not I I'm not sure that it's helpful, you know, between us. Between us, yes. Between us. Maybe they are friends. Yes. Between us and we have many billions of listeners. Between all of us. No, I'm I mean that this is the situation in Europe. Yeah. That uh I I always all my message been about the unity between Europe and the United States because I think that it doesn't matter, it's NATO or an other name. The question is the most strong union in the world, security union, it's Europe and the United States, with all respects to other countries and continents. And today we see dividing of this, this is not good. So for today, United States support for Hungarians, I'm not sure that it's support. Yes, I'm not I'm not on the side of this guy from Hungary, it's understandable why. But I don't want to be involved today, lections. People by themselves, they will decide. That's why I said that I'm not sure that today the team of the United States that they really understand all the details, what Russia wants. You know, I had the document, for example, Russians uh shared with Iranian regime, energy objects, and also military, but mostly energy objects on the territory of uh Middle East countries and the Gulf, and also Israel, and also a lot of different countries. So they shared with them, they used satellites , made images they shared with Iranians. And also American bases are there. And I shared this information, even publicly I shared. But did we hear the reaction of the United States to Russia, that they have to stop it. And uh that's why I think this this is the the problem that they trust Putin and it's a pity. It's a pity. But you mentioned NATO a couple of times and Trump is currently saying that he thinks NATO is a bit of a busted flush. Europe is very good with the words of support, but is that being matched by reality and can they can they fill a gap that the Americans might leave in your de fenses? This is a difficult question. As I said a little bit a little bit earlier, that I really think that the union between the United States and Europe is very important . And if United States really thinks about how to withdraw from the NATO, what we heard from officials, even officials pu public that they think about it, all the security in Europe will based only on EU. So we want, for example, you will understand me, we want to be a part of EU, and we will be, I'm sure. But I think that for today, EU is in such a situation when they need some countries, UK UK Ukraine, Turkey, Norway. There are different questions to each of these countries according to the laws, internal questions, and etc. But there are four strong countries which are part of Europe and these countries as between us, between us, UK, Ukraine, and Turkia, this is the army which will be stronger than the army of Russia. That is the answer. Without Ukraine and Turkia, Europe will not have similar army of that Russia has. With Ukraine, Turkey, Norway and UK , you will control security on the seas, not one sea. This is the answer. And that's why these four countries, EU also has to find a way , friendship, strategic partner way how to involve these four countries and be the strongest union of economy and security. It's not about offensive. No, no, no. I'm speaking about defending, only defending security in the sea, security in the sky, and the biggest land forces. I was in Kiev for the fourth anniversary and that's when I I saw you there on the ceremony in the Maidan, and I was with the enlargement commissioner, Marta Koss, for the fourth anniversary, and I went to quite a lot of meetings. We kept hearing that yes, got to get into the European Union, but several things we heard. First was there is still a worry about corruption, there is still a worry about the pace of reform, but also from your side, a worry about whether France and Germany in particular want any enlargement of the European Union at the moment. What's your what's your sense of all that? We have to do our reforms not only for EU or or somebody. We need it for ourselves. We can do as much as possible. We can't do more during the war. We do a a lot. I think we do more than we can. I think that we need to survive . Yesterday I was in Syria, and I'm so happy that they have life. I saw a lot of children and they saw our flags, Ukrainian flags, and they applaud, by the way. So this is their attitude, and they understand that they are very uh they are strong and etc. But now the economy is not so strong. Yes, of course, they're on the way. They are on the way. But when the war began in Ukraine, it's understandable that Russia moved all their forces from Africa, from Syria, from a lot of different countries, they moved to Ukraine, and Ukraine killed all their Wagner group and etc. And they understand that they are strong, but Ukraine made them uh a lot, I think so. Yes. And uh and and we see that what does it mean when Russia, when they Russians and Iranians, they destroyed a lot of things in Syria. They need years and years to you know to renovate everything. And we will need years. And now Europe do esn't feel it. God bless, will not. What does it mean ? What is it first ? I think with reforms, it's very important, with different laws, it's very important. We will make decisions. But security is number one . And only in unity. Because when Russia has the decision to have two million army for these years and before 2030 to have army two point half million, Europe has to think first of all about security and how to hold the life which they like , the level of this life , how to hold this and how to save their history and their independen ce. They all have to think about it. Focusing what we spoke earlier in such difficult moment, you have to focus on one thing. Very important. To make everything with your security. Russia has to be afraid of the unity of these countries . When you will do this , all the people in your continent they will be happier and then make other steps . And I think when you want to find a way about uh Ukraine's uh place in EU or uh what to do with uh for example UK they've been in EU, then they are not in EU and again with Turkia they're afraid because a lot of, I don't know, vegetables or big agricultural car. It's understandable about markets. But you will manage all this. You will manage. If you have great economy, you have to save your country and then economy . First of all, security. Second is economy, not opposite. And the you you mentioned and we've run over time, I know, but can I just ask you about you mentioned that you'd been in the Middle East and I thought that was a really interesting strateg ic move. Um you've been to the Gulf, as you say, you're in Syria yesterday, you have a lot of contact with that region now. Can we read into that a set of new partners hips that you think are going to help you in the war? Is this about you giving them the technology that they need to fight Iranian drones since the war in Iran? Or is there something longer term that you can plan that actually helps you uh yeah longer term for you for Ukraine's forward strategy? Well i in our strategy it's long term relations . How not only de fend uh and uh destroy Iranian drones. It's not about Iranians or Russian, doesn't matter. It's about system what we have. The system its security in the sky and also how to save energy, how to think about uh infrastructure, how to save it, water supplies and etc. how to build fortifications. It's not simple things, it's all in the system. They understood Middle East. I was there some years ago. I wanted very much to uh find a way how to go together. We needed very much anti ballistic and we needed money, we didn't have enough fundings for ourselves. And I tried. But only when war came to you, to your country, you are ready to make progress. And that's why. And I think all our experience about the systems which we will provide co-production and this uh system to um uh middle east countries we we will be able to do this and to do this together you they will be ready also to be very open. Are you worried that the war in Iran is not just taking attention away from Ukraine, but taking defenses away from Ukraine as well ? Of course. Of course. The focus is on the Middle East now of the United States. Then it's meant that uh in any way , uh for the United States for today it's priority. And of course it can take it if if the war will be long, I don't know, uh God bless they will make some uh ceasefire steps and etcetera. I don't know. But I know one thing that long war , uh it's uh uh using a lot of different weapons what we need anti ballistic missiles, patriot missiles, what we need very much . And of course they can move it to the Middle East. Uh and we will have deficits. Even before this were war, we had deficits with these uh, you know, components, but uh with war, of course.. Yes So uh this is the problem then. They lifted sanctions from energy sector, partially from the Russian energy sector. And uh if Russia had big deficit, about one hundred billions for twenty twenty six. It was our estimation. For now they have now additional money. They have each day because the sanctions have been lifted from Russian oil. So this is also the problem . Yes, but what the system, what we proposed, and they understood Middle East countries, and they're very happy with our uh what we shared with with them, our experience, how to help uh their people, civilians, of course, to defend. I think this is what we need to do now in our union in Europe to do, not to wait. Not to wait when it will be late. Why I don't trust then that they will just stop the war in Ukraine. They really can stop this war in Ukraine, but it doesn't mean that they will stop. Because they they can go on other directions where the situation will be more simple for them. Most small countries not well prepared for the war. It's understandable why, because they didn't have occupation. So that's why they can move the air. Because it's very difficult when you increased the production, when a lot of of your business partners are around military sector in Russia, when they make today a lot of money. To stop such machine. So that's why you need to go somewhere to do something, not to decrease all these uh productions, uh military productions, and etc. So a lot of diff diff different business, Russian business make money on this war now. Yeah for sure. Well listen, I it's been fantastic to talk to you. I I my dream for the world is that Ukraine, the UK and Canada all enter the European Union. Canada is great partner. Yeah, for sure. Mark is great prime uh uh uh prime minister, really. Yeah um if I can just ask one one final question. I was deeply moved at the Maidan by the flags and the pictures of all the fallen soldiers that went on and on and on. When you're the leader in a war like this, how do you avoid becoming so us ed to being told of the deaths of soldiers that you actually cease to feel the impact. Do you have to harden yourself or can you actually always feel the impact of that? And I guess that's a way of asking as well. We hear a lot about Ukrainian resilience, but how do you manage your own resilience and mental health? Yeah uh first of all you you you you can't uh control this uh pain and you can't forget it. I give orders to not only to soldiers officers but also one of the difficultest moments for me when I g ive it to mothers or fathers and to husbands, wives with children on their heads, and when they when I give the orders for their relatives, for their children who been killed by Russians. And I do it personally. You mean the m the medals ? The medals. Yeah. When I give them, I always do it. I I 'm trying to do it personally not not to forget about these people and to feel because all these people mothers and father they always say something. And uh they say something. Sometimes they are worry strong but cry. And uh sometimes they need just hinks . And um that's why I I I feel all this all these losses and I have to feel and I think that the president has to feel it. He has to look to the eyes of these people who gave their relatives, their children, the lives of their children. They gave it. And that's why we live . Only this reason, that's why we live, because somebody gave his own life for this. And what about you and your is how do you s look after yourself? No, for me is you know, uh on the attacks we feel like like the attacks and I mean this when when there are losses it's a big pain and uh but psychologically I think that uh we all in distress in any way it's I mean this it's when we look at our children, we see how it's you know how what the questions uh they have that they are not uh I mean this they're that they're not happy. It's children have to be happyy. The they are not children, they are adults, as I I said about it, once I see t when I look to the eyes of my thirteen years sin, I see that mm it's the eyes of of of adults, not about children. Well thank you. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for everything you do. I don't know how you do it and now you keep smiling. We love our country and our life. And that's why we have to, you know, not to forget the all the feelings of the of the life. Yes, because I mean this we pay big pr big price for for for for for this. It's understandable, yeah. But don't forget that we are we that we are people. We are not uh you know, we are not robots robots, yeah. We're we're people with with pluses and minuses. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank your team as well. They've been great. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. Thanks so much. Bye bye.