The American Dream and Future Policy

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To get started with Woop today. Hello and welcome to The Rest is Politics US with me, Kathy K in a very dreary Washington DC. Anthony is off this week. He is being a superstar in his son's movie, so we're very excited about that. Can't wait to see his starring role. I hope he's learned his lines. I texted him yesterday, said get on it, don't forget. So filling in for Anthony today, we have the host of the weekend show on MS Now and of very good friend of mine, Eugene Daniels. Eugene, I'm so happy to have you here. Hello, Katie. I'm so excited to be here. I'm honored, actually. Also I want to be in a movie. How do we get in this movie? The only movie I've ever been in, I shot down on C Capitol Hill and of course I ended up on the cutting room floor. I was down there all day and I had to play a member of the press corps and then I watched the movie and nothing. So I don't know. You I think if your son is making the movie, you can probably guarantee that you don't end up on the editing room floor. That's the way to do it. Yeah. Price you haven't been in a movie actually, Eugene. I'll put your name forward. You'd be good at that. Thanks. So it's lovely to have you on the show. I should fill in a bit. You were also a White House correspond for Politico for a long time, and you wrote the Politico playbook. So there are very few people who are more plugged into what is happening in the White House uh and in Washington than you are, which is why it's so great to have you on the program. Today we are gonna talk about Donald Trump heading to China uh later this week. This huge important summit which was delayed from the beginning of the war. It's happening this week on Thursday, Friday. An enormous amount is at stake. in this summit, but of course hanging over it all is the shadow of Iran and uh I was speaking to a senator this morning who said, look, he is heading into this summit weaker than he would have done because of the war in Iran. So we're gonna talk about that. And in the second half of the program we're gonna talk about Virginia and the Supreme Court ruling that overruled the vote in Virginia to redistrict the state. It was like a million years ago, but it just happened. It was like a million years ago. We haven't been on air since then, and I thought it was worth discussing because I do think it has ramifications for the midterms, and they may not be as disastrous as the most suicidal democrats who are texting me. seem to think it is. Yes. But let's let's kick off with China and Iran. You were covering the White House in the first term and he went to China and they had I didn't even know that such a thing existed, but the Chinese gave him a state visit Plus. I suppose no one wants to state visit minus, right? I mean that's Like not something you would want That's the bad one. That's the bad one. He got the state visit plus and the Chinese rolled out every piece of red carpet they could find in the country and showered him with love and praise. And I'm just do is this gonna be the same? Is this gonna be the same sort of maybe it has to be a gold carpet now anyway, or a gold statue. A gold statue of Trump? Maybe that would help if you if you turned up at Beijing Airport. All of these leaders understand Donald Trump. Sometimes I think better than he understands himself, they know that a long red carpet, um, maybe a flyover of some jets, you know, a lot of people walking around, all of that makes him move. differently. He wants to feel important. It is the pump and circumstance of the presidency that is kind of his favorite part, right? When everyone stands in the house chamber when the state of the union happens and he gets announced. All of those kinds of things are the kinds of things that if you are a leader of a different country, that ingratiates you with Donald Trump. And so what I I'd assume it'd be something similar, but the the relationship is different. The timing is very different. And kind of the temperament is going to be different. What they're asking for, what we're asking for as the United States and what China's gonna probably want in return are going to be completely different things than they would have been and that they were in that first term. And that they would have been two months ago when this trip was originally supposed to happen. I mean, to that point of its kind of with Trump often it's all personal and foreign leaders kind of now get Trump after however long he's been on our national stage, four hundred and thirty years. They it's this. I mean it feels like that. I wonder sometimes if he mistakes these relationships because he is proud of saying that he has good personal relationships with Kim Jong un, with Vladimir Putin, with um the king of the United Kingdom with Xi Jinping. And I don't know that he really understands he may be misjudging the power of the relationship and the nature of it the relationship himself, and in a way that could weaken his position. Cause I think he thinks I can go in there, be leader to leader, work my famous art of the deal charm on him with a bit of leverage thrown in. And because we understand each other man to man, we're gonna get something done which is some kind of grand bargain. And I don't know that he realizes that's not actually the way that they have processes and they actually do have institutions and they do have a national security council or whatever the national security council equivalent is. Exactly. And this goes through formal steps. It's not actually all just done leader to leader. And anyway, he may not have that great relationship that he thinks he does. He overestimates himself and underestimates everyone that sits across from him, right? That is kind of how Donald Trump has has always operated. The Chinese are very skilled negotiators. They're very proud people. The leadership there is very proud. They are a superpower also. It's not like you're going to you know, he's going to some state where uh, you know, South Dakota or North Dakota talking to the governor, he's talking to a superpower. It reminds me of like when you were a kid and someone would be like, you're my best friend. You'd be like, You're my I'm your best friend, but you're not my best friend. That's what it feels like with some of these relationships with Donald Trump is that he anticipates that he has these strong personal relationships because they've pulled out the little red carpet, they gave him a gift, they talked. nice about him. And when you talk to ambassadors of as I have, as I know you have, who are in those rooms who prep their leaders for these kinds of visits, is they prep their leaders to basically just shower him with praise. Shower him with praise. He will kind of be nice to you and you guys can probably get what you want. But then when the leader leaves in that post meeting that they all have with the ambassador, the leaders rolling their eyes, laughing at Trump. A lot of them look at him and see him as someone who's not prepared, right? He he famously doesn't Read all of the documents that other presidents tend to read. He goes off of his instincts. All of the documents? Or any of the documents. Any of them. And also his team. There were stories a couple of um weeks ago, months ago at this point. that the chief of staff, Susie Wiles in the White House was getting concerned because she didn't think, according to the reporting, that the president of the United States was getting a full view of the Iran War. And that is kind of how if if it's the war, it's all of the issues that Donald Trump looks at. It's the polling that they show him. So he's not getting a full picture. of the impacts of his presidency and how the actions of his presidency are impacting his popularity. And so you have a whole you know he goes in there thinking he's the most popular person in the world and everybody should love him, but then that is not at all how it actually operates. And you You know, remember he was talking to the UN. And everyone was laughing at him and he thought they were laughing at his joke. But when you talk to the leaders that were in that room when he did that speech in his first term, they would tell you that we were laughing at how silly it was. And that's what you hear from the leaders. And he doesn't seem to get that. And if his team gets that, it doesn't appear that they're like, Telling him that. We're actually going to be speaking a lot more about Susie Wells in the bonus episode for founding members, if you'd like to listen to that. Do you think he wants this China visit? I mean, I know it was pushed back, right, from the beginning of the Iran War and My reporting is that they pushed it back and they hoped that the Iran war would be done and dusted. And as we're recording this on Monday morning, the latest is that the latest peace proposal that was flying around Donald Trump on a truth social post late Sunday night, roundly rejected and said it's totally unsatisfactory, it doesn't work. So he's going into this meeting with a with a hot wall, literally, and a very unstable situation in the Middle East, and it's a hot war that he had hoped that he would have won. by the time he met Xi Jinping. How does that affect how he goes into the meeting. I mean even Trump cannot be deluding himself. That he's going into this meeting with the strongest possible hand. Right? I mean I know he has a way of No, he does. I know I know he likes to bend reality to his own reality. Exactly. But do you think he's go sit getting on the plane later this week to fly to China, which he probably doesn't want to do. It's a long way, jet lag. He wants to be home in Mar-Lago in the White House mostly. Thinking actually I'm in a great position. Yes, I do. I think that he always thinks that. Yes, I think there is D have did you read Maggie Haberman's book? Yes, man. We talked about it. We did a series on Trump and and we talked to Maggie for it. It is such a if if you if folks who are listening, if you want to understand Trump's psyche, that is probably the best book to do it in. He has been convincing himself and other people of things for decades. He is 79, 80, 80 years old. So that means his entire life, almost a hundred years at this point, he has been convincing himself of great he is in convincing the world of that thing. Now if if if we had old man go in his head and and pull out things, would he believe it? It's hard to know. But the way that he operates is as if the confidence of that you project is the most important. thing. And so does he want to go on this trip? I don't know that he wants to flight, but I do think that Donald Trump in the second term has been so focused. And you talk to people around him and they will say this, he is so focused on the legacy aspect of this. And he knows that presidents who have like long lasting legacies for the most part, there was some kind of international component to it, right? It's it's rare that a president gets to be, you know, a legacy if he doesn't have some kind of international peace deal or doesn't stop a doesn't win a war. doesn't happen as much. And that's how he views the presidency and hit this current presidency. And when you talk to folks who are around Donald Trump, Steve Bannon has said this publicly, is that they want him to be focused more on domestic issues, but his eyes are set. on you know getting the, you know, the Nobel Peace Prize and all of and being seen as someone who has stature. Because at the end of the day, that is so important to him. So he wants to go on this trip because of that, but he also sees himself as the leader of the strongest country in the world. I probably I also imagine that he doesn't see China really on the same level. The way that he talks about it sure doesn't make it seem like it is. It seems like He believes the United States, above all else, is the most powerful country in the world. And there's a truth to that. But that doesn't mean that other countries aren't nipping at our heels or and are um have beaten us in a lot of different metrics when you look at how do you grade the greatest country in the world. I mean you speak to a lot of people who are around Trump, um, and you covered the White House for years. Do you get any sense that he's going into this meeting and And kind of juggling the Iran situation, which doesn't seem to be going well for him, realizing that in the eyes of the Chinese, The United States of America, the great United States of America, the biggest economy in the world, the biggest military in the world, has just been brought to its knees by a second rate power. And does do you do you think he doesn't go realizing that because we know he would have liked this wrapped up. that he is frustrated with the war, right? It's why they cancelled it the first time. It's why they cancelled it the first time. Exactly. So the logic of that is that you then set it for hoping that it's finished. But it hasn't finished. It hasn't finished. And course it wasn't gonna be finished. Like this, like it's it's in in his head, it's Venezuela. It'll be done in a couple of days, whatever the operation is. But Iran is completely different. And you know, when you talk to even people who are allies of his, they will say that he has misjudged the Iran war, their ability to obviously close the Strait of Hormuz, their ability to keep fighting back, how how many munitions they continue to have stored. He keeps saying this 18 to 20% number that they only have that left when the intel, according to reports, is that they have 70 to 75% of pre-war munitions. And so I do think he go, he goes in and he still continues to think that he has the upper hand. He does not, this is New York real estate 101, right? At some point, you're faking it and faking it and faking it. And it just becomes a part of who you are. That's when I talk to young journalists, I'm like, go take a psychology course because understanding how like the human psyche work is so key to understanding how these politicians operate. Donald Trump. truly believes he is the best negotiator on earth. He that's why he truly believes that he is the best communicator in in the White House in the administration in the country. And when he goes there to China, he is going to believe that he's gonna sit across from Xi Jinping. and be able to convince him of anything. And while other presidents would leave there and the readout would be, you know, we had great conversation, they're coming closer to us. on the other hand will actually believe what he's saying, whereas other presidents will know that it's a spin. It's like Tun Tzu in the Art of War, you know, when you're weak appear strong. He doesn't actually think that he appears weak. He he thinks that he appears strong. W What do you make of the rejection? of the late of the of the news this morning that Trump is not happy with what the Iranians have proposed. And what's your understanding of the conversations in the White House around what America's options are now? Because it seems To me, uh there's a great piece I would recommend everyone read, Checkmate. on Iran. It's in the Atlantic, Robert Kagan, who is a s big, longtime Iran hawk, and he is now saying it is time to accept defeat and pull out of this situation, which has not done any favors for Donald Trump. Um it's in the Atlantic we'll put it in the newsletter, but I really urge you to read it. It's one of the best things on Iran at the moment. His argument is we're never going back to the status quo ante. We can't wrestle control of the Strait of Hormuz from the Iranians because the Iranians will just attack. neighboring countries and neighboring energy facilities, and that will have a massive ripple effect around the world. So we're actually leaving the situation in a worse position because the Iranians do de facto and will do going forward have some control over the Strait of Hormuz. That's just the way it's going to be. And with the revenue that they make from that, they're going to rebuild their ballistic missiles and they'll move faster, rebuild their nuclear Arsenal as well. Where does Trump think this is going? D are there any smart ideas inside the White House at the moment about how to avoid what looks like a pretty catastroph defeat. I mean, Kagan is even saying you it's defeat and just he's gonna have to accept defeat and hope that the American voters forget. that he was defeated. And i he will never say he was defeated, right? No. What I have heard from folks inside the White House is that for for many of them, the best case scenario. is that they end up with something that kind of looks like the JCPOA, so the Obama Iran deal. Um, the straight up for moves is open and Donald Trump gets to stamp his name on both of those things and kind of walk away. after you have shaken the hornet's nest, after you have have forced Iran and the regime there. To even understand their own power. Right? Like diplomats will say that Iran also is kind of surprised about how like steadfast they've been. That regime was kind of on the ropes before the war started, right? The economy was terrible. Yes, they'd kills in the streets. Thousands of people in January because they had to. And if anything, this seems to have made the regime more solidified. Yes, and the leadership of the country, the new leadership, who we still have yet to see, the Nuaya Tolo, which people should know. But he is the son of the the one that was killed by the United States and Israel. And at the end of the day, it sounds like the sun is more hard line. So it means that the problem of Iran, as the United States has put it for a very long time, is only gonna get harder to deal with, right? And I don't know that Donald Trump really thinks or cares. about the long term impacts, right? He doesn't really care what the next president has to deal with. He cares about what he has to as president deal with. And the folks in the White House are looking for an off ramp so he can say That he had a successful something or other. And really, honestly, the American people, and this is just true of any foreign entanglement, they Only care? Right. vast public. If American boots are on the ground. Right? If the American are put in harm's way. And since we haven't put boots on the ground, we've lost 13 service members. But if we haven't put boots on the ground. then the American people will probably forget. So long as gas prices come down. Exactly. If gas prices go down, which the CEO of Exxon just last week said on a call is unlikely to happen that the full impacts of what's going on with oil. has not hit the market yet. And so it doesn't seem like gas prices are going to go down anytime soon. And the a lot of folks haven't actually made that connection. Iran is the reason why gas prices are high. Not everybody. And honestly, Trump's voters are going to get hit more. They're more likely to live in rural areas where there's a lack of access to public transportation. And so they're driving longer, right? They're driving 50 miles sometimes in a day from home to work. to the grocery store and that impact they care about, but the kind of, you know, whether we went to war, right? Like what the that aspect of it is is hard for them to grasp sometimes. It's such a good point because actually what cities are overwhelmingly democratic. Cities are the places where you have public transport networks, the people who had to drive to their healthcare job, to their manufacturing job. they tend to be more of Donald Trump's base and they're the ones that were hit by tariffs in the first place and are now being hit by the high gas prices. I wanna eat. Are you seeing any signs, Eugene, that that's having an impact? On Trump's Pus I know obviously it's having an impact on the polling. We're all seeing the the impact on the polling. And the impact is it is it having an impact on a perception that the White House likes to say Trump's playing 4D chess. And that he is the skilled negotiator and it is all of the art of the deal. Is that image being impacted? by what's happening right now, do you think? I do. And I think There's the there's the maga base who isn't gonna go anywhere, right? I in 2018, when I was at Politico, we went to Iowa and we went to a soybean farm. And the soybean farmer, this is when he was having his first fight with China over soybeans and tariffs. And the farmer had lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in months. And I asked him, he was a Trump voter, I said So do you blame Donald Trump or you upset with him? He said, I have to believe that he has a plan. And I think like that has led me to believe that he Trump can convince these folks that voted for him and supported for him, the hardcore folks. Um to believe anything, right? He has this uncanny political ability to convince people of anything and make them doubt their own eyes and ears, right? When they really support them. I also think back to that psychology aspect, it's very hard to say that you were wrong. Right? Like you can ask my husband. It's very difficult for me to be like, you know, I messed up. I was wrong. And I think that's the same thing with voters. Is that at the end of the day, it is very difficult to say I voted for the wrong person. Who messes up you or your husband, by the way? I can't believe you ever do, Eugene. It must be always his fault, right? It's always him. That's what I say. Always the one who messes up. Oh, it's wrong. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's funny how it works. It's so funny. And so like he his ability to convince them of anything, however The folks that people need to watch are the Republicans that held their nose. and voted for him because they didn't like Kamala. The I call them rented voters, right? The voters who maybe voted for Democrats, black men, brown men who may have voted for Democrats in the past, who thought Trump was gonna keep us out of wars and keep the prices low. And the independents those are the folks where the view of Donald Trump has changed. The people that he convinced who kind of like had an issue with some of the racism, had an issue with with some of the uh the way he spoke about people, about women, about everybody. Um they they voted for him anyway because they believe their lives would be better. And that is key. And if their life does not feel better, they do not believe that he's the key negotiator. They do not believe that he is the man who can fix it all. I alone can fix it. They are seeing that that is not the case. What what some of those maga photos like the guy you the soybean farmer who you Interviewed in Iowa. I'm wondering too w just the nature of the fact of this second term, how much time and attention. let alone money. And I think we haven't got to the really interesting reporting yet, which is starting to be done on how much this war is actually in dollars and cents costing American voters, because I think that's going to be super interesting too. But how what do they think of the amount of time and attention Donald Trump is spending on these foreign ventures? I mean I don't know if most of them could find Venezuela on a map. I'm not sure I could have found Venezuela on a map until Maduro came onto the picture. Until recently I ha you know, I actually did go to Caracas, I think, for Chavez's funeral. So maybe hopefully after that I could still find it on a map. But most people, you know, Venezuela's far away, it didn't impact most people. Maduro did not impact most American voters. Iran also I mean it was i ironically it was Donald Trump who said we d Venezuela is close. It's not a twenty hour flight away. That's why we're not getting involved in the Middle East. And then of course a couple of months later he gets involved in the Middle East. And now he's going to China, which is a very important trip. I mean, there are a lot of people nervous that he's going to undermine, you know, Taiwan's pr position. Just had a text actually from Senator Chris Kuhn, who we spoke to when we were in Davos, um, who said that he's concerned that Trump may well give away something substantial on either AI or Taiwan just to have a win. as he sees it on trade at the summit, because Trump's gonna want to come away and say he got something out of it. But Kuhnz is saying also that he thinks Iran does significantly weaken Trump. uh because of how he's mishandled it and because of the divisions that it's created. With our allies. course, Xi Jinping knows this and knows that Americans are worried about this. There are very real issues that need to be dealt with, the Chinese. But I could imagine quite a lot of MAGA voters might be thinking, Why is he going off again? You know, why is why does he keep doing these foreign things when we're paying seven dollars a gallon at the gas pump in some states in America for gas? I mean the the It just feels like his attention is focused elsewhere. And maybe that's the legacy element that you're talking about. But it I wonder whether that also has an impact on MAGA voters at some point. Why is he flying to China? Why is he spending so much time in Iran? Why is he talking about the reflecting pool that he keeps calling the reflecting pond? Why is he knocking down the East Wing? Why is he putting challenge coins on the doors? around the White House and gluing them. Why is he doing all of these things that don't impact my life? Right. That is what voters care about. And this is sometimes when you talk to politicians as I as we both do all the time. Sometimes some of some of them really grasp that at the end of the day. They don't have the power. It's actually people who voted for them. that I have the power. The problem is for so long the elite in this country have convinced the vast majority of voters and including Magan Republican voters, Democrats, all of the above. that the power is held in Washington, DC. And I think when you when voters watch you not doing what they sent you for, right, what what they pay you for, what your job is, what you said you were going to do, the frustration builds and builds and builds. And the question is, where does it go? Right. Some people will still hold their nose and vote for Republicans, right? Because that's what they know. But I think nowadays you're also seeing voters willing to be like, you know what? My life has not been great for a long time. If high gas prices, Caddy, were the only thing that the American people were dealing with, then this would not be as much of a problem for Republicans. But it's high gas prices. It's the Obama kept subsidies that lapse. So healthcare is astronomical. The grocery bills are higher. Don't underestimate healthcare. Huge issue. It's such a huge issue. And the question always is for voters, is my life better off since I voted for you? Answer is no. Nowadays, they are willing to look elsewhere. Ask Joe Biden, ask Kamala Harris, right? The voters who were typically Democrat are willing to look elsewhere because someone was promising them something. that he was going to fix it. And I think his ability to convince everyone of anything still only goes so far. His polling numbers terrible. And he has that, he has that kind of floor or that ceiling of like 30 something percent that's never going anywhere. That is not good. That's not good polling for anyone. that has paid attention to polling at any point, like no president would want that polling. And they would try to fix it in the first term. polling bad headlines would change Trump's mind a little bit on on where he was doing things. That is no longer the case. Yeah. And Republicans would love him to not be think not be involved in Iran, not be involved in all these foreign ventures, but be focused on those questions of affordability. Meanwhile, he flies off to China and the Chinese are getting a whole load of information. about how America conducts war, how many missiles it has, what its missile plan use is, um, what its intelligence gathering capability is, how quickly it is burning through some of its advanced um missiles and munitions and all of that is very useful information if you're sitting in Beijing. So I it's hard to see how this summit doesn't start with Beijing at a bit of an advantage. Now, before we go to a break, don't forget that the pre-sale is now open for the North America tour that We are doing this October. We're heading to Atlanta, Toronto, Boston, New York, DC, Minneapolis, and Chicago. Anthony and I are super excited about this. We can't wait to see you all there and meet you and take your questions live. Just sign up at the restispoliticsus.com for the exclusive pre-sale link. Tickets are already selling, guys. General sale then opens up this Friday. Okay. Let's take a break. We'll be back to talk about the Democrats. Mm. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are times when things might feel a little bit off, but we just carry on and don't really stop to deal with it all. It's stress, it's pressure, anxiety, the kind of things most of us carry, often shaped by the pace pressure of daily life. This May is dedicated to mental health awareness, giving us a good moment to pause and check in with ourselves. And this is where better help comes in. It offers access to experienced therapists, giving you the space to talk things through and make sense of what's on your mind, helping you to take a step back from everything you're going through every day and gain some of that much needed perspective. Better Help handles the initial matching for you. You fill out a short questionnaire. They match it with a therapist, and if it's not quite the right fit. You can switch at any time. You really don't have to be on this journey alone, and that's so important. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get ten percent off at betterhelp.com slash tripus. That's betterh L P dot com. slash trip US. Welcome back. Eugene, in the first half, you were talking a bit about blazers and Democrats and voter enthusiasm and how Trump's numbers are so in the polls that it's going to be terrible for the Republicans in November. So what has happened in the last few days may tilt the balance the other way a little bit because. Republicans are doing everything they can to make the map as friendly as they can to themselves. We covered the Virginia vote on redistricting on this program. Virginia's Supreme Court struck down the congressional redistricting map that had been approved by voters. Which means that they go back to the old map. Virginia Democrats had felt that the new Mat that the Virginia voters voted on and approved would have nett them an extra four democratic leaning seats. Um, those have now been taken away and we get back to where we were. Of course, this follows. Texas is redistricting, California is redistricting, um Louisiana is redistricting, Florida looks like it's gonna be redistricting. We are now in a full on redistricting arms race. And the Democrats, it looks like, are kind of running out of weapons. It's a bit like the sort of whole thing of who's looking at who's got more munitions because it feels to me that the Democrats in this arms race have an inherent disadvantage. How much of a blow because I was getting text from Democrats on Friday. They should be, Oh, fucking. Oh my God. I can say that is a podcast. Like, oh Christ, we can never come back from this. And they were getting super depressed on Friday. How much of a blow, because now I'm coming around to having had three days and maybe it's just looking at it differently. How much of a blow do you think this is to Democrats in the midterms? I mean democrats were always going to be at a disadvantage because in the way that they have been talking about um redistricting for years is the exact opposite of mid-district gerrymandering, right? They've talked about, you know, these independent commissions and all of these other things. And so they have in many of the states around the country um tied themselves their hands behind the back. Some of their constitution say that they can't do this. Um, I will say this. It's also I talked to a lot of Virginia Democrats and Republicans over the last couple of days. They say is is not great, right? They there I think a lot of Virginia Democrats are concerned about the Supreme Court's Just striking down something that voters voted for, right? That's where they're struggling with and they're trying to think of what's next other than um asking the s US Supreme Court to rule on this. Yeah, which is never gonna do by November guys. So We don't have time for that. It's not gonna happen. I think they know that, but they gotta they have to be caught fighting is what voters have been wanting from them. And so I think what people have been telling me is that um they're probably gonna win in their eyes, Democrats are gonna win two seats, two more seats instead of four. Right. So it kind of is a wash. That's what a democratic member of Congress told me. That actually it would give them two seats. So if they'll lose two seats effectively. Exactly. And also maybe. thing about gerrymandering is that you can only do it based on past information. And so you have to assume all of the things will stay the same. You have to assume all of the voters that voted the last time are going to vote the exact same way. you have to assume that as you carve it up, people aren't moving, people aren't coming in. So it is, it is very difficult to do. And when you have a kind of chaotic politics like we have right now and voters feeling like we'll try anything, it makes it so much more difficult. Yeah, I think you're right. I I think Democrats were feeling really glum last Friday. And this week at the beginning of the week, they're feeling a little bit less desperate about this. And I think their thinking had been like Damn, we were on track to win something like twenty to thirty seats if this is a good year for us in the midterm elections in November and have a handsome majority in the House. But a Democratic strategist who I spoke to over the weekend and looked at their polling numbers, they still think they're on track to win. seven to twelve seats, something like that. They still think Democrats take back control of the House. Um So that even with what happened in Virginia, they still are looking at it. But it's tighter. I mean it's it makes it tighter for them. And of course their argument. is well, them Republicans don't think they can win, so they rig the map. to make it almost impossible for Democrats to win, but that's a hard argument for Democrats to make because they were the ones doing the gerrymandering in Virginia. So I'm not sure they can quite take the moral high ground on this one. What they also say is when Trump started this with Texas, you've heard that. Yeah. But also The times in which they have done this in both California and Virginia, it has been done through voters. And so for them, it is trying to fight fire with fire. And we went to the people. And we went to the people. And that that is really important for them. I think what they should be more focused on, and frankly, if you talk to black electeds, this is where their head is it's less on, oh my God, the redistricting of Virginia. It's the Supreme Court putting the death knell into the Voting Rights Act a couple of weeks ago. And basically wiping out black representation in southern states. It's over. Yes. And like literally Louisiana who was having people actually already sending in their absentee ballots in their primary. Stops the primary. The governor stops the primary so that they can redistrict. And so like that's where the real power and control and fear should be for Democrats is that the VRA no longer exists and that the South, even the little bit of power they had in the South may no longer exist in a few years. The funny Democrats are always panicking. No matter what happens. When you talk to Republicans, they panic so much less. Is it James Carville who calls them bedwetters? Yes, a lot of people now, but like they're always so nervous. Every time something happens, oh my God, the world is burning. Like we have to flip the table. Oh my God, what are we gonna do? And then a few days passes and then they What I've heard from the leadership of the Democratic Party, whether it's at the DNC, the D trip in Congress, the Grand Pooh Bas and of the Democratic Party, is like just stay focused. Right? Like their job is to focus on the issues. The fundamentals haven't changed. Yeah. For our for our listeners in England, don't worry about DNC or D trip. It's this is just the big poo bars. The Grand Poo bars is actually what you need to focus on. Grand Pooh bars. Exactly. That's what Eugene is talking about. That's where the power is. And the money. At the end of the day, the fundamentals on the economy are the same. It's so much could change between now and then. We thought healthcare was gonna be everything. Now it's probably gonna be gas prices because anything else could happen between now and November. But at the end of the day, the fundamentals for Democrats and Republicans have not changed. Voters are looking at how much money is leaving their wallet. It is way too much for them to sustain. Their credit card bills are much higher. They're not able to pay them. People are deciding and saying to our MS Now colleagues on air. that like at the gas station, I have to decide between eating or putting gas in my tank. Those things are not gonna be changed or fixed by redrawing of the maps. So either. Republicans are going to have to, I don't know what they could do to convince people they really care about affordability in the economy. But if they don't change that. then Democrats still have the advantage. I also think that kinda one of the things that's been frustrating over the last few years with covering DC. Is that people keep talking about waves. There's gonna be a red wave, we're gonna have a blue wave. I love it when it gets like it. We're gonna have a red tsunami, but then we're gonna have a blue wave followed by a red trickle. Exactly. Exactly. Like let it go, guys. You're not meteorologists. And at the end of the day, I think that like we are probably always going to have a tight situation in the house, right? It's because the voters, again, are trying new things. Voters don't believe these folks. They're pissed all the time. Democrats and Republicans. And so like the idea that Democrats are gonna have 40 seats, I could be wrong, right? I'm willing to say I could be wrong, but that it just seems impossible to believe. It's not the age we live in. It's not how we live. It's not how politics works. It's not like it it just isn't it. And I think Democrats, I've talked to a lot of Democrats who are like, they also have to be careful. Because you have some Democrats out there saying you elect us, we're gonna fix the economy. They won't be able to. They cannot do that. And so that is not a message that is going to work because you can't make promises that you're not able to keep. Voters will will punish you for that. I agree with you. And I've heard actually Democrats from some of the southern states like Alabama. Who are kind of rolling their eyes every time they hear it's like a drinking game. Every time you hear a Democrat talk about affordability, it's you roll your eyes because you know they're not gonna make it better either. You've given them a chance and they didn't make it better either. So you can't just say affordability and we're gonna fix affordability. You have to have actual proposals and plans. Where is the plan? That are viable and that can make it through Congress. And to Trump's desk. And to Trump's desk. Exactly. Which is just never gonna happen. Trump is never gonna sign anything that comes out of a democratic congress in the next two years. And the Senate will probably not pass it. And the Senate ignores the House anyway. So I've been talking to a lot of folks and what they say is Democrats should focus Not on, you know, the redistricting wars. They should focus on creating a project 2027. What are you actually going to do that you can get done? What does accountability look like, right? If you have the gavels, what does that actually look like? What are the kinds of bills you're gonna put forward and force? publicans to say no to. Those are the kinds of things that they should be talking about and focused on. And frankly, Hakeem Jeffries has said in the past they were going to release some kind of plan. And you know, what are we going to do? And he has not. Yeah, no one's seen it. Neither have the members of Congress. Look, the Trump people are smart. They've spent four years out of power drawing up a plan, a very detailed plan, project twenty twenty five. Um, we all read it, uh, we didn't think it was all true, but they came in. They may not hold it because a lot of the stuff they've tried to do in that has been overturned because it wasn't actually legal or constitutional, but they came in with a very detailed plan. Democrats probably need to be spending these years out of office rather than complaining about redistricting or rather than just complaining about Trump and coming up with a really good plan of their own. So they have white papers or the equivalent of white papers on AI. They have white papers on what that's gonna do to your jobs, on retraining. on what you would do about gas taxes even in normal times. I just think they need to sound like they're a lot more Solid. on their policy ground. And they need to be more creative. And more creative. They have to be more creative. At the moment they're relying on abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson. Exactly. I think that's that's their policy paper. I don't know that that's gonna work for them. Yeah. It's a terrible idea. Thing about Republicans that if you are someone who is a student of history and a student of politics, is that as impressive? Is that They just try stuff, right? Like project twenty twenty-five is full of a bunch of stuff that lawyers will tell you. That is never going to be allowed. And yet They are trying it anyway, the Trump administration, because they're saying force them to say no. Right? Like force force the courts to knock it down. Like that is something that Democrats had such a frustration with Joe Biden about when they were saying get rid of all of our student loans. He was saying, Well, the courts won't let me and and they'd like we don't want to hear that shit. Sorry for the cousins. We won't tell your mom. It's okay. But like they didn't want to hear that. They wanted to hear someone who was going to try anyway. Who's a fighter. And who's a fighter and who was gonna be creative and who's gonna Even if the courts have to say no, right? You did it. The idea is checks and balances after you do the action. You can't have the check before you do it. You're watching some of the younger Democrats like Suha Subimanium. There's this call over the weekend of Democrats. And they were all talking about like, what are you gonna do? And, you know, there's a bunch of Democrats on the call and basically Suha Suha Subramanium is someone he said this publicly is like, we should just try everything. Why are we tying our hands behind our back for this kind of idea of respecting the rule of law? You respect the rule of law after the law has been struck down by a court. You don't do it beforehand. And I think that's something that a lot of Democrats have not fully grasped. And that is why voters still continue to not like them either. Like both parties are in dire straits, polling wise. It's so smart. I think that's exactly right that that is what democratic voters are are looking for. And what I'm hearing from Democrats in Washington, and they had been so almost like giddy, they were almost measuring up the drapes for the all the congressional offices they were about to take over, and then they went through this period of depression on Friday. And now they're saying, Well, you know what, actually this is gonna mean that Trump loses African American voters because they are going to be so pissed off that he got twenty one percent of them in twenty twenty four, but we think we're gonna get those African American and and brown men back into the democratic fold, and it's going to fire up Democrats even more. And they're talking sort of rather than talking big idea. And I get it, you've got to count your numbers and you've got to count your districts, but Democrats are sort of a little bit, you know, all over the place. One moment they're super positive and super we've got this. And the next moment they're back to being, you know, super depressed. And then they try and rally again and find themselves being positive again. Catty, even what you just said with with with them saying the black and brown men are gonna come back because that they're mad at Donald Trump. I think that just completely misses the mark on how voters' brains work. I agree. Just because I'm mad at them doesn't mean I'm gonna come date you. You have to force me to want to come back. You lost me. To give me something. Yes. We're exes, right? The Democratic Party and some of these black and brown voters, they have broken up. Democrats have to stand outside their house with the boom box and a trench coat in the rain, playing some music about what plans are gonna do. They have to do that. And they're not doing it. And I think that is the thing when you talk to to voters is that their frustration is is being taken for granted. you hear from strategists on the democratic side, sometimes Republicans say this too, that well, they'll come back, they'll realize how bad it is, they'll realize the danger to democracy. Voters have so much going on. The idea that they're just gonna come to all of these things, you're gonna let them just walk to these ideas themselves is silly. And it's it's political suicide. It is your job. as someone who works in politics to convince these folks to come and vote for you. They're not just gonna vote for you because they want to, because they're mad at Donald Trump. You have to force them to do so. You have to convince them of, you have to give them a plan. Where's the black and brown plan? If you care so much about black men, where are the issues that more than anyone in this country that you're going to work on. I haven't seen the canny of you. No, and this is something that Hispanic voters complain about every election. Democrats turn up A month before polling day and say, Please vote for Democrats, but where are they the rest of the time? And where are the plans that particularly focus on the concerns of that community, which by the way, the Hispanic community in California is different from the H Hispanic community in Florida, which is different from the Hispanic community in Texas. And I'm sure that's true of black voters too. Black voters in Florida and California and Indiana. and New York all have different priorities. They have the priorities of their communities. And I think that's something that Democrats miss a trick on. But the through line is the economy. Yeah, through line is the economy. Economy and security. I would say two things, economy and security. Yes, yes, feeling safe, right? Being able to live the life that you envision for yourself and your family, being able to pay for gas, pay for food, make sure your kids can go to a some kind of school. So maybe buy them some new clothes, go on a family trip once a year. The American people are not asking for that much. They're not asking for the sun, the moon, and the stars. They are asking that they are given the ability to reach their quote unquote American dream, the promises of this country. Democrats and Republicans are missing that. You know, Republicans always say voters want handouts. They don't. They actually just want people to get out of their way, assist them in the ways in which they can make it easier for them to be able to operate in the world. Black men especially. There's such a historical aspect to this, which is like black men want to be able to be the head of their household. And that means taking care of the wife and their kids or their partner and their kids. They want to be able to work. They want to be able to afford things. They want to be able to enjoy their lives. They want to be able to maybe retire at some point in their lives and enjoy the their twilight years. And if folks are not allowing them, helping them to do that, because there is in their eyes of a point of government needing to do some of that and assisting them in that adventure. But if you're not gonna do it, you're just standing in the way, you are not gonna get them to vote for you. I think also, Eugene, you're tapping into something which is there has been a tendency among some Democrats paint that desire to be able to look after your family in the way that your father did and your grandfather as somehow misogynist. And I don't think it's misogynist. I think it's just what People They want to be able to take care of their family and their community and their kids. And to say, well, they need to get with the program and realize that, you know, women are earning more money and, you know, women have got the jobs in healthcare. I get that. I realise that. And I hope that women are supported in those things, but you denigrate the men who feel they have lost something at your peril. You can do both. You can both so like the idea that we as a country should be moving in the direction of more equity and equality when it comes to women making more money in the same jobs and doing the same things as as men. And also not say to men, You're terrible for wanting to make more money. Like that's like you can, you have to figure out how to do both. And at the same time, black women have been hit the hardest in many places in this economy. So many jobs lost. Thousands and tens of thousands of black women have lost jobs over the last year and a half. And so Democrats who say like we're so focused on this. They're not. They have some kind of influence and power. They're not talking. Many of them are not talking about it. There are black women like Lauren Underwood and Iana Presley that are talking about these kinds of things in Congress, but by and large, they're not. And so you're not focusing, some of them not focusing on the issues that have impact black men. They're not focusing on the issues that have hit black women the hardest, even while black women have been the backbone of the Democratic Party. Ninety six percent voted for Democrats in the last two elections. Black women highest vote against Donald Trump that there was. And they do not feel treated in that way. And so when you talk to black women voters, I don't think they're going to vote for Donald Trump, but I think they're like, you know what, we're not, we're sticking out. Y'all, y'all figure it out. Since you don't want to do anything that helps me, I'm good. That's dangerous for Democrats. It's very dangerous for Democrats. Eugene Daniels. Thank you so much. So fun having it. We even snuck in the American Dream. When you get the American Dream at the end of the program, you know you're doing well. That' how how you know you have an American on. That's how you know. Message. Yeah, we find it. We still find hope. in all the trouble. It was great to have you. Thank you so much and all of you, thank you so much for listening. And Eugene is gonna join us for our question and answer for our founding members. We're gonna talk about again Pete Hegseth and Senator Kelly and the spat that they are in. If you'd like to become a founding member and hear more of Eugene answering your questions. you can go to the rest ispoliticsus.com. Thanks guys, we'll see you later this week.