The Urgency of the Climate Crisis

Two wars first in Ukraine and now in Iran have delivered two monumental oil and gas shocks to the global economy. But they've also made the politics of energy impossible to ignore from the cost of living to national security. Meanwhile, US President Donald Trump is still on his drill baby drill mission. The climate debate has regressed into yet another culture war battleground between left and right, and here we are in the middle of another sweltering, record breaking he If that wasn't enough, we now need more energy than ever to fuel the enormous data centers which the AI masters of the universe insist that we need. So no surprise that my recent debates with Rory on Net Zero and the climate crisis have generated a lot of interest and many, many questions. How close are we to a lights out scenario willill we ever actually reach zero, is an all sea drilling a matter of national security or an environmentally reckless fantasy. To answer all those questions and more, we're delighted to be joined by a real expert, European Commissioner for Energy and All things Climate, Dan Jurgenson for this special edition The rest is politics, question time This episode is powered by Fuse Energy. Right now, Fuse Energy's tariffs are up to two hundred pounds below the off gem price cap. pllus, they've just launched a new referral offer bring your bill down even further. What I love is the simplicity of it. If you refer a friend, one of those few people who haven't heard about fuse from us every week, and they switch both their gas and electricity, you each get fifty pounds towards your next bill. So it starts with one conversation, no prize drawers, no chance, no complicated reward scheme power of one smart recommendation that rewards you both. And remember, energy prices are more volatile than ever, but don't wait for rates to spike again. Switch to fuse in just three minutes and move to cheaper energy designed to help you and your friends cut bills. So don't just listen to another price cap story, switch to fuse, save up to two hundred pounds and get trip plus free with code politics at fuseennergy dot com slash politics Welcome to the Restless Politics Question Time with me, Roy Stewart, and me Anista Campbell. Let's start by D firstly just explaining to people briefly how we met, which is we were at a summit in Helsinki. And it seemed to me and this is where a lot of the questions are going to go that we're dealing with four different things. We're dealing with decarbonization, climate We're dealing with energy security and independence We're dealing with affordability and bills and we're dealing with industrial strategy. And I guess the big question that keeps coming through again and again is when do all those four things overlap neatly and when are there some tensions between them? But let's start with a question from Chris, which comes straight out of Iran and the Strait of Hormuz How close are we to lights out due to the Iran war and the continued closure of the Strait of Hormuz? Yeah, so thank you for that. There's no doubt that we are in an energy crisis right now because of the situation in the Middle East But this is more of a price crisis And really it's more of a fossile energy crisis than an energy crisis in general. However If this continues, now hopefully there's a peace and hopefully this stit will open again and hopefully things will normalize, that will take some time. Maybe we can get back to that. But hopefully we are on that route. But if it doesn't If the war breaks out again, then this can transfer into a crisis of security of supply And then of course, we are in a much more serious situation We know that the commercial stocks on jet fuel will be depleted approximately at the end of this summer Then of course, countries have their reserves. their stocks that can then be released But since we only refine around seventy percent of our own jet fuel in Europe, we can indeed be in a situation where we have a deficit and where it will affect our aviation sector. Now next could be diesel. And if that happens, of course, then the economic consequences will be quite severe. And of course, this is nothing compared to how many of our friends in Asia and elsewhere in the world are affected As we speak. So for us, this is something that might happen for them. It's something that's the reality every day right now. And then I haven't even spoken about the effects on fertilizer and many other products that are now in a deficit in the world. So it is quite serious and we're not out of the woods yet But of course, if there's a peiece then the situation is more manageable than it would have been. Question from Gemma, which relates to how do we become so dependent on Russian oil? If you put those two things together The two big energy shocks, what did we do wrong that we ended up being so dependent in parts of Europe's case, Russia for gas and then the Straits of Ormus And this weapon now that the Iranians have got and they now know they've got it. Yeah, so maybe let's start with Russia. We were indeed extremely dependent on Russian energy. I served as minister for cllimate Energy and public Uutilities in Denmark in february twenty two Putin made his full scale invasion in Ukraine. And I remember how we spent the first weeks making emergency plans for what we would do if indeed Putin decided to turn off the taps for us And we would have had to force companies to close down, send people in uniform if they didn't to make sure that we had enough gas to our hospitals and so forth. And this was in Denmark and we were not even half as exposed as a country like Germany, for instance. So imagine if Putin had turned off the gas to Germany, the entire Europe would have been in an economic recession So that showed us just how vulnerable we were. And therefore, we decided, of course, to get out of this dependency as fast as possible. It wasn't only gas, by the way, we got fifty percent of our coal from Russia, that's down to zero now. We got twenty seven percent of our oil, that's down to three percent now and we got forty five percent of our gas and that is down to around ten percent now and we've decided that it needs to go down to zero. So thereever we've actually banned import of gas from from Russia. It was a big wake up call for all of us and it led to us reducing our use of gas in Europe. So we use around twenty percent less now than we did in twenty two. huge progress and we've diversified our suppliers so that we're not as vulnerable anymore. But that then leads us to the second crisis, which is, yes, now we're not dependent on one supplier as we were But we're still dependent of what happens geopolitically in the world And because the world market prices has gone up as they have, we also are now hit by a price shock. It's not as big as it was in twenty two, even though the crisis in many ways are worse because we're better prepared But it's still very serious and for me, the conclusion is very clear. We need to get out of this dependency. One dependency you talked about was of course, gas. And then before that, you were talking about jet fuel and diesel. Why were we not expecting a crisis on jet fuel and diesel And maybe also explain to listeners who don't follow this all the time Why does the renewable Revolution not actually deal with the problem of jet fuel and diesel with current technology? Let's start with why did we not notice H okay, I don't want to sound provocative, but didn't we know this? I think we did. I mean it's no It's no surprise that we import a very large share of our energy in Europe still last year We imported for more than three hundred seventy billion euros worth of fossils. So this is why we are on a mission to transition away from this as fast as possible. Now the transport sector and that can then lead me to answering your second question, is of course one of the sectors where this is more difficult Why? Because in the aviation sector, for instance, we haven't really yet got the alternatives to jet fuels. Those alternatives will arise, but we haven't got them yet and they will be expensive, especially in the start withith regards to vehicles, the cars that we drive in the streets, that is actually going pretty fast in the right direction. And a crisis like the one we're in now is also leading to an increase in the buying of electric vehicles. E in a country like Germany, the combustion engine leading country in the world. They're now buying more electric vehicles than combustion engine cars. The conference was already mentioned in Helsinki. There was a presentation there Norway is now one hundred percent. Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah. the oil country in Norway. Same in my own country, Denmark, we also sell now more EVs than cast that drive on diesel or gasoline. But of course these are all political choices because really what sets the price of c that you buy in many many countries are also very much determined by the tax levels. So in Denmark, for instance, we had the opportunity of lowering the taxes on on EVyss. and that of course then sparked this change. And in Norway, if we have to be honest This is also a very rich country with some opportunities that most Th of countries do not have with regards to subsidizing. But nonetheless, it shows that it can be done. And what we're seeing now is that prices are going down for EVs And the market is also being driven by the fact that for consumers, when we're in a crisis like this, you really see how much cheaper it is. Not only is it more comfortable to drive an EVi, it's like when you change from a normal cars to an EV, it's like changing from a old fashioned typewriter to a computer. But it's also much, much cheaper. to drive it And that is going fast in the right direction. But of course it will take some years, even decades. Let's just focus on that final one, which is that we have a problem in the short term. And we particularly have a problem with things like trucks planes. So one of the challenges is, you may be right in ten, fifteen years time that there's some revolution where we're not dependent on jet fuel and diesel. But if we lost our jet fuel and diesel today, we would be in real trouble Sure, And the solution to the problem this year, next year and the year after has to be securing our jet fuel and diesel supply because you don't have a technological solution to how to fly aeropplanes or drive trucks at the moment without it. Yeah, so that is true. So we need to make sure that the refinery capacity that we have, which we need for the jet fuel is adequate and that the stocks that we have in reserves are adequate. This goes, by the way, also for more widely used commodities like natural gas So in the European Union, we legislate on this And we try and coordinate as best we can This means knowing exactly who has, how much What are the inflows and outflows of the union Gas we have legislation on how much to store and when to store it and we coordinate when member states buy it so that they get it as cheap as possible. All of these things we're trying to work on to make the negative consequences as soft as possible But I do need to underline that We cannot lose focus of our main objective And that is to get rid of the black molecules and have some green electrons instead. So electrification, more renewables as fast as possible, but also energy efficiency. you being from Britain know this very well that there's huge potential both in buildings and in industry in electrifying and becoming more energy efficient. And that's of course the cheapest source energy. That's the energy that you don't use. Let me just give this question from Francesca Milo Vilis. If Europe were to achieve net zero emissions today, but China, the US and Russia did not substantially change course, would the impact on the global climate be significant enough to justify the economic and political costs ped by European citizens? If so, why, if not, what should the alternative strategy be? Okay, so two main points there First of all be wrong to talk about the green transition as a transition that is expensive for us country This will make energy cheaper for us We have paid fifty billion more for our energy without receiving one extra molecule since the crisis started in the Middle East. That is unsustainable also economically. Looking at what is the price of energy The cheapest energy to produce today is solar, then it's onshore wind, offshore wind, and then it's gas and coal and nuclear So For us, this transition is also one that we do for economic reasons. But of course, climate change, for me, that's one of the reasons why I went into politics and for me, it's still the biggest crisis that we face and contrary to the other crisis that we in, which will hopefully will disappear and we will solve these problems Climate change, I'm afraid will be here for the rest of our lives and it's going to be much more serious than it is now. So we do need to fight it and we do need to take leadership I think it's important to realize is that it's not us doing it alone China is actually the country on the planet that's deploying the most renewable energy right now. India is also moving in that direction. and even in the US, where of course we have a government that does not agree with my point of views, a state like Texas They are raising record numbers of wind turbines every year. So this is done to fight climate change for some of us, yes, but for others, it's simply done because it's healthy economics. We were at a conference in the great line at the moment is green energy is cheap energy. Sure. But this is quite a dangerous line politically because it raises the question what happens when green energy is not cheap energy and which is more important? And you're trying to say you don't need to make that choice. but actually often we do need to make the choice because the costs of distribution are very high cost often of having backup. So in the United Kingom we don't have hydro So we need gas powered stations when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing How do we confront the question of why are industrial energy prices lower in the United States than they are in Europe and in the United Kingdom, if it's true that green energy is cheap energy. Even if we wanted to follow the American example which I would warn against because we still need to fight climate change, But even if we wanted that, it wouldn't actually be a possibility for us because we do not have those resources. We don't have that much gas, we don't have that much oil. I do really need to be quite clear on this matter about prices If you look at what constitutes an energy bill It's three things It's the price of the energy It's the taxes and the levies and it's the transmission costs Now the only thing that is physics and just basically the market working is the price of the energy. The rest is politics, if you will excuse the pun. So the levies and taxes, well, that's up to the governments And one of the things that we are recommending member States of the European Union is, why don't you lower the tax on electricity? In many memember States, and I believe this is also the case in the UK If I'm not mistaken, the taxation is actually the opposite. So there's less tax on gas than there is on electricity. Some member states of the European Union, that's four times more tax on electricity than on gas And that's a political choice And if you chose instead to make it much, much cheaper to use electricity, you would alleviate some of the burdens on your industry, you would make it easier for your citizens to pay your bills and you would also help the transition that we need long term, which is to get these black molecules out and the green electrons in. Donald Trump keeps going on about, you know, why don't the Labour goovernment drill, baby drill in the North Sea Tom Wood, why can't we do both drill oil and invest in green Allegra, is there a way for concern for UK security and for the climate not to be mutually exclusive? The North Sea is going to be key for energy in Europe in the future, but not because of oil and gas, because of wind We have huge untapp resources. in the North Sea that will help generate electricity for all of Europe on the gas and oil questions. So Denmark, the country that I come from We have actually, to some degree since the nineteen seventies financed our welfareestate by selling oil and gas that we got from the North Sea. But we decided when I was minister to put an end date to production of oil and gas in the North Sea and to stop all future licensing rrounds N not an easy decision because we were actually the biggest oil producer in the EU when we made that decision. Why did we do it Well, the primary reason was climate change. We did believe that some countries needed to take the first steps and show that you can be a competitive society without this But actually also when we looked into the economics of it, it turned out that it was also just a good business decision because the investments that are needed to explore and extract more oil and gas compared to how small the reserves actually are compared to how much the prices are going down on renewables really just shows you that this, even if there was no such thing as climate change, even if there was no such thing as security, which are indeed two very important reasons. for why we need to get out of this dependency. But even if there wasn't then it would just make sense to go go the other way and have a more clean, homegrown energy base. Following up from that, the Norwegian Prime Minister, Jones Gastorea, who we've also interviewed, is now saying We're in a crazy situation because he's saying that Norway is not able to extract its own fuels and we are making Europe dependent on either. the Middle East or Russia or the United States, where Norway would be able to access its own and provide indndependent security for Europe So he's pushing back against you. What's your answer to that? First of all, I don't think it's healthy for us to be dependent on any one supplier. Now Norway is of course, not to be compared to Russia or even to the U.S But nonetheless, yes, Norway is our friend. Yes They are. supplying us with gas. but they're not supplying us with cheap gas They make a lot of money on selling this to us, which is fan off, that is the market But for us, it's not an economically sustainable situation to be in And also again Why When we have the alternatives Why not exploit the alternatives that are right there right in front of us There's so many low hang fruits that we can pick. And by the way, we are actually doing it. It's not going fast enough if you ask me, but in Europe, we deployed the year before last seventy eight gigawatts of new renewables last year close to nine gigawatts and one gigawatt is enough to supply one million homes with electricity. We produce now more solar and wind electricity than fossil. So we are doing this and we see a very clear connection in Europe on How much renewables have you got in your system and how cheap is the energy? There's two factors that decide how cheap the energy is in Europe or expensive. And one is how much renewables have you got? and two is how connected are you to your neighboring countries? Because of course This is an energy system that builds on you being connected and flexible. So you can do some with storage, but you do need to have the opportunity of getting some beload from other countries if the wind doesn't blow and the sun is not shining. Of course, on the other hand, you will probably produce more than you need when the wind is actually blowing and then you need to get rid of that by selling it to your neighbourors So that is the core of our strategy, more renewables and better interconnectedvenness. Is it possible that the United States and Trump is knowningly and willfully damaging the European energy market. America, you say, doesn't need to worry quite as much as we do about the consequences of what's happened in the Strait of Has.'ve they're a massive exporter now. They're making a lot of money out of energy. So the geopolitics of this seems to me are quite Yeah, well I tr. I'm not going to be speculating on the motives of the American president, but There are some facts and one of those facts is that this year was seen to be a year where we would have a surplus of oil production in the world. Now because of events, that is not the case. now we have a deficit. and therefore the pricesone have gone up It's also clear, of course, that in the American government there is a council called the American Energy Dominance Council So we don't have to speculate on what their mission is. The mission is to dominate the world in energy. And with energy, I mean fossil energy. That's obviously an issue where we disagree because we think that that's the wrong way to go. Certainly for us, I mean, even again, if there was no such thing as climate change, which of course, I think is the most important issue that we're dealing with, but even if there wasn't, still for us It's much more wise not become a petro state like the US, but an electro state like China is getting close to being now. And again, if you look even in the US at what is actually going on in many of the individual states, many of them are actually continuing to deploy more renewables because it's fast and it's cheap. and we need to also look at the fact that, yes, One of the reasons why the bill can sometimes be a little bit higher than what or sometimes much higher than we would want is transmission costs. and they are related to us having to expand our grids. And you can then say, well, why don't we just induuse the existing facile infastructure? Well That will not be enough either. So there's no way around us. if we want to use more energy, which we need to because we will have data centers and we will become richer and our economies will grow. And even if we deploy more energy efficiency, still we will need more energy. So the question is not really do we need to invest, We need to invest. The question is what do you want to invest in you want to invest in what is cheapest? Yes, big companies, even in the US do this even in Texas. Or do we want to for political reasons, say no, we think a fossile way of doing this is better. We have a lot of questions about the whole Net zero debate My sense is it's being pushed backwards, whether that's down to Trump, whether it's down to populism, whether it is down to Iran and Ukraine, we can dispute that. But Daniel, will we ever reach an at zero? And here's a very interesting question about the way people behave. Henry, to what extent is it possible to motivate behavioural change among a disengaged public? I do feel sometimes that this debate is been weaponised, it's become part of the kind of polarisation of left right politics That, it seems to me, is adding to the challenges that you' fac in trying to persuade people that you're on the right track. Yeah, so normally actually I would answer that question by but giving you yet another long speech of why this is cheaper and why it's health the economy and why it's necessary for our security But I think I would actually use the opportunity to speak about climate change instead, because today is going to be one of the hardottest days probably ever recorded here in the UK. When I was nineteen years old, I carried suitcases for a here in a hotel in London. At that time the only reason we knew it was summer was because the rain was a little bit warmer And And we used to joke that if the color of our skin that wasn't that tan, that was rust But now you have heat waves every year and we have them all over Europe and people are dying. And we had the continent heating the fastest. Climate change is extremely serious and it's hereir right now And it can spin out of control and it's hitting the vulnerable parts of the world even harder, of course. So if you also if you're interested in security, like I know you are, Rory. Really climate change. That's the biggest tr ml multiplier we have on this planet, and it will lead to wars and insecurity and immigration. We need to continue to speak about this issue and we need to use it to also mobilize the will in our populations to do more Now then we can take that back to the main arguments of what it is that we need to do. And then can we can turn it back into a positive argument because It really is very fortunate for us that what we need to do to save the planet is the same things we need to do to lower prices and to become more more independent. So why does it feel that the argument is being pushed back Is it just politics? And big how big a factor has Trump been with Dll baby Dll and his genius for slogans like I I don't think, to be honest, I don't think many Europeans look to Trump and say he He is our leader and we want to follow him as well. So in that sense he has of course affected the world economy and the fact that they produce now more liqueified gas LNG and sell it to us and we need it, off course, in that sense, he's indirectly affected our energy policy in Europe, but But I will actually say that One of the effects probably of the US stepping back on the green transition be that some of the money that were intended to be invested there many of the big institutional investors and companies that were investing in green transition in the US, although a lot of it is still continuing will go to Europe. So it indirectly can help us also attracting the investments that we want. But to the question, what has happened? Why is it not as high on the agenda as it used to be? reallyally, I struggle to find the explanation Th things fluctuate in twenty nineteen. We had an election in Denmark where for the first time ever, climate change was the most important topic on the agenda Now we just had an election and it was on the agenda, but certainly not the most important. And it's not as if we've solved climate change in those years. So why it is it's difficult to say. Okay, let's take a quick break and then back for more This episode is brought to you by Vauxhall. Electric cars have become part of life on the road and Vauxhall is supporting the UK's transition to electrification. Well, how are they doing that? Well, to start, their Electric Streets of Britain initiative aims to support local authorities in accelerating the UK's on street charging infrastructure. And it's exactly what you want to see from Vauxall, which is of course a British brand, a proud partner of Team GB Vauxhall's also supporting the next generation of athletes on their journey to the twenty twenty eight Olympics. And there's more. The new Vauxhall Grandland Griffin, a large family SUV, features a premium specification at an affordable price whether you're choose an elake Mild hybrid version. Even better, goingo Electric can get you an additional fifteen hundred pound discount thanks to the electric car grant Any questions you have about electric cars are probably answered by the Vauxhall Grandland. Search Vauxall Groundland or visit your local Vauxhall retailer todayod, Electric grant Tas and Ces apply visit vauxhall. co. uk Forome more insight Hi, this is Garal Linica from Goldhangers The restest is foootball. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple WS is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than one hundred and sixty countries and with over forty currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. WSE uses the mid market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee, and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, T's and Ts apply Welcome back to the restest of Politics Quion Time with me Roy Stewart and me Alistter Campbell So Dan, following up from where you were, and I'd love you really to talk about the politics of this say, Matt How can we sell the long term abstract benefits of net zero? without alienating folk in terms of cost of living. And I just want to challenge you as a politician Whatever's being done at the moment is not working This story is not working. So What is it that needs to happen in the communication to reassure people like Matt. Well, first of all, I certainly don't neglect the worry that Matt has But I will challenge you a little bit, Rory because It's really not you say you pose a question by saying you as a politician Well, yes, you used to be a politician yourself also and you know very well that just because we haven't solved a problem one hundred percent is not the same as saying that what we're doing is not the right thing. So yes, we do pay too much for our energy in Europe. But fact of the matter is that had we not followed the route that we' on now, had we not deployed more renewables, we would pay far more. Let me give you two numbers. The IEA International Energy Agency, they have calculated that we save approximately thirty three billion euros a year in Europe on our electricity bills on newly deployed renewables. So that's what comes on top of what we already have every year. And AsSa The regulatory institution that we have in the European Union on energy that looks into energy prices, they say, well, probably more or less the same amount we save on being as internet connected as we are. So are we interconnected enough? No, we need much more connections, including with the UK. But if we were just twenty seven individual member States in the EU, we would pay betweenetween thirty and forty billion euros more than we do So lect that there's a far way to go. I don't neglect that the prices are too high. if we were to follow a different path and if we were to stop the green transition now that would be very, very irrational because what actually brings the prices down are indeed this transition. Dan, let me try again. Matt's question is how do we sell it So when I said you as a politician, I mean, how do you communicate this? What isn't the fact that we're having this conversation is happening partly because A loss of the European public is not convinced. So sure. mayaybe let's start from the question of why you think the European public is not convinced policy is delivering cheap energy. So first of all, I think probably we need to Acknowledge also that there's big differences between countries and I think the situation, I'm not an expert in British politics, but I think it's probably a little bit different here than in many European countries. I think if you go to Spain, I don't think you'll have a problem selling the point that renewables are cheaper because they see that with their own eyes. They were a country very, very hard hit in twenty two becausecause they were dependent on gas. Now they've really managed to transition away and primarily renewables now and that has lowered their bills significantly And if you go to Italy, you'll see the opposite. They are very, very dependent on fossilas and they pay very high prices. And if you go to the southeast of Europe you'll see many memember States that are actually deploying a lot of rewables but that are not gaining or harvesting the benefits because they're not enough connected to the rest of Europe So I don't really see that big of an opposition towards more renewables faster in Europe. What I do see is some opposition to some of the tools that we are using Because one of the reasons why this is happening is also because we are making it more expensive to use fosids. We have an ETS system, as you know which is basically a tax. It's not a tax, but it works like a tax on fossile emissions. And some parts of industry have argued that that is making it difficult for them to compete Now I will counter argue to that well, Listen, friends, there's no way around this. We're not neglecting your difficulties But if we do not move away from fossils, then you will be vulnerable Every year all of eternity for price shocks like the one we are experiencing right now. And if we look at even just the short term or medium turnurn, do does anybody think that we're looking into a more stable world the next five or ten years? Unfortunately not, I wish we were, but we probably are not So using all of the economic instruments, financial, political instruments that you can to really this transition is is what we need to do. Now in Europe, when you see, for instance, A very famous example is the yellow jersey demonstrations on the streets of Paris because of attacks on on on Foss of you That was an example, I don't think of people arguing against doing something to fight climate change This was because they didn't want their expenses to go up Or another example, the home country of Grither Thorberurg, Sweden In the last election, the young population voted primarily for right wing party, not because of immigration, as you might think, but because of this question of tax on fuels So I do acknowledge that even populations who want to fight climate change. if it hurts their own wallets then they will tend to maybe care more about the wallets than the climate, which that's just the way it is. So we need to take that into consideration and also use policies to alleviate that and make the incentives, right? That's also why earlier when I tried to explain what is it that constitutes an electricity bill or an energy bill, really it's up to politicians and that could may be where we agree, Rory, although we also disagree on issues, maybe we can agree that U politicians meant this decision makers like myself, but So I'm also responsible. But if we really meant this and took it very, very, very serious and it was the most serious thing for us to deal with. thenen we could do stuff tomorrow because we could lower taxes on electricity. We could invest even more in our grids. we could invest even more in the renewables. we could invest even more and subsidize even more if we wanted to energy efficiency measures We've got tons of questions about solar And a lot of our listeners and viewers seem to think that we're missing a lot of tricks here. Zoe Fletcher, could more commercial buildings like office blocks, etceter. have solar panels on top of them Felix? Why isn't rooftop solar being subsidized more considering it reduces grid constraint, etc. Andrew. sureurely if we put solar panels on top of buses and trains and buildings, we would reduce the need for So what more could we do on solar and why aren't we doing it? Solar is really expanding fast. And if we look at globally how much is being invested in solar and wind, actually it's twice as much as being invested in fossil. So that's also an argument in itself for why this is good business And by the way, most of what's being invested in fosid is being invested in maintenance of existing infrastructure. So the investments are really moving towards where's the best business case in that solar and wind. so that helps us a lot. What can then be done politically? Well, one of the big problems right now and to be honest, the biggest bottleneck that I see and danger that I see is that we do not expand our grids fast enough. becausecause it doesn't matter if we do as I want deploy more renewables if those renewables cannot come online And we have some very terrible examples of what this might lead to in Europe. So again, if I can if you'll allow me an anecdote, fromrom when I was minister in Denmark, I had to sometimes persuade Danish tax payers that it was a good idea for us to use our money subsidizing wind turbines. And then when the wind was really blowing and we were producing too much energy, sometimes the German taxpayers' money would be spent to pay us to stop the wind turbines because their grid was not able to Take it in So that's what we call curtailment So this is why one of the main objectives on my list of things to do and my job is to make sure that we expand our grids and connect our countries better in Europe to get out of this problem Now that's also a problem sometimes for solar, but solar has the advantage very often that it's also very local production,'s decentralized production. So I do think that solar is going to be one of the main components of our energy systems in the future. St countries do it differently? U subsidies? yes, for sure. I'm all for that. subsidies is not a It's not a great thing to have as a long standing measure, but To get something up in scale and down in price, it can work Now many countries will see now that actually solar does not need these subsidies because it's so cheap So it's more about making sure that you have the grid expansion and Very very important point. I know you struggle with this in the UK also perermitting times It takes way too long to get a permit to build a new solar park or to build new grids. Question from James, whyy doesn't the government have a bigger focus on tidal power It's so reliable So it's probably not up to me so hands on behalf of the government in the UK, but do I do like Prime Minister tomorrow So so tidal and wave energy, it has a huge potential, but it's still minute compared to our other energy sources. But I do actually think that this is one of the technologies that will grow rapidly in the years to come We will need different types of policy instruments like the ones we used when wind technology was new. By the way, offshore wind that now competes even with coal and gas in price. Denmark built the first offshore wind park back in nineteen ninety one and then people were just shaking their heads at how naive idealists we were spending money on something as stupid as that because surely it's way too expensive to produce energy that way. Now It's used all over the world. It competes, you know, you have it in the UK, also as a part of your strategy. And I think that I hope that using the same policy instruments, so yes, subsidies, but also smarter solutions like contract for difference models where you share the insecurity and the risk and the investments between the producers and the state. That's one of the ways to make sure that these new technologies will grow. A lot of questions about data centers and AI. Nicola Laporte, why are we allowing data centers to be built Flossy Macbeth, great name Do you think AI and environmental policy can ever be compatible? Yes, I do think so, but I will also say It's an imperative for us. We need it. I mean, we spoke about dependencies earlier related to energy, but we also have other dependencies. Information. Big tech companies are controlling more than governments today in the world This is a problem, I think. So we cannot only rely on American tech companies that are physically placed elsewhere in the world. We also need our own and of course Data centers is a part of that. I will also add to that that actually AI can be very, very helpful and digitalization also on a more simple level can be very helpful in us being more efficient in our energy systems. Actually, we can save a lot in the expansion of grids but justoos what we have more rationally and AI can help us there. Having said all of this, it is a huge challenge becausecause the energy consumption of these censors, right now, if I'm not mistaken, it's around two point five percent of our energy consumption in the EU. and that's set to double within the next five years.. So it's not a small thing. So what we're working on now in the European Union is to set the standards for energy efficiency to make sure that we also incentivize the data centers use, for instance, the excess heat. So is it a problem that a data center uses a lot of energy? Well, it can be if it's the wrong type of energy and if it's just used once, but if it's renewable energy and it's used first to cool down the data center and then the excess heat from that process is used to a warm up or cool down thousands of homes, which we've seen good examples on in many member States in the European Union, then in fact, these data centers becomes part of our energy system that's useful instead of the opposite At the risk of irritating Alist and L listens, I need to do a follow up on data centers rather than just jumping to the next listenens question. because This is a big isue. And its energy is at the heart of this issue. and ye When you talk to investors They're driven mad by trying to get data centers built. If you look at the problems in Germany, a lot of this is to do with distribution and transmission lines. And I'm very interested in why we don't talk more about transmission and distribution in energy. I mean very few of our listeners' questions are actually about that subject. So explain why that's such a big issue for data centers and for so much and what the cost of these distribution transmission lines is. so F first of all, I very much agree with you, Rory. I'm also so surprised and I'm also a little bit embarrassed because I've worked with this all my adult life twenty years and it's only the last five, maybe ten years that I've myself begun to see, okay, this is probably the biggest chance we have. If we actually succeed in doing what we want, which is to get more renewables and electrify more if we don't have the great capacity, if we don't have these connections, then it simply will not happen And right now, we are then hit by an extra challenge This would be a challenge. evenven if there was not a single data center in the EU, But we' now hit by the extra challenge that these data centers are coming at a speed and at a magnitude that nobody could have foreseen. So we couldn't have foreseen that, I will say. but But of course Now it's here. This is the future. what to do. Well We are negotiating right now and hopefully at the end of this week, the European Council of Ministers will adopt a general approach that hopefully supports a proposal that we in the Commission have put forward, that I put forward, which is to do a number of things. One is we need better planning So today it's like So it's twenty seven member states trying to be a union on energy. But in fact, it's like twenty seven different people making a jigsaw puzzle without looking at the picture on the box. because there is no collected plan. There is no European wide scenario So I'm asking for memember States to give the power to the European Commission to actually draw up a plan for Europe. What does the most rational plan look like? And where do we then need to invest? Because That will mean that we will need some of our collected funding from the EU to support For instance, as we've done right now, an energy island in Denmark, the island of Bornhm, which will be connecting Denmark and Germany. So actually there's some EU money in there, but actually it's Germany paying the majority, the lion's share of that investment. Imagine that we have one country paying for energy infrastructure in another country. Why? Because really it doesn't really make sense to look at borders here. We need to make sure that we utilize where our the actual resources and the resources are there in the island, around the waters around Bonholm, just as they are in the North Sea. So I see many of these projects in the future hopefully connecting us all better. So that's just one example. of what we need to do to answer that question, Rory that you posted. But there are of course, many others final question because youve got to go. Sam And I think this sort of speaks to the view of quite a lot of the people that wrote in Is any government actually taking the proven climate crisis seriously Fr yours from a deeply cynical twenty six year old I suppose that goes back to point made earlier. If the crisis is, as you say, do you really feel that we're embracing it with the urgency that it needs. And how much of that is down So I was to go into to my Trump derangement syndrome, how much of that is down to the fact there's a guy over there, the most powerful politician in the world, who is so far from your agenda So this is one of those questions that I can I can give two speeches I can give a very gloomy speech of why it's not very likely that we will stop climate change before the self enhancing effects sets in and then it'll be too late. You know, Anthony Gibs wrote a book where he coins a phrase. he calls it the Gidens's paradox. It must be great to be able to put a paradox off out there and name it after yourself. But anyway, it's pretty smarty. what he says is when This happens when temperature goes to the point of no return. there willll be nothing we will not be willing to do. But Then it'll be too late And if we look at what science is showing us every year, it is that's probably worse than we think And we're not going fast enough in reducing emissions. And now we even have, some will argue the most powerful nation on the planet going in the wrong direction So that's one speech. The other speech that I like more H' them a hopeful speech I like to say that Martin Luther King did not start a civil rights revolution by giving a speech called I Have a Nightmare. We do need to create hope. Good news is It's not naive actually. becausecause looking at the numbers, it can be done We are globally investing twice as much in renewables as we are in fOossAS. We are on track of reaching our reduction of emission targets in the EU's targets that were considered extremely ambitious when when we adopted them The economics of many of the underlying transitions that we need are really good and the business cases are there Bottom line to the question, are we taking it serious enough U I don't think so to be honest. I think it should be And I'm to blame also because I also speak more about crisices and security and all these things because it's so important and because it's right now and because it's the present crisis that we're in, but actually, We will get past those crisis. There will, I really firmly believe there will be a peace in Ukraine. I really firmly believe that we will get the prices down and therefore be able to compete better and Europe cllimate change. This is about fighting something that will not disappear and trying to stay below That number, that increase in temperature where the self enhancing effect sets in as a point of no return, which by the way, we don't know when that is. We might even have surpassed it now Yeah, okay, that's me trying to be positive and then I became negative anyway. I don't know I apologize about that thank you, Dan very much Thank you It was an honor. Normally, you know, I only listen to podcasts about birds But you are actually one of the few exceptions I like to listen to Bird. Yeah. Okay What's the best Well tell us what's the equivalent? What is the rest is birds? What's the best? You should make one called the restess birds. Do you know actually that I read somewhere recently that it's becoming trendy for young people also to watch? I love bird. Yeah, me as well. I'm not an expert. You're an expert And I wouldn't say that, but I do spend a lot of my spare time watching Gs your Twiter Now I wouldn't go that far L,'s love to see you. lovely to see you. It's an honored to be in this program. Thank you. Thank you Thank you, De Bye So Rory more or less convinced by Well you're convinced by the climate cris aren't? don't think's doubt about that. What you're not convinced about is the answer. I think it was wonderful to I'm a very generous him to come and for listeners Alistter and he got to the Gooldhanger offffice at seven o'clock in the morning on a pretty packed visit for the EU Commissioner. So I think it's a brilliant way of understanding how the European Union thinks and the commommissioner thinks. I'm afraid that if you were a European business person listening to that. let's say you were working in German industry, you would be tearing your hair out. And I think if you were somebody who was really focused on the big issues around climate, you would remind people that Brain is only one percent of direct emissions and the EU is only seven percent of direct emissions. So the question is what is the exam question that he's trying to answer? Is this the most efficient way to stop global climate change Is it Is this the best way of supporting European industry with cheap energy Is it Is this the best way of dealing with energy security and if so in the short term or the long term And I guess I'm still not sure that he's got the answer to those things. and I think where I slightly differ with you is you assume that the reason these arguments are struggling is because of a conspiracy by Trump and the far right. I think the reason that these arguments are struggling is that ordinary businesses, ordinary householders sense that a lot of this doesn't quite add up as neatly as people like Down are suggesting No, I think that's a very harsh judgment. mean and also just on somebody who's actually at the reason he's in London is because of climate Wek and somebody who's at it sent me a thing this morning actually on a survey of European business, which doesn't suggest that actually they're pleased with the the attempt to keep the focus on renewables and also they do see the business opportunities in it. This is a thing we'll put in the newsletle called the B businessiness Breakthrough Barometer. ninety two percent of business leaders seeing competitive advantage in the sort of approach that he's talking. I thought more interesting And also, it's not that I think there's a conspiracy theory. I think that just that politics and economics and energy. they they're not separate things So if you go back to when Al Gore was vice presresident of the United States and kind of leading the global charge on on re on climate change and renewables and the link between the two then that argument was being won The reason why I think that he Dan would accept, I think that he maybe faces a more hostile environment when he's talking about this in public is not just because of the cost of living, although that is a massive factor. It's also because the politics have shifted. And the reason why I'm so keen to make sure that the polities don't shift in the direction that they're going by accepting some of the arguments that are made against the Rneewwables agenda by people like Richard Tys and the reform people. It's this right V left polarization of a debate. And where I thought was most interesting in all of those exchanges actually was when he tried to take it back to the very core of this thing, which is the climate crisis itself. And you could see he was struggling not to terrify us because that down is I think where he thinks this debate is So I think we've got a real We've got a clash here of our understanding of how this debate should be conducted U So I thought it was interesting, but I think he accepts that we actually need to I think we need to get back ono the high ground again and not just be talking about you know, the price market mechanisms, all that stuff. Yeah, well, I think that's important. and I think that's probably the most important thing, which is that Getting stuck in green energy is cheap energy is probably a trap Because sometimes green energy isn't cheap energy. I'd be very convenient if it always was, but sometimes it isn't And you know we can get into the details of why it isn't. but a lot of that is distribution and transmission and also what you do when the wind isn't blowing or it's blowing too hard. So then the big question is global. It's not about Europe, it's not about Britain. It's about what mechanisms we put in place globally, not to deal with the one percent we emit or the seven percent Europe emits, but the other ninety three percent. And that's where I think we should be looking much more at taxing embedded carbon making sure that when we're buying t shirts from China, we are paying the correct price for the embedded carbon and setting up a global system for that. Now that's very ambitious It may sound pie in the sky It's the only way of tackling climate change There is literally no point ain and Europe being good and doing what they can to reduce emissions if China and the US and India continue to emit and the way that they are continuue to build more and more emissions So if we're really idealistic Let's not get caught up in what's happening in Europe and Britain. The real idealism has to be reaching out to global agreements Right, But then sorry to cope back to Donald Trump a global agreement if you go right back to the Kyoto process and then forward to Paris. and literally one of the first things he does is come and say, I'm not having international agreements. So that's why I think some of us do have to say idealisty do have to say that even though we're only one percent we still have a leadership role to play. And even if there is a price to pay, as long as Dan and others can persuade people that in the long term That is the way, that is the roote cheap energy So I think you're a bit sort of I was going to say nihilistic I don't mean nihilistic, but I think you're pessimistic and I think that feeds into onene of the reasons why this debate is not in the place that it needs to be. and then is exploited by these awful, fossil fuel industry, the oil and gas, the Coch Brothers Steve Bannon, Richard T Thys, etca, et cetera. I'm not pittting you their cab But this is why I was quite angry with Tony Blair and his thing recently. I mean Dan before we recorded it started record it, Dan said that one of the best things about cllimate that he's read in recent years was a set of papers put together by the Tony Blair Institute which he said was completely on his side of the argument. And then Tony comes out with his message to the Labour partarty to say, you know, drill not quite drill, baby drill, but sort of, you know Not far off it. There's another way of looking at if we're not a massive oil producer. So on the one hand, we say if we're not the big emitter We shouldn't sort of worry too much unless the rest of the world does. We might say the same about, you know, if we're never going to be a big oil producer, why should we worry about what limited oil and gas resources we've got left in the North Sea It's just sort of crazy. I can I think my final thing is But maybe I'm wrong about this is to win the political debate People have to concede that there are problems What worries me about the way in which someome people, not not so much down, but sometimes he falls into this trap are communicating is they're basically denying that there are issues around price or that there are trade offs. And I think the public is suspicious of The idea that you get the best of all and the best of all possible worlds, that in our normal lives, we know there are trade offffs Yeah. And I would like a bit more acknowledgement of Yes, of course, our energy prices are really high And this is why And this is how we're going to get out of it. And this is why we're in a bind and these are some very difficult choices and sometimes we are being idealistic and spending more So I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's better to just keep insisting that there are no trade offs and that we can decarbonize and have energy security and have affordability and have vibrant industries and there's no trade offffs, but I think the truth is there are massive tradeoffs between those four. No, there are I don't think he was saying there are no tradeoffs. I think he was setting out in the context of, you know, we said right at the top these two massive shocks that we've had that have changed the way people thought about this Look, I think he's I think he's a good voice on this. I think sometimes there are people who probably are not don't necessarily want to get down into the detail of how the market works. We didn't really get into that. I remember when we met him in Helsinki, he was explaining how the market actually works. and it's so complicated and almost it sounds at times so random. it's like these sort of price of one part of the sector is going up and down and the one that's the lowest or the highest will set the price for the the next half hour and it's it sort of feels chaotic. We didn't get into that, but what I feel he is is a a really strong voice and I think we need more people who are keep us focused on the fact that this climate crisis is real because you have an awful lot of people, very powerful people for their own political and business reasons who are pushing in a very opposite direction So that's why I was very pleased that we gave him the platform. We didn't. Thank you to all our listeners for all your Great questions Thank you all very much indeed, and I think this is something we will come back to a great deal. Thank you. See you soon. See you soon, bye.