Brexit Legacy and Future Accountability

Just this week, Nigel Farage declared his biggest single payment yet as an MP two hundred seventy thousand pounds for twelve hours of work from a gold bullion dealer. That works out at twenty two and fivealf thousand pounds an hour, which is double what the same company paid him just nine months earlier. And it comes not long after Nigel Farage was found and accepted five million pounds as a gift from a crypto billionaire who lives in Thailand. This is the man who built his entire political career of being the voice of ordinary left behind Britons, the man of the people fighting for the people. Now one of the wealthiest politicians in British history. So how do we get here? How has a party supposedly for the ordinary working man and woman ended up attracting money from some of the richest people in the world And what do they expect return. 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Because whether you're a renter or homeowner, you deserve peace of mind Shop new blink two K video doorbells at amazon. com slash blink So the rest of politics with me Alister Campbell and joining me to answer your questions on our members series is Kat Non, who is the reporter on the series and who's been following Westminster as a journalist for the past ten years So Cat, let's start with these questions on the five million pound Heidi Are there any journalists still digging into the five million pound gift? or is there now little else to find out now that Farage has brushed it aside? Taz. Has the five million pound donation story harmed Nigel Farage and Reform's brand? Sarah, how much of an impact do you think Farage's five million pound donation will have on Reform's popularity? The reason I just read out three of those is we had tons of questions and people This five million gift whatever you want to call it, really has broken through. So is there much more to find out, Kat and what do you think the damage, if any has been to reform? Yeah, hi, Aon and thank you so much for having me on the show. So firstly, we got a letter from Christopher Harbourne's lawyers complaining about various things, but one of them was the fact that we had described it as a donation rather than a gift Even though actually reform politicians have described it as a donation. So we have scrupulously since kept to the description of it as a gift, that is their words. Taking the questions one at a time, yes, there are definitely journalists still doing digging around it. Of course, we should all remember that it was only because of the hard work of journalists, specifically Anne Isaac at the Guardian that we even know about this because it was not declared and clearly there was no plan to declare it. So it is a very, very difficult story to because of course, it requires knowledge of someone's personal finances and there's not that many sources around it. But since this story has broken, there has been even greater scrutiny on Nidl Farge specifically and reform more generally, looking at where they're getting their money from. Of course, the question as far unanswered whether this is the only some that he received in that sort of period before he became an MP. Interestingly, there are moves afoot within Parliament to try and force that issue. So there is a bill currently going through Parliament at the minute known sort of colloquially as the elections bill. The actual title is the Representation of the People Bill, which is not a name that I'm hugely fond of myself. so let's call it the elections bill. And there is an amendment that has been put down which would force MPs to declare S of money as yet undetermined what sums that they had received in the twelve months before becoming an MP. because there are different ways that it could be interpreted. Most people do think that he has fallen foul of the code of conduct and this investigation currently being carried out by the Standards commommissioner. many people feel that will actually find that he should have declared it and that may force the issue and force him to declare more. But if not, there is this legislative move also being pursued to do that. And that is perhaps one of the more straightforward ways to get more of that information out And of course, we saw last week Nigel Farage pop his head up above the parapet for the first time in a very long time. prettyretty much one of the first times he's taken questions since the five million pounds was reported. And he was very brittle. He kept saying, it's nobody's business. it's nobody's business what I spend it on. Nobody cares Nobody cares, nobody cares. Nobody cares. I can spend it on cars if I want to. I don't even have to spend it on security. which also kind of highlighted another issue that I have been kind of picking up from speaking to various people around Nigel Farage working in the party, which is that they are conscious that He has increasingly under pressure been shown himself to be quite thin skinned. So people might remember when the anti Semitism allegations were made about him. hisis response to that was very combative, very aggressive, particularly towards female journalists. And I know that at least one reform MP actually apologized to the female journalist in question because he felt so kind of ashamed, I suppose at the way that Nidah Farge had responded. I think a lot of this is learned from Trump A lot of Nigel Farrage and reform strategy is very, very Trumpian. and it works up to a point for Trump. My big hope is that it won't work here that actually people don't like it when he shows that brittleeness. It was interesting in those interviews, as you say, he went kind of to ground for quite a while. He was clearly avoiding the media. Normally, you know, he'll turn up the opening of an envelope as long as a camera there And he was particularly brittle with the female journalist it was Sally Nuent on the BBC I felt in particular. And then even Julia Hartley Brew is normally a sort of big flag waver for Nigel Farage, he was doing that noody cares thing. And the Trump, you know, Trump basically says nobody cares about this stuff. He's actually on record as saying that You know, effectively saying I can be more corrupt in the second term because I realized nobody cared about it in the first term Do you think we care more? and is your sense that the parliamentary authorities care sufficiently for this to kind of go the full course and possibly even create a by election. It's interesting speaking to some of the people that were involved in the Boris Johnson Partygate inquiry because that is probably the most recent big standards inquiry that we had. And although a very different issue, people that worked on that and some people that had worked on other cases do feel that not only that has he broken the code of conduct, but the size of the sum And the period in which it was given are such kind of huge strong factors that the suspension that may be recommended would be enough to trigger a by election. But that said, I did go down to Clackton on Friday, hottest Day of the year, lots of people out on the seafront, and many people in Clackton had not heard about it. Wow. Interestingly, even when I explained the story to them, many people said that's disgusting. He's a thief. What a hypocrite all the kind of responses that I think many people regardless of their political persuasion would have to that kind of story But then you say to them, well, if there is a by election, would it change your perspective? Would it change the way you vote And actually, at best I got was people saying they were on the fence. And when they were on the fence, it was more about his failure to do things locally rather than this five million. And I think the problem is that for many people, politicians, politics feel so far away and they do feel sort of a plague on all their houses. Everyone is bad, everyone is at it but I kind of like him a bit more than I like everyone else or I hate him least of all. And so that is the sort of prevailing kind of world view of the people of Clapton that I spoke to. But if you look at this and we're recording this on Tuesday and the Financial Times has broken a story today. Reform UK leader Nigel Farage has declared his biggest single payment as an MP, two hundred seventy thousand pounds from a bullion dealer doubling his fee from twenty twenty five. I mean surely event it gets through to people that this guy who presents himself as a man of the people fighting for them, fighting for the poor and downtrodden and those who have been left behind, he's absolutely minting it as an MP. He is by some distance the best paid outside earner in parliament. Yes, and that's before we even get to the sums that we don't know about. We've been obviously tracking his payments for a very long time. We have a tool called the Westminster acccounts, which collates all of the data And you can see from that that this company, Direct Bullant, has actually given Nigel Farge six hundred eighty five thousand pounds since last election. That's not actually his biggest employer. GB News pays him about one hundred thousand more than that so far But if you look at it in terms of the hours that he spends working for Direct Bullyion, I actually did a piece last year and even then, he was better paid than top flight Premier League footballers. So you can see just sort of how much people are getting for their money. I actually interviewed the boss of this company last year because I wanted to put that exact question to him, you know what do you think you're getting for the money? It was an interesting conversation. He was very forthcoming. He seems to think that the business is doing better because of the brand ambassador that Nigel Farge offers But he also said something which I thought was quite telling, which was that whenever he calls, Nigel answers the phone. And that's helpful if you're running a business But it's also helpful if you're looking ahead to the possibility that he might be the prrime Mister at some point. And the other thing that's worth noting about this guy, Paul Withers, is that he's also behind the company Stack BTC, which Nigel Farge is also involved in, the asiquuartang linked crypto Treasury and even people around Nigel Farage are starting to get a little bit wary of his involvement with things like this because they worry that it, in their view, muddies the waters between what they see as a sort of genuine policy belief that he advocates for crypto as a kind of leller and a sort of way of breaking away from the establishment versus being seen to be sort of privately motivated because he's making money out of it. So some of the people around Nigel see that, not necessarily himself But of course, as you always used to say, there's no money in politics Certainly not if you're straight. But also kind of going back to that trip to Clackton when I was speaking to people in his constituency, what was really clear to me was that They didn't hugely mind about the five million pounds from Christopher Harbourne. They put it in the same kind of vein as the free glasses and the suits that Kirara got right at the start of his time in power that sort of dominated the news for a very long time. And it doesn't matter necessarily that the sums involved are so different but to many of the people that I spoke in Clackton, there was very much a sense that, oh well, they're all in it together. All the politicians are just trying to make a quick buck, you know, kind of fair play to him for making more out of it. I do think that it's more symptomatic of how people feel about politics as a whole rather than politicians as individuals But that being said, it's pretty clear that on a national level, Things are slowing down for them. So there was a UGv poll out this morning showing that they were down one percentage point. Labor were up a couple of percentage points. But that being said, reform is still leading in the polls. Tories and labour now are both on twenty percent They are narrowing slightly, of course, expected burnam bounce, but that drop from reform may well be a little bit to do with this five billion pounds, to do with how he behaves when he's on interviews and to do with a sense that perhaps maybe they've hit the ceiling, maybe people didn't like the way that he reacted to the Henry Novak case There was a sense from some people that he'd kind of crossed a line And so perhaps we are sort of seeing the beginnings of a kind of plateauing or possibly a decline.. I mean, I've felt for some time that he's hit the peat, but you know I'm always conscious of the possibility that's wful thinking And so for example, the Henry Novak, you know, murder that he immediately tried to weaponize in the way that he did. That reminded me of Trump and the Charlottesville, that are good people on both sides. The money stuff, nobody cares reminds me of of Trump constantly sort of saying, whatever the big scandal is, you know, Nobody's talking about that where I go, they're talking about ABC. So he's doing the same thing. I think you're right that he's dropping a little bit because of it. I also think people don't like when Politicians seem to be making sort of ever changing excuses. And this question from Andrew. One line of questioning I've not seen when trying to hold Nigel Farge to account is to make the point that if he becomes Prime Minister, he'll receive armed diplomatic protection for the rest of his life, in which case it follows he won't need this money for security. Surely, it needs to be asked, If you become Prime Minister, will you return the five million pound gift to Christopher Harbourne. And I think we nobody's answer will be going by you know several hundred Ferraris, but do you think I think his problem this is that nobody believes I don't know anybody who believes that that's the case. I mean, the other thing which I find genuinely offensive in the weak The tenth anniversary of Joe Coch's murder, a labour MP who was literally murdered during the Brexit of the referendum campaign ten years ago. that Farage goes out and says he needs this security because he's the most attacked politician in the country. He's actually in his own ways,, you know, he's popular with a certain section of the population So I just think that these constantly shifting excuses, it was a gift. there was no strings attached. I don't know anybody gives somebody five million do without wanting something in return, even if it's unspoken. So the week that the story was reported, you will probably remember, Alistter, what happened was the guardian went to him for a write of reply, gave him two days to come back to them And in that period, he went to the telegraph with a sob story about how one of his homes had been virebombed, there hadd been an arson attack And what we've actually since reported at the observer is that the police investigated it as a possible burglary, not as an arson attack. So even that story didn't kind of stand the test of scrutiny for a couple of days. And since then we've had lots of different reasons given, of course, one of them being as it as a reward for his campaigning for Brexit And then these series of interviews that he gave last week saying, it doesn't matter what I spend it on, I can spend it on what I like I mean, theoretically, that is true. What he's being investigated for is not what are you spending it on? It's whether he should have declared it or not. And the only people that can really make up their mind as to whether or not they are happy with what he's spending this five million pounds on if we ever find out are the people of Clactton. That's why it's so important that the message kind of gets to those individuals and not just to the sort of same group of people that already have decided what they think about Nigel Farge. But this is also you the more that we can do to kind of shine a light on the various money flowing into him and flowing into reform, and the more that politicians can ensure that The system that we have is fit for purpose. It's really important because we have for a long time sort of operated in this kind of good chaps theory form of government and way of things being done in a certain way. And one of the things that I think Trump has exposed and before Nidal Farraage, Boris Johnson has exposed, is that if you don't have ort of quite nailed down rules. If you just go by conventions, then someone can come along and start ripping them up. And I think what Nidl Farage is doing to an extent was kind of kick started really by Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings who came along and were like, well, is it illegal? No, okay fine. then we can do this. Yeah. Look, I agree with you. I think it's terrible and it's unfair that all MPs get tied with the same brush. of course the MP's expenses scandal did a lot on that front and it is on one level absurd to equate K Starmer getting a couple of tickets arsedle on these free glasses with somebody getting literally five million quid bununded into his bank account That is the reality in which we live in a very, very cynical age But I wonder Weetather the fact that it's not just Nigel Ferarage. So Richard Tice has had issues to do with his taxation. And of course he does the same response. you know, notothing to see here, no law broken, all above board, da da da. And then of course you've got one of their big defectors, Robert Jenrichick has had one or two issues to do with his funding and his financing. As that becomes the prism through which they're being regarded, then I think a change can come further down the track in terms of public opinion. becausecause if your hold stick is that you're the kind of, you know, you're the man of the people fighting for the common man, fighting for the guy who's being, you know, beaten up by the authorities And suddenly you seem to be like the Uber elitist very, very hard for that stick to hold. Yes. And I think also what's important is if you look at where those stories have come from. So the Richard Tice one is a good example because that was actually a Sunday Times investigation or series of investigations And I think it's sometimes easy for people on the right of politics to say, well, it's the guardian, it's the observer. It's the rest is politics. You would say that, wouldn't you? But when you have even centerite publications doing it, then people probably realize that it's not a partisan issue as much and therefore it cannot be ignored, that it is a kind about having an ethical standard, an ethical red line that people will not cross I mean, just to go back to the point that you were making about security, it is true to say that although he is very popular Nigel Farage He is also very, very disliked. you know this is not to say that there isn't security issues there But Parliament offers every MP tailored security according to their needs. And so we don't know exactly what went on because Parliament does not comment on specific individual circumstances. But I know from speaking to MPs regularly about the type of arrangements that they have, the fact that the police are really involved in making sure that everything is okay, you know they might drive past their house. they might drive past their loved one's house when they're not even there. There is a real consciousness, perhaps too little too late that MPs are genuinely at risk from people that would like to do them harm. And so you know I think It's difficult to say But the idea that Parliament would leave anyone in the lurch seems to me to be somewhat implausible Yeah, I mean, I also think that there is an element within politics. and I do see this particularly on the right where it's almost like a status symbol you know, if you're surrounded by four guys with earpieces coming out of their, you know, their left earhole to somehow It makes you look much, much more important Now, I know I'm sure that people who close to Farraage will hear that and think, you know, that's outrageous, that's ridiculous. But you know I've heard him talk about death threats. I've very, very, very many people in politics get death threats, okay I can remember not long ago I was in the same building as Farage. and look, I've worked with peopleeople who've been under the highest level of of protection that there is in the British state right now And I was at this event with Nigel Farge and He had a team of people who came in they were doing the same sorts of things. Now Unless they'd heard something very, very specific about that day I've got to say, I think it felt very performative to me. And so, you know, and that's why I got so angry about the Joe Coxy, that, you know, him saying that in that week of all weeks. Because the truth is the more you highlight, that there are these threats out there. Sometimes that actually exacerbates the problem for the many who do not have protection. It's very interesting what you said about Clectton that they don't like it, but also there wasn't that much awareness and even when there was awareness, would it shift the vote? notot so sure Bearing in mind that the party at the higher level with the MPs and the sort of full time activists and so forth Is there the beginnings of chatter about whether Farraage is actually going to see out this Parliament Um I would say not within reform the Core partarty I think most people are sort of still banking on him staying. I think that maybe has much to do with the realization that if he doesn't lead them into the next general election, they will have a much tougher time as it is to do with reality, but I think it's implausible that Robert Denrick would not have defected if he didn't think he was going to have a good chance of being leader fairly soon because he was either going to lead the Conservatives at some point or lead reform at some point and perhaps he might think that it was sooner there than at the Tories. I think that There are growing suspicions from some of the rival political parties that it's maybe getting to him that maybe he's, you know, if you think about How long he spent as an outsider? You know he talks he's been a campaigner for sort of twenty, thirty years, even when he was an MEP, he was an MEP that sort of reveled in his outsider status And the idea that you know, he might finally get into power and His legacy is yet another failed prime Mister I think It will be giving him pause for thought. Certainly, that's what some people are saying. And so I think there probably is, you maybe some suggestion and certainly if the polles continue to either plateau or even go down. and with this five million pounds sort of circling him, it's not inconceivable that he says, you know what I've done great job, I've brought us this far and now I will be the best prime Minister you ever had because it would sort of allow him to have a kind of off ramp as someone described it to me without actually being put to the final test. But you know, we always say this The sort of draw of power is far stronger than people kind of quote unquote normal people realize. And so I think it would be a big step for him not to do it having got this far Well, a question from Bailey, could reform get support with a different leader? or is their success entirely tied to Nigel Farraage? I mean, I guess that's what you've been addressing there. He's obviously been worried about the one man ban thing, which is why he has welcomed him people like Genrich and Swela Bravaman and and Ndem Zaharwi and you know and I remember that meeting that I had with him, I remember him telling me it was before I'd even heard of Zia Yusuf and he was telling me, I've got this guy coming in S youurf, he's really impressive, he's really going to shake things up, etcetera. So he's conscious of that Do you think they've done polling on the extent to which reform is Nigel Farraage? And I wonder what it says? I don't know for certain, but I would imagine they have done. I mean, certainly, I think Robert Denrick has a fairly sort of well established team. He's probably been doing his own polling. He certainly has enough of his own donors that that could certainly be afforded out of his pocket rather than central budget is both a blessing and a curse. So when you look at, for example, the local elections and even the Makerfield elections They were able to bypass spending rules for both of those because they campaigned on a national level rather than on local issues. And that is to them win win because it means they just passast a Nida Farrage all over their campaign literature and then they don't have to worry about spending limits or even saying how much they have spent on things. Is that not being addressed by the elections bill Again, I think that is something which may have to come through in amendments, but as things stand, and certainly I don't think it would be retrospective. The local election, it's a bit sort of skies the limit and you can guess how high they went on that, which is why you had weird things like, I think there was a Welsh newspaper that had picked up that they were advertising about something in London in one of their campaign literatures. So it looks a bit disorganized, but it basically gets the message out, you know, vote reform, vote for change. you know the finer details are maybe not necessarily what everyone's going to pick up on. And you don't have to worry about how much it costs because you've just got million pounds from a guy in Thailand. So they are able to sort of pump this stuff out with Nigel Farage's face on it and not really have to worry too much about the consequences. It does mean that I think there is a succession issue. I think Robert Genrick and possibly Zia Yussef also sees himself as a successor I mean, Alista, I'm sure you watched Question time last week when ia Ysef seemed to suggest that he'd been blocked from standing as a candidate. I don't know whether you fell for that one or not. I mean I'm a bit skeptical myself. My usual rule about question time is I only watch it if I'm on it But I did I did see I did see the clip I see a use of and it looked to me. it was actually the tory, wasn't it? Kevin Hollandwrright was giving him a hard time up why I never. Wh I never stood. He looked like me like somebody trying to find a reason to rebt, but I'm assuming that nobody has confirmed that he was blocked at any point I have been asking some of my reform sources and no one has been able to come up with a sort of by election or any other seat that he has applied for and been turned down from. But you know maybe we'll find the receipts at some point. Who knows And then I mean, none of them though, if you look at any of them, Richard T, see you surf and generate. I mean who I guess are the most high profile the ones who most on television, I would say, U I mean, they're not they're not great, are they? They're not. Nja Farage that I have to acknowledge has got something that cuts through to the public I'm not sure they do It wouldn't be my choice, but it's not really my choice of politics either. And I think Zia Yusf is another one who doesn't always speak to women with the greatest of respect Again, I think in questestion time, the way that he spoke about BBC trying to sort of rig the numbers so that it looked as though there were fewer reform voters and being put very much in his place know, it was kind of the first time I think that perhaps he sort of had that situation. but he was perfectly happy to talk all over the women, Emily Thornbury as well, who were on the panel. You know to me watching that as a woman, that doesn't sit well, I don't like it. Robert Jenroick and Richard Tyice are more respectful, but still kind of have their moments. And I think The sort of interesting thing that has been happening with some of the defections as they come over is how they affect the sort of pecking order within reform and what that does to some of the tensions within the team. So I understand that Zia Yusf didn't actually talk to Robert Genick for about two months after he came over, but I think primarily because he was a Tory and Zia Yusuf clearly does not trust Tories, he thinks that their job is to destroy the Conservative partarty. You know, the extent to which there's also a bit of male ego and hierarchy kind of coming into play there, I would imagine that's probably another reason why they didn't speak for a long time. although I gather they are speaking now Oh, good to know that Gic and the use of a speaking. that's love, lovely, lovely news for us. 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Listen, we've got loads of questions on this one, Cat, Katie, Victoria Is it true that reform is a company, not a political party? and if so What does that mean? Sara, how does reform get away with it being a limited company What are the rules there Yes, so in reality, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference how it's structured, whether it's a limited company or like other parties, an unincorporated association. they're all bound by the political parties, Elections and Referendum Act. So that means that they all still have to declare donations in exactly the same way regardless of how they are compos The fact that they are a company means that it's more about the control of direction. it's potentially around if there are any profits. But certainly when it comes to declaring donations and so on, it doesn't really have any bearing on that side of things. Yeah. You've talked a couple times about the kind of manosphere issues and I think you're right, here Yusf, I've noticed that as well with him that he seems uncomfortable when he's being quizzed by women. That being said Ethan Bausscher, why do you think so many young people, especially men are drawn to reform? Finn? I work with builders in Essex. What's the best way to explain to them that reform is not for the working class Look, I meet a lot of working class men who tell me that reform sort of they're going to vote reform. They have voted reform. and usually it's in the area. sometometimes it is just straightforwardly about, you know, get the immigrants out That is a big part of it. But I think sometimes it's just look I've tried labour or I've tried Tory. sometometimes I've tried both. And I just feel that The country's not right. I'm not in a good place. I don't My life's not that great and Farage looks like he gets it. That's kind of what I take for what they, but do you think I'm missing anything? Is there anything deeper than that? do you think So I think for the last few years Really since Brexit, the parties, both Labour and the Conservatives have responded to Nigel Farge in whatever iteration he has existed in by trying to outdo him or prove that they can be like him. And what we've seen with both the Tories and kissed Aa has been that they have tried to outfage farage and they have not succeeded in doing that And I think that it was interesting and a breath of fresh air actually to hear Andy Burnham on Monday talk about you what the subtext of what he was saying was effectively defeating populism with a bit of positivity, a bit of instead of punching down and saying, you're feeling worse off because of the immigrants and you're feeling worse off because of the scrounders on benefits and whatnot that actually he was talking about reshaping the economy and redirecting some of the investment into the nations and regions. Now, talking a could talk all well and good, whether he actually can do that is another thing. But that was the first time I felt for a long time that I actually heard a different diagnosis of the problem and a different possible solution. It is going to be really difficult, of course, but I think there is a lot of this kind of populism both on the right and the left actually, which is post financial crash. exacerbated by Brexit, exacerbated by inflationary issues from COVID and all the rest of it. People feel poorer and they want to blame someone and who's the obvious target? Well, it's the immigrants. And so if you kind of allow the politicians and all of them right and left, or not all of them, but a majority of them have followed Farraage and the others in doing this then of course, that's what people think that is the solution. But actually if you present an alternative that is a bit more optimistic then a lot of people will go for that. And so I am, you know an optimist that it doesn't have to be this way, but I remain on the fence until I have seen what the actual plan is. Yeah, I thought it was interesting though that in the Make of Field B election which was obviously a big risk for Randy Bernam when we looked at the polling at the start that he didn't really go for the reform candidate in a way that, you know think a lot of Labourarti campaigners have just gone right, you know, this guy's given us so much ammunition. There was lots of stuff being pumped out maybe on his behalf and for the Labour partarty. But Andy Burnham, even when he was on the same platform, the same stage was very much, you know We have to listen to what he's saying and very very kind of respectful. Whether we'll be able to do that with Varagej and the House of Commons, Rory and I talked about this on the podcast earlier. that the House of Commons is so constructed an engineer for combat. that whether if Farage plays his same game, which I suspect he will, and Bidlock as well, whether Andy Berlock will be able to hold that sense of trying to do politics in a different more collaborative way, I don't know. And the point about How to explain that reform isn't for the working class. I think that's again, where this money stuff does come in You know, these these are people who looked to be doing very, very well for themselves on the back of being politicians. And I think eventually that has to get through. And the the other thing for me with for, you know, why they're not for for the working class, I'll tell you they are for I to state real. they're for Russia. You know, this is a this is a party that is is we've still not got to the bottom of their links during the Brexit campaign. We've still lo got to the bottom of the Russian influence in our in the hard right of our politics. And so I think that there's lots of different ways that you can go for them. But in terms of explaining to the working class, you basically got to be saying to them, These people are not for you. They do a very, very good job of pretending that they're for you. But look who they're benefiting now. they're benefiting themselves. Cat, you mentioned the other parties and I guess the one that maybe is most alarming to Farraage is Rore and Rupert Low. Hope Hunter is Rore a genuine threat to reform Sam, do you think Low is a greater threat to reform the Conservatives? What do you make of the Rupert Lowe situation. I mean, he didn't do as well in make a field as he said he was going to, but he's kind of come from nowhere He's obviously got a lot of money. He's got Elon Musk backing him. there was a point where Farage thought Elon Musk was going to be backing him. Do you agree with Sam that Lowe might be a greater threat to reform than the Tories? I think on a national level, no, but I think what is interesting about Rupert Lowe is that he has some of the same target seats that reform would have wanted. And actually just to go back to my visit to Clackton, although people weren't necessarily talking about Rut Low, I think that if there was another party that would stand there, and I know for a fact that if there is a by election, restore will stand against reform, that people might be minded to go for him because we've seen with focus groups and also the numbers in various polls that there is this sense that actually reform is starting to feel a bit like it's a part of the establishment, whether it is the five million or whether it's just a sort of familiarity breeding contempt issue. There are people who now see Neidal Farage and some of his fellow reform MPs as part of the problem rather than the solution. And so there is this drift towards Rore. You know the question is not so much about whether or not Rore could get as many seats as reform or could threaten them in that sense, but just actually taking away enough of their voters that they don't get an overall majority in a given seat is enough. And I appreciate that with Makerfield it was more than the total Andy Bernham won by much more than the total combined restore and reform vote. But nonetheless, having that eat away at you. And also in the system that we have, having any kind of doubt as to whether or not you might be the viable second place or first place does then kind of act as a vicious loop against you. So there is it's more than just could they you know are theyg a bigger threat than the conservatives, ose enough of a threat to the right of reform. And someone actually was saying to me, you know Restore is doing to reform what reform have done to the Tories. And that's also why we've seen a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the Henry Novak case, to the Belfast stabbings, where it feels as though things have shifted further rightwards in quite a quick space of time because they're trying to sort of outdo the threat It is why we kind of see them talking about grooming gangs. I mean, the candidate, the reform candidate in the Greater Manchester Mayalty candidacy now, she's talking about grooming gangs. And again, I think that's a thing that has really only become an issue because of Rore and because of the pressure that Rore are putting on reform Interesting. And I guess the other thing that you see through the Nigel F Farraage L story is he does seem to have difficulty in maintaining relationships with people who get to be as powerful as he is. I mean, Rupert Low was elected under the Nigel Farage Reform UK banner gone off, shown that he can do somethingomething different And the other thing, do you think there's any possibility? I mean I only ask this because I read about it. I don't have any independent knowledge at all, but I read it in one of the newspapers that Christopher Harborne is actually beginning to rue putting so much money into reform because it doesn't seem to be delivering what he thought at one stage it would Do you think there's the a possibility actually that the big donors start to think, well, this is not going to lead where we thought it was, which was a Frage government. I mean, that's always a possibility. I don't have a speed dial to Christopher Harbourne. Unfortunately, if I did, I probably wouldn't be sat here in a tiny cupboard speaking to you. You'd be in a tin cupboard Thailand. I'd be in a six star suite in Thailand, I think, actually owned by him. But what I also saw at the weekend was reports that he is going to he has come back onto the electoral register here instead of being an overseas voter. he's now described as a UK voter and some suggestion that that's how he's going to try and get around what efforts the Labour government is making to try and sort of stamped down on overseas donors. So The other thing is, Alistair, know he is a multi multi billionaire. know that interview with the teelegraph, I thought was unintentionally revealing because he was asked how much he was worth and he couldn't even put a figure on it. He doesn't know how many billions he's worth. And so to me, you know, obviously five million is an insane amount of money. It's kind of completely changed the game British politics, but to him it's just a fraction of his wealth. So he might not be that happy with the direction of travel, but it's certainly money that he can afford to lose. My final one and you know I think we've done very, very well to get this far without talking about Brexit, but I think we have to because this is the thing I I find it extraordinary Yeah The three history will basically say that the three big drivers of Brexit were David Cameron with the referendum and Johnson and Farrage. because they led the two campaigns that between them pulled it off. Johnson went on to be Pime Minister as we know and David Cameron, I think would accept and I believe even when in his rare, honest moments, Boris Johnson would accept that Brexit has not delivered what those who fought for it said it said that it would. And yet still, despite all that damage, Nigel Farge is still being talked off as possibly being the next Prime Minister. So Gavin Wigington, why is't Farage held accountable for the disaster of leaving the EU Mick Cayahill, Given the weight of data that now exists about the damage Brexit has done to the economy, shouldn't Labour's obvious strategy be to slip in mention of said damage and Farage's responsibility for it every opportunity. But I'm guessing that the people you are talking to that you were talking to in Clacta the weekend are basically saying Well, He fought for what he believed in and he won and it hasn't delivered what he said it was because he wasn't in charge of it. How do they rationalize the fact that he's done something? which has done damage to their lives or do they not see the connection with Brexit at all? I'm just trying to think whether the B word came up at all. People were talking about small boats peopleeople were far more exercised about local issues. so potholes Dog mess. peoplee on e bikes and e scooters And that' again, that's where people there was frustration, o, he's just used us as a way to get into power, but he doesn't really care about us and In terms of Brexit, in terms of why people aren't using it more You know as well as I do Allister, there is an intense nervousness in Westminster about doing it because Labour has a very shallow majority. I mean, obviously lots and lots of MPs, but many of them sitting on very, very narrow margins. and they are worried about upsetting the apple cart because a lot of them are hero voters, quote unquote, people will have voted for Brexit back in the day. So there is that. There is also, I think, probably still for many people in Westminster, their own sort of personal wounds that they carry from having gone through it all. And I think the easy answer that Naidel Farge and certainly the people around Nid Farge give is Well, it's not his fault, what happened afterwards because he wasn't in charge. and had he been in charge, of course, he would have made a success of it. We thought they would do better than they did. And so even if you try to sort of get him on that front, there's a sort of easy answer. It's actually arguably far better to push him on his record as a constituency MP now or as the leader of a political party in Parliament now than than Brexit because You know, arguably and they do argue, he campaigned for something, he achieved it. the people that were in charge then made a mess of it. Okay. well, I will not give up, but I get that that is a lot of what people think. but Final point for me, K, what did you find most interesting about taking the time you did to delve into all this. Was there anything that particularly surprised you, particularly shocked you And what else you what was the next chapter in the Farraage funding story, do you think? So I think that we will find out fairly soon whether he has whether he has fallen foul of the code of conduct. and I think there may well be a further reckoning, as I said at the start, in terms of this legislation as to whether there was more money given to him in the year or few months before he became an MP. I think that one of the things that I kind of have a little B in my bonnet about is that he is a shareholder of all perserspectives, which is the parent company of GB News He does not declare that on his register because he interprets it through one set of rules. I think there's another set of rules that could be seen to suggest that he should be declaring it. I think it would be very interesting to see how much that's worth and also to get a bit more detail about where the money for all perspectives is coming from because by all accounts, it seems to be a sort of loss making venture currently that is propping up the party. And you obviously, you and others have done work around the number of people being interviewed who are just reform or reform activists. and it iss populated by reform people as well, a lot of the people that work on it I am interested in what comes next in terms of that side of things. I think there is still quite a lot of interest in Robert Genick's case, which we haven't really touched on yet, but I think that may yet yield some more interesting lines there as well. And so think I mean, look I think that there is probably still quite a wealth of stories p not intended about reform and their funding, which will keep us all very busy for a very long time. Well, well done on the series. I've thoroughly enjoyed listening to it and I hope you enjoyed doing it. And this episode that you and I are doing K is going out to all who want it. but people have to become members to listen to your series. and they do that by going to the rest is politics. com. But I think you're right. I think this is a story that will run and run because I think there's There's something in what they think politics is about and what it's for and the kind of people they're appealing to that I think we're going to see more and more stories about big money and reform. and I hope you'll help us Ferret them out. Thanks for all your time. I will certainly intend to. Thank you