Hypnosis and the Nature of Nothing

Hello and welcome to Rest is Science. I'm Michael Stevens. I'm Hannah Frery and this is an episode of Field Notes, which is where Michael and I empty our houses of any scientific linked crap that we've got lying around and bring it to you for your entertainment. You're welcome. I'm speaking out of turn here. These are all carefully curated objects that are genuine scientific interest. Very true. And today I'm bringing in an object that was given to me as a gift by Romish Ranganathan Oh, it's right here. The comedian, the brilliant comedian. he gives a gift to every guest who appears on his pocket. This is what he gave me. I would say it is somewhere between extremely boring and potentially lethal. So that. That's what we've got coming up This episode is brought to you by Cancer Rarch UK. Here's something strange Y DNA contains more ancient viral fragments than jeans The genes that build our cells make up only two percent of our DNA. and for years, that is what scientists focused on. 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I've seen giant ones at science museums and I just watch and I go, oh, Id better look that up someday to learn how it works, but I don't know. Maybe today is the day, Michael. Today Micha. Maybe today is the day. Okay, so what it's doing is it's basically a transformer So it it's a way to step up the voltage. from a current. So normal transformers, I don't know, if you like buy something in America and then use it in the UK or vice versa, you need a transformer because it's two hundred forty volts in the UK and one hundred twenty. Yeah When is in two twenty It's less Its less US. less. Anyway, less. But what this is doing is it has two circuits are tuned to the same resonant frequency. So what it does is it sort of sloshes the electricity backwards and forwards between them to just really amp up voltage goesed. Yeah. Right. But it doesn't add more. The current is the same. It's the voltage that is increased. I think the current goes down. Oh. Aren't they connected to each other? I don't know much about electricity, which is even more reason for us to play with this. Okay, I'll be honest, we're absolutely at the limits of my recollection from A. This is an important moment though to show that we're always learning. Yeah. Like I'm still at the level of Current is like the amount It's like the flow amount, but then the pressure behind it is the voltage. Like I have a Bandigraph generator and that produces extremely high voltages. like in the millions, And yet it can spark you and it's not leasant but it doesn't kill you because the current is small. It's high voltage, but only a few electrons. Yeah. You can have a lot of electrons and barely a difference between two places and you'll get very low voltage, but that current can be really dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing that you have to really worry about The high voltage is the thing that looks really fancy But it's the current makes a big difference. Dangerous thing. There are two lightning labs actually that I've visited at various points for different TV programs. One of which is like this kind, has a massive Tesla coil, unbelievably high voltage. lookooks incredible. lightightning in the sky, right? It's amazing. And the other one The high current lighting lab looks pathetic Extremely dangerous. Eremely dangerous. Eremely dangerous. Yeah. Okay the way the analogy actually that I liked, when I was doing physics at school, my whole class came up with this fun idea that actually electricity is just elves. They're like little elves who are running around inside the wireres. Is that not true? I haven't seen it disproven, so exxactly. You know, And look, the whole point of science is it falsifiable. So this is something Maybe we should look into it, guys. Maybe we should. But the idea is that the current is the number of elves that you have, and the voltage is how much water they're bringing with them in their buckets. Okay, cool. yeah, that works for me too. Okay for the purposes of this episode. For the purposes of this episode, we'll do that. Okay, so what this is doing is caring about the voltage and reducing the current as a result. Okay, so for those of you listening, this box Hannah has brought Plexig gllass box, it's clear. You can see all the electronics inside, which there isn't much. There's mainly empty space in there. There's a couple transformers And the box is maybe, I don't know, two inches tall and then it's u depth and length is like maybe four or five inches But on top there's a golden disc And a needle is sticking straight up, like a steel needle that gets gets quite sharp at the tip. And that's about, I don't know, three inches tall U then there's two knobs. One says frequency and one says power and it's plugged in. All right, should I turn it on, see what see what happens? Oh I guess go ahead. Yeahah. Okay let's Wh just if my laptops Okay. It's not really a good idea Exec. Okay, yes That's really cool. It was been frightened me. Yeahah. Okay So we should describe what we just what we've just witnessed. Yeah From the very tip of that needle, the sharpest point There was an explosion of what looked like miniature lightning. Yeah, lightning bolts in all directions like a ball Uh, you know, those, um, plma. Yeah like a plasma ball, when you touch the plasma ball and there's like this lightning bolt that comes from the middle out to the edges. We saw those. It was almost like jellyfish like. That describes the color well, it's like a fluorescent blue. Yeah. Oh, I would say even pinky almost. Oh, there's some pink in there too, for sure. Yeah So there's the voltage, what in that spike is getting so strong that the electrons are like, I gotta leave, but they have nowhere to go except into air, which they don't like to go through unless they really have to. That's why it's so explosive. Yeah. And I'm hearing pops. Right. That poppy noise is what? So what's happening is we are literally ionizing the air. Yeah You have those little arcs that you see coming out It's and the purple even, you are turning the air into plasma. literally as it happens. I mean that is pretty. So you're stripping the electrons off the nuclei.ing the electrons off the nucleide in Wow Yeah. So what if you lick it? I mean, you're welcome too Am I? Are you do you really want that on your conscience? Because I'll do it. No, I'. I think it's probably better not to. But yeah, you can because I think technically you can touch it, but maybe don't. I'm not going to. No. I mean, that was both frightening and I didn't think it'd be so loud. I know. Yeah, the way that this is working though it's using resonance. So if you imagine a person on a swing,, if you're pushing a child on a swing, if you manage to get them at the right frequency, they can go higher and higher and higher. So what this is is effectively like two people pushing, right back and back and forth and back and forth in order to really elevate the voltage. I mean, you're getting like hundreds of thousands if not millions of volts right at that very tip. enough to strip the electrons from the air. Yeah, because electricity doesn't like to move through air. It's got to have really high voltage to arc like that. So in this lightning lab that I went to in Germany Well they had a giant one of these. They put me in a Faday cage. A to protect you too protect me and then electrocuted me. But you were okay. I was okay. So they shot bright blue arcs of electricity at you, but the Faraday cage Protected you. Yeah. How much do you know about Tesla, by the way? Becauseuse he's a wild guy. Not as much as I should. so tell me. Okay, so he he had these really quite bonkers ideas. One of the things that he really wanted to do was he wanted to sort of use these general ideas to broadcast electricity through the earth. All right So rather than having to use a wire, Yeah, right. you could just everything would just work. So and he managed to get funding for this as well. So in nineteen oh one it was backed by JP. Morgan and he started to build something called the Wardencliff Tower on Long Island. And the pitch was that it was going to be wireless telegraphy. but what he actually wanted to do was to build a sort of planet size Tesla coil, right that would use the earth as this giant kind of resonant gavity. Yeah. And then anyone would be able to just stick an antenna in the ground and then pull electricity kind of for free out of the ground. Yeah. And then Morgan found out about this, JP Morgan found out about this and he was like, actuallyually I'm making quite a lot of money from metered utilities at the moment. So I'm going to go with no So he shut off the funding that But wouldnt have worked? So no, probablyably There's like all kinds of slight problems about how far this thing kind of the level of power that you would need to put into it would have been so absurd. Yeah. Even if you did manage to get it to work, which you probably wouldn't have done. It would have had all of these repercussions. So like you know fences, for example, would start humming. Yeah I was going to say anything stuck in the ground. Bathtubs Yeah if you get a massive electric shot from your bathtubs Probably your fillings in your teeth, they would like start to rattle. This doesn't sound good. Birds also would have a terrible time. Birds would navigate using electromagnetic. Right Fields, essentially. Bees also game over. Yeah, it would have been pretty bad. It also probably would have been strong enough to actually cook flesh in the immediate vicinity of the transmitter. Yeah It's arline It could be worse places. Tesla though, he was really into resonance. L this stuff. He claimed to shaken a building off of its foundations using just a resonant device that sure' kind of size. Yeah, yeah. And I mean Maybe not completely absurd. We do know the buildings can get taken down by residents, right. There's the famous bridge, what's called Yeah the Taca Tacoma Bridge. Bridge. Yeah. Then there's the Millennium brridge as well, which had problems with resonant frequencies. which ended up being very wobbly and didn't get. And that one's here. That one' here exactly. And so there's there is something in it that if you find the resonant frequency of particular structure, it can sort of shake itself apart. His story was that he had this oscillator, was kind of sh shaking this building, tuned it to the resonident frequency of the stilleel structure. and then nearby buildings started shaking too, and then plasteres started falling and the windows started cracking and then police were called. and he was like, no, this is awful and got a sledgehammer and smashed it to pieces. And then he later told a reporter that he could split the earth like an apple if he wanted to using resonance. Nice. I mean, look he was a salesman He was That's definitely what we can say. He also, when you are in the room with one of these, if you have one of these, you can light up fluorescent bulbs without physically touching them. Yeah because there is just enough charge that is in the air in the air for a fluorescent bulb to light up. Yeah. Exactly. So you know, this idea of like wireless charging It kind of does sort of work if you don't mind your teeth rattling around in your head. I do though. I sort of do as well. The other about things about Tesla, he's a kind of a sort of really strange guy. so could he could recite entire books from memory. Okay What skill? He's ready for Fahrenheit four hundred fifty one.'s ready for. We'ust burn all the books. We'll have Tesla memorized. just exactly. why not? But he was also really terrified of pearls he would refuse to speak to any woman who was wearing pearls. I didn't know that. Yeah. You've got a pearl right there on your laptop. I do. Sorry, Tesla. Sorry, Tesla, but you know, yin and yang, they have to be together. Exactly. In fact, I tri to put that there deliberately just a sick I can tell. J to sicken him. He also fell in love with the pigeon But like for real, a white pigeon that he had in New York And when the pigeon died in his arms in a hotel room He wrote, I love that pigeon as a man loves a woman, and she loved me As long as I had her my. That's very sweet. It's very sweet, isn't it? I need to learn a lot about electricity. The thing is, I've got to be honest with you, they are sort of a novelty item. Yeah, I don't know what else you're gonna do with it. You can stick flowers and stuff on the needle and watch them. They get damaged possibly burnnt after a while from those arcs. I think what's worth saying is that this is a point in time when electricity is So exciting You know, first you had Volta, who was the first person really to create a steady electric current. Then you have Farata who comes along and manages to reliably create it and harness it in some ways All of this stuff is going on, but this was really the point where it's like, actually, we can do stuff with this. You know, Edison is around. He's like looking at light bulbs and things. there's telephone wires that are being strung up around the place. It's like this real age of excitement and thrill and lots of people were toally enamored with just the very power of electricity. That's a good point. I think we always have something like that in society. Today, maybe it's AI. Before and till to this day, it was nuclear weapons, things where someone could threaten to rip the world in half with it And it was changing society dramatically. And with electricity That's a huge jump to go from I can't speak to my cousin who's halfway across the country unless I want to wait suddenly with wires withith telegraphy. The world became so small so quickly. It was a copernican shift. Yeah. There was a time when this was part of that. I mean, this this was sort of witchcrafts to the generations that existed before. That's right. it was unnatural. Yeah. And today we take it for granted Yeah, godlike powers, lightning in your room. Light at night. M C cool light. Well, they were warm lights, but they didn't they't didn't run out of oil. No, absolutely. I have actually heard people compare the invention of AI or I guess the advances in AI, to the discovery of electricity. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think it probably is, you know, the first time I heard it I was like Come on But actually as time's gone on, I think it probably is actually as seismic as that. in the way that now it's really difficult to imagine basically anything without our use of electricity and how we've managed to harness it. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I hope you enjoyed that. I really did. Yeah, it's cool, isn't it? We're gonna to be back after the break with some of your questions Hi, this is Garal Linka from Goldhangers. The rest is foootball. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. 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I love this Question As I've looked at things similar, like what's the oldest song that we all basically still know today And the answer there, I think, a good one. you know, we can't always be totally sure, but it's probably green sleeves. Really? It's a very old song and people might not know the name of it, but they'll recognize it when they hear it. Is it this one No that's sps. Wait, how does it go? Look at my green sleeves aren't they c? No, wait if you play it, I'll know it. I think you You think you were right? No, I don't think I was That's it that's it, That's it. That's I remember hearing that was written by Henry VII. It may have been, I don't even know. It seemeems unlikely But the question is more like you took credit for it What's the oldest symbol that we still recognize today first of all, it really comes down to what you think a symbol is. So the definition I'm going to use is that a symbol is something that represents something else through an arbitrary or conventional connection.. So for example Handprint. I'm not considering a symbol. That's an index. Yeah. it iconically looks like a hand and it's a sign that a hand had been there. a footprint. these things are not for me symbols. Alphabetic letters are symbols A, the letter A and then what it means, what it's referring to are really different. And it's through convention. It's through our social rules that we learn. A means a A, those sounds. Anyway I think that like gestures came before graphical representation. Animals have body postures and things and gestures, but those are also not really symbolic. They kind of biologically happen. E this meaning yes and this meaning no There are hypotheses that those actually come from infant behavior That like to go like this is to reject a nipple. know This is to like suck. Give me a boo Give me a boob. Again, this is just a guess. we can't really be sure, But it's not uniform, right? Because in India, this means yes That's true Uh, but they still have no I mean, this doesn't mean yes. This means like I'm following. I think it sl of does though, you know? I think this is like more of the yes of like, yes, I hear you, rather than the yes I consent, kind of Let us know in the comments, by the way, because we're clearly at the limit of of our. Yeah, we are I can I can See the origins of things like no Yes, I stop and that is you're actually stoping something's motion.ree. If it's too tied to physical things, then I don't find it very symbolic.ure. So I think my answer to the question is going to be The connection between a mark, like a notch and the concept of number. One notch means one sheep That is symbolic because that one notch doesn't have to mean oneness. And yet as soon as it did, Notches could have meant days or how many sheep you moved here and you want to make sure that you get a notch for every sheep that comes back But even before those notches, there were like tally counters like a little stone. Every time you had a sheep walk by you could put a stone in a bag. And then when you brought the sheep back in, you would take a stone out for each sheep and you would know that they'd all come back because you were associating the pebble with one sheep. L that is that coin being a symbol for the sheep is a Big leap. right? that to me basically number any kind of symbol, a notch, a dot, a pebble, a stroke. I don't know which came first, but those representing amount or representing an individual or any individual would probably be the first step in symbolic thinking. Yeah, I think that's probably right, actually. I was thinking about I was thinking when the question came through, I was thinking about sort of physical marks on page. I know and they may want an answer more like that. I am talking about physical marks, like like a dash for a one or just a slash for a one. Because it is if it is which which letter slash symbol is the oldest I mean Zero's go good sh show, isn't it Well did whyy did the Romans neglect it so much? I mean, sure, but the Indians were aware. Yeah So Circles and squares and spirals we find in the most ancient cave paintings. And we find a lot more of those kind of like doodles than we do the more famous and well known depictions of bison and other animals So And what I was hung up on with geometric shapes is that Although as a shape, it's been around forever, as a thing that we dooodle, but as a symbol for something specific, it's changed and we don't really know what they were trying to represent with the spirals they drew, right So about in language, is there a language? What's like the oldest language or oldest letters that have continually been in use. Do we know? Because you could reasonably pick up some ancient Greek text. Yeah and Sure the words might be different, ancient Greek to modern Greek. sort there's a really big distinction in the languages. but the letters have some commonality, right? Yeah. but I think we need to go further back than Greek letters. I'm thinking that. You can go back Kill a hundred thousand years right to just literally like theseese notches represent one thing that I gave you and this helps me remember. I'm externalizing thought. Yeah in a symbolic way. Yeah. So it is still a cool question. like which doodle, which like graphical symbol has always meant what it means even to this day The problem is there a lot of old ones like the swastika is super old. And if you look this question up The spiral or a swastika is like super, super ancient. But what it has symbolized has certainly changed a lot. and meant different things to different people at different times So I kind of didn't include that one. I was really like, I want this to be So The same still Yeah, I like thatw. So I'm going with a notch. Absolute lll if your answer had been this fastica. I know when I saww that one careful. I was like, o, I hope that's not the answer Yeah, well, thankfully it isn't because we've got little pebbles. Oh can I just say that? Ohh yeah, go ahead. there's a good argument to be made that that in an arrow is quite old because the arrow meananing direction would have come from the use of spears even before graphical language So and arrows have always meant direction here, they draw attention and that's very much what symbols do. They draw your attention to something else. And the arrow is trying to do that, evenven if it's drawing your attention to something else on the surface So if you're looking for an actual shape you can draw, I think arrow I I think you're probably pretty good. Yeah, arrow's gott toa be older than written language. Yeah Yeah, definitely I like that a lot. I don't know if any of this is correct But it's hard to know because we're talking about prehistoric things. Absolutely. Okay, here's another question from Sam, who askks in a recent episode, you briefly mentioned hypnosis, but I was wondering, what causes hypnosis? Have you ever been hypnotized No I haven't. I don't think I'm I resist too much. I resist too much as well. I did actually do an episode with the BBC where me and my co host, Adam Rutherford were hypnotized and it didn't work on me, but it absolutely did work on him. Yeah, and I believe it, I believe that it's a real thing. I mean, the evidence is really really strong that it properly works. Yeah, it really does change your connection to like your own will. Yeah. And you do things, but you just don't know that you're doing them. It feels like you're being controlled A you're sort of complicit. you're sort of playing along, nonetheless. So the sort of best understanding of it is that it's like a focused state of attention, essentially. It's like you kind of reduce your peripheral awareness. you kind of heighten responsiveness to suggestion. Yeah. It's like the opposite multitasking, essentially. Oh, interesting, yeah, that's a good way to look at it. But you see this, you know, you can hypnotize people and put them in brain scans and you can see that they have you know reduced activity in certain parts of their brain and then increased activity in other parts of their brain.'s sort of more communication between the brain's planner, as it were, the prefrontal cortex and the part that tracks what's going on inside of your body, which you know might be one of the reasons why it's so effective for pain control, which it is. Whatever it's doing is really fundamental to the concept the experience of consciousness because you know, they found that you cannot hypnotize people to do things they wouldn't normally do. There's a wonderful study where they they took like actual acid And they demonstrated to people who were not hypnotized that this will hurt someone if this splashes on them And Th then they hypnotized the people, did a magic switcheroo and gave them just water And then they said, when I say snap my fingers, you will throw this asset all over this researcher they wouldn't do it If they had done it, no one would have been hurt because it was water. Yeah, but significantly Even though the hypnotized person felt that they had no sense of will over their actions, some deeper part of them still did and was like, no, I don't want to do that I remember you saying, I think probably off camera, off microphone once, that you thought that consciousness was essentially our own body's ability to have a veto on our Yeah behavior. Yeah. I really like that idea. And you lose that veto power when you're hypnotized. Right Right. You cannot say no to your unconscious. Yourre unconscious, or I think nonconscious is a better word to use. It still can say no to stuff. It still will refuse to harm others, for example. Yeah You don't feel like you vetoed that instruction By the way, about fifteen percent of people are highly hypnotizable. Okay. And about the same on the other end, about fifteen percent of people are unhypnotizable. And then everyone else in the middle is like moderately responsible. Okay. Responsible? resesponsive. Responsive, suggestable. Suggestible I mean, they do say that it sort of works better on people who have better imaginations that it's kind of a compliment to sure get yourself in this state. Sure. I did try it for childbirth actually. Okay What to lessen the pain? Yeah, so hypnbirthing, it's called It's called what? Hypnobirthing. Hypnbirththing. Yeah. So you do it essentially to yourself, you practice it Yeah for ages and ages before. And I definitely think that it would help to calm yourself, right It sort of help you to get yourself into a much better mental state of mind Because the thing is when it comes to pain, especially, pain is not this subjective fact Much of pain is actually constructed within your own mind. Right There are really extensive experiments on this where you subject an individual to a sort of quantified amount of pain, right? like a particular needle pressing at a particular point and a particular strength over and over again and then change the environment that they find themselves in, change the mental state that they're in. And their experience of it completely changes Yeah. So I mean I think that there was free analgesia as it were to tap into by, you know, harnessing the power of the mind. So did it work? Yeah, kind of. It definitely Yes, I would do it again. Okay. I definitely wouldn't say, oh yeah, it's a completely painfree experience. No It's like an earthquake in my soul. Yeah. But but all the same, all the same I would definitely do it again, yeah. Especially when you're doing something that has no side effects, right? There is almost no medical interventions that have zero side effects Well I've never met someone who was like I hypnotized myself too much and now I can't walk, right? Like doesn't. But altered states like that I would need to learn so much more about because they are so important Yeah. Automatic writing is another one. And the thing is I can't get myself to do a lot of this. Even under Ayahuasa, I couldn't let go Um, but Ouiji board too is one of these like people kind of get into a state where they disconnect actions from their sense of will. Absolutely love that you just dropped in, dropped in that you were on IO OSa once. doyuring that conversation Okay, last question. This is from Caden. Is nothing a thing? Ah is nothing a thing. I'd love to hear what you think about this too. I mean, I think that the word causes a lot of confusion because you've got like, Tw types of nothing. You've got nothing, the pronoun, which refers to No thing For example, in the sentence Nothing is better than God. Okay, I'm saying there is not a thing that is better than God. But then there's the reified nothing where you treat it like its own noun in the sentence like, well, look, a ham sandwich is better than nothing. Now we know those two uses of nothing are different. because if nothing is better than God. so nothing is better than God and a ham sandwich is better than nothing, then a ham sandwich is better than God. Right. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's no thing better than God. And a ham sandwich is better than the set, a set that's empty which is a reified, a made into a thing thing. It's the difference of defining something as the absence of something and the absence itself. Right. But that conceptual leap from no things to What if we called no things? Nothinghm can start building and having notothing, but also the container I've put it in. and then I can have a different container of nothing and suddenly you're constructing numbers. nothing. I think that's the Ven Newman ye, set theoretical way of constructing all of the cardinals. All of the numbers above. Yeah. Hey, look, we did three parts on infinity. You think you're getting away with the us talk about zeroos, that it's one part of a question and one part of a field. No it's absolutely not. No. We're coming back to that. I think though in the short answer is no thing is obviously a thing because it's defined in relation to the absence of a thing. but nothing As in sort of the absence of anything, the absence itself, I think it is only hypothetical. I think you can't ever actually have it Aree I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. In the same way as I think circles hypothes. Yeah, we can imagine a circle. We can imagine nothing, but there will never be a circle. There's no perfect circle. No perfect circle and there's no complete nothing. Yeah maybe no infinity that maybe nothing, maybe nothing is real. Maybe nothing is real. Maybe I'm not sure. Maybe there'sbe maybe there's no zero and there's no infinity. and there's also no seven. Ryan Reynolds here from MidMobile, with a message for everyone paying Big wireless way too much. Please for the love of everything good in this world, stop You can get preremium wireless for just fifteen dollars a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile d. com slash switch