Final Thoughts and Takeaways

The reewatchables is brought to by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find higher learning And Midnight boys. donon't forget it. And Bing her tail gate. goingo crazy right now It goinges crazy. Yeah, man.. Jeff Kessler coming on. Keff Kessler was nuts. We're having so much fun. We talked about Stacy Dash and Ben Carson on the last episode. Yeah CR Yeah the watch And then you're doing beautiful pot on Adam Friedlan's Castley. Yeah and talk to Thrones. Pop on big picture and talk to Thrones. Yeah Still drones, sameame show or backward how twelve hundred. Yeah, we're moving slightly forward. yeah Viking a? It is the Viking area. It's the Norwegian national team. Interesting. Earling Hollands showing up. Yeah Um We're going do a movie called Ali directed by Michael Mann, who is about to take, I think the lead in the director rankings or at least h as he should be our guy. Michael Man, Allli is next This episode is brought to you by Pure Michigan. In Grand Rapids, every moment feels like a scene worth replaying, every riverside stroll, every slow afternoon sipping small batch brews, every guitar rift drifting out of the city's brand new amphitheater This is a place where everything feels cinematic Like you've stepped into a highlight reel that's yours to explore Linkn as the number one city on the rise from LinkedIn. Grand Rapids invites you to find a rhythm all your own season after season. Pure Michigan Find your season at experperienceGR d. com For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tromphia offers self injection or intravenous infusion from the start Trimmphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self inject trmphia, proper training is required Trmphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease, and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection flu like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tmphia today. Call one eight hundred five two six seven seven three six to learn more. or visit Tmpharadio d. com All right guys Ali It a movie that we all love that's super flawed and we all love it anyway. and it came out twenty five years ago, this fall Starring Will Smith directed by our guy Michael Man, spports biopics So there's the picks about the guys that weren't Super duper famous Cinderella manan Budy. Reijing Bowl Lomato was famous, but not famous, famous King Richards, sea Biscuit, seecretariat Sare it's a fire, rush Really good one first back row. Then you have like the Itania, the rookie blindside those types if the Disney ones, like forty two and Race and radio bigiggest athletes I think they've ever tried to do this with are Pfontaine and Ali Right where there was like, The myth around the person almost made it like, Ah, you can't do a movie about them. They're too famous And they do this with Ali and Mostly works Right I It's the closest thing that they'll ever happen. We're never gonna do better than this. Yes. Yes. Yeah. The prefontaine thing was interesting because they released two prefontaine movies within like two years of each other. Yeah. Yeah. The better one was without Limits, which is a really great movie. G good movie. Yeah, really good movie.. So it's Cb's Lto right? Yeah. C credb one is great. The let one is one's watching book thered books great Neither of them are bad U but actually didn't know who Steve Prifontaine was before that movie came out Whereas Ali was the most famous right to the twentieth century, whichich hangs over the movie. Ali had his own biopic obviously that he had starred in. And then a couple of years before this movie came out when where Kings comes out and which was like this really penetrating look into Oi versus Foreman and that heighten my expectations for this movie, I think. I think a lot I think that documentary affected a lot of people the way they went to the movie. I think that's the best sports documentary I ever made. Really? I do. No hoop dreams. Hoop dreams is aral who dreams for degree difficulty, yes. Yeah. When we were kings. Perfect sports documentary. Do another time it pass. Would you put last dance in there I mean, lastast dancew is ten episodes. Sure. So that's almost like a docum ser. I don't think that could be a documentary. When we were Kings is just like If you want to I mean, this is kind of what this movie tries to do too. If you want to kind of capture how charismatic, lovable, fascinating Galvanizing Alias. That probably does the best job. I think the film actually follows documentary structure in some ways. Obviously, it follows documentary sensibility style wise manan making all these efforts to really recreate moments. and yeah, it's completely stylized the way all Michael Man stuff is, but like He's out there with lipstick cameras, you know, I mean, like in the middle of the night shooting digitally with Will Smith running through neighborhoods. You know what I mean? So it's like it's as real as it can get, but it feels almost like a dock and it's narrative style in that they They have so much to cover that they're just like we're going to do away with the like the arc of a character in a lot of ways and just show these crucial moments, but it makes sense how they do it. I agree with what you said. where they're just like, this is about him winning the title, losing it, getting it back. Yes, right They didn't try to do that. It's about his political awakening, which I think it's about those ten years and then they try to go and all this other stuff that the problem I had is this eer should have been And I love this movie and I've watched it a bunch of times but it's flawed I see there could have been an hour forty five T hours. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Be you're bringing in all of his female relationships We're bringing in Islam in a real way and Malcolm X and all of these other themes that I think you need But it's also like we I mean, this is the weakest link of the movie. We just move three years. We go from nineteen seventy one to nineteen seventy four. Yeah. We're like painstakingly going through all these things and all of a sudden, it's like I mean, he had thirteen fights during during that stretch. Yeah. he got his jaw broken by Norton all these things happen and they just kind of skip ahead. I think that there's a The Ebert will get to Robert Roger Ebert on this, but In his review of the movie I think is the thing that bothered people the most about the film Um is that this movie treats Muhammad Ali in a way that he's not remembered culturally And well way more serious and reflective Right And like when you when you read Roger Eberts's review What he essentially says is that like Ali was fun I hung out with Ali and Ali was quippy and Ali was like quick and he was that And when we talk about Muhammed Ali, even when people talk about, you know, all the political trials that he went through in his life. They talk about him in this way that he could put a smile on it He did it all with this tremendous flare and twinkle in his eye, a twinkle in his eye This movie kind of explores being part performance I do not think that people responded to that very well Like there's a version of Ali and like even like somebody like Martin Luther King Jr. you get a Santa Claus version of Martin Luther King Jr. when he's talked about historically. But if you ever really dug into his life, it was very stressful, anxiety ridden Yeah in a lot of ways, pain One of the fascinating aspects of guys srobably only like half a dozen that I can think of where it's like Tiger, Jordan, Ali, these people who wind up becoming almost like some icon doesn't even feel like enough of a word for them is that The relationship you have to them as like a younger person or as like a fan changes once you find out more about the context of what made them who they are. So it's like my understanding of Jordan is like He's the best basketball player in the world. He's the most famous athlete in the world Uh, he's in in the cartoons. he's selling sneakers like he's delightful. And now my attitude about him is like almost like a tragedy where he's tortured by competitiveness and like what happened to his father and throughout his life, is just like carrying around this millstone of of a chip on his shoulder about every single slight he's ever experienced So that these guys can contain multitudes. and I just think manan decided In some ways, like it would have been better if he had called the movie like the political awakening of Muhammad Ali or something like that. Like, you know that would not have I have some stuff about that for later. He basically said he thinks it's a movie about defiance. Yeah You can. And So Ai's my favorite athlete ever. I mean, like for real, like I loved him When I was five years old, six years old, I started watching him on Wide Road of Sorts because he was on all the time And that was like Basically his weekly window and he would just go on when we needed to have fights There there was a joy and a curiosity and like a fun about him that even as you were like from Boston, you were like, o I just that's a You turn on. Sh. You're like, wow, dad, look, you talk red I would see black people on don't do it. I know No, but the thing is you wouldn't know when he was going to be on Wild Rad or sports So you would go you would turn it on on Saturday or you know, it was usually Saturday, sometimes I' have special shows, but it' would be like I hope Ill lose on And then he would come on and it wasn't even like He didn't have a fight. He would just come on to make fun of Jim McKay or how. But he had And that's what I think when we were King's captures, like you just see him moving through Zayir and he's He's just so curious and loves it. He just wants to connect with everybody I don't think the movie totally captured it. There's one specific saying that I will never forget. I'm pretty sure it's from when we were Kings They do it in this movie. They recreate it. from that documentary and maybe our earlier documary documentary, but when Ali is flying to Africa. And he sees a cockpit Right with the pleets. recreat it That's in the dock in the Documentary Ali is Beaming with pride. Like he's beaming with pride and he's using that to teach And what makes Muhammad Ali who he is as a speaker and as a personality comes through approximated in this And it just doesn't quite feel the same Yeah. and but I appreciate the movie for going for it The movie is trying to show you just how small and big Ali's world was at the. That's I think it's a win because I think this could have gone badly in so many ways. That quality we're talking about, Ali The only person I've seen in real life who has it is Charles Barkley. Like I've watched him do it. and he's like that all the time. It doesn't matter what situation he is. He's genuinely curious. He connects with people He's he's funny. just enjoys life and enjoys intersecting with everybody. And everybody said that's what Ali was like Like it didn't matter where he was. And the movie hits it a couple times. Like they have that scene when he goes to meet Joe Morton at the diner. And then he leaves and he goes outside and he runs into like everybody Yeah and he starts like like I'm going to come see you next fight. Yeah He's like, you better get there early. Yeah. So so it taps into it, but I feel like Michael Mann's interpretation of Ali was just kind of darker than how I think I L. So it depends on how you want to read the movie. Do you want to read the movie as a sports Uh biopic where you know, you're evaluating it on its rendition of real life events Do you want to read the movie as a Will Smith movie, which is a movie star vehicle and as an act of him immersing himself in this character and transforming his body Do you want to read it as a Michael Mann movie And if you read it as it fan movie The closest partner it has and many people have commented on this is not like an original thought by me, but The closest partner it has is the insider. And it which he had just made those right before. And it is about a guy being subsumed by things that no matter how big he is are larger than him And it's about the government and religion and all these institutions tryrying to suppress him weighing down on him, trying to hold him back in his evolution as a human being That's what's interesting to man about this movie. You know what I mean? Like And you can see from like honestly what is maybe Best twenty minutes that man's ever put together and maybe I put it up against almost any other filmmakers twenty minutes is the opening twenty minutes of this movie areking the reason it's reatchable. Symphony. It covers like eighteen different aspects of American life and does so in a way where your head is spinning around by the time He It's almost like that's why he wanted to make the movie and then he tried to figure out the rest. Really when you watch the open you start to think you're thinking is this going to be one of the best movies Wh is one of be going to be one the way best I still feel that way in twenty twenty six watch watch. Sam Cook is going. Ollie is going. Things are happening. Malcolm X is Malcolm X is speaking It's moving. you're like going backwards on a bus and there's that matil and now we're going forward again. Right You're like, what the hell is going on and the energy of that he almost sets the movie up with that energy and then he slows it way down. I mean, it's unsustainable you could do it, right? Yeah He then he he says, I want to get into like the Finer points. I want the viscera of Ali all over me, but I'll say this though I think this movie is also him Talking about man, I mean, talking about what he believes Ali was Like he's It's like a theory. Right. It's a theory because if you look at Muhammad Ali and just this extraordinary life but somebody that popped up every time you saw them I feel like for a lot of people and I brought it up, I said it before and you kind of almost reiterated it when you were just talking, they don't want to believe that Muhammad Ali wasn't like that They don't want to believe that he wasn't on all the time. They don't want to believe that the government and his family, his own personal Pccadillos, like whether or not he could be a good they don't want to believe that stuff weighed on him because it kind of ruins their fairy tale about him. And Man posits that the actual man is actually more interesting than the fairy tale. I mean, you even could have gone like what you said about Jordan? Ollie I probably read I've read every Ali book, every sports illustrated, I've seen every documentary, every book, like name it. I've consumed it because I loveved Ali Ali was like a pretty mean spirited guy sometimes. Like the shit he did to Fraasier. brutal and U That was one of those things because I loved Ali and as I got older, Mark Cram wrote a great book about it called Ghost of Mana And it's just like what we did to Frasier was fucked up You know, The fact that Frasier was helping him and the fact that they had a and they he tried to present he tried to Push Frasier as he's the your're he's the uncle Tom I'm on this side. he's on that side. He's corporated R. Fraasier was like Fraasier was like, dude, I was I' I'm trying canan you help Yeah. Fraas hated his guts to the bitter end.. Like that's what led to Manila Frasier's like, we're fighting to the death now. I hate you this much. Like both neither of us will ever be the same after this fight because of what you've done for me the last to me the last five years But Ali was like a little like Jordan, like Prety could really get me like yeah, and leftess like a left like wreckage in his life. Like the stuff he did to Floyd Patterson and Cleveland Williams and and then Tarrell, which the movie hits where he's so mad that they don't say his name. Like he he tortured Floyd Patterson. He keeps Floyd Patterson up for like an extra four rounds. So he can like keep beating the shit out of them as an aside I don't know you guys' version of this would be I'll just ask, what is athlete is in the prime of who they are Unbeatable, the best they've ever been It just disappearing for you. No, no, no, not disappearing J just in any sport for you. L if you wanted to show athletic dominance and excellence, what would you show I would show Ali against Cleveland Williams. Bar none is not even close A lethal two hundred and fifteen pound killing machine. The way he breaks him down if you that that's fine. Cvel Williams was good. site is on YouTube. Yeah. watchatch watch him you're asking for like a single game.ing a single game been like Jordan against the n three sons. Right. like But if you watch he comes out first half of the first the half in the first round, feels him out and then he's got I got him and he just starts this Beautiful syyphy of destruction. Yeah, there's there's it's not for me, it's it's hard for me to pick like individual games. There's like swaths of Bo Jackson or Michael Vick and especially Bonds. Right whereere you're like, that's go. This is going out. like it doesn't matter. And you know, that's Bonds' mentality at that point where he was like There's just nothing you can do to beat me. R a second half Super Bowl Falcons? No, come no come on. five straight touchdown draves all the two points. Yeah Yeah, but I mean, Ollies is the best heavyweight ever. I would put the Cleveland Williams fight, give me every other heavywight he's winning. There's nobodyody There's no one at that wayight, you can put in the ring with him and they're going to beat them. The the most charismatic athlete we've ever had He was in the running for most handsome. I mean, Ali was beautiful. Ebody everybody loved him. He was everyone was attracted to him.. He's probably the richest, wouldould you say he is the richest subject for sports writing ever to spite heat He seduced all those sports writers like sights in the movie, right? He would hang out with all of them, especially when they were in Africa because Forma got hurt And Ollie had like an extra six weeks with all those guys like Norman Mailers down there or maybe he was a Manila. one of the the two times when he was in locations like that spent real time with them and they would write the most flattered likeike they fucking loved him. Dick Sapp. Now these people. Um, he just knew how to play the game. But it goes back to the Barley thing I mentioned, like he genuinely was like that. He liked Be around whoever. you didn't like being alone. That's why some of the stuff in this movie, I'm like, I just I feel like Holly was around people more. The thing is that he's constantly around people in this movie. Well there's times when he's like alone and so that I think if he was alone, there was probably a woman in there. Like not not to cutch your wisdom CR, but like there's I think one of the constant themes in this movie is that he is suffocated He can't do any of. Well he's always got a photographer. He's always got a spiritual guide. He's always got a wife of orl Danny' seing his b. Diny and all of these people's problems, he's so singular in his charisma and his capability that All of these people are like, Champ, help me. Champ, what are we going to do 's going on. Well, hes he's probably the all time most exploited celebrity we've had likeike in terms of entourage, in terms of the nation of Islam just taking most of his purse, ple wives, like just You know, he was broke by the time it was like nineteen seventy nine, he had no money left. Yeah. people just stealing from him left and right. I tried to find a bunch of interviews. what I was going to say is I tried to find a bunch of interviews with Man about it and he's obviously like so so ariculate about his own. There was one great one, the deadline Hollywood one. I haven't found him address this necessarily But I really wonder whether like half of him wanted to make a Malcolm X movie Be the first half of this movie is a Malcolm X movie. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's about like Ali being enthralled to this guy being pulled away from him by the nation of Islam. It's its own movie and it's f this is the same thing happened to me on the rewatch that happened to me when I saw it the first time. It's basically every time I watch this movie, I started. I'm like, holy shit, this is the best movie I' ever seen Huh, this is Malcolm X movie. And then like I'm so disoriented that the second half of the film kind of like slips away a little bit until Za year And then the second time I watch it, if I go back and restart the film, I'm like, oh, this is really, really, really good. This is awesome because once you know the rhythm of it and know where it's going to go and know what it leaves out and know what it accentuates It feels just a little bit more like in the pocket. You know what I mean? The first watches with this' tough. You're like you know what the movie doesn't do which the Malcolm X character does So a lot of times when you watch films that are set in this like racial racial reckoning period of the sixties They give you a lot of like news clipping, stock footage. Hold your hand. They give you fire hoses and they give you dogs and they give you look at the people march. Here's George Wallace This movie sets all that up through the character of Malcolm X. Y. It's like Malcolm X who talks about the black churches and the four little girls. is Malcolm X, who you see like, I am Black America's vengeance. I am the pain. You see that in him. And then you see Cashus Clay at that point, learning about it and connecting to it through him since the movie doesn't seem concerned with doing all of the other tropes that other movies do. they put it all into a character And that performance is phenomenal Yeah. by Mario Van Peles. I text to you guys the other day. I always forget like how great he is. This movie in the first half of this film, that performance, a lot of it exists in the shadow of Malcolm X. whichich happens nine years previous, right I then you get into the whole like at one point Spiike' attached to this film. Yeah you know, at various points Oliver Stone is and wants Denzel to be in it like to be Ali. I mean, it is a fascinating text for that decade of filmmaking and those filmmakers in thatense That scene when when they're in Africa and he's excited to see Malcolm and then slowly realizes he's got to get away from it It's so and The The way B Boy Book plays that. Yeah I looking off and not sure whether you should take a picture of it or not. He's like, yo, that's like he go, yo, that's my man. That's our guy. Yeah. like you see them and then you know that they in the movie at least that they won't see each other again. and Ali thinkinks it. D I read this right? Iave thinkinks it before he says it. Yes. Oh ye go he goes he's standing there he's with his friend We never get to hear the inner monologue of Muhammad Ali because we think that his talent is so effervescent that it just flows out of him like gifted by God. But he's standing in front. of his incredible historical figure that's been his friend and he thinks You shouldn't have done the heap builds up the courage to say it And then M that Makes' faces just drains, man. They were really close. Like I think they started hanging out in ' sixty two And then when he started feuding with Elijah Muhammed, it was about adultery stuff and became the brereaking point And then Well Ghead, I like this Tell us more about the nation building ills hills, the honorable billsesest would be it's just an amazing final act for used to convert to the next one. here I'd be William X, not Bill X I know, but the movie makes it seem they had a conflict, but they don't really explain what the conflict was about and it was about Malcolm X, who was like the guy underneath Ellijah Muhammed who didn't like some of the he felt he was a hypocrite. R. But it had a lot to do with the adultery stuff. H a lot to do with and a whole bunch of other stuff. bunch of that like involved and the government was involved in driving away That actually the government stuff is the most It's not the most, but like it's an interesting ick and it almost suggests a wider canvas he wanted to work with. But man, when you get the Ted Levine scene with Leon when he's like Yeah, and we want to know about this guy. Well I want to ask Craig about that because This movie so comes out in zero one when everybody knows everything about Ali and Michael Man makes the movie assuming. Oh, you know you I don't need to go into this because you know this, right? It's like when when uh M okay d And he has and just all theses looking out, he's on the roof. Yeah. And there's just and he's like, I don't need to show you like the three minutes of what happened in America because you already know this. And there's we to see the riots, like we see nobody doesn't quick. Like he gets in and out because he's like, oh, I assume you know this. I assume you know this But you I mean, you saw this movie for the first time, right? Could you follow all the stuff that happened or were you confused? I did feel like there were moments where I was a little confused and I don't think this movie holds your hand into. No, it's it's does one it's it's weird that it starts with a declaration of what day the movie starts. And then we never seeother never does a timestamp because felt like, I don't know what year I'm in. I don't know where I am. It helps to like basically have his Wikipedia page open and be going to these fights. and as you find out, like, o okay, so I had that in Woodsage the worst for this. I actually don't know why he didn't put dates in kind of root you in where we were and ye it just seemed like a miss. Maybe that Michael Mann's like, I'm too good of a director to do that. But I really think it would help. I think More than anything, the reason why it's such a big swing is a biopit And Ray kind of follows this same tyype of basic. Yeah Um He really wants it to be about the characters He tries to tell the story of Muhammad Ali's life. and not necessarily a recounting of Mohammed. So it's like his discovery Islam, his discovery through women like like who he should end up being with his discovery to what's important to him and he doesn't need the title to be who he is. Almost every single scene where something significant happens You can leave the scene as if the scene is asking you, what if it were you Like what if it were you and you and you had found this new religion or movement that you were into, but it went against what your father wanted. What if you fell in love with the woman and she didn't conform to what it was this name like it every and you take this huge huge cultural figure and you just make him a guy. Yeah And then there are some ideas that are so huge that man's trying to illustrate very quickly. So like young Cash is seeing blonde hai, blue eye Jesus that his father is painting is got to do so much work for like this kid and the little kid That's a little kid from the wire, right?es. Yeah doing such an amazing job of like I kind of like what the fuck is this? And then that is why like You know, however many years later he's in this headspace where he's open to converting. So man said There's the team of the movie it's defiance. We defied that along with every expectation about him goes through a whole bunch of stuff about When he's going to make himself his heavyweight championship of the world, he's going to be a motivational personification of something totally different a black man in his own culture with his own pride And then That was what I think He's trying to do it the ten years Here's here's the climate Ali walked into Here was his motivation, Here's where he wanted to end up. and then everything culminates in Africa, which is why The running scene is so long in Zayir Yeah Be I think Mike that's the one time Michael Mann's doing some handholding He's like, I really want you to understand this. running thing What a's really having had this is his epiphany U Michael Ban last of the Moicans The insider Ali. This is the imperial placeace. Jeez. This is this is him like at the center of everything and all the big major The major movie stars, the great actors are like lining up. Run it off again Last Moicans The insider Alie. I don't know. I'm that's that's ninety two to a one. It's just like The variety of the movies. Yeah I don't know if it gets much better than that. It's a pretty good four in a row that have nothing to do in common, but then there's common threads in each one He I feel like I wrote this when I did my review of this movie a long time ago that I think he felt like if I pull this off, this will be my legacy one. I've done some really good shit. I'm one of the best directors in the world this is the hardest IP to pull off. I'm going to try this. I'm going to go for it It's also like I think twenty five years later, I don't think a white guy's directing this I on It was kind of controversial then. It was controversial No one. I think now it's Rred How did you feel about that, by the way? I've always wondered What a movie that was a little bit more culturally at home would feel like What a black and look, we have not stopped making Muhammad Ali stories. like he pops up in all kinds of different stuff we see all the time. but like I did wantonder that, but I'm going to be real with you, man Mbe man compensated or overcompensated. The beginning of this movie is very black Like it is it is very like maybe he was trying to do a little bit too much. you know, like when you when you and your homeboys are like you got white homeboy y'all listening to a tribe called quest and he goes, Yeahah, man, these guys, they really influence Kanye and you like Shut up bitch Like should have said that to. Yeah it's like we I know you ain't got to perform, ' just enjoy the music. So but And So the version of that in this is like and be like, what if we also went to the Apollo the n I'd sample So he's like, okay, well, I'll show you guys. like I can make I can make a movie with these people as well To me, it feels authentic though. like that kind of grounds the movie. I think that's one of the best sports movie scenes ever. And it's one of the best scenes of Michael Mann's career, if not the best one. We'll talk about it when we do reatchables Yeah, so he's got that and then you have Will Smith He's only taken two swings in his career. It's this six degrees of separation. Other than that, every choice was safe. This one, he knows He even said, u put in air I guess from later I'll find it. But he's thirty three years old. And he's basically like, this is it. Like, I'm in the prime of my career. I got I got to do this. Yes is This is my moment spends a year learning how to box and talk like Ali Basically takes two years to make this movie because he wants it to be perfect And also like Ali approved them Alie Alie had the rights to this and You know, wasn't going to do it unless he felt good about the leaded person. Yeah Um He's as close as you're going to get to an actor being Al, but you're just not don't see how somebody becomes Ali. He does the best job. There's scenes where he comes alive as Ali. But it always feels like Will Smith Yes I never I never forget. I never my Iingll basically My glowery planant Myowery. There are are moments of real beauty. I think all of the physicality of his performance is amazing. The boxing, the running The boxings excellent H rock H like holding court or being in like at a press conference, the intimate scenes, the scenes of the women the scenes of his really just conversion I feel like I'm watching historical reenactment kind of. which is the usually the problem with biopil. Yeah. My hottest take is that this is one of the strongest pererformces in a biopith whenever Will is not talking. And I know that that feels Silly like that almost can't be a thing there's so much there's so much action happening. there's so much drama happening and that a lot of times in order for like his reaction to Malcolm X in that scene in just the one line. What he's under when he sees Michael Michelle for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, hey All he nails All of that Every single thing, every way, everything that when he When they don't call his name and he decides he's not going to be inducted All of that, But when he starts trying to do the Ali voice's imp possible you can't do that. Yeah. That's not going to happen and that's kind of when maybe you lose a little bit. And it's weird because there are so many figures around him that are so iconic and I can't help but feel Michael T. Williamson is doing Don King. I'm like, this is fucking awesome. O That one scene when he does the Don King in the outside when he tells him Fma got hurt Yeah He becomes Dn Kank for like seventy five seconds.. not only but also like Ron Silver and Jamie Fox all of these guys guys Coseell you feel like you're in the middle of it. Michael T. Williamson kind of like inhabits the energy of Don King. Like Don King feels like a little fucking sleazy, a little fucking like dangerous. Like it's a really underated Holly Some people said was super naive at all times, but then other people would say had P pretty good sense. Yeah So he's sniffed out the Don King thing pretty early We'll talk about all those actors in a second. Craig, who is Who's Ali now This is the most beloved celebrity we had I would say the entire nineteen seventies and eighties I think people loved him the most. You guys could probably tell me what year or what kind of era that it flipps, but boxing just culturally expired. and I have no relationship to boxing other than like you think that there's a celebrity though, anybody? in boxing oring in all sports? in anything Well, it's hard for me to even know how you felt about Ali because I wasn't there and I don't really get it So I try think like who who is that for you big the biggest athlete ofest approval rating who highest approval rating. No Wh's the biggest athlete? I mean probably Tom Brady or LeBron. which just's nowhere close to the significance. Yeah And LeBron James is a massive, huge guy who has political is just nowhere near. Nowhere near the importance. There's no way There's's there's no way it's imp. I've only seen it Alllie, which I caught in the tail end as a little kid growing up into it Jordan And then Tiger got close. He didn't have the person No, I think it's almost more common for us now to experience that kind of thing or at least in our lifetimes, like on a local level. like I would say Iverson in Philly for a couple of years had like this magic to him and is larger than life a lot of people also didn't like him. I know, which would put some more Turi in the sixties But he was not I mean, we're talking about like a global like, if this dude walked into a restaurant in China, people would be like, that's fucking Muhammad Ali. You know what I mean? Also, it's sometimes unfair when we do this because like The sixties are the adolescents of America. Yeah and of mass culture. Right of mass of mass culture, of America. like this is when We're like, okay It seems like we're going through the again. Is this thing going to work or we're going to figure out a way around this and the people who embody that They live as symbols for that forever. And we're just in a different spot now. Jordan is probably guy for my direct generation. H his grand contribution is his ability to be liked. and sneakers That would have been amazing if you were like, it's Mr. Beast I like Taylor Swift. I don't. I like mister Bat too. Well I didn't know you. The thing that pushed Allli over the top for everybody was that he actually sacrificed something That's what I think when you're sacrificing your own all the not just money, but this part of his prime, all these different things. That's then you're at another level. Well, I do think now There's a bit of like sanitation to the most famous people in the world now Yeah There's nobody putting themselves out there like Momma. Yeah, what would Al lead be like in social media era? I know I call this phone It's like, I don't He's got a personal photographer flying sur like following around. He knows he's important. He's going on wide world of sports. He's got sports writers like in his coterie like He is documenting himself in real time. It was never overexposed. Okay I don't think. Well it was might have been impossible. It might have been impossible in the seventies to be overexposed Also in many ways. and the Jordan thing I was talking about, you actually doubled down on it when you said the sneakers. Jordan kind of invents that type of sneaker culture. But at the same time, Jordan's main thing is that like he was beloved as a pitchman and that that became what people wanted to be. before Jordan the actual archityect arrchetype for the modern athlete was Muhammad Ali Yeah. that's that's who people wanted to be. Jordan actually of changed that. Jordan didn't want to have any type of political stance. He didn't want to have any type of counter cultural significance or relevance. He just wanted to be the guy that had the number one approval rating everywhere. So whenateever he told you to buy you in but. were Also super handsome my golly suuper handsome. I gave for Wilsmith. I'm giving him the Peter North Award for most effort put in a movie. Okay. You put on thirty five pounds. Youet to try to figure out Olly's weird Louisville accent, which I think is like almost impossible ryon It's like a draw draw combined with There's a sing song in this to it Um I don't know.s I've never heard anybody do it one hundred percent successfully. voice It's almost like when people try to do Bercley, likeike you just can't do it. It's like a one on one voice. R We'll take a break. There's a couple other things to discuss and do the categories This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter A lot of times it feels like there is just not enough time in the day, especially when you get older Time speeds up. I'm telling you, it's the thing I've noticed Uh I try to I try to make my day slow down, I do some multitasking Um tryry to get the same amount of sleep every day. Everybody's got some tricks. As you get older, you figure out more and more tricks to try to tryry to schedule your time better. 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And some men may feel reluctant to bring it up But it's more common than you'd think PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis, causing a curve or a bump during an erection that for some men, may lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including nons surgical treatment Visit talkaboutpD. com So One thing Michael Man said about Ali, he said he represented the enormous possibility cooetics of actual self determination had to define not just the establishment, not just white America not just people who are fear militancy But also the NACP, Joe Lewis, you name it Everybody who was centrist and had an interest in maintaining the status quo Now he says this in twenty seventeen. He says We are still talking identity politics in twenty seventeen. Try and understanding that perspective in nineteen sixty four. This is the point. Jamie Fox. Yeah So He was in that any Givid Sunday as Willie Beameman. It's the first time we're like, Oh, Jamie can act. This is pretty good. He's unbelievable in this. And I remember one of my big takeaways seeing this in the theater was like F, Jamie Fox is a great actor. I had no idea. Yeah There's an interesting dynamic air van where He's kind of the Tom Brady six round pick to Will Smith Pyton Manning of like Oh, you're just supposed to be over here. It's Will Smith time And nobody sees the Jamie Fox thing really coming y it And who wins the Oscar first? Jamie Fox. Yeah. there's actually a Jamie Fox was hosting something It might have been the MTV awwards or something like that. to wear Will was still in the era of unveiling his body I went beforefore the movie came out, we looked as God damn will didn got swoll And I remember Jamie comes over to say on this whatever bit they're doing on stage. Jamie comes over and like say, what's up to Will And W takes off his jack and everybody's like, oh my God, it's Will Smith. And then he gives his jacket to Jamie Fox And then Jamie Fox kind of like slinks away. He plays it up. you know, Will's kind of the star. He's kind of the co star and everything like that. The whole Ieague thing is happening In two years, legitimately that changed It didn't change to where Jamie Fox ever usurped W as a star. I don't think that that quite happened. but I think You think that happened? I don't. I think It was inconceivable that he would be even be in the conversation but he caught and then he was because like yes, like collateral the collateral Ray year is what? two thousand four? In two thousands. Yeahah. by that point Everybody's in awe of Jamie and everything that he could do. He was also more, I think, liked in the Hollywood range because Smith. Well, Will Smith at that point was like he was married. He was he was just a major star. Jamie was accessible. Oh, Jamie was at the, you know, partying. was come on late night show. I think they were they I think they had two different parts of Hollywood. I think Jamie's Hollywood was a little bit more rap hat. Will's Hollywood was a little bit more corporate. Yes. and we it was probably a little rapat. But and I think that they kind of managed their careers at a certain point where it was like Fox is still like I want to do TV. I want to host stuff. I want to do music, comedy. Yeah. like I want to be in everything and Smith's running his career esssentially on the Tom Cruise of like J you do this, it has to hit. you has to count. Jamie Busted everybody's ass. They did like Jamie is legitimately one of the most talented people like Sammy Davis Junior type shit that we've ever seen. He's great. And then as soon he's funny his fucking shit too. L Bund Dini Almost grezes the skids foray You see the same type of DNA in this performance, like the same type and then what he's out of there then. And then we have Van Pebles is Malcolm I think this is probably the best he's been in a movie like this, right? He had a good career, but I think I mean, can you imagine how fucking hard it must be to play Malcolm X after Denzelo after Denzel Not that far after Man, Mario Van Peeples. This a fucking genius. Like Mario Van Pebles is one of those guys when you go back and look at the totality of things that Mario Van Pebles has done and done them well. That is a fucking A plus creative man. New Jack City. Smart ofan Peoples. You know what I'm saying? like hereere's who else is in this movie. Jeffrey Wright is Howard Bingham. Gean Carlo Esposito Great in this movie. I like that there's only like one scene with him and JB Fox when they're drinking and I wasm like, I I can him find the water. Yeah. Ron Sover is Angela Dundy Joe Martin Chaunny Esker T the me briefly, Leon Barish Shabakca Henley and Bruce McCall even has a McGill Bruce McGuill, I wrote down Mc callall again. Bruce McGill. All of them are great. All of them are graduated. that guy's. Nona Gay, Michael Michelles. you talking about pretty Checkriguez Fy Vacheco Does he have a line? Does he talk? I think maybe in the director's cut he has a line? Yeah. And then John Boyd is Coso, which is another one shouldn't have worked Did you say Jada Well, we haven't even gotten to the laties Yeah. But John Voyid is Cosell who he gets nominated for an Oscar. That's like you can't who could play Howard Cosll? That's like doing an SNO sketch and he's really good. Yeah. and I think probably makes him a little more kind of a good hang than how Cosell was by all accounts. Well, it's the intimate moments between Ali and Cazell are the ones that really sell it when he's like doing the coffee and he's like, have some coffee with your sugar and then he's like they kid for you. They're coming for you U And then Nonaay, Jada Pinkett and Michael Michelle. I went to an Ali junket because I wrote a piece for page two. I got to spend ten minutes with Nona Gay. Yes. It was the best looking person I'd ever seen. up to that point impress It's a thing. It's impressed. It's really, really impressed. It it's a thing, man. That's a Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful woman Um First crypt was with Sony nineteen ninety two ended up at Columbia Pictures in ninety eight. Ron Howard Marry Senfield. Can I five seconds on this? Yeah It is worth noting that This script was like in development hell. This was like a almost ten years In the eighties they were talking about doing this. I think there was different guys attached. there's credits are, I think Gregory Howard as the story credit or some original screenplayed. And there's two other writers credited, then Eric Roth and Michael Mann also get a screenplayed credit. At various points this was going to be the childhood story of him up to forty. Like it was There's lots of different versions of this out there. 's it's kind of a miracle the movie hangs together as well as it does. Well, how about Ali with approval of everything? Yes, which never really works either And he has as and had at that point he was fading but' and they keep trying to do it And it never makes good. Basically everybody from you older is like That's not Ali You know what I mean? Like, you're going to have to voting all voting public is going to be pretty harsse with this. So Sikely want to do it was in negotiations and Will Smith really wanted Michael Manth to do it eresting Is it apocrypphse? Tro Smith told Spike Lee he was going to have to expand his boundaries if he wanted to direct this And I had that in my notes, didn't couldouldn't imagine him saying that to Spike Lee I gott to say like Malcolm's too important to this movie. I don't know how Spike could have directed it. I don't know if that I think it's too weird. It would have been the same film. It would not have been the same film. I think that there's a version of this I think that the Spike Lee movie, they're two vastly different movies vastly different movies. I think the Spike Lee movie might have had more cultural relevance. It might have been more it might have been thematically tighter in terms of what he was trying to say about Malcolm X E excuse me, Malcolm. So Ali Yeah. It would have been a smaller movie and will just like movies for everyone. And Spike doesnn't make movies for everyone and probably wanted to work with Michael Man too, who was Scorch it hot at the time. H you never worked with Spike was never was in the deal brereaker after this. What year's twenty fifth hour is thatzo two So we get that instead Yeah. I mean it likes I think that's a win for us for us.initely. Mbe Spike Lee would have liked to dfted the Ma Lee movie. But I will say this, it is interesting that Will Smith has never worked with Spike Ly. M of the guy guys. So the biggest black actor we've had since younger than Denzel. Right? probably the only person who didn't work with Spike Lee was Will Smith. Yeah. This is just an interesting thing. also D Jamie work with him? With Spike? I don't think so I don't think so. But it is worth noting also that Will was the first person I think he He turned down Django. And then Jamie does Jeno later because I think maybe those types of movies are like I can't do it. I don't do it I wrot he get in the g like, you know, after Earth or whatever the fuck that was, you know, like like you w I remember I S Grantland, I wrote a huge piece about this. Did you? Aout Will Smith the Will Smith careareer arrc in Rb. Oh Yes Smith Um the Django thing saying everything about his career decisions in the twenty first century basically It was too hot form It was He studied it. he was honestly like an advanced metrics guy him and his agents studied box office and the movies that made the most money and they were all like outer space big action and that was like he's just like, I just want to do those and never really wanted to experiment anything else so Jjango is like too much for her A Jamie stepped right in. I like. I mean, it's also the craziest thing about the slap is that's the dude who had the most like his his most carefully publicion and his career was so carefully managed. The the Crazy thing about the slap is that the slap might have been might have not been as efficient as it was if not for this movie Because we'll have to learn to right without tking. We'll have to learn how to throw punches and get his shit straight. So years later that slap came through and you couldn't get out the way of that bitch because it is movving I think CVD every Everyone' ate that muff up. Everyone's in a haze from COVID. I think the Fx I mean now the Willmith Chris Rock slap is the weirdest thing that's happened through this century. So twenty first century, that's my number one pick. So we he this thing that's happened. So listen. I watch it sometimes. I'm like, I can't believe this happened. So our movie and then he won an Oscar. won an Oscar. Our movie won the year before. Yeah, We're still in the haze, right? So that year, everyone that was involved in this is strrangers at an Oscar party. Yeah they act like they care about you for like two years after you they dump it. it's like, whatever. So everyone's at. I'm in New York doing hip hop homicides. I have worked all day, I've gone to sleep. I wake up if A million fucking text messages, but the first one is from Kaliga and it says Will Smith just punched Chris Rock in the face on stage live at the Oscars. Where are you I'm like, there's no way that happenens Some facsimile of that might have happened But there's no way that that happened. And when I looked up That's what the fuck happen. Will Smith walked on stage. at the Academy Awards And slapp the shit out of cra. Did it affect how you watched Oie I always feel like I have Will Smith. I always feel like I have a little Will Smith baggage now when I watch Will Smith movies because that slap was so weird. I have zero. It's in the back of my head. It's way down on the list of the most deplorable things people have done movies I still Itich just so weird. those guys No I'm just, I can't believe you and Chris Rock. Yeah're watching a interesteresting in me. L R. I still can't believe that happed. L Rel is the best on this L Rel goes Yeah, well shouldn't He goes, Yeah, we shouldn't they hit Chris. But I get it He's the funniest on that. It's just like, yeah, he lost hisself he went up he spat the guy. It happens Michael Man did a director's cut in twenty seventeen. Yeah. where he basically said I wasn totally happy with the finished product of this movie He said, with the hindsight of history I felt the drama didn't get all the way there because he made some tweaks It wasn't as strong as it should have been I don't think I change anything on a movie like heat, but here the proportion how it made you feel wasn't quite right And then he made his little tweak. So I'm sure he had to hand this in. It's like over one hundred and fifty minutes. It's yeah, it's two hours forty minutes. And I'm sure he's like, o man, there's so many things I like in this movie, but I can't Yeah, you can tell in the casting of like the film. likeike there's there's gott to be footage of It's probably more Angelo, Freddie and Bundini footage out there. Come on, Daddy? Yeah. It outside. Let's go, Daddy. Don't jump in one place. It's probably just more boxing period.ood That would have been sick. Oscar Nobes Will Smith nominated for Best Actor loses to Denz own training day. We're good with that I that works. Yeah John Boyitt nominated for Howard Cosll. He lost to Jim Broadbent in Iris be been not nominated. Should have been nominated. should have. shouldhould have been nominated. Should have been nominated. Yep. one hundred ten million made eighty seven. Lost money. B kind of crazy. Yeah. Ebert two stars When this came out, did you feel like the the thing that was working against it was the critical reception as we're about to get to or Why didn't this do better? It came out a week after Lord of the Rings also. U, critical response was like, eh is good It just, I don't know eightighty seven million is still not awful for zero one, but the fact that it cost one hundred ten million because man's like, I'm going to Africa. We're going to Afra We're going here, we're going here. We're recreating this. eighty seven million is bad for one reason It's W Will Smith movies before that I knew that the movie would have problems resonating with people where my dad didn't like it My dad is the man that handed me VHS tape Yeah of Mohammad Ali And for some reason He couldn't connect with the movie. L the movie for some reason, he just He didn't like it. It's also too long for If you're going to be two hours, forty five minutes Then you only get the two screenings a day instead of the three, so you're cutting it into your own money. Drag almost had a stroke. I did split it into two different viewings Ebert, two stars A long flat, curiously muted film about the heavyweight champion lacks much of the flashfire and humor momomadily shot more in the tone of a eulogy than a celebration Um, hisis review is really good for this. I would encourage people to read it, but he does say no no modern actor could capture Ali completely I've never read him and disagree with the review more W you disagree with disagree with the fact that the movie in some way should have been a celebration of Muhammad Ali. I think the best thing about this movie is to examine this extraordinary life We don't need Mham the celebration is his life itself. Yeah. What I always want to know from a biopic, my one question Every biopic is what it costs you That's the only thing I ever want to know about biopig. We know that you were great. We're making a movie about you We know that you did what it cost you Why would you have to give up? Like what love did you leave on the table What personal situations did you leave on the table What skeletons or bones do you have behind you to achieve that type of greatness? because that sacrifice is what it takes. That's what this movie is about to me Obviously a character and a person that's just too close to Ebert. I mean, Michael Man doesn't make humorous and celebratory movies. so it's kind of like, you know what with Tain and Ebert, he wrote a piece about the Rocky movie, watchatching with Alive. Yeah And he said, u talked about he spent one day with him. I saw a man enormously entertained by life Twinkling with amusement, lowering the tinted glass window of his Roll's limousine. pedestrians could do a double take when they saw it was him And then he's like He thought Smith play played him as more meditative and subdued, sad. U And I just think he's like, that's not the guy I spent a day with And that seemed like a card. anyyway. and Most reatchable scene We mentioned in the opening Sam Cook all the way into theund Bundini intro into the list and weigh in. What's a better Michael Man sequence other than maybe the bank shoot out? I mean the opening of heat is pretty high up there in terms of like an opening of a film. there's Several battles in Mohicans that I think attain this kind of like nirvana, but Diner scene and thief. The Diner scene. this big type romance. ye. U but this is this is among the best things he's ever put together. The collateral jazz sce when shoots Barry back up. Yeah that that's stuff is all. I was just looking at collateral, that stuff. all really works, but Hey, Home, is that my briefcase Dann, we used to be a real country man tell me' at my brief. I like when Lista goes, keepeep talking. I'm gonna fuck you up. It's like just don't kill Tom in that movie D' kill Tom in this is are about collateral Yeah. don'till it. Don'till Tom in movie. D'till And just run it back three years for collateral two for collateral to Day of the Soldario L more rewatchable scenes that aren't going to win because we already have the winner Third round, sixth round of the Wiston fight is really good. I like when Liston quits. When Oie's on the onn the stool kind of watching Listen. I was gonna to ask you, what's the wrap on list in cheating blinding Alie thing. Was that? He Liston definitely did that. I to think that it was just that it happened on its own That like they they rub you with stuff, it got on the gloves and it got out of his eyes. But no way. Most people look at it. Liston was a scumback. Like there's no way he didn't do that. scumback. He was a bad He was a bad person. bad man. He was a heavweight champ in the world. Sonunny Liston was bad. you think you're talking to Bill X? Come on. William X did not like Sonny Liston William ax would love Sonny Liston. William X did not like Sonny Lon stood people shot. William X should be a recurring character on this show. No, we can't do what's not William X not approving of Denzel and Julia Roberts's relationship with Dalcan Breeak No, sir I won't have it. You know, I had this in Niix The movie Avoidance The Muslims thought Angela Dundee doctored the gloves because he was trying to tank the fight for Ali. And it's like a big part of the lore of that fight. Yeah. so I start coming to the corners They're not going Angela boxing guy. So I didn't know about that. Yeah That's a real thing. I don't know why that wasn't in the movie. The moment in the film to show Dundee putting like shit in his pockets and then he's He puts pills in his pockets, right? Yeah. And then he's like getting all of his stuff together and And I was like, o, this is cool. This is just Michael Man doing like, look at this master of his craft. But I wasn't sure that I read about like there' all these like allegations both ways. It's amazing that he was blind for one of the six rounds and just advanced. And then if you watch it, like the sixth round Liston quits after the six, likeike he kills Liston in the sixth round. He like really fucks him up Uh Malcolm in the hotel room with Ali Camer anangle of Van Peles with Ali behind him. Yeah. justust kind of staring out. and it's a long scene too, that's great We mentioned how we turning his back on Malcolm in Africa. Um Obviously not rewatchable for the typical reasons, but I thought the the scene when Malcolm gets murdered and then Ollie in the car is just really c. That's alsos really crazy that that I believe is Chauncey Eskridge was on the phone. Tal because like that yeah,'s it's an amazing. seecrets The uh secondecond list in fight just because of Jada Pinkin's performance in the stance Yeah Coso Coming after you. Wh coward U Ali on the phone. Yeah, I know where Vietnam is. It's on TV when he does the Viet Kong thing. And then Power Bing I was like, You know what you just did? Um Wilsmon's best scene in the movie when he comes out of the courtroom, and he's like, you're my oppressors and he does that forty five second You my enemy, not no Chinese, no Vvehicong, no Japanese You're my opposer when I want freedom and does that whole I think that's his best scene in the movie leading into the ter railay in and all that stuff. Um Do you like this scene with Ali and Bundini when he sells the milk? My solder belt. My two favorite scenes in the movie. That one and for some reason, Aee watching Forean knock out Joe Fraasier That's just such a real fucking scene to where you feel like you got everything lined up. R. And then all of a sudden That scene anotherother boxing thing. If you want to see the greatest destruction ever, G watch of a great champion. watch the way I know you guys have seen. you guys are sports fans how Foreman destroyed fucking Joe F D goes Facious. It's just like just like a child, but I like cool how they're all sitting on the couch and like they're like, this is a good's not a big deal and it's like what the fuck? like we like we this guy's announcing himself But the Bundini scene is particularly moving to me Oie goes on wide road of sports R into Frasier takes Aldi for a ride Um You be cor I'm gonna get in the ring, I'm gonna k gaz I think James Tony's good in that scen. Jam Tony' good Yeah U Cosell tells Ali he won the trial Oie loses to Frasier. moveove Ls U and it's like, okay, hook coming I like how they did that, but they get that by fast. All Bumet running through the streets. And then, uh Alee Fman heading into the eighth round the when the ring girl winks at him and he winks back and then leading to like him kind of All right, now I'm going to go and he gets form me, which is still That had to have been the most thrilling moment you could possibly have if you loved a team or an athlete. when he actually beats Foreman in the eighth round. that has to be number one. What do you guys think of the boxing in this film? I like it. I like it too. I think he He took a more deliberate approach to it Some boxing is about movement, some boxing is about Some boxing I'm talking one when I' talk about boxing in movies. Some of it's about moments, someome of it it's about thirds Like he wanted you to feel the thirds. couldn't really approximate the speed of a prime Muhammad Ali. You would almost have to do CGI stuff. Right. But like as far as the movement and the actual impact, I thought they did a good job. And the guys Like unlike other movies, they look like heavy. Yeah, they are fighting and the And they're hitting each other. Yeah I thought the Foreman fight specifically was really, really, really close to the actual fight the way he's leaning back, the way Foreman was just the foreman was pounding him. It felt like Will was taking a lot of those shots. What'd you think It's just interesting because like I look at it from a purely cinematic, it sometimes is a little bit. fights in this movie lack a little bit of the stylistic diversity I think Raging Bull has. Like Raging Bull, he shot each fight in this different kind of way. And I feel like he shot to my eye He shot these fights in a very similar fashion the entire like what he was trying to be exactly like the actual fight. Yes. And I think I think but I guess I prefer ultimately Scorsese trying to the experience of looking at a life magazine photograph rather than like ly like the forman actor took that punch. Yeah. I will say take the whole face shake. I will say that those two fighters are also different With Jake Lamada, you have to capture brutality, which that movie captures the brutality of who Jake Lamada was. Yeah. With Ali, obviously he was a very dangerous fighter But there's an elegance to it. likeike there are times where he's delired he's delivering performance inside of the air And that's what's so good about the Final fight in this movie is a smart decision to end the movie with that fight Because it's Ali at the peak of his performance as a fighter. Athletically, he had been but how he could be theatrically inside of the ring and outside of the ring. What's your favorite Boxing in a movie, notot necessarily boxing movie, but the like fighting in a movie It's such a stupid answer is a really stupid answer. Digs toown It's not that answer.s's it's not a very serious movie, but for me It's a good one though. It's like Digstown. I liked it too.. I think the first The first Ced fight actual fight Some out in Meico when no, not Mexico, the one saying atever had w. I forget who he fights when that first round when it's like the entire way that r you wantan to fight in Creed. That's what I'm saying in Mexic The win in Mexico, the first time you see a Dononna' Cree fight period Now, the next n. He's creeedy by his point. He's Stallone is in his corner. Oh, okay. Yeah they did a really good job at that Mys a good boxer. Well, and also that it was one shot for like three straight minutes. I thought that's probably the best thing I've seen. U What was your favorite scene, Craig I really liked all the Coselle. Hly stuff. I found that to be really fascinating. Mainly also probably just because I can't believe that's something that was happening culturally And that's something that would never happen now. those type of conversations on air like that and like their interaction and like even I was watching old videos of Ali talking to Dick Cave it. And I was just like, man, this is crazy. Like the typees of conversations that they're having is just not really what you get. Closest thing we had was Bill and KD Yeah So yeah long time ago, man. I remember it was the second Ali Frasier. After the fight, Ed Wad wrote to sports and allie started making up fun of Frasier that he went to the hospital and they got in the actual fight and Wad wrote to sports. I think it was the second fight. U I I think it's it's obviously the first ten Yeah. It's got min first You could even say the first twenty four minutes. the only thing that like I approaches that for me is The Zyire arrival, like the Konshasa arrival or the that's awesome. We're running through ing Yeah It like The fact that it rained right after he knock form it out, which is something that happened in real life is one of the craziest things that's happened in a sporting event. My dad always said, God want him to finish two minutes after the knockout. Yeah. Horing hurricane rain. Yeah. Unbelievable. It would have been like you can't make that shit up. W wouldould have been like a terribly hot day and a whole night? What's the most two thousand one thing about this mov is year I guess I just had Will Smith critical and commercial sensation What do you Kind of the same but I will say the cast itself is this mixture, Oh shit. theses got something's brewing. The cast itself is this mixture of like ascending people likeike I mean Jamie and some of these other people, but also like Staples of people c many people are Jeffrey Wright and Jamie and all of this stuff and then you had your Oer garden will that's a very two thousand one cast. What are you about to see? Including Ron Silver Is he the most two thousand one? No when I did the junk it It was the only time I'd ever been to a movie junket and I had ten minutes with Bron Silver and I immediately went into silent Rge. God, I'm excited about silent rage I was like, I'm a huge silent raage guy. he's like Killer wouldn't die. and he was all excited and we talked about it. What was the movie that he was in Jamie Lee Curtis. Bue Steel. B steel Yeah Tub be classic. where he was he was like a killer or B Bue st. you might have to crank that one up one n after L bigigl, isn't it? It It'sue steel It good the two be all stars last year. My most two thousand one thing. Will and Jana, young love Real chemistry go. Yeah. Great to see them happy really believed in those two. Some good things ahead. They're still together The Floyd Gun dolly butter my ass and lollip pops in my mouth the word for something I just enjoy. What do you have Van I like whenever actors take on athletic roles and commit to it There's nothing that I hate more then some half ass actor trying to play basketball Whenever they really commit to it Oat Damon doing Legend of Bagger Vance and two weeks ago F h. when they bulls you to bought it, I don't like it. but when they really commit to it and bring that to it, I always find myself SR. Cosell's voice And I just miss But Pat Summeral, Keith Jackson era. Bob I mean, even through Costa. just White annswers. No, I didn't say that. I was gonna I just miss like guys who tried to capture the poetry of a moment Yeah rather than just be like Welcome to the fucking like should Steven Aome forven A not cl it for you? No Wh Who's left Bob Costas Breen. brain Breenss and I like that. Jo book, you know Now there's nobody left. Nobody's left. Th those guys are all gone There's nobody who can levitate That Nance a little bit. Yeah. But Nance who can levitate abve your event with some monologue. G for three minutes. good like Vin Scully or I it's easy to do it on the masters. You know what I mean? But even college basketball dance had it. Yeah. It's what Tom Ronaldi tries to do Um My flickaking dolly, damn Oh, I got my bell rung slow motion moment in every boxing movie where it's like ra and they do like the weird and it's like I it's like that. It's like, ohh, he got fucked up. Have you ever actually had your billroom Um Not by a punch what happen I've hit my head a couple times where I'm like, fuck. Right. Yeah I got elbowed in basketball once. Oh, that's a good one. I hit my head in the attic where I didn't realize the doorway was low and I just got clocked like fell to the ground, Cocked W say' the best? Mentioned any moment with Genane Clarlo Esposito and JB Fox together. That just should have been all the deleted scenes. James Tony acting I love Foreman, the actor playing Foreman just hitting the heavy bag in that scene. Jesus , and man just stays with it for like ten seconds. Yeah U No lines for Paul Rodriguez and then Jim Gray and Bill Plashky being in scenes. Yeah. Bill Plashky has a line Hes to ask a question, right? Yes, too, doesn't he? Yeah yeah. Jim Grey's just smiling like a maniac for some reason. What do you have I have the champ is here as a rarap sample. Yeah I have u Smith's fighting ability, you are never like he's not fighting or they're about to double in or anything like that I talked about this, but the ly the fact that it's a Lo keiy Malcolm X movie for an hour. Yeah it was mine I Since then, they've put Muhamad Ali in a bunch of different shows and stuff. and there's another one coming out. They're doing the greatest. And so like just Muhammad Ali as a cultural figure that they want to put on a narrative Yeah has exploded after this I will also say that u However I don't know anything about like what I assume the guy was singing because it's not same cook Exactly. He's not lip syncing Sam Cook's voice But it's a very good approximation of Sam Cook And that is on the live record, the call in response That goes on is exactly how it is on the live record. and it's fucking amazing to watch a bunch of other stuff happening while Sam Cook is playing It was just that whole sequence is just so brilliant. I'm just disappointed. I thought Van was going to have a what's stage the best here and I'm sad I'm going to have to do it. Okay Beautiful black woman in st van. William is back.. William X is here. man. E in the Apollo scene, there's like Good ones in the crowd. It's just like Michael Man Michael Man was Michael Mann was Tapping into something. It really was You should go back to writing. And it should be from the author of the book of basketball, he's changed his name. T? And it's the book of Black women. The book of Black women. God. Goodes Pyrams. Here's my prologue about Jane Kennedy. See that's a good one It's good one. person veryer important person seven This is what you know I will say this though Is that like For me personally, if we get into this There's an era of fine. that That this movie represents and it is harkened back to in the sixties that a lot of people wish was still around Vere. look good I'm not coming down on no one I gott to lose weight, so don't come for me Right? Every like everybody looks good. So you'm saying There' a spine aesthetic. All of these women look different They don't have the same body. They're petite women, they're tall women and women are all different complexions. It doesn't seem like thiss assembly line of beauty that we've seeen now and that's kind of how the nineties were That's a chapter for William X's book mee and Thlma from G good timeime. Who's that on the left? Remember You lying? Yeah, it's me and Rembert metet Thma. That's Rembert right there. Yeah, Rembert. Lyind? That's Rememberered. Yeahah I think he and I were the same shirt right now. Okay That looks nothing like the room that I We were so excited about the film my room. That's my news But it's our next category. We' really excited to meet them I really We were like Starstuck T The fight scenes, one last thing for what stage the best. The only limitation placed on the fighters Um they could hit Smith as hard as they could as long as they didn't knock him out So it's why a lot of it is like shoulders body. like nobody's like head hunting with them. but they're fucking hid. Also like if they are shooting other stuff, you can't have like black eyes and sht Yeah. Um Yeah, that's about. And then they had Angelo helping out. We'll take one more break and then we'll do the rest of categories Evening by his remorse Buy a new car Ill be Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyer' rejoice I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on C cararbana L limitations exclusions may apply See your S sevay return policy C cararbana This episode is brought to by Netflix. The T mobile homeome runun derbies right around the corner. might be one of the best showcases of pure power and all sports baseballs Biggest sluggers. along with some legendary Announcers, Puhos, Rizzo, Bonds, Sabathia L Duncan Yeah Pence, Matt Fast Kurzian, a whole bunch of people And it's the one night where you don't swing to make contact. You swing. History. I'm interested is who Bon says about this actually. Anyway, it is all live from Citizens Bank Park In Philly, watch the T mobile Home rununs be live on Netflix Monday, july thirteenth at eight PM Eastern five PM Pacific SR what do you got for greathack Gordo. So there's a ton in this, but my favorite is in that opening sequence when he's training his clay And he's on the speed bag The camera's behind the speed bag and the way that he is punching it creates the illusion that he's almost on a film strip and it's being hit in time with the music, but it almost feels like you're watching like an old film strip because of the way bag is affecting like the way the camera is and that's a good one. I'm just like, dude, you you're the fucking's a man, bro. I love in that open that extended opening scene. how fast they're walking when they're coming around the ramp. And it's everybody in concert almost like they're I've never you're going into the press conference. It's like real speed and purpose. It's just really cool. And Oi's entrance for the forman fights goodwin cameras behind him And he comes out and he doesn't kind of realize how many people are there and he's kind of like, holy shit. And the camera comes around and catches it which I think was actually Will Smith's reaction because I don't think he had seen it So he's kind of like Jesus. Yeah, there's also like the The way that it like it'll be that the screen's completely dark when he gets off the plane in Ier and it goes out And then the running in Zyir where it like is like basically somehow above him Yeah and then comes in behind him That's my favorite shot. The running is like he just D It goes from being This is This full world that he hasn't explored yet This is a guy who can fill up any world once he gets there. Yeah. So the camera the camera like tells you that. the camera goes, Oh my God, this is guy place's a big place he doesn't know where he's at blah blah blah, but this Muhamad Ali, so it's just like a matter of time before this world becomes his. Then of Thieves, Benyhano word Zire, obviously. for sure, you guys,Zire. Kid cuty pursued happiness. That's the opening. Sam. Was there a better title for this movie You floated with. or did you flat one? Yeah, what would you say, what was yours? You You said one of you guys The awakening of Ali Like the political education, the political awakening, like the ye The education of Muhammad Ali. The redemption of Muhmad Ali. that Like if you just wanted to do a boxing movie, I'd call it Champces here. You know, like I mean Champ is here. Champus here is not bad. What do you think of that one, Craig I like it. Ali should have fucking sold itself. Like Allli is Alie be like I know what I'm I know what movie probably has have to go with Ali Yeah. but you have to go with Ali. I think now would probably be Ali Colin, the champ is here. the way they name movies now Cashus sex in game. What's your flex The Todd Parker Award for Best Character Entrance goes to Jamie Fox as Bundini Brown I'm called Bundini, rhymes with Houdini. He was a Jew too. Some people call me Fast Black. some people call me Daddy Mac. And then the shoot where he's just like Call him shorty 'cause he likes him circumciseed. L this movie introduces Fox I know he's only in like six scenes or seven scenes or whatever, but man like when Michael Mann introduces Jamie Fox That's the star Like m telling you the reason why I think he introduces them that way is because he's really introducing Muhammad Ali's performance persona to the audience That's what these characters are all Yeah like like Malcolm X is his political stuff. This is the making of this guy. And then when Jamie Foosx comes in, the reason why because even when you watch it, you go like This guy's not in the movie at all. Well when they go into the press conference, they're saying the lines together. Right. he's introducing you to that part of him. because the first thing we see from him is the imitil stuff The work ethic, you see the building of a champion and Angelo is running everything and Angelo's running everything. And then when Bundini comes in, it's like, oh my God, this is how this is what took for this guy to be to become our leadite. I like how he talk during between rounds as Dund's talking Yeah. because that's why if you watch the fights, he's just fucking yapping. He's doing a podcast As Dun like, hey, watch the right Butndeed he's just onting the sideg no. Nobody can touch you champ. You're the best Butch's girlfriend, wek link of the film, we mention this. this has to be the answer. that we just jump three years I we miss so much. You have a different one. What do you got? The original music. I do not think this is a the right score for this movie. would have So it's Peter Bork and Lisa Durardi did the insider music and it really works for the insider But I think they should have either had an orchestral score or they should have had like a jazz score, like there it does not feel It takes you out of the time zone, the time period. And I think it would have just been benefited if they had had like a really good Tareren's Blanchard style jazz orchestral score U I had something different, but it was also A in the actual creative Michael Mann's Grainy digital type of look. Yeah works It's I love it in collateral. obviously, love it in. And this one It I don't know if it works for period In this one, it parts of it didn't feel like when you're in nineteen sixty eight. Yeah, like yeah, yeah,. Sometimes it would just take you out of it a little bit. I think that the trade off is that Casso just is a different situation if you're there with like a bunch of lights. Absly. You know, like a lot of and I don't, you know, he he will make a movie with a ton of stakes and a ton on the line, and he will be like, but The camera is on the tip of this pen, and I'm going to shove it in between these two guys while they're fighting.ight. It's's he's a risk ter. Yeah, but like, you know If this movie had to you the orchestral and for me, the visual sweeping scale of L cllass and Mohs, maybe it lands with people differently I threw this in the Sasha Jenkins Award Joshu know it's Sashor Jenson For actor you can't believe didn't become a bigger star, not a gay I don't know. I don't know why she She feels like she could have gone pound for pound with all the other ones from that era. Right I mean, she I think she's really good in this movie. She's good and never useful. I have Michael T for this That's another one where I'm just like Why wasn't he a biger star Hey guys possible that there's Oh boy. Forces workold that. Let me get will you next? Bayx is there is it possible? Bayonx? Is it possible? there wasn't a climate in the town that could have as many roles for these people as what they needed to explore all of their. Well Michael Michelle was on ER. She was on ER. I mean, look when no when the movie came out Nona Gay was on Nona Gay was in Crash, Nona Gay was in the Matrix sequel. So I is it possible that there's just not enough roles for all of the very possible performers. Yeah M G' daght Another special category, how would Van Lathon get out of this one? Which one? Well, you're in i air and you just started dating a new girl and your wife said she was going back to Chicago to take care of your sick child, but now she's back in your room. She' do you love this new woman? And she's upset about your new girl and you're about to have a fight in two weeks. So what do you tell your wife? Do I love her? Yeah, I love her. And let me tell you why. I love her because I have to love her because the CIA is watching me And by the way, you know the CIA is watching me. You know I'm being watched by the CIA Press is on my back. everyone's on my back I'm being surveilled I got a lot of pressure You know what pressure I don't need I don'll need the pressure of you Well like this biggest fight in my entire life. Why are you doing this to me? right now doing this to me Like and nothing happened? Look at that woman. That's way too light skinn for me That's not how I even like 'em. I like I like you. Right. But the reality is, you're here now. now I got toa think about this. I go out there and killed. Have you seen this guy hit the heavy back? Let's go. You know what Don't even worry about this. We're gonna go watch this guy hit the heavy bag. And then after we watch this guy hit the heavy bag You then can make your mind up about whether or not you want to put this on my mind right now becausecause I could be killed Then what? You're killing me right now Just by bringing this up. You you know what I a much shorter version of this would be. What is if Olli just did Vincent from Heat and was like, You knew when we hooked up, baby that you were gonna have to share me when all them de people they should have throw that in. What age the worst Bill and Jada, the romance. together We still got a lot of runway. We got a lot of runway by the way. It a long life. is working for them They still got a family You know, it's working for them Oh I don't have any other whatood stage worst that we didn't m. On the original soundtrack, there is a ton of R Kelly Allright I see he's in this one. Oh Is it the greatest the greatest is he the it plays in the movie I thought one of y' was going to use as a nal dp. That's why I'm witing' Bill's last Zack Bill's li ag. Where am I going? Bills Bills William Xill William X L agger Guys I was hanging out with some people this weekend A tellelly Get on him That's Why would I be hanging out with R. Kelly in this scenario? I'm not hanging out with R Kelly. I'm listening to his music. I listen to mus. I'm back in on R. Kelly. That's your last say And then we'll know that it's over when you do that Thats I about this I never really liked Rr Kelly's music ever Never I was never a huge fan. What's your favorite R andB Not our Kelly. Well just tell me to. Ben Bills Bill's R and B party. What's that Bill's R and B party? Give me like three songs. I know Sean shit Sean shit. I mean excuse me I' never like a huge R and B guy though. Oh so you don't like it. You don't like R music? Oh, it's like the early nineties was my era for it Right now he's sweat Cithher Vandro. See, why are you second guessing yourself, but you I'm not second guessing myself. I'm just saying like I never in the two thousands. L No, forget it, the nineties was where you wan to be okay, onene life. Make it last forever.. Fake it last Love sw sw I, I really did love Ki sweat. Yeah But that's but know the two thousands is not when the R and B, the nineties is the heyday of the R andB.. It's new Jack swing and newew Jack swing and all. Ned a Baker output is the third. Now let me tell you something. I don't know if you know this. But these are like sex music songs. There you go. Yeah, That's how you do it Lellex likes to get dead,? or William X I screwed up the joke The would say the worst for. O thing. I know the kids when they watch this movie When he's talking to Nona Gay's character. There's a conversation that they have where she talks about how he came to her school Yeah, that's tough. And he remembers her even th she was like that she was eleven years old. That was tough. He had She had a brain on. I called you a little Indian girl . I told you when I came to your school, baby Craig, what do you got for Flex I'm acknowledging that John Void is very famous and successful as an actor and the whole thing. But For my millennial experience with John Void, it's it's not great. I want to give him the bam out of bio eighty three point. I did not know this was John Void until I saw the credits. Wow. because I try to not look up a lot just watch the movie credits roll, John Void, Howard Coell blown away. too me like that thought it was Coach Komer. That's my guy mister Sir, you know, from Holes. That's National treasure guy and to see him as Howard Cosell crushing it, unrecognizable. I thought it was fantastic He's a phenomenal actor. Whatever he thinks about anything else is his fucking business. But when he gets in front of that camera. I'm just saying, like I'm not gonna hold that that is what it is, but he can get busy. L he really can. not the greatest grandfather? Yeah The CR thingss, Luke Wilson C couldould have been Harison Ford, Hott takeake a word This isn't really a hot take. I think that there iss a version of this film that could have been made. and I think Michael Mann would have made an incredible film out of this. that's just the Chauncey Eskard story that's like t phenomenal. Now I don't want it as an alternative to Ali, but the idea that a guy was artin Martin Luther King and Muhamed Ali's lawyer at the same time. is fucking incredible and I't believe the Jo Marton character. Yeah, the Joe Morton character and that we don't have A film about that and a film about that guy is pretty wild What do you have As I said already, Wills Will acts better when he doesn't speak in the movie and that's like really tough to do It's a great performance, but a fantastic performance when there's no dialogue Mine is a I think there's a greatest sports movie of all time in here with a different angle, which is basically Allli and Fraasier and doing it that way And I would dump all the other stuff. Even though I like it in this movie, I don't care about Would you make with I don't care about Malcolm X. I'm just doing him versus Frasier. I don't care about Malcolm X. I'm saying for this movie. Are you doing basically Ollie Frasier is at its heat. these two guys It's Ollie and Fraasier and it's their three fights And it Oh the whole trilogy. That's it. Okay. That's my movie. Okay And it's it's about like, it's Frasier coming up and then it's all the title of it Yeah And And I'm not in with Islam in the sixty four. I'm like starting around sixty eight. There I'm going through. Okay wait So are you doing co leads in this movie? That's the only thing That's why it didn't happen. You're going haveilly buyop p. Youre going to sell Joe Fraser to people. For boxing people, Joe Fraser is an incredible. Do you think Michael T. Williamson could have done Joe Fraasier? Probably. I had it I had a turn at some point in my life where I actually became Team Joe Fraasier because of I just thought he was put in such a horrible spot with all these stuff I feelt like he became the sympathetic figure eventually. It took me, I don't think I was in til my mid thirties until I really fully saw it. So Brian Gumbble had the same thing Briant Gumbble actually wrote this article back in the day. I remember. Oh Yeahah. Yeah. Oh you talked to you so you see that's in when we were kings. So Brian Gumbal had the same way, but growing up, to me understanding likeike when when you listen to Marvis Fraser talk, aboutb like going to school and everybody's making fun of him at school. Alice says your dad is an uncle Tom. When really this guy was not an uncle Tom. Well, he called him gorilla like that's all really bad stuff. So But growing up is realizing that you're you're, you know, that's that about your heroes and that once again, the biopic is What did it cost you? What are the skeletons? That's what I know enjoy. It's basically the ghosts of Minoa book that Mark Cram wrote. There was a Frasier documentary too, Frasier Ali that's tilted more toward Frasier, that's good. Um, I just think they're dynamic And then Oie to him, it was all about selling the fight, not realizing the cost it was doing to Frasier. To me is a more interesting movie. There's a so I read an article back in the day about how Joe Fraasier carried this his entire life, right? He's so bitter about it his entire life. and This actually spilled over into Joe Fraasier A lot of times being way less than sensitive about, uh Olless Parkinsons later on in his life. He was kind of a jokeer Yeah. He's like I'm'm I still have my facululties you could tell who won those fights. Yeah who actually won who won those fights? So there's they were at an event together And because the articles talking about how Joe Fraaser need to let it go. They were at an event together And they were like, yo, you guys should hit the heavy bang. And Joe Fraasier goes, I' h it and Joe Fraasier, who is still in control of all of his shit, gets up there and starts wailing on the heavy bag, you know, This is like in the eighties. so he's probably like in his fifties or something like that. He hasn't lost any of time and any power. He does all of that stuff And he comes back feeling like I finally fucked over this guy, right Ali walks up to the heavy bag and goes Did you guys see that And the whole room starts laughing And he made a fool out of him again And they were just like, Joe Just give it up He just couldn't get around him Casting ws couldn't find any except for Willmith turned down Alie and then Ali called Willsmith asked him to do it. And at that point, you can't say no to Ali. that was that What type of sh do will be on I don't know. But no, I think it's justifiable that it's too intimidating of a roow. like, what are you going to do the wants to do the to try it. Well he needed to get there. Yeah. Yeah He's like, no, I got to do Ii roobot Seriously, that's probably good say. I mean, that's not hold. I got to do backager bs. Do you I mean, do you play out? Do you play out in your head Denzel doing this As Muamed Ali? I don't think it works. I don't think it works either. I don' think he's big enough either. He's not big enough. Wilsmith was six three. That was part of With what made this He's perfect L looks like heavyweight. Yeah, yeah. That's that guy word. It's all graduated that guys as as prerely mentioned. Yeah It's not Barry Bry. I think Barry was one I guess it, but he's a Michael Man, that guy Yeah Dian Waaders Don King Joe Fraaser or Veronica. Is Jamie eligible? No? No, Too much. toooo much or Veronica Porschia I think you gott to go I go Michael T. I go Don K. I go that toest as well. Reasting couch director, City slight case for James Tony. just P put it out there. I had them on the list. Yeah Um Sikely We can talk it out. We can talk Alumber Stone out I'm glad played out the way it did with Michael Mann because I don't think there was any way to make this movie perfect, so you might as well make it stylistically incredible. And again, like when did he make Malcel Max? It was like ninety two? two. So if you're doing this version of the movie, I don't know how he just is like, yeah. I gonna run back my Malcol eX stuff. like, I don't know I think he would have made a different film. He probably would have not had that stuff in at all, right? I think it would have been A really awesome movie. But I don't like I accept and like this movie the way it is Halfest cent to research, Will Smith was a pallbear at Ali's funeral U Will Smith and Michael Mann put up their salaries that the movie went over budget. Yeah because Will Smith was coming off Wild Wild West. so like there was some Money stuff. Smith didn't want to meet Ali For months and then seven months in the filming, Ali came to the set and Smith did his whole Trash talk Ollie thing for fifteen minutes And Olly was impressed and turned to Howard Bingham and said, How come you didn't tell me I was so crazy Imagine doing Ollie for Ollie? Hi, Brh's the m. Well, you know what? for Don John Carlo, I think Esposito would count for Don, wouldn't it Yeah, he'n't fouroreseen. He's a Maelx calgory What's your flex category? What's here? The David Caruso stuff of Legends Award for character who definitely should have been spun off into their own sequel I would love to see A movie with Gan Carlo as Oie's dad It's him watching all of this crazy ass shit happen to his son I love that character. I love the character reminded me so much of my dad. that char he think about it. that character's going from watchatching his son be the best amateur heavyweight to getting it. thenen his son joins the nation of Islam. chang his name. He gott to tell it's his name. Yeah. So he's done all of this work and now his name cashes Cay is going to be everywhere, except it's not is not going to be everywhere. A new name will be everywhere. His son marries the woman, loves the woman He meets Bundini Brown. I think it would have been a really fucking interesting. It would have been awesome. There's so many characters in this movie that you could make a Howard Binger movie. You could make Bundini Brown. You could make a Bundini movie. you could make a Casell movie, you could make a Don King movie. I mean Fraaser. But the more I saw Jean Carlo on screen, the more I wanted to see Apex bound., I got one more half thatage their research The guy There's an actor named Albert Hall in this movie. Yeah. he plays Elijah Muhammed in this, but in Malcolm X. ye In Malcolm X, he plays a character named Baines, who is a fictitious character that was there to sort of be like, he leads amalcolm Malcolm in his prison conversion, right? Right. He introduces Malcolm to Elijah Muhammed In this movie he plays Elijah Muhammed. He is also the boat commander inpocalyse now. Apocalypse now I had some notes on his living room Could it needed more furniture? Oh, yeah, William. Yeah. next. the for the table chairs sl. Yeah. What was the last time we ran W' Syramid? Pretty big M to the Black man Apex mountain. Will Smith He's taken an Lld though he's coming off Waa West so he is like He's woggling. So if not this, what's his apex then I think it's the I think independent independent the enemy of the state. we litigated this when we did enemy of the state, I think It's in the last n he does a series of like sequels and stuff. like ye I can make an argument. He goes Fresh Printince, Independence Day Men and Black that you's tough to beat I make an argument thatm Willmith at the absolute peak of his powers is hitched L five absolute peak of his powers Hitch is a movie that legitimately everything else that we're talking about all of that stuff, those movies have conceed, big aliens, all of that type of shit. Fresh princes. Very close to what I'm talking about Hitch is Will Smith Directly demonstrating what a devastating movie movie star is. He charms us through the entire movie and makes it into a really good film I done the rewatch, was less Fox No Ollie movies, yes J to will relationship probably James Tony Still fighting And's an Ali Yeah, maybe. Yeah mean I think it's nineties for James. He was like the undisputed Donking impersonations In a movie? Yes. Cound person nations, yes. Yes Boxing movies no, Apex Mountain for C selling P. Don King Being rained youa it out one What was what was he? Ving Rames did the Don King movie Oh, that's on showowtime, right? Like ye ye or HBO one of those has a lot more. that's the devil is a motherfucker. Uh, Michael Man the insider I think that this is, like I said, this is the end you call it we call Apex Mountain and you can call it the imperial phase, which is like a pop music term, but they're both like at the peak of their powers per se But I don't think this is apex m. I think it's insider Inside was kind of box office disppointment though No, but it got Oscars and it leads to like, I'm going to spend a one hundred and ten million on my Ali moving. They're like, go ahead, Michael M. Right. Yeah, I think that run is the apex And it might be anybody's apex, maybe like Spielberg, Denny It's not too many guys that have them back to back like that Best name for a Rource. Ali Bume It's pretty gorgeous booi Dini. ish h Cruiser Hanks. Would you want tona see play Ali CR Is it in Blackface or is it like just It' just m William Max, get your guy. I had Hanks as Cll I mean, you'd have to that the only way So doesn't have any play Cuise as Angelo Dy. Come on, Daddy. C. Can I run with you U What do you have, Craig Thankanks this go what options do we have? Not a lot Bob Air. Scorsese or Spielberg, bringing it back for this one. Scorsese O course Ay, o Picking nets. We mentioned a few Big one for me, they show the LSQuarry fight And then Alie goes and meets Joe Morton in the diner And then three weeks later I okay Gs killed The quarry fight EllisQarry happens three weeks after M O got killed. the scenes. I was also wondering me. Do you think that Ali found out he won the Supreme Court case from Howard Cosell. Is that true? and sitting at just a table I don't think that was true. I think they probably took some liberties When Joe Fraaser asked Alie if he needed any money Oh he took the money in real life. Yeah That scene was true. Really? Yeah, Yeah you was broke. Yeah. he ran out of money. and Joe would bring that up, which is you shouldn't do, by the way We mentioned the dates this movie desperately needed dates. and then It's a hardcore Ali nip pick, but he's speaking differently by the time we're in Zayir. Oh He's a little catchower Yeah, he's not, it's not as bad as after Manila, but it's definitely like the guy in the sixties is You sa watch flying to watch it happen. Yeah. He's a little, you know, it's just it's slowing down a little bit in that He just seems the same throughout the movie. Aually the slowing down becomes a part of it too. There are two very distinct Alies. There's a super fast talking Alie and then there's a slower talking allie, which is where we are in Yllt remember. An other NipPs U Sequel prequel prerestige to be all Bladcastter are Untouchable. Prestige TV would have been They had like one hundred and fifty million dollars for a ten hour lo that That's what the greatest is That's what it is It's a prestige.'s it's an Amazon joint Michael B Jordan them Or doing yeah. Who's playing Ali? I can't remember. I know that my man Aman from Snowfall is playing Sunnyist. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins Fergie the Florist, Zanlo, Robert Evans, Dr. Charles Nichols, or someone else here? Obviously Fox is incredible, but have you guys thought about Pete Pasilway as Bundiny Brown? No, I have not. Now I'm Jewish And he's Muslim. And because of that, he tells me I need to give up certain things And white women can give up pork But white women Not after a little taste U Ted Levine as the FBI agent But as buuffalo but as ye Yeah R Have you heard of Melbourne U He big fat person. H Just one askc her, who gets it? Interesting category. Fs I go with Jaamie. It's Fox Jeff Foxer, boy. I'm going boy 's that's ollie in the thing. a guy named Jayalen Best. Okay. Probably unanswerable questions. I only had one Why didn't more boxers try Sonny Liston's doctored Gloves trick Of course, they tried to show. This seems like a great idea for evil boxers.. And did Sonny Liston throw the second flight Almost definitely Phom punch depends on which lord you believe. You believe the lord at Ali was so quick, he could land a right that the camera couldn't even catch King out. Proably the most crooked boxer of the last forty five years. The lore about the fact that the mafia owns Sonny List. I they made him take a dog Also, like if you watch it There's a moment when he's down when he tries to get up and he does like this almost like pro wrestling and falls back down. It's really bad I always thought he threw it. Youd think he threw it, right? Yeah, probably The memorability you'd most want from this movie The one of the toughest ones we've ever had to do for me U the the hand tape that the ref signs to be like I've checked, you know, in the beginning. That's awesome. Yeahah I don't know what I would do with used hand tape, but's still be cool. I have the movie robe from the first List and fight, list and fight where you can see it says the lip on the back.. he they try to get him going as the lip go because guess what? Gess we didn't need a name. Ali It's gotten the greatest. I want you to I like I always like those old vintage gloves So either the gloves used that Will Smith used and the team . By the way, with the fight scenes, they tried All kinds of stuff with gloves to make it so they would look more realistic and nothing worked Bigger, softer gloves, so it could really end nothing Coach Finack M Maguware, B bestest Wse Life lesson, dude,ree A and easasy, free is real and Reel is a motherfucker. Y. Bestub feature choice, have when we were Kings, Malcolm next. I have Malcolm X. Okay Tough one Wh who won the movie I'm going to say Michael Man because that's why I watch the movie. Now I would say that, but I do think that his visual style Well, I Fans points really well taken about whether it works for period I think his visual style is the reason I return to this film All I know is you can't necessarily say that will one. I think actually this is one of the rare situations where Will's kind of out And after that, You did get nominated for the first time You get nominated for the first time. You did get nominated for the first time I personally, when I watch on a rewatch, It stupid. I kind of think Jamie Fox one them I think as blueprint or and using it as like the Yeah, being co Jamyoxr. And obviously Mann is like, that's my fucking guy. collateral do collateral again and all that stuff. That makes sense. I have Will Smith in the moment and then over the years Michael Mann. because I think he's the reason to keep coming back to this, even though it's a pretty It's a biopic. Yeah I don't think I'll be watching the Freddie Mercury Bioic twenty five years from now, but this keeps sucking me in No Freddie Mercur Biopic has some good scenes in it. What'silliam next thing for Freddie Mercur By Ejoys it? Oh, okay. Yeah, it Ls F's music William X contains so many different. Craig, you never saw this movie. No You blanched at the time, you were scared. little mean it really was long. It's like a f football. Yeah, But once you get once it gets rolling, you're like, all right. I thought the acting across the board in this movie was superb. Like I thought everybody was just fantastic. I thought there were a lot of shit like Zaire was amazing. The Coell stuff I thought was great. The Malcolm X stuff I thought was great I don't know, it's probably a generational thing, but I felt I just kind of disconnected this movie. I don't know why. I just felt like something was missing out of this movie and I don't know what it was I think I struggled with I couldn't really feel the weight of Oie's talent as a boxer in this movie. Like to be honest, I wasn't like this guy's an amazing boxer watching the movie. I didn't just know what was funny about that That's the one thing that the movie being made for us that you don't have to convince us of. Right. And I, you know, other than my clips here and there, I don't really know Like, I was kind of bummed that we didn't really get a lot of the feed stuff, which I understand, Will Smith can't do The movie magic of trying to really make maybe I'm just like rocky and ced brained or I like a little bit more of the theatrical boxing style. But like when the movie ended I was kind of like It know I was like, I don't exactly know what my takeaway is supposed to be or what the point of view is supposed to be from this movie, but I enjoyed it Maybe it's about too many different things. Maybe. it could be Maybe the movie iss a little bit about political stuff, a little bit about personal stuff. Like it didn't seem that much about boxing to me when the movie ended at boxing. I was like, oh Okay. Do you think we'll ever get to the point where we can just see GI the actor's face over the actual boxing footage for a boxing movie. We don't want that. Why would you want that I don't know, Amask.. I think the answer is yes. We could definitely do that. P it right now. L it's Mham Al face on old Muhammad Ali foot. I'm saying for some of the just slide it in so that we get all the athleticism and stuff from they do they like DH actors and put them in like the Irishman, you like the Irishman I'm saying would we ever cheat? Could you accept it? Like I put his legs on Will Smith. Almost like what they tried to do with Forrest Gump when they put Forrest in the different Well, I mean, what you're really asking for is for there to be like an AI facsimile of That will work the best, right? What you're asking for is an AI facimile that can approximate the speed, power and precision. Just watch a fucking Muhamad Ali YouTube video. That's the prom. Yeah. That's the thing. I think if you wanted to do something where it was like I want Timothy Chalamay to play like a middleweight fighter But he's You know, like there't There are limits of what he can do. Like Well, that's a good example though, because the ping pong was all AI. He wasn't actually was playing ping pong. It was CGI. I mean, CGI. Yeah. So wasn't playing he was playing ping pong, but wasn't playing at the level of the movie. The deal here is that like when you're a boxer or something you've been doing, most of the greats, not all of them But most it's something you've been doing since you're eight or nine years old And they're like fast and slow twitch muscle things. There's movement, there are angles, There's all of that stuff that you just can't get ready for in a movie camp to kind of like look like you know there's a lot of things like that. Yeah So you just I'm glad that it's refreshing to see William X open to new technology. Right. Be a lot of our religious leaders are a little bit, you know, but you, you know, you know, o, Willy Mix When is the next million man march You know it's a good boxing movie For vaccine seenes the hammer with Adam Karoll. Is that? Oh yeah that it is. Because Corolla actually boxed It's one of the rare ones Everyonese kind of learns how to box for the movie But rarely do we get the actor leading the movie who actually boxes. Bxes a little bit. D Stallone box? Did he mess around? No? He kind of learned how. Is there a boxing story that you would love to see made into a movie? a fighter, a fight Easy for me Emil Griffin Good documentary Amail Griffin Why Bill killed somebody in the ring That's not why. Well and and add some Hiding some secrets Yeah He was he was gay the whole time and middlewight. Yeah Like justust what are the dominate Middle weeights fucking over everybody, but also G guy. And the guy killed in the ring making fun of him for being gay. Oh wow. we killed him in the ring. Jesus. It's a good documentary. Did they make a word Godie movie Well, they they did not, but they made the fighter, but somehow word God he wasn't it I always thought a great movie would be Sugar Aay Leonard. winning the Hearn's fight G getting into like cocaine and the detached retina and then the five years leading to the Hagwar fyight in trying to be Say to obviously Mil Griffin is much more obscure as sugarate. That would be about the story and not about the thing Sugar get to biopic level I mean I personally think he did for some of the movies that have been biopCics. Like did Cinderella manan get to a biopic level? I know about the depression issue. Sue was the most famous fighters since Al' leadave before Tyson. Yeah like he definitely was, but like There was something to where he seemed like a bridge between right And Tyson. Do you like he held it down So to me that the sugaray story is like Ralph Sampson getting hurt in the eighty six finals, but then coming back and winning the ninety three finals or something. L it felt like er was kind of over Aetach Redness seemed like a dec. And he started to have a whole bunch of issues. Right. Then came back and then when he fought Hager it was like a four to one underdog.ike four years threeree years off? How many years off? five Yeah, like it just comes back. B eighty seven. D Like do you Do any of this ring a bell out of none of you I mean, I know these names, obviously, but ye ye Aadies man. CR, thank you. Thank you for having L and thank you. A Cragan Gow, than you Eduardo, thank you. Anyone else to thank Matt, thank you. We'll be back next week on the rewatchables with thirty year anniversary If she's the one, but she can watch that Netflix before we do the podcast. There you go