Carl Anthony Towns and Roster Construction

Hello and welcome to Groupshat. I am Justin Varrier and joining me on this lovely Wednesday afternoon. It's Ramoni. Jay Kyle, man. How's it going fellas? Sincere just looks terrible on you and enthusiasm I don't know. I try something just not to write about it. We were trying to talk about what we werere going to talk about at the top and we settled on weather talk, but Rob was Not a fan. We did not settle on by their talk. If you're out there listening to this, I tried to protect you. I tried to say, you know what, we need something to actually discuss. But Justin, you thought we could fly by the seat of our pants, our collective pants. It's like the old like whenever you do a weather lead to your story, you know, it's gotten really bad. So it's like it is cold and damp in San Antonio, but it's nice and hot and the discourse is piping over here on Groupchat For what it's worth. I do prefer the it's cold in Damp in San Antonio to the like. U Timothy Chalay pushed around the lettuce and his salad over this brokered interview at this stylish restaurant. Like at least it's a scene of scene of a different Miles Telller, what a dick because he only orders a sandwich. Yeah. reallyally gets you in the gets you in the moment, the real description of the are you talking about like roolling stone type interviews where they Yeah I'm thirty five thousand feet above the ground But still water the hottest band in America and we're all about to die. See? This is how I know y'all how longer it is. L you just a spike Almost famous off the dome. JV, did you have a take on the Miles telleller is a dick or is not a dick or is defensive about being a dick discourse I think he's probably a dick. Okay and revealed himself too much and that's what he's upset about, but I don't necessarily fault him for being upset that he had like a lunch with someone and they made like a pretty sweeping generalization about him as a person. So I could say it both ways. Isn't that the gig? Isn't that what you're signing up for to be generalized I guess so. But things just aren't going well for him in general. Isn't he in that Michael movie? He is with a very regretable hair. I' heard many people say that was a hit. a stoke cold hit, my man. I haven't seen it yet I suspect it's not a hit. Yeah. It's one of those audience score things. Speaking of which Mando Grogu saw that. An one of those audience score.other hit lot of to revisit the movie talking thing had some chatters who were just giving me a little commentary. They were like, where didd he go? Oh, there he is, like talking out loud like that during the movie. Anway Yeah. W to go to a break? Yeah, I feel like we should have done weather talk But that you got five minutes of quick letter box analysis? If that, Yeah, notot even pithy enough for letter box We're going to talk. Game six of one of the best series in recent history, Spurs Thunder. We're also going to talk about the Ks Making the NBA finals, but first we're going to talk about flopp it Right after this The Ringer NBA showh is brought to you by Fandul. The conference finals are here Think you know how it'll go down. takeake your shot with Fandle and get closer to the action. Fandle is the best place to bet the teams, players and plers during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fandle Sportsbook app now and play your game. twenty one plus select States, eighteen plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming, Gambling problem, callall one hundred gambler one eight eight eight, seven eight nine, seven seven seven or visit ccPg d. org Sashchat in Connecticut. So I get a text message from one of my cousins like every six months and it's always just like vaguely about MBA, what's going on there. It's like, so ab's not about to make it, huh? I was like, Yeahah, sure. okay, I'm sure you guys get this a lot. It's probably the de facto sports guy in your families. The one recently was about like the Thunder flopping and clearly like he may have watched maybe a game, but it's just like, man Thunder guys flop a lot, right? And it was at that point I came to the realization perhaps the Thunder's reputation, his broken containment not only past like MBA just zealots onto just sports fans in general to this next layer, like kind of the mom test where it's like just anybody out there who has any interest in sports whatsoever. Um, it feels like people are hopping mad Rob and it' For a while it felt like a very small group of people now it feels just like everybody to the point where it's like, this is the dominant I would say storyline of the playoffs is not for just the thunder overall Yeah, I mean, this is the flip side of the NBA escaping its regular season bubble. We talk all the time about like, oh, this is when you can make your name, you can become a different kind of star. I think Janis was one of these cases for years where it was like very popular, very well known among basketball people and then all of a sudden he's on the final stage and he's on sixty minutes and it's just like exploding in a totally different way But the same is true for the most negative things happening in the league or the most toxic discussions that are happening around the league. And so I am also getting those messages. I'm also getting like AI altered flopping videos in which people are now trying to debate and litigate the legality of what like computer generated, shhake Gld as Alexander is doing. So we have The train has left the station. We have left the planet. I don't even know what conversation we're having anymore, but it's clear that it's bigger and louder and in a lot of cases, more annoying in totally new ways There are pockets of the basketball internet that when they get mobilized radicalized, well, they're already radicalized because of their belief system in this case. And one of them is like the real Hooper corner of the internet, which is basically comes down to how well guys create their own shots and we've seen some of the most like incendiary versions of this where James Harden really is one of the guysy. I mean, Kobe is one of the, you know, you know, Rob, I know you hate Kobe. You'll probably want to weigh in on this since you don't think he was any good at all. But I said that No, uh, Shay has moved into this group. I think that's part of it. And then you get the other part of it where people just want to assume that basketball in the NBA just has terminal cancer in general. So you get the the anger of the purity of the game being just like screwed up like like anything there are littleuggets of truth here and there, but I think it's kind of coming together in this just cocktail of this fizzling cocktail of fury that I think Shay just is In my experience, I think there are a lot of people who maybe wouldn't necessarily just be pure Thunderfans objective down the middle. I like the Thunder and I kind of go by. I think there are a lot of people who just kind of Rat, you know latched on to this cause because Say's the type of player that they get riled up about in general because he scores points, things like that. And then there's the other part of it, Rob, like you were saying like it's like any other subject that is troublesome and today. It's just AI is making it. It's crazy what they can do. I don't you Justin might remember this in the tournament there was a play where a dude ripped the ball away from a Florida player. it was a kind of an aggressive play and somebody used AI to to make it look like he punched the guy and I watched it. I was like, oh my Godd, like so that's just making it worse too. So yeah, I think theres there's a lot of stuff going on to make the fires burn pretty This episode is brought to you by Accenture When your advertising operations fall out of sync, campaigns slow down, insights get buried, and opportunities get missed. That's why Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result, less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most To learn more, check out accccenture dot com slash sppotify h Yeah, I think there are three tiers to this that we could talk through here. and this is kind of like our big conversation we want to get into is like how much this is happening, like what is actually happening and how much ends up mattering. I think it's like is the rep warranted for the thunder overall? notot just sha, but also for the thunder. I think two, it's like what the perception kind of means for the thunder for the league at large, et cetera And three, I'm glad you guys mentioned this. It's like, what is actually real? We're getting to the point where like I've seen multiple people, Tom Habbrstra, I think I even saw Pina the other day, having to tell somebody that the stat they cited in order to try to dunk on them was hallucinated because they found it just via Google search and that search had just pulled something that was not real. And so That's a whole Bees nest, like bees nests on top of bees nest, there's like thirty bees nests there that I don't know how to get out of there alive from. But we just start first and foremost about just in general The Thunder as Fllowbaters, Rob, do you think like this is warranted It is somewhat warranted. It is very funny that we are having this conversation now though, because you know, Shay is at the center of this whole debate. He is in the spotlight as far as what he's willing to exaggerate to get a foul call I actually thought Game five was like one of his most restrained games in a long time and I went back and watched All of the fouls that he drew in that game, I would say there is like literally one that he actually got a call on that he aggressively sold Most of them he wasn't even falling over. The ones in which he was falling over, he was getting like very obviously felt. I'm not saying he's perfectly innocent. I'm saying this is a very funny time to be having this conversation But we have it because The merits have been consistent enough. I think it really boils down to the double standard between The way that the Thunder accentuate contact and the contact that they get away with defensively, it just whips people into a frenzy. And understandably, if you're a fan of an opposing team who that team is trying to play against and win against the Thunder and you're seeing marginal contact called one way, and you're seeing Lou Dort and Cason Wallace and Isaiah Hartenstein be really aggressive with your team's best scores Of course you're going to feel away about that. Of course you're going to be like a little bit furious about that Yeah, I mean, I think the broader basketball audience is viewing this as a bug as something that needs to be fixed and the Thunder are seeing what's possible. They know the rule book really well. They're seeing it as a feature. That is something that this is the way the game's called. You know, And as we've talked about on previous episodes, it goes on all over the place. Guys are getting hit, guys are big and strong and to it's and in a lot of situations, it's not that they didn't get hit. It's just that they want to get they want to sell the contact that they feel like happened. I mean, the Thunder a lot of times, you know, are very reachy. They're very they create turnovers. They want to do that. They get in there and they've gone and found a lot of guys who have like really accurate hand eye coordination on defense and they create those those turnovers. and that's a big part of what they do. But I think they're just kind of like I mean, the really egregious one, the one where like Fox comes down next to Sheay, that one was going around the internet. And I mean they like lost that game. So I don't really know and it's It's just interesting to me because There are ones that you can cherry pick. I feel like on both sides, you know, Wimby, you know, has gotten pretty good at this too. sure It's just a I think it's that's the that's the crux of it is that this is something that just kind of needs to be fixed and I don't know that it's going to make people any less mad about the Thunder, but it's one of the more like charged subjects that I can even remember because I just L the last game was was pretty egregious. I just felt like that third quarter stretch where there were like five or so calls in a row. That was borge. the Rs were screwing things up. Yeah see. And I just I just like blandly tweeted out like I never tweeted about the reps, but didn't say anything and the responses were just ridiculous. It was like, I was like You all don't even know what I'm talking about. and it's amazing just how ready to be rabbous people are about this subject. Look at you vague posting and then getting mad that people jump to conclusions, you know? Yeah You're really something, Kyle, man. Yeah. I do think that game I don't know if it was a flash point because you're right. This has been coming up time and time again. And my impulse is often to Acknowledge it, but ultimately just kind of move along from it. I think when you do what we do, refereering feels just more just like context. I know it matters and has an effect like depending on how someone refs a game on the ultimate outcome. but like I kind of ascribe it more to like weather and football where it's like if it's snow, it's gonna aect the game. I have no control over that. What do you want me to do? weatherather other justust can't help himself He's one step away from me, the old guy McDonald's looking at you when you walk in the front door. Man, those pancakes are sick. so that's actually not a bad outcome for my life. But this game did seem like those couple plays really set people off I think just the non challenge call was one thing. although I went back and watched it again today and like it didn't seem like he justraight the ref just straight up missed it. He was walking by him, running by him, but it just didn't seem like he acknowledged Miss Johnson doing this. Then you have the other side of this where it's like, maybe you have to call a time out before you get the challenge You literally do I was gonna say he was outside procedure. It's just, I think people were m they just shouldn't have had to be in a situation like that because of the obviousness. And how many times that part? If you were to go back, like how many times have have coaches got away with just doing the challenge call as opposed to the teed into the cc sort of thing? Like So like I could see that seems like a pretty Blatant mistake. I think the fact that it was bracketed by the goal ten call from Caseason Wallace one huge just the visuals of Tony Brothers like pointing at his wrist to call a foul on door. like he actually called the foul on doors. So it's not like he was getting him off, but like they were had a real like interplay like it was a real like like cutesy sort of moment between them. I think only like added fuel to that fire. Yeah. I thought Gamefy was like pretty poorly officiated. And Kyle, you mentioned it at that third quarter especially. Oh really, doctor? Yeah, okay. Well No, no, no, but this is the thing. It's like I thought it was poorly officiated, but that's a different conversation than like, o, OKC is flopping for these calls. Like the things that went there way were primarily other borderline bad admissed calls And so And yet, even though that is true, it still feeds into the fervor of this conversation. Like that is the stage that we've reached with all this where Truth is kind of marginal. It's all about the impressionistic outcome of these games and these events. And right or wrong, whatever you may feel is grounded or fair, like fans are coming away from these games feeling like the Thunder have an unfair advantage given the way the game is being officiated I think this has been my big takeaway from all of this stuff is like, Basketball fans have a lot of latitude for great defenses to defend physically, right? If you're the bad boy pistons, if you're the Gritt and Grnd Grizzies They they like people want to see physical assertive defense They just don't want to see it when that same team on the other side of the ball feels like it's getting away with something. And this is where it's like All of the discourse about physicality and all the discourse that's been brewing for like ten plus years about James Harden and fou baing and grifting and like you know, bringing your arms up through the contact. All of it is coalescing to me around Shay And he is like such a fascinating nexus point for this conversation in a bunch of different ways. For one. He has the ball in his hands at ton He drives more than almost anybody else in the sport. And so even if you were playing one hundred percent earnestly all the time in terms of negotiating contact, he would still get a lot of free throws But he also moves so counterintuitively in a way that iss just like it looks odd when he does get bumped off his spot And then I think the most crucial part of this that it really sets people off. is he has weaponized the like arm bar push offff in a way that almost no one else in the modern game has And so then it creates the space where He is allowed and offenseive players around the league right now are allowed to just bludgeon defenders with that offarm and completely shove them away. And then when they try to close the space to play actual defense Se or the shooter or whoever else will fall or they'll get in their landing space. and it'll be a fucking flagrant. Like it is an unnaavigable balance that we're putting defensive players in right now. And like that part has to change whatever you may think of all this See, I think it's Say as patient zero. You're right. and the arm bar thing seems to been widespread. I almost wonder if people saw Se getting away with it and just kind of accelerated. alm I almost wonder where like we'll get to the off season and people are talking about it as trying to legislate it out. I think it's that, but I also think it's being exposed to the rest of the team doing it. that the fact that it's more of a widespread thunder thing And I think like it also plays into best traits Whereas like you can see because of their meticulous culture and how dedicated they are to the finer details of things, the point where that's kind of become their perception, their identity to the league at large. they're kind of the nerds, who get everything right, but ultimately they get everything right and they're very good as a result of that You could see them being the team actually drilling this in and trying to get guys to do things. So when Chet does it, it's like, oh man, you should be better than that. or see McCain nail someone in the face, Harper, I believe it was and then like try to draw a foul like a few seconds later. It feels like it's a team wide thing. and that's one part of it I also think like we don't know overall what to make of the Thunder Like I don't think that they have a very clear identity if you're just casual sports fan. I think they're a very good successful team. I think Shay is a very good successful player. Obviously two time MVP, but they don't really inspire anything or there isn't like that like one quality you could latch on to. Shay's a pretty dunkaness as we've talked about in the past suuperstar. he's not like Anthony Edwards, he's not like excitable.'s not like there's not like a fery thing that you're just like, oh, that's that guy. And so I almost wonder if we're like searching around trying to find something, What we found is that like they're villains who try to get away with it, you know, where they're twisting their mustaches, trying to just get over on everybody else. And so I almost wonder if it's like filled the space with something. It just so happened to be something that just like really reflects poorly upon them. and then almost as a result, the NBA because of how prominent they are Yeah, other than this, what do you think the casual sports fan who is not tuning in for a turn of the regular NBA season What do they actually know about the Thunder? What else would they latch onto in that space Shay is like well kind of well known, but not Mega well known, notot like globally iconically well known in the way that a Lebron or a steph would be. I mean, I think there's probably a significant number of sports fans who like their greatest familiarity with the Thunder is like what a pro wants via commercials. L otherwise like where if you know college basketball, then you've seen some of these guys before, maybe you have a general sense that they're very successful and certainly that they won the title But it is odd that for a team that's been this good already for this long that they don't have these clear signifiers of identity that do transcend our kind of discourse around the league. That's not just for people who are absolutely living and dying with this stuff every day. but that might actually be translatable to a broader audience I think the Spursian thing that you hit on is pretty key because if you think about at the core of this, like how they go about their business, how they curate their people, how they kind of circle the wagons and try to control. They don't have a lot of high kind of drama guys. grranted, the Spurs over the years would mix in Stephen Jackson or whatever it was just to kind of have good teams, But you know, if you look at the way that the Thunder handle their business, I think that That's there are a lot of parallels. You know, you mentioned Duncan and I think I think there's something to that and talking to just like what it is about them that like isn't super maybe marketable to the, you know, the broader audience, the broader part of the world. I mentioned how, you know, there is like the real Hooper sort of subscription to the way that she plays, but I don't know that that is Jordan is like, you know, the all time example of that. You know, Kobe emulated it and there was like a gracefulness and a flying around and an above the rim kind of quality of the way he did a lot of that stuff that had kind of there was there was a beauty and form thing that really appealed and was super marketable and honestly, you know, the most marketable athlete of all time. But I think with She, it's just They're not playing They play a smart brand of basketball. they play if if you watch like last night, there were a lot of really pretty basketball sequences. And if you lean in and look at at the details of their execution and stuff, there's a lot of stuff to really appreciate that distracts that is distracted from by the foul stuff. But I think that we talked a little bit about this that Shay's isolation style since it starts with him It stays with him for so long. It's really dependent on him creating his his offense and stuff like that. I think at the heart of it, maybe that is just a little harder to grasp ono, you know, it's just like it's not like a pop song that you can snap your finger to, you know, immediately. It's just it's a little oblique in a way that maybe I think is harder and he's really quiet. I think that's the other part of it sureure it back to the first part On that sppurs front, I do think it's been kind of lost at time that like in that moment, I would say especially like the mid to late two thousands The Spurs had a rampant reputation of being floppers. Like Manu Gnobi, this was a huge part of the conversation. This super reminiscent. suuper reminiscent. And it's all gotten kind of sanded down and I would say especially like the beautiful game version of the Spurs that a lot of younger fans will be more familiar with than the earlier models, but like Bruce Bowen is very much of a piece with this version of The Thunder, right? Like incredibly intense physical defense and then like bait and flopping and drawing charges the other way. So it's like Even Tim Duncan for as like revered and silent and kind of like professional as his reputation is now, for a long time was like pleading his case Luca style after every single call. This is who these guys were in the moment. It's just we lose some of that to history and they become this like Again, like very smoothed out iconic version of what the actual reality was. and I wouldn't be surprised if some version of that happens with the Thunder overver Time too. I think you're right that it's been sanded down because there was gigantic these fucking guys energy back then when it was like every year you were just like, God, they're still like they how are they wet you know, they remember they were the they were the wet blanket on everybody's favorite you know, a thing everybody's favorite story of two thousand was it six or seven when the, you know, this the Steve Nash sppurs they knock them out. It was just like God the sppurs a, you know, I think there's just a lot of similarity there. and I don't know that, I don't really know if I've heard that talk about iton to be honest This episode is brought to you by Nas Energy Introducing new NS ennergy Grand Prix Guava For those that want to be fueled up and fired up with one hundred bound hour tropical tasting power. Iignnite your taste, start your engine Sift your flavor to high gear with new Nas Eergy Grand Prix Guava Hit the street, grab a can and get after it. Well, I think that dovetails nicely with kind of where we are as a media culture too. L I made a reference the other day about like the clilippers, not the team the cllipper, but like the social media clippers and how it's like soleowly taking over the world. And then there's that New York magazine piece. and now I'm just at the point where it's just like, is geese like a popular band? Do they actually exist? Are they AI It really snowballed very quickly to I'm really questioning all that's happening. Yeah. you're telling me when you brought that up, you hadn't already read the piece that story had been out No, I hadn't. It was second day or two before I'm, Are you getting New York magazine to your place or something like that? Maybe you're like ahead of the game. It had already gone like a full round or two around the you know, the controversy train. Like You're not giving me enough credit for how on the ball I am when it comes to clippers, my friend. I think you have your finger on the pulse of a lot of things, but like Looks maxing clipping is maybe not one Yeah. Justin writing his Hubspot email newsletter and coming in here and ritling it off as say. No, I brought it up. I don't know how much I could say about this, but I brought it up because there's actually a sports podcast that you guys would know about that had used clippers to their success in order to inflate their numbers. I why I definitely need to talk about this We could talk about that all aair That's why I b. name name Yeah But I'm at the point now where I am starting to question everything that's happened. att the very least, and I think we are keenly aware of this being in the podcast field. like things are being processed almost entirely via clips anymore. We've gone from nobody reads anymore. so we'll get the aggregation and only read that to like nobody will listen to a podcast. We only listen to the thirty minute clips. we'll see scrolling through your phone, whatever And I do think if you're thinking about the Thunder, a team that you will be seeing, if you're in NBA, Twitter or whatever all the time, like what is the most marketable like thing that's going to like feed clips and engagement and all this other stuff in the engagement economy? It's like it's probably this. It isn't really just like some spectacular plays. like there's they do a lot of that stuff, Se. abbsolutely. Heaters all the time. But like the thing that I think about constantly that would get the most like emotional engagement and excitement is probably this. It's probably preying on the fact that they seem to be manufacturing their way to success And so like I think we have to reconcile it sounds like very heady in almost like two thousand one in a lot of ways, but like I do think like this is probably driven to a large degree by people who are purely trying to cast them as something in order to get engagement in order to like make money off of that because of ways that I wish I knew because I would love a piece of that action. Maybe there's still time for you and for us to really hit it big on the clipping market. but Just to be clear, when you're saying this idea that they are manufacturing their success, that's the impression given by these clip farms, right? That's not you saying that Yes, just like if you only watch them in twenty minute bites, you're probably only seeing them flopping their way to something or maybe flopping their way A fake flopping made out of AI. So it looks like there's more contact than there was I do think too, like we're only having this conversation because they're an awesome team And I think it comes from Yes, the idea that they are drifting their way to the top is certainly an impression that people have, but there's also even for the people who are watching all of these games, every second of these games and S seeing the Thunder in actction, If you have a rooting interest in the other team It's coming from the frustration of like this is a hard team to beat and then all of this on top of it. And it's like, you know that the third quarter, fourth quarter run is coming And yet they still get all of these benefits of the doubt, or at least real or perceived in other ways. And it's like That combination, I think really just intensifies the feelings that people have when it's you have you're seeing something in front of you that looks wrong or looks like an injustice coupled with your real actual sense of like hopelessness at your team beating this team You can see how one would just like absolutely feed the fire of the other Yeah. I mean, it can feel a little bit irrational when you're in the moment that the hopelessness, but when you zoom out, you don know we have gone into this about The way that they've been able to be so dominant with their talent acquisition, it's just kind of like it's really not that surprising that they continue to come in waves and they have all this handler depth that the sppurs don't have that they can sustain losing in AJ Mitchell and a Jalen Williams and still go have a Jared McCain that they just They are very smart and they're a few steps ahead on a lot of different fronts, but I think in the basketball sense when you're just talking about you know, combining the the lack of marketability of the isolation thing that I was just describing with the fact that they very tediously want to win the possession game. Dg Nault has said it repeatedly. He's like, you know, we want to win the turnover margin. We want to win the rebounding margin and we want to get to the free throw line And those things You know, that's just kind of It's not the sexiest version of basketball. You know, I don't know that's going to charge up, you know, little Timmy that's trying to get into the sport and he's shooting in his driveway. It's like, man, I'm so excited to see if they win, you know, the deflection margin in this game or how many times they get to the fouline It's just like It It's smart and that's the thing. It's not sexy, but like the things you just described, like that's Dean Oliver four Factors basasketball. Like it is the crux of what drives winning in professional sports. And so Yeah, it may not be sexy Maybe over time it will become more sexy as there is like a mythology that grows around a version of the Thunder that repeats or continues to win or a version of Shade that just like keeps doing this in terms of putting up points over and over and over I just think we're going to get softer about this stuff. I think people are going to get used to it or the rules will change And ultimately people are going to turn I think positively, I think the fervor of this conversation can last. like I disagree. I think people are gonna continue to sour. And if anything, I think their perception has almost like metastasize has really harden. And if anything, like I think the spurs provide a nice little counter. We'll see because it's funny because we talk about how Game five is like the worst possible scenario for this Weemy literally sent the goons out there after Jared McKay. Okay alleged. not alleg notgly. Allegedly, I guess, but Ply also got hit with a flager one after the fact this morning and so They were interesting that you said hardened you used that word. Rob, I'm curious though, how do you think this is going to come about that this is going to swing positive? I hear it's three step plan. It doesn't require three steps. It requires two steps, which is one, we are here now, two steps and far in the future, people get bored of this stuff and stop talking about it. Like I really do think a lot of this stuff just fizzles out When you think about the biggest controversies in the NBA over the last twenty years, how many do people really still feel so intensely about? I think you're right that people will get bored of it, but I don't know if people will move off of it and the fact that the thunder are going to probably be so prominent only dredges it back up in these sorts of times Um I have a hard time thinking that people will think differently of them It might shift from I'm super pissed and this is like front of mind to just like that's probably where it'll end up. in that sense, if that is I think it's the difference between hitting the brakes and letting off the gas, I think probably Rob, you know, But both you know, like harden people still feel that way. It's just they kind of got tired of talking about it with his History is just so long. like Michael Jordan was the petulant child once and then he became like so did no one could possibly like ever disparage him? Like I think I think your sppurs comp is dead on. and if I'm thinking back on it, the reason why the sppurs changed from what you're describing to some to team that where you appreciate the beauty of the basketball and it was a little bit more light win LeBron became the villain in Miami they were the counter to that. So perhaps something like that can happen M they win just so much that like they're just impervious to any sort of criticism. But I don't know, when something gets that big, people just want to knock it down even more. That's why we have literally the crying Jordan meme is that like he was just so successful and cameame so successful.'s like anything that pierced that was like where we found the counter. And so It's going to take something like that Honestly I really I think that would certainly help. I don't even think it's going to take that. We were just talking about how people's attention span can't even last the full extent of one podcast. And you think they're going to go five years feeling this way? I just I don't believe that to be true of human nature to say nothing of the thunder Arc of Shea is so interesting to me because, you know, I was dialed in on this pretty early and this isn't like a hipster thing. It just mattered of being like proximity. I was here. obbviously everybody knows K Kentucky Ky, whatever it is all that that hyperbole, whatever it is characure of myself But like Shay was here and I watched him from a moment one and he had a really aesthetically nice game. And I think he still does. It's just this is really Interesting how S' irregular movements and his scoops and his long high glass finishes and things like that. It was just like like there would be some just You know, like your reaction to a nice like jazzlick kind of thing. was like, damn, that was sweet. it's really morphed over time in a way where I maybe this is he didn't have this stuff in his game when he was playing here. He didn't have a lot of the hurkey jerky pull up from two stuff. And I guess as he's incorporated that and balanced it out Um, It's just become somethingomet that's just kind of like swallowed the entire talking point about him the conversation He just needs little Timmy's like an army of them to come and just shape his entire narrative with just a bunch of clips. five dollars a pop. You get me fifty thousand views of me just looking like a cool guy I'll do that, honestly, five dollars offer. You'll be somebody's clipper? No, I mean, I need the clippers. Ohh, you're just putting an offer out on Fiverr right now to get some far chat There's some farm out there that'll take you up on that Justin. You're not too Listen, you're not too much of a lost cause Hell Evven. F dollars for anybody How that motiv? I'm trying to take over the world, baby. Now I really need to know who this other podcast is that you were talking about. I can't believe Howard Beck would do that with Real Oes where he would just really put really underhandedly try to goose the numbers like that. Talk about a grrifter, Howard Beck, notorious. All right, why don't we take a quick break? we come back, we need to talk about what happened in the previous game and what it means. For game six The Ringer NBA Show is brought you by Fand. Fandal is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. With more ways to build and more value every time you play, you could stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup, and every moment. From spreads to player points to threes and more Build it all into one same game parlleay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA post season, bet them on Fandl. more options, better payouts, all NBA playoffs long. So we're looking tohead to the next matchup between the Thuers and the sppurs. So we're talking sppurs at home. They're giving three and a half point Tough one. I ultimately think the Thunder win the series, but I like the spurs bouncing back in games six. They're at home, seemeems like that matters. seemeems like the role players play better. there also thir and a half. I don't think that matters the margin at all because some of the Final Scores have been quite large in terms of margin, so just give me the team I think who's going to win. and that's the sppurs minus three and a half in game six. Head to fandal dot com slash ring your NBA to get started. Fandal, official partner of the NBA. Play your game. twenty one plus Lx States, eighteen plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming, gambling problem callall one eight hundred gambler. callall one eight eight eight seven eight nine seven seven sevenenty seven or visit ccpG dot org slash chat Cnecticut All right, we talked about kind of the long view with the Thunder, how they might be around here for a while. I kind of feel like this series is coming down to perhaps how the Thunder have takaking the long view overall in this series as opposed to perhaps the Spurs who In that fourth quarter last night, it just felt like they ran out of gas. Part of it, I think it was they spiraled out after the no call and the no challenge call that they didn't get. likeike the cell had the fall quickly and then they it was a ten point game going into the fourth quarter. I think the game was still hanging in the balance. but at no point did I think that the sppurs were ever going to come back in that. felt like Wemby just physically was just spent And it felt like overall, the team just like didn't have anything in order to come back from it. I have to wonder if the Thunder's main advantage in this series, especially with two of their primary creators out in JW and AJ Mitchell, is the fact that they leveraged their depth so successfully And I almost wonder if like they've lost a couple battles along the way, but Rob, if they're winning the war overall because they just seem like the more fit team for the moment to win a war of attrition. Yeah, I mean, they are overwhelming over any long enough timeline and they do need some things to go their way, right? They need a three point shooting n like this, especially after the cold one in game four. They need someone to come in off the bench or in this case to be started like Jared McCain did and just be like an absolute flamethrower during a critical stretch of the game I do I saw what you saw too in terms of the spurs kind of petering out But I think that may fast forward pass like the fact that for the first two quarters of this game, Victor Webinyama was like functionally invisible And there are many reasons why that's true. I would say the biggest is the Thunder defefense did an incredible job of like crowding him within like strangling out every bit of space in the paint and around the basket for Wemby, stopping him from getting any momentum towards the basket, stopping him from establishing post position at all or getting any of his roles that were so easy for him in game one And they did it without like a lot of size in a lot of cases. you know, Isai Hartnstein's out there, Chet's out there Jayalen Williams is out there. It's not like they don't have bigs But some of the plays that were really disruptive for Wimby were like Caysason Wallace digging down at the exact right time when Wimby would try to spin and make something happen. and all of a sudden He's throwing off his rhythm the play goes tout, like everything goes goes to shit But Thunderridge is really good at doing stuff like that and it's one of the reasons why you can't count them out of any series or any game or any stretch. Like that is going to be the baseline expectation for Oklahoma City basketballs. like they are going to be so endlessly disruptive that it's going to take a mental toll on you. and that may manifest in the fourth quarter. It may manifest in the first after you've been doing this for four games And it may manifest over the course of five games. There are like the in the moment things that the spurs can do or the thunder can do. and then there arere the things over the course of the series that we're seeing unfold. And you know, whenever you say, Ohh, Wimby was tired, that would feel like a like handwave thing for it would could be taken as a diminishment of like what the Thunder were able to do, but they're responsible for that. And I think that's the thing. is's like, you know, you start to see Wimby go from the thing that he would revert to or settle on. I know Kirk talked a lot about this earlier in the year when he was talking about his shot chart in the past couple years as opposed to this year. It's just that we started to see Wimby huing a little bit facing up, shooting the ball. And when Wimby's hunting it a little bit, I'm like, oh no, you know, it's like it's fake, fake terror where I'm like maybe thosell go in. but as we've talked about, there's a huge difference between him getting to the rom a few times and then hitting a three where you're just like Jesus Christ. But when he's when he is settling a lot, it's a way more favorable game to be playing because as good of a shooter as he is He's not elite, as we've said. But I think they did a really good job in the ways that you talked about, Robert. You know, Keeping him out of the paint, he just looks really tired. He's not able to get there. I went and look this up. you know, whenever Wimby's paint touches go under twenty per game, which it's kind of been like clockwork in games two and three in both games, he only got twelve paint touches with the ball. And then in game five, he got seventeen and all three of those were losses. Anytime he got above twenty Okay. he lost the game. That was really and there were some, you know, areas where in the details they were good about that. Hardenstein dominant in the you know, we're talking about the live ball events in the game You know, whether it's getting a rebound, a deflection, whatever it is, he was dominant. But he did a really good job of and people used to play Kareem like this where with Kareem it was about Karem going in a straight line towards the rim making his initial move because you don't want Karem with momentum coming over your back getting an offensive rebound. And if you watch Hartenstein did a really good job of like forcing Wimby away towards the baseline and then he's not in position to go get offensive rebound. So I think all of those things small and large kind of played took the wind out of their sails on offense. There's a lot more we can get to, but that was a big one Yeah, I'm glad he brought up Karam there because the one thing I was wanting from Wemby in this one was something in that middle game that he can go to where if he wasn't going to get right at the basket, like Where is that next level to basically having a counter to that where it's like Isaiah Herenstein push shot or like a little floater range shot, or perhaps even a sky hook in order to perhaps take advantage of that. I mean, literally the sky hook would probably work for him considering that nobody's gonna ever be able to consess that Overall, this was like one of the first games I was left wanting of Weemb, not being like being able to hit that one hundred percent elite level of you have the counter to everything that throws out there. If they're going to physically take you out of the game, like what's the next thing you go to? Yeah. There wasn't anything like beyond the basket We had three makes at the basket It wasn't anything in that middle range. and also felt like there was't he wasn't like dissecting anybody with the way he was processing or thinking things. That's also like a next level he can get to. If anything, it felt like he was taken out of like the mental game to the point where he didn't do reporters after the fact. seemeemed like he was really shaken to the point where he did say something to Plumley and Beyonda before they got on the court and so It felt like he was a twenty something still figuring things out Yeah, which is saying something had took this long to get there, but like For the first time, I'm like, Damn, this might be the last hurdle, and I don't know if he can solve for that Yeah, I think With where his game is, most of the cerebral aspects of his play are going to be on defense. right? Like that's where he's affecting the game the most.'s where he can impose his will the most and most broadly And you can see those Isaiah Hardstein push shots are like slowly but surely hugging Wimbi out of his preferred positions deeper into the paint. And with that space I don't think it's an accident that The funder wedge Wemby out from the rim a little bit And in particular, Alex Caruso and Kaysason Wallace all become like really activated drivers, right? Like they are all the driving kick engine of who the Thunder are is suddenly put into a higher gear. They're now kicking out into better cleaner threees. The real players are hitting those shots. It just feels more like their usual offense as a result And To the extent that he can do a cerebral thing on offense or like really move chess pieces that force the thunder to respond It is a tandem activity. Like he doesn't have the ball in his hands. And so the cerebral aspect of his game has to be linked to Stefan Castle has to be linked to Der and Fox who is I mean, just playing through excruciating pain pretty clearly with that ankle like he is grrimacing and wincing every time he tries to make an aggressive move Dylan Harper, I thought played his most invisible game of this entire playoff run so far, was just phased out of large portions of it, especially on offense And so he's reliant on those guys to make those entry passes, to get him those touches, to make like pinpoint precise playays through the most aggressive defense in the league to get him the ball where he needs it. There's some ways in which he has control over that, and we can talk about those and how he can be more aggressive and where he can be looking for his offense a little bit more But he's also just going to be dependent on these guards to be equally as cerebral as he is for any of that stuff to work ricking down a defense of this level Yeah, I mean, he can roll and go into the paine all he wants, but if the guards aren't, you know, the guards are just really bad. I mean, like we had this written down here. I mean Between let's see, Viscell Fox Wimmy and Harper combined for eleven to forty six. So you know, just under twenty four percent from the field, But then you know Harper Harper with the aductor thing on the inside of his legs. I'm sure he's just not able to sort of do a lot of the like lunging lateral stuff that he normally likes to do. Fox just doesn't have the same kind of violent separation that he depends on. and that is not a place you want to be when you're being guarded by the OKC deffenders. You mentioned something though on the other side on, you know, OKCs side of the ball. I don't think that Wimby looks as rangey and quick defensively right now. There are a couple where he he wasn't getting the things that I was like he kind of was earlier in the playoffs or earlier in this series even. Something OKC is doing. you'll hear people talk about Nashing, which is like not like not like G in, but just Steve Nash where It's not purely driving kick, it's where you keep your drivel alive to the get the shot blocker's head on the other side of the rim basically, so that he isn't able to sort of like rotate quickly. You're just moving him and then So it's sort of like a An idea that you don't just like linear at the end of your drive pass it at the end of it. You alive and then move. And I think they have been able to successfully move him and allow their driving game to work. So it's a type of driving kick, but I just wanted to add that on that they've had A lot of success with that, I think I feel the same way though that I kind of felt about the Thunder after the previous game where it's just like one team just looks overmatched and it has been a weird like where the first two games have been like pretty. battles going to the end and then the past three have been pretty decisive U And so I'm a little cautious about being overreactive, but I think you guys are right, especially about some of the guard play Harper I have down here like he had five field goals made in game two. He's had five since. And if they don't have that, if Fox is going to look pedestrian, if he's going to be hobbled I do wonder if like if this is just a big old battle where we're just dealing with who is going to be the most healthy. I have to worry about the spurs not having that because it just feels like the Thunder have more moves. And I think part of that was McCain just starting in his first start Booking great And just that guy's energy just seems to buoy them in particular moments. I loved how the fact that like even after getting like crushed by by the two Bh bros as they into the game, he like had a good spirit about it. And then Caruso basically being able to turn to your like best Pimier defender who you don't ask a lot of all of a sudden just handling the ball more. He was third and usitraight in that game and just like Oh, we could just toggle these guys on. It's just like these aren't just regular three ind D role players, like they just have so many more wrinkles and so I do wonder Rob, if like if it comes down to this, like it just feels like the Thunder can mine more where it's like whatuff with thepurs It's just like, I don't know, Keldon Johnson just like feels feels like they're helping off him even more. There's just not as many things to go for because their top level is so talented. Yeah, this was a lot of Keldin Johnson, especially down the stretch. It's like he's think need more Keldin. You think theying to say. I mean, maybe given that that's true, but that's a bad state of affairs. if the answer is we need more Keldon Johnson Whata he was Well I was just going to say he was like one of the lone bright spots in the game and they have barnes in there. know mayaybe it's some you just roll the ice and hope that Carter Bryant can not kill you with like mental mistakes. That's one thing. you you need his physicality in there that But another thing too that we haven't really touched on is the fact that I mean, they're just mercilessly attacking Fox and Chimpinny Sim Pinny, blesses heart man. you got to be a little less obvious with your illegal screens. Those were just backbreakers critical times. You know, we talked about the spurs or we talked about the Thunder with their' selling calls. It was just the Spurs had a lot of self inflicted irrors in this game that if they clean those up U You hate to oversimplify to say they need guys to play better, but Justin, I think you're right about like this is probably if you I think you can oversimplify and just say that they are not in the position to sustain the loss of even to have a hobbled fox, you know ving Having Jared McCain out there to do some world class spackling which just insult to injury that that the spurs can't survive and it speaks to KC's depth And not just world class backling, but Justin, I think you're right about the spirit that Jared McCain plays with. Like there is there's an effervescence to him that is really important to the Thunder that brings like the juice of a run that brings a different kind of energy, like he has Un unusual cadence to his game and clearly is really explosive also just like gives them an emotional lift, in a way that Like to be totally honest, Keelon Johnson does a version of that too. Like he comes in and gives them a different kind of energy than the rest of the lineup does But the reason that San Antonio was A great regular season matchup for OKC that they look so dangerous in the series is that their three guards allowed them the precision to pierce through all of this like layered intense defensive coverage. And if these guys are playing in the way that they did in game five, if they're only physically capable of that I just think it's going to be a really tough proposition to really break the thunderd with any consistency on defense. on offenses, rather I like how we're talking about McCain as if he's like a dish that Stanley Tucci is preparing a lot of lemon sprits going on here.amn. I mean. See, you're trying to spend five dollars apiece on cliff farms. I'm trying to like put all that money in the piggy bank so we can get tooucci for one episode to just like describe shit. So you know, ourur budgets are being spent differently, but we'll see who comes out on top See you next one? I don't I actually don't know if he has a team or not look at He's a Palelbancaro fan. I would do a Nix a Stanley Chucci pre game, you know, set the stage narrative thing I think would be pretty good. He'd bring some stillness to it, get your make the hair in your arm stand up I could sure we have that in the budget. Yeah. And if not, we have AI Stanley Tucci now, donon't even worry about. Oh Yeah, there we go. There we go Banduchci? Yeah If the series ended after last night's game This Gruszo win NVP? What? E a Crusa's great And look, there are minutes where he comes in and it's like He was the best player on the floor for five straight minutes She had She had what she had thirty two and nine in that game in a huge Not super efficient I'll say, notot super efficent I'm going to be on off the series. I don't care how efficient it was. like he They needed him to be assertive in a way coming off of game four that it was going to lead to some of this. Maybe not the peak of efficiency, but completely essential in what he was doing This is a little This is one of those like granular dorky things to bring up. But I feel like Shay has had some success with not so much hopping backwards, but bumping and moving to his left, like moving side to side, which and it's he's had some success like evading Wimby with that shot. He did on the baseline on one. I will say too Harper has been this weird back and forth where he had some inc he had one sequence where he was incredible Garden Shay. I don't know if that Shay was just trying to pick on him and just kept running into a wall Yeah, if Shade It would definitely be like an ggy winning over stuff type thing if Cer so w will not win Caro. He's awesome. He will not win Cru doing it I saw a lot of momentum from actual voters for Caruso. N names. Who are we talking about What you just se people? I really want to get into the dirt. I' like a dois over here for MBA discourse. I just think if you put a ballot in someone's hands for conference Finals NVP Yes, I love Alex Caruso and I'm sure there are people who would say they would vote for him on a podcast. will I want to see the ballots. What really great in this series overall. He's had some tough moments, but he's been really good. Sure. What about this? We give the the Conference finals MP trophy to the star. Th thenen we gave a smaller but cooler trophy to the guy we actually want to give it to, but we because we're all cowards. What are we calling that So if the big trophy is who is it on the east side? Is it? it's not Mike of the sort of the golden globes You know, this actor kind of like right Yeah. If I don't know who they put in the trophy for East Finals MVP, but if it's Jordan, like maybe this one is of Horace Grant, you know? Like got the goggles on them and everything like that Are they both the m No, it's the Larry Bird Tro the Magic Johnson T show. So does it need to be a Celtic or does it just need to be another Eastern Ccept? Eedr Maxwell. Yeah. Yeah Cornbread Maxx Wellell, let's make it that one. I'm not that to Cruso, because Rob can't give himself to give him the big one Yeah I am indeed the problem, but Alex Alex Cruso is to the surprise of no one, fucking ballen. I have no idea what it is that determines the fact that his shots don't go in the regular season than every three does in the playoffs The rest of it though, makes sense. L he's just an incredible multifaceted defender. And in this case, Justin you nailed it like the ball handling in terms of what the Thunder can tap into. It's just something that like not a lot of Qote unquot, defensive specialists have that you're plugging it off the bench. You're not tasking them with that kind of responsibility, He's the guy who they flash to the middle of the zone. He's the guy who can play impromptu a point card. He's the guy who they can, you know, free shay up to make these sort of like, you know, Iverson style cuts. trigger him into the offense in a different way Having a player like that in the post seies is just absolutely invaluable. I think it also helps that like the spurs don't have as much collective size. And so like you don't really need to dig into your bench they brought out Kenr Rich Williams and he played really well that game. but like you don't need to throw out all big lineups and go into the Wiggins minutes and all these other guys. They have those guys if you want to, but like you could really lean into your strengths, which are these feisty Ball handling defensive gus that they could just toggle on into something else offensively U Cious what you guys think about going into this next game. Obviously a huge one You you feel in one way or the other or do you feel like there's like something low hanging for the spurs that taped into that they didn't in this previous game I don't know that there's anything low hanging. There are ways in which like some of the complications in just getting Weimby the right kinds of touches. I think are just gonna to be what they are. Like it's going to be crowded. It's going to be difficult to get him the kinds of game one relentlessly rolling to the rim type stuff all the time. It's not going to be there Weirdly enough, I think if Wimby plays in game six a little similarly to the way that Chet played in game five which is to unburden your brain a little bit from the expectations of playing perfect team basketball. likeike you don't have to be the good soldier all the time I thought part of the reason Chet was so successful offensively in game five was he would catch the ball like for example, get an offensive rebound It's like a little bit crowded around him in a way where he can't get a layup But he would just take like a little turnaround jumper and nail it. And it's like that's a good enough spot. And the deeper you get into a series The more you have to be willing to accept good enough opportunities, and it's not always going be You know, uncontested dunks over smaller defenders. It's not always going to be pull ups in which no one could possibly contest your shot Sometimes it's just to be like, are you willing to take a turnaround from eight feet from ten feet. Are you willing to pull up on a mid range jumper that's like not within your offense, not within your muscle memory in terms of what you've been doing all season But if D Earin Fox is hampered and Dyan Harper is hampered and Stefan Castle is like hounded by defenders This is going to be it what it takes to win. Is you're just going to have to make enough of these sort of impossible or at least sort of improbable shots in order to tilt the balance of the offense This kind of feels like a bet big and maybe lose everything type thing where we're like dare in the house to to take us because this goes back to what I was saying at the beginning where it's like if Wimby is forcing his own offense, you know What form is that going to take? because he's going to get worn down trying to get to the if it's him facing up from you know three point line. he's going to get clawed at. you're going to get into that sort of catch twenty two of we need to do this, but also this is going to be the thing that wears down our superstar player I would be a little bit worried about doing that for sure. But what's the alternative? I think could be it could be a case of like where he's facing up from, but you know, you were also kind of courting more of the same thing. It's like, is this sort of a like do we want Windy taking three dribbles and trying to get to the room or do we want him taking one? Maybe it could be a case of that intrigue to see Winby add like a dirk shot at some point, granted. I don't know that I want somebody that big fading away, but it would be absolutely unblockable. I don't know if he could ever add that. I just think ultimately man, u the state that the and this is a shame because I really wanted to see both of these teams at full strength, you know going throwing haymakers and we've gotten to game six. so can't complain too much hasn't been a super pretty series. I just feel like I'm going to stay I think I said Thunder and six originally, maybe Thunder and seven. It's just going to be such a colossal task even if they get game six Um, Thunder at home, I feel like we're probably gonna to find a way to get it done I do find myself like like relying on pretty cliche things where it's just like Home court advantage, like role players play better at home as opposed on the road. like those things do seem to be mattering in a series where the margins are so thin here and also just like If you have a medical degree can tell me if Jn Fox is going to show up in a given game, that does matter a lot. I'm glad he brought up Chet though. It did feel like, especially after we kind of dogged him in the previous games. I did feel like he had the type of game where he was more aggressive and it didn't push him to a different tier, but he was just like the best version of what you wouldd expect from him at this point, where like he was turned away at the basasset a couple times, but then he was still going at Weemby in a way that I thought was productive overall. And so like if you could just be your fourth option and just be the best version of that Disappointing in the broader scheme of things, but overall in this series, still a helpful player if you could turn the keys over to Carus own. other guys to do that. Now, can you expect that every game from a Ciso type or some of the other guys that they got there? I'm not sure But at the very least, like that felt like a stabilizing performance for Cet that perhaps that they they can build a Yeah, I think if it say that the three point shooting for the Thunder hadn't gone quite the way it did Chet's performance would have felt I think even more decisive in giving the Thunder like a small but marginal lead over the spurs. And the shooting is what broke it open. and that's where You know, if the Thunderers shoot something closer to even their playoff average, this is at least a game down the stretch. This is at least within reach in a way that it, you know clearly wasn't or at least the Spurs didn't want to exert the energy to make it so in the fourth quarter I hate that it boils down to that, but it really does, and the shooting on both sides can be like just spotty enough that it leaves so much of an opening. I think really what I'm saying is like this series has been closed the whole way, Even though you have what feel like decisive wins for both teams I just really don't think in their current states, either of these groups are demonstrably better or worse than each other. All right, let's take one more break, comeome back, talk a little bit about the Eastern conference champion, New York Knickerbackers S is brought you by Amazon Prime. Ever find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last minute party, a spontaneous date, or even that impromptu game night at home? That's when Prime's same day delivery swoops in That essential item you thought you'd missed delivered. The plan save the win Secured Because with Prime, same game delivery, you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by, sameame game delivery. It's on Prime. Visit ammazon. com slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast. available in select areas, terms apply All right, the next They've done it They're back in the NBA finals None of us have a pulse on New York and frankly, like I feel weir'd trying to gauge one because New York is such a specific place that if you try to talk as if you have any knowledge about it, people will say mean things about you U You sound like you're speaking from experience, Justin. have you Have you been out of school I hear some talk No, if anything, we're cool I'm down. Because I know my place, right? Oh wow, okay Well, I kind of feel like the Ns oddly enough for a team in The biggest media market in the world, perhaps, or at least among them, just getting back into the finals feels at this point just not as full throated as you'd expect, probablybably because there's so much momentum on the Western bracket where it's like, this is one of the best series we've seen lately But Yeah, just feels a little underplayed. And perhaps maybe that's part of it. is's just like only certain people can talk about the nicks and we just don't have any enough of them in our pod circles, you know? I'm not sure that's the case, but I do feel like we're getting there now. Up until they officially punched their ticket to the finals, it felt like Nicks fans collectively were trying to insist to themselves and all of us to like Be cool, stay quiet, like we'll believe this when it happens Now that it's happened, I think the volume has risen pretty substantially. It may not be comensate with what you may think a Nick trip to the like to the potential championship would look and sound like. There have been times and there even like recent or somewhat distant history where it was like Iman Schumt being a Nick was like the biggest story in the NBA for some reason. Like they they've had a way of turning these like minute details into national headlines And yet here we are, they they' like fought and clawed their way to get here. They've been unbelievably dominant over the course of their playoff run. and it's been quiet until now, but now I think we're finally giving them the coronation that they so richly deserve. I think it's been enough of a drought and New York is enough of they've gone through enough where I think only the the only real grumbling, I think you're going to hear are from people probably directly like in their division that just Nick fans or have some like deep seated rivalry. I'm sure like Philly isn't enjoying this. I'm sure, you know but you're just not hearing it. But I think in the broader kind of feel good basketball atmosphere, the vibes are just so good. It felt like a it felt like a flip back to the Bing Bong movement, you know, on social when that was just like everybody can get behind this. This feels good They're riding in the streets, they're running and like I don't it didn't get too crazy. We didn't get to like flipping cars or setting stuff on fire. D? It didn't get that way. They're acting like they here becausecause they were here last year or they're at least close to it. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. so I think there's enough positivity to just get behind it for now. Now if they come back, people make it, there may be some, you know, this freaking guy kind of energy, but for now everybody feels good, I think. Yeah do have like the spirit of a small market team coursing through them because they've just gone through so much emotional turmoil, like for the past for decades. like it's a very long time It also is the type of thing where it's like, yes, they're a big market team and yes, they're insufferable in certain ways, but they're also amazing fans. Like it's similar to Lakers fans where it's like those people are absolute fucking insane, but they're insane because they're so passionate and they're very devout about watching a lot of things. people Perhaps at the games because those tickets are so overpriced at this point that no normal person can afford to go to them. But like Nicks and Liers fans, some of are the best fans in the world, I would say. What has gotten into you today? Big market boy all of a sudden. Not only big market boy, but like just giving big ups to fan bases, I don't even know who I'm talking to I talked to some you were talking about, you know how people in our job, you're sort of the touch pointo for all things basketball. and when they, you know, you people just sometimes will just like diarrhea, bunch of all the mainstream takes to you all at once. I have people like that in my life, but I had some people who were talking about they just casually like basketball in the broad sense don't go see anything. they were like, we're thinking about driving up there. We saw some empty seats Th about driving up there to the game and I was like, Are you prepared to drive? I was like I was trying to be like, Brother in Christ, be careful before you enter this foray I mean Speaking to what Justin's talking about, I mean, it's sacar in a little bit here, but you know, I went up there and Justin remembers this because he worked on it with me. I mean, I went up there and got to see it on the ground and I'm not just saying this. It really I come from a place that is very eaten up with basketball and I think their culture is just different than anywhere. It's different than LA where there's there's a ground level on the street thing going on that Its just it's a different basketball experience. So when all that stuff was going on, I was just like I don't feel this way very often. I was just like, man, I wish I were there right now. I wish I could just see it because it's very spiritually in the air with them in a way that I think is kind of driving this vibe overall Go New York, go New York, go. Someone had to do it That's right. All right. We're going to get more in depth into like the next run and like what it's going to mean for whomever they end up playing in the finals next week will'll do a big old NBA finals preview, but we wanted to hit just quickly like some of the characters along the way, like who really earned their New York Knicks bona fides here. Like I wanted to do almost like the stripe ranking of like which of these players and perhaps even figures, Mike Brown, et cetera, Leon Rose, perhaps, like really just like earn their place. I have it down, I'm curious what you guys think is like three tiers basically You have like the first of all, onces a nick always a nick. So you're always a nick, just by being on that roster. Yes just years' gone by Lou Aminson, your' Nick as well. all right U So the next tier up if we're doing the stripe rank is I think it's like you're invited You get into the building, you get somewhere there, you go to the events, whenever we need to sign autographs, almost like you're a sopranos character, like you just do a meet and greet at a pickleball event, you get to do that stuff too, right I literally happened to veto from surprise, which is why I'm ming. You can get some potato wedges from the, you know, the underlit, you know catering thing. You can kind of go through and Yeah, pay h it. Right. Two would be like your front court SG You're one of the front and center people. You're the guy holding John Starks back when he's trying to Font court. you mean center court or courside Of course side. Thankk you. Yes.es. You're front and center. I mashed them together because I'm so excited. I think level three would be like Jim Dolan takes you. You're part of the Iuminati now. you're going to the secret dinners, you get the tax breaks, you know the stock tips in advance. That's like highest level like we're talking Patrick Ewing, we're talking Walt Frasier. We're talking like the absolute elite Mont Rhemore sorts of guys. Okaykay? Okay. You're getting JD in the straight shot private soundcloud links to unreleased material. You're getting a lot bo. Yeah I need those JD and the straighthot download codes for sure. I guess hook us up, Jim Dolan. So do you want to say MSG Illuminati top tier courourt side seconde tier Friends and family room third tier? or what do we want to call that? Overflow like Jon Lovittz at the SL Oflow. I like I like overflow third rroup. Well, I think the most interesting characters are probably the ones that we've gone back and forth on a lot I think we gott to start with Carl Anthony Towns first and foremost The playoff run of his life. It's to the point where it's just like I don't know who this guy is. Speaking of like Finals conference finals MVP. I would have voted for toowns. I realize why Brunson got it. He's been awesome, but like Towns has probably been overall their best player this entire playoffs. U, just phenomenal. and so for him I think this is a two or three sort of conversation because he's such a prominent figure Let's see, maybe even three just depends on how many. You want to put in three Yeah, this is the only issue with us doing this conversation about the Nick specifically is like If anyone has been elevated to MSG Illuminati status over the last twenty seven years, why would you not put the centerpiece players of the team that's returning the Kicks to the finals in that category as well? Like what is J R. Smith done to get these robes that Carl Carly Towns has not done. He did that sick baseline windmill against the cals that one year, that was nice. That was He's had some gl songs You're also trying to curate the like this is a this is a vibey hang. This is a like we're back in the, you know, I mentioned to you all we're back there in the smokers jacket kind of the pipe and the brandy kind of this is a this is a this is a scene. Does Carl fit that like Carmilla with the shades? Yeah, you know, like I think Brunson will fit that. It's just that's my only thing is's just like It Carl come into a room, you're like, oh, there's Carl. likeike, you know, I don't know if he's going to ascend to that level or like. You know, do you walk in and you say You keep moving You don't give your tap. And you're like,h, what's and then you just keep going, you never stop Thats He' like, come back, I think we all agree that the three of us are the arbiters of what is cool, right Sure, I've never thought otherwise. I go to several cool parties actually. hell yeah. I think Kat's got to be there. I think he has punched his Illuminati ticket already. and certainly if they were to go on to win the championship, like that's that's a totally different level of acclaim, but The way that any success is celebrated among Nick's fan culture and in New York more broadly, This is an incredible run deserving of exactly this kind of accolade Well, here's a better question for you guys. Do you think differently about Carl Towns based off of this post season Because like I'm having this internal conversation all the time here where it's like, as a player, this is the peak of Carl, right? Like this is the best he's ever been. The playoffs. like the stupid fouls have been cut down. He looks like legit. But having said that, like if he reverts back in the finals, let alone like next postseason, I wouldn't be surprised So like, I acknowledge the feet while still being like, I don't know if I think about him totally different I kind of am thinking about him totally differently And so some of that may just be how rigid your impression was of Carl Towns before, where I think just with everything we had seen from him, specifically the very frustrating parts of his game, right? The offensive fouls, the bad turnovers, the like you can't get him the ball when you need to get him the ball and yet he's forcing these other shots in these other moments. Hes just like he felt like a player In terms of the way he like thinks the game was never going to be exactly on the page with everyone around him and certainly executing at a level to be like championship type basketball But he's done it. like he's done it for round upon round after round. He's done it in a variety of roles that's like constantly evolving under his feet. He has been the key to unlock all of these series in his way and in different ways basically depending on who the Kicks have been playing against I didn't think he was capable of that to the point that I don't know that I ever would have if you have asked me going into the playoffs, do you think it's more likely than not that Carlstowns never wins a championship I would say it felt like more like it felt so much more likely that he would never win. And now I can see it. Now I can picture it. I understand what it looks like. I understand the role he plays on a team like this I think it speaks to the Nicks more broadly that The reason this feels like a championship formula is not just because they've gotten here to the finals and proven it But they have the construction where all of their core players feel over qualified for what they do. Like Jayalen Brunson can be a guy who gets you thirty two, but sometimes the Kicks are their best when he's putting up twenty five and he's really distributing well Kat could be a guy who gets you twenty five, but maybe at his best when he's giving you eighteen and like crucial playmaking. And you could do the same exercisees with OG and Michael Bridgees as you could do the same exercise with Mitchell Robinson, like so many guys on their roster They just have so many players in really great spots right now because they have accepted doing a little bit less for a collective's sake of like, how do we make this fit for this moment Yeah, I think that there is the crisis of I can't take the thing that I do and expand it to the biggest stage, you know, likeike there's I can't I can't increase the pump the volume of the thing that I do well and I fall short of the moment and I get, you know, LeBron went through this, yadda, yadda yadda. But then there's also the crisis of self awareness that I think some players go through. and I think that Carl falls into this category where if you look at his production like last year, you know, twenty one and a half points per game and one point three assist per game. It's just kind of like sometimes the and that's up to thats The scoring' down to sixteen point nine and the assists are pushing six per game. So that's just kind of like, are you capable of being aware of yourself in a way to say like, okay, maybe this isn't I was under the impression that I needed to deliver that and that took the form of points of threes and you create my own shot. That's really difficult to do. That's really, really hard to do. I think U adjusting your game in a way that benefits with some that benefits winning sometimes takes a different approach and I think like like a tweak of mindset. I think he deserves a lot of credit for that. So I yeah, I absolutely have changed the way I think about Carl as a player for sure. All right, next guy up here, Michkael Bridges. And here's a good way to look at this. Okay. Are we ever allowed to bring up how many first round draft picks were acquired by the nets in the trade for Mcuel Bridges I don't think you are. I think the conversation' been put to rest. He's at minimum courtside seats. I think he has a pretty decent case for Illuminati status already. and some of it be putting an Illuminati. I think I think it's a pretty look, you've seen these collections of Nick's alumni. like it's a pretty big tent that they've got going over there Yeah. I have a lot of emails floating around. Like Tim Thomas is in the Illuminati, right? Yeah. Oh no as I said, hes he's from New Jersey. I don't I think he's at the game, courts side, right? He's courts side but notum Jhn Stark's th, Illuminati I think I'mking of well, like those guys are lluminati See, I thought it was more exclusive than that. I'm talking like five spots. How do you make a secret society with five people? That's just like a fucking club in your basement? Like that's not You've never been in a secret society. Apparently not. You know what, if there's a five guy secret society up there, Don't invite me. I don't want to be a part of it Bridges in the Illuminati No. I think he's score. I think so much of what he has had to do has been like things had to be adjusted for him for him to succeed. He wasn't the catalyst himself. So I think you need to be a little bit of a catalyst to send to that level of of Illuminati in my opinion. Well, me let me challenge that idea with another name because this guy does not create for himself, but I think the cult of personality around Josh Hart is a little bit different than Michael Bridges. Do you think does he have auto Illuminaati status? you You tap into personality of the city kind of thing that I think has like a really appealing thing where it's like Starks, I think had some of that. Starks had it was like a little erratic. It was a little bit like I'll start a fight in the street that maybe I can't win, but damn, I'm going to go down swinging kind of Dunks, the scoring the outbursts, he had a swagger about him that Hart, I think taps into also. and I think he's Bridg is not the same Bridges is like a nice guy that, you know, could date your daughter type thing. likeike, you know, it's like not the same thing. Hart's like, I don't know about Hart. He's really cool. you know, I don't know if it'sart not allowed to date your hypothetical daughter. No, its just not's a little it's not as squeaky Like Cart has a little bit of has a little bit more cred I think. He's going to go on to a very long post playing career probably with the Nicks and probably with MSG like overall. And so I could see him being like a studio analyst twenty years down the road here because he's such a vibes guy. Like he's like the perfect hang if we're talking about that being for whatever reason of qualification in order for the stupid thing that we've set up here. Like Hart's going to be in our lives for a very long time, and I'm here for him. He can even be in my wedding party. He could date whatever Daughter have Wow. age difference will be pretty profound at that point. Yeah, we may have to wait some time for that to be kosher, but I to swerve away from the daughter thing. It's just lookook, didn I didn't raise it. You brought it into this. I did it. I did I do think he is illuminized. So so far we've got Kat Do we think he's in or is he still kind of borderline second he Probably in. I think we're being a little bit too rigid about this made up thing, but yeah. It's a system we created. What are we doing if not adhering to it? But Mcillel Bridg is simply court side Okay Anybody else? I think Lindrew Shaman is an interesting case. Yeah. All of a sudden becoming just a critical role player I've seen a lot of his like tunnel walks too. Guy has a lot a lot of style to his game more than I ever expected for a guy who is derided by just his weird face for so long. W you know. All right. Well would you like I mean, I have not seen the tunnel walks. Could you describe his style for us? Like what is what is he working with It's real like every other Thursday, Instagram friendly, like the brand that you only see because the cool guys know it, like he's very plugged in. So clearly he just has like a successful girlfriend who like just or works or has a stylist, but it's like it's much more approachable than it would be like someone like OG and Anenobbe back in the day with like ninety scarfs just hanging off of Various body parts, right? Gotches. So there's there's the approachability seems like the every man quality to his style is what appeals to you Sorry, I in terms of pure basketball play I think he's court side. I think I think look, if you move the needle in multiple conference finals games, you get to be courts side Who's getting are people getting bumped at some point? We only have enough seats. I mean, is's Susie is Susie Esmond getting kind of like bumped at some point? Bobby, you know, I don't know. M Mariska is not getting bumped. Like there are certain people who are stapled to their seats there, but I think there's a lot of wiggle room on quote unquote celebrity Row. I'll leave that Mitchell Yorkers. Yeah. Mitchell Robinson luckily probably doesn't want to be there. He would rather just be like Mudden back in his hometown Modest Louisiana boy. Yeah him advan He he might be overflow anyway right now. I think there's still like again, look if you if you win the the championship, everyone becomes part of the Illuminati at that point, but like I feel like what Landry Shamot has done on this run has been more important than what Mitchell Robinson has done on this run. That's fair. Yes Um I think we got to talk about Bronson att some point. I think the answer is pretty obvious here, but I've seen like the anecdotes about like what he wanted from the MAVs on an extension. and I believe it was four years fifty six million, which is Jesus Christ I was stunned by the number. I knew it was low. Yeah. I mean, what's funny is he won't even make that per year until his next contract because he took such a bargain deal on this most recent extension. And so just one of the most bizarre career trajectories I've ever seen and it's funny because like Obviously no one will remember probably that gaff by the Mavs because of the Luadonra situation. but like Oh let me assuree. people remember the photo of Brinon and Luca together like media day has been swirling around. Yeah, there were lot a lot of flubs in the Cuban era, just probably not to be historic extreme of his predecessors. Yeah.. It wasn't great. Yeah. I We do need a new tier for Jyen Bruntce, and I'm thinking like Jim Dolan's sooule and only heir Yeah Just truly give him the keys to the city, let him run MSG like I think there's at this point there is nothing you would take away from Jail and Bronson He Yeah, I mean, he's probably getting to the point where he might want he might want to dial it back a little bit. It's Jim Dolan, you know, unwanted, you know, vulnerable voicemails. I don't know. It's he's he's in the inter the inner inner sanctum at this point for the Kicks. reggardless of what happens to be honest with you. I mean Yeah because he has a he's an airor about him too. That's the other thing too. It's like that silent corners Um, It's all, it's all adding up. Well, and look, championships are amazing. They're celebrated in a totally unique way. They mean something gritty that nothing else can. I know it's a bold stance. but this is what I really want to say Getting to this point, getting to an NBA final is Really the accomplishment to me that matters and that changes a lot about the perspective of a team and the players. It is an anointing of a different kind You want to go all the way, you want to win it all, but it's like, this is something we're celebrating in and of itself. It's just like just getting to this tier with the core of a team is like the ultimate confirmation in the roster that you built I real like the real victory in life is living well I don't think Dude they can win. It It's not living well. It's getting like reaching this sort of level with hope. Like that is where you want to be. like as a fan of a team, as a part of that team. I just don't I don't want to get this this exercise in our larger conversation about the Nick bog down and like, oh, if they win, then X, o if they lose, then why? it's like these guys are set for life because they got here on these terms with a historic like point differential along the way And this version of it feels the best, right? where you are tempted to And it's takaking it back to the Spurs thing. it's that was something that not that they get credit for approaching it this way, but panic whenever something goes, you know, because they've had some pretty rough, you know We were talking about the Pacers thing to lose the way that they did was really demoralizing and to stand pat and be like, we're running it back, you know? And I know people were making that comparison with the calves. I don't think that's going to play out the exact same way. hate to burst anybody's bubble, But this feels really good because they stuck with this roster build and they tweak some things in the margins But it was're going we're going to work with what we have and get in there in the finals with Hope now, like you were saying, Rob, I think it makes it feel extra sweet than like we went ins sign the best free agent and we just like cled the button and got the best. This is sweeter This is what I'm saying, step by step, building a team that can go to the finals, pretty sick as it turns out. Before we go, Rob, you said you wanted to do a break dancing routine for the audience. What are you talking about Were got do the worm real quickly. Why are you like this? Go. Were you wait, one of us knew the worm. Was it Rob I've never done the worm in my life. So one of us elastic enough to do the worm. Justin I can see as a teenager doing the worm. Did you know it Was that your signature move? That's a robot. That's not a worm. We gotta get out of here. This is a disaster. You get bon yk too go out on. All right, here's here's the thing. If you're listening at home, we got and you hear go New Yk go New York go, we got the rights to it because Rob sold off a piece of his equity at the company If not, You'll hear the regular group chat. Okay So we'll go on on that Thank you to Ben Cruz Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll see you next time twenty one plus in presents select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen plus imp present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem callall one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred My reset. Call one eight eight eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven or visit ccPG dot org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp dot org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gamblinghelp line mA dot org or call eight hundred three two seven five zero fivezero for twenty four seven support in Massachusetts or call one eight seven seven eight hope and why Or textax hope NY in New York, Louisiana callall. one eight seven seven seven seven zero seven eight six seven