Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

Hello and welcome to Grouphat. I am Justin Berrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney, J Kyle Man, Gentlemen, The Kicks, They're champions. Who to Thunk it genuinely who would to thk it I have to say, I in the back of my mind had considered that I might just go until I die without ever seeing the Kicks win an NBA championship given the way that I don't know, the first thirty something years started since I've been alive. And yet here we are. I can only imagine how it feels to be a Nick an actual Nicks fan who has gone along for that ride Yeah, man. I mean, that's if you had told me before the season Hey, Kyle, like if I could if, you know, if I'd gone in a time machine like, hey, the Kicks are going to win the title. I wouldn't have been That's what you're using the time machine for of all I'm just say I would use it for many things, but I wouldn't have just fallen down from shock, but it definitely would have been a like, oh, really? Wow. you know, it would have been a much bigger surprise than if you told me OKC or I just or the nuggets or whatever it is, it's a nice surprise. I mean, I picked him to get to the finals, but I still feeling pretty like Um It's pretty impressive and it's a nice surprise that they won it, even though I'm not like You know, utterly shocked. Do you'll feel the same way about that? I don't Well I just like how you wove in there that you picked them to make the finals Like you didn't make a big deal out of it, but you just made a Ive said it repeatedly the playoffs. I've said it repeatedly. I had a moment at the beginning, Pina and I had a funny back and forth at the beginning of the playoffs where I was like Really, really regretting that decision where I was just like, what was I thinking? Yeah we had a funny ongoing thing about Brunson who we can get to where I was just like, is this is this doable in the playoffs? and my goodness, is it ever doable? Turns out Well, that was the last time that they were down because they would not lose two games in a series ever again throughout the playoffs. What a time for New York, What a time for amateur arsonists out there. But Rob is right. It does feel like everything that we were told for so long in sports like this teams sad sack franchise never going to happen for him. It feels like those things time is just kind of add a way of metting those out like the Red sockx growing up were sad Sacks when I when I live out there. the Cubs, for instance, on that level. Unfortunately there are some teams that probably will literally never happen for like the Sacramento Kings, but you know, ty years down the road, perhaps, mayaybe spaceships will be there. Maybe they could ride on motor scooters or whatever while they're playing and that will be the difference. That's the thing. likeike when we're still doing this pod thirty years from now, still working out technical difficulties, I think that's when the kings are going to finally do it. And we're going be there live to podcast on Netflix about it Let's talk about Payoni's disease, or PD It's not widely talked about And some men may feel reluctant to bring it up But it's more common than you'd think PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis, causing a curve or a bump during an erection that for some men, may lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. Visit talkaboutpD. com heads in like back to tanks on Terama or whatever it is, whatever the I forget the mode of technology they use there, but the big thing here is, I mean, you know, we joke about the aftermath. peopleeople always people always get up in arms about the stuff that happens after a title happens. I get news free. It happens everywhere. It happens in Lexington. It happens in stores. It happens in every city. But the intensity of this one is Justin, you can speak to stores more specifically, I'm sure. I got on my immediate like reaction was I need to go get on the live traffic cameras for New York. I just got on there. I was just scrolling through them.. I know a lot of people had this experience of I was just trying to see what was going on and partying, yeah was more, I was joking about it on Twitter because you know we could talk about the crime and things and get into some of that more specifically, but they care more than anybody else. And that's the thing about, you know, the juxtaposition of their misery. inextricable from from how much they care, you know, a lot of cities care, but it's so woven into the fabric of New York and the generations of Nick fans just when you start getting that into the kind of tapestry of who you are as a fan base, you grow up, I don't know, did you all have a fan experience like this? L did your parents tell you like these larger than life tales about because that's a thing in Kentucky And that's a big thing about when you grow up is I hear you hear about these guys who become larger than life. That's a huge part of the Nicks experience of just like, man, let me tell you about Bernard King. Let me tell you about, you know, Mark Jackson Yeah and John Starks. like Yeah for what other fan base would John Starks become an immortal piece of lore and just like a banner carrier for everything the Kicks are and have been to this point I just I am caught in the wake of all this. Around this time every year, we reflect on the season, we reflect on the championships, We talk about all the things that they pulled off, the incredible like team building maneuvers that it took to get to this point Like we don't have to pretend that all of these things are the same, that every championship feels the same way. And it it's I would say particularly striking coming off of the Thunderers win last year where an incredible run that the Thunder had to win the title, a seven game NBA finals And yet, this is just a different thing. and that's okay. and it's okay to acknowledge that. And I think part of the reason this has been such a joy Just in terms of watching the finals, but also kind of basking in the aftermath of it is just this like incredible emotional connection that not just Kicks fans have with this particular team, but basketball fans as a whole kind of got wrapped up in it. and the bandwagoning of really the entire sport has just been on a roll for weeks on end in a way that has just been incredible to watch We need to get into all of this. We got to talk about the spurs. We got to talk about some ripple effects from the finals, but we also got to dig into Jayalen Bronsson, the New York Kicks and everything that happen in game five. Right after this This episode of the Ringer NBA show is presented by Ferrero. The world is watching. 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Learn more at go allIandwin d. com Why don't we start here becausecause I think Rob was right before he went to the break here that this one feels a little different, not only because of the emotional aspect because of New York and all the suffering and everything kind of coming around there This game five and the way that they won just felt so like Oh like you felt it in your gullet This one and I think this stat says it better than anything and this was from ESA and I think theyve mentioned this on the broadcast, the Spurs actually led the finals sixty nine percent of the time which You know, its just like you wce when you hear that thing Yeah because the way that they Wby's quote wasn't wrong. Oh he was absolutely right. He was right. But then obviously the way they lost in game four and then it happened similarly in game five. there was just a real like reaching into your heart it out and then just like eat it in front of you quality to this next win, like a decisiveness that hadn't been there previously where it's just like oh yeah, There are no doubts, they really just kind of wax them in the most like embarrassing fashion, unfortunately Yeah, I think When the Kicks started something like four of twenty two from the field and the Spurs defense was amazing to start game five. Like they deserve all due credit for holding the Kicks to that kind of shooting percentage But the Kicks were shooting like four of twenty two and the sppurs were only up like seven or eight points I was just like, okay, this thing is this is going to be a rarap. The push is coming. The comeback is inevitable I just at this point have the utmost faith in the Kicks and Jalen Brunson to close out any of these games that are even remotely close The incredible accomplishment of their run is that several of these games were close at all, that they had the comeback gear to just like dismiss a star like that, to come back to swat away an opponent that's winning sixty nine percent of the time for an entire series and pull out just improbable win after improbable win after improbable win. And when that happens at of times, it just ceases to be improbable to me Yeah, big u big boogym' big boogyman in Widows Bay vibes from I don't know if Justin's watching that show where I more he's But Okay yeah. Yeah yeah. I mean, well, more kind of Michael Myers almost Yeah, I well, yeah, you're right. It's I mean, they're derivative but get you get these situations where Um, the Nicks are The sppurs come out and they think, all right, we're going to hold our taser or whatever it is our our what is a stun gun? a stun gun to the gasoline and catch him on fire. it's like he's on fire. I think we're in good shape here. When really you kind of have to be Patricia with a shotgun to the nextick head all the way to the all the way to the the crematorium and make sure that they are dead because they just time and time again. And I think this is a function of They came back like you were saying, these felt scripted almost in a way that was flipped from the way the Boston series went. Was it Was it in twenty twenty four, the one where the Kicks kept coming back and late game? but I think this is a function of at the NBA level where you don't really see this in college that the amount of good players that can accrue on a good playoff team can really put put together these sequences in a game where if you don't have a great, you don't have great depth The Kicks just repeatedly would come back during these stretches where the Furs had problematic stretches within their rotation that they just kept losing over and over again, which will factor into some of their offseason conversations that we can get into. But They just seem kind of unkillable. It just seemed like Brunson repeatedly was like a boxer just prepping them for the late round. I'm going to hit you with the heavy stuff and and he paid paid off. He delivered. Well, that's the flip side of the first half defense where the pressure and how high they were picking them up and how much physicality they were exerting gave way to like what happened in the second half, which is it didn't seem like they had the same sort of Wenbe in particular, we're going to talk about that a lot, I'm sure later in the episode, but also just to have Bronsson to be able to turn to to go to work there like I could just watch him pivoting and like like making these small little headfakes and lookoffs in order to get downhill in the way that he was pretty much all day. I'm curious why the Spurs defensively still despite the fact that he seemed like he was getting a free run to the basket kept picking him up so high. likeike there' was a really crucial possion where Castle was basically picking up a half court. Brunson makes one move and he's basically at the rim at that point. I think that's something like the Spurs need to ask themselves is just like their process coaching wise in the midst of a game. I don't know if you guys saw the clip from game four as well where the last final possession where they didn't know who was they were guarding and actually got mashed up on the wrong guys, which led to the switch for Weemby, which led to him being so far out there. There's a lot of that going on there, but obviously I think this is Jylen Bronsson' this moment. forty five points and out of the ninety four that the Kicks had in this game I also just felt like His walk offff interview with Lisa Salters was just like so affecting. Like that's literally everything you want from sports from this moment Unfortunately, it was a pretty stark comparison to what happened with Jason Tatum probably two years ago, a moment that felt a little too manufactured, a little too like he had rehearsed what he was going to say once he got to that point. Brunson was basically like couldn't talk because he was just so emotional in that point. And I was just thinking like Throughout the year, we've talked so much about face of the league and like how the league is selling itself and like what works, what doesn't, the tanking and all this stuff. I feel like that was probably one of the dominant storylines throughout this NBA season, at least the regular season. But like once we got to this point, like I felt like this is exactly why we all plug into sports like to watch someone like Brunson who's a bit of an underdog, overcome adversity time and time again in order to win in the biggest moments like I don't know. this is why Jerry Bruckheimer is a zillionaire, you know, it was a real like How can you not be romantic about basketball moments? And I have to say, like It was special. I felt that in ways that probably I hadn't in even recent years when other teams have w I think it was incredibly special. I don't I can't remember a quote to come out of the finals that I will think about more than Jalen Brntson saying, you're allowed to think about the worst case scenario, but then you have to go do something about it. Like I'm just gonna put that in the pocket for the rest of my life. and I'm gonna to think about many of these Jayalen Brunts in place for the rest of my life. Like this was an all time showing I don't know that we've seen a better fininals closing performance in terms of the closing of these games since Michael Jordan since at least Dirk in the twenty eleven finals, like They had comparable percentages in terms of their scoring for their teams in the fourth quarter of this series, but This was incredible stuff and of all of the plays that Brunson did, of all the things he pulled off. I keep going back to that one IO possession he had against WenB like midway through the fourth quarter. I believe it was trimming the spurs lead from six to four And one on one throws Wimby off balance three different times. L first with an incredible cross to break free of Wimby on the like from the perimeter in the first place then hits him like with a bump midway through his drive throws one of the best defenders, a guy who's so much taller than him completely off balance Then hits him with like the little head fake inside just enough to sell Weemby that he might be pulling up for that floater all to get this crazy layup that I'm not sure any other player in the entire league could make other than Jayalen Brunson And to me, that's just like the whole experience in a nutshell. It's like three absolutely elite individual fundamental plays to make just like an all time title securing bucket That's the kind of run he's been on. That's the kind of run the Kicks have been on and I just don't, I'm never going to get tired of celebrating that or of what Jalen Brunson just did over the last few weeks Yeah, you're right. It cut it to four. That was eighty three, seventy nine because I wrote down that entire run when he came back in. it was at the eight minute mark and it was seventy three, eighty three was the score. And yeah, I mean, he he just kind of wove together a sequence that was it felt inevitable. I mean, the people I was watching with, we all were just like It's coming. here it comes, you know, and and and he delivered and, you know, some of it was the pickup point stuff like you were talking about Justin where You know, as much as Castle is equipped to be lanky and give a right the right types of bumps and in combination with lunging towards the ball and his explosiveness, like that set him up to guard Say, I think, in a way in the isolation. I think we've talked about this on the show a little bit, but in the mid range. it's not the exact right toolbag to guard Brunson because I think the the playing up hill stuff Brunson just gets in there and he just has such a great feel for the the consequence of every just tiny little thing that he does. likeike he gets into the he plays more like Luca that he does like Shay honestly and I'm not going to it would be funny, I think to assume that maybe they're time together. I'm sure he learned some things from. Oh definitely He got in there and yeah, I mean that play that play on Wimby, but there were just a few different times where his certainty in transition theurs were scrambling. I mean, Champenny he took that ball off the rim Chhampenny fouls him. he just time and time again got them in really tough situations. And I think that Brunson has affected the small guard pantheon, the word we love at the ringer Now it's Isaiah Thomas. now it's Steph Curry who's Steph six three, six two and a half, but and then it's Brunson. I mean, Iverson got to the finals, but you know, got up against a behemoth and the Lakers and then Chris Paul, Steve Nash. Th those guys never got to the finals. I think he's really affected that conversation in the way that we look at small players even going forward. It's just kind of like But I think it's really special what he did. I don't even know if it's replicable to be honest with you. Well, I do want to talk about that. I have this later on, but we should talk about it now. You're right. L Steh feels like a completely separate thing. He basically ushered in a different style of basketball being played with the shots that he wass making. And so like he feels like his own little subcategory to that In terms of small guars, it just like it just doesn't happen this way. And I do wonder how much a result of the Nick success just came from insulating him with the exact right team you would want around him And I think that gets us into the conversation about like how much did his initial pay cut on his extension really just basically outfit him with the right team in order to do so Um, onn the one hand, like I think the pay cut thing is a little misleading because ultimately in the long run, when he gets to his next extension, he isn't going to lose that much money if anything, he's going to make it back. It does take a lot of faith in your organization that when you sign an extension, you're going to then get the maximum amount on the next extension coming down the road there. And so there's that But it did feel like, you know him doing that allowed him to have this sort of top heavy team. It's basically a big three when you look at just pure salaries with OG him and Carl Anthony Towns. Th then obviously you hadam Mcale and so like was it As much Brunson's like just particular style of brilliance one, Rob. O is it as much about like him getting exactly what he would need doing the pay cut in order to put himself in position to on this sort of stage. I mean, it's very much both, right? Yeah. Jalen Brunson is not LeBron James. He's not even Steph Curry. like historic like these are all time incredible players who are going to be in the top ten conversations in the history of the sport Joen Brunson not there yet. Maybe he will be. Maybe he's going to like rattle off three or four incredible years here and we're going to have that talk. This isn't that. like it is a more balanced champion. And that's part of what makes the Nick story so fascinating and so interesting And I think also part of what made the regular season so challenging was figuring out how to balance all of these different pieces to their maximum effect to not just be This ISO driven version of the Kicks all the time. like they had so many different gears, they had so many different speeds, so many different ways to throw teams off balance. And then when it came down to it, it could be Brunson throwing the Haymakers because he didn't have to do it every step of the way, eighty two games and through an entire playoff run But I think he is uniquely conditioned to be dominant because of the fundamentals of his game, because of the way he scores. and also just with where the NBA is right now, I think so much of twenty or so until twenty twenty two was about like how do we create space, right? How do we stretch out the floor to the maximum possible effect? And the swing back, I would say, since that time is how do we use that space Not just how do we get a bunch of three ind D wings on the floor, but who are the guys who are so uniquely attuned to that body control that Kyle was talking about in terms of the bumps and the manipulations of defenders, like If you can get one guy on an island, even if that one guy is the best defensive player in the world. Who were the players who were so good at dialing in those exact possessions and getting the most out of them? And Jayen Brunson is among that class of players. Yeah, it's interesting watching, you know, they had those like this day on the playoffs over the years. I don't know if you all saw those clips. The NBA was posting them. It was interesting to watch I guess it was the twenty seventeen finals or maybe it was I think it was it might even been twenty sixteen when because all the cavs wararrior stuff frs together as we know. but It was fascinating watching Steph's style of play in those clips where I was like, that feels like a long time ago. And I know we all were so convinced where which it is increasingly long ago, but U stylistically it feels even further away because we we got so obsessed with what you were talking about Rob about like how do we how do we make the floor bigger? How do we how do we get more evasive? How do we make team scramble around and those things still do exist. It is interesting and I think important to note that the concert between Cat in between Brunson is also very important. Both of those guys are three level scores, which I think the Spurs don't currently have, which we can talk about more in a little bit, but his ability to pull Wimby away was huge at very critical times in this game. That one play where And this speaks to the just the small things that Brunson's able to do. He had a play. I rewound this so many times because I kept trying to pause it at the spot where he did it and it wasn't working. So I had to do one of those just, you know cursor scrub kind of like drag it moments. And it's where he drove on the left side and Carl is in the left corner. Wimby lunges at him like like a gigantic mechanical spider or something. I mean, I can't imagine Wimy stunting at me would be just so terrifying Brunson just gives him a split second ball fake head shoulder fake to Kat and and Carl such a good shooter that Wimby scrambles back out there and it's like that kind of stuff is partly what makes him so great, But then, but I do think that their skill sets in concert together is a really important thing even even if Carl didn't produce to the level of a superstar in this series Yeah Imon Schumppt talked about this a little bit on the Hoop collective, but like Jaylen Brunson's I fakes are so devastating in that way. I mean, it's become a signature part of his game. likeike that specific manipulation. He didn't invent it. Guards have been doing it for a long time, especially great playmakers But I think the discrepancy for him as a guy who's not necessarily known for passing being like a pass first point guard in the traditional sense, still being able to sell that so convincingly is a huge part of what allows him to kind of wedge his way open Yeah, and I have to imagine that by game five that Brunson was probably in their heads a little bit based off of some of those slight fakes and hesitations and pivots and whatnot that they were just like, they didn't know where to go because it felt like he was just getting Scot free, especially like that one play late in. I don't remember the timing was where Castle just like was at the dust, picked them up at half court just didn didn't have any shot at it I have to imagine he thought he was faking one way and he just went And that's like the own personal blender that Brunson had in contrast to like what they were doing with just the pass and some of the other possessions. just like watching the spurs get moved around Especially Wemby with the way that they were moving the ball is something that like I will always remember and we talk about space, like that was the Kicks own like special quality in order to manipulate the space was to get guys moving and in rotation and just trying to be able to follow the ball because everything was just so on a string in comparison to what was happening on the other end where it felt like the Nicks were able to play to their strength Pl to their size because of the lack of shooting with the spurs there Do we want to talk about the S spurs? Do you guys have anything else you want to talk about the Kicks or should we I would say just one other thing about the Kicks, but really it's about both teams. Like a lot of what we're describing to me is the psychological battle of what someone like Jal and Brunson and really the Kicks broader offense does to a team like the Spurs versus the physical wearown that San Antonio was trying to extract from Brunson in the first place, right? And part of the reason they're picking him up so high is just hoping beyond hope that if you do this for forty minutes that in minute forty, he's not going to hit the crazy shot that he's obviously going to hit But the trade offff for that is if you are pressuring him that much and he just keeps beating it and beating it and beating it in route to, you know, what do he end up with forty five, forty five points in that game That just devastates your defense in a way that is like it is not an X and O thing. It is not a tactical thing It's just like a deeply spiritual wound that I think is really hard to recover from in real time. And Scores like Brunson have the unique ability to do that where you throw everything you have at them, you're hoping that the attrition of a final series wears them down But instead, they just kind of pick you apart from inside out Yeah, there's there's like a paralysis of tedium, I think with with Brunson where he just brings you into that world that I was talking about and you're just so on edge and I think it's mentally fatiguing. honestly thought they should have thrown Harper on him more. I know I made a big deal about that and after the last game. I just thought he he had he had a better there was a play. There were a couple plays down the stretch where Harper picked him up and I think walled him a little better than Castle was doing. but Yeah, it's really cool because I think the Simple thing that you could get lured into watching this team is just think like, oh, this is a little guy Helio team and he's just slowing it down. and man, they can't do anything about him, but it's like that was the onnce the spurs are tired, that's the thing that they were the least equipped to do. you know, because I made a point was to slow that down because I made the point about the Wimby stunning at him thing like Wimby was just stretched mentally physically, he was worn down, you know, one follows the other, But I think at that point in the in the series. And in the game He was just so stretched out and worn out mentally that I don't think he was in his right mind. I think he overreacted that because he was so tired. So U Another thing too that I don't know that we've talked about on this show is the fact that the sppurs are an excellent zone offense team and the are the the Kicks are an excellent zone offense team and the sppurs play their own type of zone with Wimby and I doubt that that was another thing that really hurt them is that they could get them into that ball movement blender and that just wore the that wore the spurs out by the end. I mean, if you were going to create a team in a lab to beat a zone defense, it would have the high post shooter and passing and Kat, It would have the mid range killer and Jalen Brunson and it would have the backline offensive rebounders like Josh Hardoji andobi like They have everything you need to punish those sorts of strategies So I think Kyle's right about Weenby. where I think the thing that the most You're welcome. The thing that's just most concerning or the thing that's most disappointing, I'd say is just the way that he comported himself down the stretch there, where You really remembered for the first time in a very long time that he's twenty two years old and still figuring this all out on the fly. I guesss one thing to be fatigued, especially coming off of last off season where I think people forget like he literally couldn't do a lot of basketball stuff and that part of the reason why he went to shout Lin with the monks was because of the blood clot limiting what he could do on a court. And so like he basically missed the bridge year between his second year and third year of off season working and just like working at his game and all his other stuff. like which is wild to think about that he is where he is without that Um It just felt like that's one thing, right? We could talk about like the specifics of his gameplay and all this other stuff, But like it just seemed like he was melting down and things were just getting out of his grasp and it almost felt like he was becoming overly physical to the point of like a little dirty as a result of it. He probably would have gotten suspended for game six as ault of like going under Brunson and not being called for the flagrant on the landing issue and just I don't know, just really felt like he completely spiraled in a way that we weren't used to seeing him. I guess it's just the moment. I guess it's just the pressure and all that. It's nothing to be concerned about like super long term, but like I think the lasting image of Weemby I'll have is him kind of just being a little bit of a dick and a little bit too physical as a result of him not being able to affect the game in the way that he's used to doing so. Yeah mean, he was frustrated constantly in this series. and sometimes that manifested in him like taking it out on the game and being really aggressive for minutes of a time minutes at a time pursuing his scoring. And sometimes it manifested in him two arms shoving Jalen Brunson for kind of no reason whatsoever other than difficult games. Like these are unique challenges. and Not only was Wimby not particularly ready to respond to everything that the Kicks threw at him I'm just not sure he was ready for forty plus minutes of intense not just physical exertion, but absolutely intense focus in these games. It's a really difficult thing. And when you think about someone who during the regular season, Dpersge went to such great efforts to keep his minutes down, right to limit his intense competitive windows for the sake of getting him here. Some of this is the trade off. Like in game four, As the Nicks are pulling off the most unspeakable comeback in NBA finals history, Weby was completely gased down the stretch, missed crucial free throws, made mind like blundering mistakes. and that's after already earlier in the series, He threw the, you know, the pass off of Ste von Castle's butt. like This this is kind of where his finals legacy is beginning, right? You come in and you get absolutely humbled and I think His comment about how the Spurs had a lot of this series in hand And the lesson of it is just how painful your mistakes are just rings absolutely true. Like the smallest margins get blown up in terms of what one error in judgment can do. And down the stretch of these games, whatever the cause may be, if you want to say it's physical, if you want to say it's mental, if you want to say he's just too young for it He just was making so many of those mistakes at an uncharacteristic frequency that I mean, we'll see how he responds to that and starts to kind of put those pieces back together Yeah, it'd be one thing if it were just kind of in, you know, a vacuum of we're just playing basketball straight up. canan you answer these problems? But we all know that that's just not the way it works. And I mean, this is just a we've done the SunzZoo warfare thing before. It's just like the thing happening on the battlefield is not the is not the totality of it. There's there's the Psychological, there's information. There's a lot of different ways that people go about trying to get the job done. And I think that's true of basketball too. And I think that the mental toll that a lot of it is, yes, there were the bumps that he was taking on every roll of the basket. And I think it of his body type, he's got a lot of things he's got to figure out of just getting stronger and proving, you know, I know the Spurs know that they have this really, really special talent and they try to take care of him during the season, but maybe that his cardio, they work on it in some way and just try to get him more ready for this But there's also on the other hand, There's a there's an interesting and I think I've alluded to this before Watching him an international play when he was growing up or watching him with Nonire or Mets ninety two U There's a big like wherever you go, there you are psychological thing going on with him where one to this stuff. And I don't think people I don't think Americans saw it in the early part of his career with the Spurs where it's not dissimilar from Yokach where Yok he wouldn't fly off the handle the way Yokich would just get like teary eyed and scream and things like that, But Wimby would get would fly off the handle and psychologically take himself out of the game. It was a thing that we saw when he was younger and I think it's something that he's going to have to figure out. On the other hand U Wh you are as a basketball player from fifteen to eighteen from eighteen to twenty two from twenty two to twenty six. Th are big mile markers in who you are. We're at twenty two Who he is he has a lot of stuff to figure out. And I've heard people like narrative wise If Wimby's career had gone this way, it would have been like jumping from a new hope straight to return to the Jedi, had been like Luke' special, Luke conquered the galaxy. It's like, no, every single superstar, we talked about this on the show where It would have been weird if he had just conquered the leeague and his first go at it. We need the Empire strikes back. part of Wimby's story where it's like and I think we went into it where it's like he's got stuff he's got to answer in terms of his game. He's got to figure out how I can we talk about the Spurs hierarchy as a team? because I think that's what this launches into because I can on about this, but that you're just saying I think that How much they use Daron Fox despite the fact that he couldn't hit a goddamn shot Let's do it. Let's talk about the Sur hacy because I think it fucked them at really, really brutal times in this series This episode is brought to you by Nas Energy. Every ounce of dirt sweat and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard fought place They're all jammed inside every can of NSA energy performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower For the streets, go ahead, crack open a can of Nas energy and get after it This episode is brought to you by Nas Energy. Introducing new NAS Eergy Grand Prix Guava For those that want to be fueled up and fired up with a one hundred bound hour tropical tasting power Iignnite your taste, start your ine A flavor to high gear with new Nas Energy Grand Prix Guava Hit the street, grab a can and get after it Well, obviously Hes I think he opens up a lot of questions about his long on this team. I found what they were saying, both Vell and others about just like Harper not being happy with his role. I don't know what was going on. I saw Michael right at ESPN suggesting that was much earlier on in the season when Harper wasn't playing like enough versus like what specific role he was playing later on. and so Clearly Harper wants to be a bigger factor and if you watch any minute of the finals. you would know that he deserves that because at the end of game five, when they needed someone the most, he was the best player on the floor. And I have to say like If he was unhappy with his role, even in the playoffs or even when things were going right Love it Like, this is what you want. from the guy that you're hoping is going to be the counterpart to Weemby and lead you into this new era of prominence. L it's okay to be like the best teammate who sacrifices all this stuff. if you're a role player. If you're the number one guy if you're a potential MVP con down the road, I want you to be the fucking dog who like wants it like now and is unhappy when you don't get it. so The Spurs have some stuff to figure out. I guess for me, I think it's pretty clear cut where it's just like give Harper as much as he wants as soon as he wants it Yeah, I think it's going to be a huge part of their journey next season. is just figuring out one way or another How you get Dyl and Harper up to the level of running offense where you feel super comfortable just giving him the keys down the stretch of some of these games. And maybe maybe that is you still star Darren Fox, but when Harper comes in, he gets to run the show a little bit more within his role. Maybe if you have the political capital to do it, you just move Fox to the bench and start Harper out right. but If you're the number two overall pick and you're playing twenty two minutes a game in the regular season. Yeah, you should want more than that. Like I would be concerned if he didn't want more than that Kobe Eddie Jones vibes with this, aren't there? Is it a little bit? Yeah It's Kobe Kobe was like, I should be starting. I'm the best player in the team. and and remember like Nick Man Ecellent. And a lot of the vets on that team I think Bron Byron Scott was like on his way out, but we're talking like ninety six, ninety seven. Yeah It was, you know, they were like, this kid Jesus Christ. like there's there's that vibe to this And Kobe shown showed in big moments. It was like he did some brilliant things and he did some, you know, some rough stuff, but that's what that reminds me of But that's where it's different. Like if any of them between the two guys, Dereren Fox is the one making the young player mistakes. Like he's the one settling for bad shots. He's the one with some heinous turnovers Finals altering mistakes in terms of like going over that layup against OG and game four, for example Not saying Harper iss perfect. He had some bad turnovers too I actually don't think for as much as we have clamored for more for Dan Harper, more for Dan Harper, more for Dan Harper He just like does not have the organizational instincts yet to run offense at an NBA finals level. He's a great driver, an unbelievable finisher, especially for his size He's going to do amazing things in the league I don't even know that he was entirely ready for all this I think that is the big question is how much do you need Deer and Fox's steady hand to organize things when Fox is going right? And I think it feels a little too soon even next season to get away from that quality. Now, do you need that specifically from Deer and Fox, a guy who's going to be making a shit ton of money in the very near future I'm not so sure. Do you need basically just a stopgap solution, like a point guard, like a almost like Chris Paul four years ago or he's passed the point where says Chris Paul in there. That'll calm it down. Well justust lay Eera Chris Paul where you just need someone to do the organizational stuff, the adult stuff in the room so your young material talents can go be that. because like some of the lineups where it's just like Harper and Castle, for instance, like they don't work Totally partart because of the shooting and part because I think they're still trying to figure things out. I think Castle like kind of got away Scott free with a lot of blame there. I mean, he was very bad in game five, but like really b times he would be Overzealous defensively. I don't know if playing with Weemby almost like lures you into a sense of false comfortability because you could be so aggressive. and then like if he's not right, then like things just fall apart there. But I think Castle still has so much left to do. likeike a lot of what he's getting by on is a lot of just like innate physical gifts and intuition and his awesome feel. but like he's not refined at all. And so I think that's the question is, do you need Fox because clearly you need what he can bring when he is right I think you need somebody on this team who can actually settle the team down into their offense and make them feel like stable and level. And right now They just didn't really have those guys. likeike they were not a precise team in terms of their execution Sometimes Fox would have those huge moments where everything kind of turns to him and he would hit an absolutely critical like step back mid range shot in a way that is very important for what their offense was That just shouldn't be what the trajectory that the Spurs are aiming for is. And I think some of that could come from Harper. someome of that could come from Castle settling down I think a lot of it too is going to have to come from Victor Webinyama having an avenue for offense that is a little more sustainable and and like just something you can dial up beyond roll to the rim and we're going to play out of that. Like he needs go to definitive mid range offense That's the purv view of stars. That's what's kind of expected of someone in his position and he's physically suited to do it. I know you know, Zach has been clamoring on his pod for like the poor Zinggus type shot from Viictor Webinyama. I think that's a great call, but also before it was the Poringa shot, it was the Tim Duncan shot. Like if we can get Tim Duncan off the paintball course for a couple days over the summer to talk to Weimby about like Free throw line extended elbow type offense That could be such an easy easy thing for him. I think he either needs that or he needs the Dirk Laarcus Aldrred style baseline like turnaround, right? Like one of those two shots is going to be really important to his development and the speed at which they come on could determine how quickly the spurs are able to get back to a stage like this Oh, I have a lot of thoughts about this. U Fox, I think that one of the big issues is you nailed it when you were saying like they need the steying thing, but the problem is that you can't I made this point on Twitter that like Fox is not like Conley where he will come in and just steady and pick his spots. If you bring Fox on to steady You're getting the other stuff too because Fox in his mind rightly so, all star. plays like he thinks he's Michael Jordan, but really he's probably closer to the best version of his probably more like Warriorors Jordan Pool to be honest with you. It's a little boring. Like it's okay Now we're have know the mud No, I just think that the best version of of pool, I'm just saying of like on title team, I think he gives you buckets, but I think the moment you start to lean on him, you court these types of things. And I think this has always been my thing with Fox. This is why like I've annoyed the shit at Kentucky fans because I've always criticized Fox for this. Yeah stepping out of line with the with the fraternity here. No, they had a seven play sequence done the stretch of this game and this encapsulates what I'm saying. They needed Fox to steady them I wrote this down two eighty three The cool stat drop. Do we have that available to us? It's not a stat. This is just kind of a secret. So a seven place sequence and I think four or at least three of them. he settled for contest heavily contested step backack tos. One of them they run a DHO. he misses a twelve footer and it was heavily contested. They run the high forty five thing he gets scored on. let's see. And then yeah They run it again. He just had two or three different sequences there where OG is heavily contesting him and he just takes bad shots at bad times. I think they have a hierarchy problem where Rob what you're saying is correct. Victor needs to find more consistent ways where he could get to his own offense. If he's facing up, it's almost just like I'd rather him get the extra point and just take a three the long toos. I understand why they maybe wouldn't want to do that. Yeah you put him in a position to rim run and maybe go get it U But this is my I think that's an area where I get like a points per shot expected value conversation says one thing And I genuinely think the difference between being a forty two percent midrange shooter and a thirty five percent three point shooter is like a meaningful gap. Like when you're talking about settling possessions, I don't even care about the points. I care about what makes you feel stable. Chuck in Threes, especially for Victor Wbinyama, I don't think is ever going to make this offense feel stable But he's like a thirty percent three point shooter, right? Really and truly. as good as it looks it's pretty streaky Well is probably my strongest feeling about this, but go ahead, yeah. Well, how much is like a midrange shot like that bad at this point when you're that tall and you're basically just like not jumping and throwing it like into the hoop, basically. It's just like If teams are going to sell out I'm keeping him from the rim. it feels like the fate of the league is going to be dictated by whether or not he could be effective at the basket. just having the natural counter of being right there, whether it's a Sky hook, whether it's a Tim Duncan bank shot, whatever it is. just like just a pure mid range set shot. like I think would just completely unlock it because another part of this is like I also think the spur is inconsistency from is also like a pretty significant thing where it's like it feels like Champpanne is' the only consistent three point shooter and even he has like really like stark bouts of inconsistency even half to half. like even when he has like six threes, it's just like a lot of them come and bunches fromr the start but then these's are roue players Dude the sh thing is a problem. He was a like in not the problem highlight sn emoji. Oh my God, he was such a problem on defense in this series. That's a whole other gott to figure that out. That's a thing. If you had a more stable better version of that for, which we have been saying in mock trade scenarios for what? twowo years at this point, givei him while market him, give him this guy, give him that guy, like I think that would help. I love Champagnei. I think he's a really good rotation player. They're going to bring him back probably on an extension this summer. He's going to be part of their top seven top eight. But like should he be eight Maybe that would be a better su to role for him. Here an idea I had justust like trying to think through this sort of situation like Would you trade Fox for Michael Porter Jror. right now I don't think the Nets would Really? You don't think that they would take a bet on just the talent and just like having a star because I think the nets the problem with the Nets is like they just don't have anything at this point and Yeah out their pick next year. They're just counting on some of their many draft picks to to pop. att the very least like Fox gives you a North star to sell to fans, but having said that I don't know what they're going to be selling to the New York fan base coming off of N title. I think it might be fuck business wise for another couple h a New York fan base that just lost that just won a finals in large part because of Fox's Problems. Yeah, you send him to to Brooklyn. That's going to be really hard to get excited about I think Fox's contract is going to be pretty rough for whoever is in the in the market to trade for it. And take that apart out of it. I think there's a pretty decent basketball case that Michael Porter Jr. just going to be a better player from here on out than Deer and Fox is going to be. There' similar ages Similar points in their career, Michael Porter Jr is adding things to his game and everything we're saying about Darren Fox, granted played their injur during these playoffs. I don't want to discount that and the effect it had on his efficiency and his stop and go, all of these things. But a lot of it is just like the way he processes the game as a playmaker And he is he is a scorer. He is somebody who can draft off of a playmaking big who can work off of who can play the pick and role with someone like Victor Webinyama certainly But I don't know that he's a star who really changes your outlook even if you are a team like the Nets. I think it's more about doing something. Right, Kyle, like maybe I'm underestimating where the nets are and their trajectory But I feel like they just have to take a step towards something. Yeah If anything, Porter Jr. is probably going to help them Are you building around him? Yeah. It just kind of feels like he's probably a piece to like to swap to move forward. You mentioned the fox salary. I mean doing a little spot track, spo track, whatever it is. Yeah, that Fx deal is in the vicinity of Luca, Sacum, Anthony Edwards, Des Haliur. That's the type of money you're talking about.. And it's tough because if you were ever going to be in a disadvantageous leverage situation, it's like watching a team flounder the way that they did in the finals with with him at the center. It's like you'd have to give up you probably have to give up like Carter Bryant the twentieth pick Fox like it you'd have to give some kind of realist serious asset up here. My big kind of take finishing kind of bow thing. I think if you if you're looking at the spurs going forward is I in kind of conjunction with whether or not Wimy develops some, you know, self created offense whenever strong teams that are and these that's the other thing too is these teams are requiring bodies because The blueprint is there for how to b bother Wimby now. So you're going to start to see teams accrw these guys that I don't think that it's a size thing. I think that it's like solid bodied guys that can move like Mitchell Roberintsson Robinson and then Kat who stop his downhill progress. You're going to start seeing teams try to go get those guys I think that this spur era is going to hinge on whether or not Dylan Harper becomes an above average primary or an elite primary because I think ultimately Wimby is going to be like an offensive pippin type. grranted a very different type of thing. I just think that it's going to be so hard because teams are going to game plan to stop him from getting to his spots. If Harper can become an elite primary. I think that's the thing that's going to cause them to win a title like act to that What do you? I think it's even different than a Pippen thing. like I get what you're saying spiritually kind of like one A one B or one first option versus second option, but responsive. L I think it's going to have he's to be responsive. But Pippin was driving offense. likeike he's a ball handler. I think the difference with Victor Webinama is like he needs to be dominant in the way that historical bigs have been dominant, but all of those players had defining post games, whether high or low And Viictor Weebinama doesn't have that right now. He is a defense first star who creates a bunch of offense because of his size, because of his talent level, because of his handle But it's not refined enough yet. in a lot of ways that the spurs are not refined enough yet. I want to be careful with this because I I want to thread this needle for all of the criticisms that we're levying at the spurs They just got to the NBA finals. They got to the that's the I mean, they are, that's c czy. withith a m so high. Yes. I had these types of questions complepletely crazy. But the reason I think it's fair to bring this stuff up with Weemby, with Fox, with Harper, with just the youth of the roster, Champanney, like all of these things we're talking about as far as limitations that they have right now is You just can't count on the fact that you're going to be back. You can't just like put it in pen, you have to earn it, you have to change, you have to grow to get there. like If this is the emmpire strikes back part of the ark, like You gott to go out in the wilderness and like build that goddamn lightsaber, show up to Joba's palace with absolutely no plan and wing it and somehow win lame Kyle, frankly Is this the one with the dual lightsabers? Oh, come on. D't don't Don't be dor condescension when you're talking about maters and cucumbers You, come on I'm living off the land here, man. I'm living here in America Just digging in the 're out in space a break. Fking talalking about jabbwalke whatever I think I've seen them all, but can't say I've ever been a The Star Wars guy You guys are Star Wars guys? I feel like we're like up a definitely a Star Wars guy. No yeah. Star Wars guilty Okay huge. not good It's not a good kind of guy to be these days, but you know, we are who we are Times are tough. No, if you speaking about the like getting back thing, I mean the Thunder have really amused me. I'll just go check on their their Reddit and their Twitter kind of stuff. It's they're just seething about this and laughing about the sppurs thing too. They're going to be, I mean, they're going retool. That's the thing is like they were damed during that series. They're going to they're going to become I think it's pretty possible the Spurs don't get back next year just because I think they're going to be teams getting healthier and getting stronger and it's going to be interesting to see. veryy likely they could. But I just think You can't take for granted getting there the way that they did. So I don't know I just think the hierarchy thing really hurt them at different times, whether or not it's like not knowing who gets the ball likeike the Nicks knew We got we've got a transition sequence here like go like hand off into the stomach of Jalen Brunson, like this you get the ball here. And you saw that time and time again and you saw some moments of indecision where You know, what do we run like I think Harperper is going to have to grow into that guy and it's interesting because The spurs are just in such an interesting like historical spot where They have and this might be hyperbolic. I might get struck by lightning for saying this, but they kind of have like a spiritual carem on their team and a spiritual Duayne Wade like to like it's crazy and they're both under twenty two twenty two and under like it's going to be, I'm going to be really riveted to see where this goes. Well just to put a bow on the harper point because I agree with what you're saying For him, what is the next step? Is it more decision making? Is it being able to run in offense? Is it shooting? Is it all the above? or like how would you kind of rank which one is most important for them to take a step I mean, all of those feel like kind of pieces of the same thing to me. Like right now, I'm not saying he's a tunnel visioned player, but Dylan Harper's scope of what makes him excellent is pretty narrow. It's like between him and the basket, mostly in straight lines through whoever you want to put in front of him. L he's better at breaking down individual defenders and scoring through them Almost any guard in the league, frankly, especially guards who are not superstars yet. So it's about like, how do you balance that inccredible like scalpel sharp skill the ability to, okay, I'm now b I'm now weaponizing that to do what Jayen Brunson did, like looking people off to make me even more potent or hitting the timely passes or passing out of pressure. It's like understanding the bigger picture. So much of being a lead guard is about understanding what you do in context. And you can't watch a team that has floundered in the way that the sppurs have floundered down the stretch of these games and feel like, okay, any of these three guards has a really precise feel on what the team needs in this moment. Dyan Harper is frankly too young for that and part of it is taking your lumps. But also part of it is expanding that field of view to get. if I am this good at getting to the rim, this is all the other stuff that this opens up Yeah. I mean, the place you want to get to, I think the litmus test for like a superstar prospect if they if they're on that level is like what's implied about the way they play like offensively. I probably said this during our young court thing, but it's the way I always look at it where No, you'll see guys coming in the league be like, I can do a little bit of everything. It's like can shoot a little It's like, but there's another level of This guy does this thing so efficiently and at such volume that we got to stop him from doing it and Harper already has that. He already has that that super trait that you want to have. He can get to the rim like Rob was saying. It's a little like Anne Edwards when came into the league where it was like he was getting to the rim and you have that and so you start on the process of developing the counters to that U That's going to be you know, can he hit drible pull up jumpers? Can he start getting into the minutia that Jalen Brunson has mastered? And I think there was a play that kind of encapsulated that where Harper came around a ball screen and hit the brakes and thought somebody was going to hit him and shoot the ball. It's like those little things, those are the things that I think he's just really at the beginning stages of figuring out because he's just such an undeniable down force. I think he can pass the ball. think his right hand's going to need to develop a little bit more because you see a lot of what he does is that initial move get to my right hand. I think that brridges and OG bothered him down the stretch where he started to anticipate meeting somebody there and that made him miss that last layup. but Just starting on the counters of the playmaking and the shooting and things, he just is going to have to start on the journey of developing those things Why don't we take one more break We come back I want to talk through some trends and ripple effects from the next win The Ringer NBA showh is brought to you by Fanduel. Another NBA season is in the books, but the fun doesn't have to stop there. On the biggest stage in the world, Fandule is changing the game because sometimes your player gets subed off and your bet goes with them. Not anymore. With Fandle suuper sub if your player is subed out, your bet stays in. That's right. If your player leaves the match, your bet continues on with the substitute So, you're still in it until the final whistle because it matches like these, anything can happen and now your bet can go the distance. Visit fando dot com slash ringer NBA to get started now, twenty one plus sex states or eighteen plus DC Kentucky, Wyoming, gambling problem. callall one eight hundred gambler. call one eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven or visit ccpG dot org slash chat in Connecticut All right, It was a big day for a lot of people. Obviously New Yorkers Obviously longtime Ns fans or Nick emples Big day for Alicia Keys. Certainly. The royalties can you imagine Did you hype on that one balcony video at the top where the crowd sing in the song? I was like, oh shit, that's a be W fire escapes. little They're a little shaky. Having said, I don't like being in big crowds like that. I don't like being touched by sweaty people. and so I probably would have gotten out of there before that. Well, you would have been on the fire escape, you know? Y little per there from your ivory tower. I also don't do heights well, so that's a whole other issue U But we're l for liking Star Wars, rightool guy One's a fear, okay? I can't I have no control over that. Well, we're driven by love and you're driven by fear. I'm afraid of the world. But I did want to talk about outside of just the obvious people who celebrated. I want to talk about like what was a big day for these cortertain things, certain people, certain just aspects of around basketball and whatnot. I think first and foremost, as I was thinking through this, what a big day for the NBA Cup becausecause now we really have a nice little body of history here where it does feel like more like a precursor to what will come later in the season Then even what it was sold as was just like, oh, this nice little thing. like maybe the young teams will get involved and like this will be a showcase for the up and coming teams to have like a moment when people aren't really watching them. Really what it's become year after year is almost like a like a early marker of teams that will go on to have success. Like even the first year Pacers go to the Eastern Conference finals Last year Thunder go to that final game and then this year obviously we had the two teams that ended up playing in the finals. likeike all of a sudden the cup has some juice. I like it N just the two teams, which I suspect, you know, for the twenty twenty six cup, We're all going to have that conversation about whoever makes it. They're like, o, is this an NBA finals preview? like it was last year But it was also late point for plot point almost a replication of the finals, like the Kicks winning in that game with like veteran savvy and physicality and know how turned out to be exactly the way it played out. So Huge win for the NBA Cup Huge win for people like us and people who are invested in the regular season project of the NBA and any of this stuff meaning anything. Now there's another thing that could potentially mean a lot early in the season. Probably I went for Adam Silver in that particular regard as well. He needs them. He really does. Given a shit is still in style, you know, in some way, right? You know, the teams that have gone into the cup and done well. It's these teams that are serious. It's the Lazse fair like who cares? We'll turn it on. Like it seems like that's out of fashion, right? like the pacers, the it's the give a shit meter, you know, the more, you know redlining it is that it's that it seems like the cup has been a good indicator of that so far I'm glad you brought up the Pacers again because I do think that's another thing that probably had a big day here, which is teeams that are just like fucker, we're just going to build the best possible team that we have We saw the Pacers last year. Hallibton pops immediately just go out and get them help and build just a deep good basketball team that hit its stride and all of a sudden they're back in the finals one went away from winning it all. The Kicks also feel like a similar type of team where especially considering their history chasing every fucking star every year for so long All of a sudden, we're just like, all right, we have Brunson. We got a guy coming to us. And then they just went out and just built around him steadily, getting the sort of big bodies they needed around him, to stretch around him in order for to really highlight who he is. I do wonder, Rob, as we're kind of kind of transitioning to this new era of the CBA, like Is there something there where it's just like teams aren't fuzing around with the timeline and like punting this pick and that pick or just, for instance, just diminishing their possibility of winning in order to potentially get a top pick in the Ne trraft, just basically saying like we're just going to be the best version of ourself and hope that something good comes of it by continually being there in the moment in the playoffs and just kind of like giving ourselves a shot. I think that's what this era of the NBA basically demands. If you want to zoom out on the eight seasons with eight different champions, this like era of parody we have all kind of stumbled into together and frankly that the NBA has engineered with some of its rule changes The whole idea of we're going to play the long game. we're going to play two timelines, that is like dynastic hubris, right? That's like, oh, we have Steph Curry and Clay Thompson and And Dreaymon Green and Andre Gadala Fuck it, let's draft James Wiseman and like let's slowpl this thing so we can roll into another dynasty It's like it's like hyper decanting, you know? success. It's like decanting's out. hyper deccanting in. Not only is hyper decanting that's one regular decanting is out. The only game in town right now is popping that cork and just swigging from the bottle as fast as you possibly can because like your window is right now And it may not be there next year. Th things are evaporating so quickly in terms of teams ability to even get back to the finals, much less to repeat as champions. Yeah, I think the only unfortunate thing is that perhaps the window to use it Almost as an advantage, almost as a zag against the established way of doing things might have just like the door closed with this year because of the new tanking rules in place. Whereas like you're right, it feels like teams are gearing up in order to play in the regular season, God forbid, like we've never seen before, whereereas last year like A third of the league was basically playing for draft picks they can't do that anyore The jazz are who they are, someome of these other teams kind of are just going to make the best out of their current situation. Imost feel like the Nixon Pacer stumbled upon it when it was kind of a market inefficiency. Now it's just like how you have to operate because you do not know where these picks are going to land. Having said that, like there's probably always going to be teams that do the opposite that try to go against the grain. like maybe a team like the nets that doesn't have anything is like, oh, actually, you know, this pick's odds of getting the top pick are more diminished, but that's still better than what we have. We'll play for picks while everyone is playing for now. But like it does feel like we're entering that era of the NBA where it's like No, just just build the best fucking team and let's just like go here. And honestly, I'm looking forward to it. L the regular season could be awesome next year. There's a bit of a tension between those things though, where if the odds are kind of flattened in terms of the draft possibilities for many different kinds of teams I don't know that we're going to see a lot of like Michale Bridges style deals, right? Like where you're just throwing a whole trove of picks at a player who is not even an all star necessarily. but could be a great finishing piece and turned out to be an amazing finishing piece for your team. They're just like this I think a tension between the very aggressive kind of team building that often leads to championship level basketball and the natural restraint that will come from flatten the lottery odds in the first place. Well, it's like the Haliburon and Brunson parallels are interesting because Halliburton hadn't signed his Max yet, right? when they made a lot of those moves. I think he signed it. Is that right? I'm fuzzying. Were they timelined admittedly? I think it was before when they built the title what came to be final because I think his extension clicked in after the finals Yeah. and then Brunson situation obviously being really unique Well, that's that's the whole like rookie QB thing where it's like your rookie player stuck to the rookie scale is exceeding what a typical player in that age range would do. and so you could allocate that money elsewhere. That still seems to I mean, that's basically what what the Spurs did with Fox, for instance U And so like you're right, likeike it' still is valuable to have a good rookie player above all. like if the Mavericks hadn't clutred their books with so many like just league average like rotation players, like they would have that with flag for instance Yeah, I was trying to think of who else across the league. is in that situation. flag comes to mind. obbviously. I'm trying to think of other Well the jazz, like the jazz are about to add a top two pick and they've have all this money in Jereon Jackson and Lower Marketing already So I still seems advantageous.. All right, another one I have down here. Being an assole to your son because the Brunsons obviously have a nice little buddy cop thing going on here. but to be fair, it's also being an asshole back to your dad. Like once you've gotten a certain level of stature, you get to dish it back a little bit. But yes, but there are also all those like videos of Brunson and his dad on the black topop where his dad just like really given it to him. ye seemed like he thought something about the way his career went and he knew that he had to get his son to dial in in a way that like perhaps he didn't previously. And so Kyle ask you as a resident dad on the pod. think Jesus. This says anything about the way parents are going to go about teaching their sons from now Oh man. It's funny because they always make sure to include, I'm sure, just to avoid any kind of just chatter that would be annoying for them. he asked me every day, do I want to do this? They always included that little He oed in, you know? Yeah No mean, I don't know att five, I haven't really entered into like we're serious about any kind of discipline or or pursuit or anything. but It's it's a really interesting dance of, you know the Bobby Knight forcing people to learn a certain way model. I feel like that has we've figured out over time as a society, mayaybe certain parents are still clinging to that one, but forcibly, you know Getting people to do skill acquisition just doesn't seem to work in most cases. I know like I grew up with There are some forceful dads in our orbit when, you know, and used sports when I was growing up, Rob. I don't know if you had this experience, but bunch of those kids like We had kids that were like the best guys on our team that had like really, really forceful dads and they quit. a lot of them all ye out didn't even make it to varsity. It's a good way to make your kid fucking hate whatever it is you love to behave that way with that I think this is yet another way why like Jayalen Brunson is a totally anomalous player. Its like for every Jaylen Brunson, there are hundreds, if not thousands of kids who hate their sport because their parents treated them that way. So I guess you could take that as a blueprint if you think you're the one in the thousands, but I would advise against L lot of NBA parents that have kids that aren't interested in sports. I remember like I interviewed Stam and Gunny and we were joking I telling him, I was like, Yeah, my son. My son would like obnoxiously announced like because he thinks it's funny.ll he'll announce that I'm a basketball expert. That's a pretty funny one that happens. His sense of humor is becoming more and more of a problem. But I was telling Stavid Guty. I was like, my son doesn't give a cry about basketball and he was telling me that his kids multiple like don't care at all. So I mean it's kind of a thing of you just wait to see what the interest level is and then you kind of just it's a dance of inviting them in asking them if they want that intensity and then But hands off is the way to go, man. I feel like the more the more I like kind of back off and let him acquire the skills. This is a parenting conversation, sorry. So ye So trauma isn't having a moment is where you No conflicting trauma specifically. The indirect stuff is still there. It's going to happen. No, certainly Let him think he discovered it himself and that's the magic. That's, that's how you get him to. Ln sh. I like nly. I like that U All right, it's also a big day for remembering what Leon Rose looks like Like, I've known this for years. Yeah Every time he shows up, I'm like, Seriously. You're talking about because this is his first media availability in like five years, you know? Yeah, definitely on the DS he definitely sounded like it as well. I think he could have used a couple prractice chops at it, mayaybe do one press conference a year as opposed to like zero However many years he's been running things, but yeah, nice to see him. goodood job by you. Absolutely. St still just plums every time that that guy is Leon Rose wouldould you want to explain it? What is it that Flum I don't know He's he's a he's a very squat Jewish man as opposed to A black guy. he' You know what, I'm sorry I You think Leon Rodose sounds like a black guy's name. Okay. Yeah, I mean I mean, you know many crows? you know many crons in general I think some of that might just be Leon has phased out a style a little bit, you know These days they're all Aidens but spelled counterintuitively. So like what can you do So you guys aren't surprised by. I'm just surprised he's real person and not like five people pretending to be Shakespeare, but like, you know, there you go I think Jon Rose could probably kick your ass, Justin, just looking at him, out. I'm sure most people can probably. I have no shot against most people in the world mean, you said squatty. I was like, all right, I'm going descend Leon Rose here a little bit, you know Low center of gravity It's got that that wide base. It'll be fun Uh since we're talking about names, big day for Jails L huge holy shit. We're in like the apex of of Jalens last three finals, Jayalen Brown finals MVP last year Jalen Williams winning it all. this year Jalen Brunson being the guy. I have to say like is this the peak of all Jalen accomplishments that Jalen Brunson led the Kicks to the title given all the trauma with Nicks fans and all that other stuff. Dalens too though, right Yeah, but they're not as good. But the fact that we're saying there's some NFL Jallins, like if there was one on the level with Jayen hurton wed what's the see I don't even know that Jalen Hurts compares to this What did he ye we I'm just going to embarrass myself with lack of football detail knowledge, but yeah Yeah, they be the Super Bowl. wont He won the Super Bowl, right? Yeah. that's what I'm th with this unless you're just a Pilly sicko Yeah, he's he's always been a kind of a mixed bag. I think I think he's had some success, but even last year, I think he struggled and so fans are always somewhere Yeah, we're going to see this the Jalen Rose style spike of babies named Jalen as a result of this moment. Like a second wave of Jalin's Oh wow. This is second wave Jaylen, newew wave Jallen I think we're going to see a whole wave of Nicks fans popping up as if there weren't enough of them across the country, across the world as a result of a run like this, like genuinely, I think it's a real thing. And certainly Jaylen is going to become a household name in a very different way Did you have a sports name in state that was like big in like Texas and Connecticut? What was the what were the what were the sports names? because Kyle is I'm one of many, many millennials named Kyle because of Kyle Macy for Kentucky. He won the tit like people my parents' age A lot of lot of white dudes named Kyle in the United States. I feelelt for Texas it would be like Emmett or Nolan or something like that, but I don't know that I actually knew that many kids named those things I've been waiting to name my kit Kalid U I're still kind to gotten there yet. There were a lot of chembas, A lot of chembas. Not's not necessarily Humans, a lot of dog Kimbas. Oh, sure. Kimba's a great dog's name. Yeah get the vowel sound. I can't see people who name their dogs. You gotta have the vowel sound at the end of the dog U, I have Disagree Rob, you got you got a consonant dog? Is that interesting? It's gotta be this. I mean, I technically do have a consonant dog, but it is a vowel sound. so I guess we kind of sirted the rule on that U smallmall gds I have down here. we talked about that abstinence Big time for abstinence. You're assuming they adhered to it. Yeah, apparently Jim Dolan, I don't know if you guys caught this in N Beagley story jokingly And air quotes was like, you guys should refrain for sex throughout the entire playoffs. It just like I was just thinking to myself like what if Bill went up to Rob and just like this entire fight off of pods? just he just can't find a. I just I just keep thinking through. He wouldn't bother. Rob's such animal. Go just feel it's not worth it yet. I have nothing to say about any of this. Let's keep it moving Uh the ringer is top one hundred because the top spot in our rankings is just like impossible to figure out to the point where we did an initial wave of ranking After game four And it was split between six voters two for Wemby at the top spot, two for Yokich two for Sheay. And now we're at the point where it's split two ways between Say and Yokich Weemby has fallen off. But because Weemby is number two on every ballots, I think like he might be number one. So we have a weird tie scenario. You guys will find it out on Tuesday. I'm sure everybody's just on pins and needles waiting for this to happen Well nothing get notothing gets the people more hot and bothered just and than rank choice voting. L that's really what gets the blood pumping Ssorry, Portland in particular Um So I think it's just tougher than ever to figure out who the best player in the league is right now because I think you could make a case for all three of those guys where you fall. I think depends on like probably where you were going into the playoffs as opposed to like even some of the six things that like happened later on Yeah, I think we've learned a lot about a lot of different players. and guys like Kat, for example, I think have moved tremendously in kind of the public understanding and imagination I don't know that we learned a ton about Yokich that we didn't already know and I don't I frankly don't even know that we learned a ton about Sha that we didn't already know. other than when several of his teammates are hurt, he can't get past a team as good as the Spurs, which fair enough Well, I'm weird about Yokage, so I obviously tread cautiously in this conversation, but Youre not I still think there's a there's a Yokach There's there's another strong Yokage outing, I feel like. I feel like that a year from now, do you think how much do you think he could recalibrate that conversation and say, I'm back bitches Is that is that who play easily. He's He's Nicoolle Yokich. likeike he's fucking awesome. If he's not the best player in the world, he's the second best player in the world. Um, Yes. I think it really depends on how much they sort things out over the offseason. just feels like their team could be completely upended in certain ways or They just need to find a way to finally pay for what is an appropriate supporting cast, but Payton Washington say. they should open up space for him somehow and that should be it, but it's just not going to be as simple as that. And so like I already talk about Trade Naron Gordon because teams want him over, you know, Cam Johnson or Murray or something like that. So let's see what happens in the off season, but if they figure it out, obviously I think they have another Kind throw some other small victory winners at you, Justin I one more be. Well let's hear your grand finale. What do you have? We'll end on mine. Okay. How about the clutch genene? belieelievers in the clutch genene? Hm. Do we feel more confident that there is an inextricable thing that Jail and Brunson has that other players don't But you say that, But Der and Fox literally won awward. It's true over cllutch playler of the year But that was our misidentification of the gene. One like the testing is not incible ironies ever. Yeah. that's like, wow Did you get more than that?. I couldn't lose I think the clutch gene is like most sports conversations, but also basketball discourse, which is like clearly there's something there that allows a player to rise in the biggest moments, mayaybe it's even just like dispositional. Maybe it's like the ability to handle pressure. Maybe it's just like your anxiety levels or something like like it exists, but it got to the point where it became kind of an in joke where it's like,, cllutch gen just like it's this super frivolous thing we all ascribe to someone just because they happen to have a lot of highlights in those moments And so I think like recalibrating it to the point where it's like, yeah, Jylen Brunson comes through when it matters. Like I think we're back to an appropriate level of the clutchery. I like that. We just needed to reclaim it from the people who like have those reputations but shot thirty two percent in crunch time. Like we can take it back. We can take anything back Other winners of this postseason, other small victories. Casey Smith had athletic trainer for the New York Knicks was chased out of Dallas by Nico Harrison, fired over Zoom while he was attending to his ill parent Guess what the Nnick just had a very healthy playoff run and also historically great one. So shout out to Casey Smith Mavs fans really hate is that the is because there's a lot of u disdain for like Maths training Of course they fired the whole staff recently, right? At first they fired Casey Smith and some of his staff. Casey Smith, one of the most well regarded trainers and medical professionals in the sport. like has worked with Team USA for many years. So it's like very, very strange thing that Nico Harrison did before the other many strange things Nico Harrison did. But ha having said that, I agree with you that is a nice little lap for Casey I But then Brunson winning on the stage after letting him go doesn't reflect like great on the previous regime. Oh sure Becauseuse like I don't know, I think everyone wants to describe this as a purely Nico Harrison thing, but I feel like Mark Cubin's track record is more checkeered than it is good. L and he comes off trying to like take victory laps on like all the good things that happen. like And D Luca was not like There's a lot of stuff going on in Dallas for many, many years. The best thing that ever happened to Mark Cuban's PR was Nico Harrison. Like let's be very real about it. Yeah, cost pless drugs. Maybe so. that remains to be seen on that one How about this for other winners? The Eastern confference? L I have been a proponent of Western confference supremacy for a long time If you want to look at regular season record, it still tilts pretty heavily over basically any time frrame you want to look at Four and four in the last NBA finals, East versus West yet another win for it the era of parody in the NBA, I guess I do think it helps that the West is a bit of a bloodbath. you know, the sppurrs having to go through the thunder is something that the Kicks didn't have likeue as a little crucible there. And so that helps. but that's more of a reason why I was so flummxed by certain teams not hitting the button, the pistons in particular to take advantage of the window. like The path is easier there. you got to take advantage of it. And now the pistons's like I mean, we don't have to do like future power rings for next year or whatever, but like They're starting from behind in a place where they probably should have been dominating The leeague this year, the East is year It's true. It was kind of their shot, but They turn out to be flawed in a way that we're going to see if they can reconcile U I you hit on most of the ones that I was thinking about. The only other one that I have that's not really serious is Nike commercials. Big win. huge. ism back. Yeah. Chip hugein for Chipotle in these finals fueling McKill Bridges his entire life. Oh that's right. What is it with Chipotle specifically that people just have to have it daily? There was like the Dany Aange thing. There's sever be careful because that's a sponsorship I wouldn't turn down. W it now. No, I don't think we're throwing aspersions. I think it's like It is First of all, it's like at the top of the slop bl mountain, I think, as far as modern capitalistic lunches go reliable in every market in America. like you can just go find your little bowl of slop Eat it down, be somewhat healthy if you choose to do that. and then Male B's case get all the carbs you need to be a professional athlete No aspersions though, but bowl of slop. That's just what it is, is it not? Here's my thing with Chipol. I actually think I would go more if they stopped giving me so much. Like they think abundance is like what people are after. If anything, it's just like, you can't even wrap the burrito now Like it's just it's just fallen out whenever they give it to me. I just want a contained thing not something that's just like going to slop all over my hands Just, I feel like you're disconnected with America. I feel like as the rest of the country is complaining that like O Chipol is shrinking their portions, you're like, give me less food for my money please Al efficiency. the God honest truth here. it's that Moe's is the best restaurant of all those restaurants in that category.s true. The salsa bar, excellent. They have so many options there. They're hitting it out of the park. It's just and you get cudova but on the downward slide. H Doo is not good. U But in total, capitalism back Nikead. This soundad was not That got to be an narr legitimately great The Golden era of the Wyden Kennedy Nike TV ads, we had one like there was just a crazy. there was an notceion of great ads and I just don't feel like it's been a that was nice to see that I watched that was like Bllseye The only one I have down here is the Bahamen I feel like they're back. Sure how We were talking when it happened, but like Mike Brown, he went for it and I respect it. You know, okay, It was was a little fun thing that they did. Love to see a little color show on that, which is a very stayed. defefinitely situation where they around the day is like just giving can quotes But then he kept going. L he took two laps and I was like, brother, like You're doing a little much. How all you gott to do is go for it and you're off the hook? Is that what we're establishing here? You're like, Well, he went for it. It's like you should. So every single time in every situation, if I just go for it, you guys are going love. Obviously not like donon't turn this into a Tim Robinson sketch. L I'm saying if you're a champion, you're allowed to live a little I don't mind revealing your personality and doing whatever you want in that moment because it is your moment. I think it's like just knowing like what is acceptable and like just not Cring worthy, I guess Like to keep going to make a bit like a ten minute thing where it becomes a little uncomfort I think ideally, if you are going to let the dogs out You need one round of the h's and then you got to get out of there. Like you got to eject after that thing It's an in and out for sure. Yeah. All right. We'll be back later in the week. I think Wednesday or Thursday we're still trying to figure out our schedule going forward here. But thank you to Ben Cruz Thank you to Isaiah Blakeley, and thank you to Victoria Valencia. I mean, especially for the triple if not quadruple over time that they have been pulling all playoffs long. Like we get on here on the mic and just like spew our takes and get out of here, but Incredibly grateful for the work that they do. incredibly grateful for the two of you. This has been I mean honestly an awesome playoff right. I love doing this partod with y'all. Who left the dogs out It's all of us on this pod, the people, behind the scenes, people in front of the camera We're all dogs. And all dogs go to hea. Just make sure that your name ends with a vowel with a vowel. Exactly. got All right See you next time. twenty one plus imp present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen plus imp presresent in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem callall one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred My reset. Call one eight eight seven eighty nine seven seven seven seven or visit ccpG dot org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MG gambling helpel dot in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gambling Helppline mA dot org or call eight hundred three two seven fivezero five zero for twenty four seven support in Massachusetts. orall one eight seven seven eight hope and Y or teax hope NY in New York, Louisiana callall. one eight seven seven seven seven zero seven eight six seven