Real Ones of the Week: Ty and San Antonio

What's Poppin, Ruins, Logan Murdoch here. Howard Beck and Raj Beel and of you Rot hiss return We basically just ask the biggest questions about the finals and get them answered. What do we think? It's a big finals retrospective last pod. We gave you the in the moment perspective Um, it was a little loopy It was awesome it was all those things. But now that we kind of have cooler heads we want to bring Roger back into the bold It kind of just like Let's shoot this shit, man. We talk about the finals itself. We get in a really animated discussion about Weindby. Um, and just his his u villain arc maybe. And then talk about Mike Brown, talk about Darren Fox Um just kind of regroup and just do a little level set. went along this pod It was a lot of fun to know, man. It was great to see Roger back in the photo. It was great to have our brothers back And it was fun man Without further ado Toria B the te music P' thlling back over there, our brother, our guy helming O big my big hing Roger Bells is the mother fox house Well somemen Miss you. I'm doing. Chilling. Yeah, I'm doing good, man. Good to be back off the road. like everything is There was good good couple of weeks on the road when my son tied The whole world has changed since we last saw you. The next one is the championship Nothing know Nothing's the same man. My wife is as big a Nix fan as there is. so. Um, yeah, we I I mean, like it's it's a it's a good time to be a New York native, a fan of the Kicks. I would imagine the tri state area. everybody kind of claims a little bit. So Congratulations. What was that like for you though, man? Like we talk about Brntson, We talk about Windby throughout this post season But like What was your experience watching the finals, the last two games, four and five fo we were gone? What was that like? What were the biggest things that stuck out for? Yeah, u oot I don't know. it was hard for me because like I was I was in gyms, you know? so I wasn't getting, um I was at the MBPA topop one hundred camp and then I was at Sction seven in Arizona. So like I wasn't always able to sit there and really watch a game the way I needed to watch a game Um, you know, in fairness, I can't break it down like that because I just be making shit up. But what stuck out to me was just the resiliency overall of the Nick squad. Um I do think I made a bit of a mistake with how Jayen was able going to be able to figure out ensively how to be himself. You know, I thought that the Spurs had done such a great job on Say And he never seemed to get a great beat on it. I thought they would just quite frankly struggle a little bit. I still thought the Kicks would be okay, but I thought he would struggle. You know, I think the sppurs showed A lot of the things that we came into the playoffs worrying about whether they would rear their head in terms of inexperience and justust lack of of of of experience on that team from the top to bottom, I think showed up in ways that that cost them, you know, and that's to be expected. I thought I think Quite frankly, the fact that it didn't show up more prevalently earlier in the playoffs is is kind of remarkable. But I think I think all of those things were kind of takeaways for me And then the city, I mean, like there's just the city was on fire. likeike that was That was out of control But what It's so funny that, you know, the The Jal and Brtsson discussion is has so many different elements that we can go to, right? He's the out of all of the players that are that are he is compared to Um, the Luas the um, You the Anthony Edwards,, you know, all these smaller guards 's verse one to win a time someomewhere out there is a Chevy truck person who dries it? It's a Chevy person. There's probably no one, your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up, do the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something, and maybe you've got it too Chevrolet, togetherogether let's drive. Visit Chevy dot com slash trucks to explore the lineup Vital. Um, and One of the things that we talk about throughout this post season, Raja and you in particular were talking about just like small guards and can they get to it, right? and Can you win with a small guard whenin, you know, and we know this about San Antonio They were basically just blitzing Brunson any chance that they got, right Oh what do we learn about what how a small guard can be successful in this league And like what did he show you just from that type of standpoint where You know, they are belieifing him And it seems to not m matter down the stretch of games, right? Like because that was the biggest thing, right? It was the sppurs going every quarter except for the pk. this whole series. likeike how how did you how did you see that going Yeah, I've never been the small guard can't win and people are going to immediately be like, Ohh, yes, you did, but that's not what I T small guards. You're not winning One small guard, like one small guard They've won. I mean, Isaiah Thomas won You know, like people people I'm I'm just trying to think Steph u uh, Tony Parker like you can have small as relative, right? But like that's it's not a problem It's when you put two small guards out there that becomes that defensive real defensive liability. Um, that I then I start to wonder whether you can get it done. I think whenever you have your primary player being a smaller guard, you just have to get the recipe right around them. The roster has to be built in a way that can account for that and support that. And To a large degree, I think The Ns as a collective were supporting Jalen in a way that he needed to be supported when he was trying to work his way through figuring out the best way to attack what San Antonio was doing to him defensively until he got his feet under him and and then just started saying fuck it. like here's what they're giving me I'm going to go ahead and take that. And so that for me, that's what it becomes, right? Like if your primary offensive is going to be a relatively small guard that has some and this isn't a jailing thing. this is just in general that is also not ensively. you just have to get it right with the rest of that roster and the way you're built and the NX did that This episode of the Ringer NBA showh is presented by Ferrero the world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferrero Ener for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats like Kinder Bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling, or Kbler Chips deeluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks, or Ferrera Rochet squares, with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold Go all in Buy any two for raro brands and you could win one million dollars. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallinandwin d. com It's always funny to just see like star players in general kind of work their way through the finals, right? And you know you've seen it partarticularly I saw it firsthand with Steph Um, you know, you've seen it. I'm sure what Tony Parker and other guys where. they have to find their way within a series because the finals are a different beast where This is the best scouting that you are going to get against your game, right? And That's why you always see like the first couple of games of a final, especially from a star player. for a number one option is always a feeling out process. right you saw that with Brunson when he took thirty one shots Oh, then he finally kind of got his rhythm towards the end of the game Um, and you know, game two, he was, you know, seven of twenty five still won the game But then you see him figure his way through a series, like what's the scouting like during those types of environments and how do players kind of navigate their way through? because he goes from, you know, the first game shooting twelve or thirty one from the field in the final game, he scores damn their half their points. right? So like how do how do you how do you how have you seen players like that kind of figure their way through series Look, great great players figure things out pretty quickly Um Sometimes it's on the fly in the middle of a game. You know, sometimes it's from game to game. you know, typically what what What happens is youre you're getting, you're getting these looks that that They just confuse confuse you like fractionally. We're talking about split seconds of decision making time. that are the difference between whether you can execute something this clean look off or make the pass that's going to lead to a clean look or not And if I can freeze your brain, for that split second as a as a defensive Seme, I've won. I've done my job And so sometimes it's as simple as Going back to that film and a great player looking at it and realizing, yo That's not exactly what I thought it was. Like this is available to me over and over again And if I just commit myself to doing this And that would change from scheme to scheme, right? Like I think you saw Jayalen Eespecially late in the game Like there's a clip with his dad say like, yo, just go because he could go like he could get by But he was doing a lot of like not going different parts of the series because of what he thought was going to behind, right? Like whenenb' do that to you Iike dont That seven six like phhantom is out there somewhere. And if you can't really see him in your peripheral, you got to be afraid of him You know, coming and getting that shot, but then he just decided to just go at times. and sometimes it's as simple as just seeing the film and saying, o, shit I didn't see this in real time. O I did, but I was a little You know, I was kind of second guessing myself, but I'm just going to keep taking that Yeah and see if it bears fruit and then they've got to adjust to it, right? But like I want to be fair again. great breakdown of those last two games, but that's what it felt like to me. It was like like he's going back. And he's watching film Um And he's realizing that like this isn't any that he's never seen before necessarily. He's just got to realize what's happening and how he can take advantage of that. And then just Be committed to taking advantage of that. Yeah know, I remember there was one theory that sticks out went to your point about, you know, playerers kind of taking the lid off of a shot blocker And I'm thinking about like the er nine, u it was conference finals, Lakers nuggets where Birdman was like the shot blocking Savon at that time, right? And it was kind of like and everybody said they're up that playoffs and I remember Shannon Brown caught him on a fast break and just in his face, right? Just dunked all in his face and That opened the floodgates. four allow the rest of the team to just like not be as intimidated with Birdman as they once were. like, you know, I think Lamarrow them caught a body during that during that series as well. But what I'm saying I'll let to say is like when you see your star player or a player kind of take it to a shop bl in a series like that who's intimidating It really opens it up for everyone else. And I thought you kind of saw that as the series progresses is like The Nick stop being scared of Windy after a certain point in time and they would just go whether they were block getting blocked or not. And that's something that OKC just didn't do. They never kind of got to that point where they were like, okay, we're not scared of anymore. We don't even care if you get blocked. We know we're getting good shots and it's all good. So it was kind of great to just see that maturation through a series that you saw from New York. and, you know, they're veteran team And there are a lot of more you know factors involved in that But I want it to h real quick can I just say this so because I'm sorry I feel bad Howard, but like I think you're right. The two players that did that Annaobbe took him to the cup twice. once bodied him and dumped on him. And once he just went by and said, I'm not even fucking thinking about you and Kat did it to him a few times on the Hey, you can going guard me straight up. I'm just going to walk you to the basket and put you in the hole. And so I would agree with you. That's all I It's like's it's like punching Debo, bro at the end of the movie.s like Wimby is a bully, especially throughout this this post is and he showed that Bolks with the sha bloging and also kind of his his bullshit, you know, let's just be honest. and we'll get to that in a second But Howard, I want to talk about the lessons that we can, you know get from this post season and the finals, right Um beginning of the season it's wild We all just assume that a Western conference team was going to win this championship, right or rightfully so the Western conference on paper have the better teams it seemed like during this time, this the Western conversations beat each other's ass. And by the time that they got to the Eastern conference, there's no excuse. The Kicks won this series fair and square U not even taken away from them But what lessons should we take? from this season as an easastern conference and by its extension, the Kicks. There's so many ways we can go with this. But let's just start with that. What was the biggest lesson that we can get from this next title and how we kind of You know, look forward to the next season and maybe better producers I honestly think after eight champions in eight years all of them with a fairly unique kind of evolution and storyline that it's now almost futile to say, well If the Nix of the champions now and they did it this way, built this way with this kind of team and this kind of star player, what can others do to try to replicate it? And it's like, I don't know that any one model is replicable. Like I just don't Like I I the next start this run by snatching a guy who's a free agent who is a secondary type player who hasn't been an all star, who's had some nice moments but he's not a superstar You're paying them less than the max. Nody knew at theent that they signed Jayalen Brunson, maybe not even Jalen and Rick Brunson that he would become this, right So you can't replicate that. Now you can look for diamonds in the rough. You can be opportunistic. You can say, ooh, that team, Dallas Mavericks is U estimating, undervaluing their own guy. Let's go grab him. We think there's more there. Cool I don't know how many opportunities there are to do that. in this league. I think, you know, this kind of it's just like with, you know, Yokachen and Brunson both being second round picks who become finals MVPs The formula doesn't then become find a guy in the second round and hope he becomes an MP it also could become it also could become like I think about Gil because Alexandra last year, right is another guy that like, Oh, yeah we like him. He's this is undervalued on' and. we're going to trade for him. All right, so my buddy Steve Alardi, former analytics guy in the league, who I've cited a couple of times on this podcast. He had sent me this observation the other day. Last eight finals MVPs, their average draft position fififteenth So that's Brunson at thirty three, sha at eleven. Jayalen Brown at three. So there's the rare kind of like Weirdly rare topop three pick who became MVP Yokacha forty one, Cry is seven Janis fifteen, LeBron number one, of course and Koai. teen So in our in our eight year run of eight champions in eight years, eight different Fitals MVPs You've got, you know three guys who were drafted in the top ten Um Two, excuse me. And everybody else is is outside the top ten or excuse me ye, it was three in the top ten. Three And then a bunch of guys who are in the teens or a couple second rounders. So like good luck saying like, well, we'll just find our Yanis Or we'll find our Kawai or our yokach or our shei or It's like Scouting is super important. Development is super important, but I think the most important lesson of this Nix era is Once you get the guy and you realize, ooh We didn't know that we had the guy Capital T capital G at the time that we signed him, we had hopes But once you see him evolving into that, you do everything possible to surround him with the right kind of players, right And I remember in real time, like I loved the Oan andobbe trade It was painful for Nicks fans because they loved Emanuel Qickly and they still had hopes for RJ. Barret and Flipping those guys for Ananobbe who had an injury history. The raapors were a little down on him because they knew he wanted, you know, a max deal that they were not willing to give him because they didn't think he was worth it. They saw him as like great defender who can shoot the three, but you know, puts the ball on the floor, you start to cringe. Like they weren't sure he could be that that complete player And the Nicks are like E it, this guy is the perfect guy to have. We have Jalen Brunson, who's going to be a defensive liability, but a great offensive engine We need OG and Oi We need McKill Bridges. And then Nicks fans are cringing again. and I'm not blaming Nicks fans. a lot of people cringched at the draft capapital cost of getting McKill Bridges But you needed those guys. you needed guys like that Mitchell Robinson, the only Nicks draft pick who is a serious part of this rotation And he was from the previous administration. He's one of the lan holdovers. They got rid of everybody because they saw what they had in Jalen Bronsson. And they said, theseese are the kinds of players we need around him that it happened to also be a couple of Villanova guys, allough the more, you know It's great for yourwest influence there there, you know, a little bit Probably Um But it was just it's a really smart methodical patient build an opportunistic build and those are none of those are are descriptors you would have used for the Nicks the way they operated for the prior twenty years But it does that is if there's a lesson, that's kind of the lesson for the rest of the league is you know, you have to be a little bit methodical and patient and then, you know, once you see the opportunity, oh shit, there's no Gan Anobbe available, boom. let's go get ' them. I don't care what it cost On the cost part of it, though, by the way I've said this before, but I want to just reiterate this This was not a big market stomping everybody else with their incredible resources and influence and whatever. They didn't attract like, yeah, guys like playing in New York But they got Jayalen Brunson mostly because they identified him, but also yeah, he had a preree existing relationship with Leon Rose, who was his dad's agent and is Jalen's godfather and all this other stuff. It wasn't about New York, it was about relationships. But their payroll was seventh this season. Now that's still top ten But it's seventh Not number one, not number two, not number three. this wasn a team that was just like throwing its money around. Now it's going to get higher. Like the payroll iss going to keep growing. They're going to start having tax concerns and teck and apron concerns and whatever. But this was not some big market buildill. this was a Any team lesser resources in any market could have done somethingomething like this And so I think that's important to note too about I thought a lot little about the Washington Wizards d during this run and And I think team they' just Sorry. the reason why I did though is because no the reason why I thought about it is because like I think that's just going to be the new model, right? Like I think that you're right and like I think the teams need to have a vision for what they want to do, identifying players and building around them, right But I think what you're also going to see And it were amazing to be seeen, you know, what the Washington Wizards holding this, but I thought about their trade young trade. whatever they, you know, I don't know that they think that he's going to be Brunson and what the future is going to be, But I think you're going to start seeing a lot more flyers being Um taken, right? And just a lot of teams just saying fuck it. like let's just try it, especially with the Eastern confonerence the way it is, right? And like, hey, maybe we can do that and maybe we can get into the mix and u It's a longer process with the Nick showed us. That wasn't overnight. This is like the second Se u how would I say this one? The second infacy or the second version of this type of team right? because they traded for cat and they did make metamorph have a metamorphosis as they, u you know, went on, but I thought about the wizards and that like I think they're the model of what teams are going to be because not all teams are going to get this right, but I think in the new Um The bargain groom in the new era that we're, you're just going to have to just try shit and pivot. And I think that is how we're going to see and I'm curious to see what type of movement is going to happen, but I'm also curious to see like How many of the bad teams just try to use this model and just kind of Maybe just try to sort circuit and be like, hey, we're just going to do this really quickly just to get better because the NX did it when not actually seeing, hey This was a methodical multiye process We'll see I think it's just a good a bad thing. But I thought about the Wizard because I was like, o, okay, it's a curious move to getray young, but maybe their vision is like, hey, maybe buucket is' a It's a wide open easastern conference. Let's just take our chances and you know, we might be validated because the Nicks did a version of this. Maybe less wide open than it was, right? because the Dicks are now champions and the Celtics are still formidable to say the least and we'll see what they do if they end up with Yon us or not And the pistons maybe one player away from being like super good and they were a sixty win team last year U and the pacers are getting Halliburton back and are going to be right there in the mix. So I'm not sure how how wide open it is. I think there are multiple contenders. We can call it that way Um, sorry, Cliff, no U No six is two, broke Ciff stop six stop. Listen, Cliff, you know how how much benefit of the doubt at my own expense of my reputation. I was giving your team for the last year or two. I think I'm done for now Um The top of the East is now really formidable And I think that's interesting. The Trey Young thing is interesting, Logan because Another small guard, right? Like it's not and it's like they not like they're building around him because they also got Anthony Davis. I'm not sure how long either of those guys is going to be there. So quick asterisk on all of this. I don't know what the Wizards are actually doing. But if those guys stay They are trying to accelerate their build. They've got, you know, a great pick coming and more talent and they've got some, you know, the Alex Sars and everybody else's. U I don't know what to make of the wizards yet, but they are they are banking on another small guard in Trey Young. Qick note,ick Doug us go back to the small guard thing for a second Um Because a friend of mine was hitting me right after like literally hours, I think, after the championship and saying maybe it was the day before, but it was like Why whyy are we stuck on this thing Didn't Steh already disprove it. Did't Isaiah already disprove it. And so I had to like step back and think about it for a minute and why we're still stuck on this. And maybe we'll be less stuck on it now that Jayalen Brunson has led the next to the title. Um I think Jalen's listed to like six two, six three, but like that's a really, really generous like I've s stood next to him and I don't think he's that much taller than me and I'm a tad under six feet. So Um Steph is listed at six two. Isaiah is listened at six one Isaiah Thomas had Dennis Rodman, Joeumars, Bill Mmber, Markcguire, Rick Mahorn, you know, for those two championships, some combination of those guys So yeah, small guard, but like with Brunson, you had the right guys around you and in Isaiah's case likeike serious Hall of Famers. And like like Dennis Rodman, Freak of nature and like an all time unique player stuff You know, he's the greatest shooter of all time. so he's an anomaly anyway So you can be you could be short As long as you're short and the greatest shooter of all time. That would be the lesson of Steph. Also having the second greatest shooter of all time and Clay Thompson next to you, also having one of the greatest defenders of all time and Draymond Greene there and oh yeah for championships two and three, Kevin Durant Um who is way taller than six two Um So like there there are circumstances around both Steph and Isaiah But there's a reason these are rare becausecause it is harder to build championship team around a small guard, like Saying it's never is the problem Never, you can't, won't, never happen. That's the problem is being absolutist about it. Is it harder? I think, yeah, I think demonstrably over eighty years of the NBA, you can see that it is The other thing to remember historically is that when Michael Jordan won in the nineties and then won again and again and again and again That was considered a seismic shift because the league had been dominated by the Koreemabduljge Bars and the Wilt Chamberlains and the Bill Russells. And oh yeah, magic and Bird come along, but those guys are like, you know, S, seven, six, eight. Uh and also had like Magic had Kim Bird had Parish and Mchale So Michael at six six as a shooting guard, building a championship team, a dyasty around a shooting guard was unheard of until Michael did it. And so that was considered a seismic shift at the time even. So the size mattering part of this It's understandable. like this is the history of the NBA. We are still stuck on this thing about small guards in part because We had a model for a very long time. You need a diamond a big. or then you needed Michael Jordan or Michael Jordan Clone, Kobe Bryan even then Kobe had Shack. I think you's need great players. I think that's the I think that's the the mon here. It's hard to build It's hard to build teams because there's a there's a there's a small amount of big players. If you if you sorted the MV the finals MVPs of every finals in history by height the number of guys you're going to get at the bottom end of there in the six to six two range I think that's going to be the smallest category Well, for a long time, look, for for a long time They didn't ask six two players to be primary scorers. likeike that was not What a point Gards role was through decades of the NBA existing. likeike your job was to set the table and let the big do the work. We' let the wing do the work. So I do think we're in a in an interesting like era of basketball where peopleeople are realizing, you know, Those guys have offensive weaponry in their repertoire too doesnn't mean it's any less easy for them to win at that size, but like that they can be primary scores in a way The generations past, they weren't just even interested and hearing that. You know, like AI I was A AI gets they got the recipe wrong around AI What they tried to do is just make it all defense You know You need a you need real offensive weaponry with that primary score. So that when they make that blanket defense for him. you have an OG or a cat or someone that can Supplement to the tune of thirty five or whatever that looks like to keep them honest. and we didn't have that I just look Tony is another one. likeike if you go back and look at that team Carly it's Tim Duncan's team, but like On any given night, Tony Parker was the problem Like he was an absolute problem. He's got a finals MVP Yeah, It little fination. Look at the Chauny Billet led pistons like Chauuncey six two. three I mean, they had a real team. no disrespect to Rip and all of those dudes, but like Chauncey was kind of an engine of what they did. likeike it can happen you just have to get the recipe right. And we're in we're in an age now where Quite frankly, you might see it. more and more because a lot of these dudes are being play the game not just as a facilitator Like you're having more people come in to this league Um, Young blood with the Sixers. Whats sorry, dude? Why am I draw a blaze edge? Bed com V Maxy. Well how big is Maxie? sixix three, six two? Three, six, two, maybe six four on a good day. I don't thinkick six four. Listen a six two Yeah. And if you're listed at six two, like you might be six one So like I've never stleood next to him, I don't But the point is Like you're you're in an era where that's going to be more accepted and you're going to have more people willing to swing at someone at that size that is really, really good at putting the ball in the cub and then trying to build around that special talent So you might see it more, I don't know I did want to add one other quick thing here just as an observation because I think once Brxton has this absolutely,' incredible game five and an absolutely incredible last eight minutes of game five the championship, F finals MP worthy of all of it worthy of all the accolades. He was amazing Lost in all of this is that the Spurs actually did a pretty damn good job on Brunson for most of the series and and especially the first three quarters of most of those games. It was the fourth quarters of the final minutes of games that they gagged Um, Jayen Brunson Five games in the NBA finals, he shot forty three percent on twos. That is a career low in any playoff series for Jalen Brunson by a pretty decent measure Um nineteen assists in the series a career worse. Now that was just five games excuse me n twenty three assists nineteen turnovers in five games. That is a career worst and he's had longer series than that. So nineteen turnovers in five games is pretty bad Po being And especially through the first like three or four games I had done this exercise, like all of these things were among his career worst. Field Go percentage, turnovers, assists. They were doing a good job of bottling him up Ecept occasionally he'd say fuck you, I don't care what you're doing to me. I don't care if Weemb' standing there. I don't care if Castle's on me, I don't care if Harper is on meike I don't care how many great defenders you have to throw at me It's my time and I'm doing my thing. And that is the greatness of Jalen Brunson. It's that you can he can get bottled up or a little rattled or maybe not rattled. they did have him in tough places to make you know, taking and missing tough shots. But when it's winning time That's what that dude is wired for. And that's the part that you cannot quantify no matter what his size is or anything else. Like that's the greatness of Jayalen Brunson But they did do a pretty damn good job and also not for nothing, of course, Weemby is the key to that u that defense And you see the on off numbers every time he sat, They win the minutes he's on the court. They lose the minutes he's off the court. But in fourth quarters, he's gassed. And again, if you go quarter by quarter on Weemby's personal net rating inccredible off the charts plus in the first quarter. It's a little weaker in the second, third quarter and it falls off a cliff in the fourth quarter because he was gassed. And so You know, there are two still two sides of the equation here and this is a case where the spurs could not muster enough of what made them of what got them those leads, They could not sustain it in those fourth quarters because they were gassed inexperienced both whatever' the same. I mean, it's all goes that all goes together. That's that's Yes gast inexperienced. like this is When when we came into the league, like this is what people were saying. likeike I think when When some of us older people said his body, like didn't manifest itself in regular season him being heurard or anything like that. There was a lot of people, you know, saying, oh, that was no that's that that wasn't going to be an issue, but that is something that gets better over time Like he came into the league And it got better to this year. and it was incredible, But it will have to take another jump in terms of just his overall strength and ability to absorb punishment that he has to absorb over the course of a season to ultimately be in the type of condition to finish those games. So I just think that that's a That's a young player on his arc. Those two things go hand in hand, you know This episode is brought to by Netflix. The T mobile home run derbyies right around the corner. might be one of the best showcases of pure power and all sports baseballs Biggest sluggers. some legendary Announcers, Puhos, Rizzo, Bonds, Sabbathia Al Duncin. Yeah Hunter Pence, Matt Fast Kirzian, a whole bunch of people. And it's the one night where you don't swing to make contact to make history. I'm interested is who what Bon says about this actually. Anyway, it is all live from Citizens Bank Park In Philly, watch the T mobile Home rununser be live on Netflix Monday, july thirteenth at eight PM Eastern five PM Pacific This episode is brought to you by Nas Energy Every on of dirt, sweat and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard fought place They're all jammed inside every can of NASA energy High performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal, human horsepower For the streets, go ahead, crack open a can of NS energy and get after it. Eing by his remorse Buy a new car. I'll be booo Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice? I guuess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carbana. Limitations and exclusions may apply Si your Sunday return policy Carona d comot.ure, I' I tell you what the monks better implement some conditioning jlls this summer with Monday Smoke's got to get him in the gym. They got to get him in the gym okay?t get his ass on that block. Yeah. listen. All right'ss no I know how crazy that sound. discussion. No, no.. I know how crazy discussion right now. because there was some other stuff Nick related that we will get back to, but I want to have the oney discussion right now. I'm gonna to say my observations, Roger, and I' want to throw them your way There was, I think Ever since after game one of the conference finals when he had that forty one in twenty four game. There was a lack of aggression from Windby throughout the postseason, I believe, right. And we talked about it even the start of this Nick series, right where it was like there was a lot of settling for threes. there was a lot of just and decision The lane was right there when I remember I think I said this after game one or two. I'm like Yo Kat is giving you the lane, bro, go to the cup And there would be maybe one or two plays where he would like kind of finally figure it out. and usually it was when the spurs were down that he would maybe get a dunk with the left hand. And then there was another thing where I mean, the port point guard play in the finals from the sppurs was just atrocious.'s like point guard specific play. And I know Dylan Harper played really well. We'll get to him in a minute But like The combination of Darren and Fox and Stefan Castle in terms of trying to organize an offense was really, really bad And if he had if Windby had a point guard, I believe it's like, don't get your ass in the block. I'm not passing you the ball until you get your ass in the block. The Nicks went super small. And he still wasn't dunking under their faces, right? Like it was just such a That's my observation, Rosa. D my own point. how did you feel about his aggression or lack thereof aggression in this post in this final specifically Um, Pink car playay was less than than Stellar for the spurs. I don't think point guard was the issue with Wemby being where he was on the floor I think that is becausecause of Wendby's skills set, I think that the Spurs identified what he does well and where he likes to get the ball And that's what they had to play out of this year So I don't think a point guard telling him to get on the block was going to make him go to the block. He does not want to be there Like that's not where he wants to be over and over again Um, I I You know, Yeah, there were there were Look, man You could see a lane from twenty to, twenty three feet to basket. You could look, you could see it And at seven six like That's a lot of body and a lot of time that it takes to get from twenty three feet. five feet from the rim. Right? And so And there are four other defenders on the floor that disrupt that And so You know, it's not as simple as saying, oh, there's a lane, go get it Like he's he's looking around. he's seeing people in gaps. He's seeing somebody loaded behind it. likeike There's a lot going on. That's why I say You ever been to like the YMCA or you're in pickup games or go watch a old pro like me, and I'm not comparing myself to Wimby at all. Let's get that straight If I went to play right now, Do you know where I would play most of the game? on the cor. play it in the I play it in the mid post Okay I play it in the mid post to low post. provroided I had a good match upp and I'd live there. it takes less out of you That's Leron learn It takes less out of. you know how hard it is to be living from twenty three feet? You're talking about a guy who's already gessed Yeah already is kind of slight a frame and you're saying his numbers are dropping off a cliff in the fourth quarter and you're going to ask him to have to work from twenty three feet away from the basket All night every game le for him with six minutes left of the fourth quarter It's ridiculous No it's not ridiculous. I shouldn't say that but it was kind of ridiculous to watch because And again, on his arc, he will get this, but he doesn't have to turn into a to the basket post player like Shaq, that's not what anyone is saying. That's certainly not what I'm saying What I am saying though, is that there are times in a basketball game. where because of The defensive scheme, the spacing on the floor, your level of fatigue, it behooves you to get a better catch in a more desirable position on the floor where it's going to take less out of you to execute said shot Yeah Right And that could be a fadeaway. that could be that could, you know, whatever you feel comfortable with in those spaces mid post to low post, do it But get there. So the catch is easy. Yo, just put it to my hand Now I'm seven six. I'm just going up over the top of. There's very little you can do with that Michael Jordan was six, who blocked his fate. t work Kobe was six, Wh blocked his fate D on You're seven five Like there's a reason Kobe, there's a reason Kobe didn't always have me out in space or the better defenders out in space trying to beat them off the bouts. That's fucking really hard and there's a lot of people helping us So what was Kobe's answer? Hey bro? Get off of the ball. I don't want it out here at the top of the key. Let me get behind the defense Give it to me in the mid post to like three quarters And I'll get a catch. I've got a live dribble And now I'm Rj is smaller than me And I'm just going to play him here with a live dribble and I can see the defense come in. and most of the times it won't even fucking matter because this is just going to be make or miss for me, dude. And he needs to find that. they need to find that for him. That'll help them carry in close gaines Rogja, I felt watching this series like and I told Howard this this was a discussion point after the finals. It was like Damn I can't wait to see Winby in three years because in a lot of ways it felt like the Spurs team Head Supreme talent. which is why they got here, right? And you know, they had, you know, gumption you know, they they were a better team againsts okay, see all those things When I say that they got in on talent, it was like there's other things that you can do to make the game easier that the Nix kind of mastered down the stretch of games that the Spurs just didn't have yet, right? Like once we were always talking about one is the oth she going to drop in terms of their lack of experience. And I think that this is what we saw. But one of the biggest takeaways that I saw was like, damn Wby, you can make this game easier than it is right now for you. just with just some simple stuff, right? And He just isn't there yet and that was the thing that I kept just seeing seeing. U Let me just I'm sorry, because like look, we talk about unicorns and we talk about you know, skill sets and we talk about all that. and then Go to every go to Greet. Like go to the Gs And look how Their skill set when it matters, the most shrinks I mean, they don't lose the skill set, but they don't rely on having to pull one thousand different skills They distill that down to a couple things that they really want to do You a couple spots on the floor that that ideally really like to get to That's what they do. Because it simplifies it You know, it's it's it's It's almost a master like a jack of all trades and a master of none Right? Like You need to become a master of something that's in those areas that that It becomes easier for you late in games, not just from an execution standpoint But from a thought process standpoint, this is where I'm going. This is what I want to do. Should I just talk to fucking ti about that in a car today Like, yo, bro, you have to have something that you know given Four seconds any given spot on the floor, this is what I'm getting to provided you let me get to that. If you don't have that You're just drawing at a bunch of straws, like you're just trying to catch shit in the air Yeah. let's talk about how we what we think about Limby before these playoffs vers after right because the game is one thing Rainbeck But It seems like there's a bit of a villain arc that is coming across, right? Like he I referenced him being a bully throughout this post season. like There is the alleged like, you know, targeting that he was doing in the OKC series. There was the shit that the bullshit that he was doing to Jayalen Brunson when he was giving them a little hip check. like he was what's up Can I ask y' a question? because I know the whole ref thing was I did see the ank. I did see that yall feel what I'm saying now. Y'all sa anle role You saw Jayen Bruson get a flgrrant one for stepping under someone earlier in that series, bro. L And then you saw, but then you saw win you filming stepping under people as well. likeike But that's what what I'm saying though. and no and and you're going to review that and we don't give a flake Yeah What are we doing? It's like it hold Hold on hold hold on hold on hold on, hold on. But like from what I see Roser is that on one hand and this is like the perfect villain thing that I'm thinking about, right? Because on one hand You're giving the impression when you do that that the league feels some type of way about this player and doesn't feel another and the players and everybody else has started to feel another way about him, right? Because we saw the Naz reid situation where he doesn't the punishment didn't seem like it added up to the Asion, right? We saw the stepping up underneath people. We saw him get these curious ejections. We saw him fuck up a star player on the other team and like no retribution, right? And so feels like a turn, Howard Beck. It does feel like that I'm sorry I want to catch you. I just want to get that point out that we're starting to see these instances where there is a gap between where the league is putting this guy and where the league's players are starting to feel like, hold on, Broro, what the fuck is he doing man? Like this is a there's going to be an argument like this my fuck a dirty player, dude. Like this is your guy this is your guy right here, right? And he's got shaking hands after a game. Any of the series when he loses? Oh, okay, but show. you really don't fuck with us. You don't really fuck with what the game and the basketball guyss require of you. We see what's going on here. I can definitely say players are starting to feel that howouse. Real quick. The landing zone violations, which if you catch them in real time are of course a flagrant one. if the officials determine that that's what happened. you didn't give them space to land fun little trivia note here because I got this information yesterday. Do you guys know the last time because they didn't catch it in real time, right? And then the question became o What's upgregious Ere should they have gotten shouldh they have then upgraded it retroactively? And in the case of game five, if there had been a game six o, are they going upgradeed retroactively? Now the league has to decide whether or not Wimby's going to be suspended for a game six Real quick. Do you guys know the last time You don't, but I'm just going to ask you can guess The last time the NBA retroactively gave a guy a flagrant for a landing zone violation that they missed in real time. So the league Damon Rroactively a landing zone violation. I don't know who it was. Do you know how long it's been since the last time They retroactively give was like D and Rose. What was is Dl Rose into finalals in two thousand, right? Was that even a rule? I think it was a rller Yeah. It was like untils Jaza and Kai. so I had people do that to me intentionally and there wasn't even a foul or anything called so It was a thing back then Bruce Bowen did it all the time. Hi, Bruce. Yeah. It has been since twenty nineteen, the last time the NBA retroactly gave a guy. So I know this was like a talking point after the first one after the second one and what would have happened in a game six. The NBA while they do review everything and they do assess retroactive flragrance and sometimes even retroactive technicals It's super, super rare for them to issue a retroactive landing zone violation flagrant. I think because it is not consonsidered as egregious, These are not. These are not intentionally violent plays. Sometimes it's just you get tangled or you drifted or whatever. and the case of the last one with Wendby and Brntson, they both drifted I think it was definitely over I think they definitely missed it U But I don't think the NBA was going to retroactively give it and not because of some conspiracy to protect Weby, but just because they very rarely do it. twenty nineteen was the last time. So it's just a worthwhile note as people You know, there was no chance. Yeah. there was no chance. But but mean But also Raj, not because they're protecting women, but because I understand I understand what you're saying. saying I slightly disagree with that. Like It was going to be convenient It was going to be convenient for them to lean on we rarely do this but even if they had done it, they weren't doing it If Draymond Green does that in his prime in this playoffs and he has get out of the thing. They're giving the fuck out ofro. Your history matters though let's not don't do say But her history matter. No, but what I'm saying th, Howard right now is Wimby is your history should matter like that. It does Wh should why Wh wait, wait, Howard, why should your history matter on a because your history should Wait a minute, your history should matter on something that's subjective. That's not subjective. You fucking encroached on his landing zone. The rule says, if he comes down on you, that is a fucking flaggrant. That's not subjective. So like now you're talking about like pushing and shoving and all of that and you want to say, oh, well, that didn't rise to the level, but his history suggests that he is an instigator I cosign on that, but on something as cut and dry as a landing zone infraction when your other star player has clearly rolled his ankle, I don't think your history should come come into play there. That's cut and dry. No, no, you're right, there're different things. I agree with everything you just said. I'm only objecting to Logan's invoking of Drymon because he's such an easy trigger point. If Drymon had done XYZ, yeah, Drmon does a lot of shit And he has a hair ling one violations' landing zone violations. You're right, just like a foul is a foul. You don't like like, oh, that guy never fouls a three point shooter. We shouldn't get give him this Yeah That's that's a fair point. That's a fair point. But also I would say thisough like I do I do believe that is a fair point and I will give you that I do believe though that coo season Wby you starting to build a reputation? I think that is very clear. You asked me that clear cut And I hadn't answered yet. Interesting because like It's only year three for him, right? And I think over the course of his first two years O our broad impression of Weemby as a personality, as a figure as well as a basketball player is polished beyond his years. He's thoughtful. Yeahah, he's going and hanging with the Salon monks, but also like he's reading books and he's going and playing chess in Washington Square Park. And just his interviews are very thoughtful Um, And so I think that the broad outline of him, the impression of him that we have perceived and that we as the media have then, I think, amplified is this is a guy who's really polished and professional and thoughtful And you know, and in a lot of ways comes off obvious very like Um ind feels like the wrong word because he iss a competitor, but like there was just an aspect of him that seemed to be kind of, you know, almost like this like, you know, viruous basketball figure, right?'s dominant but he's not He's not vicious, right? And we've seen guys who model themselves as killers. Kobe would refer to himself as a killer Irverson was a killer. Jordan was a killer. Shaq wanted to stuff you in the basket. And we didn't see Wimby that way in part because of his frame, in part maybe because An There's always the European thing It's a lot of things, but this is the first time over the last few weeks where it's like, oh, oh, he's got an edge. And at times that actually came off, I think ass positive. like in the Thunder series Some of the things he was doing it was just like, oh, I like how emphatic he's being. I like how aggressive he's being. I like whatever. And then the finals it spilled over into stop too L that Yeah No I take that those narratives, bro because People don't give Lou Dort that kind of grace Okay, my do History history of Blling shit You industry know, but he's got a his But you ain't seen the clip of this man trying to kick somebody's knee If that had been Lou Dort in the finals, people would have lost their ever loving mind. in part because who his getting to. R But now you have a history again. But now you, but now you have a history. You have a history now. Now he does. Rajah. overver the last two weeks. now he does. Now next season if you want to say he's got a hory. He tried to break someone's he tried to break someone's face in the first round of the playoffs. He tried to decapitate someone. Howard? It was his likeike you guys think that's funny. I tried to like no, no, no, there's this isn't even debatable I won't even debate this with you all. What he tried to do to Nas Reid was break his face And everybody pawned off like it was not this big deal. I've been there. likeike he tried to break that man's face. I think what I'm trying to say here, Raja, is we had an impression built on a couple of years of him playing a certain way and presenting a certain way, speaking a certain way And that has changed in the last not maybe just two weeks, maybe the last Six weeks, whatever it's been starting from Naz Read forward. Until the Nz read thing happened, there had not been a Nz read thing That's my point. It's not that we should let him off the hook or that we should view him differently than Lou Dart. It's that Lou Dort already had all this built up. So every time he does it, we go, there goes Lou Dort again Now that Weemby's done all this for the last six weeks, if you want to say there goes Weby again, fine. And if you want to say he's dirty, however you want to classify next year we all that next year say it okay. it changed it changed in the last month and a half I'm fine with that. Howard. If we're going to have that energy, I'm fine with that. I'm not arguing with you that. What I would say to the Lou Dort is been in the league a lot longer. and didn't have in history until he had a history. sureure, right? So like once you start having the history, like we got to keep the same energy and that's like That's always my beef because And this is personal to me. I'm not going to sit on here and act like it's not. like you know, like People would tell you that I used to put my foot under people's ankles and roll. L I'm not immune to someone sending me one of those and I'm like, wait I'd never done that ever in my career. But I get lumped into that because, you know, like there's one narrative for us and then there's another narrative for star players. Like I had a star player who came to my team put his foot under mine and intentionally hurt me. And I rang him up on that shit in film, like one of his first days, like, yo, my man, Youre trying to tell me you ain't do that shit on purpose? I ain't it on purpose. Iin't on purpose So I took his ass to the film room, showed it to him Oh, yeah, my bad like yeah, but like you guys like the media typically doesn't keep the same energy. for some of us that they then do for the stars. and that's all I'm asking for. That's personal to me Like he got a history now in my book Yeah. I mean,, I think we're all in agreents there on that he has a history now and we're going to be looking closely on it. What I do think though, and I think there's another point and I think that we get as a media apparatus, I do think that we get So in love with the storytelling aspect of it. Like this is great. villing like this is what we're going to do. He's not a villain. He is an interesting subject for us, right And so I think that that may lead to just how we talk about things in a way that I don't think that aligns maybe with what's going or maybe it doesn't take into care into all of the parties. It's human nature This nature like in, and we're still learning about him Yeah. and he might, he might not transgress anymore and that's fine. L, you know what I mean? Like I'm not twenty two saying Yeah, but like there has been some history of that. And as far as the stars go look You understand that, bro. like These are star driven leagues with star driven narrives and it it's not fun for fans. you know, like you got to have the antagonist and stuff like that. likeike'm I'm good with that Um It's just a hard history is a hard thing for me because no one has a history rightight? Like no one came into the NBA on their first game and rung up two flagrantance and now you're like, oh, for the rest of his career is going to be history. So like it starts to evolve and happen and then once you get it, you have it and he's no different in that regard. And so we we all agree, but like he could very easily not have any more flragrance and not be sticking his foot under people's legs and not try to break somebody's face, and then you're fine Two more questions before we go to Oh yeah, I was just real quick. we also though, and by we this is not just media, I think Rajaah, I think you and other former players kind of get caught up in this too though guys get tagged especially European players still after all this time. They's still a little bit like this soft label and especially if you're built the way he's built. I think about Pau Gasal and how skinny he was when he came in and And then they're constantly having to fight this uphillll battle about like are they tough enough and this and that? And like part of the way you make your bones in the NBA and you change that reputation is If they're beating you up, beat them back And so he lost it a couple of times and he certainly overstepped. But like there's a certain aspect of that where I think there are some people who are probably privately saying like, fuck yeah, I'm glad he did that. He needs to do that. Like that's part of his growth too. Just don't go over the line and don't hurt anybody. Yeah, no, look, I've I've been one of those people. I I mean Yeah, dude, like you got to defend yourself Like I'm not If I got on here and said anything to the contrary of that, I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world because I am firmly in the camp of Once you feel like you've had enough You got to handle your business. That's just like human being shit. U There's a line that's drawn as to what's acceptable for that. And if you cross it I crossed it immmediately and forever. I live in that space I can't get out of it. Once you cross it, you live with theight I don't want to hear all he was soft and so he did it And then now like we're just going to I well, I wasn't soft and I did it. So like I't get the pass. I don't know if it's about. understand what I wasm saying? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah I think there's almost a One, it's sometimes a no win situation and two We The chattering classes, media and fans U If a guy doesn't stick up for himself and is not physical, We knock them for being soft. They stick up themselves, they get physical, they maybe cross the line and now it's like, now you're a villain and you're a terrible person. and it's like, But Rogj, that's exactly what you experience, right? Like one incident and suddenly you're tagg for the rest of your career. And so but this is what I'm saying. we because everything is oversimplified And because these and especially now between social media and twenty for seven debate shows Every day it has to be one extreme or the other I don't think on this show, the three of us are guilty of that, generally speaking. I think we're trying to live in the nuance and even as we hash this out in real time here Um We're trying to find like where where is like the fair version of this that is not extreme Um But we're living in times when everything is just teased out to the nth degree and hyperbolized, if that's even a word Um, And so I'm just like I try to push back against the extremes And I'm always try I am trying to find that middle space there. And I think in Weemby's case, we're going to go into next season with a different impression of him both positively and negatively. And the question is what does he do next Yeah. I agree. I agree. I would I'd be remissed though, like if we're doing this in real time. There is a difference between physically standing up and pushing back. and putting your feet under someone in their landing zone. That's not a tough play That's not that's not, that's not a tough play Like Um, and so There are plays that you can make where you're, you know, boom, you're bumping, you're bumping, you throw a guy to the ground. Like I'm fine with that. Like you, you know, even the one with um Jayalen Brson should have been a flgrrant becauseuse you mushed him. But like, hey You know, like if you had if you thought he was up in your ribs and he was but and he was trying to break your ribs and you got his little ass off you I'm okay. like I'm okay with that. But they do start to pile up and when there's, you know, Hansel and Gretel, there's a trail. like you got to follow that damn trail You know, And if it leads you to a place where the where where you're like, well, shit There's enough evidence like I just Well, I agree with you, Howard. I hate the world we live in where you got to be one thing or the other Some people in the league, like my time has passed, but some people in the league still can't get out of that box no matter what Right? And so all I'm saying is it's sticking up because I was one of them I don't think it's necessarily fair because of your stature as a player in the league to avoid being put in that box if there's enough evidence to put you in that box. evenven if it's just until you prove otherwise, that's all I'm saying He's getting scrutinized. I't think he I don't think anybody's giving a pass Okay, two more things I't want to get your own leak. U, one thing, um Howard do you feel vindicated that your Dar and Fox trade take from the end of the season is now receiver pitch Um, notot necessarily. They probably needed him for this run, but I mean, And noting wall or not. I don't think you trade him because of what happened in the finals. I think if you trade him, you do it because partially contract and partially because Dylan Harper just needs all the runway in the world now Yeah between Dylan Harper and Stefan Casso, like you're set Um So the day is coming. It may not be this summer, it may not be next season. But like Darren Fox is not going to be there for the next two, three years, I don't think. So that was my impulse at the time they drafted Dylan Harper That's certainly emboldened by this certainly emboldened by running into Ron Harper in the hallway right after game five. He's the first person I saw downstairs. proud Daddy feeling pretty good. likeike yeah, they lost and all that stuff, but like U Well ye, we talked a lot. we arrived here in like five years. He's like he's like It's like your lips, bro. B basically, it's like wayait do you see what he comes back as, you know, next next season. So that's awesome Anyway, I don't know if the E Fox will get traded, but like it's pretty damn clear that Dylan Harper is going to be an absolute fucking stut in this league. shhout out to Ron Harper so our thoughts on the Fox situation and the Pling Gard situation is the wholeo in San Antonio. Yeah, I mean, it was it wasn't Great. I had a lot of people asking me, obviously I wasn't in the pod, but about the Do you sit de in Fox and start, you know, U Bill in and I was on the side of no because I think you want to keep it as comfortable and as usual and as normal for them as possible in a run like that But I would agree with Howard one hundred percent H What he showed you in this playoff run as a first year player ' got to be so exciting for not only dad, but the organization that you want to do everything you can to support that arc U and him getting to the top of that trajectory as fast as possible So you know, with within within the team concept because obviously we have to keep winning. It can't just be we're for gettingting everything to get him to that point, but We certainly have to figure out how to get them to that point as quick as possible and continue to win games. And if that means And it does mean having him on the floor more and letting him play through some stuff and having him have to figure it out. because it's all on him in the in the in the, uh realm of point guardedness and taking care of the ball and getting us into offense, then you do what you have to do to make that happen U, one other thing that I want to get you go for Rin of the week The trajectory of Mike Brown Oh Now So both we all good for you. Yeah Mike Brown for you Mike Brown Who let the dogs out. Who let the dogs out? Y Oh I'm glad that Bike Brown is in a position where he can actually show his personality, the one that we me I don't know if you saw Roger, but me and Beck have seen behind the scenes for a long time. a very gregarious personality that he doesn't show very often that he's finally showing to the world That is great. What is this trajectory Howard now that he have the title? I was thinking maybe it's a little bit of a Doc Rivers arc, right? where like he's always been known as maybe a good coach, but like this validates This championship kind of validates him in NBA lore Right? I don't know if Doc Rivers had a time where Like we thought, okay, this is Doc Rivers the last job and he's out of the league. R right? L is probably the last job of his career, right? Maybe this bucks but probably this bucks team was that for him But Mike Brown was in a position when You know, when he got hired by the Nicks where it's like this is probably his last shot. This is probably the last now he goes from that to he's a champion. now he's in NBA lore What is that how do you see the Mike Brown arc right now and I' go to Rjer I think this is his fifth coaching stint because it was twice with Cleveland, LA and Sacramento. And so by the time you are like at some point, you're like the young high He was like the head coach of the go to say Ws So like fourour weeks, three weeks, three, four weeks, c doesn doesn't count the column the re book m But there's, you know, there's You only get so many shots One day you're the young up and comer that everybody's like especially if you're black put that out there. I did I did the math on this about ten years ago and Blackhead coaches, their average length of of tenure compared to white head coaches. And I think this was both first timers and veterans, but especially first timers. much shorter U And you do usually get fewer shots. Mike Brown. You get that glow of the warriors. And being part of those championship teams and being part of that staff and being in Steh's orbit. and then you go to Sacramento and did it And he brought the kings Back to respectability You know, dee Fx the bonus, all these guys have something to do that but Mike Brown had a hell lot to do with it that he was fired for being coach of the year. So there's your Doc Rivers comp Doc Rivers, his first head coaching job, he goes straight from the broadcast booth to the Orlando Magic in nineteen ninety nine. He beats Phil Jackson for coach of the yearar in the ninety nine two thousand season The Lakers won sixty seven games, the magic finished, I think, either at five hundred or just below and Dockwin's coach the year. Why? Because it was a roster full of guys nobody had, I mean, not that they' ever heard of it. It was like, you know, Chucky Atkins and like, I don't know, a Bow outlaw or something. Like it was I think a young Ben Wallace pre pre awesomeess Ben Wallace. What's that as opp both of my guys, you ned both of my guys. So, but it was Doc Rivers coached his ass off a team that was expected to do absolutely nothing and they get to like five hundred, anyone's coach of the year they didn't really progress enough after that, right? And then, you know, they get Tamac and McGrant Hill and they can't get stay healthy and whatever. And then eventually Doc lands in Boston People often forget about the Boston thing And Ubntu and the championship and all that stuff Is that prior to them getting Chva Garnet and Ryen lot everyverybody wanted they all wanted to trade Paul Pierce and Fire Dock Rivers. There were like chant they were like fire Dock chants the prior season And a couple months later, they get these guys and the next year they're winning a championship And so Mike Brown, that's kind of similar in that, you know, fired multiple times. People think it's it may be over for him. He's when you're fired by the Sacramento Kings, the most dysfunional franchise in the NBA And it's it's already your fourth chance. like that might be it for you. So yeah. And then on top of that He was like their sixth choice at best. Remember they asked permission to talk to Jason Kid, rejected. They wanted to get Quin Snyder, rejected. They wanted to get Billy Donovan, rejected. They had five head coaches that they asked for permission to talk to who were under contract refused on all of them and then they land on Mike Brown and it looks like a consolation prize in some ways and it's kind of it feels disrespectful, but like that's that's how it played out. And here he is like this is an incredible moment of indication for Mike Brown. By the way, can I just read a quick quick blurb from our colleague, Isaac Levy Rubinette in our off seons survey this morning? I think we can. If the past two seasons have taught us anything, it's all caps. get the hell out of Sacramento Tyrees Halbton was traded the pacers in twenty two and he made the finals in twenty twenty five. Dereren Fox was traded in twenty twenty five and turned around to make the finals in twenty twenty six, even if he did stick up the joint once he got there. Mike Brown was fired by the kings in twenty twenty four and won a championship with the next eighteen months later All of which is to say, I desperately want to see Demonas a bonus find his way to the Charlotte Hornets and eventually the twenty twenty eight NBA finals. shhout out to our guy Isaac. That's a fantastic blurb And boy, Sacramento, I feel so bad for Kings' fans Anyways, there's a lot of too to California. they chose that lot. Roga, what are your thoughts on Mike Brown No, I mean, I mean, Howard laid out the arrc I don I don't like well done. I would just just I Really, really happy for a dude who like Those jobs aren't easy, man. Like It doesn't matter who you are. That's tough. And you can be an excellent chef You can even have excellent ingredients And you try to make a dish and those ingredients just don't work well together Right? And that doesn't mean that you're not a great chef It just means like this is the best I could do with what I'm giving here Right? And so It's not always on these guys who are running these teams as to why it doesn't work. Sure, they bear responsibility and someone's got to go, it's usually easier to get rid of a coach, but I'm happy for all of them that are good dudes like because some of them I'm sure aren't. I don't know many of them, but I do know Mike Brown and he's a good dud And I do remember going to Cleveland. I've told this story before being asked to kind of consult on where that team was with him And I felt bad for him when I walked in there and saw what he was dealing with N not a talent on the roster standpoint, but like I was they it was just whatever point in the season this was He was not being heard at all or listened to and it was a shame. and You know, that happens but no w was him or anything like that. But to be standing here like as an NBA champion. You know, this many years later, knowing him and knowing what he's gone through, like I'm I'm just super happy for him man. And that's I think it's a really cool story One of the all time great people in NBA history. Like as terms of persons and people and people that that are just around the game, he was all one of the hardest working people in the game as well. and sometimes, you know, that was used against him.'m going to be out He worked too hard, you know, like he' and I'm really happy to see Um him get his flowers. He earned that terrasquad chain. He earned it Not for nothing Mike Brown only had one acceptable outcome They fired Tom Theibidau for losing in conference finals there and after going to the conference finals, him being the one to get them to the conference finals for the first time in twenty five years. W you when you were the guy who replaced the guy who actually brought the team back to respectability and got them further than anybody had in twenty five years. The bar is as high as it can possibly be. Mike Brown had only one outcome that was going to be acceptable probably to the owner who had already said championship or bust And to the maybe to the fans and certainly to anybody who thought the TIbs got a raw deal, like there was only one outcome that Mike Brown could succeed or could be considered a success and he got it Yeah whoo was a man who was a dude that ever placed Jimmy Johnson at the you who won the title? Was it was it Erkson, one of those guys? U Dennis Ererson came in. Yeah. he did And one like w a national tab. but he also was Jimby Johson. so he would be He did his a thing No. he did his thing. I think Was it Al wasas it Coker? Was it Larry Coker one one two? No That was thousand anyway. were that was later.. Let's get to Rowan of the week Um, Theres only could be one ruin of the week for us. It's our extended family It's been motherfuckking Stiller, man. It's been motherfuckking stiller for pulling out. onene of the greatest moments of his sports life. The greatest moment of his sports life, as he said on the podcast Um, And then blessing us with hisis presence, man Um, I want to tell the story. I need to go watch. I need to go watchh that pod I need to go to go watch. Yes you do.bsolutely. Okay. att the very least the section of his interview. it was great The last fifteen minutes for sure. I want to tell the story of how it came together on the pod because Rob was hearing it for the first time and I think that wouldd be really cool too Um just tell the listenership And just, you know, say how like, you know, how Ben has just become like a like a bit of family to ruin so over the last two years it's weird. He's you know, it' it's crazy. but for the for the for the pod listeners We were trying to get Ben U I'm gonna to start off first of all. I'm going start off with like my version of the story and then go to Howard because Howard has all of the intricacies of what happened on the ground Rosin know this, we were trying to get been like before finals and he was down. We were going we had a time locked in But he had scheduling issues U because he's like one of the fucking hardest working people on the planet. Dude has like eighty seven jobs So he couldn't make it happen. So we're trying to find with his people just trying to find times to get him on Meanwhile, he's transversing the globe being Howard are transversseing the globe U back and forth from Stockholm. he's going back and forth between the world and game in these games in San Antio and New York. we're trying to find a time thenen by game five, it's like, let's just try to figure out a time after the finals maybe. and then like everybody just like so everybody went dark And we' just like watching the finals like everybody else And then U, then Beck seesason in San Antonio and then I'm going to let Beck take it from here on how everything went down. from the ground in San Antonio Everybody knows by now is obviously that Stiller was at all the games because he would be anyway, but he was also documenting it. He's talked a little bit about this in very brief form about what he's doing with a documentary So I'd already run into him at a couple practices in New York. and so we had chit chat along the way, but I wasn't bring up the podcast thing because Logan was working on that through like official channels. after game five And I'm running around all the back areas, trying to find people, whatever I got Patrick Ewing. I got Allan Houston. I'm just like looking for people to get quotes and, you know, put it all in perspective, all that stuff. And there's there's Ben. So he's talking to Sean Powell from the great Seaan Powell from NBA dot com longtime NBA writer and And I'm waiting for Sean to kind of wind down. And so I go up to Ben, Hey, man, congrats. How you feeling? whatever So we chat for a little bit. I get some official quotes from him that I can use in my story and all that stuff. U In the meantime, like people keep coming over one of their photos. I took two or three different photos of cameras with them with Ben because I'm standing there. like, what the hell I might as well. I'm not on deadline yet. I've got an hour and a half before we have to pod Um And I introduced them to talk told And and I told the words real quick. I told the words Take your time Howard like, you', take your time. We'll be here when you need it because I know how it is in a reporting trip. It was also funny because I was thinking about Roger like I love Roger. I wish she was here for this moment, but there ain't no way in hell. Roger's waiting to wound after a finals game And I'm telling Howard to take his time to go report agreement O agreement with each other and with our beloved producers was we would do that we wouldd start ninety minutes after so that we don't keep everyone up all night, even though I had to step up all night. So I am, I'm in a frenzy for ninety minutes just running around trying to find people. I stood in a stupid line to get into N next locker room and there was nothing to see there once we got in and That's a story for another time. But I finally I get Ben Yeah, at one point, Tom Kreene walks up. I know Tom a little bit from some summer League stuff we've done together. And so next thing Im introducing Tom Kreen to Ben Stiller as if these two wouldn't like would need an introduction. Like these are both very recognizable people, but I'm just in a weird space at this point So I'm about to leaveid they know Did they know each other though? Like No, no, Tom was like Tom had walked up and went o Oh, hey, and he goes, I want to meet Ben. And so I was like, oh, hey, Ben, Ben, Ben Stiller, Tom Creen. like like so so f It was great. It was just this impromptu very in retrospect, awkward silly stupid thing I did. but But it was fun. So so then I took photo of Tom Cree and his daughters with Ben I So I go, Bnd, listen, I gotta run But by the way potting a little bit down the hall here. They got us this little room like behind the chapel room. There's like some little, you know, meditation room or something that they got me set up. and I'm going to go do a podcast. You want to jump in, feel free. He's like, Oh, yeah, okay, cool. Yeah, let's see what happenens. I had no thoughts whatsoever, Raja that this was going to happen because Everybody in their brother wants to talk to him, take photos with him, interview him. He's doing his documentary He's, you know, probably going to some after party with Chalamet and Spike and Tracy Morgan or something. The last thing I thought was got time for our little old podcaster. So I find my way to that room I set up my people would laugh at the setup. My laptop was literally perched on like one of those like branded Coke refrigerators like that you see in like the gyms or offices or whatever. I just put it on there because I couldn't have anything else that was high enough. It's a total like makeshift set upp We start potting at about What was it? L after midnight? It was like twelve fifteen or something. You're sleep, Roser. You're fucking not. you're asleep It's. It would have been one fifteen, your time because Texas is an h behind. So it's very late We're potting for a good thirty, forty minutes And suddenly my phone rings and I look down and it's Ben And so I'm like, a guy's hang on a se. I pull away I' like, Hey, where are he's, Hey, I'm going gonna come down. I'm like, what? really? Okay. This he's like, whereere are you? I'm like, I'm trying to describe it And also a quick thing that San Antonio and you've all played it you've played in San Antonio. We've covered a lot of gam in San Antonio. They have all these fucking tunnels. It's alls of the arena. You can't like so I'm telling Beck, Beck is like I got a pod, but you can come in here. I'm like Beck, get your ass out and go find him. I say, go find you go fucking find him. Go fuck find him It's Logan and Cliffer are yelling at me like I don't, you know they're worried these's going to like get lost or we're not going to get him. So I do pop out for a minute. I have these guys who have like set up all their equipment outside. I'm like, guys, can you watch the room for? I got my stuff in there or whatever. Like I got to go find and I'm running around and I can't I couldn't quite find him. so then I call him, but he's in the middle of something. so the conversation was garbled and he's talking to cross talkalk all this. I'm like, a, I gott to get back, but I know he's coming. He said he's coming. I told him the room that is. I said, just look for this room He finally, I think, followed by the text said Somebody from the NBA knows where it is, they're going to bring him So I sit back down, I calm these motherfuckers down because they're all hyper. They're like. We're fine guys. I'd likeck to get the fuck up again. I said like He's getting escorted. I said Bck. It's like, dude, we're good. relax. relax. There's a lot of raw footage cutsare of us just like, you know, like yelling at each other, but not in a bad way U It was a lot of just frenzy and it was late and we were punchy But yes, so then I sat back down. we continued potting and then a little while later Ben comes through the door. so is he is absolutely the real one of the week. That's probably Oh my God. I' been like you got to watch it. We're gonna to send you the link and then he fucking is like E's drunk. we did it we did all the shit bite, like he was like He's like, L get do it. do it. And we're like like somebody said that it looked like a fucking student access show that Beckon the lighting was terrible. The lighting was terrible. Apologies to Victoria home. And then was we werere gonna to put it up on the screen. We got this phenomenal picture of Howard and Bech doing Blue Steel at the end. It was fucking incredible. It was supposed to be a thumbnail, but the lighting was terrible. But yeah, it was great. We did it, man. So Bin Stiller. nice. Yeah I mean our guy our dude. I'm glad you guys I'm glad you guys got to experience that. That's pretty cool. That's on that night for him like that energy had to be out of control Sorry you missed. Roger. I know sorry Yeah,'s all right. I'm go and watch it. I'll just kind of just to put myself yearsater. That's Yeah I was just trying to kinda insert myself into that That's cool. That's cool. You're going to make her next time. He's got to come back on go at some point. You know what I mean? And we're all gonna to be there. We still are oweding in person time in New York, right? We're You're supposed to go fuckking to a Nick game with them. but we're supposed toater in New York at some point.? Yeah, we got to Nate that All right, man. B motherfucking stilliller Row of the week. Uh, you gott even not give a Yeah, I want to give a little shout out Row one because my absolutely. My young blood Tie. I was with him at the NBPA top one hundred camp in Rock Hill and Hye was was a guest workout. They got to watch Kyri work out with Pil handy. Pil was I didn'ten Phil in while was super cool watching those dudes come from min and like As it was, like, you know, T' my my middle boy Um He love really He loves Kyri, Kyrie on Kyairrie's signature shoe drop, the first night of his signature shoe in Cleveland He found Thai and gave Ti his shoe. U and Ti's been hooked ever since, right? Like Kyria is his dude. So Anyway He comes in, he works out, I'm kind of in and out and Ty comes up to me afterwards And it's like like he took a picture with Kai while Kyi was walking out and stuff and he said, thatad I was hanging out over here and Kye had come in the gym behind me. I didn't know it. It was like, and somebody kind of grabbed me by my shoulder. and said Yo, what's up, Ty He was like, Dad. he knew my name. He knew my name. He was like, So anyway, I'm giving Kyrio oneed a week because Ty Bell will be riding high off of that exchange For who knows how long Yeah man I just I don't know remember his name is like like that's crazy. That's kind of wild. So like real one for that I don't know what T is going to be. I know he's great and I know that he is just Like I watch his highlights all the time and he's a phenomenal player But what a what a treat to like have you as his pops bro and like just the way that he has been able to like Like he sat in on the Steph Curry Ruins interview, right? Like he's been studying these guys and like have a And he has like this Like I some access with these guys. He has some access, right? But he like Beg, you weren't here at the time, but I swear when Steph came on this pod Dude had a razor focus like I'm learning everything that I can from him, but also I'm learning everything I can to kick his ass one day or kick or get to this point. And I don't know what Tie's going to be, but he has a lot of lessons right now can't wait to see what he is sameame with Dia man. You know I'm fans of your kids O I appreciate. fans with him.. I appreciate you bragging on him. I appreciate Yeah. But but yeah yeah the shine the shine for this segment for me, the one B to obviously Ben Stiller. That was pretty doough. You you made a kid's month probably with that. So I thought that was real Let's talk. Okaykay, you know, you're always last, Howard because you always have the, you know, you know the way you like to take it for that role of the week. So if you have one, go right ahead. I would have I would have, of course gone Ben and I co sign that one. but City of San Antonio. is my real one of the week. And the fans of San Antonio Here's why. And so first time I've been there for the finals since obviously their last finals, twelve years ago, twenty fourteen. And it's not that I'd forgotten this, but it's a good reminder when you land in a final city, especially one that you've been to before, every final city E every city, every fan base has a little bit of a different vibe One of the cool things about the spurs is it's partially because the way this downtown is built and you got the riverwalks. you got there's an attract down theres there's a reason for people to go downtown, right? When you're in San Antonio, you feel the fucking finals. L you feel it, you feel the passion of like the fans and how everybody's all in because every single place has signs up. They've got like tall buildings where the lighting is the lights in the rooms at night are spelling out G spurs go flags are everywhere on cars and in, you know shop windows and whatever. and waitresses and waiters are all wearing spurs gear. And it dude, it is everywhere. There are murals on the likeespe especially as you're driving out to the outskirts, there are murals of like Duncan and Pop and Tony and Manu. There's Weemby alien murals. place frickin lives for this team And I don't mean this as a strray at Oklahoma, but like I didn't feel it in Oklahoma because Oklahoma's downtown there's nobody el the same way. I didn't want to say that because's I didn't want to say it fully on Oklahoma City, but I do feel you because I want to say this. Oklahoma City'sand base is incredible, especially, you know you're at the I was fucking it was mind blowing just like in the building. Almost literally mind blowing because I think my head's going to explode it' so damn loud in that building. They're building that perimeter around their down. They're still doing that in a way that San Antonio's already historically had it. That But it's not a slight's You guys are building towards that apparatus around with the new arena and also just the new restaurants around And the thing is in the case of like Oklahoma a couple other cities like this where it's like at the time of the game and hours before and after the game and in the in the periphery of the arena, you feel it, but not extend it out. And in San Antonio, it's like I could not go anywhere And I went I didn't stay downtown the whole time either. like my old buddy Mike Monroe, shout out to the great Mike Monroe legendary former NBA writer Still living in San Antonio, he took me to like his favorite Mexican joint for breakfast that was more like toward his neighborhood. likeike just like a little ho in the wall place. the food was out of this world. It was absolutely awesome But u, but even like it wasn't so it wasn't just like I was downtown. It was it was no matter where I went in town Everybody's in spurs. Everybody's talking about the sppurs. And I live in New York where stuff just gets swallowed up, right? Like I was here for the finals Obviously obviously New Yorker very passionate about the Kicks before during and after. There's no question about that. But on a given day, when someone says, well what's it like in New York during the finals? I'm like, if you're not near the Garden or midtown or certain other spots, you might not know what's going on because it's New York and New York just swallows up everything there's so much going on here. LA because it's so spread out. Yeah, you see the laker flags on cars and stuff like that San Antonio is just kind of unique in the way it's built, but also obviously the passion of that fan base Um Anyway, it was really enjoyable and really cool. So shout out to Spurs fans They're going to have a lot of better days ahead of them, I believe. I mean, they've got good days right now, but they're probably that' going to be back Yeah, they're good. That's an awesome real ones though. And I would just add to that Howard that like I've never been there for a finals, but I've been there for some Western conference finals and and even second round of playoffs and they get it cracking. like it feels like that playoffs in general. I'm sure it was amplified even more, but that's one of those cities that you feel them in the playoffs They leave in hotels walking around like ste it They get it cracking in general. I randomly was on a f a New Year's Eve in San Antonio. because the Wriors just happen to be in San Antonio or New Year's Eve And when I tell you and I was I was at that Weston on the river walk, it was cracking. It was cracking So sh out San Antonio because they get it cracking You don knowt when you go at random city and you're not ready you're not expecting to have as much fun as you did You know that I'm talking about where you're just like no no I don't even San Antonio. You know you know Okay I' been another edition of Rillins.. We are back next Thursday Um, and then we are going to be back, u down around for free agency. So that's why we gave you a little extra time Gamn there an hour and a half. That's why Rog' is up for gamn there an hour and a half. We will see you guys next week.. Summer schedule, Daw. We got drop off I'm the hell right now. All this shit. Must be twenty one years an older in president in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen older and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling probleblem call one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred, my reset. Call one eight eight eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven or visit ccpG d. org back slash chat in Connecticut or visit MDgamblinghelp dot orga Maryland. Hope is here