Final Thoughts and Agent Talk

Hello and welcome to Grouphat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle, man Oh boy. a lot of things have happened since the last time we recorded a podcast U Jalen Brown is in Philadelphia Walker Kessler apparently is worth just as much as Janesentadacupo There's like seven other things we need to get to. I don't know if we'll have enough time. How long is this pod going to be, Rob? I think we could go at least over the ninety minute markark. You know, like make a full movie out of this thing. Why not? Isnt this what we want? I mean, we say we want this every off season. We're getting exactly what we want. I know our heads are spinning, but my God. Oh I don't know. I feel like this is compomarably This has to be the craziest one in recent memory, right? I mean, like we're getting big pieces, we're getting fringe pieces, we're getting getting a little bit of everything I think the best comp would have been twenty nineteen which is when a lot of the things that we're seeing now were first set where it's Kai going to the Clippers. We have the Lakers getting Anthony Davis, you have The Nets getting Kyire and Kevin Durant. that one was huge. but that one was like pretty typical of the paradigm of the moment where it's like, oh, teams are kind of gutting their cap space and going after these big fishes where they're trading everything in order to get them That like made a certain sense. This to me feels like the summer of Dumb is kind of how I've been perceiving this Okay whereere it's like a lot of big players go into certain places Every time you're like That's a weird circumstance or like Why is this team doing that? And it's just like, what is this team after the fact? It doesn't line up in the way that you're used to seeing. Well, it doesn't line up yet in some of those cases. because For example, I had a kind of like what is going on here reaction to Dean Wade signing with the Sixers. And now I'm like, I love Dean Wade with the Sixers. This actually makes total sense for what they need. So maybe there are, you know, shoes left to drop. mayaybe there are other kind of pieces and dominoes left to fall That said, I think this Jalen Brown trade in particular is just going to break a lot of people's brains in the same way that once Luca got traded to the Lakers, we could never roll our eyes at a Laker Photoshop ever again Can you even imagine the dumb things that people are funneling through the trade machine as we speak? Because if Jayen Brown can be had for Paul George and two first round picks That's basically two seconds. Forget the. We will account for the seconds, but like if that's all it takes, anything is possible So good, so good so good New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to sixty percent off brands like Rag and Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack Im Sanning. I'm Madison Skinner, I'mv Yov.'m Coria More. want to train like a Red Bowl athlete. Tell us your fitness goals this summer to enter the Red Bull Athlete challenge. You'll get to try each of our workouts for a chance to win an ultimate Red Bull experience. They you have what it takes I think that's a good place to start here because I had to start wondering whether or not this was worse than the Lua Dantits trade And I don't think there's any topping that. if only because the shock of it was so profound last year when Luy got traded to the Lakers. There was no buildup. There was no prelude to that happening. It just happened and you're just left reckoning like where the world is, like whether or not you live in actual reality that you're used to thinking that you were. Whereas like this one, we knew this was going to happen. I think we'd heard drierbelles coming out where it's like, He's kind of available and he's kind of available for not as much as you think. There really isn't much of a market for him. But I still thought it would be something like pretty significant, a ton of picks or at least like an intriguing young guy going back to the Celtics. This was just basically a dump because you think about Paul George, like how many picks do you think would to take a team just to take on Paul George? att least one really good first, maybe beyond that. Yeah. They didn't really get much in addition to that. So they just basically dumped Jayalen Brown Which is why he was six for MP last year. It does it does remind me a little bit of the Luke, the parameters of what caused it to happen there are some Luca vibes scaled down where you have At the time there was there were some vocal really crusty analytics, you know, in the dark corners of the analytics hoops internet who were quietly raising their finger and being like, actually In the end game of a title conversation, Lua Dantich is actually not as good as you guys think he is because and their arguments were all driven by like you're going so far in this kind of helio mindset like heavy assist percentage, everything and then the defensive stuff and you had similar kind of arguments for Jalen, but I feel like those were a lot more on main street and a lot more widely adopted In terms of like the shock you talkking about it's going to break people's brains. I think we're in the aftermath of the breaking of brains and we're starting to see some people kind of crawl their way back towards coping with it in some ways. I mean, I've seen some guys come out and make arguments about why this was a good move to get off him now and we can get into some of the details of that. But in terms of just the breaking the internet Um Definitely I don't think it rises to the level of the Luca because that went on and not never stopped. And I have seen some coping kind of going on with with the Jail and stuff, but the hall really The hall's really hard to hard to reckon with. it doesn. No. Well the pittons, you know, pful? Yeah Bittons is good. Yeah. I mean, we just lost the plot as far as a lot of that stuff goes, Kyle. like I think with Luca and Jail and both like What Lua Don just is going to be good enough to what get you to the NBA finals or in the case of Jayen Brown, We're doing all this hand wringing and all this hemming and hawing about his plus minus and his on off when won a title as one of the most critical pieces of that team If you want to have the conversation about whether he should be the definitive star driving his own offense Let's have the conversation That's not even where he got got traded. Like he's going to be sharing responsibility with Tyres Maxie and Joell and Bead and VJ Edcombe like on the come up as well I would imagine a lot of the scenarios that were even possible for Jalen Brown would be ones where there are also good secondary stars or guys like co stars you could kind of share responsibility with He's clearly qualified to do that because we've fucking seen it. So like what are we talking about with a two way wing Who's in the prime of his career, Wh is this good Yeah, there are caveats. There are quirks. There are elements of him both as a player and a personality that are a little tricky to make fit within your locker room or just like on the court at a lineup. Those are great problems to have when Jalen Brown is the guy involved. I perversely love these sorts of things happening too, because it just feels like we spend so much of our lives if you're a fid. A lot of perverse love in your life That's true but this one in particular is, I guess more of the S and M variety because we spend so much time like trying to nail down that we think we know everything about what's happening. We come to this agreement that like this is the structure. Everything within this box has to happen in a certain way. but I'm like That's not the case. This is a lot of just like people making human decisions that sometimes zag against the established structure. It reminds me of the thing someone has told me that like the NBA is basically just a small village. and it's kind of like all industries. but each individual franchise is its own house, It's its own home And the one thing I think everyone can agree is that like everyone's family is fucked up in ways that don't typically like align with how things should happen. We all have these sets of rules, but like your family does something that's weird in a certain way that your other one is. And like I look at what the Celtics did and it just seems like there was enough stuff that just got so weird that they just had to move on from it whether it was Jayalen Brown's hardheed personality wearing on them was the fact that they tried to trade him twenty times basically and then this time in a very public way for Janis and Tadag Gpa, who by the way, like bucks probably feeling pretty good about what they got in comparison to what Jalen Brown is apparently worth. The fact that like new ownership is in charge here and apparently there's a lot of private equity money at stake there that's perhaps driving perhaps some of these decisions. How much is Brad Stevens even involved here? How good is Brad Stehvens even? You know? There's just so much here that's just clouding what you would think Brown's value was, but in actuality, maybe it came down to this other stuff that isn't what we typically bas podcast segments about All of these admittedly perverse curiosities you bring up feel totally reasonable to me in this moment because this is just, I mean, let's just say it like an abject failure of management if this is the return for Jalen Brown, compleomplete and utter failure. And I say that because Part of your job as a general manager or if you're running basketball operations for a team is understanding the people involved that you're working with. You have to understand that you can't float Jayen Brown's name in a Jan' conversation one more time or there are going to be catastrophic consequences where you have to trade him And then you have to know that if you do have to trade him, the market has more to bear than this or also the first part can't happen. or if the first part does happen, you have to follow through on the honest trade in the first place. And so Starting the Janest conversation Stopping short because like you won't trade Ugo Gonzalez or Baylor Shireman or potentially one extra pick or whatever protected kind of inexcusable given the way things have turned out and then getting this potential return, which I will add the smallest acerisk just to say Clearly, the appeal of getting these two picks is to flip them into something else that will help the Celtics down the line, whether that's this season or in the future. So there is like a bit of an incomplete picture here as far as what the actual return will be But this intermediate stage is not good enough I know I'm the historical parallel guys. so I'm going to go ahead and just do this again because one came to mind that so if we go back, there's some really interesting parallels with this Go back to nineteen ninety four We're coming out of the well, we're coming out of the ninety two ninety three season. Michael Jordan decides he's not going to play you know, so Scottty Pippen gets handed the reins randomly for this one season and has a season where he's in MVP contention has a great, you know plays really, really well takes them into the playoffs. U And then in that spring in nineteen ninety four coming out of that season, the bulls talk about trading him to the Sonics interestingly enough, which I was thinking, I was like, this is kind of similar. It was like Tatum was out for different reasons Brown gets a taste of what it's like to be the main guy and still both of these teams in those circumstances, you know, like thirty years apart decide that they the bulls didn't end up pulling the trigger obviously because Jordan wanted Pippin to be there. But I just thought that was interesting. How'd that end up for the bulls by way. Well I was just Pippin's a way better player than Jalen Brown could ever dream being but for a lot of different reasons. But I just think It's interesting just two really kind of complicated personalities that the bulls decided to kind of weather the storm and just ride it out and figure it out. But the Celtics. I think if you think about the upward arc of where Brown's career is headed and I think it's tricky to you were talking about him fitting into a title team. I think I don't know that the status quo coming into last season is the same as it is now because the toothpast is out in a lot of different ways. A, you know, you've got the weird locker room stuff going on. It's just hard to go back from. It's Jayen justifiably has as extension coming up is another part of this that maybe they didn't want to sign up for that and this is kind of a pivot for their title window I think one title window in their team as it was has closed and they're like, we have to open another one to keep this going because if we resign him for that amount of money for the role that he thinks that he's supposed to play There's the off court stuff that's weird with him. I think ultimately they just figured like we just got to get off of this and I understand it on that level, it's just the return. like again, we're circling back to the return, the return, the return. That's the part that doesn't that doesn't work out work for me. Well The big thing that teams of the past and even teams in recent years haven't had to deal with is just the second apron being a major impediment to team building, but also the kind of boogeyman that will allow teams to do things like this and blame it on the finances. It's like, o, it's not actually because we don't like Jail and. it's actually because we need to get off of this despite the fact that Paul George basically makes as much for one fewer year. So I don't know if you're really gaining much in the long term there, but it just feels like this is an opportunity to say something like that. I'll go back to the private equity thing. like if you haven't yet watched it the June Lee video kind of diagramming how this all ended happening where according to his sources, like private equity had more money in the Celtics when they announced the sale Or at least that they intended to buy them. And then they went back and drove that down in order to satisfy the NBA requirements in order for private equity not to be the dominant owner there. That's how Chisholm ended up happening. I think that's interesting context to all of this because it does feel like that or at the very least it's that sort of thinking where we're getting distressed assets. A lot of this is happening in Portland. We'll talk about the John Morand thing a little bit later It does feel more like because like O than what Rob outlined that there is something else coming down the road that they just wanted assets that they could spin forward doesn't make a lick of sense. And even then, why wouldn't you do those in concert? Why wouldn't you wait until later in the summer? Like why does Jayalen Brown have to be on the Sers right now? That part of it, I just like I can't reconcile. It doesn't really track. And look I fully understand and I'm of a believer in the idea that there are some bridges that once you cross them, there is no going back. that it would have like real devastating effects in a locker room or to a team and the momentum and the morale of that team. to keep a certain guy around once you've In this case, I jerked him around in the trade market enough times I don't really get the sense that that was like absolutely one hundred percent the case right this second. Like I think they needed to trade Jalen Brown. They had crossed that particular threshold But the timing is negotiable. And frankly, we're not even close to the start of the season. I know that it's a little easier to grease the wheels in transactions like this when teams do have a little more space to work with or you could find like a third party or an intermediary That's not what ended up happening. Paul George's contract was not going anywhere No other team was going to trade for it. So It was sitting there. This offer I would think was going to be there for them every step of the way What exactly was the rush? And that's the crazy thing about Luca compom two because clearly the Celtics canvassed every single possible opportunity and they decided this was the best we were going to get why they just decided to put up a hard deadline. I don't know. Maybe a Treay Murphy is coming down the road here. Maybe LeBron just decides, hey, actually I love Boston. just send me there so I can play with the guts of this former contender. I don't know, but it just like it just doesn't all line up. And speaking of not really lining up, I do find the fit with Philly to be really interesting, Kyle. L It's so funny. Part of me you almost wonder if there's a little bit of spite. kind of greasing the wheels here where Jayalen Brown is out there being like, I kind of want my own team. likeike I had the most fun when the ball was in my hands and I could do everything. He goes to a team where like Probably third in the pecking order like Tyrires Maxi already has declared like he's one of the best young scores in the league. Joanbe is just one of the most giant like obstacles to any sort of else going on in a franchise And then on top of that, you have VJ Edgecom who Rob wanted to trade for Jayalen Brown and the other pod. And we're like, no, you can't do that did I destroyed the phone if let' forget. Yeah. I will say Justin, you said who could possibly have seen such a deal coming? I mean, one humble podcaster did flow Jal and Brown to the sixers. Apparely of people brought that up. Yeah. Rob called it. He did Yeah, I just the fit with Brown on the sixers. I mean, you take the talent, sure. like you didn't pay much for it, But it does feel a little uneasy. It's not like the easiest thing to work in a guy who's so like dominant and like clear clear about how he wants to play versus a team. that's already kind of like hit a bit of a run here with their current context Um Yeah, I mean, you see Jaylen like This past year he did he did show some signs he played more ball screen this past year than he had played. I was looking at it from season to season. twenty two point four percent of his possessions. his previous high was seventeen point five. So the ball was in his hands a lot H assist numbers went up. I've been one that like I don't really give a shit about like raw assist total like stuff like that assist numbers. I'm like, if the ball's in your hands all the time and you like get off the ball sometimes, like woo hoo, do you want some credit for? I've always thought that that was like the equivalent of like praying loudly in the street. Look, how spiritual I am. I'm just I was like, you don't get credit for that. Like you need to sort of You need to like assimilate and flow into an offense in a way that elevates everyone instead of just being like, Aren't you aren't you thankful that I just threw you the ball when I decided I couldn't score like that kind of stuff. That's what we're talking about. ultimately. I was making the point up before the show that like could make a very cynical argument that the Sixers just added like the worst wing version of the way that Ibed plays like at his worst moments terms of like I'm just saying that like the if you look at the the side by side As sixer fans throughout the year last year, there was these moments where there was this duality of like this very fun kinetic moving run and gun and fast team and then it'd be like and dump it to Joeell. And's like it just kind of it's just like and I kind of feel like Rob, I want to hear your reaction to tell me how I'm wrong on this because that's how Jayen is. If you talk if you talk about like Justin was saying that he's coming in like he's the fourth option, Jalen does not think he's the fourth opt. No no no I re and VJ. No fucking way. He probably is going to have to be disabused of that. I just think I'm curious just to hear explain your face reaction to that. I mean, I would say Explain your face. Explain your face I me. That's easier said than done. but As far as like Jalen's role in a buzzing team friendly offense, like He just did that. The Celtics had a buzzing team friendly offense, including when he was out there as the driving force of it. And I say that in part literally the driving force of it. who he is as a downhill player I think is really vital for a lot of different systems and could be vital for the sixixs too. They're have to figure out how they want to play, who they are, what the, you know, what the priority is in terms of who is handling the ball and scoring, of course The one thing about Jalen Brown, I definitely want to acknowledge is to me what hold on th Yeah. you're you're saying you're saying that he fit he was driving it. That's the whole point is that he is going to want to drive it and he is not going. I don't think he's going to feed into the those three guys are not like get off the ball easily guys. Tyree is traditionally score not when he came to the league. He was a score man. not came into the league anymore. I'm just litting here and about it going together. Yes, sorry. I think look, I think the hope that this can work A lot of it comes down to the fact that Tyus Maxi is one of the most elastic games of basically any guard in the league. He's such a good shooter. He's so good attacking off the ball and on the ball. You can kind of move him around and make him work And he seems like he's amenable to doing that to a degree. Now how does that amenability make sense with how good he already is and the trajectory he was on last season, being an O NBA player driving his own team. We'll have to see. There's a lot of like ego and momentum and individual development here that's sort of coalescing all at the same time. It's going be a little clunky. It's going to be a little bit awkward I just think Jalen's name gets dragged through the mud a little bit offensively when I don't think he's a great playmaker. I think what separates him from the truly elite class, like what's keeping him out of the top ten is there's not like a really strong case that he makes other players a lot better. that he can take on a certain amount of scoring load to make their lives easier for sure. But he's not passing guys open. He's not interacting with people in the pick and roll in like a really straightforward way that unlocks their game. He's a great individual skilled scorer and a good physical defender. And those two things at his position at the volume in which he operates are really important. They're just not as important as what you're going to get from the top five players in the league. And so I don't want to I don't want to Again, like criticize the guy for like only being the fifteenth best player in the world, potentially. likeike Jalen Brown is really good That doesn't mean the fit is going to be perfect, but I think it's enough to at least kick the tres and figure out how it could work. I think one of the good things they have going for them in Philly is like Tyres Maxi. well, they have a lot of good things going for them right now. It seems like this is a real heyday for them. But like Tyres Maxi, one of the good guys of the league and I think he is going to take the burden on himself in order to play off of Jalen and VJ is still young and still kind of developing into who he is. seems like he's at his best reaking havoc and playing off of guys off of cuts, like being opportunistic there. And so if you're allowing Jalen to drive the offense, I do think it kind of sets up naturally. The problem is going to be inbid, but I think the problem with inbid is that you almost have to structure your team as if he's a bonus that when he's available'll dump it in there and we'll just like slowly pace him back and for like the two weeks randomly in December where he's playing like an NVP again, like Oh well, but you can get through a regular season. you can stack fifty high fifty wins, maybe even sixty wins next year considering what else they do in free agency, what they do in particular to fill the void when Nbat isn't there. But like now you have Jalen and Maxi and VJ just driving a team and like There's just like so much here to to regular season proof a team that is going to struggle no matter how long and beat is going to be under contract there. And just think about that. like we're talking about the Sixers as a team that could be regular season proof. like They were having a constant existential crisis because of everything that was going on with him Ba whether he's available or not, how much do you build around him? his salary considerations and how much space and oxygen he takes up within an organization I think a lot of those Pressures are relieved just by having Jayen Brown around There are redundancies that come with it. And I think this really is the point. To me, it's less about how flexible Jalen is and more about how flexible or inflexible Joelln Beade is because that is a guy who, as we've seen so far only really knows how to play like a star. Like he only really knows how to operate getting the ball a ton If he's just facing the floor, he's just kind of standing around and he's not contributing a lot to your offense. if he's not incredibly mobile, as we've seen in some of his recent stretches in the NBA, that he's not really an impact defender either. So The Ibede question marks loom large But now the sixixers can get through a regular season knowing that they can have to two and a half stars depending on how you like you classify Edgecomb at this point on the floor at basically all times. like carrying them through the regular season, getting them through the schedule Brown isn't you know, infinitely durable, but fairly durable as stars go like we'll play, will'll show up. We'll play big minutes like Maxi does I just think those two guys plus Edgecomb together carry a lot of responsibility and You're right that it's weird to think of it bead as the bonus and maybe it's a maybe it's like not logistically possible with the way that he likes to operate, but It is probably the way that they should try to dig into this It's interesting that there's like a hoops boomerism going on across the league where it's like, but the boomers are millennials. So there's there's a little and to varying justified degrees because I know we'll get to Portland, but it everybody was like, oh well, you know, John and D, you know, everybody's using they're talking about these older millennial players. I mean, Dane's a millennial, right? I'm trying to mean I'm an old older millennial. I'm thinking of the spectrum of ages here. Ibed and it's like In some situations, those guys are justifiably at the center of plans. I mean, Steph still really good, LeBron still good. But it's just interested interesting to me to see that pattern throughout the league where it's like, we can't think about andbed as the centerpiece. of what we're doing. He's attack on. We can't think about Paul George. He's attack on. It's like That pivot is really interesting to me. observing it throughout free agency. Another quick thing about the sixixers two here that could be a point in your favor what you were trying to say is that I think it will be is that having Brown there if they can figure out a way to make it fluid for him to sort of work with them. and it is more likely that that Maxie is going to going to cater to that is that Maxie won't get run into the ground like he was this last year. So that's that's going to work in their favor too just to have another creator score there and a guy who can guard bigger kind of wing players. I guess Dean Wade starts at the four. I would think And like that's where again, that signing off If you think about these core four pieces, right? Joeln Bed, Maxine Edgecomb and now Jayen Brown, what do you want around them You need someone who can really cross match defensively and chase guys around, but also is kind of a power forward. and also can kind of like stretch the floor The stretch can be, I mean, a stretch for Dean Wade sometimes to be honest with you, but defensively he is kind of exactly what these other four guys need Until LeBron signs there tomorrow and then he's gonna to be the bench That'll be fine. Well even if they don't make any other notable moves. if this is just kind of the core of the team Part of why I'm optimistic about the Sers is Those four guys That's That's four three level scores on one team I don't know that any other team in the league has that right now. And so yeah, there's a lot of puzzling that has to happen to make it all fit, but The possibilities are pretty wild I feel pretty confident the sixixers are gonna be good next year Oddly enough I think the Celtics will be fine t the very least as a regular season team. It's odd that I look at all theames stacked up there. I'm like, this te could probably still win fifty games next year probably says something about the Jaling Brown conversation. att the very least it's a credit to some of the context that they built in the wake of getting rid of guys like Drew Holiday and whatnot. There's still Kata. I like the Mitchell Robinson signing. I think he's going to help them a lot. I wish they had just stopped there because it seemed like they just wanted a big to comp to like play against teams like the Sixs with them beed U there's still the guts of a very good team there, but I just don't understand Paul George coming here. He's thirty six years old. We talk about availability. like Nick Nurse is just like lic in his chops being like, oh, I get to play another guy for forty minutes. Well, like hopefully Paul George plays forty games next year I don't know, Rob, is there any world, I guess I'll have to ask the question in which Paul George conduit of flow and good offense and just a guy who's really a willing passer and wanting to get other guys going Is there any world in which like he fits so well there that this team still plays at a higher level than we were expecting? I think he's going to fit well. L Paul George was good, especially when he came back after his suspension last season, like was really good for the sixixers can't do all the things he used to do, but can do enough of them. And as you say, like contributes to flow, helps keep plays moving, helps like build action on action on action That's Celtics basketball.ike that's the way they want to play. And so him fitting in there, I'm really not worried about To me, it's more The injury risk you outlined on top of Jason Tatum is still a constant injury risk. Hving the off season off is great, but like We just saw him get hurt in the playoffs. Mitchell Robinson as you noted, their big offseason addition, a gigantic injury risk. anyt timee you try to play him big minutes. So like that's a lot for even a pretty deep Celtics team to weather. So there are a lot of pieces here. There's a lot of guys that I like and that we like and that make sense together They're going to be a good team it's less about, oh, the Celtics have imploded and are now going to be completely irrelevant and more, they had a chance to kind of really put a foot down in contention in the Eastern confonerence to establish themselves as probablyroably the foremost competitor to the Kicks if they if they really knocked the Jelen Brown Tade out of the park And they blew it. And so instead, they're going to be in the mix with these other teams where I mean, you can go through the East right now I think there's probably nine or ten teams that think they're going to be in the top six And it's things are going to go real sour somewhere and I just have no idea where it's going to be. Mitchell Robinson, I mean, on paper initially when they ed him, if you thought that they were just going to kind of run it back. He fits If you think about the philosophy of the way that the Celtics play D' like, okay, we're like plugging this into an amplifier because he's going to go get all of our misses. I mean, you're talking about an elite reboundnder on a team that wants to shoot volume Threes. I mean, those two together just felt like keepe her key Master kind of meeting up energies. I really felt good about that. But the Paul George part of it We're seeing him sort of pivot U I mean, I guess it's probably more of a de evolution or just a conscientious sort of pivoting for him for how that he plays. You're talking about him coming back and he he's going to he's not going to be relied on to be like a I'll say this. There's There there are a lot of shifting pieces on the board for the Celtics. Some are assumed. I think you assume and you hope that Derek White bounces back that his inefficiency last year that it was a blip more than like a trend that's going in the wrong direction. Peyton Prichard as we are being led to understand is going to be he's on the path to become Jalen Brunson apparently. Yeah. And then so you hope some of those improvements come, you know We recover and we improve. then there's also Paul George is just kind of on this path towards becoming more of a stretch for gives you some just kind of like sprinkles some self creation over because I was looking he's just not driving the ball enough anymore, granted. Some of that was like the spacing when Ibid was out there. his rim activities a lot different. I mean, like in twenty four twenty five he was driving per one hundred possessions thirteen point three, thirteen point four times for game and then this past season that went all the way down to eight point five. So a lot less driving I would even say it's not the spaceing like Paul George cannot beat a man off the dribble anymore. It's just not really what he does. he's still really good. He has a lot to offer, but it's not that Yeah, I think that was waning in his last couple years with the cllippers. and if anything, I think that's part of why they wanted to get off him sooner than later Um I just think this is shapingough to be like one of the bigger religious wars. whether or not it actually is the case that this was guided by principles and philosophy and like analytics and all this other stuff, I think it's ultimately going to trend that way because it really does hit a lot of the hot buttons that we talk about constantly. It's depth. it's just like the flow of an offense versus the raw talent of a guy like Brown Honestly, it reminds me a lot of Rudy Gay back in the Grizzlies where they traded him forean Prin the end of his career. But it does kind of like hit some of those benchmarks. The problem is that Jayen Brown is a finals MVP and one of the top fifteen players in the le Rudy Gay Rudy Gay was good R was good Rerdy was never very good. He was like a fine w oddly enough ended up in his career with the sppurs as sort of an analytics darling became more of a three and. He did the Marvin Williams and it worked out for him I did. Yes. but it does check a lot of those boxes where like I could see this getting more frothy as it happens, especially if the Celtics play well. if all of a sudden their depath allows them to pace out Mitchell Robinson and Paul George and get the best in them in the way that it will be tougher for the sixers who aren't as deep. And so I'm like almost bracing myself. like I want to put a couple flack jackets on like as we go through next season because this could get pretty intense very quickly Well, especially when you think about how Jayen Brown's going to take it, right? Like this is a slight, It's a slight to be traded It's a slight to be traded for this Everything that's been going on with the broader conversation is about, you know, this larger analytics bullshit, like all of the de merits of his game, all of the sniping If you're Jayalen Brown. Do you go into next season being like, fuck you, I'm going to show you how great I am on my terms or are you saying fuck you I'm going to be the consummate team player for the Sixers. Like there's so many different ways this could spill over and go. And similarly on the Philly side, This is such a winfall for them. Like they were never going to get a player as good as Jalen Brown for Paul George. That was not a thing that was going to happen until it literally just happened And so if you are Trus Max or JZwellan Beat or anyone on that team Are you even more accommodating of the fact that this incredibly surprising thing just happened to your team and could make it dramatically better is going to make Philly a different kind of contender as a result. the psychology of all this, I kind of can't wait to see how all these guys process what just happen And it's in you it's a you're trading it to a team that you have direct interaction with all the time. And that's a really fascinating part of this. And part of me wondered if the Celtics were were the now they tell us stuff hasn't come out yet. We don't fully know the scope of like everything that was going on, but there was a part of me that wondered like, did the Celtics just kind of hand a jump drive to the sixers and say, hey, man the Adobe creative suite is on this, but actually it's a virus, you know? like I'm just kind of like I don't know. I'm just wondering if this all nets out at that Just them choosing to do business with them is fascinating. It is. What a time I just like I can't wrap my head around this. this is really like I rarely get shaken by certain trades. I'm pretty numb to all of this because we're veterans of two decades at this point of wild trades coming out of nowhere. This one was like, whoa What is going on here? G genuinely stunning. and I think the point that Kyle makes about them being in such close physical proximity in terms of Boston and Philly, also just coming off of a seven game series against each other. They were in the play ups against each other. Just wild that this is the way it turns out and like what the level of familiarity is with all of that stuff and the contempt that it breeds. I mean, this is it really is something We have much, much more because there were thirty other deals that happened. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back, talk about that stuff. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, likeike restoring a vintage motorcycle from a fifty page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online makes sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responssees set upp required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus Friday The ocean shows you to save us all. The stories are true. The story has just begun Disney, Moana of Motanui, daughter of the chief. Let's save it well. Ready? It's Mauii. I'm me gonna eat whatever that is. His name is He Disney's Moana in Theaters Friteay, rated PG for rental guidance suggested, get tickets now. It's me, the We don't need the jingle twice. Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how prriceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars. S like Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to sixty percent off hotels in the priceeline app. Fine. No one deals more deals than Please stop Tou Peline All right, well I thought this was going to be the biggest event of probably the offseason. endnded up being number two thirty minutes into this podcast. The Lakers just decided to spend it all for Walker Kessler Didn't realize Walker Kessler was was this coveted? Yeah I guess young upside and fits exactly what they need But they sign and trade him from Utah, they get two first or for two first and two swaps then hand him a very rich deal of four years one hundred thirty million, the player option on the last year of that deal My takeaway from this Rob was that we all have bosses and it turns out that the Lakers is Luaantic as it should I guess so. I just didn't realize how desperate they were to appease him immediately, but you look at his contract, he's basically on a two plus one from here And we saw once they immediately traded for him, they go out and get Mark Williams or at least tried to And so on the one hand, I want to like see like, oh, wait, the Lakers just see something in Walker Kessler. I know he's a big rim protector. All the analytics love his ability to defend the rim and like a big target offensively. Luca loves that. And so I like want to see like maybe this new Lakers front office like see something in Kessler that we all don't But the truth is probably something closer to like they tried to do this with Mark Williams, they need a senter. Lua wants a centor, goo get a sener. I think in the game of telephone Luca wants a center resulting in you giving Walker Kessler one hundred thirty million dollars and giving up two picks and two swaps. like something has been lost in the communication chain I like Walker Kessler. We've talked about him so much on this pot over the last couple years, even when he's been hurt as this like critical piece of the jazzs future a guy that is worth investing in. abbsolutely. Walker Kessler is a good prospect He has shown almost no capacity to be a good offensive player yet. He's a really good offensive rebounder. He converts on those chances. some of the other easy stuff around the rim, but like He's not really a fluid pick and roll guy. likeike he doesn't really have those aspects to his game yet He also is a huge injury risk on top of everyone else we're talking about today, who hasn't been able to stay healthy, who hasn't been able to be consistent yet That would have all been fine if it was just like the jazz team that drafted him continuing to see what he could be. But at the point where you're giving him the huge RFA contract and giving up all of these picks to make it happen when you really don't have that much to give up to accomplish everything else you need to accomplish if you're the Lakers This just seems like a lot to me. This just seems like a really big swing on a guy who I think is going to be pretty good. but mostly pretty good defensively and offensively, I really have no idea Yeah, it's it's interesting because u Tessler has always kind of had offensive aspirations and he's shown little glimpses of it here and there, but you're right. I mean, it's never fully materialized. He hasn't He's had a really up and down time in the NBA. I mean, he was in the dog house during at times with the Jazz had to go play summer League when he didn't feel like he needed to go play summer League. those those always amuse me when that happens, but you know, he's only played over seventy games one time. I mean sixty four, fifty eight and then five last season. I guess the thinking here is defensively he's always been pretty, you know, he's promising. He could be a pretty good. I would say above average defensive center in the league. And then I guess the rest of it is, you know can kind of compress your offensive aspirations with the fact that Lua just has a track record of you throw him even the league average big. Yeah and he can turn them into something he can turn them into something efficient and useful. So I think he'll get a lot of easy offense on that. But you know a year ago, we were having these conversations about De Andre Ayton and kind of talking ourselves into like, Yeah, maybe this will work. I've just been kind of amused that Man. another lap around the track and the Deandre Aiton experience did not convert any believers. Our congregation is not growing. There are limits to what Luca can do apparently. But I think that point is why I'm so confused why they needed to overpay for a center like this because if Luca is able to draw so much out of these guys, couldn't you have like like shopped more at like the TJ Max ale? Like Daniel Gafford made the finals with Luca and he seems imminently available considering where Dallas is at. Like Is there someone on that level that they could have given up one pick for Because the follow up to this is that they signed a bunch of guys who are basically the core of this team going forward because they only have, I think, like one swap available in twenty thirty two left in order to do anything else. And so your team really is all of these guys plus Mamo and Grime Sexton, which is why they're signed to like four year deals as opposed to we've seen in the past in some of the LeBron constructions where it's like One year from Malk Munk and we'll just like, see what's up here It's just like, this is the team. And so It's one thing to go out and get Kessl where We could talk about the fit and like what that means for them this year The problem is that like this is it for the foreseeable future. And that's kind of an issue with the Kessler signing too, where If you have Walker Kessler and you have all this other stuff kind of nailed down, then you can give him to just grow and be a young player and make young player mistakes, and there's enough to cover for him As it stands, he's going to be really the only plus defender probably in their entire starting lineup. Maybe in their entire rotation, frankly, unless Jared Vand derbilt is a significant part of their plans, but It sure feels like they're about to start Sandra Mamo Kelisvilli at the four. Uh I like Mamu a lot. He had a really good season for the Raptors him is a full time four is a lot. Like that's that's again, a lot to ask of him Quentin Grimes yet another case, a wing we like more three than D certainly more like more likely to go off for twenty than he has to actually body down He's a high octanade scorer, on sweet He was quest. Jos He's he's fully outsourcing the copy for these tweets, rightight? I mean, we're was there any quest up Straight up go I mean, like he's not touching it at all. If you look at the copy the count. I'm like, he's not typing these. These are theseese are straight up like I'll tweet this for you. You write it. It's going on It's highly possible, although high octane score is kind it reminds me of the press box thing where it's just like only sports writers say that. And so like maybe they just said like, oh, good scorer and he put a little of his magic shand dust, which is usually like something that kind of makes sense. And you're like, o, that's that that's a word that people say sometimes, not really in this context. I just like that he's innovating. It's not just the agent name drops anymore. Although I am considering whenever I tweet out a link for this pod and be like Great job by Justin Berry and Kyleman getting this pod done. You know, they really, they really did it on this one. Well, I was amused just by I was joed with Rob about this about when Dean Wade signed with the Sers. the verbiage was like exactly the things that I've seen Dean Wade's agent argue with people about on Twitter about him being on defense. I was like I was like nobody's I just thought I was like it was just a dead giveaway there. I was like, that was kind of the language put in. You mentioned the high octane scoring U of Quintin Grimes or Quintin Grimes Who's the third guy on thoseough the Lakers? thirird offensive Who do you think it is? I mean it's either CQin Grimes or Cin Sexton, I think, by default, right Why Cin Sxton I don't mind it for like it's not a lot of money. It's a pretty mild investment. But as far as like, we want one more guy who actually has some juice on the ball who can spell Reeves and Luca I think that's that's a worthy roll of the dice that I really don't have a problem with Calling Sixon that the Hornets had no desire to keep around is going to be the third best score on a team that wants to be good in the West. It's just it's interesting. I didn't say it was a deal, you know? Well, especially becausecause Dub Breay went for less, I think right after that. I just it just doesn't make sense to me. Well guess you need more just only score There's only so much of those guys you could jam into one offense. like maybe someone who's a little bit more of a caretaker ball handle I would have liked in order to complimment what you're getting for Luca, but maybe the ball's going to be in their hands so much you just it doesn't matter. Yeah. I mean, I think both of those were basically Yeah, simimilar price range just for Ubreay for sure, but it also could just be a decision point about what kind of team you want to play for. Like if you're Kelly Ureay, would you rather be a part of an offense like Indianas's or would you rather wait to get the kick out from Luca. Like For some guys, that's not an appealing prospect, For some, it absolutely maxes out what they can do And so Some self awareness is involved, some taste is involved. it may have just been a matter of that as much as anything I think this is the point though. They basically built a big three on the fly in a context where we've seen the teams that are succeeding are the ones that have the depth to trudge through the regular season because the regular season is now a battlefield It similar to what we'reking about the exers before, just like way worse because they have three guys and as long as Luca or Reeves is on the court, it seems like they're going to have some legitimate juice in order to get some of those regular season wins But I think you guys are right about the defense where it's just like if Kessler first of all, if Kessler is there, you're counting a lot on him. Mamu is like a I would love him as a backup as a starting for basically to stretch. like just seems like you're asking a lot of him If Kessler isn't there Like what happens to this team defensive? Let's just say he's out for two months. couldould be like This could be the worst defense in the league I think with him, they're probably positioned to be one of the seven or eight worst defenses in the league already. Like I just think that's probably where their baseline is. So yeah, if he misses a significant time They're going to be in a really bad way. And they they're going to try to go out over these next couple of weeks and find defensive help specifically on the wing I would imagine to plug some holes in this lineup I don't know who they're really gonna find that's going significantly help them U I want to like appropriately couch all of this though, because we have all these concerns. I think you know, investing in Walker Kessler to this degree with all these resources, that's a larger team building question Everything that's going on with the defense that we've been circling very concerning stuff for who they're going to be They're still going to be one of the better teams in the West, I would think. So long as Luca is healthy, I think they're going to be one of the better teams. I just think they don't have a shot in hell of getting anywhere close to the Spurs thunder level of things. but After the Spurs in Thunder, Everyone else has these big looming questions too. likeike what do the wolves look like with Lameella Ball? What are the Denver nuggets going to look like after the moves they do or don't make or who's injured or who's not? Like The Houston Rockets are arere they ever going to get their shit together? Like all of these other teams in the West are like pretty good. And I think the Lakers even with a bad defense are going to be pretty good. Yeah. I just keep going back to this idea that maybe unknowingly Nico Harrison is going to get the last lastoua We because you can't do this Well, it just seems like you can goo ahead, just He than you Gyle for supporting me. seemeems like he is trapped in a purgatory of pretty good. Right? Like the brass ring is like right there and he's starving to get there, but he's just out of reach because this team will always be a certain level of good, but it will never be great just because of the way the contracts stacked up. I'm not saying that there was logic there that all of a sudden like Oh, he knew he was doing. notothing like that. But it just feels like they will always be considering the way the contract stacked up Considering their assets happened considering the way that Rob Polinka just goes about his business wherere like one year like is this guy the best GM in history and the next year? It's like, holy shit, this guy does not deserve a job. Let me stop you there. I don't think we're ever saying he was the best GM in history. That was not a conversation we were He certainly had some hits. He was in the right coffee shop at the right time. That is for sure I'm saying even previous to that in the right leather jacket. Yeah. they they won a title basically by him doing the big swinging dick thing and just going out and getting the best player and then backloading it with a bunch of clush guys. S. So He's one of the more successful ones in recent history at the very least. But like it's just like it's just feels like what's going to happen with this team is just going to be slowly just like just not there They're just never going to be really where they need to be to compete on the level of a Thunder or sppurs or some of these other teams we're talking Yeah, I mean, look, it's much harder to acquire Lua Donich and then over the course of several years meticulously build yourself into a championship team when you have All the pressures that you talked about, Justin, as far as like, There just like is a drive to be good as soon as humanly possible. And they've already kind of had the blip when they waited out of the gate Theoretically, they could have rolled all this capab space over into next summer or a lot of it, right? Like shorter term investments, take on expiring contracts, whatever it is get decent players in the door now to get through the season, but really play for next year It's tough to sell yourself on that though. Like I understand the want to do something quickly and I understand how that counteracts what's really in the best interest of the team J's just a real shame that Lukaonchich had a finals team around him and they decided, you know what? Like mayaybe trade him to the Lakers and see how that goes instead Just quick before we go on to some other stuff. just Again, I feel like the bucks are low key winners in this I think this is a credit Kessler going for this sort of package. Like why you do the givee all you got style, just just give me everything that is attractive as an asscess package. And like we could kind of quibble over whether or not the buffet line of like recent draft picks and future draft picks for the heat will ever reap something like this. But basically just from the Rudy Goubert deal with the jazz They end up getting six first round picks two swaps out of this. One is Cante George, onene is Walter Clayton Jror, I believe is now on the Grizzlies, but like This is why you do that. Like you're going to find stuff that happens in these sorts of trays. And so if you're a bucks fan all of a sudden, just by getting your deal done early on, I feel like you have to be feeling pretty good right now Do you I'm not going to pretend the bucks also manage the Yanna situation well. We don't have to do that. We don't have to pretend that Yeah, well, it was a year late, but yes. A they afterfter they botched the first three stages of it, right trying to see the good in everybody. I know your cynical ass just will never get there. Just Justin's argument here is that there are levels of poopoo platters. There' different. There there are states of hardness of bowel movements. and you know, some of these poopoo platters are diarrhea platters and at least the buck has got more of a hard one, you know, That's what I'm saying. This is what it sounds like to buff Yeah fiber. ye. And the other part of this that I really like is Jayalen Duran, who's just like setting up all these phone calls, being like, oh, I got so much interest elsewhere. And all of a sudden the Lakers trade for Kessler and it's like, o. I guess you just gott to go back to the pestons. It just gets so much tougher when you have to look someone in the eye and pretend that you actually want to sign with the Kings as your leverage. Like at least the Lakers was believable. You just can't You can't convince anyone of that Isn't it interesting that we had two teams that are, you know, I mean, you can maybe make this argument for Portland to lump them in there these teams that perceivably were ascending and decided to make really interesting moves that kind of eat into the core essence of who they are. you think I mean, the hornets took a big bite out of what they were doing with with with Lamello And then the pistons. I think the pistons are one of the odest. I don't know if this is on the docket of things we want to talk about, but just the handling of Duran going and getting John Collins. I just think that's that's an interesting move for them and then Portland deciding like Dipping their toowing the Jhn M Rant stuff here. It's just like you would have thought that the pistons would have just run it back as it was and added, but it seems like they're taking a pretty big bite out of who they were. If their biggest addition is John Collins I mean, wf. That's's a tough outcome and not even addition, but like replacing Tobias Harris effectively with John Collins Deobias was to save their ass. One of most important players and John Collins does other things well. like the idea of having another lob threat is not lost on me. like he has been a good shooter. All those things are true But you need somebody who has like a little bit more one on one capability to counterbalance what Kate is bring to the table. notot just the they need the spacers, but they need guys who are creative too. When John Collins gets creative, I don't usually like it very much. So I really don't see the appeal of this kind of signing for them. It just really seems like they were stuck in their ways about what they want from some of other their supplementary guys. I thought this offseason was an opportunity to really explore what you can get outside of just having the Cade foundation and the defense that they have in order to just pop in different options, allow Asar basically to be the one non shooter in crunch time and you could just be a little bit more flexible. It just seemed like they lost a bias and so they just like we need a big physical shooter to be in four because we see ourselves as that sort of team, the team that's going to bully people around. Collins shot very well last year obviously option to play more of like a small ball five if really want to go there. And so like there's stuff there. But like even Isaiah Joe, good player, but still in that same mold they typically lean toward where it's like they cycle through these on ball shooters or these guys that have a little bit of spice in the six man sort of role and And that's just kind of it. I just I think it's a wasted opportunity after a last trade deadline where we thought that was the opportunity to hit the button to begin with They're also at that funky stage where they've obviously come on very strong, they've had their breakout season as a team. they've really established their identity And then you start like carving at that identity. It's like, Oh, beef Stew, we're just going to trade him away. John Collins a notorious like kind of like soft big in terms of the way he plays. You might now be our backup five or our crunch time five and Games where Jal and Durin is struggling We're going to bring in like try to get as much shooting on the floor, but oh wait, do we have enough defense to counterbalance what we're getting is shooting and not getting from these guys? It's I just think they're at a very strange spot I would not be shocked at all for one, if there's just a natural regression to the mean in terms of how many actual regular season games that the pistons end up winning Like they're going to come back down to earth a little bit, I would think. but also just like a really philosophical season from them as far as like Who are we? Which of these guys on our team actually serve the version of the pistons that we want to be. I think that stuff's going to be in the air all year for them. I was just going to tack on there. Yeah, John it's funny to think like, okay, we have this our five is having trouble like asserting himself in serious half court situations. And then they go and try to like put Salv on that with Salve. however weon I don't remember Salve S I think ital ith Collins, but I was just going to add this last. like Collins is absolutely in the D laon Wright zone for me where when there's no stakes, when there's no pressure on it, everybody is like, yeah, I like John Collins. He does some things. I like D laaonright, but the moment there are stakes, you're like, oh, shit, I don't know. I don't know if I really, you know, he just says this really interesting high approval rating that when it gets serious, Well see We'll see if John Cllin helps him Speaking of stakes, it feels like the Toronto Raptors think that they are big stakes for next season that I wasn't expecting them to have. So they get Ki back with the trade from the Clippers Ingram Dick to first one swap in two seconds going back to the clippers A warm and fuzzy reunion rob, but Also one that seems like it makes cold business sense too because as a result of this, he gets a nice little extension, which it didn't seem like it was forthcoming from the Clippers. And this is also a guy who's under investigation by the NBA for an an entire year Yeah. So it's like it's great to have them back, but also it seems like the primary motivation to get there was was this extension. Yeah I mean, look, not to wade too deep into the aspiration waters, but like Is he under investigation orr is the clippers are the clippers under investigation? I feel like they are more of the guilty party than he is, but that's not to say he couldn't be punished in some way. Assuming the NBA literally ever does that I think that What they gave up in terms of the picks, It's like quite a bit for a player of Kwi's age with his like constant will herear won't he play question But if you're going to get them on the three year deal with the extension, I'm totally fine with it. I like the Raptors accelerating in this way. I think I thought they showed enough during the playoffs to justify that, whether it was going to be with someone like Kui or not. So Why not get a half court killer who resolves a lot of what your existing team couldn't do? And frankly, it's just like, I don't know, roughly two thousand times better than Brandon Ingram. So like let's just do it. Lets let's just get the good version of the player we have that can fit and resolve a lot of our problems. And I think maybe most crucially just like the proof of concept. like Kawai is one of the best players in the world when he is right Now it's just going to be a question of if he is right often enough for the raaptors to be as good as they want to be. I mean, health aside quite the pace of his game I think should age pretty well because I mean he's not like a fly around rangey guy. He like brings you into his very strong physical world and and punishes you once you're in there. But defensively, was I was thinking about this. He absolutely you hate Brandon Inam Rob. I feel like you just it really amuses me But It's not. it's just's a loser. It's just disappointed We see this exact process so many times. How many times do we have to do it? That entire Lakers class, like all of those guys ended up being like Lonza was the only one that ended up they just all got they ended up being just castoffs everywhere they went Jh. Josh Hart's the one exception, really. Well, that's true. you got me there. irector. We're good. we'll sleep tonight The Raptors, hereere's the take for you. I think the Raptors, we've talked a lot about how the the heats defense on paper is going to be pretty gnarly next year. I think the Raptors have a chance to be Maybe the best defensive team in the East next year. They're going to be. Oh I mean, it's going to be fucking gnarly. You think about it out there. I mean, I'm kind of like U The shed quickly part of it is interesting, but the the callum Mur Murray Boyles and I was laughing about this at their front office that video leaked of them saying like we're the hand team now and it was just pretty amusing to me that What's the ultimate endpoint to that line of thinking? Let's go Tade for the guy who's the ultimate the hand guy himself. But you think about Scottty, you think about CMB you think about Ki. I mean, that's pretty tough dude. I mean, like that's going to be That's gonna be That's going to be something in RJ. Yeah. Well, especially, I mean Sed is small, but like he is pesky in a way where if you have all of the all hanting behind him, like that is a really formidable thing all of a sudden I think they realize in the playoffs what everyone else did that their future is Scottty Barnes and CMB and then everything else is kind of negligible. And I think adding Kawi is like exactly the type of player that they need around there, especially because if they're going to go into this project sixty nine mode again or like strong ball or whatever you want to call it, like it does feel like slots in there nicely to the point where like, yeah, he will have moments defensively, but you don't want to really rely on him to do any of the heavy lifting there. They have the defensive contacts to just support him and also be a little bit different than some of these other teams. like if you could be the one team still doing six nine like big wing small ball in a league that's slowly starting to gravitate more and more towards centers It's a nice little fastball a little like curve while everyone else is is throwing fastballs that like will give you something different. And I think that's the advantage of the Raptors where it's like, I don't think they'll be the best team, but they will be a different team that can compete. on the level of some of these other teams. And so on the one hand, it's a lot I don't know long term what they're thinking with a thirty five year old. on a two year deal on top of the picks, but There' a much more competitive, intriguing team next year than I ever expected before this. Yeah I mean, especially where they're coming from. They werere already one of the best offensive teams in the league. They were already an above average offense. and now it's all just kind of icing on the cake as far as bringing back Kai freaking Leonard to amplify and to add to that stuff. and Really, I think the other part of this too is like Kawai. We all know who he is as a scorer can get to his spots better than just anybody in the world pretty much. Maybe sort of like a Kevin Durant or ache. Also a really underrated defensive kind of contested defensive rebounder in a way that you can play him at the four really credibly And frankly like Any way you can wean yourself off of the Yaka Purl minutes and experience, I think is going to be worth Toronto's while. So Like CMB should start day one of the regular season without question. Like that should be your day one starter Scottty Barnes should also probably be a realistic and regular backup five for you. and playing Kawai at the four makes that more possible as a result. So I think there's there's just like a lot of downstream stuff with Kaai that now these other lineup combinations feel more feasible, more reasonable, more competitive even against some of the best teams in the East Uh Sh we talk about Jw in Portland If we must, I mean, how are you feeling about it? Time for you to cook I feel mixed I will say my kind of p to everything about the Blazers is I just go to a lot of Blazers game and I just want to have fun. And I do think watching John Morant just like trying to climb the ladder on most centers is going to be pretty thrilling. And so there's that. Ultimately, they didn't pay anything and it is just a talent grab or a hope that they could re energize this guy who was one of the five to ten best talents in the entire Lga guy who potentially just like was going to be the face of the NBA. And so I get it from that respect Jeremy Grant's contract was J as bad, almost as bad. And then Chris Marie is just a rotation wing at best. I don't think they really lost much there But I think it is telling that they had to make a talent crab becausecause despite going into the lottery for what was it four straight years before this recent draft don't have the type of talent that could push them over the top Yeah. And so that's why you go and reach for something like this. I think the fit is incredibly complicated. I don't totally see the vision if this is the last of the moves. I just assume this would be a setup to something else. I also don't love it. Now that Dan's there. likeike if Dame wasn't there, I get like just having one small guard you have to account for because he energizes your offense. And what we saw this entire last season, especially in the postseason, when Denny gives the ball up, you need something. The only time they actually had offense outside of Denny was when Scoot just decided to be the best guard in the NBA all of a sudden, then that went away just as quickly. And so Again, it's a worthwhile bet, but it just feels like they're already making bets with Dame and these young guys. I just don't know how it all fits together. That's really where I get caught on it. Yes, teams should make calculated risks for talented players who underperformed or flamed out or maybe had injury troubles or like you think your team can serve them better than their previous team. You should take those risks and you should see if they could work for you to me, this is so much more complex than just Jeremy Grant's contract versus Jw's contract and the potential therein with Jh There's so much opportunity cost here. Putting the ball in John Moran's hands. And that is the only way he plays. Like the only way he plays is as a guy who is someone you build around that you work around. He is now what you are orbiting as an organization It takes so much away from Danny at a really critical point in his development. Scoot Henderson might just like not play very much as a result of having all these guards in the mix. That's going to depend on Dame's health, maybe first and foremost. but All of these young guys who I I feel bummed about this because I believed in the core that the Blazers were building wanted to see them continue to grow and take incremental steps as they were adding other pieces, as they were rounding out the rotation. And I agree with you, they were going to struggle to pick up another star along the way as many of these teams do But this is like Jah is the kind of player who stands in the way of younger players development because of how he operates. It It's not even a selfishness thing so much It's just like that's the way he is wired to score and to create is these other guys aren't going to have the ball as much. And that part of it, I just have a hard time getting over like taking that risk more so than anything financial, anything as far as like who he is as a basketball player, which is aging and lessening and not getting to the rim as often, we should note I just don't like the cost of all that Yeah, I mean, the it's interesting like the Iiris and parallels just continue to really stack up where it's like this guy plays a certain way. It's this exciting thing, go sour. But I think if you're in the Joh Mor business, you're signing up to build a very specific type of team and The blazers don't have that te I mean, if you and they have guys in place, like I agree with Rob in terms of It feels like a It would it would irk me if I were scooted because it felt like finally I'm getting some traction after just having this really, you know, up and down just just more injuries, he starts out tough and then he's missing time and it's like he's just trying to get back. He finally gets back and has this moment. And then we trade for this ball dominant guy who doesn't really space the floor. He's You know, the st the hypothetical strengths that he would bring like you were saying, Rober, they were always going to be a tough aging curve for him as a smaller guy Um, he's not going to space the floor like we were saying. And u I don't know, in the The things that it would take to get the most out of him just don't feel like they're present in Portland. And is he going to be happy there? That's another factor here.s I guess it's kind of parallel to the Brown situation too, where you got these young guys that you want to give space. I feel like there are even fewer outlets for Jw to succeed in that way as opposed to even a Jalen Brown that I was criticizing earlier It's just like the kind of player that Ja is right now, which is somebody who demands a lot of you in terms of the players you put around him and your lineup and your strategy. doesn't deliver at the level of like a superstar or even really a consistent all star in recent years I would argue those are among like the most destructive kinds of players in the league. They stand in your way the most. And so if it works great, likeike The Job Maranth that was really electric for the Grizzlies. I would sign up every day to build around that guy. That was a play I really believed in. the galvanizing effect he had on his teammates like you could see the way he could proel an entire franchise forward I just don't think he's really that guy anymore. And if he's not that guy, he requires a lot of consideration to try to make his life easier Yeah, it really feels like it had to be Jw or Dame because the context that we're talking about supports like one of those small guards. and we'll even see what Dame even has left after taking a year off from basketball. But Dame just feels like a little bit more of a facilitator of good offensive flow and especially considering what he means to the franchise like he was just hanging out on the bench the entire year. You would imagine he would just like weave into the fabric there too the point where like they're already like filming videos of him welcoming Jw to the team because he is the unofficial spokesman of the team. And so like there was just like more natural like symbiosis there where things were going to ping a little bit more. that you could compensate for it because they had all of these these bigger physical wings and you wouldn't step on Denny and you would supplement Denn Jh like what is he doing when the ball is in his hands? Like on both sides the ball? He's not going to help you defensively. And when he gives it up, he's just going to sit there and nobody's going to guard him because he hasn't shown a credible three point shot the entire way. The one thing I would probably disag disagree slightly with you guys is that I don't know if Scot is the one that suffers the worst here. if only because looking at SU up until the playoffs where he just hit another level. I don't think we'll probably even see that ever again. that almost felt like a fever dream at this point. He was closer to Drew on a track than being somebody level of like a driver of an offense. Like I see him as From this point forward like dogged defender who really gives us shit, which is probably his bigest trait. I really think he cares a lot. And then the three point shot was coming along there. and maybe that's what they're saying where he's like more of the combin like the compliment to some of these offensive driven guys, but he is still pretty small. and so I think a lot of teams are going to shoot over the top of them. The guy who I'm most worried about is Shaden Sharp because like the success that he had all last season, which was primarily at the start of the season was him just driving the ball when it was just literally him and Denny trading off because they didn't have anything else. Right. I don't know, mayaybe that doesn't matter Shaden's always going to be kind of a lottery pull because he's just so goddamn talented I don't know if I'll put it together But like he's slowly but steadily like just adding things and you basically just stopped the like the like the lifeblood of like continuing to figure that out. If you're not going to do that, then he should be moved at this point Be I just don't see where he fits at all. I agree with you. L the capacity to just sort of roll the dice with him has greatly diminished. Like there's just not going to be enough touch as an opportunity for Shaden to be whatever the best version of him is going to be with this version of the team. I mean The only reason I'm worried about Scoot is I totally agree with you in terms of role, like off ball utility guard that feels like where he's slotting in and what he's shaping up to be. I really like that version of him But I think just from a minute standpoint, if I mean, let let's take this as starters first of all. Scoot's obviously not going to start. Dame. John Morant basasically announced as starters to this point. We'll see if that ends up being the case Uh Drew Tumani Kamara and Denny Aviia. onene of those guys is coming off the bench at least Drew Proably think it's Drew I think Drew is going to be basically a three four at this point because he's so strong and typically guards a lot of those guys. I think they're probably going to look at him because right now like they they have a pretty big hole in the front court. I did think it was hilarious that they went out and got Brandon Carlson as a third center when young is still there. It's just like That's as damning of indictment as anything. Yeah know they had toop Rreath in that role last year. So maybe theyre they're going to sell it as like, oh, well, he's just filling that orll bring young around slowly, but like Young should be playing that role no matter what, but It's a whole other issue. but yes, they have a hole at the wing power forward basically. Yes. I assume they they view Drew as that guy. Yeah. I mean, I guess they're just going to be playing three guards basically all the Oh I guess not three guards all the time, but like a decent chunk of the time and then just trying to find minutes for Tumani where they can I't know Jrew onene of the most important members of their team, like was as important spiritually to the defense they played last season as anybody That was what made them good. likeike they were a really good defense that had this all NBA worthy season from Denny Avdia. And John Morant compromises both of those things somehow we're going We're gonna let his style of play like have us pivot away from that? I just don't. I dont. And you were Yeah, I mean, just the very first thing that you said Dame's spin out and it's it just it's odd that we're not moving forward on what we have. It just feels like a really interesting it away because You started with John Dame and I was like, that already just doesn't make sense. Those two just so and you're bringing guys off the bench and it just feels like an odd step A side step. I don't you know, it might be like a diagonal backward step, honestly It' unfortunate, I felt like they needed one more year to build on what they had already established and then it could have been something pretty good. but Maybe it's an ownership thing, mayaybe it's whatever it is. Maybe they just like hit a certain point in their trajectory where they felt like they had to do something. I think they'll rationalize it is they' it didn't cost them anything in terms of pure assets. And so like what's the harm I think you guys are right. I just don't see how things align there Luckily they made a million dollars in this trade, so they can now pay for one year of Myiconori. Well, But if you are Miconori, your one year of guaranteed money is now I have to try to make John Morant and Damiian Lillard work as my defensive back court And then I have a team option. L's fucked up. It wass already down in South Carolina, just like greasing the wheels there just to try to make it att least . I mean, he's good like, he's a good coach I think he's going do a good job. It's justs it's a lot to ask South Carolina in July, M, that's some It's hot as hell down there But D you see Jh? he's out there kayaking getting ready for those Pacific Northwest springs and winters? Like I like kayaking. runun into him at REI a couple days from now. We'll be great. Are Are you a kayak guy? Are you a stand upp paddlebard guy No, but there's a lot of that happening. I'm more of an outsidesman now rather than an outdoorsman. Okay. Yeah. When it's nice out, I'll be outside just like mowing the lawn, doing stuff in the garden. but if like you want me to go to a gorge, like fuck off. Like I'm not gonna to just go like run up a mountain for Like a weekend, that's just not my vi. Out on Gorgeous. I mean, it's been tough. It's tough to hear uh any of these other deals you guys want to get into. We mentioned John Collins going to detroort. the flip side of that is to buy his hairis, going to the sct. We got it.s love fl What's going on? You don't like it? I just I'm mostly confused. What's going on? Really I like it, which I think it's Which part confuses you. I mean, he is just like significantly better Harrison Barnes. To me, he's just like not the kind of player I would have wanted for them, I guess. but Enough of a utility score that he's giving you something different from Julian Chimenny, certainly.'s Is that is that really it? Champenney killed him.. I mean, we talked about in the final like down the stretch defensively. he was getting like mercilessly hunted. We'll see if Tobias does, but The bias gives you a little bit more self creation inside the arc. It doesn't necessarily have to be like driving the ball, not that they're necessarily going to just dump it to him over and over again, but you get a little bit of that isolation Um catch and shoot three thing, I guess is the big thing because Champany just has really, really grown in that area over the past few years and he was lethal for as much as he got hunted. He also helped them build some of those big leads during the playoffs. I guess I guess that means he's moving back to the bench, right? I would assume. or to fives coming off the bench It is funny because I do think the one thing with Champagne is just his consistency, not only just like half like game to game, it's also like half to half at times with some of the shooting. Just like you get the paragon of consistency in the entire league with Tobias hairs where it's like no matter where he is, he's going to be More disappointing if you put expectations on him, but he's gonna give you exactly what you expect from him. Like He's going to be a big physical guy who's going score in interesting ways and enough of a stretch, but also not enough stretch. But like that's who he is. And so I think Tarrison Barnes is the perfect comp for him. He goes from playoff go to playoff go, you know You say that, but you're honest you guys are honestly selling me a little bit. I can start to see the vision. I just saw the news of the signing and I was like I never would have conceived of Tobias Harris as the answer for what we just saw from the Spurs in the playoffs. but He's answer to some of their questions, that's for sure Well, this is going to be the most that he's ever been scaled down because they have so much already there. Like I mean, I think the teams that he's been playing have stretched him out to the point where he's probably like I don't know, like a full size mattress cover and he's been asked to be like a queen size. I don't know what the I don't know what the comparison would be there. He just doesn't quite the sheet doesn't quite reach around. And I just think your feeter. Yeah. Yeah. when you look at the the spurs, I mean, the questions that they wanted to sort of address in the offseason, man, I mean, they basically aimed the turret at like a small target and just fired over and over again at at for. you mean. So now you think about the they went out got Terris reading the draft. They got Jane Qutons who's probably going play some four for them. And then they go and get toobias and you got Carter Bryant and they resign Harrison Barnes. It's just like the depth has been Short up. Gran Aquaintance probably isn't going to p for another year for them, but It's interesteresting. They accomplished the miss They had a hole and they filled it. So I think this is fine. Um Norm Powell to the Blls I mean, this is your team. This is your other team Justin like it I like it. And I like it because we're at the point now where tanking teams we don't have to like sllap them on the wrist for signing these in players What is the cost of doing this? It like Typically we would be like, what are the bulls doing? L they can't be just pretty good. And I'm just like, okay, be pretty good. be all that you can be. It still might not be much if you're a team like Chicago who's still hoping and betting on the development of some of the young guys, Cleb Wilson in particular. but like Norm Powell fills a void of shooting that they need in order to give these guys some space, just like steady vet He's fine You know? like I think it hurts the heat more than anything else. It's probably the big headline here. But like for the bulls, it's just like, this is great. like NBA teams are trying to be better and play more competitive basketball. Like we should be celebrating that. That's fair enough. and look, there's nothing about this contract that's offensive. Norm Powell is good, as you said, this is imminently movable if they ever wanted to make a trade to a contender for Norman Powell. A lot of teams could benefit from having him around I think for me, it's just like again, I don't want anything to stand in Caleb Wilson and Mas Bzeus' way as far as any of this stuff goes. I don't think Norman Powell would. So yeah, it's rounding out a lineup that is probably not going anywhere, especially in an East that's stacked as we just described So does it accomplish anything? No. Does it hurt anybody? Clearly not Yeah, you need some like multip purpose shooting gravity. I think on from that perspective because they got a lot of guys who are inside the arc downhill type players who are questionable shooters. So Norm Pow' he's going to get up contested shots and we know that. That's that's what he's That's what he's good for. In terms of like the other any other just ones did I did want to say I thought it was interesting that Yaxel is already quibbling publicly with the wararriors vets. I was I mean that I think fake quibbling. Was it I The question is is is any quibbling with Draymond fake quibbling? orr is it all real high stakes live ammo all the time feels live to me. I don't I don't feel like we're ever doing blanks with him. I don't know. obviously Jonathan Isaac, that's not really worth talking about, I guess. so much Vo have been going back to the magic? I mean, interesting for less money? Yeah, supposedly. The Moagner replacement What do you think? what do you think of the nets They're in on Julius Randall. They're in on Mo Wagner. They're in on Keon Ellis. I guess I have no idea. They're trying to play the beautiful game up there. That's true. I think I think it really could be as a chance to be something special. MPJ and Randall Santia Al Dama our guy. Yeah goingone to the Mavs for virtually nothing Clearly they had a crowded front Court in Memphis. Super crowded I thought that was a nice little piece of business to take advantage of that. Yeah just get him for what is like a pretty heavily protected pick down the road there. And how does that pry the PJ Washington trade conversations a little looser too? Like there's a lot of those guys kind of hanging around in Dallas where relics of the previous administration or era who are now still part of the team, who could be interesting to a lot of good teams. and Santif is the timeline better, Re really good play. I mean, we've liked him as a grizzly for a long time. and Frankly, I'm a little shocked that more teams didn't get in on that conversation or maybe they did and this was just the best offer, but it didn't even seem like it cost that much to get them If you're going to talk about free agency, you have to say pce of business like Justin did. That's one of the rules I've noticed if you piece of language. Thanks to Adam Poppas of Next Sports for helpping me with that business It's a good piece of mts Next all caps for some reason. I don't know why Do we need like a taboo buzzer system where it's like if we say piece of business during free agency, if we say small sample size during the first two weeks of the season, like do we need to be checking each other on these things If Justin says Deis or if Rob says Ballast, I've noticed I do love Ballast. I do. Yeah Bder sometimes, you know,, then we'll never get through a podcast of it on the content. No, see, I'm anti buttressing I'm all ballast no buttress Um What is this? Any else? G guys wantna hit before we get out here? I think we hit the big things. I mean, Justin, did you have any other curiosities among these signings that really grabbed you Uh just the work of CAA is Austin Brown. Yeah. I just thought was great. like Al believes in that guy. I know Kyle's been scouting his trajectory for a little while here. B Clidn McCaskell of Gluchon S sports Managment Sehn Kenny of XL Sports, man. Yeah That guy That guy's a dog. Let me put put togethereniable resume at this point. Yeah I can't wait until we do winners and losers of the offseason. It's just all agents. just up and down the list I think that's what men want. Dave Spawn. Dave you tell me, Dave spawn. sppawn get after it They don't make them like Dave Spwn anymore Kevin Bradbury of Lift Sports Management, Lift also in all cats. What Lif always in all cs. Yeah they always do. Well, their lift forortce management is a problem This is big time Sam Goldfeder I can keep going. You can do this all. Barlstein to go. I mean, Barlstein is it's it's it's implied at this point. He's just trying to You know, She's up there with Tell him and Who's the other? Yeah, anyway David Fall coming really putting together a haall of Fame resume. The Nugget the Marvin Rushmir I think' Rushmir Rushmir We should end this now. The pod is You don't want to talk Bagley? I actually think the Bagley signing was pretty good Oh hear it. I this pin. I thought I thought of Marvin Bagley, very low key very quietly actually pretty good for the Mavs last season at the end of last season. pretty decent backup big granted, this is a classic Delon right U like what will he be on a team with actual stakes where the backup center minutes are as scrutinized as maybe any in the league may not go super great, but for a team on the budget that I assume is going to get rid of Gonas Falentunus just for the non guarantee alone. Get a little dep there, find somebody who can play. I don't hate to have Marvin Bagley around I just wanted one of the graphics, like the SPN one where it's just like all of the peak centers. It's like Walt Chamberlain on the Warriors and just like all the greats throughout the year. And then the last cell is just going to be Marvin Bagley in March Playing for the wizards, playing the Mavericks. He puts up numbers. Let me tell He does. This is going to be like the fatiest young graphic is what you're really aiming for. Um But yeah, congrats. Hopefully that salvages what seems to be a very tricky sitation to us. Yeah their endeavor. Yeah, they really got to figure some stuff out That's the summer of dumb for you though This just keeps going on. What do you think is the dumbest thing yet to happen? Do you have any dumb projections I mean, LeBron seems like he's going to go to a team that we're not expecting. It just, I don't know, it just seems like we're we keep talking about the same options But if all those options don't necessarily satisfy all of his requirements, is he going to zag at a certain point to take advantage of his last year and just join a team that we're not expecting. I mean, we just talked about the Spurs, for instance, doesn't seem like that was going to happen, but like is there a team like that that's like on the precipice just needs a little bit of LeBron's magic pixy dust in order get him on the top. I don't know. Denver would be interesting. Dver would be an awesome zag That would be a great zag. I mean, your bulls, your blazers, both could use a Lebron I would say Lebron third option after John and Dame I mean, look him as a sixer as a fifth option Let's do it. Let's just make it happen Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Jesse Lopez for fillming it on production. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Jeff Schwartz at EXL Sports Management We'll be back on Monday you up