Reflecting on Career and Legacy

I are these answers too y long? I'm on a square podcast. Um well I suppose it's open ended, isn't it, really? And we can edit as well. Yeah. And when it when it comes when it comes out. When it comes out, it'll just be you going, Yeah. No I don't love you. Love you, Rom. Love you, Rom, love. And uh put that on a Hello there, I'm Ben Elton and uh I'm very very excited indeed because I am gonna be on the Romesh Ranganathan show, and it doesn't get any better than that, podwise. Oh shut up, Romish. This episode is brought to you by Virgin Red. So, Virgin Red means go. That's the whole idea. And I'm telling that because I am, by nature, someone who does not go. I'm world class at talking myself out of things. Someone says let's go away for the weekend, and within 30 seconds I've already talked myself out of it. So I stay home. Thinking about all the things I want to be doing. Which is why Virgin Red is, honestly, brilliant for people like me. Virgin Red offers epic rewards from the brands you love, and you earn virgin points from doing things you're already doing. Your travel, your shopping, your day to day spending, and those points unlock trips away. Hotel stays, live music, and experiences that become the story you're telling for years. Moments. They become memories. All you have to do is go. Go somewhere you've been meaning to. Go do something you never knew you could. And once you're there, you remember exactly why you said yes. Even better, your virgin points don't expire, so you can let them build up until something epic comes along. And it will. Ready to dive in? Become a member and start unlocking rewards that make life Feel a little more epic. Okay, you're ready. I'm gonna do your intro now, Ben. Okay. This is quite difficult for somebody with a career like yours, but let's give it a go. Uh my guest today is a multi award winning comedian, writer, novelist, director and lyricist. He charged onto the comedy scene in the 1980s with subversive stand-up and Sparkly Suits on Saturday Live and went on to help shape the landscape of British television. writing seminal sitcoms including the young ones, Blackhead, The Thin Blue Line, and more recently, Upstart Crow. He's also written a string of best-selling novels including Popcorn and Dead Famous, and created the smash it jukebox musical, We Will Rock You. His autobiography, What Have I Done, is out in paperback this week. It's the legendary, the peerless. The Supreme Ben Elson, everybody Thank you, everyone. Thank you so much for coming on. It is an honor to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much. That's very nice because I can genuinely say uh I'm a fan and it that's lovely. So thank you. Oh thank you so much. Now you have got Book outs. This is it right here. Yeah, that's the hard back. It's the paperback that's coming out. People can still get that. But the paperback I see will still be massive. It'll be a bit smaller than that, but it'll be a lot though the it'll have the same number of words, which is a lot. At least about a hundred and sixty thousand words. It's longer than Hundred and Sixty Thousand. Yeah, it's longer than any of my novels, that's for sure, yeah. So Hundred and sixty thousand. Did you intend on it being This how did it come about that it's I mean, obviously you've got a long career. You know, when you sit down to write your memoir, you know. I intend to stretch it to a hundred and sixty, or or indeed crush it. 'Cause I've got to say it's not all in there. But I had no predictions as to the parameters of the tome when I began uh writing. Did the publishers give you any uh guidelines? Honestly, I think they would have preferred it shorter because, you know, that is the modern world. They weren't saying there's anything they want to lose. Yeah. But just could you lose something? And I said, Well no, 'cause it's it's my autobiography and uh I'm not gonna cut it to size I certainly cut anything if it's boring or, you know, banging on, but I'm not gonna just take fifty thousand words out simply 'cause you want to short a book. They were great about it. Can I just be clear that the people at Pam Macmillan have been absolutely wonderful. This is not you're not starting a beef now, you're on the whole they tended to push towards, you know, can it come down a bit? But we were all very happy. How are you with taking notes? I'm always good with notes. I never I never met a note that I didn't appreciate. Uh on second reading. Um The thing about when you get when you get notes, you know, you always Fuck you know, I mean come on, you don't you know. And you know, do not reply at that point. How dare you? I mean you've basically torn the heart and soul out of my knobgag. What is left? What is left. Uh and uh you don't don't write that email immediately. You've got to sit on those notes for a day, read them again, and they're nothing like as bad. Yeah. I mean I don't read reviews. Because That's all that for a start, by its very nature, if I could read them before I was publishing or before I was on the stage, then maybe they may be of some use to me. But they're not of any use once they're over. And you'll say, Oh yeah, we might learn something if you know. You know. I mean I I have enough Critics. In my Not least my wife, but you know, people I work with. You know, uh and I listen. I'm good I'm good with notes. How long have you not l read reviews for? Since A silly cow in nineteen ninety. Uh which was a play I wrote uh the reviewer. Well it was a play sort of about a reviewer. Um it was a play based on a on a on a an a cause celebra at the time. There was a writer called Nina Mishkov who'd written a a scathing um critique of an actress who and saying she couldn't act. And the actress Basically you know, went for something we all dream of doing. the the actress w went for her and I think she almost I think she tried to sue. I mean something she said, You can't say I can't act, you can say I'm this, that and the other and I'd at the time already, you know, had a fair few slaggings and I used to think, you know, if I was a baker And and all a bunch of anonymous, you know, bread eaters in newspapers published goes saying this isn't even bread. You know, this this you know, I mean if it had been bread I could have but I've had that, you know, this is simply not funny, this is simply not a a play. I I was interested in this actress saying you c you can't say I can't act. I've been in the RSC, I've done this, that and the other. I mean it's just not fair. And now two million people have read it. Anyway, I wrote a play adjacent to that story, uh for Dawn French. Because Dawn had which was very lovely, had asked me to think about writing something for And it it was a great it was a who done it about a A great subject, which is artists trying to get their revenge on critics. uh which is I'm certainly not the first person to plumb that depth. Uh I I I wrote the play and the reason I don't Remember the name of the actress is probably Because The producer went litigation crazy and said you c this is obviously the Mishkov story. And you for instance, you've made Dawn's character a lesbian for various reasons. Well, she might say I'm not a lesbian I don't think she is a lesbian. You know, and then so they made me Push it further and further away. From The source material, which I'm perfectly happy to do, 'cause it wasn't documentary. I mean I was inspired to write the play, that was all. So that's why I I I I left the source material well behind. It was only a article I'd read in a paper anyway. Anyway, it got absolutely slacked. And don't You know critics. Fine, you know, whatever they want to say, free world, et cetera, uh and that's fine. But it the problem is you shouldn't read reviews because if you read a review that says this this this novel is ninety nine percent novel writing perfection. Ninety nine percent of this probably better than any other novelist has ever written. All you're thinking, of course, is one percent. Um So you know, no all Power Tem, they do their thing. Uh we do we do ours and uh but I I I very much don't actually read it. Yeah, but you know, my promoter, producer, blokal Phil MacIntyre, you'll be aware. No, it's not Bengal, Ben, don't read them. Well I wasn't gonna no well don't you know. But that's that's uh uh that's you know but you always hear and some well meaning friend will say I was outraged when they said you were a hypocritical piece of shit. I'm gonna write and of course I my day had been great up until that point. I'm sure I'm sure you have the same No Well you've probably never had a bad review. I think I've had a good one, exactly. We all feel it and uh it's a thing And it's best not to the only advice I can give is it's slightly the best the only way you can mitigate a bad review, it's always horrible. It affects your business. So I mean about a baker selling bread, it's not even bread, you know, you're basically someone who's saying, Don't go and see this, you'll hate it. You know, and I'm thinking, as every artist has ever thought, but everyone else seemed to enjoy it. I mean, didn't you hear the laughter? Yeah. You know, all that goes on and on and on and on. And the only way you can make that slightly better is not to have actually read the thing because the phrases themselves And you can ask any actor, they can remember the verbatim. They can't remember their lines, but they can remember the slang. Yeah, I remember quite exactly. Yeah, awful. Uh now we've got you a gift. Mm? Um It's two gifts actually. And but I just I was about to open it for you. You you're capable of doing that. They're not wrapped, are they? No. Oh two gifts. Alright. Now that is uh that is a fidget pen. Yeah? It's for It's for writing if you're qu distracted. It might fall apart. I'm not do I am I supposed to get it out? No, you got now Georgie on the team has has actually experimented this for you and then that's it as a dog. Oh I see you oh well fun so oh no actually that that's great fun. Yeah I'm presuming it On the On the cover there's an actual pen. Doesn't really give any sense of its potential, does it? And And but you can break it up. I presume that there's a very, very s small inkwell. I mean, basically only the last section one would presume has a little plastic tube of ink in it. So it probably ran out quite quickly, but you can still play with it, isn't it? Yeah, I mean uh we were hoping you weren't gonna find the shortcomings of it so quickly. What's the issue, yeah, the issue I mean I presume that Yeah I mean after what you said about critics you've really gone in on this pen. No no, they're every right, I'm not you know whatever. It seems like you like it. And uh and is it a books? Is it a blank is it a blank paper book paper book. Well that's delightful of you, thank you. No worries. I re honestly You seem so underwhelmed I can't quite believe it. Just be honest, just be honest. Sixty at sixty six. Mm. This is a great this is a present that people give. You know? I I've you know, like oh you're going to those lovely stationary shops, mole skin, you know, and And you know, you get and you're stuck in or whatever you you know, uh over the year, you know, and then you know, they like a podcast, you might get given one on a podcast and Um thank you, but I don't need a load of blank pages. I've stared at them enough and um I've got You know, my wife's very, very eco conscious, as am I, but she's much more so um you know, we have to rinse our cling film, you know. We do God knows how much water we're using. Don't want to quote my but we do. We rinse them and we hang 'em out. Our kitchen looks like an explosion in a condom factory. But anyway, she won't let me throw anything out. So we've got millions of empty notebooks and and a lot of them funnily enough, a lot of them have the beginnings of a story. By one of not by me, but one of my uh children. Right. Because you know, kids they do that. They come I'm gonna write a story. So we've got a lot of books of just like this, except with a A little bit going on on the first page. Oh, we can't throw that away. Look, she did that or whatever. But anyway, not throwing all the other pages away. So look, um Yeah, sorry, I guess. I'm a traveler. It's a very climb present. Yeah, no. I know there'll be somebody Actually would anybody like this? No. No. Okay, so not only not only do you not want it you Can't believe the idea of anyone else wanting it either. I bet a lot of people have got a lot of blank. Blank books. Yeah. L lovely books. A lovely I wrote a line of my play Popcorn years ago where the psycho killer's talking about shooting up a shop and it was a it was a Smiths or something and she I love stationery, she says. And it's true. We all love stationery. I uh everyone loves a stationary shop. So I can go in and feel 'em in the shop and then, you know, not buy one. But look. Thank you. This doesn't sound great. No, it's great. But if anything we it feels like we've given you material. Now if we can uh if you can bring yourself to uh tell us about your beginnings, 'cause obviously you've had a an incredible career. Wha wh what's kind of your route into writing and and comedy? Uh well I didn't You know, I didn't have any idea in my very early years. So I I really had a couple of a epiphanies that that that changed the course of my life. I probably would have ended up where I am. Maybe you know, obviously I've been very fortunate to to have quite a a degree of success. The first Inkling was uh when I was ten. the school uh at the school there was an announcement that a local theater little amateur theater group call the Curtain Raisers um uh were putting on Peter Pan and they were appealing for lost boys. And I was very excited but and said to my I want to audition for that. And she said that'd be great. You shouldn't I then forgot about it. But fortunately she reminded me on the Saturday morning I went to the audition. I didn't get John. I got understudied John. He's the one with the top hat and the glasses in Peter Pan. Uh uh but I got slightly soiled. I mean that's the name of a part, not not that I was over excited. I've never said that before. It sounds like an old joke but but um I got the role of Slightly Soiled and I absolut as my grand said, she's from Cheshire Oh, you've got the book, Benji. You've got the book because she was also big in amateur drama. In the twenties and thirties she was had a lovely voice and she was the uh lead soprano of the local Gilbert and Solomon Society back before the before the Second World War. So she knew about having the bug, she loved theatre. And I thought I wanted to be an actor and I could think of nothing more than being an actor from that moment on. It was only three nights in in you know Godleman it was on so village barrow hall. Um But it w it felt like the West End as it does to any kid getting it like like every soccer match feels like Wembley, you know, if that's what you're into. And then so I want to be an actor and I started getting involved in um Dram. I did the Artful Dodger a couple of times in Oliver. Uh and um Then a number of first thing I was watching lots of Telling Falling in Love with Malcolm and Wise and Two Ronnies and thinking about where are those jokes coming from. I was very aware of writers right from the start. I've always, you know, kind of seen the credits and um And yeah, I I knew absolutely, and from the age of thirteen or fourteen, I knew that I wanted to be a comic writer. I wanted to write comedy. I had no real ambitions to perform at the time, no ambitions to direct until I saw a few directors fucking up my stuff. And then I you know so all writers feel that. All writers. Richard Curtis eventually got round the camera and I'll do it now. I think I um So yeah. But then You also Uh phenomenal stand up and You know, you haven't mentioned that as part of your ambition at all. But for for a lot of comics, your stand up was so ahead of its time. And actually if you go back and watch your stand up now pacing of it, the speed at which you deliver punchlines, what you're talking about, the social commentary. It's aged so incredibly. You are you are you became a an unbelievable stand up and a big influence to a lot of stand up. But that wasn't part of your so how did that come about that you ended up doing that? Yeah, it really wasn't. I I had no um thought of becoming a stand up comedian. As I say, I've been in a double act in amateur music halls in church halls in Surrey, you know. But that was not I wanted to be a playwright and and and and when I went to university um I st I I wrote plays and I've I didn't put myself in 'em. I mean obviously I I have a healthy ego, but it's not one that makes that is about me being seen. I mean, as you can see, I've not made an enormous effort. By the fact that the instructions were to come camera ready. So this is this is me camera ready. If this is your camera ready, that's it. I love people to love Done, but it's different ego. So no, I had no idea of not even wanting to be an actor. Uh I I rarely put myself in my plays at university. I must have put fifteen plays on a university and my original stuff, always directing other students. And when I left university I was already very aware of what Rick and Aid were doing, Rick Mail and Aid Edmondson, because uh very fortunately sometimes stars, you know, didn't quite align because they were two years above me and I was very close to Rick at university for a year. I didn't know aid hardly at all. We became very, very close soon after, but uh but anyway, though I was aware of what they were doing in London. There was this thing, alternative comedy going on, and Rick had already said, Come and write me some fucking gags, Farty Uh and uh and uh he was, you know I was very happy to, you know, I was writing a bit of stuff in and around Rick and uh I wanted to make a living doing comedy and I also wanted somehow to advertise my wares. So yeah, the obvious answer was I can see what Rick and Aid are doing and a lot of far less competent comedians in a comedy store and a comic strip. Um and I could do that. And I had this thought. I mean, one thing's for sure, I think I could do better material than almost any of them. I yeah, I was arrogant enough to think I I've got better gear and I can write it tonight. Um and uh but performance wise I had no real idea of who I was. Right. But I was lucky, you know, Rick Rick got me an audition at the Comic Strip, which was the high end of the two alternative comedy clubs. There was no circuit. There was a comic comedy store, which was a bear pit. Horrendous you know, just a a battleground. Um uh very unpleasant. And then there was the people who were good at the comedy store who'd all left en masse to do the comic strip, which was a much, much, much better you know, the audience were there because hey, this is the exciting scene. This is these these are the new wave of comedians rather than the audience of there. to get a late night pint and get their rocks off shouting at some poor diminutive student on stage. Um but I got an audition of the comic strip because I knew Rick. And a my first show, I did two character pieces. Say my first show, my my audition and he go I did a impression of Ronald Reagan with jokes about uh Grecian two thousand, which was a graying, you know, and and and something about, you know, destroying democracy, the Greeks and him and anyway, I can't quite remember, but I made a link between a hair white uh a a a a hair dye and democracy by a Greek. So anyway, that was the Reagan sketch. Uh Died beyond dice. So there I was four or five minutes into my big break at a c and that was death. But I had a second bit. Uh so stuck a sort of little pillow up my jumper, put on a bright blazer. Did what? You know, now we would perhaps question it, but I did the f the fat northern comedian talking about his wife. Um, I you know, now we'd think hard twice about the terms we use and like categorizing, but nonetheless there were a lot of fat northern comedians, they were uh on a show called the and some of them were great, some of them were brilliant artists, but there was an awful lot of my wife's so fat my wife, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, you know, you should see it. And I did a kind of Bernard Manning pastage. which didn't really have any jokes in it, it was just a rant about how fat My wife was, but you know, I'm fact anyway. Yeah. And that was good, man. Yeah, it was a it was a clear I mean the audience it as a satire on sexism. Yeah. Which I did quite a lot of, and I could be pretty funny at. I then slightly queered my pitch by ending with a sexism in comedy, knock it on the head. Or or the likes because I'd only just graduated and students can be terribly self important and I'm sure I I I fell into that that pit somewhat. Got another gig at a comic strip and then I had to beard the lion and take on the comedy store 'cause there there was there wasn't any there was no future for me at the comic strip. They had their own that was orders. Rick and Aid, Peter Nigge, Jenny and Dawn and Alexi and Arnold Brown. So that was them and I got a guest spot just because somebody was away. That was it. So I had to go on my own and take it on and And I d I did well, but very quickly I dropped character work. became my own character. Which was a a a shout, yeah. more aggressive version of who I was. I'm not remotely aggressive. No I've never been in a fight, ever. I'm very proud of that, you know? But the comic comedy store was a terrible place to play. Um audiences could was gong shows, they could shout. It's always lads. They've still got the gong shows. Yeah, they do the odd gong show. This was a gong show. That was it. And it and it was And I very quickly became Compare because I I was quite good at it. And as I say, I had the material and I could write more of it. All the time. So did material come easily to me? Yeah, totally. I mean uh uh writing comes easily to me. Um, I mean it isn't always I'm sure, you know, there'll be your listeners. Well perhaps we'll talk a bit more. I do make a lot of effort, but I I I I find it's something that I was People say, Are you driven? I say, No, I'm inspired. I'm inspired to write. I'm not driven to write. I'm inspired to write because I've I've got some ideas that are tumbling out. I'm not as fast as I used to be. Um when you're young You know, it's all exciting. Every idea's a winner, and you're just bashing it down and just churning churning it out. Yeah. I mean I was a jobing writer. I did stuff for Rick, I did stuff for for for Pete and Nig uh uh I I I was s s s satirical. I mean I I I I dissec where you know, I did routines about taking us facts like you can't advertise tampons on the telly, which you couldn't used to be able to do, which is just kind of insane. But we lived in a literally lived in a world where where where men's duration was a secret. Was something even called tampon secrets and whispers and you know, gave them word like you know. And you know, this is clearly, you know, corrosive sexism and patriarchal beyond belief. And and I And I you know, I I I knew how to skew it. I I said what would it be like if men, you know, men men menstruated, well it you know, we'd be boasting about it down the pub, wouldn't we? You know, well, you know, I was bleeding last night, fainted, you know, gallons, mate, gallons, you know. You know, you know, and uh And uh you know, I I did a big long routine about it, and some of your listeners, if they know my work, will know it. But it's an example of a l of a lot of the stuff I did, which was A little bit of politics. Which we kinda sort of put catchphrase in. And and and use it to create actual comedy, not comedy that you just agreed with. Yeah. But comedy that made you laugh. And you could even laugh even if you didn't agree with it. That was obviously the aim. So yeah, I became I became a stand up comic, but it was never my ambition and for many years I I hated it. I hated doing it. Yeah. It was it's you know, it's hard. You're putting yourself on the line and, you know, you've got to I never died. I mean I I've never I've never had the you know, the the experience of really fucking up on stage again 'cause I my material you know, I worked. I didn't improvise on stage. You know, I mean a lot of comics they think the way and maybe they're right for them is to go on and no, maybe they've got a couple of ideas and they just busk with it. No, I work really hard at home. So everything you said was heavily scripted. Heavily scripted. Now, if you have done that work, and frankly most comics do. It's a myth, you know. We Robin Williams used to come down a comic strip comedy store. And you know, obviously a truly great stand up. But the first time you see it, you think, My God I mean he's literally taking this woman's handbag. You wouldn't do that now, but like, you know, he's doing and he's and it it's like as if he's literally making it up as he goes along. Of course, then you see him the next time. And he's not. He might be in a bit of a different order and there might be a few new things, but basically he's just got a shed load of shtick. And Billy, Billy Conley, my f my my greatest comic, my greatest British comic in my lifetime. You know, again, he appears to be you know, he's laughing it through, it's occurring to him. Because it isn't. He's got a dude, he's got an eighty date. I used to say people say to me, Oh, you know, I kinda love the show I came again, it's just the same stuff again. Yeah, 'cause obviously I'm gonna like two hours of brand new like pack. You know, then maybe I could do a new show every night. But if I'm gonna give you honed material So yeah, I work incredibly hard on my stand up comedian uh stand up material. Always did. Learn it. Very boring job shouting at edges as you walk along in a Um, and then then you can improvise some strength. If you've got a routine and you know where you're going, then often Oh my goodness. You know, the muse touches you and you come up with something new on stage and that's in a moment of That's sublime. I mean wood Woody Allen uh spoke for all comic writers when he said when I write a joke I'm hearing it for the first time. Because you really don't know where it comes from. At the but when the when the rubber hits the road, your Keith Richard everyone talks about songwriting. You don't write songs you just look em from the air, man. You know, but that is kind of how Creation is. You ca if you could plan it then you'd You don't really know where the perfect thing hap comes from until it arrives. Normally for me that's at home with a computer or a pen. Blank lovely blank. book maybe one I could be trying to fill. Um and uh sometimes it's on stage. But I well I do I I do want to talk to you about Black Adder. Oh okay. Yeah. Because Yeah, I recently I t I did a show called Last One Laughing. And they do this thing, I don't if you w I don't if you've ever had this where they For the social media team, they basically it's a really reductive way of doing things. What they do is they go, We're gonna do a face off and then they name two sitcoms, you've got to choose your favorite one. And then it's like a knockout tournament. It's really horrible way of do they just do it for a social media clip. Anyway. Black Adder appeared and then it trumped every sitcom that they named after that for me, because I think Did they name the young ones, the thin blue line and Upstart Crow? Yeah, I asked them to, and I dismissed all of those. No. No, but but for me, Black Adder is If not the, it's in the conversation for best ever sitcom. It's incredible. First of all, it's so relentlessly funny. You know, you sort of think about even the the journey from the first series to the second series. You know, it's it's it's so different. But still funny in in in different ways. I mean it it's it's When you talk you know when you talk about the rigors of writing, you can see that You can tell that a lot of work has gone into that. What was kind of your journey with that show? Well, um you say the journey from the first to the second, that was that that was it, except it it wasn't a journey, it was an arrival. Um and you you said, you know, they were both funny, but not in but there you're wrong, of course, 'cause the first one wasn't funny. That's probably pitching it too hard and I apologize to Richard and Rowan who wrote it. But um Yeah Black The Black Adder. Which was the first series of what became the Black Adder sort of thing um was written by Richard and Rowan. It was not it wasn't done in the studio, it wasn't a studio sitcom. Um and it was done on film. And I I don't think I'm giving away any secrets when I say it was what they call a curate's egg, good in parts. Um Richard and Rowan definitely thought that because Rowan dropped out as Riger, as far as I know, he's the only he was I don't think he's written anything else since, and I don't I'm not sure he'd written anything before that. So Black Added two was a complete reinvention. Um and really I sort of wanted to to have a different Name and it did kind of. Because it was no longer the Black Adder, it was Black Adder and that was his name, whereas the Black Adder was a nickname. But I was very, very fortunate in that after the Black Adder had been deemed a curate egg by all the people who who were in on it, um, you know, we need to think hard about this now. So there's Richard. Now if that had been me, I'd have said, Yeah, thank God I'm you know, the that weight of of of of not funny writing is off my back. I'm gonna do it on my own. I and I I would unquestionably observe right, I can handle this. To my immense good fortune and life changing good fortune, Richard said, No, I I I don't want to write it on my own. I'm interested in in Ben. And Richard came to me and he a ga he came to me 'cause he loved the young ones. I didn't know Richard, you know, he was one of the Oxbridge, you know, gang. That was a sort of separate world. The the not the nine o'clock news world, you know. He came to me and we we just headed off as friends immediately. So when the Black Adder sort of job of co writing the Black Adder came open because Rowan dropped out Richard asked me. Uh, and of course it was life changing for me and it was life changing for everyone because my element was undoubtedly significant. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I didn't bring something to it. Um between Richard and I, we agreed on a radical reinvention, and that was that we should go into the Studio for a start. Run for one of the world's great Performers, live performers. His Edinburgh shows were legendary. I mean he doesn't like it. He's Somewhat. Anti social's the wrong word, but he he he keeps a distance, you know, and I think it's well known. Um he doesn't enjoy performing, I don't think very much, but he's brilliant at it. Um, let's get in the studio, let's get laughed, let's do what we do very well in Britain, which is do a studio based, community based sitcom with an ensemble of great actors playing to a live audience. So that was a big change. But by far the bigger change was Let's change the characters. And I was very clear on that from day one, which is that You know, Rowan's playing an idiot in the blackout at the first is Oh, I don't really know what's going on. Um, and You know, I said it in my book. Uh and he rose read it and enjoy the book very much. Uh I enjoyed your book. Um I didn't offer a quote. Uh but anyway As I know your publishers hoped I would. Uh but then he doesn't. You know, he's not that's not you're not gonna get that from Roe. Um but he's he's read what I wrote, which is that, you know, whisper it not, I don't think Rowan's idiot characters are as funny as his superciliously superior characters are. I mean, of course Mr. Bean isn't a colossal global success. And I love it, but I principally love it for its nihilism, for its for its wickedness, for the fact that Mr Bean is not cuddly. bean is vicious and and can be spiteful and scheming and and and that side of it I love. But I don't I thought the Black Rowan's Black Out of character just isn't funny and nor's Baldrix. I mean he's the sort of you know the scheming one. Let's swap it. So I don't know whether Richard or I, but we both agreed immediately on this big change, which was to make Baldrick the idiot. And Rowan, the scheming one, the clever one. 'Cause I mean Rowan Being effortlessly superior. Ah. Come in, you know, is is is is is is peerless. Uh, and so that was w without doubt the most significant shift. We didn't do such a big change with the character of Percy, but it it sparked a collaboration. between Richard and I, which I I tra we only ever done it once, but You know, it was a beautiful, beautiful collaboration and a beautiful friendship. And when people ask us who wrote what We literally have no idea. We really do. There's this sort of myth that, you know, I did all the rude stuff and he did all the cute stuff. Complete myth, you know. I mean we're I do tend a bit more towards the the knob gag and he tends a bit more towards the cute, but you know, I can write a sweet little upturn nose joke and he can write a a a turnip shaped gonad, uh or a gonad shaped turnip. Um gag. Uh so we are ambidextrous, is that the word in terms of cute and and rude. Uh One of the luckiest days of my life was the day Richard had the generosity Which is I say I I don't think I would have had the creative generosity to say I don't want to do this on my own. And that's why I got to What we're gonna do. ab about that is I just can't imagine that happening now. That you t you took it so far from the original, right? You know, that switching the characters, all of that, it's such a radical change. Was there resistance to that, or were they happy to just let you do whatever you want? Well there's a sort of quite a good story about that. Um most people don't know this, although the those of them who've read my book will know. Um that Black Hadder was actually cancelled after the first series. What happened was the first series, as discussed, was considered, you know, lots of strengths, some weaknesses. Cost an awful lot. John Lloyd, the producer, brilliant man, brilliant comic man, another great colleague over the years. Um John Lloyd And famously said. Black Adder uh one looked a million dollars. Unfortunately, it cost two million dollars. That was his joke. And it kind of we didn't work in dollars and I think it probably was about, you know, a hundred thousand quid. But but it it basically it cost too much. It cost a lot and it didn't deliver. It was the big investment in Ron Atkinson, the standout star of Not Nine O'Clock News. Um, sorry, Mel, Griff and Pamela. Uh but they all became stars. But Roe was the man. And uh the investment hadn't paid off. But they decided to go with it again. Then there was that old enemy of creativity, regime change. How often, I'm sure it's happened in your career, God knows it's happened to me. You're in development, it's all going well. boss changes and he just ch or she just chucks everything out because if they go on with it, the previous person gets the credit. Well that was previous person's project. And if they go on with it and it fails, then they get the blame. So I've had pr really good, promising stuff just killed by it The simple fact that the new boss doesn't want the old boss's promising stuff. Anyway, so regime came in. Michael Grade came over as controller of BBC One. And the first thing he did was looked at his comedy budget and he thought, he spent that much on that show, didn't really work, and he cancelled us. And I got a letter through the post. In fact, Richard, who was much more in the loop than I was even then. Now he 'cause you know, he the Pope takes his phone calls and, you know, Bono asks to bring him tea in the morning. But uh even in those days, Richard before Four Weddings, before, before He's wonderful. in so much in global famine. Um Even then he was so well connected, you know. As my as Phil McIntyre said, You don't get to be head the first Australian to be head boy of Arrow without something about you. He knows what he's doing. And he came to me on our last edit session, we were just putting in all the script, we're about to send all the scripts in. Everything had been written. He said, They've cancelled it. I said what he said, I'm just telling you, they've cancelled it. They don't they're not going to do it. We'll get paid for the scripts when they're not going to use 'em. And lo and behold, next day in the post post was quick in those days, I got my letter from John Howard Davis, head of entertainment. Michael Gray has cancelled the Black Adder and I regret to say for the not just a for this means it's it you don't don't hold out hope. It's over. Now I still have that letter framed in uh the my lavatory. Uh and uh well I have a number of laboratories. I don't want you to think I've only got one loot. No, that's right. Nobody assumed that you're I move it around. Um I judge the measure of a man's success by how many flushable loots he's got. You can't count caravans. Then we went into overdrive. I had no influence, but Rowan's a Rowan's agent, Richard Armitage, had a lot of influence. Um and John Lloyd had some influence. He'd produce not on the nine o'clock news and they went to Michael Grade. And they said, look, everything you w don't want we've already chucked out. This is a new show. It's got a similar title, Black Out of Two, but it's it's in the studio. It'll cost half as much, it'll be five times as good. Lo just look at the scripts, et cetera. And to his immense credit. He reversed His decision. Which was a huge thing to do. Now, sin Michael has kind of convinced himself and rather dined out on the story that there never was a cancellation. He's simply wrung us young punks up and said, Now look here, you look what you need to do is put this in the studio. You need to make Ada Black Adder the clever one. Uh and Maldrick the fool. Uh and basically so it you know, bless him. He's he's rather dined out on the idea that it that he sort of forced our young punkish talents. wrangled us into line and that's why the ad was such a complete bullshit. Uh there was no doubt uh Michael Grade came in after the whole series was written. Where he could gain enormous credit, more credit in my opinion, is that he reversed his decision. That's a huge thing for a boss to do. come in say, right, well I don't want that and chuck it out. And the budget was reallocated, so when he brought it back, he had to take budget from the following year. So it's a huge reverse ferret, as they now say in politics. Big, brave, bold decision because of course it made him look like a flake, you know. We'd gone in and said, Oh, please, can you let us do it, really? And he go, Oh right, then you can. You know, it it had it not worked as well as it had, I mean he would have looked such a fool. So I think it I mean we w we owe him so much. But not remotely for the reasons he's been saying for the last four years. Good on Michael Grade, a huge figure in the business, but that's the real story of the Black Add. So w you mentioned young ones. Of the sitcoms that you've written, what's the one you're most proud of, then? Well, up until quite recently I always just say, you know, none of 'em and all of 'em. I don't go around really being proud of my work. I'm proud of the fact that I did my best. And I don't look back. I never watch anything that I've done, I never read anything that I've done. It's not out of some kind of it's all dead history to me. It's just not interesting. I'm interested in the next thing. And if I did if I do happen to catch a bit of an adder or young ones on a plane or something, all I can think of is the stuff that I was furious about at the time. It never dies. They never should have cut that joke, that edit's awful or whatever. Uh, or we could have done better. And so I don't think about my work and I know that every single project I ever did I did my best at, and I always thought at the time it was my very best work. And so I genuinely never had an answer to that, and it was always a rather boring, perhaps pious sounding one, which is I'm proud of 'em all. Now I have an answer and that is upstart crowd. Because You know, that was written in adversity And It was a a very hard write. It's a hugely You know, though I say it myself usually research piece. uh takes an awful lot of sort of digging into Shakespeare. Uh and I was coming from a position of some considerable weakness in as much as I'd had a big failure with a show I'm very proud of, and as proud of as the young ones, which is a show called The Right Way, which starred David Haig, which was somehow deemed to be a an insult to comedy and you know I was really hauled over the you know, they had a discussion on Newsnight, why is Ben Elton so shit these days. Um how did that feel to be at the center of all that? N not great. I tried to hide a bit. Um Vice, is it Vice? One of them one of the early websites, they they did a round up of reviews Which uh I didn't see the reviews, but I was told about the headline, Should Ben Elton be put on suicide watch. Uh, you know, so it was it was yeah, it was pretty heavy, you know. I and I happened to you know, 'cause somebody told me that Guardian Ben El must never be allowed to make television. Look, the Pete's prop maybe it wasn't good, although I thought it was funny, I still do. But it was a very traditional studio based sitcom about a health and safety worker. Um who was, you know, overly officious. you know, and w w always wore his hive to bed and that sort of thing. And um anyway, it'd been viewed as like, you know, the last nail in the coffin of a sadly compromised eighties lefty who's revealed himself as, you know, a talent sad act. Uh and you know, that was kind of me done, which w certainly for TV and things which I don't think it's out of po I mean I I I was still selling novels and things, but yeah, it was pretty grim in terms of a general presumption that I was a majorly busted flush and probably one who'd somehow sold out everything he ever believed in in the first place. I'm I'm very good with advertising, you know you yeah. Oh God, fuck, that's horrible. And then you get over it. And as I say, I'm very ha lucky to be happy in general. Well, yeah, I mean it's fortunate that you're able to do that 'cause it's yeah, uh and it you know, you've got to pick yourself out and dash yourself down, et cetera. And then I got this opportunity, which I never expect. I thought that's me for sitcom forever, but But Shane Allen and a another one like Richard, like many people in my life. I I owe an immense debt to. Shane Allen was head of comedy at the BBC at the time. And he said I've got something I want to talk to you about and I j I just couldn't believe it because I I really was pronounced, you know Uh um He said the four hundredth anniversary of Shakespeare's death's coming up. All the other BBC departments are doing something on Shakespeare except Light Entertainment or that's called comedy, ain't it? Um He said we should do something. And I think, you know, had a history, you know, er bit erodite, but with lots of knob gags, you're the man. In a way. He said not commissioning you, but do you have any thoughts? Said, I had an idea, you might like to write a Cod Shakespeare play. you know, we could do a one off like a a an un you know, a r newly discovered Shakespeare play. So I I but I thought no, a sitcom about Shakespeare's life. I had a lot of reasons for that. I thought he was the perfect, like lower middle class Englishman pushing against the po Posh boys. The more I read about Shakespeare, the more he reminded me of Captain Mannering. You would think not how would that be? But I can explain it. Basil Fawty, the traditional British sitcom hero who th who is who is clever and can see what he ought to be and it doesn't get it because of the all the society, class prejudice, et cetera, et cetera. Shakespeare. It's called Upstart Crow because that is the only known review of Shakespeare that has survived, which is this upstart crow dressing himself in the feathers of a poet and a gentleman, you know. They resented him and his talent enormously. And I thought, that's a great sitcom, you know, and he was a commuter, you know, Stratford, London, London, Stratford, lots there. He had a he had lived with his parents in law, you know, oh my God, you know, et cetera. So I said we should make a sitcom and it anyway, look that you ask what am I most proud of? I don't really care about the word pride. Uh I I'm very proud of Upstart Crow and the fact that it was It was loved. I mean not in a level up. Adder is but nothing's you know, I mean, by the time Upstart Crow came out, the B B C was getting was pleased with two million when ten years before they'd have wanted million. So we got the two million and they were thrilled and Oh yeah, Upstart Crow was a labour of love and making friends with with David and discovering David as a dear friend and colleague. felt like meeting Rick or Ro or I you know. And uh yeah, so it was just a fantastic late life. My my wife called that period the Bene Sence. And uh and uh yeah yeah. When when Up Star Crow came out, were you 'cause of the right way, were you anxious about that or did you see it as a free hit because you didn't know you were ever gonna Do that. I never you're always a bit anxious, but I really don't and I'm sure you're all the same, you can't be thinking how's it gonna go? You've just gotta do it. Well it's not healthy to Yeah. I mean I'm very good at getting in the bar and not thinking about it anymore. Um and you know, I'll have a drink and that's always helpful. Uh well, not for everyone, but for me. I'm an evangelist. If it's a problem I always say, you know, it's not how much you drink, it's what Doug Bruce does to you. You know, if you drink, you know, seven pints a night, but you pay your tax, you you you don't get in fights and you get up and work the next day, then you haven't got a problem. I mean, you might die a bit younger, but so the fuck what? Yeah, you know. Uh but if you drink a teaspoon of sherry and you go out and punch a policeman and you can't give up that teaspoon, you're an alcoholic. So for me it's about you what it does to you, and I've always been a very benign drinker. I don't I don't drink every night anymore. I did for thirty years, but I don't anymore. But I love it still and I hope to die, you know, with a glass of champ or a nice ready man. But um was I worried about upstart crow? No, I never I never worry about because I know that I've had success and I've had failure and in the end, you know, I'm with Kipling. You really do have to treat tri meet triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors. Just the same. And I mean, that has to be about the best piece of advice you you could give to anyone, but certainly an artist. Uh, we've got a question from my mother now on the Voice Note. Um, I say this every time. I don't know what this question is. So let's see. Hi Ben. Uh this is uh Ramesha's mom. Hi. You work so hard. And you have had so much. Success. What keeps you motivated to keep working? When you could retire now. Have a lovely day. Love to meet you one day. Check it. Um delightful question. I mean, she's suggesting you retire. No, she she I mean that's a that's the spin of a of a of a classically cynical millennial, I'm thinking, or are you a late Zed? No, you're a mill you're a Millie, aren't you? No, I'm not I'm not on prem. You're an X. Yeah. You're next the forgotten generation. The ones nobody cares about. Yes. They're coming in their own now because yeah, they're gonna be the enemy soon because my lot are dying far. I mean there's no there's no one in my family between me what my brothers and sister are older, but yeah. Well what a lovely question from your mum and so charmingly put, and I hope we do meet. Um Maybe 'cause I know you do a show together, but maybe I can get on that. Yeah, maybe I could get on that one. Um look, I've always had an ongoing compulsion Compelling, as I say, I don't consider it to be driven, I consider it to be inspired, but I love to write comedy and I and that's what that's what keeps me going. Yes, I I could I don't really know what retirement means. For an artist. If you're fortunate enough and I am an artist and popular, you know, whatever, it sounds a bit highfalutin for a a knobgag merchant from way back. But uh I don't think there is such a thing as retirement because I would have written if I had never made a success of life, I would have tried to you know, submit articles to local paper or something. I don't know, made a fanzine or you know, I'd always written plays for Andram, whatever, which is what I did when I was young. And I'd still do it. And I think if you paint, you're always gonna paint, maybe n people aren't gonna buy it anymore. And a and maybe people won't buy my stuff. I certainly don't sell as big houses as or you know, as I used to. I st audien still comes to see me, but nothing like they did in the late eighties when I was kind of very, very hip for a while. So yeah, I mean what is it that keeps me going? It's a genuine delight. in the thing I've been able to spend my life doing. Uh, you know, d there is no greater fortune, good fortune than your hobby becoming your your v I mean that's your hobby if your hobby's your job, it's a vocation, isn't it? That's what they say. And uh and comedy has been my vocation. Um theater arts. theatre and TV arts. I mean, name your degree course. Uh are my vocation and I've been lucky to spend my life in it and earn a living doing it and yes, a good enough living to be able to stop. And I I I'm certainly not as in you know, the world is comprehensively failing to beat a pass to my door, um, at present, because, you know, I'm old. I'm an old Bluik and you know, even if a commissioner wanted to give me a show on tele, they'd have to think very, very hard because and rightly so, because there's three generations of people wanting those breaks. Wanting those chances. And I had You know, my God more than my fair share. So But I won't stop writing. I mean I'd be very surprised if I got another sitcom, but You never know. But uh that doesn't stop me, you know, pottering about and uh and that and or going back on the road. We Will Rock Here, one of the most successful musicals of all time. Yeah, I mean not in a level of Yeah. Very very, very successful musical. Not not entirely. I never never really cracked it in the States and but yeah, a big success. Great. Do you describe that as that we will rock you the whole thing around as one of the most intense periods of your professional life. Yeah, it was. What was that like to be putting that together? I mean i I mean, y you've we could have talked about this without You know, we haven't talked about your novels and now your musicals. I mean it's incredible the range of of stuff that you've done. But We will rock you, how did that come about and how did that end up being so intense? Well, what a I mean again, again, I mean fantastic good fortune. I mean so you make your own life. And clear, you know, I I I earned a shot at some of the things I'd done because You know, I'd done some work that had worked. But that doesn't stop me being super aware of my good fortune, 'cause I I audition people when I'm directing or whatever, and I am aware of how m it's a cliche, but how much talent is out there, there isn't enough work. For the amount of talent. And considering some of the people getting the work have no talent, that makes it even worse for the talented people. So I am aware that continue. There's there's there's a lot of writers who would love to get the note and deserve it and you know, um it's all sounds like, you know, virtue signaling cliche, but it's bloody true. So although I know I'm quite good at I am good at what I do. I'm not the only one who's good at what I do, and I've had a lot of luck, and one bit of luck. Um Phil, uh I mentioned Phil McIntyre and Paul Roberts, who are kind of my sort of man uh agent promotion company. They one day it was a a c lovely little ploy. Uh one day uh Paul Roberts, he's another one for Preston, uh he rang me up and said, Bang, I can't believe it, I got such amazing news. Uh Queen. Want you to write um a musical with their best hits? I thought bloody hell You said Do you want to meet him? I said, Yes, of course I want to meet. I mean this is Queen. This is w the second for me the second most significant band that ever was, you know? I mean clearly, you know, there's the Beatles and then then you take your choice and it for me it's it's Queen. Uh uh and you know, I love all rock and pop and lots of it and there's there's a tight race, but yeah, Queen. Fuck me. And uh Turned out he then phoned Jim Beach, Queen's manager, to bloke Tom Hollander plays in the movie, and said, Now, Mr Beach, uh you know, I I wondered if he ever thought of making a a musical. You know, I said, Well if he ever were, you know, we look after Ben Alton and he's very he'd look you know. And so those two so I'll meet him, you know. I didn't meet the boy, I say the boys They're older than me, but I didn't meet the band at that point. So you know, Paul sort of tricked me 'cause I'd have gone You know, if he'd said, look, I've pitched you to Queen, I didn't know. Really you know, as if that's as if that's gonna happen. Um but he said, No, they really wanna meet you And of course they didn't But anyway, so Jim did beat me and it was just a bit of good fortune because they had been working Jim particularly been working on a Que musical, but they've been doing it about Freddy's life. And it was a very serious mus music, a lot of about AIDS. The end of the musical is him dying, uh, you know. Why wouldn't he be a Big Queen fan? I mean he's in he's a boomer like like me. Um and Brian and Roger. had gone over. They they're the active members of the band. Of course Fred is gone and and John don't really get out much, you know, but he he keeps an eye on it, but you don't see much of him. I've only met him once. Very nice. We had a nice drink again. Um Brian and Roger had said they don't want it like it's not f we n want something fun, they said. Are we gonna do a queen musical, you know? Want something fun and exuberant like we are, like Freddy was. We don't So um Luckily at that point Paul had pitched a comedian, so the first thing they asked Uh you know, Black Adder and Young I had some you know, they oh they are quite interesting. I mean people British rock stars are quite interested. I mean, I got you know, the Beatles, as you know, if you read the book and and um You know, I nearly wrote a B G's had a lovely time with Bri with um Sabarry and yeah. So it's a Broad. My my body of work coming at the time it did, you know, was good for rock so the young ones was on every tour bus, you know. I mean I'm known in the rock world. Uh, which is great for me because I love rock and pop more than any. I'm married a bass player and uh it's special to me. That's my love is is rock and pop. So the first thing Jim asked me to do was would you like to gag up what we've been working on already? What the one about Freddy Dynamage, which is very, very serious and about the politics of Marginalisation, the gay community or whatever. I said, I don't know. I said, Look, I don't think that's where you should go with a Queen musical. Queen belongs to all of us. You know, I was quite I've always been quite brave. uh fronting things up. And I mean I'm talking to Queen's manager and yeah, I I said, look, this isn't for me. I don't think that's what you should do with the Queen man. I don't think it should be about Freddy. Shouldn't be about the band. It should be the spirit of the band. You want a legend. You want something Arthurian, something grand and pompous and huge. But also with satirical edge and bite and a bit of snark in it. And uh Well that's very good, said if you've got any ideas, get in touch. Uh and I I was working on my Andrew Lloyd Webber musical at the time and directing My m my movie, Maybe Baby, with Hugh Lawrence. So I was busy. Um But a year later I came up with this idea for a sort of matrix world where where music is streamed directly to the consumer from the big corporate entertainment machine. They get it into a handheld device. They're sort of locked into it, mesmerized by it. This was written in nineteen ninety nine, can I tell you, long before the iPhone or indeed the internet re I mean it was there, but yeah, it's pretty prescient as a piece of satire. Anyway, so that's how that came about. I pitch the idea to them. Brian and Roger loved it. It was sent to John because the Queen don't do anything if that's not four votes. Jim Beach and the family have a vote and then the three remaining and and John loved it too? And we were off. And it was wonderful and a very exciting time and I wrote We Will Rock You. And uh I went away. I spent a lot of my life in Australia 'cause my wife's Australian, so I went away and a director was Doing it at the Dominion Theatre and I came back for the dress rehearsal. Very, very excited. Completely not involved, I wasn't directing and asked. Nothing to do with me. I was the writer. In the end, what emerged was I had to kind of take over. Um And I ended up directing the the production and it and and it was a very, very, very tough time. But we did get it on and we got it on to where it's gotten standing ovation and people are loving it. And it was another of those real heavy Uh heavy slaggings. I mean the press night it was a joyful, joyful night, rock and roll, dancing in the aisles. And then the next morning was one of those. It was like the right way. I mean it just a a comprehensive, you know the Daily Mirror said, Oh, I should be shot. I got most of it. They all said they kind of hate Queen, because Queen was going people don't remember. Queen were going through a bit of a, you know, in the turn of the century, Oh, Freddy's gone and they're just a bunch of long haired husbands or whatever. I mean, you know, the music was still there, but You know, it was a bit of a dip. You know, now it seems impossible to imagine that Queen weren't the all conquering, you know, iconic cultural Colossus that they are. But it wasn't like that around that time. And there was a lot of you know, the Daily Again, I didn't read, I quote it to me. In fact, Robert De Niro quoted it to The uh the Telegraph said, I've got a thousand CDs in my collection, and I'm proud to say not one of them is by Queen. So well why are you fucking reviewing? Would I go and see an opera and try and review? Would I go to commentate a football match, I don't know anything about football. You know, it was amazing that there was this kind of pride in well Queen of you know this. But it and they all called it, you know, Freddy Mercury's band. And they're all you know, Freddy all of them said Freddy would be revolving in his grave. They all suddenly know Freddy, unlike Brian and Roger and Jim. and his family. You know. Jim's famil uh Br Freddy's mum wrote to us after the reviews, which were catastrophic. We were gonna close in a week. Everyone was gonna be out of work. It was horrendous. business was cut in half. We'd had this huge first night. Normally that's your best box office day ever, particularly if you've got just Robert Nero, but Noddy Holder from Slade at your opening night. And that that for me was really something special. And a it was a big opening night. But we were our box office died the second next day, 'cause it was a real like radio four, you know, do not give 'em your money timeout, don't give 'em It was a f it was heavy. Uh I don't know why. I saw resentment of success. I don't know what it was. And I got it particularly. You know, as I say, the Daily Mirror said it should be shot. And so we'd got it on against some very difficult circumstances. And then it was sort of looked like it it was gonna be killed at birth, but we kept working and kept working. Queen played the the the Jubilee, her Madge stepped up and gave us a bit of publicity, you know, one queen looking after another, so to speak, and Brian played on the roof and he played live. Imagine that. He played live. I mean, you watch it and imagine he's doing it live with earphones and a bang the entire b band of the Cold Stream guards, like two hundred metres below him. And I did a l I kept working on it and working on it and eventually it became this great hit. But w for a year, people think it was an instant for a year we had what's called the curtaining. Which is what you do with a big auditorium that isn't full. basically drape half of it. So the audience walk in the huge stalls and there's like empty seats and there's this black wall. Oh, it's made of cloth and you walk all the way down and then you go through this wall and then you're into the half auditorium and we had the curtain in for a year. We didn't even have the circle open. But there was you know, it was a hard slog. It was a very difficult slog, but Well the morning after we got the reviews, uh, Jim Beach read a c a hundred people assembled. I mean obviously everyone had years work, people had got their mortgage you know, it was a devastating. And that that thit would've been empty for a yeah. They wouldn't have been able to fill it with anything else. In fact, until Devil's made w where's Prague, they didn't really get another hit. And uh uh um and he read the review from in the N M E, which is the classic sort of we know better than the fans sort of thing. You know, I preferred their earlier work kind of thing. Um and he read it, uh the review of News of the World, the Queen album, uh from seventy eight, um, said uh there they're uh uh uh upon this appalling agrarious, you know, insult of an album. Uh a amongst twelve appalling tracks two stand up as being m worthless and without merit, these are we are the champions and we will rock you. And I'm not saying critics are wrong, but then they often are. And it that's the thing. They they make it as a statement and we re he read it out, but it was Small comfort at the time. I think the problem is is that when something appeals directly to something like yesterday, by the sublime genius, the world the you know, the gift to the twentieth century that is Paul McCartney. And for years he was sneered at because he wasn't rude to people and he didn't you know, John Lennon was mean and nasty and and he wrote you know But but obviously they were both geniuses, together and apart. And they both gave a gift to human their contribution to the sum of human happiness is incalculable. Together and apart, but particularly together. But Paul got it in the neck because he's a nice guy and he d you know, and he write sometimes he just writes something so sweet. T. Defies definition. And and so you get somebody Yeah, Julie Birch was sort of you know, told her the only thirst to imagine is yesterday, you know, it's like, Oh, come on. But something like yesterday is so perfect. And he wrote it in Well he dreamt it, I believe. And And I think if something defies criticism, it is difficult. If you are a critic. If you what are you gonna say about yesterday other than it's Simply sublime, or you could say it's kind of cheesy and obvious. You know what I mean? That's and I think Queen got a lot of that because some people think because something is deeply loved. Who are uncritical in general. That must make it cheesy and somehow worthless. I am a an evangelist for good popular art. Not all popular art is good. But not all Literary art or high art is good either, but it's quite the opposite. Uh and if popular art is generally po generally genuinely popular, it probably is good art. If you wanna see what people critics will be lauding in terms of pop music. look at what was twenty years ahead. Because something like Wham, I remember Wham being sneered at, sublime pop music. Come on, wake me up before you go go, it's a perfect pop song. You know, and yet they were cheesy cr teeny bop. Yeah. Um Thank goodness the single. In a way, one of the very few gifts the Internet's given. I mean it's I wouldn't uninvent the internet if I had a split second, but one good thing about the is that singles have become important again because people can cherry pick tracks. And although I do love a great album. Denigrate the single. That used to how it be, like Led Zeppelin, we don't do singles, you know, we don't we wouldn't go on top of the post. Well, you know, you're a great man, but Slade did singles and so everyone thinks they're just somehow less. Anyway, we've got a long way from wherever it was We started, so I don't quite know. It was a hell of a journey. Yeah, I I I I certainly haven't answered anything. No you have. Okay, so this game is called Misquoted. I'm very excited for you to play. It's misquoted. I'm gonna give you five quotes. Some of them you said, some of them you didn't. Okay, oh yeah, all right. Um All you've got to do is tell me whether you did or you didn't. So you're saying don't go off on one for twenty minutes. No. No? Oh you can go on as long as you like. We we've got an edit. Okay, so you keep saying that. You're supposed to say we love it. No we love it. We do love it, we do love it. No we do love it. We do love it. Okay, here's your first one. Good luck to you. I think I would have been a better writer if I hadn't been so restless. Did you say that or not? Yeah, I it certainly I I I don't think it's very elegantly put, but I think it definitely sums up a kind of feeling that sometimes I've undermined my work by by rushing and and and and thinking of the next thing. Not that I don't work hard, I do, but Yeah, I think I probably might have said that. You did say that to the Times twenty twenty five. Congratulations. I should remember that, but things things are going, yeah. Uh okay. Here's your second one. You're one for one, congratulations. Does it feel good? I'm indifferent. Okay. Thank you for being honest. Okay, here's your next one. As cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Advanced Strategic Cunning at Oxford University. Well, if it is genuine it's me and Richard, no question of that, 'cause it's certainly Black Adder. Um, it might be a sort of COD one because I've spent a life saying, you know, we invented this trope, which you know, a couple of actors are kinda clone crope for, but um but the thing of you're as small as a very small thing that got a degree in being small, you know. So maybe it was a COM, but I'm gonna go for it. I don't remember Black Addis lines. People quote them to me all the time. I'm going back for a bit of rap surprise tonight. I don't remember them, but I think it sounds quite good and I'm gonna claim it for me and Richard. Okay, it's from Blackhead that goes forth, but we slightly we added something to the line and there's a reason. It's cheating. I know. I know it's not a half quote. All right, I'll rework half of it then. Okay. Yeah, you did. Um 'Cause we added advanced strategic. So as the actual quote is as cunning as a fox has just been appointed professor of of cunning at Oxford University. And the reason we did that is because you don't have to pay us anything or something like that? Correct. We don't have to clear it. We don't have to fair deal it. Uh no, it's because You'll sort of know w you you sort of famously Agonised over every word, didn't you? I mean, we do yeah. I I think A as does Richard. Yeah. We agonise, as did PG Woodhouse. That doesn't mean it takes a long time, because you can agonise quite quickly and vigorously and do it often. Um the uh so but yeah, the words are uh I I love I love words the the the to have w a toolbox full of words to have the English language to play with. is a joyful, um a joyful thing. And uh yeah, words mean everything to me. Okay, you're two for two so far. Okay, you're giving me that. You're feeling less yeah, I'm gonna give it two. You're feeling less indifferent? Well you think I sh well yeah. I try from disaster, darling. I'm Kipling on this. All right, here's your next one. We are a breeding sorry. We are breeding a generation of big thumbed hunchbacks. Well, it's something a lot of people have sort of observed. You see sort of cartoons. It's certainly something I've kind of Definitely. I mean you' i if it's a false one, you're you're being clever and naughty 'cause you're kinda writing stuff. Look, honestly, I think it sounds quite like me. I I'm I'm gonna claim it. It probably isn't, but yeah. You did say that. Oh there you go twenty fourteen. Right. Uh in a in a radio interview. So you be so well done that you might say. Um you I mean you're on you' you you've talked you even talked about Do you think your your listeners will indeed viewers will get it. I mean I'm sure they will. Yeah, they'll get they'll get it. But an observation about you know the beginnings of mobile phones. I remember trying to write something for Rick, but you know, in the years just before we die. You know, everyone slurking their phones. Slurking my phones. Ha ha ha. And uh You never got to do it 'cause a baby T wouldn't well have it. Anyway, yeah. But is that something you're you're particularly uh Get be particularly angry about Technology is now self-evidently a genuine existential threat to humanity. I mean clearly with AI, but I felt it with the internet. The ability they say a lie a lie's gone round the world before the truth has put its running shoes on. Well, I mean, the internet round the world twenty ten times. I always knew it wasn't the great democracy. I used to have big fights with Steven about this because, you know, he has this evangelist which is marvelous. It's gonna be like a library in your pocket. And uh and I always knew it was just gonna be a fucking sewer, you know. And uh you know, if you want you can always buy a book, you can look it up and look, I know there are good uh I hate it, Mike. Kids hate me saying it because they have to live with it. You know, there's no going back. I'm not a Luddite. I'm not trying to reinvent, you know, I'm not gonna smash the spinning internet. But uh I I I I believe that the fact that there is no accountability or Legislation to restrain the excesses of technology. is an astonishing ungole on the part of the human race. We we if you have a drug can can literally mesmerise children and adults, but let's say kids, 'cause that's what's important, the future. If you were to invent a drug that will will take people's attention away, will distract them. Forever. You know, well there are such drugs and they're and they are massively prescribed. We see that we must legislate against a drug. can steal childhood. But when it's fucking Steve Jobs going, We got a great new piece of fun tech here, you know, I'm glad he's dead, 'cause he can't keep inventing new versions of the iPhone with different plug sockets that we've got to buy a new plug for. I mean, it sounds cruel, but honestly AI like they admit it themselves. They're gonna it's gonna put everyone out of work. I mean I d I did talk about this on stage, but if you if a terrorist Announced we have a machine. We have developed a machine that will put humanity out of work within ten years, should we choose to use it. MI five and the SAS would be you know, we'd be after them like But because it's a bunch of tech bros in California They're literally admitting. This is gonna destroy jobs. Oh we're all gonna have extra leisure time Oh fucking people like To earn their livings. People like to I'm I I feel very strongly. uh unbridled un un technological innovation is always seen as something that inevitably must be good. Oh, you'd like to be fr cold, would you? You'd like not to have a cure for your Yeah, and we all know there's good stuff. Frankly, I think the balance has been ticked. I think technology should have stopped at the electronic type in terms of communications. The electric typewriter. Very nice. I th maybe word processing stop No, I want to put a computer in my pocket that will perpagate. They're they're buzzing round conspiracy theories on technol this is what oh, m people didn't land on the moon. They're they're pushing their conspiracy theories on technology, which is unimaginably beyond their imagination. I mean Harry Potter would bulk at a machine that you take a picture of your dick and send it round the world To everyone if you're using our big airdrop. This is mind blowing, was it, Asimov said, you know, once when technology gets so sophisticated it's indistinguishable from magic. Well clearly the iPhone is such a thing. Yeah. And yet people as idiots are using it to say, I don't believe in the moon landings. You know, Well don't believe in the phone either. You know? So yeah, I've um I look as I say, I had I had I all I can say is I was I had this opinion when every went When it was all bright and gleaming. But I do know kids have to use it and it is great. Yes, you can some of them It's like cars, you know. But you need to think about this shit. Look, there's there's pros and cons, but I am I am clear in my belief that AI Is And I 'cause we how can you not use it? It's there, oh you're using sat nav, you know, well, you're a hypocrite. I've got to because you can't buy a map anymore. But yeah, I am Very, very um sad. That technology has been allowed to infect our lives in such an unrestrained manner. Okay. Sorry, uh to do with anything that we were doing discussing Yeah Big thumbed hunchbats. Oh yeah so like yeah we're you know we're gonna be Yeah Okay, here's your next one. My life's loves are language and sparkly tailoring. Definitely not me. I love I love um language. I don't love Sparkly Taylor. I don't love any Tailoring, I'm an MS man. In fact, I'm going to use this opportunity to say an idea I've had. I'd like to be an MS model. I've never done an I've never done an advert, but I've always loved MS, right back to when it was St. Michaels in the back of your pants, you know. And I uh I you know, I don't the these uh anyway, all I'm saying is they had take that, you know, as venerable fifty year olds. Now I'm a mid sixties. Yeah and all I'm saying is You know. Yeah. Marks and Spencer's I actually think you'd be a great shout for this. Yeah. I think, you know, sort of old man but you know, still r relatively in shape and that and they they do great What I love about M and S is short leg. I mean, can you bel they do short leg, middle leg and leg That's incredible. I can go into M and S, pull on a pair of jeans, and it fits. I don't have to go, Can you put some pins in and I'll come back tomorrow Which is so boring. You can't walk out of the shop. But M and S short arm short leg that's who I'm f I was gonna call if I did another tour because I'm Um I was gonna call the tour short arm short leg because that's what you can get. in M and S and they they M and S yeah. And you get long arm and long egg leg as well. If you're taller and longer. Makes sense. Okay. I actually I actually think So I I don't think I said that quite. No you didn't. You said language is my love. to the garden in twenty twenty four. Did I then say sparkly suit? No. Oh, right. We added that. Yeah. I would have I can understand language is my but the sparkly suit but no. The sparkly suit was me. It was a conscious decision. I went on s used to go on stage and again this weird thing in the late in the seven seventies and early eighties. Credibility was everything. Constantly Like you play a big theatre. Oh sell out. What? You know, like you know, you should be in the small clubs. Th there was no logic to it. But there was this idea that if you become the left is cursed with this. I'll talk about it in the book, is cursed with a hatred of success. That somehow there's something sort of grubby. about doing well. Yeah. It must mean that in some way you're not no longer caring about anyone else. Now, 'cause I've had it all my life, 'cause I've been pretty successful and I've always been fairly verbose about my social conscience I suppose, and you know people might think, you know, fuck you, but I I say what I think and you can think what you think. We used to go on stage and everyone would go on stage like looking like they didn't care. Like you go on a t-shirt and jeans because like you didn't want to be Tarby, you didn't want to be Bernard Manning, you didn't want to be one of those seventies suited glitteries, you know, because that was like, you know, that was the man. So, you know, and all incidentally almost all those comics from the Z were working class, you know? Because actually working they they don't celebrate I mean, the class things changed a lot, but in those days, you know. They don't celebrate looking poor. The whole idea was to try and not look poor. So you know, you had great fashion amongst working club kids, the mods. the the Teds, you know, uh it was only middle class kids like me that wanted to look like tramps, you know, in our great coats and our T shirts. Well we were all middle class. Or most of us were Lexi, wasn't it? Interesting. You know, uh but So yeah, so it's this idea you went on stage jeans and a T shirt. Well of course you go on stage looking like a student and you're treated like a student. Fuck off you I'm not gonna use the C word, because I personally fought a battle against that and I'm sticking with it. Um You know, you'd hear a lot of that. And I thought, Well I'll get a suit. I'll try and look like a comic. Uh, but I want to admit I'm not gonna pretend I'm like sharp or sexy. I've never had any any any illusions about Looking good or say or being cool. I know I'm not cool. I'm enthusiastic. But I've never been cool. Enthusiasm is not cool. So if you're enthusiastic, look at Paul McCartney, you know, the But everybody w Ah, it's rubbish, I don't even want no I did it, you know. So you go, Yeah, it's the greatest thing I've ever done. Hey, hey. You know, that that's not cool. Even if you are a genius. Um, so anyway, I decided I'd get a suit but I'd make it sparkly so that everyone would know I wasn't pretending I was cool or anything, I was a farty. I'm celebrating my dickheadness by wearing a silly sparkly suit. And that's why I wore a spar I have no affection for tailoring or sparkliness. Okay, good to know. In fact, glitter is made of plastic. And I do think they should tone it down on the Pride Marches because all those microplastics with all the fucking glitter. Then I'm being called a Kill joy. Yeah. Well that's just that's one of my problems with pride. Okay, here's here's your here's your last one. I have always policed my own work. But you get interviewed and the I mean it's it's It's sort of I think I possibly did say, but I'm hoping I didn't. Well he did say it. Oh. On the Louis Threw podcast. But it was actually it might make you feel better in the dying for a wee for about half an hour. Yeah, anyway, can you well actually that bit of context helps. But uh you w when you're talking about cancel culture and how people always want you to talk about The fact that you can't say I mean I get asked this a lot. Comedians now they wanna always ask comedians How do you feel about cancel culture and the fact you can't say what you think and it's obviously bollocks, but every time. Yeah, so I would have said, Okay, I I exercise self censorship, I'm that's my answer. I d uh you know, I will say Well, I I will stand in my truth, as young people say. And as my wife added, and you are up to your neck in it. Uh and uh I'm uh so yeah, I I think I'm g given a chance, I'd put it slightly better. No, I don't censor myself on stage, beyond my own. Personal morality. If you don't think something is actually funny and worthy of you, don't say it. And that's about and you know, you could if you were if you're a racist you you might you then then then that'll be your truth. But I I believe I am a l of liberal conscious I don't as what is called punch down. And so I'm pretty I feel I'm as Shakespeare said long before the term standing in your truth was said. Armed strong in honesty. I'm getting more pumpers every moment. Um Ben, it's been amazing to have you on and I know I I know I said to you we can edit your answers' been fantastic, so thank you very much. You're genuinely a legend. Um we we try and get something viral from every guest. Uh Is there anything that you can tell us that you've never said publicly before, I guess, is that so hard. I mean I'm sixty six, man. I mean there's very little I haven't said, you know. Um Yeah, I'm on the spot. You'd have to I'd have to I'd I don't I don't lie. I mean one thing I can honestly say is I've never said anything in an interview or on a page that I didn't think was was what I wanted to I wasn't I've never tried to manipulate anyone by, you know, oh he wants to hear this or they want to hear that. And it's got me into trouble sometimes and made me sound pious, um, apparently sometimes and um I've ever I've said everything a a lot over the years, and I don't think I do have it I often find I've got more to say when I'm asked a question. But if you ask me. You know, what did you really what would you really like to say? I'd say I've been saying it all my life. I've been so whatever whatever it is I really want to say I said it. Yeah. And I all the time from my the first word I wrote. particularly with my stand up. That's the thing about stand up. It's such a beautiful, which I hated at first, but I came to love. Because it's subjective art. most of my work is kind of objective. You're putting lines in people's mouth mouths, you're you're writing a s n a novel which is a story, so you're coming at it from a lot of different directions. But but but the Stand up is the nitty gritty of again, a phrase often used, who I am. It's who I am. Yeah. Um so yeah, I there's nothing I've been dying to say because I if I'm dying to say it, I say it. And too much. There there is one final thing that we'd like to give you the opportunity to say. M and S are big fans of the podcast. Is there anything you'd like to do? I'm not entirely well dressed for it. I could do I could send you photos. Um I my suits are are uh M and S. My g I I I could show you. Um yeah. I think it's time they they got some old, um rattled old alternative comics on, you know, never mind take that. You know, yes. If you need a model I'm here. Ben Elton, everybody! Thank you so much for watching this episode of the Romish Ranganathan show. I've been told that some of you are watching this, enjoying it, wallowing in it, but you still haven't subscribed. That's mad behavior. You're gonna miss episodes. Very silly. So follow and subscribe to the Romishwang and Nathan show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcast. We drop new episodes every Monday and Thursday. On Monday I'm here with amazing guests talking about their career, what they're up to, having a laugh with them, and then on Thursdays I'm joined by my mum, widely regarded as the audience's favourite Ranganathan. We answer your questions, your stories, and your family dilemmas. So I'll see you on Thursday when I'm back here with my mum, Shanti. Send your questions and stories to podcastrangabee.com, voice note or text on 07731-623-355. We genuinely love hearing from you. and there's a good chance you hear yourself on the show. See you next time.