Future of the Labour Cabinet

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Join me, Gabriel Pogan from the Sunday Times for a wild ride through the worlds of politics, crypto, and crime It's in our new podcast series, Post George, the Criminal behind Farraage. Search for Post George The Times wherever you get your podcasts I'm Ed Visey and this is a live recording on Times Radio of the Times podcast, The State of it. Over the next thirty minutes or so, we're going to tell you everything you need to know about the result of the Makerfield B election, what it means for Kir Starmer, what it means for Andy Burnham, what it means for Nigel Farage and the country. I am here with two heavyweights from the State of it Times pololitical editor, Stehven Swinford, welcome to the show deellighted to be here Sunday Times Deputy Political editor Laara Spirit, welcome to the show. Hired Steve, let's start with you. How many supernatives do you want to use to describe the result of this? Oho is won. It is an extraordinary result. And it's extraordinary because Andy well labour should not have won here. If you look at six weeks ago at the local elections, reform swept the board there. They decimated labour in this seat and you've had, I think a twenty three point swing from reform to labour, which is just extraordinary. And that is because of Andy Burnham and the campaign he's won and he is the difference maker there. And that is a lot of Labor and P are saying that they are saying that is why he needs to be our Prime Minister. I mean, can you outsupern itative, Steve? I think one thing in life is absolutely sure, which is that I'm not capable of assu Steve. But obviously he's completely right and it is absolutely extraordinary for those who are supportive of Burnham this morning. I think in recent days, especially speaking to some people in reform, there's been a sense of o You know, are you being a slightly credulous journalist by just assuming that Andy Bernham might win actually the polling we're seeing privately suggested it might well be even more close. You know, One was semi ridiculing me for having published a poll which showed that Berham was eleven points ahead, basically suggesting there'd be egg on our faces and actually he's sort of outperformed the expectations. But I mean, from their perspective It's quite interesting. I I think they think that there's a get ar route vote that they've capitalised on, and also which in this instance, Andy Burnham has capitalised on too. And that's kind of their case to why this might not be as catastrophic as some people think it is. Yeah, there's so much going on in my head about this, but one of the things I mean I fully expected Andy Berham to lose. And in that sense, Steve, he has defied political gravity because all the rules say You know, you walk away from your job as mayor, you call a by election explicitly with the purpose of becoming Prime Minister not to represent your constituents. You call a by election where voters basically get a free hit And yet you still prevail. It is impressive. That's because he campaigned on the basis of let's call it, it's change Labour. And what that actually means is change the prrime Minister. He ran an anti establishment anti prrime Minister campaign And that was very successful. And in strange ways, there are echoes of where reform had their success During the local elections, vote reform gets ararmmer out. Well this is actually a case of very literally Vote Burnham gets Starmer out. And that had appeals. So what he tapped into was the wider dissatisfaction in Makeerfield with the state of politics more broadly and specifically Kia Starmer and his premiership And that is why he is now odds on to be Prime Mister. I mean it feels increasingly inevitable. I don't want to confuse the sort of timeline and bring in Aberdeen. but the things that I thought this morning when I wakeke up was first of all, this feels like the the morning after a general election. It feels like, you know, we've just elected a new prime minister The other odd thing is the two establishment parties almost overnight have become Lara the anti establishment parties. Yeah. I mean it's very interesting. and I think if the story after the May local elections was the kind of great fragmentation of British politics and the idea that firstirst Pass suppose would buckle under its weight, actually obviously what we saw last night was the complete opposite, which was actually two establishment parties doing very well Obviously I keep saying Andy Burnen will be the next prrime Minister, but people talk about a process And indeed, we've just heard from somebody who may be involved in that process. He's called Sakir Starmer. He's the prime Minister. He says he will stand in a labour leadership contest should one be triggered after Andy Berham returns to West Wind, adding he will not walk away It's Sounds completely crazy, Steve, but Could there be a sort of civil war I mean he is determined not to go. What we need to do is just put listeners in the mindset of Kirst Starmer for a minute. And Kirst Stahmer is furious. He thinks that what Andy Burnham is doing is unforgivable. He feels betrayed by it. And worse than that, he feels that this is profoundly undemocratic, that it's effectively a coup.'ve got a guy you on the back of a by election. It's just a by election is potentially going to walk into number ten and he is determined to stop a coronation at all costs. He wants to push this to a leadership contest and that is what Andy Burnham is trying desperately to avoid. They really don't want the contest because if it turns into a contest, it turns into a very long, hot and ugly summer. You know, we've been here before. we've played this game with the Tories many times. very long brutal leadership contest. The party turns in on itself and you know arguably no one is any of the wiser at the end of it. So that's where Burners. But then from Starmer's point of view We don't his people argue, we don't know. about Andy Burnham And I think that is broadly correct. We know some things, but what are his tax policies? what are his welfare policies? what are his defence policies? I don't know. And I've interviewed the guy. I've sat with him and he was very courteous and a good speaker, but obviously he's campaigning for by election. He's not campaigning for the premiership. And there is something just last I will add on this, something slightly surreal and wonderful about this morning potentially had the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom kind of unveiled, standing alongside Count Binface and a man dressed as a fox who had just done a long monologue about animal cruelty and animal rights issues. That is a very British moment, but in many other ways, this is a very unbritish moment because it is the normal kind of democratic expectations of a leadership contest and all of that at the moment Andy Ben was trying to avoid those and Star was saying, you donre going have to fight me Steve, you and I are very much on the same page because I did read twweet photograph of Andy Burnhams which had the tag, you know, never let it be said that Britain is not the greatest democracy in the world. But you talked about let's get into the head of Kistst and let's hear what he actually had to say to see if we can gauge his mood I do nott think that iss a good thing for the country to plunge us into chaos. I would also add that now that Andy is won, which is really important, really good, he is a huge asset to us, then now will inevitably be a Manchester Mayalty by election starting straight away. It is important that we pull together for that. But if there is a contest, just to be clear with you Then yes, I will run. I will stand, and I've said repeatedly, I'm not going to walk away from that Yeah, I mean I think what Steve was saying earlier. I mean, he sounds extremely sincere there, Laara. And I also think what's interesting is He's taken refuge in process. He's sort of becoming his right hand man, Steve Reid, the cabinet minister was on Tim's reallyia Breakfast talking about, we've got to deal with the Maryland election now. So it's clearly Keirstar is labouring perhaps under the illusion, perhaps' putting words people' mouths, that he can kind of put it off for five weeks while they get the mayor election done. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that those around Berham think that is like a completely absurd case. and point to the fact that Berham, I'm told is already having fundraising meetings to help with that. mayor campaign he will be committed to that, but the idea that that in some wayays stands in the way of Kiz Ammer looking at this talking to Andy Bernam, which of course they hope he will do and coming up with some sort of time frame in which there might be able to be an orderly transition, I think in their minds is insane. They think this premiership is already dead. I mean, they think it's insane when he stands up and says things like this. I think that's why Over the course of this weekend, you'll see a number of people try on behalf of Burnham to get through to Starmer. They're a bit worried because they think Starmer's in something of a bunker. They think he's surrounded by a small group of people that he actually truly listens to. And in that small group of people, there isn't enough diversity of thought to bring Starmer to a position that they think would be able to give him a quote dignified exit. que orderly transition. That is, as you've heard in the words of Kis Aama that, just not where the Prime Minister is at all at this point Yeah, it's a sort of potentially a nightmare scenario, Stephven, isn' it? Because I mean, what do they do? I mean They do want to tell the Pime Minister to wake up and smell the coffee He's entitled to stand in the election, it sounds like he just hasn't got the message. I mean It's a process my therap course this matters in politics, right? And if Stahmer wants to fight this, he can. do we get Cabinet resignations? We O is two point zero. We may well do. but one of the most crucial events of this weekend is at some point, Andy Burnham is going to talk to Kir Stalmer And there Laura has some more detail on this, but there are suggestions that Andy is going to come to any meeting they do have they do have face to face on Monday or they talk over the weekend with a list. And on that list will be the names of at least ATMPs who would nominate him for the leadership probably a lot more And the whole purpose of this is not to them say, hold this list aloft and say, I'm triggering the contest now, Prime Minister, you know I'm coming for you. It is to say I have the support. I could trigger a contest and to put pressure on Stalma. And that is the window that we are in for the next seventy two hours. They are going to try to exert maximum pressure. So those names matter and we think you've got a couple of num you've heard on that. So I mean, they think they've already got the requisite names R And The news stateman reported last night that they're going to try and get even more over the course they want to get to something like two hundred. Yes. But there will also be people I'm told that will be going to Starma this weekend. so donors, crucially, trade union leaders, grandies, the sort of grey haired, as it was put to me, respected members of the party who they think Starma might well The men gy suits. They're stealing all the Tory's clothes And I think they hope that that sort of kind of motley crew will be able to help Starmer come to a position. I think we should say as well that after the may loocal elections, Starmer was in a rut. Of course, he was as defiant as we're hearing him today. But he was seeking counsel. You know we' reported he'd spoken to Tony Blair that Tonylair had told him to fight on. He'd also spoken to Gordon Brown deruring that perod as well And Andne was reaching out to others in his kind of wider circle of trust. So I think for those inside the Berham camp to say that this is somebody who's completely not listening, I think he will be trying to take counsel from other people. And you know Steve has said this on the podcast before, but all the kind of bravado and the language of, I'm fighting this, I'm fighting this has to be said until it doesn't Well, we're all very excited by what is going on and let's not lose sight of what's going on with the opposition Reform UK, it could be said this result is a bit of a damp scoop for them. Shall we hear what Nigel Farage to say about it As for the reform vote share, well, I thought we got eighteen thousand votes. We got just shy of sixteen, so I'm disappointed by that, no question about it. But I would say this, there's a couple of thousand voters there who would normally have gone out and voted reform, that voted restore. and I would say directly to them, what do you want? We are the challenger party to the left in this country and I would urge you to think Again, I really, really would. It's a sort of fascinating response, I thought there from Nigel Farage because he chooses to focus on restore. I mean, I said earlier that Labour was stealing toory clothes Now reform finds itself in a battle with the right, the even further right. It's very clear from that response that Nigel Rarj is very worried about Rore's impact on the reform vote They're concerned and their tune has changed significantly And it is obviously eating into reforms voe. and that is a problem. If you're being outflanked on your right Let's not forget that the resurgence of the Tories under Kemmy Bayenock is that that result is significant in Scotland. So there has been a disparity which I'm sure you are more than familiar with Ed between. she is becoming increasingly popular. The Tory brand is still rock bottom. It is you know down there on seventeen percent with the greens, not to be rude about it, but but it is. The question is will there come a point where her appeal starts to translate to the Conservative partarty more broadly. But either way, the right is very split right now And if you are Nigel Farge and you are wanting an outright majority, you've got all this money, huge amounts of money pouring in and you're not getting the results. And there are some fundamental issues there, right? I mean, They chose the wrong candidate.ike why would you choose a guy when you know presumably his Twitter track record could have been deleted just before the content? who said some pretty unsavourory things in the past, right? Yeah I mean, having sat in on you know focus groups with women talking about the previous comments, I think it was clear that that definitely did play something of a role. And actually talking to Lukeal from M in Common, it was a kind of broader set of concerns as well that they had about Robert Kyan, they just simply weren't that impressed with him as a candidate. So I think there'll be questions asked about that as well. And actually here, obviously restore didn't get in the way of reform winning that vote, right? Like Andy Burnham did just win so convincingly in this particular seat that it's not quite as potent a challenge, but it is clear listening to that Nigel Farge is, mean he al sounded slightly irrated with those people that had vot voted hundred percent story There was definitely not a sense of I was going to come out and win these back in a kind of friendly way. It was much more of a what do you think you're doing? It does play into this schism in reform itself. this massive debate about the dual identity of the party, that it was an insurgent party and it viewed itself as that and marked itself as that And there are concerns and people at ZiaU have expressed them very publicly that Bringing in the Tory retreads as they were termed by him and others at the time was not a good thing. And they're here now So Robert Jennerx, all these people are here And that is kind of the concern that some in reform have is that changed the identity of the party, it made them look more establishment. in a bid to make themselves more potentially electorually palatable and economic policy in other terms There is possibly a price for that. Talking to some people in forform this morning, They're saying, it's not a case of look, this is obviously not great. We did you know there are privately admissions. they got the candidate wrong Privately, you know, also they can concede that Burnen was a very difficult fight for them perhaps more broadly don't want to change their strategy entirely because they have still been leading all the polls and like, you know 's because we're not used to them haven't been very used to seeing them perform not as well as expected, right? whichich quite clearly and he's't used to that It's a change in the narrative and the thing for him he needs to do and they would need to do is keep the momentum or regain the momentum is probably how itard best put it. And that that is challenging Laur Where do the Tories go from here? have they got I mean they have got something to cling on to. It's the first by election of victory in my lifetime in Scotland? Yeah, no, I mean exactly. and on an issue that they have campaigned on and led on in a way which has been very focused for quite some time. I mean, this is something you heard in Deputy Prime Minister's questions this week questioning on energy policy. and it is, let's remember are really It will be a really key debate that Andy Bham has if he becomes Prime Mister. I mean they want to look at some of these things anew. There will be questions in the Labour Coalition about whether or not this will cause a split. And I think the Tories, as far as they can focus on oil and gas, will be feeling really, really confident about this. Every morning throughout the World Cup, the game, football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times will bring you your essential daily briefing We'll hear from our reporters inside the England and Scotland camps bringing you the big news first. We've got reporters covering the best of the rest and following all the biggest stories From FIFA banning water to Donald Trump coming on as a sub against Paraguay. Okay, maybe not the last bit, but who knows? So join the game for the biggest show on earth. Find the game wherever you get your podcasts. Well let's go back to Andy Burnham. We've talked a bit about the process and so on, but I think we are all agreed. that he will at some point become Prime Minister and however bloody that What does Andy Burnham do as Prime Minister Steve you've interviewed him? He's very nice. we know the great joke about Andy Burnham, a manalks in Corbnite a whatever a Millibandite and a Starwite walk into a bar and the Barman says what will you be having Andy Does Andy Burnham stand for anything? All this stuff gets trickled out and he's got these three high powered economic advisers on. Is there anything approaching a manifesto? U undeniably he iss going to pull the Labour Party left, right? His central pitch is I want to end forty years of neoliberalism. to us in plain English, he's talking about fascism. and that involves some kind of public control of the energy companies. It probably involves tax rises of some form on wealth and assets. I think whoever is Primeinister Chancellor come, the next budget is going to be raising taxes. These defence spending needs to be paid for. The most significant things is actually when you stand back from this election campaign, there were two things Andy Burnham didn't say them, his spokespeople did One, he will follow the fiscal rules and in following knows what they are willly that greatly narrows what he can do. So that does mean tax rises of some form are likely. And two, he has ruled out an early election because he thinks presumably that he's got three years to try to change the course here But there is very relelatively little, we know beyond that. When I interviewed him, we were talking about a kind of ten year investment plan where you'd have as part of all public investment some kind of social waiting. but it was quite unclear as to the specifics of what that meant. And that is fair enough in a by election. Right, That is completely fair enough We are not in that territory anymore. So there are huge questions about his agenda which taxes he would raise, where he would go, and we don't have the answers at the moment. And it's not just me, journalists are asking this, voters are going to be asking this. The markets are asking this question, right? They are very, very sensitive. They announced this announcement last night theyreet Richard Hughes, the former chairman of the OBR, who had to quit after the OBR leaked the entire budget. He's gone in to advise Andy Boh and they're trying to kind of shore up the kind of fiscal credibility side biggest concern out there, I think that I'm picking up is Even from some of his supporters is we're not really sure what Andy stands for, and that's a potential problem Yeah, I mean, calming the markets is the first job of Andy Berham Prime Minister, but he hasn't talked about economic growth at all It's interesting. I mean, I think we'll hear more about all of this when he comes down to Westminster. The early challenges that he will face, of course, will be around things like the Defence invvestment plan. These kind of bigger questions. The government still, let's be clear, wants to get that done before the NATO summit. and when you speak to people around Berham, they do concede that they're happy with the Prime Minister still being in place in time for the NATO summit in a few weeks. So I think they've conceded that he's still going to be there in the very immediate term. So I think if they do manage to get that through, it will be a decision for Berham whether or not he wants to reopen that You know if indeed, as we would expect he bring in a new team, would they be comfortable with that settlement or not? I mean, there were all of these questions. And as knowve Steve implies, there is a kind of core economic philosophy which will probably guide him in some way. You can look at people around him, like Louise Haig, for example, one of his closest advisors has run the campaign alongside Analise Midgeley up in Makerfield you know, she's written before about, you know, looking at like longer term investment positions and plans, for example, when you speak to people around Burnham, they always use this language of's creat he wants to be creative with the economy. He's keen to do things differently, which obviously isn't super specific. But I think I want to be creative with my economy. Do you? Butage more I mean that's perhaps being unfair. I more think what they mean by that is We will try and look at new solutions to things and you they think there are possible solutions to problems that the existing group of politicians that are in charge haven't necessarily thought of or taken seriously enough, and I think that's what they'll look at I'd like to talk about the personalities around Burnham in a minute, but I wanted to pick up on what Lara said about the defefence invvestment plan. I mean that's the point you there. you combine your point, Steve. He's sticking to the physcical rules And then you add in the fact that, you know there's only a finite amount of money and there are massively competing spending priorities. Does Do Andy Burnham strike you as the man who's going to make the tough choices, frankly that Keer Starmer would never make, which is his undoing to say to his chancellor and his cabinet. This is the priority Make the savings where you can. Some of them will be wildly unpopular with the electorate who just sent me to Downing Street to transform British politics, but reality is going to hit him in the face very quickly I mean, his whole pitch is about protecting less wealthy pooorer households, right? H whole pitch is about effectly a redistribution pitch almost on that. So when we talked about benefits with him, he said What I want to do is encourage people to get back to work and like more support to help people get back to work over a long period. What he was opposed to was what he called crude cuts to benefits. So in this cl creative But what he doesn't want is, you the Tories and reform are proposing very drastic cuts to benefits, and you're definitely not going to see that. other choices, he could presumably do some particular on taxes on wealth to raise money. I would expect that that is an area maybe capapital gains tax. M he's talked about kind of almost quite revolutionary stuff on overhauling cououncil tax and introducing a much broader land tax That is the direction of travel from his thinking that you can see over time, whether he does that now. I mean, the weird thing about this by election campaign is you'd get someone go up and interview him and he'd start You know, he'd give a general, Yeah, I've always said that cououncil tax evvaluation needs to happen and We should look at a land tax. It would suddenly be the splash of the FT. The markets would be going absolutely mental. and then it would all have to calm down again and he have to clarify or willp be women I'm sympathic with their calls. That suddenly led to concerns that there was going to be a massive settlement there and then they had to clarify. So that is a level of scrutiny that he is just not used to. But it's huge questions about what he's going to do and who are his key people in those jobs now Exactly, and that's a great moment to talk about them. because I always say the difference between Boris as mayor and Boris as Prime minister is if you're the mayor and you're directly elected, there is no threat against you. So you can appoint the best people without worrying they might take your job Andy Burnham will have to appoint a cabinet which will be full of people potentially say, Well actually I could do this job in a few years time. It's a very different role a sort of first among equals role But he'll also have his advis. I've seen so many names. I'm not an insideer. I've seen Jim O'Neill as an economic advisor. I've even seen the name Sue Greay. You mentioned two people, Lara, two MPs who are central to Andy Burnham who are they and who are the others? So Louise Haig and Annalise Midchley, so they been kind they've been jointly running Andy Burnham's campaign in Makefield. They're the kind of so called Northern queens of this campaign. Louise Hagig, of course, former transrport seecretary and Annalise Midchley, a kind of key MP who has been something of a rising star and particularly one of those MPs You may not necessarily have heard a great deal about her in public, but when you speak to labour MPs, they will always mention her as a key power broker. I S some people thought she was sort of behind the welfare rebellion. McSweene McSweeney. I mean I think the welfare rebellion is a really key thing to pause on actually, because to Steve's point about crude cuts That is one of the key things that they want to impress upon people, which is essentially it's not that these people around Burnham are completely opposed to cutting welfare or having welfare reform. They just think that the way the Stalmmer government did this, . e cut having a kind of crude cut pip in order to fund something else, they're saying, only by a real stretch of the imagination, can you truly call that reform? You're not actually reforming the system there they would say're actually making cut It was seen as this kind of tetemic rejection in the Labour Party of any kind of welfare reform in perpetuity. They want to say, actually that's different and they are open to reform. So I think those individuals are obviously very important. You've got Kevin Lee, theseese are other people who've been around Burnham since Manchester days who are in his kind of inner circle. You've got Grace Pritchard, who's his communications director, who's the kind of first big hire. He's already taken her on He heading down to she was previously worked for Ed Minibaband. Oh. we talk about Ed? Y come on. talk about. Why are we leaving Ed till last? I thought about Ed on my dog walk this morning. So Ed a lot of time on this podcast. I spend a lot of time thinking, talking about Ed. Ed, I was told by a number of people yesterday, arrived at about four PM the campaign centre in Makerfield, and I think some of those who are supportive of Burnham felt that perhaps his efforts to knock on doors were perhaps not quite as enthusiastic as perhaps some of the others who have been there day in day out, but he is of course at the centre of this big question, which of course is and I think to this point of what is Andy Burnham's economic philophy, the answer that will be who is his Chancellor And that will be the big signal to people about the kind of government that Andy Burnham wants to lead both economically and also just wider. Ed Milliband I think believed that he was an ne cert for that job. I don't think that that is actually necessarily true. There's been some real concerns among some around Andy Burnham about what a Miliband Chancellorship look like One is a personality question. they don't like the way that he has, in their view told people that he might be in line for this job. and they also don't like this assumption that he is somehow the reason why Burnham has been allowed to stand in Makerfield or could well reach the top job. They feel that has perhaps been overstated. That's the first point. The second point is that they feel that Ed Milliband would restrict Burnham's ability to be flexible on key issues, particularly net zero, on which they worry that any timee they did something, he'd be on resignation watch, it would be a big problem. It's still not clear who's going to get that top job. They wanted it. someome people around Burnham, some senior advisors to go to Shabana Mammud. She made it clear that she was quite keen to stay as home seecretary.' worth She will be his home secretary. That's where we've got to I mean, may not be right, but from this morning Do you have like a whiteboard with post it ls that you? No, we just try to keep on the edge of our brain. We think Shabanah Mahouud will stay on his h home section, which we can come to in a minute is interestue in its own right, but that just leaves this question of who the chancellor. And that is the big question. Steve will have his master whiteboard. They are insisting that up in Makefield, they don't have a kind of master board where they've got all these kind of names that there They're looking at, but that you know failing Shibana and in circumstances where Ed Milibbama deemed to be perhaps an inaropriate pick, there would be other names in the hat, pererhaps someone like John Heley, for example. But I think at this point we really don't know. But that's very interesting on Shabanah Mahmouud staying as homeome seecretary, which is of course something she'd impressed upon these advisors when they'd come knocking she cares so much about her immigration reforms that I think she's very keen to see those. She believes they're key to Labour's future. Yeah. She sees that as, you know, one of the things that she was Very successful art was convincing all her people behind the scenes both Burnham and Streeting to abandon her reforms. and there was this massive change during the campaign from Burnham who Before this campaign was very hostile publicly to some of her reforms, particularly the indefinitelyave Tain stuff where they're making it harder for people to claim indefinitely to remain And then suddenly during the campaign, he was actually on board with that and said Shiban is doing a good job. And that was because it is a key flank with reform and it's one they actually do need a kind of tough migration policy. She wants to protect that. Yeah. I think she' impressed upon these advisers during the course of these conversations that actually seeing that she felt that Pats Burnham had learnnt that lesson from Makerfield as well, that actually, you know, campaigning in Makerfield had taught him the importance of these reforms and she she was feeling more confident that that was something that he was happy to go forward with I mean, she's an incredibly impressive performer San. I think I feel like when I have these tech conversations I wait for somebody to mention AI and when we have these conversations, I'm waiting for one of you to mention W' Streeting What's going what are you going to do with Wiz So Does he have the numbers is the main Wes question? R? I'm kind of assuming he's not it's a coronation, So Andy Berham's people say he doesn't have the numbers to mount a challenge. Kis Tharas people says he doesn't have the numbers to mount a challenge. W Streeting says he does have the numbers to mount a challenge. And that is the question. Yeah, I mean crucially, some of Berham's people this morning saying actually they've had conversations with people were on Wed Streetings's list of numbers but who are saying actually I want to change to Burnham now. Which is interesting. And I mean, they never believed what's worth that where Streeting had the numbers. And that will forever be a classic, you know, can you prove it? canan you not prove? a contest, right? He wants the battle of ideas. believe that. He wants a contest. He wants at the very least, the platform to make his case. He views himself as the underdog. He wants a chance to fight for this And you may not get that because we've discussed there ass a coronation potentially. But look, again, just to circle back to Kissed armor for a moment Do not underestimate his state of mind. As I was talking to a cabinet minister this morning and they were saying feel like we're going to have to drag him out with his fingernails on the threshold. just drag him out the building and you're going to get into This next seventy two hours this week. that whole pressure that goes back to Gordon Brown when he was accused of squatting in number ten E day got more and more challenging during the kind of very difficult coalition talks, right? And then eventually it fell away. but this could go on for some Do you remember that went on for ages, right? Many books have been written about it. This could go on for longer, right? If Starma wants to fight this He can and for all these people saying maybe he'll just see reason. He' kissed armor and He's the hard bastard of the football pitch as he terms it and Patrick and Gablel wrote it in his book, right? He considers himself a tough guy who wins and whenin his backs in the corner. So This could go on for ages. I mean, you're making my head hurt Steve because if Kir Stalmer chooes to stand there's a leadiship contest, then there is a case for saying if Web Streeting can get the numbers, he wants a platform. But for me, it just seems so obvious that if you were Web Streeting you would quietly sidle up to Andy Burnham and say Give me a job And I will back you. Because you're not you're going to lose to Andy Burnham. Yeah So Do you then go into the outer wilderness and become a sort of Hesseltine figure, orr do you just go to them and say, I could be your chancellor. And you still you know The Lara Steve Nexus has still not told me who the chancell is going to be. No, I know. And that's because I'm trying to lead you to a we streeting Chancellor. You do not know at this state, right? whether whether streeting they'll strong armban. Is that a possibility? this morning Do you think W? was some this morning about Wes treeting and they said it wasn't likely I think that there were no Wes did a speech this week about progressive capitalism which he took various shots at Andy Burnham and his prognosis of forty years neoliberalism being the problem and even said the bond markets are not the bond villains, which was a direct jibe at Andy Burnham. So The reason Streeting might want a contest is because it gives him a platform and it increases his currency. If you are a leadership rival, then at the end of that, you've got you know, you've taken it to the edge and you can say, well, actually you could potentially bargain for a better position in a future government. Remember what it did for Kemmy Babenork in twenty seventeen? Yeah. I mean that was Do you remember she imed? No I don't.' good You've outnurded me. just rem I just rememember that She was she was she was a real underdog and it wasn't necessarily that