Political Consequences and Future Scrutiny

Welcome to this bonus edition of The State of It. I am here with one of our former hosts, Gabriel Poggrand, who has actually moved on to Bger and B thingsings arguably, he is now editor of Insight and has this week produced a quite extraordinary story about Nigel Farge and some benefits in kind he has received from a convicted fraudster called George Cultral Do you want to just start by? I mean this looks like a hell of a lot of work has gone into this with you and your team? Well, yeah, let me begin by saying that I genuinely really miss seeing you and Patrick and Lara in the studio. and I also miss the rhythm of my life where I used to get to do things every week. Part of the concept of insight is that we dedicate lots of time and resource to an occasional big bomb. And I guess one hopes it's worth it by the time you get there, but We did feel leaving the office on Saturday that we had nothing left to give and It seems like the story is done reasonably well the podcast Post George as well is available to listen to. But the thrust of the story relates as you said, to this guy George Cottrll, who is Very colorful. character. He's an aristocrat, he grew up in the Caribbean in Mique boarding school in Worcestershire and then was expelled for gam related activity and responded to that setback by Going into the bit of Mayfairware Arab, Russian, British money mingles in hotel lobbies and clubs and he essentially became very proficient at moving money around the world, learened a lot about the highways and byways of with slightly grayer areas of international finance and that led him to Do something that, I guess would catch up with him in due course for reasons I explain He went ono Dot Web and posed under an alias offered to launder money for a drug trafficking syndicate He thenen went to meet the drug traffickers at a hotel in Las Vegas then told him that he would happily wasash twenty thousand dollars of ill gotten games And that George Cotrll thought was that and he goes into the world of not reform, but it's f runner or at least the fore runner to the fore rununner before we reform me the Brexit partarty and before that There was UKip and Cotchw becomes a figure in UKI, he becomes a sort of He's a volunteer. I think he became connected because his uncle via marriage has u Lord Heskth the one motor racing entrepreneur and a hereditary peer who switched to UKIip. And through that he basically becomes a sort of super volunteer in UKIip. He has this reputation for being the quintessential Fage whisperer. He knows Bter than anybody when Nge needs a cigarette or a pint or a moment's pause, he's article that chair from under his table when he's getting to a place. He is just The person who understands Nigel on an intuitive emotional, political, personal level and responded to with a series of very serious promotions for the young man nicknamed Post George at a tender age. He became deputy treasurer of UK and Lor Chief of Staff. And he was there with Faraj cheeap by jl on a referendum night in twenty sixteen and he was also there ly to go watchatch Donald Trump at his Republican National Convention inauguration as a presidential candidate in Cleveland, Ohio a few months after the Brexit result. And he was with Nigel Farraage when they were both getting a connecting flight ice should can't go back to the UK When he fallanks of federal offers roaches post George taken away and in time he learns that the very drug dealers who he said he would launder money for where in actual fact the U. S. authorities, they were undercover FBI agents and post George is thrayed in prison indicted with twenty one charges ples guilty to wire fraud after doing a deal with prosecutors to give them information and essentially spends a period of time in a federal and There's a very long story, but the short version of it taking us to the present he gets out gooes and moves, of course to Montenegro. where where he becomes a crypto gambling entrepreneaire And then in the run up to the last general election He starts funding great number of different facets of Naral Fourage, life and operation. And it's pretty I mean, it's a lot. G We're looking through your splash at the weekend and your long revies you can read on the Times website, but we are talking security, staff, accommodation, social media stuff as well. And Nigel Farage's contention is he's doing all of this as his friend in a personal capacity. But it's the scale of the benefits in kind, I think, which is particularly eye catching Gabriel. That's right. is also the fact as you outlined that it covers so many aspects of Farage's life. there was once upon a time a thing called the Office of Nigel Farage, which had a website and premises But it didn't exist as a legal entity. It transpires large amounts of it' just Post George depositing monies in the words of his lawyers into the accounts of people who were there to serve Farage. So Farage gets his own videographer to revamp his TikTok When the election came, a lot of people said that Farage's TikTok game was way better than anybody else's A third of people get their you news viaikTok. Ferarage is really great at TikTok. It transpired. that was a man paid to do the work by cultural and you talked as well about his Wher staff one person who went on to work in the parliamentary office I another person who was involved in a sort of hipst day fascist. group called generation identity There's sort vious interesting figures involved in this. but yeah, I think the thing that is quite remarkable about it is that the five million pound gift from The crypto bid in a Christher Harbourne. which came days before Farage said he would stand It is, as Farage has repeatedly told us, money which was his to spend as he wished, and he won't say if he spent it in how. He says that he hasn't spent a peny it. You know that auous broadcast round of interestiew. that money is sitting there because presumably there is a risk he might have to pay it back at some point. Either way, he hasn't spent any of that, but there was another source of money And that's quite right. So Essentially the overall purpose of the MP's Code of coonduct is to uphold democracy by preserving transparency and ensuring that any benefit which a reasonable person might think might have an effect on the actions or words of an MP is disclosed so that we and the public are satisfied that there's no hidden reason why somebody might be doing something. becausecause every MP says Yeah, the only reason I took that suitcase of cash was because he's a maid, but it had no effect on my then lobbying for his business. That's the argument. So we need to know who's paying you and then we can all be in the clear. And there's some small print and it says that MPs are required to also disclose any benefits received in the year preceding their election. The only exemption is for purely personal gifts. If there's any suggestion that it's in any way connected to your political activities It says disclose. and if there's any doubt, it says, think about the motive of the giver and the use to which the gift is to be put. And if there's still any doubt, just declare it. So that's what the rules say I think what's quite different about what we revealed's no better or worse, it's just different to the five million is as you've outlined, Steve, a lot of the money here went towards activities which in their substance, they were related to D Farge's life as a national political figure. He says he wasn't a politician, he wasn't standing for office at the time. The latter is certainly true. But he was pumping out a lot of I political material on TikTok, is views on migration, the economy Net zero, debanking the European Convention on Human Rights and add at points reform pro reform activity too. But also when you think about things like security and staff, that's someone with an operation. It's not something and at least from afar it seem was that you would described as being a gift akin to getting a watch from your father in law. as a birthday present. So That's the this there, what I just outlined is a real question for Raj on a rules level, saying nothing of the wider internal and national politics in terms of Farage's position within his party and also within the country But I remember this period reporting on it really well, Gabriel because essentially, this was when Farge was playing a kind of in out keoke g. It wasn't clear if he was going to stand in the election. He was denying it one day, we were getting rums to the contrary. I remember doing press conferences with Richard Tice, who was in charge of reform technically at that point. and it was all about the Nigel Farge question, willill he come back? willill he's down somewhere? whichich obviously he did in the end. And the key point is that you've revealed is that during this period There was a load of undisclosed benefits in kind. And the question is now, what was the status of those benefits in kind? wereere they really personal gift for a personal matter, or did they actually extend beyond that? And that is what Parliamentary standandards Cittee that the Commissioner is likely to have to adjudicate over now You're right. And you are right also that I think it's important you mentioned there that Farage was honorary president of reform at this moment. So he was involved in the party And by the way, George Cottrell is involved in the party too. So Robert Generick on the airwavave yesterday it was a great pains to emphasize that George Cottrell is an old friend of Niah's. He've got nothing to do perform. The times today We had a story with your great colleague, George Greenwood on the fact that actually a semi public event not long ago George Hott was doling out reformed business cs emblazoned with the reform logo, featuring his name and adding that if you wish to engage in further correspondence, the correct email to get to was Nigel Farage's email. So That is very awkward for them too because I guess the real question here as you outlined is was this in any way political and with every added disclosure and development, there seems to be an emerging case, as it were that I'm cultural is more than just a pal. I mean, it is let's be completely even handed, a very difficult relationsation to clar to describe because it is intensely personal and political. So Yeah, he's Noy Fg went out to visit him when George went to move to Montenegro. they went to a polo tournament. and were smoking and drinking on the shore. That's not the same as, you know, I met a donor at a party once. you know they clearly are actually substantially good friends and very, very close. And when Post George was sent to prison, Farage just refused to condemn it. when asked about it on morning television. So yeah, it's a very intimate friendship in its substance too You know, this is a former YouCube chief of staff, former Brexit partarty fundraiser has a business card for reform. so it kind of straddles the personal and political in ways that no doubt the Parliamentary science Commission will have they vexed time distinguishing and adjudicating upon C Can we just talk about the reform response briefly, Gabriel? Because there are two bits I wanted to focus on Firstly, and this is very important, reform are not disputing the facts of your report And George Cottrll is not disputing the facts of your report. They're acknowledging that there were benefits in kind that Cotral funded. I think the phrase was uptil quarter one of twenty twenty four for the security and more broadly. And that is acknowledged and that was also acknowledged I think by Robert Genereick on the broadcast round yesterday. I think I'm correct and saying. So factually, that is not in dispute in dispute is how that should be interpreted in terms of he said this is my friend and there's a question more broadly about whether well actually should that have been therefore declared. And Gabel, one of the things I wanted to look at is obviously Part of Reform's response to this has been to gone offensive boat against you and the Sunday Times more broadly. and some would say it playing the man not the ball. And there has been a kind of general criticism that, you know, he's a labour stooge, all that kind of stuff. Well I would have thought if if you are a labour stooge, you've got a pretty good way of hiding it. I mean, your track record of very difficult stories for labour I would say that you did more to make K Stahmer's life difficult any other journalist out there. I mean, fromom the off about his donations for his clothing, your book that you did with Patrick, mean you are indiscrimina mostostly ap pololitical from where I sit. and I think I know that off labor, I know that from the Tories. It is universse acknowledge that you are Absolutely down the middle in the way you do your reporting Thank you so much, D, for those very kind words. I guess yeah, this is one of those cases where My hope is that the reporting will do the talking because The facts have not been disputed and if the fats seem to have some public interest and if the thrust of the story seems to relate something that matters, then then I'm happy. And I think you've outlined that I've done things that have led to no sort of opprobrium from the Labour Party. and I've got the same from the Tories and I'm getting the same from reform and that's okay as long as the work itself withstand scrutiny and it seems so far it has, not least because all the relevant parties have acknowledged but at proofness of the information behind it. So I'm pleased if that's the case and I can only say that it's not just about me, but Sunday Times hass also been accused of being a labour paper. and in the end we're not on anything or any one paper We just tryed to write stories that entertain and inform our readers and I guess we will'll keep you doing that. So I guess we should talk about where this goes next in terms of this now sits there with the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. Now He is already looking at a connected but different case in its own right. And this is the case of Christopher Harborne who is another crypto billionaire who's given five million pounds to Nigel Farge. and Nigel Farge says, this was a gift. And it was so much was a gift that I had a contract drawn up to clarify that this was a gift between from him to me and I can do with that money what I want. I can spend it as I wish, but that also was not declared. And that investigation is already taking place. It's quite a way down the line. We don't think he's spok to Farage yet, but that's on going. So it looks like the next step is that this ends up on the desk of this guy Daniel Greenberg Commissioner for Parliamentary Stards and this process can take quite some time It can and it is one of those moments by the way, where a lot of politics suddenly hinges. on the discretion of a person nobody has ever heard of. So The thing about the MP's Code of coonduct is it's not a penal code. it's not There's no common law. There are not long jurisprudential opinions on it. It's words and the person entrusted with interpreting the words this Lgal scholar Daniel Greenberg and then his interpretation of the words leads to recommended sanctions, which MPs can then uphold and rubber stamp or not. So it's not like there is a you know there's no CPS guidance here. It's going to come down to how people consider the particulars of the case. And you are right, also, Steve, that these things don't they don't tend to resolve themselves in a hurry. There's often a written correspondence between the MP under investigation and the commommissioner. There'll be evidence exchange, there will be sometimes video or in person sessions And so yeah, basically it does put a question mark over Farj's future. That' not say, by the way that He's unlike a lot of MPs in that S say you are a slightly naughty liibdem or Tory MP who's had his snout in the trough or done something foolish that's going to lead to your suspension for more than ten days and thus trigger a by election or at least create that opportunity Yeah nine times out of ten it's like, okay, well your toast, you know, all MPs think they've got a personal mandate and then reality punches them in the face Farage is very different because The question is not just could this lead to his expulsion from Commons or is defeated a by election. but he then used that as a weapon. I don't say that because it would be good or because it would be bad. but just a kind of observationally clearly Farrage' position in relation to all of this you know, I'm not making about me myself an eye here it's broader. He says all of this is part of an establishment crusade against him And so the question is mightight he lean into it? I feel like the idea that he might step down T runner on that basis is slightly upriced. and I don't know. I might be There's no sourcing behind that, but just thinking in terms of the political gravity of the situation, why subject yourself to pogetry in a form of investigation? Maybe he'll seize the agenda and run on a ticket to defy the establishment and give him the bloody nose. I don't know, but that's what Farage, you know, he has his adversarial relationship with The fourth estate at the moment, he's angry. He doesn't think it's right. You've seen him on broadcast Then there's a sepate politics which I think Steve, you are U you know, how as ever it political journalist to ask about which is just where it lands in in terms of the internal politics of reform. And that I don't know so much about other than to say that you can tell just reading the papers that there has been a shift and that shift is at the question of Farraage Yes or no, good or bad is just back on the table or is on the table Basically for the first time since he returned back in june twenty twenty four to the political fray I think so there are two consequences that flow. onene, the one that you've identified the sanctions issue, right? Will he be expelled as an MP? willill have to refight Clackton, all of that. But two, it is the broader issue. We have seen a lot less of Nigerel Frage recently since the Guardian first reported on the undisclosed five million pound payment. There have been far fewer rem last year and last summer, in particularly we couldn't move for farage press conferences. And then more broadly, I think one of the issues is that Why is Nigel Farge coming under this scrutiny? is because He wants to be Prime Minister. He is open about that, he wants to run the country. And with that comes a level of scrutiny. And sometimes the issue with that scrutiny and this is with politicians of all colours, be they Nigel Farge, Boris Johnson, Kir Starmer, whoever they are all of these questions arise. dominate the bandwidth in a way that is unhelpful to your cause. So I am sure Nigel Farge would probably rather be talking about small boat crossings, his economic vision, all of those kind of things. And instead, he's going to get dragged back to this question. GB News, which is a channel which he had a show on and is a kind of pr is yesterday gave Robert Jenick one of the aggressive grillings of all of the grillings that I saw of Robert Jenn. Camilla Tomy over there did a kind of forensic job at her end going through it. and that's the point. it kind of sucks up a lot of the bandwidth. That's the challenge that reform are going to face. And what I would argue is this is actually part and parcel with Yes, reform are is really significant political force. Yes, they could win the next election. And as a result, with that is coming a lot of scrutiny. a hundred percent and I think that I think that the issue as well is that Nigel Farage he is an incredible politician. You can't dispute the fact that There are a few people who have shaped the course of events in our country in the way that he has. over the last decade, but before that too and I think the Part of his appeal lies in the fact that he looks like he's having fun a lot of the time and he's can interact with anybody and in ways which Kiss armour must from time to time envy can sink pipes are people or go into a old age home and just you can see he'll be like riotously laughing within a minute. and That is part of his aesthetic and no doubt part of his appeal. And he looks normally, looks not like a Westminster creature But when you are put in a vice in this way and you are forced to talk about things that you feel you talked about. Al alsoso probably be underpicer in our profession and probably most members of the public have no idea the reality of when you're doing rounds where a round is a sort of bit of is a sort of media ritual where a given person will be put up. to represent their partiesy forout that day and they might do like seven small interviews in such session. And you know the last time Farage did that, it justes will Like he just really was not enjoying himself one bit and he was very angry about it. And you could tell, I don't think would he's clearly angry. He would acknowledge he's very angry And it just You know, the ability to combine levity with seriousness and the ability to rise above or look different to Westminster is a vital part of his appeal. and this forces him to look and toound like something slightly different. And let's face it. these are highly unusual And he is a highly unusual politician, which he would argue is why he's in this, but you're essentially in a position where he had as he puts it an undclosed gift of five million pounds deposited into his account to spend as he sees f, Ferraris, whatever he wishes, homes, security, you name it. And then separately, he's got another guy who is funding his security, his staff. and that obviously leads to questions because these are unorthodox things. And I think when you step back more broadly, one of the things about reform that is very striking is they are receiving enormous amounts from crypto billionaires. and this is a new feature of politics and it is transforming the world of politics and money in a way that I've not seen before because the money that we're talking about, Christopher Harbourne, who's recently registered to vote in the UK, we revealed the other week, has given twelve million plus already. So twelve million grid, nine million in one go. Bendello, another crypto billionaire who is a reformed donor, just relocated from Hong Kong back to the UK, given four million already. These are huge sums and it is partly part of what is going to make and is making reform an insurgent force that they are not A kind of unprofessional outfit anymore. They've got big money and with that money, they're recruiting a lot of people. and you're seeing that as part of the operation. But that does bring scrutiny on where that money's from and what it's being used for. And that is it has the potential to change politics and to put Nigel Farge in number ten, but equally inevitably, there are questions about some of that money. Yeah I think Frz and Nelson for your find noble paper has been one of the most eloquent commentators on this kind of notot quite military industrial complex, but kind of politics money complex of on one side and reform on the other. I think Fras has said that the sort of essential concept underpinning ethics in public life is that people do everything they can to draw a distinction between commercial interests and their public positions and they wouldn't want there to be any cross contamination. Whereas you know Farage actually is utterly unapologetic in saying Yes, I advocate for crypto Yes, I have lobby the Bank of England and its governor in relation to crypto. Yes, I'm funded by people with commercial interest in crypto. And you know for him, it's not even a bone of contention because he says he thinks what he thinks anyway. And I suppose the problem is in terms of the rules, but maybe also just politics f stop is It doesn't really always matter what the politician says. The MP's Code of Conduct has this idea of a reasonable person So that your average punter, would they have grounds to think that something might seem political about this or that there might be political dimens, this gift that ought to be declared. And Farge is not the arbiter. And that's another thing by the way too as well as well that is worth saying is You get some politicians, Boris Johnsons and other who are amazing on the campaign trail you kind of personify insurgent politics and they feel free being able to interact with people directly and present their position. But when you enter Westminster, the Palace of Westminster is not always so interested in what you want to do. It has its rules and also because it's sovereign, it can administer them in its own way on its own timeline. that's a That's another one as well. It's like, you know, you can say you can say and do certain things when you're outside, but when you're here you know, suddenly it's quite a forbidding and intimidating environment. And it's a bit like party it where you think You know, it's not fully in our hand and we all want to get on top of it and understand it. but These aren't people that talk journalists, they're not people who make the decision until they've signed on the dotted line and sent the recommendation to the Standards committee. it's a very uncertain time for the whole political geography of the country when you think about the significance of what reforms achieved, it's cannibalized so much to the Tory partarty is takaking a sledgehammer to Labour's base is done really well north of the border in Scotland is that without Nigel Farraage? Could it be forced to go on without him You can't ignore that that has become a question as a result of the five million disclosure with which I had no involvement in. and then also latterally this George Cotral business So we approached all relevant parties for comment prior to our story Nigel Farage has since said that he is a victim of an anti establishment hit job and that he is considering legal action against the Sunday Times Lawyers for him said that he did not need to declare benefits owing to the fact that they placed in a period where he was not a politician. and or that they came from a personal friend George Cottrell has repeatedly said he expected nothing in return for the benefits he conferred upon Farraage. that he does what he does because of his genuine friendship and political sympathy with Farage and that he is guilty of no wrongdoing in this instance. And on Apple podcast and Spotify, you can find our new podcast Posh George, the criminal behind Farage