Welfare Reform and Future Challenges

Remember, career criminal George Floyd. Remember the reaction to that and the way the police behaved Within a few days, Kir Starmer was taking Mee Churchill's statue was defaced, the Senotaph was vandalized And yet what has the public reaction been from our leaders and politicians? And indeed, to be frank Much of the meat into this Silence Absolute silence Prif If ever there was any that we're living in a two tier culture in this country where the rights and privileges of white people Matter less than those of ethnic minorities What Nil Farage is doing is reinforcing the difference. I have said that we need to find what we have in common, not what separates us. I don't want to hear about black liives matter. I don't want to hear about white liives matter. We all matter. Enough of this nonsense where we keep separating everybody and splitting people into different groups, we are descending into tribalism I do not want that Welcome to The State of it the pololitical podcast from The Times and the Sunday Times. I'm Stevenen Swinford, the pololice editor at the Times. I'm Patrick MagGuire, Chief political comommentator for the The Times. I'm Laura Spirt, deeputy political editor for The Sunday Times And look, we're going to be looking at two broad issues this week, the two big stories today. The first is the awful appalling murder of Henry Novak and the political responses that we're seeing already today and there'll be more coming this afternoon, I'm sure. And the second is we're going to go kind of deep dive into the Lord Mandelon files. We're going to be asking what does this actually mean and what is the bigger picture of where these files take us. But look, the reason we wanted to start on Henry Novak is I'm sure everyone listening to this podcast has seen the police bllody cam footage and bluntly put It is alling. it is Absolutely awful footage. It is a young man, an eighteen year old dying after being stabbed with a twenty one centimeter ceremonial sword. He is falsely accused of racism and he is arrested for alleged racism. and as he is lying there dying, saying I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I've been stabbed The police are effectively appear to be ignoring those concerns. They proceed with the arrest, and that is his dying moment. And that is a young man that has died. As ever, the politics are never far behind it. And the reason we're looking at this is the father of Henry Novak, this eighteen old student that was killed, was very clear. He didn't want this to be politicised effectively. He didn't want this to lead to more division and hatred. But what has happened this morning is we have started at eight AM this morning with an emergency press conference from Nigel Farge, where he is essentially As you heard in that clip said that this is evidence that we are operating in a two tier culture, a two tier Britain and that white people are being treated less well than those from ethnic minorities. So a very strong intervention from Nigl Far to start this day, Patrick, But you were there to tune in morning, I, weren't you at the ATM And and I was and I watched it. it is the epitome of how reform works. which is They move quickly Those were the words used to me by Source very close to Night Farge, you know, they got out hard and they got out fast. They stream this intervention live on X and live on YouTube at eight AM and it is leading the days discourse, not least because, as you say, Steve It is sharply expressed. It's not pejorative to say, it's divisive because it's talking about divides in society in literal sense. Yeah, in a literal sense and they know, they know full well that this is going to put the Labour Party and specifically Andy Burnham running against the makerfield. in a very, very difficult position. There's lots to talk about lotots to respond to in this case, The response of the place which is always a difficult thing for politicians to weigh in on. partarticularly labour politicians who are conscious of being seen as anti police you also have the accusations of racism or racial bias, right? All of which is a complete nightmare. for the Labour Party to respond to and more than one person at the top of the Labour Party this morning, you know, talking MPs, former cabinet ministers peopleople who worked in Kiss A' Downing Street have drawn the parallel The instant Nigel Farge mentioned, june twenty twenty, George Floyd What does that cause in the Labour Party? It causes a massive nervous breakdown. K Starmer, against the advice of his aides, takes the knee because he feels under pressure from the left. put the knee in his office. Yeah with Angela Rayna. Yes, yeah. And that is something you see raised on by right wing accounts on X quite a lot because it felt Proocative you had ced armor under pressure to respond to the demands of activists in this party for a more robust response, then obviously you hand Inidces of law brereaking, COVID breaches, vandalism. Kirst Stma condemn that ended up being hailed by Naja Farraj. I remember a tweet from Naja Farraj in that week in june twenty twenty saying, I heartily agree with Kirstarmer's condemnation of the Black Lives Matter organization. And he just kissed on it emerged from it, battered bruised, he couldn't really straightforwardly praise or defend the police. Everything he said about the racial issue opened up a really painful conversation among progressives from which he was caught in the middle. and that is the risk for any labour politician who wighays into this. The words of one Labour MP are my main takeaway from this is whatever, you know, what Kir Stom says this, obviously he's the prrime Minter. It's nottally irrelevant what he says because he's Yeah it's still overseeing you know, the machinery of government and what he says is important in terms of the politics of this. because the backdrop of it is what's happening in Mgerfield a seat where reform, expect what they've said to have Huge resonance The question is As a labour and pe said to me Will Andy Burnham just say the opposite Nanjgeer Farge. And if he does, there are lots of people in Labour Party, he'll think it'll open up a conversation in which they can only lose And look we've had two significant interventions already on this this morning. We've spoken about Nigel Farge's intervention he gave. We've had Kamy Baayenoock, the Torory leader was on Good Morning Britain this morning and she took a very different view. to Nigel Farrage. She talking about her nine year old son who is half black and half white. and she was saying, Lara, that everyone matters and that she thought that essentially Nigel Frage was whipping up Ager and division was her suggestion here. Yeah I mean, it was really interesting to her intervention this morning where clearly she wanted to make it known that she had a very different position to Nigel Farge on this point and was very confident in stating quite aggressively actually that she felt that you this was a divisive and I think in her view, she was using that term pejoratively action from Farage to do this intervention and to use the language that he did I think it shows confidence on the part of the leader of the opposition because they do have pretty strong policies on these areas, they would say. and clearly they have wanted to take a very forthright position on questions around this broader issue. But here Kemybe not clearly wanting to make it known that she has a very different view to Nigel Fredrich, I think was very interesting to hear. Regardless of what you think of the substance, it was a very, very powerful intervention hear ly emotionally youd hear her voice cracking and as you say, Lara, point of that and you know I was just talking about you know, labor saying the opposite and labor being bounced in this direction and that direction by whatever Nijl Fracha was to be saying. What was impressive about Kemmy Baynoock's response or the way she framed it was she rejected the framing entirely. It was a distinct position S of Farge. It was trying to move the argument own And I got Labour M P Mash should be saying, this is exactly where we need to be. It is that rejecting the terms of what Farraj is saying without necessarily saying the opposite. Yeah, I will read out a bit of it, because it was pretty powerful. She said, I have a nine year old boy in ten years time, he will be about that age, the age of Henry Novak. He's half black, he's half white. I bring him up to believe this country is one where he belongs and he should never have to worry about how he will be treated. You see that video and think, how can we tell our children these things? I want that to be the reality. What Nigel Farage is doing is reinforcing the difference. We need to find what we have in common, not what separates us I think the point just to come back to it that you made, Patrick, that This was Nigel Farraage getting out the blocks incredibly early this morning with his version of events. and this whole debate is now being framed through the prism of Nigel Farage. and it is on the turf that they want to be on. This is a fight that they want to have. They are arguing that the system is effectively anti white and that this is unfair playing obviously directly into that by election Yeah, exactly. Let me tell you what a source cl Nifar said to me justust after AM this morning in the hours after that speech rather. know we got out early and strong, think it was one of Nigel's finest speeches, struck the right tone, not a clue how Berham responds. Make a feelld we'll buy into what Nigel has said. Now having had lots of conversations with Nigel Farage about the state of government in this country, about what he sees as kissed on as bigg as mistakes I doubt that his critique of two tier policing is sincere. is also the case This intervention is maybe with one eye on the voters makeie too. mean, it's worth thinking if had't made that intervention, what the conversation would be about because Stahmer's statement initially afterwards, while obviously saying it was an awful and tragic event, did focus firmly and squarely on knife crime, was making that the firm issue, which is what the family wanted to focus which is what the family said on the steps they wanted the focus to be, but know when I've spok to people in reform, they say actuallyually they've been in contact with the family, they're not concerned about this kind of area of questioning. but you know clearly Starmer wants it to be in this space of knife crime and immediately from Farga's intervention this morning, we're now in a very, very different place. Can we just talk about the by election? because obviously you' both been up in the last couple of weeks How is it actually going for reform Mfield. Well, know I think reform will say that the polling that we had from Servation in the Sundnay Times which indicated that Restore Britain might be on something around seven percent. I think they think that's a bit high that actually it is lower than that realistically. I think they're pretty confident about being able to squeeze thatote. I mean I don't know what you think Patr. I think there's been a greater level of confidence from Labour in recent days about about that election, but I still think it's so close. and it's so fascinating. And actually, you Patr spent time with Kenyan, the reform candidate. I'd also spoken to him. There is just a constant stream now of comments and previous evidence of social media activity, which I think people in Westminster think is extremely concerning for reform, but at the moment it doesn't feel like they are massively concerned about how that will play. And actually I should say In one of the more interesting things that I focused on during this by election campaign, I joined a focus group that Luke Trillermore and Common had put on for women voters in Makerfield to see how they had responded to these comments from Kenyan, which in some respects have a flavour of focusing on women. I think it's fair to say, I mean he kind of self described at one point as being a sexist, and actually listening to the remarks of these women who voted voted in different ways, we should say, but they were actually less appalled by the comments themselves unhappy and uncfortable with the idea that he hadn't kind of firmly come out and really apologized and retracted those views. I think there is a sense among a lot of voters that you didn't necessarily have your career cancellled outright for things that you said more than a decade ago. And yet, I think there was a sort of question about how he would respond to these in the coming days, which left me with a sense that if there was more to come out, for example, or if this did become a kind of longer running issue in the campaign actually it might be in reform's interest for Kenya to say something more explicitly or openly about this. And I understand the kindind of reluctance with him at the moment because he's not a seasoned politician. This is not like Andy Berham being out there talking to the media like he has done, you week in week out for decades in his career. This is somebody who was literally doing a plumbing job when he found out that he was going to become the candidate for reform in this constituency. So I do think it's interesting in that respect, but just I mean the gender divide in Makefield at the moment, if you look at that svation poll is so striking. Bham has twenty one point lead among women in those figures in that poll and Kenyan has a fifteen point lead among men Which is really striking, th. It's a very gendered agend by election battle, right? But one of the things I wanted to talk about Patrick was Andy Berham's strategy. So Until now it strikes me that he has been running, I think largely a positive campaign based on his own appeal and his desire to change the Labour Party and kind of all focused on that. What he isn't doing is talking very much about reform or Fage. He doesn't seem to be playing the man directly That may change because of what we're seeing now, I guess. Maybe. but what's interesting about the campaign and Laura alluded to it there There are competing voices. Yes. peopleeople are competing Fly Burnhams here. As you'd expect, the guy is almost certainly going to be our next prrime minister key numbers I understand is seventy percent At least at the weekend, that was the number of voters Labour thought was still undecided, which they think is high for this point in vi election campaign. So while Andy Burnham's public comms, you know, the beers and the daily video updates and that sort of thing are not necessarily, you know, I hate Niggeer Farage. It is, as I revealed in the paper on Monday, you know, Northern Seoul, keepe the faith, change labour all of that sort of thing, Rugby league, very authentic local message, but they are trying to et Andy Burn in front of as many uersided voters as possible. Lean into difficult conversations, right? Lean into the stuff I'm told people several people who've been up comes up on the doorstep You know, he did a video last week where he spoke about his role in Greater Manchester's clean air zone, the sort of ULS style congestion charge leaning into that grooming gangs he's done a video on to. So you know, while he's not attacking Nigel Farage directly, He is acknowledging what reformers say, but you he is becoming the message character for reforms criticism. He's his own rapid rebuttal unit which is it's a new strategy. It sort of has more in common with Digital native politicians like Farj himself like Zora Mandani in New York than it does any British politician One of the things that I just wanted to touch on before we move on to the Mandelsen Files is actually in the Mandelson Files, but it's pertinent to this, which is what do you do about reform Pat McFadden asks this question very openly of Mandelson at one point, how do we deal with reform after they've suffered some really bruising local election losses? I remember this question being asked right back through all the Tories You know Rishy Sunak was asking the same question when he was in power and his answer was not to talk about him, to treat Nigel Farrage like Voldemort. Then you've got Starmer who is actually trying to predicate or has tried to save his premership on going for Farage as much as possible, getting personal. And you' now got Andy Burnham occupying this territory where he's having to deal with the consequences of what Farage is saying but still not quite playing the man. And it does strike me that People in British politics on the opposing sides haven't really quite worked out how to tackle Farge and how to take him on Um, and it means that he can have these fights on his own terms. Yeah, I mean, for labour, they're in a peculiar position at the moment and a completely unique one in that they have this by election where Andy Burnham, as Patrick has just explained to we spoken about, is running his own campaign of sorts with a labour machine also behind him in a particular and very unique way where cabinet mininisters are going up there secretly. they're not allowed to take their special advisors. They're campaigning with no photos being taken They don't want cabinet visits. becausecause they're so unpopular. No no, because it reminds of the government. It's like you' allowed to come Straw. You're allowed to come up and if you really, really, really want to sell you with Andy Burnham, you can have one. But Andy's not going to knock on doors with you.ike Andy is not gonna to like Your association damages me is basically No it's amazing. It's absolutely. I was struck onaturday when I was with Andy Burnham at the Labour C campaign HQ It's so transparent what these people are doing like you just get a steady stream of people coming you Labour MP's coming up to him like saying o can we have a picture Andy. This is why I don't think there's going to be a leadership It's not going to be a leadership contest because like you've got the whole PP coming up to Makefield coming up to Ashton saying to Andy Burnham, you know, basically please come have a picture L for four pictures, like three of them knockking on doors and one of them self you with Andy Burnham Isn't it one of the mad? I mean this we've talked about it being the most consequential by election in history. That is one of the maddest things that Addy Burnham does not want to be associated with any members of the cabinet or scene with them because it potentially would damage his chances. And if you drive through the constituency The really striking thing and One, there are loads of reform boards, but two, you're reminded when you see the Andy Berham Garden stakes He's not talking about the labor he's talking about the Labour Party in so farar as he's saying You hate the Labour Party, but not half as much as I hate the Labour Party. I had a drink with the minister on the terrorist last night and They were saying, you know They've been up a couple of times and they're saying it's so surreal in that usually if you're a by election candidate Party HQ the Northwest region or whatever region you're in of the Labour Party, the hierarchy say, you're going to do this O on this day, you're going to get the chancellor and then the homeome Secretary's going to come up and you'll do this visit and that visit. And Andy Burnham and I have to say some of the most Terrifying people in labour politics. I mean, terrifying is a compliment some of the hardest people in labour politics who are running the campaign with him or just saying No, we're going to do it like this. You know And the minister was saying to me, what happens when the prime Mister says, I would like to come up to Makeerfield and visit a school in the constituency What do they say then? And you know, obviously they'd like to say no. frrankly, you think, you know, actually at this point, Andy Berham's campaign probably does have the authorities to say No. Also if you want to visit a school in the Greater Wiggan area, you can do it by yourself because I'm certainly not going to be tethered to you. But yeah, it's extraordinary. The last thing I just wanted to touch on a minute that just striuck me as extraordinary is that because it is also by election which is about the future Prime minister potentially if he wins it. A lot of huge policy pronouncements are being made by Andyo spokespeople So we had Andy will stick by the fiscal rules, not from Andy Burnham But from his spokespeople, you've today had them ruling out going for an early election. Not from Andy Bernam, but from his spokespeersople. It's all being decided from the sort of back bar of a labour club in or Cross just outside Wigan. It's extraordinary. You don't see social clubs like that anymore. but that is the most significant place in British politics. A social club on a suburban street in Wiggan that every Thursday night This iss my favorite fact about it. It has an exotic bird auction, right? People walk in with exotic birds in cages and people come from far and wide to be. It used to be a thing It's a histor thing that the bird in c. Well used in old society, it was a status thing, wasn't it? haaving exotic birds? Well, exactly. That's what they're still doing in Wigland My retired miners having brereakfast every Saturday I in another room You have half of the Labour Party having to camp from London looking slightly baffled to be in Wiggan and what is this? and a small group of people determining not only Labour partarty's country and even smaller group of people determining not only the Labour Party's future, but the country's future. It is extxtrainary. And look, we are duty bound, obviously to read out the full list of everyone who is standing for election in the Makefield by election. So with no decorum without fear or favour, we have Jay Costin for the Liberal Democrats, Count Binface for the Count Binface Party. Andy Burnham for the Labour and Corporative Party, Dan Clark for the Libertarian Party, John Dyer, who is an independent Gemmel for the Climate Party Paul Gould, who is an independent, howling Lord Hope The official Monster Raving Loononey partarty, Robert Kenyan of Reform UK Robert Powell and independent, Rebecca Shepd of restore Britain Sarah Wakefield of the Green Party, Peter Ward of Rejoin EU, Michael Wynne Stanley, the Conservative and Unionist Party. Right We're going to head to the interval. and when we come back, we are going to get into the Mandelsen Files. So welcome back to the State of it, the political podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times. We want to talk to you about the Mandelsen Files. I mean, there are a lot of them I've spent last night reading most of them now, one thousand five hundred pages worth, one hundred and sixty odd pages of WhatsApps and text messages. And I think look, when you stand back, they are It' pretty an extraordinary insight into a kind of first draft of history the minds of people in government, or at least those that didn't have disappearing messages turned on. People like Pat McFadd and others who may not be fully okay with that technology. And we should open because obviously we should open on this, Patrick McGuire Syndrome. Let's talk about Patrick McGuire Syndrome Wh it's a condition for which there is no known cure and it's spreading rapidly across Westminster and it's takaking root in the cabinet, I think, Steve. You know, So yeah, this was Peter Mandelson messaging Driver, the much missed Director of commommunications to Sakir Stalmer last year. talking about another journalist whose modesty and integrity I will defend by not naming them. And Peter manans said this journalist' attitude was essentially benign But he does have a bit of the Patrick Mcuire syndrome, which means you are critical of Ker ararma and you think you struggle to discern a political philosophy and think he doesn't stand for anything. Surprise, surprise, everybody seems to have contracted that syndrome now. And I did get a text from a sened labour politician this morning saying they basically agree they didn't quite say they had Patet Maguire syndome But if saying the Prime Minister doesn't stand for anything and doesn't have a political project is a pathology, then you know I accept the diagnosis manfully chosen to live without treatment and battle this m own way and seek homeopathic remedies. I think you know, as well as getting to the heart of how Peter Mandelson operates, This question of what kind of leader is K Starmer hangs heavily over the files. You know Kir Starmer is a felt absence. His own text to Peter Mandelon reveal that there isn't really a private Kir Starmer when he's speaking to other politicians. You know John Major is a very thoughtful man ' so excited to be governing. People want politics to tread more lightly on our lives. even in conversation with Peter Mandelson is sort of It's part of political broadcast. Yeah Yeah exactly, exactly right. What we don't learn from the files, interestingly, because for all the talk of the intntelligence and Security Committee being fearless and know saying the government wanted to redact too much, all the interesting stuff that could have told us about what Peter Mandelson was doing, what kind of ambassador he was the relationship with the US. was, what influence he had in shaping that? What did he think about Gaza, about China? Tr about Trump, about industrial policy, about trade, about all the reasons he was put in that job. You read particularly the first two parts of it and it is just redacted, redacted, redacted, redacted, redacted. It's with the way they've done this, they've just sort invited another round It's like that scene for the Stimpsons stop stop he's already dead, like people just kicking Kirsted Ama and saying he's rubbish. rightight? Yeah, we know that. We've known for years that you all thought that. So we basically learn nothing other than confirmation of what we already knew from these files One of the things that is particularly one of the oddities of these files is Lord Mandelson has done more damage to the Labour Party to Kirist Aarm's government probably than anyone barrowing the Prime Minister himself and the many many U turns. But he does have a skill for language, Larura. And he talks about advance buckle, advance buckle. he talks about a beleaguered number ten. And a lot of people I've spoken to in Labor are in violent but silent agreement with Mandelson over his diagnosis. It's just obviously they can't say that publicly. And yeah, his criticism of the number ten operation, I thought was particularly striking and one of the big features of this. I mean said said on Bell the Penchminister, having being in number ten, he was bereft of what he'd seen in there. I mean you remember when we heard that they would be coming out after recess and we thought, that is so stupid The number ten have allowed this to roll on and on and on. How insane in the middle of a violion campaign, you're going to see this therell be another wake of damaging regations. I actually think the opposite is true. I think people have already decided that Kiss armour is politically dead And actually as a result of it, this has been a bit of a damp squib I'm sure that people pore over this and they haven't totally absorbed everything in this yet, but this is not a release which is seeing widespread resignations, or, I mean, for reasons that Patrick has explained, the kind of sole kernel of truth at the heart of this is an absence of political judgment from the Prime Minister that has been a well accepted fact for a very, very long time. and this merely confirms that. And so This is actually as catastrophic We might have thought it would be, but the reason why it's not a catastrophic is because this government is already seen as being dead. I agree with that one hundred percent. There is in there a really interesting story, which is we were trying to juggle with how you write the splash last night and ended up writing it very straight because technically, it's not really directly about Mandelson, about Starmer's authority. It was Pat McFadden in this one WhatsApp message about benefits. I mean, look Patrick, just just walk listeners through What that message said? We should get it up on the page. Yeah, exactly. So you know, I'll read the top line of your expertly written splash Steve. Labour MPs only care about who they can tax to pay benefits to others. A senior cabinet minister complained to Lord Mandelson Pat McFadon the working P Secretary expressed his frustration with backbenches in messages published yesterday as part of the so called Mandelen files which dealt a fresh blow to Sakiia Stara's authority. So yet that was Capfan, not yet the working pension secretary at that point. Yeah. this time last year thereabouts was speaking to Peter Mandelleson regularly as he did and what they were talking about was the welfare rebellion, which was The moment, I think we'd all agree What was left of Kist Arma's authority sort of blew up, right? That's the point at which the PLP, the Parliamentary Labour Party, Labour MPs took back control and said, you know, you're running against our instincts. We can't put up with this. The whole thing blew up and Pat McFadden, like the good blare up that he is, is despairing that they don't want to swallow the medicine. In every meeting he says they're asking that question, who can we tax more to pay more to people on benefits. But again, it comes back tell you pierced armor, not setting a direction, the direction being run from the treasury who were looking for cuts in costs argument never having been made And so You have these councils of despair constantly on the fringes and at the center of at the Labour Government. But the politics to this are really, really tricky for the Labour Party. I think becausecause You see where the Tourories and reform think they can make hay out of this. you know, Temmy Ben not calls them the welfare partarty. Najer Farage now says the big divide, the defining divide in British society is between those who work and those who don't. We had that poll of union members on the front page of Monday's Times. that Nigel Farge said we are now the party of the working class. You know, we are neck and net with labour among union members So what does Labour Party do about this? Do they max out their progressive base? It comes back to question Pat Mcfunn, P Melson, you know, what we do about reform or do they try and do welfare reform? If Andy Burnham is trying to do welfare reform or the next what competitive secity does do welfare for How does that go Ely when You'll have Neither Farge and Kemy Bayock quoting Pat Fund's wors at them. I think is one of the most damning indictments of this government. so far their failure to do any meaningful welfare reform. Now we get why. There was a mass result. revol more than one hundred Labour MPs said no, so he was politularically incapable. What it means is you now get this situation where you get these absolutely tortuous broadcast rounds where ministers seem to be incapable of saying that they would actually like to reduce the welfare budget, that it's too big. You get this kind of semantic language where they start talking about opportunity and stuff like that rather than the fact that this bill is really big, there are more and more people on welfare. This is unsustainable. I think that is One of the kind of biggest problems this government faces when we got to the King's speech There is no welfare reform in it. and we had this excoriating report from Alan Milbourne last week where he was warning that one in six young people could end up being nes. One in six people agge between sixteen and twenty four are in education, employment or training. That' an extraordinary statistic. that the alarm bells are ringing everywhere. We have some fundamental social problems and they are not being gripped. political problem for labour. I think in the language that Milburn used around this, you do find perhaps an example of how labour can do welll for reform, which is, you know, Milburn said You look at, the statistics that you you've just cited Steve, all of these young people who are out of work, many of them who would like to be in work. And he would say, is this not the example of a progressive cause to turn this around? And that is the case that we're making to someone in the soft leftft who, you know my colleague Josh Glancy wrote about this at the weekend, There are part of the soft lefte that're looking for an off ramp on this that would look at the example like the Milburnview and say, you know what Not that we regret what happened with the welfare rebellion, but actually we do need to show that we are in favour of sensible and rational welfare reform because there are problems with this. and actually it's not a progressive thing to allow many young people to be locked out of the employment market for their whole lives when they would otherwise not want to be. there's nothing progressive about that. So I think there has been some hope in recent days in some parts of labour that actually Milburn has shown There was expert media management, but there was also a really substantial report that both he and Pat McFadden before yesterday's release, he had a good few days could talk very coherently about the problem and couch it in really strong labor terms. that is the problem I have with it. They're really good at talking about it. They're really good at saying, this is a problem clearly an issue. when it actually comes to doing anything about it, let's not forget that when they tried to reform welfare and there was this mass revolt, the welfare reforms that they introduced would only have mitigated the increase in the benefits bill. They were actually pretty small frry despite the kind of scale of the outcry of it, and they wouldn't have had a significant impact very significant impact on the overall benefits in the concerns. So that is my issue that we're now in, I think three or four different reviews. No one is like coming up with any policies to actually deal with it. No I completely agree, I completely agree. And to that they would say you know, this is a problem of successive governments, not just the Labour Party. And I just wonder if Andy Burnham comes in. I mean, I wonder who is Andy Burnham's working secretary going to be, for example. What on earth is he going to say about this? He's going to face a really difficult set of fiscal circumstances when he first arrives in number ten He's also going to face the need to fund a whole load of things that people on the softw will be banging on his door saying that they need money for. And I think he does in Melbourne have something of a playbook to be able to say, H is an example of how we do need to make big changes. and there is a progressive case for doing that. This really is Labour's last showowice, right. Get this wrong in any way. And Niggel Fraudge, a government of the right or a dysfunional, you know Someone will come along very soon and blow up everything you care about So that's the choice guys. Right. onn that happy note, exper brings this week's episode of the State of it to a close. Thank you for listening and we'll be back next week