Reflecting on Society and Moving Forward

From the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story on Sunday I'm Anan V Ranner Gisee Pelico walked into a courtroom in the south of France She did something extraordinarily rare among victims of sexual violence. She waived her anonymity and insisted that the trial be held in public The case, in which dozens of men were accused of raping her. While she was unconscious after being drugged by her own husband shocked France and made headlines around the world. It was that decision to be seen and named and her insistence that the shame of these crimes belong to the perpetrators the victim that transformed Giseelle Pelico into a symbol Dignity courage and defiance Today We bring you an interview with her by Times Radio's Jane Garvey Featured on our sister podcast, O Fair with Jane and Fe We have always got a very diverse range of interviewees for you on this podcast. and today's is just extraordinary, Jane I don't think there can be many more famous women in the world right now than Giseell Pelico who has written this incredible memoir which we have discussed quite a bit on the podcast and on the radio show as well because I interviewed the two interpreters who translated him to life into English and we've also spoken to her lawyer. So this was a fantastic opportunity. talk to Giselle who is in London just for today actually. So she's doing a whole round of different interviews And we talked her, I talked to her through an interpreter And u I know this is going to say I hope it doesn't sound fatuous, but I think if anyone is concerned about her, worries that perhaps she is being asked to do too much, that this woman has been through hell and is now being made to go through more hell I would want to reassure them that she genuinely looks fantastic. facially, she is glowing Her hair is glossy and immaculate And she told me that she was feeling really, really good about herself and about life. So I do I mean, even if you've read the book, you can't really begin to understand the amount of suffering that woman has been through to have emerged in the way she has is a colossal achievement So it was really an honour to spend some time with her Giseelle Thank you very much for talking to us. We really appreciate it. In your book, you make a real attempt to try to understand why your husband behaved in the way he did Do you expect readers to feel passion for him No, not at all didnidn't write the book for readers to have compassion for him I wanted in the book to get across my story, what I lived through because I want people to get to know me and get to know what I'd encountered before the trial. And I thought about writing the book But I thought, what am I going to write this book And essentially I wanted to be authentic and sincere and to get across my emotions by story what I live through And it's a kind of therapy for me as well to rebuild myself, get to know myself And I wanted to then sur read this to get to know me as well But when you first found out, from the police what he'd done You went home and you did his laundry. What was going on in your head at that time It's true that when I discovered what happened My brain kind of disassociated The curser kind of stopped on pause in my head. I felt it hadn to stop I felt that really I didn't want anything I'd been told was a truth. so I When back home, I had a certain reflex that. I don't know they were defense mechanisms But I did the washing and did the isolate. It was as if in fact life was going to contineia And I have felt that I didn't want what Leoan told me was a truth. I was living so a nightmare So I had to accept what I've been told at the police station You are incredibly honest in the book and you talk at one point about missing your status as a married woman Can you just explain exactly what you mean by that That's really quite a complicated question. why do I want to carry on living my life as before I was hoping that my fifty years of life was Mr. Perito H has been a lie So yes I hangg on to memories because it's radical for me back of these good times, that couldn't seem to be surprising. It was just a way to be able to keep standing up. I know that Mr. Billisu's maps were monstrous, but I tried to kind of juggle with the two parallels that he was a human being and a monster. was Eza But of course he was going to be judged and that's what happened and I wanted to Remember the good times My children want to destroy everything and their hate and their horror was legitimate. I wanted to pretty detect myself and I was protecting, defending myself When you waived your anonymity What was the impact in the courtroom when everybody in that room realized what you'd done When I made that decision to not have the flu, I couldn't have envisaged the nightmare that I was going to live through within this court and I saw those who looked at me were accused. and I was humiliated. and in fact, those who were being jged was not them but me. I held to the end throughout the trial because of all the women that were there that was supporting me outside the court. And when you saw the men who'd raped you, these every everyvery man What did you think of them It Is true where do you see them? You think it supposed to everybody, they were twenty two to seventy years old what kinds of professional careers, married men Single m with girlfriends Mrter everybody, your neighbour, your brother, your friend, your But of course You have to Also to say you yourself, they're not miss everybody You can't capable of raping an unconscious woman in her bedroom. That does give rise to questions And it's true that they all went on to a site as been clos down now But there are some that have opened up again and cled down again, thank goodness, but they all met up in this salon and they were They were said they weren't calpable that it was Mr. Billy Cool who had kind of attracted them, or when you look at the videos, you realize that they were all accomplassices And so it's complicated to see how these individuals could have he in such a way They were living very close to me and It was as if they'd just come to an evening playing cards And so they denied They said they were innocent, that they had nothing to were approach. They did rape me, but fortunately had the the news which told that truth otherwise they would have been Let's go luckily all them are considered to be culpable. and then that I also could have this status as a victim I don't want to be a victim anymore because I was recognized as being a victim then, but now I want to move on to other things. Of course, I'll never forget what I go through There are scars that will not heal. but that's why I wrote this book because writing this book was a kind of therapy as well And I' done itode everyone, all those women who feel alone and isolated, who don't dare speak, can see that what I dare do they can also do it. And I'm delighted today that people are taking the word and also expressing themselves thanks to my story. I think I will have transmitted that strength to them and I'm really very pleased that this story can actually help them. When you tell your story, you go all over the world talking at conferences and book festivals and in interviews like this How many men are in the audience listening to you At the beginning, there weren't many. And in fact, it was quite surprising But I think at one point There were some men that were starting to question themselves. and in fact There a number of them said to me, I was ashamed of being a man. I knew no longer how to behave and bit by bit, as I meet more and more There are more and more men. And when questions are asked in the public, men are there say thank you. Thank you for what you've done. and you really changed my way of looking at my wife and women And I kind of consciousness raised in a way And it's interesting to realize that there are some men who've also read it because they're wives say, I've read it, you're going to read it, The husbands and it It should affect men and women. and it does, and I'm really quite proud gotot a French friend whose son is at the Lis frrane in Lisbon and he read it. They read it in a university and I'm really pleased about that. Of course you watch keep your feet on the ground, but I think my story certainly did affect the world because I received so many letters and said that this must never take place again. Of course, I know there are still some women who are victims of this, so we're going to have to control the platforms where young children can connect themselves. We've got to be able to talk to our sons and to men, we're here to live together And we're made to live together and all of that has got to stop How much do you blame pornography? And it really appalling as far as our young children who don't know in fact what love is. they think that love is a way of violently treating women. but in their heads, that's what love is So we have to lookook at these children, sometimes they're children of nine or ten who are already looking at pornography, we have to ensure that the parents be vigilant. You mustn't just give an iPad Because I think that in fact it's something that's totally devastating as far as the future. So we've got to be able to talk, dialogue first of all through education within the family home, but also the national educational level. We've got to realize that in fact, it really is an evil of society at the moment. Do you think your husband, your ex husband would have behaved in the way he did? without pornography because he did use extreme pornography, didn't he? Yeah. When he was very young, now I am convinced he was using pornography and I know it carried us. When we were living together, I never saw on his computer. off course he must have done it without me being president and then it would have struck me, but never saw that from Mr. Biricou and he never was salacious about women. He was always very elegant and that's why I found it really difficult to understand his behaviour at the moment when it was revealed to me. And in fact, I felt at that point that I didn't know him And that was explained extremely well by the psychatrist Paul Ben Suson who said that he had two sides to his personality. A ati A where he was kind and extrovert and kind with his family and his friends And you didn't see anything and then size B where he was really perverted and this kind of descent into hell, the fact that he was able to make me undergo everything I underwent. Anyone who has read your book and had learnnt just a little bit about your experience will be in some ways, astonished that you have been able to trust Again and found you found a new partner How did you do that? Mell, it was very natural. I had never envisaged meeting another man, man or falling in love, but some friends join friends Who knew him and we met an evening And we talked a lot But I didn't think anything of it. We thought we'd become friends. and then it just happened really naturally. We really fell in love. He'd also lived through a difficult moment in his life. He accompanied his wife to the end of her life And we really just fell in love like a couple of adolescents And it was a beautiful story and I trust him because he's a really extraordinarily valued man And I have complete trust in him. And that's something that's also important. I think there are a lot of women who live with wonderful men wonderful companions You mustn't assume that all men are perverts. That's absolutely not the case. No. We know that. and we always remember to say not all men But there is no doubt that you have made such a difference to the world. You've won every honor from your own country. Our own queen has written to you, I know, and that means a great deal to you But we still can't control what goes on in people's heads Does it concern you that There some real savagery in the heads, in the minds of some men, perhaps too many men I think that we have to control all the platforms. all media platforms and all institutions have got take things in hands. I think they've got to be some stakeholders that look after all this Because we have to think about the victims. There are more and more victims of sexual violence And that's something we've got to be vigilant and we've got to be concerned by The whole of society has got to be vigilant and say to itself that they need to use the means so those men are followed by psychiatrist Because after all, when you imprison somebody, that's not going to necessarily solve the problem. I'm convinced those individuals that are in prison, they won't have been thinking. I think they felt they were they're not going to be introspective at all. I would hope they'd be followed by psychologists that' realize the harm they ca because I didn't think that they really felt that they committed a crime, but they did commit a crime. And I don't know whether really that they understand that the fact that they've attacked me Some years ago, you say yourself in the book, you were living what you call a little life. Would you have believed yourself capable becoming this remarkable person that you are today. Well, I always ask myself the questions What was my mission on earth? I asked myself this question very young as basically I wanted to build up a family and I realized very quickly from september twenty twenty four That was my mission I wanted to allow women to speak as well. And that's something I're convinced of together And in fact give my tiny contribution to the Eedifice. It was a project that was going to take a long time, but I feel that I wanted to transfer the flame to the new generation so that they can carry on with this fight And are you happy now? Very Very happy. My family is united. We're more united than ever I've got somebody in my life that I'm mostly in love with. and something I could never as envisageed. So you can really rise up again And I did have a really tough journey. It wasn't always easy in my life that I always, in fact how to deal with adversity, and I felt that life would always be kind to me at some point. and I think that I'm really on the right track now Giseelle Pelico and her book, Him to Life is out now. There's not a great deal you can say about Giseelle that hasn't already been said, but honestly F I'll never forget just spending a little bit of time with her and I really I really hope more people are now encouraged to read that book excruciating though it is at times, and one of the excruciating things about it is how tough she is on herself and how soul bearingly honest she is about herself as well it's properly difficult to read But I don't think anyone would regret doing it actually. For us to have slightly changed our attitude as well is such a monumental thing a woman to have achieved. And by that I mean, in her very, very simple ask that the shame moved over from women who have been subjected to sexual assault and rape. The shame moves to the man who did it.. And of course she's right. and we all knew that, but to hear her say that I think it is one of those things that stays with you forever It does make an enormous, enormous difference And it needs to make a difference because as we know in this country, there are still cases of people not getting it of rape on a woman and the shame that needs to be attached. Yeah, quite men who do it. Yeah, one hundred percent. and it is, I think, going to lead to wider and frankly, much needed and necessarily explicit conversations about pornography and its impact The producer and sound designer today was Dave Creasey, the executive producer was Edward Rrummond. I'm Manfin Rana We'll be back. Mi.