Future Investigations and Family Wishes

From the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story I'm Anne Vin Ranna december third, twenty twenty five. A nine nine nine call is made asking for the police Sorry, we just got attack racially by some white person Will in Belmumont Ls now in the street are you J L look, we I just pied on my car to from home and you attack my brother. talking about verbally or physically? No, you's physically come ao a with seets We wear turbon and he says, T my brother Two men are on the line from a street in Southampton . P police need a resort com in. Yeah was. Something has clearly gone very wrong Now he's lying on the floor. He was trying to get away, He jumped over some bins and stuff you need medical attention Does he need medical attention records There were weapons because the second man on that call Vikram Diggwa. was carrying a twenty one centimeter dagger designed to penetrate armor And he'd used it to stab eighteen year old Henry Novak multiple times When the police arrived on the scene, because of that nine hundred ninety nine call They thought Novak was the attacker And they handcuffed and arrested him as he lay dying begging for help Earlier this week, Digwa was sentenced to life in prison, and that call and footage from the scene were made public, sparking outrage I suggest the rest of us Respond to this with pure Cold rage This is wrong The whole world has now seen in Henry's video is what we all know anyway. It's a different treatment for white people compared to non whites Violent protests broke out in South Hampton while Westminster went to war Can he take some action, end this divisive practice of two tier policing and make sure that all British citizens are treated the same Nigel Farage faced jeers in Parliament for not condemning the violence in Southampton Prime Minister responded Exploiting this tragedy Trade grievance and division be wrong in any circumstances, but to do it when the family are expressly saying Please don't is unforgivable Is there a system of two tier policing in the UK Does the guidance need to change And would any of that have made a difference? to the tragic case of Henry Novak story today What the Henry Novak murder means for the police. It was about eleven PM in Sampton, in Hampshire. In december twenty twenty five, Victram Diga was with his older brother Gerbfried be making food deliveries for the food delivery company deliveru And they were just finishing off their shift for the day That's Matt Dathason, home affairs editor at the Times. eightighteen year old Henry Novak was walking along nearby.'d been a A short evening out coming to the end of his first home university. He'd just been to the hobbit pub popular with students in Samton. And u The first video we have of the incident of Vicra Digois taken from Henry Novak' Snapchat video actually at eleven eighteen PM because Henry had got out his phone when he came across become Diga. because he spotted it Diga carrying a large knife carried openly in a sheath on the outside of his clothes. and an argument between the pair broke out Pron on Belmont Road Because Novak asked Igwa whether he's a bad man Novak films himself. cheekily, asking to go if he's a bad man for carrying that knife and diger says, yes, he is and snatches Novak's phone and ends the video fromrom that moment. very much escalates and the starbing takes place, Dig the Tk out his twenty one centimeter long ceremonial dagger and stabbed Novak five times And we now know that he he severed a major vein behind his collar bone. And then Digor goes back to his older brother Gerprie, who' been sitting in the car. tells his brother he's been the victim of a racist attack And then shortly afterwards, eleven twenty PM g rate calls nine hundred and nine and we have the recording of that. and then shortly after it was eleven thirty seven, the police arrived instead of immediately treating Novak and believing Novak. Trutfully telling the police officers that he'd been stabbed. I'll step back a little bit for mom. Someone flagg these down H hope it start. R right, let's get it out of there, shall we? . A minute after arriving, the police handcuff him and arrest him on suspicion of racial assaults and read out his rights. At the moment you are under arrest, that's for assaults. so you do not have to say anything mayharm and defense if you do not make your own questions S which you later line the court. Anything you do say, maybe given evidence, right? But he's repeatedly telling officers, as we see in the body comf footage that he's been stabbed. He repeatedly says, I think about eleven times, I can't breathe. says he needs an ambulance. You've beenurb whereabouts a y, mate gry Put the hand in the cuff mate. Officers finally start performing CPR in novak after realising he is seriously unwell and they discover he has a stab wound on his Chest. Several stuff rooms. Are we able to get an ourb p? These pupils aren't even reacting And then it takes several minutes before Diggo himself is arrested for attempted murder And then thirty seven minutes past midnight, deecember the fourth Henry is very tragically declared dead So within the bll an hour, he's been stubbed and declared dead and a pathologist later found that More than two liters of blood was found in his chest cavity Six months on, it's gone through court. Diga has been found guilty Earlier this week, he was sentenced to life in prison But since then The news around this case is just Blown up It's dominated the political week in Westminster, but when I was getting messages last week from Ps and others warning about how this case was going to blow up politically once the sentence had been handed down It's gone far beyond Westminster as well. It's one of the main topics that is trending and being chatted about on on various different social media platforms and it's also engaged yet again the mind and the key board of Elon Musk and lots of people in America on the right wing. So yes, yet yet another incident on the streets of the UK that has gone global with lots of claims, counterc claims, political rs and also a lot of misinformation that has led to one former police officer having to go into hiding One aspect that's drawn a lot of anger has been the police's own guidelines on how officers should respond too incidents like this and to all crime in general, really, Just talk us through the guidance What does it actually say? So this guidance was published in march twenty twenty five. It was National Police Chief's Council had put out a page on its website titled the annti racist commitment, which was an updated a brief update on its race action plan that had been published a couple of years earlier. And the guidance said officers should respond to individuals and communities according to their specific needs, circumstances and experiences. with understanding that these will be racialized and with the aim of reducing harm It does not mean treating everyone Qote, the same or being colorblind Frack' racial equality, the Gaid said. also warned officers that they should be aware of the risk that the police criminalize people and that arrest and charge rates should be made equal between groups, even though levels of criminality are different It caused a bit of a controversy last year. because it came in the middle of another row about alleged two tier sentencing guidelines that have been published by the sentencing cououncil. and it just so happened that actually Saban Rammouud, who was the Justice Secretary at the time responded to these guidelines, which had been F first raised by Robert Genrick, who had time as the shadow Justice secretary reatated a big political storm about claims that judges were working on guidelines that would that instructed them to treat peopleeople from ethnic minorities differently from others in order to equalize racial outcomes. amongst different ethnic groups know, huge questions are being asked about whether it's fair to decide that you've got to try and make arresturate and charge rates equal between different groups when obviously We know that different groups are more or less likely to commit particular crimes. I mean it would be as mad as saying you should be arresting as many women for online grooming crimes as you are men when That isn't you know, that isn't what you're actually seeing in real life. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think that's how a lot of people read the guidance, but I don't think the guidance was instructing the officers to try and equalize the racial outcomes in that way, but it caused a lot of controversy and And it led on Tuesday night to the Home Secretary while describing as clumsy and the National Police Chief's Council have since vowed to review the guidance and made clear that it wasn't formal policy, wasn't part of formal training, but it was a part of its anti racism commitment So while people are asking questions about that National Police Chief's Council, NPCC guidance We also learnnt that there was separate guidance that had been put out by the Hampshire and Isle of White Constabulary, which would cover this part of Southampton where the crime took place. Tell us about that? Yes, I'm sure an I of work sububmary. It has its own, I mean, each police force has its own and published his own race action plan stemming from the national plan And in this force's Mace action planet advises its officers to understand the impact trauma and history of policing ethnic minorities And so yet again this It sparked questions of whether the police force is treating people from ethnic moralities in the same way with equal treatment as others and sparked a debate about whether this kind of anti racism guidance should be should exist and should be scrapped. Aside from the guidance on how to police, the other questions that are being asked are actually about the laws around carrying knives Tell us a bit about the argument there. suuccessive governments have introduced increasingly restrictive rules and laws about the possession of knives There are exemptions for people who can carry and certain weapons for religious reasons. but It's very clear that an the Sih Federation put out a statement on this that the weapon that Vikram Digwa was carrying and used to stab Henry Novak with would not qualify for the exemption. It was too long. It wasn't a religiously protected Kurpan which Sikhs are allowed to carry. It certainly wasn't blunt But it again, it did He did spark a bit of a debate about whether there should be exemptions and reform UK have come out I think they're the only political party that have committed to to banning the religious exemption The protections are and the exemptions are very limited and it's quite clear in this case if he had been stopped by police in the street, for example, he would have by the law been arrested for possession of an illegal weapon Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I'm from the Sih community and I've never seen a knife like that before. A standard Gpan is sort of a blunted symbolic blade, I guess. So this really is not standard All of this controversy and protests and quite violent pnds since then that have broken out are raising questions about the policy around policing, about how race issues are dealt with As word as about knife crime. And that comes with a backdrop of you know, quite a history of the police and racism. justust remind us a bit about why so many of these policies have emerged and why there are guidelines on how to handle different racial groups Well, yes, I mean, I guess ever since the murder of Stephen Lawrence, the McFerson report found institutial racism in the police, there's been increasing the focus on driving out racism I guess the most kind of relevant and recent moment was the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the US And actually going back to the Salpton case and what you mentioned about the Hampshire Unaw Cubbury in their gardens, they actually describe this as a pivotal moment for policing in the UK driving the need for change, even though it happened in the U.S. there is a So a growown belief, I guess, and Jack Straw, the former homeome secret, actually express this In the Daily teleraphed today in which he said that he thinks the drive to Rout A Racism in UK policing has gone too far and actually gone the other way. and actually there is a question about whether actually police forces are and police officers are instructed to police our communities equally and that has led to the debate debate and claims of two tier policing where people claim Police are treating ethnic minorities differently to other people Coming up We'll be talking to a former special branch officer O what it's like to arrive on the scene of a crime like this as a member of the police That's in just a moment I began my police career at Southort, which was not too far away from where I lived. So as a young PC, I was introduced to the Asian community That's Chris Hobbs, a retired metropolitan police officer He was at the metet for thirty two years So in my time really at Southough I got to know a huge number of people even though I was in plain clothes and a huge number of people got to know me. And I think over the years I was with Southvill in just about every crisis that it encountered And for people who don't know the area, we should say Southall is a place where about a quarter of the population is sik. It has huge Gurdwaras, these places of worship for the Sikh community Did you have difficulty policing the Sikh community? now, given the exemptions in terms of carrying weapons? Was that ever a problem? No, no, it wasn't. Shortly after I retired I got a message from the Sikh temple, the biggest Sikh Temple in the country in Havalot Road Would I go down there on a Sunday, which is their day of religious observance? I went down there and they very kindly presented me with a ceremonial sword. They really? Yeah for work that I'd done previously. so they hadn't forgotten which I was tremendously honoud and I'm looking at it now Chris, you clearly have so many years of policing very difficult crime scenes under your belt Taking you to. This horrific case, the case of Henry Novak describe for us what is it like as a policeman to arrive on the scene For an incident like that It is very difficult I have to say because what you have to do is basically make her what we would call a dynamic risk assessment where you've got to assess everything that's going on. And you also have to be very aware of your own safety and the safety of people around you including the victim And to try and make some sort of assessment of what had occurred Passions of course are running extremely high and people are shouting at you and then you're trying to have to try and make sense of it all And it's not easy. Yeah I mean, because of the video footage of that moment, we've all been able to see and assess the police's performance as they arrive and in those first few minutes, what did you as somebody with your experience make of it I think I should have to say that I read the judges views first before I saw the video So it was interesting that in the judges sentencing comments that he made There was absolutely no criticism of the police officer whatsoever He appreciated the difficulty that the police officer or the police officers found The fact that the blood wasn't visible through Henry's clothing because he was wearing dark clothing. and it was dark So when I read that, I thought it was a fair assessment. I mean, it is horrifying knowing the details of the injuries and what Henry was going through. There are probably Policing procedures around improvements to the first aid process that might come out of this One of the other things that people are calling for though is looking at the guidelines that have been issued to the police. and whether they were influencing the way the police behaved, whether there was what people are calling a two tier police system What do you make of that Personally, I don't believe it I think the officer was dealing with a situation as he saw it If we want to look at it generally Two tier policing at the moment has become the fashion for those on the political right, but everyone complains from right to left from various ethnic groups that there is two tier policing They all claim that the police are guilty of two tier policing against them. I think When police turn up to these events they would normally treat everyone the same. if you're a white victim of knife crime and you're lying there Or if you're a black victim of knive crime, a line there or if you're an Asian victim of knive crime and you're ling there, police will do their best for you. They will try and save your life If they can't save your life what happens and it's veryy rarely referred to. is that if the patient or the victim is conscious police officer will then try offer some comfort even though it's clear to the officer that there's no more can be done for that person. What is sad is that didn't happen to Henry and what needs to happen now. is to make sure that that situation can never ever happen again. But by large, I don't accept this two tier policing. It's something that really does again the morale of officers which at the moment is crashing through the floor anyway and this incident will make it I don't think it can fall any further But it won't help the current situation or the fact that officers are hemorrhaging out of the police service Chris, you mentioned that a lot of people think there's a two tier system and people think it for a completely different reasons. It is hard to know how seriously to take those criticisms. but people have been talking about specific guidelines issued by the NPCC issued by the Hampshire and Isle of White Constabulary, which would have govern the actions of this police force which talked about not really treating people the same, but sort of treating them differently and understanding that there was sort of a difference between communities. Do you think that might have cause confusion on the scene here. I'm not sure that it did to be quite honest. At the same time, I'm not sure that this guidance is particularly wise. Part of the problem is that officers do feel that they are walking on eggshells to a certain extent in that allegations of racism are easy to make against police officers O course once they're made that can cause a whole lot of trouble for those officers which can go on for months or years before they're exonerated or not E of this week, you know, we've seen effectively riots on the streets of Southampton. We've seen the police come under fire Where does it leave police force and for that matter, the Sih community, which you've had so much contact with As far as the police service are concerned They feel vulnerable. It wasn't just the riot that occurred It was what went with it. Now what you had on social media were attempts to identify the officers who were involved in that particular incident So you've got all this going on. And then of course, you remember Wayne Cousins and David Carrac got this business of collective smearing as I call it. So every police officer is effectively smeared as being a rogger And then you got the Skh Federation basically put out a statement saying, lookook, please don't collectively smear us. So I think the Sikh community all of a sudden felt that they too being collectively smeared because of the actions of Diguis and and his brother. So I think that that's an unfortunate byproduct. Now whether that's going whether that stigma or collective smearing is going to stay, only time will tell. I think there's been some indications that seeks have been racially abused in the street because of what's happened So yeah, I think that's a real hammer blow to the Sk. So I think I've always felt well integrated into UK society generally are well thought of. And they're also, of course, concerned that their religious symbol isn't taken away from them Again, it's a byproduct of this awful tragedy There's been a huge political row over this story We heard from the pololicing minister earlier this week What has she said about the guidance Sah Jones said that the guidance is clums in wrong and should be reviewed quickly while also saying that The National Police Chief's Council and the Cege of pololice which draw up the training and the guidance that police officers should follow while also insisting that they are independent. But clearly the political circumstances around the fallout from Henry Novak's case will lead to changes in the way that police officers are told to police and treat people from different ethnic minorities in the UK So there will be changes to the guidance now Well, I mean, the NPCC have committed to reviewing the guidance and I can't see that the guidance will remain unchanged And the Chief Cstable of Hampshire pololice has also come out and apologized Yes, on Wednesday, the Chief Cable of the Force issued an apology for the actions of his officers. We are apologizing and have apologized for the fact that Henry was arrested. and that he was handcuffed at that time. You know, we are apologizing for that and we're very sorry for that but dead eyed allegations of two tier policing. I would refute that. I would say absolutely not. I see officers day in day out on the grounds serving without fear or favour all our communities. and I think that's the case nationally And that was Also what erkir Stara said.raker, I don't believe there's two tier of policing in this country. and Sist armour in saying that has actually gone much further I think than some of his colleagues at Shibana Mahammood quite a lot of questions in the comments on Tuesday about two of policing. and at no point did she say what Stama said, which outright rejecting it. and Sarah Jones also reject that term. and I think they are treading a careful line because they recognise that There were lots of questions here about the way in which officers treated Henry Novach and responded to the case on the ground And obviously they can't go too far because there is an independent investigation into the officers. and so I think we have to wait until That is concluded before the government may or may not go much further So Matt, what happens next? So there's the independent police conduct investigation which will determine whether the officers guilty or not guilty of misconduct, whether they acted on in line with their training, etceter and the practices. I mean there's further C cases around perpetrator victim Stiga and also some of his family members still to come relating to the possession of knives, et cetera Histed armour is meeting father of Henry Noak, Mark Noobak in Downing Street on Thursday night And then there's likely to be further unrest that we saw on Tuesday night And then there's likely to be further political fallout becausecause of Starmer's decision to attack Nigel Farage, it primes his questions yesterday for tracing division and grievance and capitalizing on the murder of Henry Novak for political gain. And Matt, you mentioned Henry Novak's family We've all just heard about this case over the last week. They've been living with the tragedy of it since December What do they want to see happen now Well, they made very clear in the statement that they don't want theirir son's murdder to be used to create division in society. We want to use Henry's partbreaking story to make change for the better We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. We want his story to make our street safer for everyone I think they want their concerns about the way in which their son was treated by police officers dealt with, investigated, and And then they want their son's murder to lead to a change in the way that police carry out their duties and make sure that they treat everyone fairly. No other family should experience the heartbreak and horror of losing a child tonight pr Finally, I want Henry to know Wherever he is We are so proud of him we love him beyond words Thank you It was Matt Daysason, homeome affairs editor at the Times and Chris Hobes, a retired police officer Producers today were Olivia Case, Collleette Fountain, and Sophie McNulty The executive producers were Kate Lambble and Edward Drummond, and sound design and theme composition were by Marlaetto Thanks for listening. I know it's not an easy topic Apologies too for my croaky voice We'll be back as usual tomorrow T dis an in