Final Thoughts on The City and the City

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Limitations exclusions may apply Sior sevay day return policy, cararbona You are being watched Sword and Laser has a secret system, a machine that spies on what you read every hour of every day We know because we built it Go to patreon. com slash sword and laser and pledge support to the machine Hey everyone, welcome to the Sord Laser. I'm Vonica Balman and I'm Tom Marritt Sord Lazer is a book club but it's so much more. We bring you news from the world of science fiction and fantasy, and of course, awesome discussions from fans just like you Hey, happy twentieth anniversary of Bzz Out Loud. I was in Japan, that people no idea Yeah what we're talking about. So back in the day, Tom and I and Molly Wood all co hosted a well startred with Tom and Molly, and then I weaselled my way onto the show eventually. Very shortly after it started It was one of the first tech podcasts out there in the world of podcasting, it was at that time, a very small community And I think we were one of the only daily shows for a year. Yeah, once we went daily, I'm pretty sure we were the first daily podcast, mayaybe not the first, who knows, but march thirtieth, two thousand five. So podcasting had only been around for a year when we started Oh my gosh, that's unbelievable. That's so crazy. Like YouTube just started in two thousand five Yeah. Like I don't even know if YouTube had started then at that point that month. U But yeah, that was my first experience prodroucing a show, the first time I co hosted a show And that's what brought Tom and I together and we started hosting this show not too long thereafter. So Stick with us. I think there's a pretty good chance we'll be making it to the twentieth swword and Laser anniversary one of these days. That's wild to think about I think in my head, I think, well there was Buzz Out Loud for many years, then we started Sword and Laser. Like it's a newer show. But it's really a new show. It's really only like two years younger That's brighten. That's terrifying. They're almost exactly the samege. That's amazing That is pretty funny And gosh, we were just babies. I was just a twenty I was twenty something. Yes, you were a baby I mean, I was was. I was already deffinitely man Tom was like unknowably old to me at that point. Vastly older. vastly. Ah and now we are but kin But anyway, so that's congratulations. I did send a little video thing in for that. So that was fun to fun to make and reminisce about a little bit. Yeah, and if you go to the Buzztown Wiki, there is a full ninety minute episode of at buzztownarchchive dot com com There's a full ninety minute episode of me, Molly, Veronica, Nate Lankson, a bunch of folks putting together E So thanks to Amos and all the folks who help put that together. That was really fun. Amazing. And some of you in the audience right now have been with us for that whole time as well So that is that's one of my favorite parts about doing this show and all of these shows are just the communities that move from one adventure to another together and Jason B is like, didnid't you work at Cena in the nineties? No, I worked at tech TV in the nineties. or it was ZD TV at the time I didn't get to see it until two thousand fourth And I joined in two thousand five And that's why we started the podcast because Veronica joined CNet. And we're like, we're gonna need her to have something to do in a while. So we better start a podcast There you go. There you go Anyho let's move on to the back into the current world and talk about what are we gnawing U In an effort to avoid talking about a Tavala meal, I will mention that I just ate a sumo Mandarin orange. Oh, I love those. They're the best, aren't they Some I feel like they're very polarizing. Really I feel like people either don't like them or don't like Like they're not sweet enough. I think they're very sweet. They can be I like them when they're tart They can be sweet sometimes. It kind of just depends on the batch. I like them when they're kind of dried out a little bit That's what I love the most about them is they're super juicy. easy to peel Yeah Like the peel just comes away easy and when they're dried out just a little bit. They're still juice, they're so juicy that they don't taste dry They just peel perfectly. And the pulp like separates really nicely.'re very there's a lot of stuff about them that I find very appealing Yay, I see what you do. I didn't mean to do that. Anyway, that's one of my favorite things to eat in the world. I generally buy these if they're available, even though they're more expensive. And when they're out of season and I can't get them, I'm very sad till they come back Yeah, I buy them, I buy a lot of them For sure U it is Cadbury egg season. Soy when I see Cadbury eggs. Do you? Yeah, it's kind of a thing. it's kind of a thing. I'm trying to I'm trying to reel it in a little bit this year. but my mom sent me a box of Calgury cream eggs from the United States which I was very grateful for. but I did need to remind her But we do have these here. Yeah, and they're better because they're made with sugar instead of corn syrup right U, I you know, it doesn't Really? Sure, I'm sure they're better, but it's more like, do I really need to be eating these Azer about two year old foot tall Cadbury egg they made. Oh geez, no. the Cadbury people No, I didn't know about. A least she didn't send you that one Yeah And I got held up at customs and I just love the idea that the customs agents were like She knows they sell these here, right? Like She doesn't have to pay I have to pay import money. Import fees. to send these anyway But it was very sweet. She we've literally That was like my wholeah. I don't celebrate Easter or anything, but we still do like bunny magic kind of like at our house. Yeah Yeah. you celebrate Easter the way people celebrate Halloween Right Right. Very few people celebrate All Saints D, but no. I probably celebrate Halloween much different than most people celebrate Halloween And I celebrate Easter the way most people celebrate Halloween. Okay Yeah. I see what you Thatakesense. Yeah. Yeah, ye, gototcha Um Oh yeah, give me that give me that animated gif of pulling that egg apart. Yeah. I don't want to see that. I want to see the insides. What if somebody made Cadbury omu rice? Oh, I think that exists. I think I actually ha actually se that. ye. Wow I'm sure that exists. that has to exist. Anyway, so yeah, I'm I plan on eating one tonight before bed. That's my whole story for do it all day So that's If that makes you happy, as they say It can't be that bad. can't be that bad All right, let's jump into the quick burns Both count zero or and Trike pointed out the Murderbot trailer dropped today as we're recording this show and will in advance of the appearance of Murderbot on Apple TV may sixteenth. didid you get a chance to see it yet I loved it. I allowed the tone of it to be kind of fifth element. Some people were calling it Deadpool, which I can see too. It was a little more comedic than I would have expected But it's a trailer Everything about it was awesome The fact that you even got clips of sanctuary moon in the trailer I knew I was coming in the show, but that's amazing. m so excited That't I didn't know that was coming in the show. So that was like a very hilarious Easter egg almost, I guess, but it's like a main part of the show. so that's cool Um Sars Gard. Okay I'm I'm bo're there. Yeah. I'm on board. I'm on board. I think he's still want to see more, but I'm mostly on board everythingvery I saw in this trailer was good. I'm so I've beenm like I I still need a little more little more Prof to get to get perfectly comfortable but so far so good. Yeah, I thought the casting for all the characters was really good. It felt very faithful to the first book already like character wise. crew. I was like, oh, that's exactly how I pictured them. Like the styling and the hair and all of that is really well done Yeah, and just the I I'm I'm happy. Yeah, I'm I'm already happy and I've only seen already seen just seen the trailer. I mean, and It makes me even more excited about it. So I am I'm pumped. Iven't pumped about a TV show like this in a while. so I don't want to get too excited I think one of the things that got me the most excited is I know this is a trailer for people who don't know the novels and I know that these are not the funniest things that Murderbot does Right And so seeing these and being and being entertained, I'm like, oh, I can't wait till we get the real thing. likeike that that's going to be awesome There were there were some pretty choice lines in there that felt very murder body. Yeah. I think when when I think it was like Gothin is like You could have killed me and he was like didn't die or something like it was something like that. And he's like, but you didn't. Yeah I was like, okay It just yeah, it feels it feels it feels right. It's right, man. ready My body is ready. I'm very excited.. Why do we have to wait another month? That's ridiculous. whole month Anyho, moving on, Seth says happappy National Library Week in the USA What a time to be a library So actually, Seth went on to cite many of the reasons that it's important to celebrate libraries. I didn't want to bring us down. I think we all know Um So you know, the important thing is visit your library, encourage a friend to get a library card, browse the shelves. Those are the things the libraries want you to do. and you can make talk T to your libraryence. Yeah, you know, show There's so many events, there's like book clubs, there's like All sorts of even non book related things that your local library does really well Um, My library, even though I'm in Canada, it has like little phone booth rooms that you can rent for the day if you want to go take your calls in there. We've got like they've got like, you know, kids story time. There's teens teen time where they can come in and just hang out be like in a safe comfortable place to quietly together. Like there's so much libraries do. it's So much more beyond books. If you're like, I don't know, I'm busy working, go work in the library they actually it's quiet. It's a good place to do that. If you're like, no, no, I'm busy looking for a job, goo do your job hunting library. They have resources that can make it easier for you. Like whatever you're doing Probably could be done in the library except I don't know, maybe eat a muffin or something. I cannot take my all day Zoom calls in the library unfortunately. I totally hog the phone booth room. I don know though. They sometimes have spaces for louder things too. like yeah. J Go to the library and find out. Maybe it's not a place for that, but you know, go visit. You never know Yeah. check it out And if you're like, I don't leave the house, use Libby Go to your librarys website. You could still Get involved with the library ort your library. Ver good U Shaminade and Jeff both pointed out that the Hugo shortlist for World Con Seattle is out Here are the nominees for best novel Alien Clay by Adrian Chaikvsky. The Ministry of Time by Collan Bradley, serervice model by Adrian GZaikovsky. Adrian Chchaiskovsky might split the vote with Adrien TZaikovsky. someomeone you can build a nest in by John Wiswell. A sorceress came to call by T. Kingfisher and The Tainted Cup by Robert Jackson Bett U Shaman or I think it was Jeff noted for the first time I can remember I've read them all before the nominations serervice model or the Tainted Cup Are my favorites, says Jeff, but they're all good We did read Robert Jackson Benet, didn't we We have read a Robert Jackson Bennett novel in the past. We did not read the The Tainted And it was like a good one, but it wasn't my favorite one. It stairs. feel like Yeah, the City of Stairs. And I feel like Like he's he's put out so many Is that why we kept thinking even better the city in the city because we read the City of Stairs That's possible, I guess Yeah But I have read the city in the city before. so that was also part of the. That was also why you thought you had read it before. Yes, because I did actually Be you read it before. We did read the Ministry of Time Yes. So it's going to win, right Probably because it's the only one we've read so far. although by the time they vote, maybe we'll have read more of these. Wh knows? I know. I'm behind. I feel like I'm behind. I gott to catch up on some of these. Anway the problem with the ps is we've read body but John. Well, have we read we have read tee King Fisher, right Yes But we have not read John Wiswell Sing Fisher was Nettle and bone. Yeah, ye. See. Thank you.. Quest not to repeat auters. My brain. I didn't even look it up or read it from the chat. I did it all by myself. Yeah. No,ouse house of the Cerulean C is TJ Klon Yeah, so so in our effort not to repeat authors, John Wiswell would be the only one on this list wouldould be easy to read. so I guess I'll read that one. I guess we'll read that one We can't repeat authors. We just have have to have a very good reason Yeah, I know we can. I just I I yeah, I don't like rereading books and I don't like for the show rereading authors just because it stresses me out because I feel like there's so much out there. There's so many authors, that's the principle is there's so many authors, very deserving authors that we haven't got to. There's so many new deserving authors publishing for the first time all the time. that when we repeat, it's putting off those people as well Sery says, I must be really rested. killing it tonight. I think you know, Mercury is out of retrograde So is Venus. so I think it's that, honestly I think it'ser wondering, too. I think it's the multiv vitamins it might be the multivitamins. U it's the NAC. Working on my brain.. All right. And then Mark also says that the SFWA has named Nicola Griffith as the forty first Damon Knight Memorial Grand Master There's somebody we could read. I don't think we've read a Nickola Griffith yet. We have We have not. No. The Grandmaster recognizes lifetime achievement in science fiction and fantasy is named after author Damon Knight Founder of the SFWA and the organization. We did read Sere. We read Sar. We readar. Oh, we did. you're right. We did. Oh, wow. See, that's why You can't become grandmaster without having been a sword and laser pick. We should have known that. so Former former grandmasters included Peter S. Biegel, Connie Willis, Nailo Hopkinson Ursula Kay Lg Guinn, Ray Bradbury, Anne McAaffrey, Robin McKinley, Joe Halderman and other legends of genre fiction. We were there in the year that it was M A Is it Stalzy Ah no. No It's right on the tip of my tongue. I can't remember It wasnty I feel like it was Anna Caffrey, but she wasn't there, was she or was she there? and I freaked out and couldn't talk to her Or was the one of the two Quite certainly. Anyway. U what year was that? Oh, was it Lowis Mcmaster Bouge old Yes. That's what it was. Yes. And we did talk to her and she was very nice. She was wonderful, yeah. She was wonderful. She was so nice. okay. coming up It's all coming up Belmont. It's those Cadbury eggs Yeah., Seth says, Oh, best is yours. I'll read it, whatever. Seth says, the S andL bump strikes again with the Ministry of Time, this time is on the shortlist for the brand new climate Fiction prize And honestly, it goes right along with the next one. The long list for the Women's Prize for Fiction has been announced. It's mostly lit fick, but the nominees include Sword and Laser Pick The Ministry of Time by Collanne Bradley, another example of the Sword and Laser bump Yeah She's crushing it I think that means that the Ministry of Time is going to win the Hugo, and I think it means that everyone who criticized this pick is wrong Yeah, you know that's just are just the facts. I'm sorry. These are just facts. This is just objective truth. I know years For years, I've been saying like everybody has their own opinion. You bring your own things into a story. There's no wrong opinions. No, in this case, you're wrong We don't make the rules. These are just the facts. Yeah We don't make the rules All right, and kind of sad news, Nano Rimo shuts down as a foundation It could not continue because of funding. Yeah, a lot of people are thinking it has to do with their stance on AI. And certainly the stance on AI caused a few people to remove their support, which didn't help. Maybe that hastened the end But every everything I was reading is that this was going to happen no matter what They just they just weren't able to continue to get people to help fund them as an organization There's a few people out there saying, well, there's no reason Nano Ramo can't happen anyway if you wanted to, just start writing in November. That's how it began. It was informally organized and it only became a foundation because so many people were doing it. So just because the foundation shut down doesn't mean people can't you know, continue to do this if they want to, but it is kind of an end of an era For sure, for sure So that's, yeah, it's hard It's a hard thing to run a nonprofit. It's a hard thing to generate income for something that Ultimately anyone can do on their own, as you mentioned and then to take a somewhat controversial stance you know, that was That was It seemed like you're right that it potentially lost support for that reason from not only board members, but also some of the general public and their followers Sad times As Tom said, you can always keep writing. You don't you don't need a foundation to get you to write. And you know, you could one thousand six hundred and sixty seven words a day. One I never really hard in the community aspect as much as I should have. I haven't done Nanorimo in several years, but there was a long streak there where I did it every year and got some really good books out of it. But I almost always just used it as a tool to track my progress, which I could just do on my own And if you need that community aspect, I bet you can wrestle up a few other people online to, you know keepe each other encouraged through the month That's right. I'm sure the Reddits will pop up. Discords will pop up. they haven't already. There will be communities to fill the void We have not read Nicola We't re we didn't read. We read the spear that cuts through water by Simone Jimenez. I have read spear We did not read it for sorded laser then Dang. okay. well, I think I've read it too because I was as soon as you said it I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that book Yeah I definitely read it. So we both read it, but it was never a cord and laser pick That's okay Well, it still could be. It still could be.'s anything could be. They have many other books as well with guild I wanted to read, so there you go. Allright, well now it is time for Bear your sword, which is our feedback from the audience When TRP saw the title Book Goblin, they thought Tom and Veronica would mention Elizabeth Wheatley. She's an Indie author who writes in the fantasy genre. She is a queen of TikTok and YouTube self promotion and created a voracious book reading character called Book Goblin Read her book Dangerous Assassin and can definitely recommend it Uh this is an example of what I call bubbles There are so many bubbles that all of us are in. This is not pointed at TRP that it sometimes it feels like how could you not know about the book goblin? And I wonder myself how I could not know about the book goblin. But social media creates these bubbles where you're in a bubble with literally thousands of people. so it seems like everyone knows about something. And yet here we are, as Tom and Veronic are going, Huh, that's cool. Thanks for sharing S Ray says, to be fair, Tomahome tried to get you to recognize that during the stream. Yeah. I still didn't I still didn't know who she was. Tomahome doesn't exist. We have unseen Tomahome. Oh They're in a separate chatroom. They're in the Berlean chatroom So we can't we can't see those chats. Yeah. I can't see I have a picture of Felicia. I can't see that picture. Yeah. That's not Felicia today. No, I've seen that. There's no picture of there Well anyway thats that's cool. I will check out her stuff. Yeah. Yeah. good good to put the book goblin on the radar. Thank you Tasszy Dave says, the question was asked, How often have we read The March Madness Runner up In the nine years of March Madness, the runner up has not ended up as a pick eventually, only three times. twenty sixteen was the tie. Both books read, The fifth season was an alt pick twenty seventeen, Howell's mooving Castle was a pick in twenty twenty twenty eighteen, Solus was an alt pick twenty nineteen neverever picked the first fifteen liives of Harry August twenty twenty, never picked the City of Brass I've read it though. I've read. twenty twenty one Never picked, gos of Jade and Shadow. Haven't read twenty twenty two, Children of Time was a pick in twenty twenty three. twenty twenty three, Children of timee was a pick in twenty twenty three twenty twenty four. Emily Wild's Encyclopedia Fairies was a pick in twenty twenty four. Okay There's more sets Thank you, Tess. Soay Children of Time was the runner up in both twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three And then we finally eventually read it in twenty twenty three I guess so. Yeah, I think it was the runner up in twenty twenty two and we didn't pick it. And then in twenty twenty three, we were like, well, it keeps being a runner up. let's pick it. Then twenty twenty four is when we're like, well we did it last year, but I kind of want to do it again because Emily Wild's Encyclopedia Fairy sounds great. So we did it. And that's what started the like, o oh, it feels like we're always picking the runner up. I see. I see. Okay, so no, we I mean we went We really It was really only Children of Tim that started the trend Yeah. How's mooving Castle was picked for an entirely separate reason. Be it was And that was many years apart Yeah ye Fascinating. Yeah,s that's cool. That's why data, you know, data just helps create the full picture. so important. Not Lure though. You want to stay away from lore, just data Oh my Godd I understand that reference Uh withith Veronica expressing a boundless love for all things cheese Sean wanted to pass along an amazing landmark between Milwaukee and Chicago called the Mars Cheese Castle. You can see the website at Marschheese dot comot Should you ever make it to Wisconsin? It's a fun location to try a variety of Wisconsin cheese. Most restaurants will offer fried cheese curds, but I would recommend trying fresh cheese curds as well Fresh cheese curds are lovingly referred to as squeaky cheese. everver yours, Seaan PS, I failed to find the Barrier swword link on Goodreads, which is why I sent you this email Thank you This looks like a place I want to visit. I have also heard Hllumi called Squeaky Cheese before. Oh yeah. It also has a similarly squeaky, crunchy, not crunchy? like M Sensation I know you can't see my mouth, but I think you can all understand I can shpe if I'm making with it when I go And it's disturbing. That squeaky feeling It's frighten Yeah. they I have a embarrassing admission. What? What you don't you've never had cheese curds? In August I drove past the Mars Cheese castle and did not stop And you were like, that place looks cool, but I'm not gonna to make the time for that. I was booking it from Chicago to Green Bay to visit my brother Uh and I only had a certain amount of time You know, because I was driving up to see him, spend the day. then I was driving back to Milwaukee and I was flying out the next morning So I wanted to maximize my brother time, but I did have a little time on the way up because he was doing some work And I chose to spend it eating at Culver's instead of going to the Worst Cheese Castle But you can get culver so many places. Not here in LA. There's no colds here. Utah, you can. M, I not in Utah. Also, it's like It's like going to an in and out somewhere that's not. where in and out's from, right? Is it really the same? Is Culververs where you sent me the S from That wased card frozen custard in Saintouis Missouri. That's where I said things So I've been hearing a lot about culvers recently. I've never eaten at one. There is one in the town that my mother in law lives at in Utah and I tried to go there because I saw that they had frozen custard And Ryan and I got into a big fight because he was like, frozen custard isn't even that good And I said How dare you Tom sent us all of that frozen custard? And he said, just because Tom sent us a freezer full of frozen custard didn't make it good. Didn't make me like it I said, I hate that. That's not true I got really mad. alsoso I think I got really weird flavors when I said it to you too That was the best part. Yeah I liked all the weird flavors. I thought there was like a cherry one. I really liked I had picked one regular flavor like cherry and then there was like Jumbalaya or something I don't know.pp There was like a peppermint. Yeah. Like a peppermint patty or something that was really good. Anyway So okay, Zanar says the color his custard is pretty good I didn't have the frozen custard because I'm a Ted Drews man. but did ye I did have cheese cururds, fried cheese cururds when I went to Culver'. love cheese cururds. It was really everyone had been telling me, you have to go to Culver' when you're in Wisconsin. They're the best when you're in Wisconsin and we don't have a Culver's in LA. And I needed to eat a meal M rather than just samples of cheese Looks like they have sandwiches. Yeah, I probably could have done fine if I had gone to the Mars. I Basically this whole thing is me regretting my decision. notot that I don't I get it. I get it, but you right there really should have beenone there cheese castle. This person out of the kindness of his heart, Sean D. Wale emailed us to tell us to go to Mars Cheese A castle of cheese. A castle of cheese You to be fair, you didn't know how famous it was at the time. All you did is you drove by I saw a literal castle. You knew it was famous? I mean, I knew it was famous, yeah Aw man. I didn't have a personal recommendation like from Sean I love local stuff like that. If I see like, oh man, love I love kichchy, like local specialties, it's my by Jam Well anyway, thank you Sean. I do not know When I will ever make it to Wisconsin, I've never been But if I do go there, I promise I will go to Mars cheese The next time I visit my brother, which frankly doesn't happen as often as it should, but maybe this willll help motivate me, I will go to Mars Cheese Castle Should we talk about books? Yes. Dungeon Crawler Marl March Madness winner as foretold by everyone once it was nominated. In fact, even before it was nominated, everybody's like, it' going to be people are going to nominate Dungeon Crawler Carl and it's going to win. And yes, it did. It blew everyone else out of the water I'll be honest, that kind of set me against it a little bit. Not like I'm going to hate it, but I was like, this book better be as good as everybody says, right? I was going in it with a little bit of a side eye of like, I don't know. Everybody seems to think this is great Great. I'm beginning book three tonight Yeah, I finished. I was about to start book too. Yeah. There is some debate about whether it's a standalone book or not. There's some folks who are like, that just kind of ends in the middle of the story. I don't like that Um And I think that's fair But if you go straight into book two, like I did you don't notice. You just never stop reading. and it's one big, long book. As I said in the book briefing, this began as a web novel. So it really I don't think was conceived of as a book in a series. It was just conceived of as a ongoing story and that shows. But to me it's a very good ongoing story. So while the criticisms of where they end in book one, I think are valid It's not like it's a horrible ending. It's just an ending that very much implies there's more story to come, not that you've had any kind of resolution. to the to the overall story. But man, I definitely am digging the vibe on this book. I'm doing the audiob book, which I think makes a difference too because the performance is so good Yeah. So I saw people in Discord saying that he sounds like Patrick Warburton He really sounds like Patrick Warbton And his other voices sound like they're other people, but they're not. sure. All him So he's like making himself sound like Patrick Warburton which is funny Um But he can sound like other people too. and the he is Jeff Hayes, who is the narrator for the audiobook version And the interesting thing is Dinnaman kept the audio rights when he sold the publishing rights He actually kept the ebook rights too when he sold the print publishing rights to Ace So Sound stage Is it Sound stage? I have to double check the name. Yeah. But he got a company that specializes in performance audio books do the audio book and they also do a cast reading sound booth, sound booth Theater They also do a cast reading of it. So if you If you really like the audioobook, but you're like, man, I know he's really good at multiple voices, but what if you actually had multiple voices? You can get that too. Soundbooth. How do you get that? How do you get it? You go to their website find directly from Sound Booth Theater. They give you the first chapter, I think, for free Um, so you can test it Um Listen to episode one, they say of Dungeon Crawler Carl for free. and then you can buy the rest of it from them What are the funniest things about that is when the audioobook first came out, everyone who already knew Soundbu Theater was like, well, you've used Annie Ellicott for Princess Donut, right? You're just not crediting her. And they're like, no, That That's Hayes. That's J Hayes doing impression of Annie Ellicott the for Princess Donut's voice. So when they created the cast read, they got Annie Ellicott. to do Princess dononut So you could do side by side comparisons of that as well , that might trip me up. I get really like really something certain narrators and then I have a hard time. when the voices change But yeah, that's great. Should we hear shouldhould we hear a little sample of this is cinematic. This isn't audio book. This is the cinematic audioook They splattered to the brown Goaning His knife went flying peered over the edge. The the goblin lay on his back. The tractor continued to spin and buck, but it was edging in the opposite direction. The goblin's health was still three quarters full, but he'd had the wind knocked out of him. The goblin started to sit up, Th I threw the pot at him. to my utter astonishment. I clobbered him right in the forehead The Gblin's hands reached to grasp the new wound. I'm gonna skip ahead to see if we hear Jo. I looked down at what I'd done just for impact. The world The door bckked, throwing me forward onto the floor of the guild hall. My ears rang. But the door held. And I didn't seem to be otherwise injured. Donut was in the corner of the room, hoofed out and hissing. What the bloody hell did you do, kid The Gate is capable of holding back a kinetic stack from a star destroyer I think this may be where donut doesn't speak yet. Dang. And that's the end of the sample right there. Uh, that that was u The guide. And that's a different voice than Jeff Hayes. That was Jeff Hayes doing Carl's voice It was a different voice doing the guide's voice. sounded Oh, does that go on you now? Oh, sorry, yeah But there was o Donut talkks, Dutch and crawler Jason Reid says. Boiler. u What was I gonna say? That sounded just like him. They the same They sound like the same person Inredible. So was he imitating that voice actor I don't know Or do they find voices are to imitation? It's like, Oh, I can do that voice Anyway, it's going to be really difficult for me to talk about this without being spoilery because there's so many good things. but I think I can and I will continue to do so Um if you've ever played an MMO or any RPG, frankly you're going to recognize so many things Even if you haven't I think it's a compelling story enough that you're like, okay, I get that this is a video game made real. and someone has been thrown into it and is trying to survive I didn't put too many of the goodood Reads conversations in because I didn't want to get ahead of ourselves too much, but there's some really great conversations about the way that Carl feels and the way he's exploited. and the mechanisms of the game and o, it's just, yeah It's it's it can get pretty dark. Like there's definitely dark elements to the story. Yeah for sure. I think that's one of the fascinating things is how he's able to balance as a person who's played these kinds of games, very real situations, right where you've felt the fear, the heart pounding of like, oh my God, I have to get this goblin and it's only level two. But I'm such a low level, you know, and the feeling later of like, oh, I've leveled up and these things aren't a problem anymore, while also having it hit home that like, yeah, but when you played it, you didn't die Carl could right R. Ver roogue like in that way. yeah Anyway, we'll talk more about this next time. We do have to wrap up the city and the city fininally closing this chapter on having finally read The City in the City by China Mieeville Full spoilers. There wasn't a lot of conversation about this book I feel like the I feel like the running vibe on this book from the listeners was This book has a great concept But Either A, I don't like police procedurals or detective stories, or B It just wasn't done in a way that kept their attention Or like it was a neat idea but could have been better as a shorter book I think first of all, a lot of them are just mad that the Mievil effect is gone because we actually picked China Mievil now You know, it's just sour grabs M Al There is a real effect where People who like something are less likely to talk about it. And I I think we see that a lot when because From where Veronica I sit, it almost feels like you never like a book we pick as a collective Because we more often hear from the people who didn't like things than the people who liked them And so when you say there wasn't much discussion, I sort of interpret that as like, o, so most people liked it. Oh, that's a good good perspective. Yeah. Yeah because because we will always hear from the people who didn't like something and we'll hear from them out of proportion. and this I'm not picking on the people who didn't like it. I'm just saying in general, any book, any topic anywhere, you will more likely hear from people who didn't like something than you will, people who liked it. Now's that's a very hopeful perspective. Thank you Um, I Didn't like it as much as I remembered liking it. That's interesting, dear On that note, Um I I still really like the concept I had completely forgotten, I think, about Rsini so for me, it was A lot of the book was like, oh man, God, if they say crosshatch one more time or if he says, I listened to the audio book so everything was like or se me and And what was the other what were the other names of the places that he lived Why am I forgetting all of the words now? 'causeuse it's been like six months since I read this book Um I likela, Olca B just Blca and and a crosshatch and breach, breach, breach, breach, breach over and over. I was like, a Like these words just like pounding me in the head over and over U So I wonder if that was I don't know I like that. You lik that? I liked that specific thing, the Beijer home. Yeah. I was like, oh, I'm really like soaking in a totally different world I like crime police procedural stuff, so I'm kind of set up you know, to like the premise. so that's not going to bother me I know that we have a post here that we'll read in a second about characters and characters aren't one of my main doorways. So I can understand if they are for you, you might feel different. But yeah, I just was really into the concept. and the concept of seeing and unseeing and how that would work and how that would play out and could it really be done? And what were the weaknesses and how did people drive? and how did people, you know react in, you know, traffic accidents? And he covers all of that. And so I feel it's brilliant because he did never shide away from those things. Um And I understand if you're like, yeah, but what about the plot? What about the characters? There may be other criticisms to be had. I thought the plot was pretty good because I like a crime procedural and it was a good solid crime procedural plot with some twists and unexpected things at the end. But the setting is the world building is amazing it's so interesting because these are twow cities, obviously, that's the whole premise and They are so different, like with their place in the world, like one is working very closely with the U. S and it is kind of modernizing and is a financial powerhouse and And yet, and then there's Beijel, which is like a little more old country, a little more like It's communist. un It'ster It's Eastern Europe Mhm and that was that I thought that was interesting too that like lends a different a different layer onto the whole thing. I wonder if people didn't grow up in the Cold War as much as I did Uh and maybe even you Um if that takes away one thing that you would enjoy about it because to me, I was like, oh yeah, this is East and West Berlin Yeah, you know Yeah Um Yeah. I liked the little ins and outs of like the cultural references to how each city, each nation kind of worked within the world Um, are they countries there's c st This is something I don't. there's city states. okay. So they're they're like, um, Monaco or Lichstein Luxemb. That never even occurred to me Because like they operate like countries in the way that they work with like visas and things like that, but yet they they never talk about like being in a region that is a larger country. Yeah. I think I think there's supposed to be a Lichchtenstein sized got it Yeah, San Marino. U Yeahah, I love the idea that you have to drive through a customs gate from one city to the other That's just a U shaped road Yeah Yeah That is I think I just got and maybe it is because I did read it before. I think I just got a little bit exhausted by the the seeing and the unseeing and the same the sameness of that over and over again, the reference to it over and over again. L the the that that storytelling. device got a little tiresome to me after a while And that's maybe, like I said, an artifact of me having read it already. Yeah, I guess so. It could could not wear as well a second time through. That's quite possible Yeah Like some some of the shock and newness of it kind of wasn't there anymore And then you pick this thread from Ruth who was saying that She found Borlou, you know, our hero, a bit boring. Bou. He said Ruth writes, he doesn't have an interesting backstory or complex interpersonal relationship. It's mentioned that he's seeing two different women, which could be potentially interesting, but then this doesn't actually go anywhere. He doesn't really have any personality traits to speak of. He's just there The other characters are not much better. Corwi is just a cyipher and while Dot is a bit livelier, they don't really get much development or chance to do anything interesting. I found the most compelling character, especially near the end was Bodden, who actually gets some development and a nice moment with Boru, but even he gets very little paid timeun. And there's more from Ruth about this. but But basically, for me, character is a much more important doorway than plotter setting in this book was lacking in that department is what she finishes with Yeah, I actually really liked Cori and I would have liked to have seen more of her, but I thought she was good a good counterpoint to Borlou in the beginning of the story and she kind of comes in clutch at the end, you know Um But yeah, she could have been a little more fleshed out, but I think that's okay Okay How does this compare to character development in something like Sherlock Holmes I think that's a fair Harrison M because this is that kind of story There's a mystery and Borou is our Sher loock But we don'tlock character, but he' he's the investigator. But the differences with Sherlock and Watson is that you have History You you have you've had that character development throughout all of their stories. So there's less that you need to But not the first time you're wr you get that. Theoretically, you could have many Boru mysteries Maybe just Sherlocks is better written. Well, that's what I'm trying to get. That's what I'm trying to understand whether that's the case or not, right? Is is is it It's kind of unfair to to literally hold up any other detective to Sherlock Holes. I don't know Chinna Mville is considered to be, you know, a genius. great writer. Award winning and all of that. So I think specifically, detective to detective. that's a tough comparison to make. Yeah, writer to writer, Conan Doyle to Mivill, obviously Sherlock Holes a very different kind of dive than Borling. But you know,el Perot would be another one. Agatha Christie is another one you could compare this to Fr that perspective, from the character development perspective. The reason I ask that is I feel like Mievil knew he was writing a crime novel for his mother and so didn't spend the time to develop the characters because you don't do that in a crime procedural You focus on the crime and you focus on the work. That's a police was that in the book briefing The part about him writing it for his mother was the rest of it was not So no, it's not because you didn't read the book for reading this I didn't know the part about the mother. Yeah. I think I did it last on the last episode. whichich I think you were on. I was pretty sure I was on. Yeah. But anyway, that doesn't matter. Like he was defeinitely writing a crime novel because that's what his mother liked. So I think he was following the forms there. And then to me, it's like, okay, so If he's following the forms, let's compare it to other crime novels, other great crime novels and say like how does his character development stack up next to those? But you're right, it's kind of hard when you have like a hundred herercle Pes novels to get to know him. He becomes a much deeper character over time. It's really difficult to try to remember like what did I feel the first time I ever read Sherlock Holmes Yeah. h kind of horny It wasn't a question, but thank. Oh,, I'm sorry. sorry. What? What What? It's that mine palace Sexy, sexy mind palace Well, there's the title of the episode. in my palace But anyway, I I I guess what I wouldd say to Ruth is like you're not wrong. And if you're Dorway's character, then yeah, this is probably not the strongest story for you So was Borlou boring? Is he a boring guy? I don't think he's boring I think he's pretty typical for an investigator character And I found him quite interesting as far as that goes. There are much more boring investigator characters in these mystery stories John Nevitt said, sexy, sexy cheese castle Sexy, sexy cheese castle I liked Dot. I thought Dot was going to turn on him. I have forgotten what where Dot's allegiances lied Yeah in between the book my readings. And so I was always like expecting Dot to like You know, to turn him incroom in the end. Yeah undermine him. So I was pleased to see that he did not Um, But yeah, I think the most interesting part of the book for me was the finale with Boden And straddling that line between the two being unknowable, being unseeable and untouchable by living in that space of sharing the mannerisms and the clothing and being So so in between as to be undetectable for for either city. Yeah. That was cool Yeah, it was cool the way they handled breach because that felt like an almost impossible task to explain. And I think other writers would have just avoided it I think that Uh, guessed breach probably people who breached and sometimes turned them into breach people. I was like, that seems to be the only way that breach could persist I can't imagine they'd have a little bit like baby breaches. Yeah. so and they basically says that at one point. He wass like, you don't see any children here, right Yeah, so so I kind of guessed that was coming, but I wasn't disappointed that that's where it. ended up That's another point that I think brings up or someone at least later in the in the thread brings up is Isn't it strange how Borlu just kind of goes against everything he really stood for and ends up working for Bach in the end K kind of doesn't have a choice He does Yeah. K kind of doesn't have a choice, but he kind of seems into it too. Like it didn't seem like a it I feel like This is a subtle thing because there are a lot of subtle things here. and I know sometimes If we have a book that has subtled point some people won't like the book because they don't want to work that hard to try to pay attention to them and I totally get that. But one of the subtle things they do is show that Borlu is not happy with seeing an unseen that he resists it. He does it because he knows he has to because it's the norm because he'll be punished if he doesn't. But you can tell he doesn't like it. So when it comes to Bach, that could explain why he gets so giddy, like this frees him from that He gets to he gets to behind the scenes. Yeah, he can just exist in a different way than he's accustomed to. Yeah Well, thank you, everyone for submitting your thoughts and ideas. Do you have any final thoughts on the city and the city? No, I thought it was really good. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Dungeon Crawler, Carl different b. It's a very different book and it's a book where I am finding any excuse to listen to the audio book that I can. City in the city wasn't quite like that, but it was definitely one where I looked forward to like, ooh, I get to hang out with Borlu now. so I enjoyed it quite a bit. I am also making a lot of time for cararl and donuts. so I'm excited to prettytty much downloaded the for the first time in a long time I'm like, yeah I'm going through the whole series. There are books where I'm like, yeah, I'd like to keep going, but I don't know if I have time. This one I'm like, no, I gotta find out. I gota keep Yeah, this is like, this feels the way I felt about the Babaverse And murderbot in some ways too. Yeah. But definitely murderbot is right in there. like anytime there's a murderbot, I'm on it I. Give me that me eating cheese curds and reading Murderbot. Yep Aiden scars got Is no