Leadership Transition and Future of Apple

Good evening nerds And welcome to San Jose's elegant California Theater Where Daring Fireball is pleased to present another edition of the talk show Live. Now Please silence your devices Then get loud for your host, John Gruber. Hello. I am John Gruber. Welcome to the talkalh live from WWDC twenty twenty six. Thank you for coming Thank you everybody watching either live in Sandwich Vision with the Theater app or U Watching on YouTube, later, whatever, but mostly to the people who are here Thank you As usual, this show would not happen without the sponsors who help helped literally make this happen financially. I have three of them to thank and I thank them all. They are all awesome. First, I want to thank Details Pro Details Pro is a design tool for real Swift UI mockups. 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You don't have to drop your existing calendar app. You don't have to drop the reminders app. integrates with the system like a great modern IOS Apple platform app. It is really, really great. Where do you go to find out more? go to finalist. works slash talk show And by going to finalist. work slash talk showow You can try it for free. Of course, everybody can try it for free, but with that webpage You get six months free on the house just for being a listener of the show or attendee of the show Um There is a lot to talk about as ever at WWDC I guess there is suuddenly starting last year, a bit more drama over who is actually going to be Be here with me Uh ad Well Not surprising to me, it is not anybody who works regularly in Cupertino, again And I thought last year was really a good show to talk about the fact that there's nobody from Apple here doing this and talking about the state of Apple in general So I thought let's just roll it back. Ladies and gentlemen, introduce welcome to the stage. Joanna Stern and Nili Patel Well Mind this side over here again? Yeah, let's see you. Same seats,sign seating. Asign seating. It's nice to know we didn't completely blow it last year. Yes U I couldn't hear. Was there like a boo? like go low, like, o ember re announced or not? No, I don't think so. Were people surprised or were people not surprised It' ringing. We couldn't hear it behind the stage. U A bigig year for Joanna. I might as well before I forget at the end of the show, Joanna is doing new things at New things Thene thingsings. com at the newew Things d. com But still here, still covering Apple. What did you think of the keynote in general board But claim to realize that boredom goodood thing That's my short reaction. was Sure. That was good. It was very suspenseful. U Do you I to do my whole riff about how Apple Sherlocks chat you with not yet I You know so I live blog the keyne I have for years and years and years. And my experience of this is like a fuue state. And I have to go back to my hotel room hours and hours later and actually rewatch it and know it happens so I think everybody's caught this online and I didn't see it until way later actual video production shhaky cams, blown highlights, weird audio all over the place. I saw speculation that they had ADR the keynote So they hadd like go into a room and like match their lips moving to get the audio right afterwards, which would be incredible. If you can leak to me, whever that actually happened, that'd be great U And then that matched the vibe on the ground where they were just desperate to show you Siri working. Like you would turn a corner and someone would like leap out of a bush and like, wouldould you like a demo U And there was just that element to all of it, which I thought was very unique for Apple in the model I think I think To things where I felt underwhelmed, but again in a way that was maybe something I hadn't felt from an Apple keynote in maybe ten years where it was solely so focused on the products, there's been years they started doing the produced videos during COVID. Okay. So six, seven years where It felt like they wanted to do live demos on stage and bring it back to being live And that's why I think we kind of like we were feeling like this shaky, but they had they didn't completely go away from Craig jumping out of a plane, but it was someplace in the middle Right? Like there was there was the Weird Volkswag, the nineteen seventies flashback thing. whichich was like the funniest part of the keynote Right versus in the last past few years, there's been so these all these g memes of Craig doing crazy transitions and you know, running down stairs and jumping out planes. That was co like what we have to announce for you is liid glass. Right. Right. And so they were like Special effects will cover up the substance. Here I think they They just paired it way down because they wanted all of the attention on the substance. Was that last year with the airplane and Phil Schiller piloting? and I don't have time for this stuff Yeah, that was last year. Yeah. whichich But then was there was like, o there's like the basketball there's all these fun mees that we remember and I think you come out of that and be like, wow, that was a very entertaining, very high energy keynote videoide ad, whatever we call these now infomercial. Yes, Apple Infomercial. you you're you're again, like the fugue state is very normal. I think We're in it, we're trying to write, we're trying to figure out everything. But you're really clouded by the production value and all of this. Again, like maybe it's that I wasn't bored but it just comparatively to past years, I felt reallyally taken down. Yeah. described it as humble Yeah And it's an unusual adjective in recent years to apply to Apple. Yeah. Mbe. Yeah. But it was very humble I think I was talking to Adam Lisigor, you know, he agreed and he's got the pro commercial makers eye that Yeah, it was just low fi. you know, and it was more clearly Not like it looked bad, but more like, yeah, that looks like it was shot with iPhones. Whereas some of the ones since they've started shooting these things on ihes, you' like, I can't believe they shot that on Yeah, they didn't add any lenses to the iPhone this year. Right. And and it was It just it felt like it wanted to be live. There were a few moments where I was like Why didn't we just do this live? Google IO is live. We have seen this return going back to live. I just watch I wonder if there's this internal debate at Apple about do we go back to live, what we've seen so much success from the infomercials? And I just wonder Again, this is like my fan fiction Inside of Apple's boardrooms, they're fighting about how to do these keynotes again. Get outt of here, Tim. You're done We're going back to li.. And In terms of how humble it was, I believe every single scene in the whole thing was inside Apple Park. Y Yeah And so Even as simple as the fact that the code nameame for MacOS twenty seven is Golden Gate. they didn't even go to San Francisco right up the road to shoot at Golden Gate Right? L as opposed to all of the various exotic places they've shot keynote scenes in over the years. They just shot the whole thing Walking around and it was They couldn't even rent the bart this year That was last year, right? But that's not a complaint. I'mlike you, I think So at first, I think everybody in the press walking out of after was like, whoa, that and it was short. Right? It was like they went from like an hour and forty five minutes, hour and forty five minutes, hour and fifty minutes for the last couple to It was like seventy six minutes or something. It was like an hour and fifteen. and that's counting a three minute music video gag at the end It was like, whoa, that was fast. And they started early. Yeah. Yeah, they even started it early But I think it was appropriate for the place they're at and what they had to announce. It fit. like I don't it's not a complaint. I think it was like, hey, this was tight. and humble and This year's announcements are very practical and kind of humble, right I mean, the first thing they announced, the literal first feature that they announced was an opacity slider for liquid glass, right? And it was like, John Gruber, are you You're happy now Not until then, the next thing they announced was They tightened up the corner radius That's right. On the windows. And they were like, and they're all the same. whether your app's been updated or not. It's like there's only one corner radius for Windows. And it got applause just like you did here. And it's like, yes, the WWDC audience is still the WWDC audience. Corner radiuses for Windows on the Mac got applause Yeah And I think you're Humble iss right. And I think just regaining trust.. I think this was their moment to say we're going to focus on these things billion plus users use that we want to make better. also very much talk to the core audience that is what this conference is for So like Like you're saying, the sliders, but then also everything from the performance improvements, that apps are going to perform better. I think it's no I mean, certainly On purpose that the first things they were talking about was better app performance, better app launching And that I Again, maybe boring, but also just really important for the company at this moment. It also very much struck me that All the bad guys are gone Like just straightforwardly like, Allan die, we will stomp on your grave And then, you know, all the serious stuff like John Gernandrea is gone. Yeah. And Mike Rockwell later on was on stage live in front of journalists and creators in front of system diagrams of a new theory being like, I fixed it. Here's how it works. And so and then I don't know if it's on a keynote literally a feature by feature the like. And here's a new product marketing manager You know, and they're like, you can now search and mail What about photos? And they were like talk to another person., you can search photos too. And I think that The amount of just new blood that they were trying to show us, that they had gotten rid of the people who had made the mistakes and all these new people were going to build new features It was just a theme. G up. So I've written a bit about Allan Dy But it comes back to the humility, right? Like onene of the things that irritated me last year and I wrote about it, and I compared and contrasted Alan Dye's recorded introduction of liquid glass. And I think rather than showing the video, I mean, hey, I don't really do video, but transcript of what he says It's like such high fallutin What the hell does that even mean talk, you know, about like being true to the materials I't And then go back to transcript of Steve Jobs introducing the Aqua user interface, which was like, whoa, look at that. holy crap. That's what I'm going to be using. And it's like, I don't know, you know, And then listening and transcribing Steve's words And it was stuff like, yeah, we wanted the buttons so cool you could lick them. You know, like that's the language he use. Yeah And Steve Jobs talking about things like key window in terms of like, oh, that's the window that has input focus. And look at the difference and talking about it and you could tell that Steve Jobs really cared about those aspects of user interface design. Oh, if you've got four windows visible on screen, it should be really obvious which one has input focus and using the lingo like He window And then somebody who used to work at Apple and doesn't anymore, which is why they were able to chat with me was like, yeah, when I used to meet with Alan Dye's team I never used words like that because when I did, it was like I could see their eyes rolling back in their head. like, oh, you're gonna nerd cus with the nerd talkalk lingo like key window. The Aleni experience was very much like if you do a Johnny Ivan impression without a British accent It's just like less convincing Like that accent conquered the world. You know what I mean? Like you could just get away with anything like Ooundies, L like the materials are true themselves and like I don't Right I leave you less. Yeah. You know, like He good. But so go back to yesterday's keynote, and how did they introduce these changes? They're like, hey, we heard your feedback. Some people like more transparency, some people like less. Here's a slider You know less more. Yeah. You know. We heard you guys the corner radiuses. That was a kind of they could have done like whose idea was that? They could have made a joke But they just said, hey, we unified, we have a standard corner radius. and it's the tighter one, not the dumb baby. I would have taken it. It would have been better if all windows had a big dumb baby corner radius, but this was actually the best case scenario Yeah you know actually they made another joke during this briefing I had with journalists at the end, it was live And I don't know, you guys thought about it. The first thing that struck me was They were all kind of nervous because they're so out of practice rightight A bunch ofpple executives are going to sit on a stage and they're going to talk about their products live and take questions in a fairly conrained way, they're certain going to do it And it's like, they just haven't done this in a long time And as you all know, Apple exeutives are very practice, they very smooth. And it was still like, oh, they're a a little shaky. Also, Tim Cook was right in the front like just staring at Craig being like, don't blow it. And so like that must be top But at the very beginning of this, they got a question on agents. and Craig was like, oh so y'all watch Google IO. And it was just funny. and it was like Apples in the world, right? They're not in this hermetically staled bubble. They're aware of the competition partner, they have to cop to it. and it was just more grounded in that very specific way The other thing too, we talked about the fact that the overall keynote was very short compared to previous one. It's hard to imagine them ever having a WWDC keynote that would be less time Bye pausing for effect because that included a lot of really long pauses for the demos. right? Yeah Be as you said, Joanna, they shot them As though they were on tape, but they were like live to tape. And there was no doubt when you were watch you were just like, okay, that's a long pause because that is the real time deemo which was Absolutely a reaction to what happened to two years ago and they wanted none of that and even as knew I was say It is not a joke how many times I said, We want you to go download the software. We want you to go try it. Yeah. We want you to know that what what we showed was real, and now we want you to experience it Not what happened two years ago. Were you at the tech talkk at noon that Neil I was talking about live. I was sitting next to him. Because they did live demos there too. Yeah. Mike Rockwell did, I think Sebastian Marno Mis It wasn't it Sebastian I tried to auto complete it and it said Seastian Mataskal and And I was that wasn't it. But Rockwell did live demos Yeah, And you could see they were nervous. Yeah. Even though you knew that this was a pretty canned live demo and that they knew what they were going to ask. they knew what was it wasn't like we were like, Hey, can you do this thing from the audience? that they weren't taking requests from us in the audience. but they They seemed nervous. mean in the same way that almost There's the meme of the guy who did the u Coconut cookies demo In the have you guys seen the meme of the I guess going around as a dad. That's kind of out of touch. I don't remember the Apple executive during the ketoe And it was such a long pause that there's now this meme kind of going around about what he could have been searching for And I think just Even in that moment that guy seemed nervous. L there's this weird silence. It's weird to sit with the silence of Siri. Yeah. I do I sat with it almost all day. I was with S all day. I do think that the nature of a staged keynote meaning literally with an audience on stage and you do a demo is F more forgiving to a demo that takes time because of a processing step. whether it's AI or go back in time to like, o, it's you know, here's somebody from Adobe and they're showing off a new version of Photoshop And it's going to take a couple seconds to render the image liive With an audience and you have to wait because it's going to be technically impressive or understandably It adds drama But in the context of a filmed keynote where they tighten everything and it's like, you cut, you cut, you don't have to wait for anybody to come out on stage. They say, hey U And here to tell you more is Joanna. and it just cuts to Joanna and she's already there When you introduce a laggy demo, it stands out And maybe that's also why they shot that in this way Yeah going back to our origin like there wasn't these crazy transitions Maybe that's also why they shot it that way. Yeah. I think so you know, just somebody got paid so much money to structure this and think about the creative around this. So much money Yeah, it's like it's like they went indie, right or like Apple the This is all the rage, but yeah, I don't have that production budget still. Yeah.. What was it I think it was last year or maybe the year they blurred together, but the time that Fank. Federgi to himself, but then he did like what's that that called when you jump down the stairs? Stunt double, Yeah. Yeah. its You know Just none of that. It's just here, here you are and it's like shhaky cam and it's all real and it's in real time. And I think it worked, right? I think it added credibility. It's like, this is the seri you're going to expect to get Um Before I move on though, the other thing, I thought it was weird that they open the keynote and they're like, instead of doing a section on the Mac and then a section on a phone and then a section on iPad. And it has been weird over the last few years because they've kind of gotten all the features in step and they're going to come out for all of these platforms. And so they take like a third of the features call them Mac features, a third they call them iPhone, a third they call them iPad. but they're all like for all platforms. And it's like just And this time they were just like, here's the features It's for all of them. And it was fifteen minutes and that was it And then Well, I don't know if you have more to say about that, But then they spent almost as long. They spent like twelve, thirteen minutes. they spent like fifteen minutes on all the features for all the platforms and then speent almost as long just talking about parental So I wrote this in my newsletter this morning. I'm genuinely not sure if they needed to fill the time I was like, did they need to fill this amount of time? And they were like This is it. This is our year for parental controls. We haven't talked about it in ten years. It's going smack in the middle of the keynote. So either one, did that happen? two, they have a big hurdle up against that, they've got to convince parents, they've got to convince regulators about the safety of the platform. and it's a great marketing utility to say, hey, we're better than Android on this Or, you know, lastly, are this features just really great and they're really proud of it and they wanted to talk about it Are they really great, Chrina Well, look, I have a lot of feelings on parental controls. I think that I think it's a combination of all three of those things, by the way I think that the They needed to reintroduce the fact that they have a lot of these features. And so things that might have been presented as new are absolutely not new. I use a lot of those features with my kids all the time Some things were new like the ability to block certain websites The new assistant that onboards you, that seems like a pretty new thing. I haven't gotten to use it yet, but theyve talked about it And the big thing that's new, which they didn't talk about during the keynote, but I confirmed with Apple after is that they've fixed the underlying architecture of how this was working, how screen time and parental controls are working. And so if you're a parent out there and you know Thatve used you've used this to, let's say, limit the screen time app on my son's Roblox, for instance, right?ve said Only forty five minutes Yet it still runs for two hours They just were broken. Right. Right? The sinking has been broken. The tools have just like my son will request and ad, I'm like, I haven't gotten that request. I'm sorry. Right? Things like this have just been broken. And so Apple says that they have now revamped this. The underlying architecture should just work And that's not something they talk about on stage, but that is huge. that is huge for parents. That the existing features work now after five years. Yes And So I have a I much more cynical view this is maybe unsurprising What a shock. What was it? like ten years ago, they shut down all the Pintal control apps that were based on MDMs. Yeah. Rember? And there was a big argument about this. they were like, this is a security feature. A or security risk. Apple simply has not experienced competition for printal controls They're like, we shut down all the MDM based solutions. By the way, totally fine for your employer to install MDM based shit all over your life. But if parents want to do with their kids, we have to absolutely not, right? So that never made any sense, but they shut down thirird party pntal control system is that we're going to roll it into the operating system. and then no one is going to switch to Android. because of scre teack simply not happen So they're been in a vacuum of competition in that time Every parent in the world is like, this sucks And because there's nowhere to go, they've gone to their governments And so now Texas has age verification. We just saw the big lawsuits against the social media companies about how little regard they have for their users and children. There is a wave of regulation in this country and in countries around the world at the state level that Apple is furious about. and it's all going to end with them having to do age verification at the operating system level It's not the right answer, but it's also not the wrong answer Right? The wrong answer is every single app asks for your driver's license Maybe you don't want that to happen at all. I think there's a lot of like F Amendment concerns or just concerns But they're going to drive headfirst into we are so reticent to that there be competition in this market that we have to do it. And so now we're announcing a bunch of old features that work now in an effort to get on daytime televisions. so parents are like, Apple fixed it to stave off regulators around the world. And I do not think it's going to work. I don't think that class of people, the people protesting outside of Apple Park yesterday are going to be fooled by a reintroduction of screen time controls with new defaults set by the American Academy of Pediatrics And I asked Apple about this and they're like, but we think the features are great. And it's like So hamer's coming like one way or another. And I also think the argument totally agree with all of this is now we have actually give parents working controls. and so now the onus is on the parents, right? Because the parents could previously say and these all groups could say, these tools don't work. right? We've been trying.'ve beening These tools don't work, thingsings get through the cracks can't do it is why should we as parents be IT managers? They're like, actually, no, we've made it way easier and now it all works One thing I love about having you two, I just had this moment here where I'm imagining instead it's Craig and Jobs. And there would be no agreement on stage that the parental controls features just didn't work for years. Like this would be a fight I I just have not worked for years. I know I've heard this over and over again. and I'm a little older. My son just graduated college, so I'm past the yes He'll enjoy that if he actually is honest about watching the show. Cratul' going to be like Dad, can you please improve my purchase of Roblx? Right I have not been approving his purchases or his screen timee for a long time And really when he was more of that age, that stuff wasn't even there. It was really was and again I don't want to run past the whole without mentioning it that, hey, parents should just know what their kids are doing on devices, right? Like L the idea that either laws or Operating system features are going to absolve parents of knowing what their kids are doing on their devices is ridiculous. but also People are lazy and they want to believe that those things are possible. And so it's a real deal. But I think what you're saying, Neili is in some ways, maybe Apple brought this on themselves by letting the built in features A not work in B be confusing. They were not very well designed. And I think that's sort of the story from yesterday is, A, fundamentally, the stuff that we said would work. like if you say your kid can have forty five minutes of Roblox time on a school night, that's what they get. And then a dialogue comes up at forty five minutes and one second and says, that's it, your time is up And they don't two hours later, they're not still playing. But be that They introduced it like these are new features, but really it's like, oh, this is a design that adds clarity and understanding to the features such that you as a parent will be able to look at and say, o, I understand how to do this. I could say This is what they can do on weekdays. This is that they can watch a three hour movie on Saturdays and Sundays. I understand it And that is Writ large, that's the story of Apple in software period for everything. Apple at their best makes design software that helps people understand how to use the software. Yeah. I mean, the big announcement here is they introduce defaults Right Right. we all know defaults are extraordinarily powerful.. And Apple simply did not have a point of view in the previous question. Right. What are the limits for your kids? Apple was like, you figured out Now they've punted that, right? They've punted that to the American Academ of Pedatrics and big slide of expert organizations they've consulted with and they' reallyally relying on that expertise And all of that is the foundation for when you open this, and you tell me how old your kids are We are going to set some defaults for you. And that will be I think tremendously useful apparent if the features actually work But I really do not think it's going to stave off Mountain. growing tidal wave of concern from regulators around the world.. There's also Just a sort of like essential paradox of this all which is the problem is the social media apps And these controls cannot reach into Instagram and say this post is actually not appropriate for you There needs to be some coordination between all of these different apps the operating system and that simply does not exist And I suspect it won't exist until someone passes a law It's just going to keep building And I think that's the frustration that you hear for parents or feel as parents is why are we as IT managers? We've got to manage all these different apps, you've got to manage the operating system I think this is The effort is to make this better at the operating system level, but it does not get around all of these other things that all the other apps have to do. And make work. Screen time is whatever the health and mental and upbringing well being aspects of it, it is not as bad as smoking cigarettes to compare it to a previouser in like the early nineties. They're ruled, you know? Yeah. But the perspective on cigarettes was sort of like back in the day, it was more like, well, how young should a kid be before they start to smoke? You know fromrom the tobacco industes Fom the tobacco industrys perspective, Like, no, we're not going after grade school kids. Seriously, we're really not. We're going after like middle school kids You know. You're thirteen, you got a job and you got a p. Yeah We're not animals. You know what I mean? Third graders should not be smoking. You know, we agree with that. But there is a you don't have to be a cynic to think Hey, maybe isn't the company to be saying how much screen time and device time your kids should have Right? L because they sell the devices, right? And in particular with like, hey, how much what should be the deal with kids in school with their phones? I think the answer is Pones should go in those lockbxes and your kids shouldn't have phones in school And I would have really been impressed if Apple had said, this is our recommendation. And they probably I'm sure they could get the pediatric association to say, and there's proof that school districts that are implementing policies like that are like, yeah, the kids' behavior is better, their attention' better. The kids actually enjoy it Once it's instituted, they may object when they say that's the new rule It would be something if Apple said that, you know? L the best policy would be for kids not to use their phones when they're in school. Well, they got to sell IiPads This's like very challenging For macc Nos. Yeah Yeah, use your school, you know. And again, it falls into the old apple line of just buy more devices right? Have the kids put their phones in the locker and have the school buy a bunch of iPads to give them that just have the school software on. Yeah, right That's what Joss would tell you on stage. Yeah. That's what. He definitely Right. Right. We're not bringing those things together. We want them to buy all separate devices. These are all the best ofices He never misses an opportunity to tell you a b another I remembered and I just have to mention this. is but it's the way that things change over time. and I've been doing this long enough where now it feels like, man, that is a long time ag becausecause what you're saying, both of you, it is incredibly relevant outside the nerd culture. It is a real Uh conventional news culture issue. real laws Texas has a you know, it's not hypothetical. It's passed. O countries around the world. It's shipping. Age verification in IOS in Texas is shipping today. And and it's complicated. Apple has a thing on the deeveloper news site about how to, you know, make sure your Apper game complies with the law and I read it and I'm like I'm glad I don't have an app anymore because I don't understand what I would need to do. But to go back far enough, when Apple first added features called parental controls, it was in the classic MacOS. And it was things like hey, you can't just throw folders in the trash and emptied the trash. And you can't do things like this And then I met somebody who was an engineer at Apple and that those features, they called them parental controls, but they were written by middle aged engineers at Apple. for their parents Yeah So they were parentall. And that's why they called I sered a God. That is why the feature was called parental controls. It was like an in joke at Apple. That's amazing. Right. that they would like go back home for Thanksgiving and their parents would be like, Hey, I don't know what happened, but the web, the internet is gone And they'd be like, you mean the internet Internet explorer. And they'd be like Yeah, the internet, it's gone. And they'd look and it's like in the trash. And they'd be like, Oh, thank God, they don't know how to empty the trash. And they'd drag it out and it's like, Oh, you brought the internet back. I actually need a version of this right now in the US. Yeah. For my parents But it's really what the features were originally. And if you think about it, it's like, yes, yes, there were the jokes with the Oscar, the Grouch extension, if you go back far enough, where the kids wanted to make Oscars sing. so they were throwing files in the trash and emptying the trash. But for the most part, kids understand how computers work much better than older people. So were they didn't really need those protections for the parents, but now it really is Parents with young children. The problem is that the kids understand how Yes computers work a little bit better and they can get around the controls. in so many ways that they could get around that with controls. My daughter is eight and'm you're never getting a phone Right My son is eleven months old and I'm like, maybe they won't exist by the time this comes around, like who knows? But you know, the families in my area have like the The pact. It's like, if anyone wants to break, just call me right away And we will not give our kids these phones until like the last minute. I don't know how we're all smmart glasses.' Yeah, they're all gonna get metaglasses. They're all gettingagreitiously. I'm not getting my daughter a phone just metaglasses. From Alan Dy You will hate this interface so much U Next card I have here, we talked about a little the tech talk that they had post keynote I'll just reiterate, I just think that was good for Apple too. I think the keynote was good for Apple. I think actually being on stage in front of people in the press was good I think they could have made it a little longer. I mean it was like it was scheduled for an hour and at like forty five minutes, Craig was like, my iPad saying time's up. And I was like, I thought we had fifteen more minutes. We just got started. They did like forty minutes of prepared stuff, which was good. It was good and nerdy and detailed and like, oh, I could see why this wasn't in the keynote And it's good to inform the press about how this stuff works, how the architecture works And then they're like, now it's time for questions and they did that for five minutes. Yeah,. It would have been better. But they getting their feet? they they're brand new for them They haven't done it in a long time, we' gott to ski down the bunny hill first. Next to, they might be live questions. We'll see how it goes Yeah, I would like to see more of that. That would be very good Or they, you know, they could do things like come on shows. This would be a great place to do a Tch talkk I know. it would. I mean if you're to let them have a board, right? you could present you would be allowed with that. They're going put up the Siri A architecture slide. It' this. Exactly.. I thought the entire reason they did that. was I don't think I saw the photos in Tkok. They show the architecture they very specifically comparered and contrast This sort of standard chat bot architecture where you've got an app on the phone and it goes to cloud and those models. And then they're like, And that's pretty much how Gemini works. And then they're like, hereere's our architecture And Craig very directly was like, as you can see, we're using nothing of Googless Like nothing at all. We're using zero of the approach that Google's using They've helped us refine our models. W it? Is it just a very you have to unpack that. likeike I'm not one hundred percent sure what that means because Apple didn't have good models to begin with. So did they distill the Gemini models to make their models better? Are they using a variant on Gemini that they've trained? They certainly haven't trained new models or there a reason they're paying Goog all money U But they were just very clear architecture of Apple Intelligence, even though it runs on NVidia hardware in Google Cloud, is their own. It has nothing to do with Gemini in the way that people I think assumed that's some new Gemini And to me, that was the entire purpose of that conversation. Yeah, I think so too. And I think For all of our complaints about Apple and product naming over the years, it's like time for Apple to get their fair short end of the stick with the fact that Google calls everything related to AI Gemini Right? The models are Gemini, The assistant app is Gemini. You go into Google Docs and the new buttons they're adding everywhere, Gemini, Gemini, Gemini, everything is Gemini And what Federici did on that slide is, well, we don't use that, take it off. you don't use that, take it off. And it goes all the way back to the original, just the models, not even the assistant But Google does call those models Gemini. And they're like, so we have to call them Gemini too But then you just say that word once and we did this in partnership with Google And all people hear is, oh, when I talk to Siri, that now it's in Google Gemina And it's not. Yes. this is clearly a distancing process. R Yeah, I agree. And it was actually the message throughout a lot of the briefings as well and how to phrase it so it's very clear. This is Apple partnering with Google or GeminA, not powered by And I think, you know, again, to their credit, I think it was a very good session. I think it was I think it was needed. I think it was good that it was live And it treated us who were there in the audience as Technically proficient smart journalists who could under if we could learn what they're trying to explain to us and it was not like baby explanation of it And it's like then it's up to us to explain to our, you know, put it in our words and explain it to our audiences. But there was a respect to the audience for, hey, we think you can understand that this is complicated. And I definitely think it goes back to two years ago with the original Apple intntelligence he know that It was all I could kind of follow it and then you could kind of pick it apart afterwards. but coming out of the keynote All of the press was Apple intelligence equals chat GPT And which wasn't true because It wouldn't be the wouldn't have been the two years that they had if it was But it was like and they were blown away by that. They were like, I remember late in the day on keynote day, they were like, why is everybody, you know confused about this? And it's like because your keynote was a little confusing around this. Yeah. 'a you announced that you were partnering with openen eye to put ChD in Syria in some very confusing way. And they didn't do the technical Just a diagram of what the architecture looks like. Right. And it's like Apple used to love making diagrams of how, whether it's like a Cloud based architecture or just a system architecture, you know? sometometimes they do it. they've done it with like M series chips and explaining the unified But they should do more of that. They're very good at explaining technical things. Yeah. they got very much into the everything we make is magic Yes. you know, it's like, well, it's computers. A lot of people at WWC really understand how computers work. you can just tell them I am Like here's this is very nerdy. It's what waside. I think it's fascinating that they're not using Google's TPUs. Yeah, right? Like we just all came from Google IO a few weeks ago, Google made a huge deal about their TP's icient it can bring down theost cur Apple and NvidDia. I think it's fair to characterize that relationship as open hostility for over a decade moreese companies do not like each other and it's because some power books one time overheated and they couldn't decide This is true and they couldn't decide who should pay for it. And they're like, well, I guess I'll never talk again. And then Jensen Wang's like, I'm a trillionaire. And Apple's like, well I guess we got to talk to that guy I'm But they, you know, they have a big partnership with Google and they I think they picked the architecture that they think is better And that's not. You know, to the extent that Google uses a videoia shouldort they have Google Cloud Google's all of Gemini is about TPU's, That is the message that Google wants to tell you about Gemini. R. And Apple is like, we actually made a different decision And it's a decision you would not expect them to make given all that history. You know, you can say a whole bunch of stuff about CapEx, Apples, I and Vveicles, all this stuff, but even that was just It was an indication of independence from Google's decisions. Yeah, the basic understanding is I get it and we'll skip ahead here. We'll save Siri, but to talk about because there is there is a very big difference between Apple intntelligence, the new Dated twenty seven OS edition of Apple Intelligence and Siri, which is sort of built on top of Apple intntelligence. but Yeah. The TkTok covered both. and it was good that they had different people, right? Rockwell is Siri uh Aar, I forget his last name, but he's the new Apple intntelligent and he's there you know, there's together, But seriously, what is the difference between Siri and Apple intntelligence? Do they know I think they do now. And I do know. Yeah, I think I do. Okay, tell us Everyone let's go around. What is the difference? One by one. Someone tell me the difference between Apple intntelligence and Ser. You you' know there's a spotlet in the wrapp. Everyone will go around and tell us the difference. I think Apple intntelligence is the underlying models and APIs. You know developers don't write Third party developers don't write Siri features. You can write features like the app intents that integrate with Siri commands, but you're not writing Siri. You're using Apple intntelligence to to do your things. It's sort of maybe Sort of like the difference between web kit and saafari whereere developers can integrate Webkit into their apps to do rendering and it's like, oh, I could make this view a webview and render it in Webkit Um, But that doesn't mean you're writing features for saafari. Right? Safari is sort of and then Safari doesn't exist without Webkit, but that's what Siri is. Siri is the thing that users see So for the most telling I mean, maybe this is a marketing thing, but they've been out there telling people about getting Apple intntelligence. These phones support Apple intntelligence. Right. But then now you've got Apple intntelligence in Siri and some features fall under Apple intntelligence, like image playground and writing tools. right But then you've got Siri, which falls up like visual intelligence falls under that And pretty much every other thing they did falls under Siri it does the lines blur, I guess. I mean, Don't look at me. I didn't I didn't This is where we could use Jaws. Yeah, exactly. But does he even understand the difference between Apple intntelligence and SI? I guess that's not the difference is just What it's like confusing nomenclature about which is what? Yeah I think Siri And I think the fact that they've made Siri an app now helps clarify that, right? And because it's like you can go to the app and what's in there is Siri Including even with the camera feature I was about to saying in the camera feature, it is getting a little bit clearer because you go there and you see Siri and you have a bunch of options for Siri Well, all right, I willll go back and we will talk about Ciri first. I was really hoping you would do that because I'm gonna to run out of steam here at like three hours. So it's one of the neatest little changes. and to me, it's like that it's clear that they rushed, you know, I think in hindsight, it's pretty obvious that they Rushed the announcements two years ago. but Um The way it has worked or anybody who doesn't have the beta of IOS twenty seven on their phone, if you long press on the camera control button, you get visual intelligence. And it's a totally different experience called visual intelligence. and it's like you can say Where do I get a red blouse like this? pointinted at Joanna Hh You know, I don't have to point a camera at Nei. What color is Neili wearing today? Black.'s like I didn't turn my phone Apple intntelligence didn't even find it. But visual intelligence was like its own thing. and the only way you get it was side holding the button. And what they've done with IOS twenty seven is if you just click the button, you get the camera app in a regular take a phhoto mode And if you long press it, it opens the camera app and a little mode video Photo, there's a new Siri mode, and that just is selected by default And it's the camera button. And then if you're like accidentally press the button too long because you wanted to launch the camera, I mean, this happens to me a lot is you just want to launch the camera and you're like, oh, now I've got a dedicated camera button on my phone, but you hold it too long, you're in visual intelligence and you're missing the shot you wanted. Now you just slide it over back to photo and you're there Um, But when you take the photo and you say, like where do I what kind of red blouse is Joanna wearing That goes to the Siri app then and you can go back and it's in there like a chat. It's it is it's all in if it's not a chat in The Siri app, it's not Siri I was testing this today, I think it's great like and it' and and it's prompting to testing the receipt feature, the split the bill feature. And so you like it's prompting too for more things in there that you're able to do So I think this is I totally it was buried before I think there was no If people knew about it, it's because they read someone or they saw someone that could do it, or they saw it in the screenshots, right? Be it was reallys when you would take a screenshot, it's really clear in that interface that you can use the visual intelligence to search And I think the way they have it right now integrated in the camera app is really smart Yeah, I do too. I think it's much more thoughtful, you know They haven't spent the two years doing nothing. They've spent them thinking like, well, how should this be? And I do think too, as pervasive as the Si and Apple intelligence features are throughout the twenty seven versions of the OS, They are they do not seem to me shotgunned like the stuff at Google IO in particular Gemini, Gemini, Gemin, Gemini and Microsoft too, I mean, it's co pilot.il E everythingthing's coopilot. I mean, somebody counted up how many co pilots Microsoft has, and it seems like an SNL skit. it's like they've got like over a hundred. There's like a hundred different coopilots or something like that. Apple's is much especially now it's much more thoughtful Well, so Google has like the entire vision of the future of computing Microsoft has the same vision, but they are Microsoft It' just like fundamentally less coherent I two AR. Google's like, all right, we can do everything for you. Yes. Okay, do you just want to tell us what to do? We we have access to the entire web U can we run Chrome, we'll just run Chrome on Google Cloud, which we also own We'll do that on your behalf and we'll click on the web for you. Why don't you why don't you spy some shit Right? And like That every Google AI demo ends in a transaction. It'ike just every single one is like, and now you've purchased the shoes. In fact, a robot has purchased many shoes for you B. Apple doesn't have that. They don't have this like end to end control of every single thing that will happen. They do on your device, but they didn't announce this like sweeping vision of the future of computing Because I don't think they want to disrupt the app model. They don't want to irritate all of you in like very serious ways. Like E everyone needs to make money in Apple's devices in a very specific way I think Google would love it if they disrupted the atlop Right? And everything was happening on the web in Google's Cloud in other ways I think Gle must to be protective about it. So the things they picked You know, if you're just to look at the list, you're like, oh, you are at free chat GBT about two years ago This is about the class of capabilities they've added very thoughtfully,? They now have a lot of data about what people are actually using these apps for, about what people want to do. And it is take a picture of a flower and tell me how not to kill it. and they will deliver that experience to you And if you willll notice, every single Apple demo ended with planning a trip They're like, get out of your house. like just leave It also added with planning a party Y. you're planning at some point you're gonna make a We're planning a part for the World Cup.. You' planning a party for a recipe of cookies. Lots of recipes. There's a lot of like you have a lot of friends and you need to make a party thing. There was one demo I got yesterday They werere like, and we've made the list of things you might need for the camping trip And I was like, Are you gonna? Yeah, yeah, I love that one. And I was like, Are you gonna plan the trip? And I'm like, no, and then they scrolled. And the next prompt was like, wouldould you like me to play the gym? I would love that one because I have taken my son camping recently and I wouldn't do like any of that back and forth. It was an example of I don't need to have a lot of friends or a lot of money to take a trip. Yeah I can just have camping supplies and get out of Yeah, just you, Siri and your family and you're gonna me you're going to make a plan together and you're going to leave. Yeah My view of this and this is what I was saying earlier about shherlocking free chash If you think, and I think the big AI companies really believe this, if you think this is the new paradigm of for change. which is think all their CEOs are set This is the platform change. We're going to talk to our computers, they're going take action on behalf, they're going do gentic stuff, whatever is going to happen And that will disrupt the app model andll get them all away from the Apple Tacks, all that stuff It might disrupt the phone entirely Well, then the tip of the spear is the free chat buttom Right. And if you're opening free chat GBT, not a billion users a week or opening free chat GT and doing something Opening Iye just layers on one more set of capabilities. If Google can get you to open Gemini somewhere at's some time R just desperately please click on this sparkle. And they can get you to use it And then they can layer around another capability And then eventually they're like Do you would you just like a weird pendant? And like you can just talk to that. Like they can get you there. And if Apple surelocks that If they build that thing into the operating system. In a way that's good and convenient camera opens to Siri visual intelligence instead of you opening. Google Lens or whatever it is they can preclude that next step for all these other companies. And I think that's why these things were limited Right? They weren't big agentic sweeping. We're going to click on the apps for you But they're going to keep you from opening those free apps I agree with that but I've been using it for the last twwelve hours And I do think their vision is a little bit different which is their differentiator, which is that we know AI is only as good as the data it has. And Apple has our data our personal data And find that was the promise two years ago.. That has honestly been the promise since the beginning of SyIi, a personal assistant And now they can actually do that If you're not if you're in that ecosystem. And to your point, layer that on top of the free chat Right? The free chat GPT, which, you know, people are talking about oh, my chat, my chat o can chat do what Siri can do? Okay, great Plus. now this access And that's where like I was not really clear on it from the presentation. they like you said like, you know, everyone's got their vision of the future of computing. playing with it in the last you know few hours, I see it now. So is your testing phone Youre obviously you've installed IOS twenty seven. And you got through to get the new serory. See, I did not get through yet. But I don't think it's any conspiracy Sorry for yous I think they're gating it. I, you know, yeah, it' They u can't save it The words personal Personal compute cloud, personersal, whatever it is.C PC. they kept saying PC. And The words PCC is on fire were like overheard by me yesterday It's like every in all of you downloaded use this. I think they're justort of gaining access it. Did yours also finishrivate Coud comp finish indexing? I don't know if it's finished. Let me check. All right. But it was still indexing this morning. Right. But it' been it's been indexed. I mean It's indexing, it's still in progress, but it's still has some of it. It has a ton of it I mean, just to give you an example that I was really blown away by just because it worked, but I like it's hard because You're just like, wow, this this finally works and you're trying to What is really great here is just that it finally works or is this actually great But I'll tell you the example and we can decide if we think it's great. You texted us I don't know, a week ago this And we've had a lot of we had a group texts and we've had a lot of texts since then about Lord knows And today I genuinely did not put this on my calendar. and I just said, Siri Please tell me when I'm supposed to be at John's thing tonight And it found your text message and said, John Gruber's presentation starts at seven o'clock tonight at the California Theater. He says you should get there at six o'clock. And it brought up that message Yeah. It's the real deal And I was like, wow, that saved me the time to go scrolling back. I went back and I did check to confirm that you really did. want me here at six o'clock. I was not here at six o'clock, to be clear. And I was like Wow, it works. Yeah. By the way, compared to any previous attempt to searchI message staggering improvement. Yes. That is true.. My phone did not explode. And I didn't get like from seven years ago, John wanted you at an event But I think that That access to that data, that personal and it said, right? this wasn't on my calendar Um I think that is their vision. So here's the dance I think is really interesting, right? that you're talking about messages. obbviously Apple has access for messages. Are you an Apple mail user? No, but no, but today you're like you're going to get reeled in. Yeah. Well, The Return of IMap by Joanna Ttern. Yeah, but there are some ways to get around it that I'm trying to figure Well, so what I think is really interesting is you look at what's happening Google's like, we're going to do gentic stuff. And maybe you can use whatever Android hooks to open your app to MCP in the way that Google wants to use it. Aentic stuff, somethingomething will happen Or if you don't do that, Google's like, here's what we're gonna do. We're going to virtualize Uber, We're going to run it in the background, and we're going to click around in it until weally want. And if you don't open your app to us, we'll just do it And you kind of ask them about it Y, Sir runs under like, are they cool with?' like w what? And you know like that's kind of their right. Like, you're abs on your phone and have you heard of Gemini And so you get all the way to, well, maybe we can just open Instagram and scroll through your Instagram DNs and maybe we can open whatever other mailout you have They've just got a framework for the data is in the apps. The apps are on the phone. We have Gemini. Gemini is't do that. I think if Apple did that on the iPhone, it would be nuclear war Yeah, Right. Like just straight up it would break the promise and all of the data that would make Siri useful across the board. They've got to get at it somehow I don't think Meta is going to open Your Instagram DM is to being indexed by the new spotlight And I think this is just going to be one of these weird points of friction where I think Google just has way more license to do whatever it wants with Apps on Android. generally Andro developers like, Oh my God. Yeah like Someone's using our app U it's right. it's a robot, but like I whereere's like there's just like too much money at stake in the abstrra model for Apple to break the fundamental promises in that Yeah, and it does come there's different ways of thinking about privacy. And Google and meta to name the two companies that make the most money, massive amounts of money quarter after quarter from advertising that is based on their profiles of the users and showing It might ads that are based on your interests. They keep that incredibly private to themselves, right? Like And my friend Ben Thompson often emphasizes it that they don't sell your information to advertisers. They wouldn't sell that information to anybody because that's the goldmine. The goldmine is that they're the only ones who have it. They use it. to figure out which ads to show you, which are. So in some sense, their platforms are private. If you trust Google and you put all of your information in Gail and Google calendar and stuff Google knows all of your stuff and Google has your stuff And the distinction Apple, I can't even if I counted it in the last forty eight hours how many times somebody at Apple emphasized the fact that Apple doesn't have your information. It's on your phone But it never goes like when you're using Apple Intelligence and Siri It doesn't go to them in a way that they ever keep it. And even when it goes to private cloud compute goes there, they send as little as possible That was part of the technical explanation. They figure out how to send as little as possible. It goes there, they compute the answer, they send the answer back, and they burn all records of the interaction. There's nothing there on device and it is a totally different way of thinking about it U and it is, you know, it's a vision they laid out two years ago. I think it is more clear now But that is the upside for, hey, how does Apple thrive in a post AI world where Normal people's interactions with their computing devices. and computing devices are almost all of our devices. I'd be surprised if this doesn't have a chip in it somewhere. That actually is ten times more expensive because that's thirty two giga away Yes, that's exactly right. I should crack it and steal the Ram when we're done recording the show The they they're they're not they're even saying it now. We worked with Google to use Google's models. They are not a model company. They are famously, everybody is talking about the fact that the other big companies are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on CapEx for data center AI infrastructure. And Apple's CapEx hasn't changed. the I mean, it's gone up, but like it hasntiked. sort of like reallocated ten billion dollars of ill fated car CapEx. But ten billion the whole thing everybody, the whole project titan, let's say it did cost ten billion do That's nothing compared to the CappeEx. These other companies are spending on AI. Apple's not doing it. So what's the upside for Apple? The upside is they have a billion plus users with all of this device, all this information on their phones spread across Who knows how many apps, you know, Well, somebody does counting them in the app store, but it is that App store model where your notes app may not be Apple Notes. You don't have to be all in on the Apple ecosystem. You could be a good notes user or bear or Literally, trust me, I was in a racket. There are thousands of notes apps in the app store. And if they Do the stuff with App intntense and the app schema, your notes from that app will be available to Apple Intelligence and Siri. You don't have to do it Apple's way in Apple Nes. You can do it And you'll be able to ask questions about what's in your notes and the other As less capable that Siri is as a chatbot compared to the others, it has access to data that the others cannot And I And I think this is a new level of trust that's going to be coming. Once people see Once people have the experience that I had today you with this small example, right? It was pretty innocuous, right? It's like I just it told me the time I needed to be here There's more information in our texts and there's more information that we want to surface. And so people are going to have to have a new level of trust with Siri because it will service that. Even when I was just talking here fore forget what I asked in the car before coming in here I said what could I do that's fun near the California theater? I have some time to kill.. don't know I don't know exactly what was the prompt or what was the thing, but it started suggesting things I could do locally, but also it had access to my voicemail So it knew that I had just gotten a message from my uncle who asked me to speak at his book club And it said should you could get back to your uncle about his book club engagement you would have some time to do that Okay, that's crazy. It really is. Right. And but what if that was sensitive information? Right, Right? I also have a very funny group chat with some friends and I was like, shit, I don't want that. right? Even actually funny enough, we have some things we probably in our group chat, we wouldn't want to be public. And when it's not bad, but you know, maybe we wouldn't want pictures. We would't want Apple to see it, right? We wouldnt we want it to be public And I was filming this video today and I was like, oh, please, don't, please Sir, do not talk about. Please, please, do not say that out loud, right And so there's going to be this new level of trust with that access to that data. And so I think We can it goes back to that tech talk. That is what they want us to know. that they are not the Googles, they are not the open AIs or the metas that are trying to make money Frag said I'm not gonna to sell you Thai food ads, right Right. this is like the fundamental paradox of this entire A store People buy iPhones and then they load up and all the data is secure. It's the most private phone in the world. And the first thing they do is they download Instagram and then they experience Instagram. and they're like, this phone's listening to me. hundred percent. What are you gonna to do? Like you load a bunch of apps from Google. R? Get an iPhone and you put YouTube and Instagram on it And like, well, yep, I guess these companies know a lot about you. Now, Google's position is, you know that YouTube is their interest graph They know what you're interested in because they have access to your YouTube account. they know what you're watching. Now they know your interest, they can feed that personal context and en it I heard that and I was like, you don't know shit about ight, my Ejen is mostly like trucks jumping over stuff, which is a huge part of my personality, but does not actually encompass like my full person There's there's just a real tension in how people actually use these devices, the apps they actually have on them. and their experience of privacy. The other example I'll give to you U you know, Photos has a search in it today And every like' know, eighteen months on the clock, there's like a little mini social media scandal when people realize they can just type underwear into the photo search and they can pull up a bunch of photos themselves in the underwear. And they're like, Apple has indexed all these photos.. And it's like the dumbest visual semantic search of all time. And everyone's like, this is a terrifing security breach You're going to do that with Siri now, right? Yeah. It just like wide access and like the level of trust is going to go Apple's going to have to earn that trust back in very serious ways Yeah, it's because Apple knows what their software does. Apple truly does know that their software doesn't keep a dossier of pictures of you in your underwear cloud that they can like look at and read that it really is just on your device And even the stuff like My pictures of you guys in it knows that's Joanna, it knows that's Ni those indexes are per device. The photos sync between devices and then each device is like, o, let me figure out who the faces are And that is definitely what's going on with the indexing in IOS twenty seven.. You install it on your phone, it takes days to index all your information and then you install it on your iPad. Well, then it's going to take days to index there because it doesn't just Transfer the index up and then transfer it down U which would be quicker, but is less private And it is it really is But do people believe it, right And the funny thing, I often say, I mean, I think everybody here, probably everybody in the audience has this conversation or With enough people in the audience, some of them probably do believe your phones listen, but they don't And you can download Instagram, put it on a fresh phone ' try to work on this story. My explanation of this is that no, but what people think people think it's listening because they could understand, well, I was talking about it and if it was listening, that would explain how it showed me this uncanny similar add to what I was talking about They understand that chain of events. talkaled about it. if it was listening, then it showed me the app And my explanation is, oh, what's really going on is so much more complicated and creepier. so much creepier than if it were you wish it were listening to you like you said. becausecause then you all you would have to do is walk away from your phone to talk about a thing that you definitely don't want to be indexed about. But the way that it knows your interests and what you pause on as you're scrolling and what you play and all that They know so much more. They don't need they like laugh at the idea of trying to circumvent the green light that comes on if they were going to try to listen to you. follow Adam Hara on Instagram highly regiment. This man is just like haunted by the success of Metazad now Like literally once month he's like I'm not listening to you. Like because he does a Q and I ever tried it. And most of them are good and they're just like into creators and he's like, here's trial its work. And then like once month he's like All right, so many of you have asked if we're listening to you, Let's good. and we're not. And all the comments are like, yeah you are And here're just like, well, clock ticket. Like It's been thirty days since you denied listening thing again It's sort of like a stage mentalist or magician. where like who's that guy He did the it was supposed to do the correspondence dinner, but that guy canceled, or like Kreskin back in the day. And it's like If you do an amazing enough trick of What number you're thinking of or I'm going to guess the combination to your locker at the gym. And it's like, holy shit, it's you know twelve, thirty seven, fourteen. It really is There's a lot of people are like that guy really does have mental powers right because that's the only way they can imagine it. And no, it's just a series of tricks, you know, But this is going to be to Jan's point. This will be the experience that many people have a series. It does have tons and tons of data from J even just your eye messages. Right. And like do you remember every message you've ever sent And no, it's. It's going to remember Ie messages. you don't remember sending and Apple notes you've made in twenty seventeen. There were so many moments today where again, small things I' like How did you know that? And it actually works. I mean, that I do like when I was able to do follow up questions and say, how do you know that? And it would point to the message orive Yeah. The one that they have did not explain to me, but I'm very curious about is when it goes out to the web. R And like, here's some stuff I found on the web for you, and I'm going to summarize this web page or' make you a table U is Apple indexing the web? That would be like huge news if Apple suddenly had a web index, right? They used Bing the old series They're not using Google as they've taken great pains to explain So where's that coming from? Are they gonna to participate in the Isn't this the Apple Bot sc that Right, But do they maintain an ongoing crawl of the web? This is a very intensive thing to do. And is that Apple Bot crawl of the web? B better and broader than we've thought. know do they have an index arrivals Google somewhere in the back. Right. And they have been using it for years, if you use Safari the auto suggestions at the top of the auto suggestion list that they come from Apple, not from Google or whoever your default search provider is know, which And hasn't that also been what the SI results have been? Yeah R but the bigger index was big At least for the past several years.. So againgain, they're just like, Where's all this data coming from Is Apple going to suddenly participate in the we read all the web pages and we're not sending any traffic debate that all the other providers are caught up in Are they gonna to get sued by a bunch of authors? becausecause they're summarizing the books One thing there's a lot of that is I think to come I do like that this they're doing some better job at sourcing than Chat GPT or Claude in Siri They especially on the audio when you're asking the newsar when you ask it questions, it's saying the source out loud. interesteresting. Yeah One of the weird things or unexpected is Theyd seemingly have or they're like stepping away from the extension system for Siri which two years ago debuted with ChatGBT as an official partner and led to the whole conflation of, o, that Apple Intelligence is Chat GBT. And day one, two years ago, Craig Federigi did the interview with I Justine. and said it was him and Jhn John Andrea and said right there, like ninety minutes after the keynote. And who knows? Maybe we'll have a partner like Google. they've got good AI, you know, we'll build on this. Well, here we are two years later and it's still just Chat GPT And they're not talking about it. and there doesn't seem to be any kind of API for anybody else to add an extension like that. And they've been very clear talking to me multiple briefings over the last two days that while Chat GBT is still a partner, if you want, you have to opt in, you have to go into settings. It is like kind of more buried in. So I found it as not easy to find I found it Yeah. And you have to specifically say, I want to ask Chat GPT. Right. So when you talk to Siri, it used to be, or if you're still on IOS twenty six, if you ask a complicated question Siri is like, I give up, I'm going to go to Chat GPT because you've allowed me to and it'll go to ChatGPT. That never happens with the Siri AI No matter how complicated the question, it's going to try to answer itself unless you say Ask ChatuBT, blah, blah, blah. No one is ever using ChatBT in the new series. R. Sam Altman, when he gets his new IOS. I's like angryer being like, Ask me Yeah Apple, you know, to be like, where is it? and then he's going to find it he's going to be the only person. there are rumors that open eyes you riling itself up to file a lawsuit for breach of contract for all this stuff Again, the were' not rumors, they said They didn't say we're filing a lawsuit. They said we're thinking about maybe filing a lawsuit. They Yeah,'re they're going to work themselves up into yet another distraction during their year of focus. Every three weeks Every three weeks, another openingir executive issues a memo about how they have to focus. It's very good. Like it's code re again My turn. And then one week later, they'll buy a podcast. Yeah. It's very good. Whatever's happening there is great I'm But you know, there were all these rumors that Apple would open the system up to other model providers I think that's related to pressure the European Union is placing on Apple ship something that's more interoperable. so it's not lockd down. You have gatekeeper status for IS in particular in Europe And the idea that you could just bundle this into the system and preclude a bunch of this competition in sort of this like shherlocking style I think that's where some of These affordances remain because they might just have to do it They might have to say, look, it's Si AI R Actually, you can set the system AI default ChatBT or claud or whatever it is that They're obviously in a fight It's like very clear they want to be in this fight I don't know which way it will break, but it doesn't seem as though They can just stay totally closed and say actually SII is the only system that works is the system defaults But I don't know what the answer is. I mean, and that does lead to the question with, you know the news with the DMA. and they announced it in the keynote. And then they had a newsroom press release on day one. addressing the, hey, this isn't coming to none of this new Apple intntelligence or Siri AI is coming to the EU anyt timee in the foreseeable future They also, by the way, very quietly in the same breath work and it's not coming to Cha H. But they can't like body up against the Chinese government You know, they can't put out a press release being like, we think China sucks. L that's not a choice for them. in a way that they can body up against the EU, which they really have, like a very aggressive posture against the Digital Markets Act in particular. The EU had a press conference today I don't know what his accent was, it was very charming and European. He's like, we think A could do whatever they want. It was very good. I encourage you to watch it They arere just That's just going to keep going Yeah, I mean, to the EU's credit, vast credit, the whole Organization is a series of liberal democracies and it's a continent of personal liberty and freedom. overall, it is not China But I do think Apple deliberately put them together of the two places in the world where we can't launch this are the EU and China. And it's like That's not a good look for the EU in terms of the argument that they're overregulated Yeah It's funny, you know, that you use pososition is not like this is safe it's like unsafe and we have to prredict cybertack. If we let the big operating systems bundled there AI by default, they will just win again And we would like to see more competition on more fair terms Now you can believe that or not, right? Like Will the ChatT app still just exist on the iPhone Will Google find more places to put their sparkle It's you know, like maybe it's all going be fun U didid that happen with the models like with the existing Astronom model? Like does Chrome exist? and new millions of people use it? despite so far existing But that's the EU's position is you shouldn't be able to bundle this stuff and user G ke for status. I think Apple's vision is, I think you said it earlier, John. they can't nerd any harder to solve a core problem of we don't want data for messages just leaking into some other system And you know, they laid out some approaches they had presented to the EU, and they said they got no engagement Again, it's like, Maybe there's no technical solution here the position of at least the European government is, you've got to propose something more than what you I do, I mean, I try to keep it short, but there's the position of the Chinese government is we're going to read your data and Apple's like, well, and we'll cave quietly a few months from. Yeah. And I guess the difference is with China, it's not surprising, right? This is the most controlled country in the world They control literally as much of their people's lives as they possibly can So the fact that they want to assert complete control over the AI that people use and that they see it as a threat to their Dictatorship Of course they do. Yeah. In China, actually Syri will be able to arrest you direct. Right. So like and again, Apple is, of course very, very careful about what anybody's And again, we can talk about this in a way that Jws or Craig would not be able to, you know Bye They're not going to say, yeah, we aren't surprised that we can't launch this in China We're not disappointed, you know They cannot put out a press release about that. Right. That's not gonna be a choice for them. Yeah They can't say it and it wouldn't be true. because I don't think they are disappointed in China. You know, this is pretty much what you expect. It would be great if China did liberalize. I mean, that would be fantastic. It would be one of the greatest things per person of the planet that could happen, right? Like a more liberalized China would liberate more people than any country in the world because it's the most populous country in the world Um With the EU, they can A, it's true that they are disappointed in their interpretation of the DMA. and B, they can say it publicly and they're not going to be put in jail or kicked out of the country. I think one of the risks they run here You know, Jeranna like interviewed one of the people that like, one of the college students that like booed the professor at the graduation speech I think maybe people in Europe just don't give a shit Like if you're like political cudl is like and you don't get AI, like I think a lot of people are like, cool, V great. Do it work? Like it did it? Well, that's why I think it comes back to like what would Apple's solution be in the EU And if it is actually it comes back to the things we were talking about before that make it the differentiator, which is access to that data. because otherwise it's just the Sherlocked Chat GPT You put a Siri app on that you get from the app store and nobody wants it. Yeah Right? Like already in just a few hours of using this, I'm seeing this is the big benefit. That's the pitch. Of course, though Apple's pitch too is we've got to keep that information private. If we open this up to others, we can't do that. Sorry. I'm just like for the sake of the argument Again, trucks jumping over stuff. I'm a proud America. In Europe, there iss universal healthcare, and when you upgrade to IOS twenty seven, your phone doesn't light itself on fire indexing all your messages Like that might be like a superior way of life. Do know what I mean? Like Yes Like I honestly wonder if we're withholding our AI features is a political winner right now in twenty twenty six It's twenty six x right,' twenty six. It's twenty twenty seven I got confused because the operating system That is what happens confused with the operating system. I've called in twenty twenty seven so many times But like if you walked around like the middle of the country and you're like you hate that data center. wouldould you like Apple intelligence? peopleople like, No, we'd like to burn it all down And that's I don't know how that will play out, but I don't 's So so Europeans here or are you like writing to your I don't know how it works It' just like mail letter to Brussels like anger However the U works, is there going to be some big democratic pushback? I think like everything, it's a bell curve. I mean I think it's very obvious and I don't there might be a different distribution of the bell curve in European culture versus American culture, but I don't think it's that different And there's a and twenty percent extreme that is very pro AI to some degree. you know, the further you go towards ninety nine percent, they're very, very pro And then there's a twenty percent that is very anti AI. and then there's this big middle that's like. I' know, I'm a little worried. I don't know my boss is talking like maybe he's going to, you know, really he seems very happy about maybe replacing P with AI U So I, you know, I don't feel too good about it, but some of these features sound cool. So, you know, but at that' sort of that guyss like, Yeahah, I'd love Siri not to keep sucking. Right. Right? Like thats same that's the same guy Yeah, the comparison to makeaking and we move on to this is like when Uber was banned in New York Like Travis Kanck was like, all right, the message in the Uber app is call your city cououncilman and demand Uber. And like millions of people just did it because the value of Uber at that moment in time was very high. There was also a subsize venture capital and was very cheap living in New York like the early twenty ten s was amazing for that reason. But the value of the app was enough to spur political action. Open question. I do not know the answer one. No, I think that's un I think you're right. I mean, it's unlikely we're going to see like riots in the street give us Siri. I don't know. It's Europe. Yeah. Like at any moment, there's a general strike. Give us Eiri now. I't I mean, I'm gonna put a s fighting in the back of. So if that happens, please invite me to your rally.. I don't know. That's a great video for you. I would love I'm on the next plane I don't know. I didn't have riots in the street from a pandemic on my Bingle card in twenty twenty either. So who knows? I don't know I feel like every there have been riots in the streets. throughout mankind's history, and I feel like every single one of them was notot on people's bingo cards. Look it's World Cup season. anythingything like that I think that to go back to it, I think the nerd harder argument is It goes back to the Arthur C. Clark line that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic And our technology on computers is getting way more sophisticated and it is way more pervasive in everybody's lives. And what they see is magic They were talking about a thing and then they got an Instagram ad for the thing and You could tell me the phone's not listening. I don't know, but then it's frigaking magic because I was just talking about it and now I see an ad, right? And it All this stuff, it's all amazing. I mean, we've got how many thousands of pictures of our children. It is amazing and you can find them You can say, you know, my kid's name on a swing because there was a great picture of him on a swing and it finds the picture. it's like, that's amazing U. But then it gets to the laws aren't written by people who understand the technology. And the easier way to understand it is the arguments over encryption. where the lawmakers around the world and it just keeps percolating up over and over again everywhere. It's whackam mole where they're like, we're on board end to end encryption. It's great. We want it. It's great But you got to let the good guys in to look for child pornography And it's like, no, but technically that's that's a impossible with end to end encryption. That's the trade off. And they're like, ye, you'll figure it out. You're the nerds, right? Nerd harder, right? You'll figure it out. You say it, you don't want to do this work. Its probably is hard work and it's not going to make you money, but you're smart, you'll figure out a way to let the good guys in in a secure way and I think that's the EU's argument with the Apple intelligence. And I saw that press conference that the guy had. and I think that's basically it where They want Apple to trust Third party AIs to have the access to your personal data on your device, As much as Apple trusts themselves with the code that they write But Apple knows that Siri and Apple intntelligence doesn't upload your personal stuff to a cloud. If they granted any third party, even a company like Google who they're back sort of in partnership with more than competition with in a lot of ways If Google software has access to the same stuff, it's all bets are off what Google's doing because it's Google software. Apple doesn't know what it's doing. So Apple is not going to trust anybody else's software the way they trust their own. And so if the rule is you can only ship what you trust The same level in the EU, what Apple's doing is, well then we're only going to ship the stuff that we would trust third parties. But the EU's perspective, I think boils down to just nerd harder and figure it out. likeike they don't noobody in the EU, that very sweet talking politician, he doesn't endorse the idea that Grock should have access to all of your Apple notes and do whatever it wants with it and you know post memes to Twitter with your personal pictures H. thinks Apple can figure out a way to make the third parties treat it with the same level of respect and privacy that Apple does with their own And they can't. it's impossible. O magic Rasard Maybe the whole error here on everyone's part is assuming that the operating system is the gatekeeper is the thing you have to disrupt, right Be the other model from all of these other companies is, well, what if you don't have a phone What if you just have a rig? What if you just have a peendant? You I see, Microsoft is very funny. Like the future of computing is smart Lanyards. You you're just the single most corporate company in the history of the world. You can't stop yourselves from being like, badge access is the computing paradigm of the future. Please stop U But like that's the idea, right? that actually all the logic will live in the cloud All the databases already live in the cloud And the idea that most of our apps are just front ends to cloud databases, well you could disrupt that entire And so saying, well, the operating system assisting will naturally win because it is the default That could be the wrong paradigm across the board. It could be Apple's wrong paradigm, it could be Europe'song paradigm I like honestly, this is the fight of the next ten. Yeah, not next year. Like next year you're all just going gonna buy next typhle. Ten years from now I think it's actually a question. And you know, in the world, there is a bit of an if, but it seems, you know, from what they've shown, from your personal experience today, Joanna, it seems like they're they've Got the real deal here. And this is something that people will actually use. You spent a year liivving the AI life And you seem impressed after a day. A, a couple hours, but There were many points in the day where I was like, wow There were also many points in the day where it Siri wanted to search the web and it was failing. so Clearly a beta. obbviously, we all know this is a beta By the way, definitely the most stable developer beta I've used in. I think so too. I mean. you asked like did you put on your personal device No, not yet. I did.. I mean, I was just like Yolo. Yeah, just like you know, because it needs all this. My other backups don't have all this other data in it Look, it might be coming for me and I'm probably know we regret saying any of this publicly. but Definitely feels the most stable, obviously still a beta, so many things today I was like Wow that works. I was talking with a developer last night and it is a very long time WWDC veteran Developers com in He had put it on his personal iPhone. and I was like, oh man, that's pretty bold on day one. Yeah. And he goes, no, but it's lucky. He goes, this one feels like a feels like a beta three Oh, that's good. And I was like, Oh, I understand that. Yeah. totally that's how I mean, battery is okay. Iven I've seen a few little Yeah. That's like beta three is usually like July, like early July.'suallyly when I do it. Yeah. Yeah That's exactlyac US. I've heard it's just like immedately faster like it is performing. Yeah accidentally, that's great. Yeah, I'll just say this before we move on from the seri thing in the EU is that I think if it's good, if it really is as promised, and I think it really might be I think this is really going to create a very interesting experiment in the world where if the EU and iPhone users there don't get these features like It is true. I write about this a lot. There's a lot of people who read Daring Fireball or listen to the show from the EU who donon't agree with my takes on the EU and the DMA. And a lot of them, you know dt Got to laugh two years ago 'cause they're like, o, we don't get Apple intelligence. Oh, horrible. Oh my gosh Well, now it may not be so funny to them, right? I really think now they might be missing out. And I think the message from Apple that The press release they put out the Background and on record with Jws today. public press briefing they had about it The gist of it is basically unless the EU changes their mind on the inter, they don't think the DMA needs to be rewritten, certainly not going to be revoked, but reinterpreted how it applies in this case These features are never coming to the EU ever. Something's got to got to give in terms of what they've told Apple where it's never going to happen. And I think that really makes for an interesting Experiment two years from now where everywhere else in the Western world Everybody on the Apple platforms has this It's like, oh, I can't imagine living without I think that timeline is a little more stretched Right, mean these featers are only in English right now They have a lot of localization work to do. They have a lot of more countries to get to U You know, I think these are opening salvos from I meanna Apple was like itself the size of a world government You know, it's like Well what if we dissolve NATO? Like that's like a thing happens. Yes. Like again, like I legitimately is like Our product line protects the sovereignty of Taiwan. Like that's just a real thing that Apple can l claim to So like boting up against the EU and everyone doing press conferences, that's today Eventually they're going to have to ship this thing in more languages and more countries around the world. And I don't think they're just going to be like, well, F it I think there will be more engagement now that these initial positions have been taken. I really don't think their statement like this is why I could never have worked at Apple 'cause my statement would have been F you, you know. Im We're not doing this. This is why like you're like more of a tnist Yeah. they went this is why Cook is still around. You know what I mean? They went to the EU and what did they call it? They called it it's the proposal Um trusted system agent. And they proposed this really and they estimated it would be an eighteen month engineering project build but it would be some kind of intermediate idiot layer that would give the user the ability to authorize the third party chat before it gets to the private data. ChatyBT wants to access your Apple nodes is yes or no And it's very complicated. would take eighteen months and they didn't want to spend eighteen months building it. And they said all the things that they've done to comply with the DMA, the way that they've now support third party web rendering engines that nobody uses, the way that they support third party app stores, which some people use, but they've done all these things. This, they said would be by far and away the biggest engineering project they would have to undertake more than all the other ones combined and that they didn't want to do it without knowing in advance whether it would comply. And the g of they explained it. And they said, this is how much we bnd over backwards trying not to say FU, they didn't say that, but that they went to the EU six months ago and explained their plans Joss said in the briefing, like you guys know, we don't tell other people our plans, but that's how important we felt this is. We went there, we explained it. We proposed this trusted system agent And we said W this be okay. And they were like Build it and then we will tell you Yeah And Apple is like we're not going at least right now, they are thinking we're not going to spend those resources to build it only to be told, no, it' still doesn't come I think it's very interesting to see how this plays out. It is they are very far apart. And I think the experience of the users is going to significantly diverge and it'll be interesting who's happier? I don't know It could be that the people without AI on their devices are happier, you know, Or they're just gonna to open clot. Like Yeah Yeah. like there's there's a lot ofasons that're going to want to and A wrapping up the I was in a briefing today and they even mentioned, they were talking about like the little efficiencies that they built Um I linked to a guy who took the one slide they had hundreds of features and he sorted them by category and it's like just an incredible web page of features. it's Little things, but then there's some things like again, I'm paraphrasase it Search in Apple Mail doesn't suck, you know U And I thought that was a funny moment in the keynote where They'd said that and it got applause because everybody kind of knows, yeah, search sucks in Apple mail and it's sort of like, what is going on? Why am I using this for email I've asked myself many times. I like so many other things about the app and it's like Why can't it search? This is a solved problem. But this list is so long and they were going over the little things, the little efficiencies animations that are smoother And they brought up Snow Leopard. They said really is, you know, yeah U Leopard fans. ning In my opinion, the singleest operating system ever. I know. Neili Without a prejice But like, you know, it's like the music of your youth is like still's music. Like Snow Leopard is the operating system of my youth in like a very specific way I The comparison, I think is super interesting R that they' refined this. I mean, I have to use it If you had to it installed on it It's funny because the Snow Leopard Mac app paradigm I mean this is when you were really coming up where you were like, there are Mac apps and the design quality of a great OS ten app at that time And the ethos of these apps is really meaningful. And you can actually craft a computing experience with small developers who are all building stuff together. That is gone. Like I don't see that on the Mac It's like it's you, maybe a couple of great apps you love, and then an oceion of electron bullshit. Right? And's like I'm curious. I'm sorry, it's like the electional people are clapping for themselves, right You should have a lot of feelings what were you just did. U U It's like, they're gonna find you after this, like R I'm like honestly wondering if that comparison will hold if the experience you be using apps on a Mac is still so like web based in the way that so many abstracts I don't know. I'm very optimistic. I just wrote about it like a week or two ago. You know, sometimes the last two weeks are sort of a blur, but you know, the vibe coding moment is rejuvenating the okay, it's just one guy but he's made a really cool new Mac app and it is a real Mac app. And it's like I've definitely. I mean Jason Snell wrote about it Everybody and just talking with other people in immediate Our email boxes are full of PRs about new Mac apps in a way that hasn't happened for a very long time. And I think that's awesome. That's really good And I think it's also . I don't take it Cincidental? I don't know, but it just seems like inside Apple, they go through years long cycles of, okay, this is what this year is gonna be about Last year was clearly the liquid glass year. L we've got a new look We want to launch it. We're not going to do iPhone first and then a year later, bring it to iPad and two years later, bring it to Mac Like they did with IowOS seven and the flattening. they were like, we're going to do it all at once Whatever happens and it's like, well, we saw what happened. Taho And this year it just seems like inside the company, it's like, yeah, we're going to do like little efficiencies. We're going We're going to do that And I don't know why Apple it seems like needs to go. like it's going it's probably going to be like five or six years before it happens again, right? And we're all going be like When I was thirty one and MacO is thirty one come out, we're going to be like, remember twenty seven. Yeah Wh let us know when they're gonna to do it. They should do it every five years,ight three years. It's like somehow they think only splashing new features get people excited. But it really does seem like, hey, your battery will last a little longer and everything's gonna be smoothother. Gs people excited. Or the Wiifi cellular handoff. Yes example Rad. Give us like three of those every year and we'll be very happy. Every single person with an iPhone I don't know anybody who doesn't have Wiifi at home. So every single person leaves their house, whether they're in their car or on foot and their iPhone tries to stay connected to their wiFi too long. Yeah. Every single person, you start explaining this problem Every person I know is like, oh yeah, yeah, it's like I forgot to get the map And I'm like halfway out my driveway and then my phone cannot get the map because it thinks it's on the Wiifi and can't I don't wan to complain because they say they've really fixed it this time, but it does seem like it took a long time to fix it. Like why don't they have these? Why are we talking about Snow Leopard, which was like two thousand six? Yeah. Next year, they're gonna solve the problem two thousand My wife starts the car, my phone immediately goes to Bluetooth in the I haveve been talking about can they solve that though? Is that just a blluetooth thing? I actually brought this up in Is that an apppple thing or is that just a Bluetooth thing It harder did I mean don't I think you can figure that out. I think you can be like this phone is not in this car Like physically, you can unlock a car door with an iPhone now. So Alic could just like say, we're cutting off the Bluetooth signal right here for that car right now There's this audience for that is our I don't have helpful O helpful. Let's meet up after. Yes. And then we're gonna chase the electron guys Be my car ye Last topic. Yeah We've barely mentioned John Turnis because John Turnis wasn't in the keynote. And it's like I sort of thought, ah, they'll figure out some way to put him in. And I thought the most obvious way would be to announce new Mac minis and Mac studios, which are overdue. And maybe the RAM crisis has come for Apple, I don't know They didn't come and the keynote came and went without him But clearly, yearsars from now, when people look back at twenty twenty six and Apple People are going to remember that was the year that Tim Cook stepped aside and became chairman John Turnis became the new CEO. This was Tim Cook's last keynote U How are we feeling about that I think there's a reason we didn't see. I think it was intentional September will be his moment. Yeah. He will come out. It will be his moment. and there was all this nice kind of goodbye to Tim the beginning of Craig's speech at the beginning, the end Tim sign off at the end. I think that was all very well crafted. Yeah, I think it's September it's on I mean the second for it's on for John. them No way I For you. I am all for fifty year old. Johns who wear you know, gray colored shirts doing well in the Ale world. So more power Turnis did make one appearance. There was like a welcome dinner for media and creators the night before. and he was there. there's lots of selfies you can see bunch people took with him. So he was present. He wanted to be known. I've But the second I saw in the state of the Union, they're like, in the IOS simulator, you can stretch the window. It's like, oh yeah, he's gonna tonounce the folding phone. L this is his moment. Yeah, that's his moment. I really think, you know, they've made such a big deal about is a product guy, He comes from that lineage. They've made it abundantly clear Uh you know, Tim Cook scaled Apple in a way that maybe no one else could have possibly done. And I think one of the weirdest things about Apple right now is they make a lot of products, but not a lot of different kinds of products There's like sixix hundred iPad SKUs Right? But they don't make a lot of different things. And I think this next era is actually no one knows what the form factor of computing is going to be So you need the product person with a real sense of Clarity and coherence are what Apple has to contribute to invent whatever next turns of like form factors there are And it's like right now the list is Maybe the airPods will have cameras in them I p had on a robot arm. it's just like all over the place And that's actually, I think that's the stamp I'm looking for. Whereas the Tim Cook era was like every single year We will make ten billion iPhones. And almost all of them will be perfect, which is a staggering achievement. Right. But now that machine has to make different stuff I think that's very true on hardware and he's this product person clelearly on the hardware and worked clearly on the silicon and all of that I amm really interested to see what's going to happen on the software. And we haven't talked we've talked a lot about software in Siri here, This future of Apple and vibe coded apps You wrote something recently on this and I'm just really interested in the app company. There's an app for that. and now the world can now go make apps. We saw a little bit of this in the extensions that they're allowing you to make in Sfari. Yeah I've good at shortcuts Yeah. I I've changed These little that and the extensions you can make in saafari, I think is Apple dipping the toe into personalized software. And I think that's a big future for them. Yeah, I do too. And I think it's really interesting because like with the You don't have to come up with the idea for a whole website It's just, here's a website I use all the time and there's a thing that annoys me. try to make an extension and I just fix this website in this one way for me. and if it works, it is peopleople are gonna freaking love it, right? The most interesting part of that demo, I don't know if you allall used this sw you're like I'm going a prompt to make a custom Safari extension. And the first thing it does is it goes and searches the app store for extensions that might already do what you want Which first of all, I have no idea they were far extensions. It like what are you talking about? Like what is this list of extensions?ike where did it come from U, But again, they can't break the paradigm. They can't immediately And I don't know how many like Safari extension developers we have in the audience or the world All right. Well, Apple's not disrupting but like It's just a jump to being like, well, I don't want to pay for this extension or downostly it. Like I' just want to hit create. and let it do it myself. Yeah They tightened the rules in the A store just today. The apps the app store have to add real value to the store. It's a very subjective rule But you can tell, I think they announcecedstterate, it's like a thousand apps an hour have being submitted to the app store. R. So they've got a big issue coming like garbage, vibe ced apps are going to overwhelm their system But at the same time, this is what everyone wants to do all the time Or make it so there's not a platform that has to be in the app store So people can share apps and a smaller, like a test flight Right Be you've suggested this, right. Yeah. Like I have a an app I want to share with you guys in our Chat I'm going to put it to test fl and I'm going to share it to you guys. That would be great. But I do think something like that has to happen at this point because it's too easy and it's going to make the whole platform stand out if they don't allow it. And like regular testingit can I just That's replict, that's lovable. Like that's all those platforms You are describing fllash Like in the realest way Right? Like allow there to be a secondary framework for apps that another party controls that allows you to cross It's the same apps, but in a smaller circle. Like if you're a developer and you have a test flight, test flight they' cool HTML five apps. Sure. ye.. that we share together Test fllight itself can distribute to up to ten thousand users, right? And that's I'm on some apps that can't be in the app store that are like close to that. It's like there is Not an underworld, but like a grreay market test fl popular test flight apps that aren't in my app store And Apple does look at them, but like something we're like, hey, I want to make an app and I just want to share it with my family, but it's a real app Like why can't you just do that yourself? Like you shouldn't really need to have much more than a automated review to make sure I don't know, X, Y and Z and I think all this stuff is I gotta playing up pot Be I think Apple is allergic to third party app frameworks in their app store and particularly in the iPhone. Yeah. Well, and the other thing too is it is a moment in addition to just AI in general and I think it's pretty clear that Tim Cook's Stance on the app store is sort of We want our thirty percent. We you know, like ultimately it just comes down to He'll listen. I'm sure he's always very polite and then it comes down to yeah, we'll take our thirty percent. Yeah. It's very Hoyood He takes all the meetings.ight. Yeah. It's a great idea. We really love your pit. We're going to follow 's, you know, I've mentioned it before. It was, you know, I don't know, like early. I mean it was way early because they weren't even at a billion one billion dollar run rate But they, you know, the app store was clearly growing and it came out in the epic lawsuit. I'm pretty sure I read it on the Verge where the it was an email Phill Schiller where he was like, hey, maybe once we get to a billion dollars a year run rate, our take Why don't we just start lowering the commission from seven thousand thirty and keep it at a billion? and it'll, I don't see what happens And I'm sure Tim Cook listened to it and it was like, that's an interesting idea. and then it was, you know, we know what actually happened, which is, we'll keep it at thirty Yeah, then we'll pressure everybody to do subscriptions. Yeah. I mean, this is the danger. like I don't think it's next year. I think it is the danger of the next ten years is that Apple pushed everybody to make their apps and subscriptions Often in like very coercive ways, we've heard all of those stories over the years now And maybe users are like, I don't want to pay five dollars a month for whatever basic app that I'm paying five dollars for my calorie tracker. I'm just going to vibecode my own and now I have this and I can distribute this to all my friends and this craters their services line of re This is maybe not flash, but it is the most direct threat to the service's line of revenue is what they call the S apalypse, right? All these things are gonna to go away because you could just make your own cheap clones. But like what's Apple's version of is? Oh you can have Rplet Rplt cost two hundred dollars a year. Right If you want to run vibc ad apps, we're just going to we're going to We extxtract the money from you. So basically they push it off to somebody else's problem. Yep, but like and will give sixteen dollars on for year.ight. And I just see like Some things are going to happen that disrupt the existing model and there will be a lot of reactions in response Well, and that's why I think it's an interesting time for this CEO transition because and we don't know, honestly, in some ways, John Turnus and you know, because his background, what we know him from is the hardware. and it's been a great run of hardware. across all of Apple all of Apple's hardware products under him. It's therefore no surprise that he rocketed up to, hey, you're the next CEO But we don't know John Turnis's thoughts on the app store I don't know, but it seems like a good time for maybe somebody with a Hey, we don't have to do it the way we've been doing it and we can relax on this. And I really, really am convinced that a more relaxed approach to What number of absence subscriptions Apple takes a thirty or fifteen percent cut from is not going to adversely affect Apple's bottom line Like they're good R now I mean, as long as there are candy crush wheels. Exactly Um And I guess the other thing and you alluded to it, Joanna was you know, in hindsight, I guess it kind of makes sense that this was Tim's Goodbye keynote and he opened it. It's a shame that the on stage in Apple Park introduction before they played the movie, introduction by Craig Federigi isn't something the public can see Because it was really nice. And it was the most personal, I think I've ever seen Craig Federigi be on stage Really, really nice and And Tim came out on stage after that to introduce the movie and he was emotional in a way that he wasn't in the filmed team here In the film keynote, he was very much in character Tim Cook you know Uh screen. Tim Cook's role now is to manage the Trump administration and the Chinese government It's going to be less fun Why? and And think about like what I really do think ultimately as time goes on and we look back assuming John Turnnis does a good job and everybody sees it that way, I think people are going to look at ook's decision and the way he handled this. I think the potential is there for it to be one of the biggest parts of his legend and just look at In politics, how many like go through the US Senate and look for how many of them are in their eighties, right? O how many presidents we've had in recent years in their eighties, right? Now we're at two Uh there is a hey, time to Maybe let the younger generation take over mindset that isn't happening And here's Tim Cook only in his sixties, stepping aside for somebody who's fifty or fifty one or something like that idn't have to, right? I don't think Tim Cook's hand was forced by the board. I think if Tim Cook wanted to stay another five or ten years, he could have But I also think that after fifteen years, it is just sort of good for Apple to get new leadership at the top Yeah And we're kind of living, we've just seen half of it And then I think in September, we'll see the second half, which is a no Tim Cook all John Tarnis keynote introduction of the phone. is it live It's never alive again. But it would be that would be interesting if it were She's just gonna fold and unfold the phone. Yeah you' just like, lookook, it works. It's real It's happening I right in the age of AI, all this like hot new technology, the hottest product that we cover at the virch is the MacBook meo Yeahes. It's an iPhone chip that runs MacOS us and it's like Yeah, you could have had that idea at any point in the last five years. L maybe that is a sign of something new, a little something a little more accessible, a little more open more willing to drive change that I mean, it just needs to be said that Cook ow was defined by this very rigid sense of what Apple Right? they were I always come back to the Apple Watch So the first Apple watchatch announcement, you saw that they were like looking at the jobs pattern of it like how to do a big product announcement. And they're like every paradigm shift that Apple's ever done has had a new input method And they like did like ten minutes on add dital And it's like, well You know, like you had to get out like you need to get out of yourself a little bit. That's what I'm hoping for in this new era is they will be less self serious in a way that lets them try new things and maybe even fail which brings us, I think, ineraably to the Vision P I believe. I do. I'll just signen you up for that. add to everybody watching us on their Vision Pro. Oh, right. Yeah. I believe. M. I think that's pretty good. I have some thanks to give. I want to thank our sponsors, Details Pro, the great design tool Flighty who is hiring, go look at their career site and finalist, a great Day plananner for IOS, iPad, Mac, Vision Pro. I want to thank everybody here at the California Theater. They are so nice, so easy to work with U Paleb Sexton, my audio editor. he's here, taking care of, making sure everybody can hear us and that the recording has good sound. Adam Lisigor and Jose Marquez from Sandwich Vision Everybody watching on Sandwich, you can It the theater app, thank you Our announcer, I think I forget to thank him every other year, Paul Cosis, who does a great job calling me out on stage My wife, Amy, our executive producer and fixer of random problems Everybody here in the audience, thank you all for coming It is so exciting to get out in front of you. I get nervous every year. I'm like, whyy do I do this every year? And then you guys welcome me and I'm like, oh, that's why I do it. You guys are great And then last but not least, Joanna and Nli, my friends, and great panelists. Thank you. Thank you Gake up L