Siri AI and Personal Context

We should start the show . Actually, maybe this could be the show, Jason. I haven't even looked at the safari and web kit twenty seven changes, have you? No, although don't most those things show up in the purple safari . Yeah, yeah, purple safari, Safari STP, I always call it STP because that's how I launch it. Safari tech preview . Or actually Safari technology preview, quite the mouthful, but right. That's that tends to have the stuff that's going to be shipping later on in the final, I don't know. We record so many of these podcasts using browser based tools and almost invariably they demand that you use Chrome, which takes me unpleasant ly back to the days where everything was best an internet explorer , but I have yet to get a good explanation from Apple about why it has failed to support large swathes of the web RTC frameworks that are used by Chromium browsers and all of these web apps. And it's very frustrating because Safari is so compatible in so many ways and yet they seem to have drawn the line here and it means that I just have to keep Chr ome around to record podcasts. Yeah. What are you using for? Are you using Chrome Chrome? I am using Chrome Chrome because I could not care less . Like I have no opinions about I'm a safari user. I'm very happy in Safari. And so when they say use Chrome, like I stop and I'm like Chrome, fine. Got it. I am recording this on this little podcast workstation I have in Chrome Chrome . But on my main mac, I think I've deleted all other Chromium browsers except one, which is a newcomer called Helium. Have you seen helium? And I just wrote it down so I should put it in the show notes, but it's free. It's, I don't know who's making I just saw I don't have it off the top of my head, but somebody just wrote a review of it. It is like the degled Chromium browser that I've sort of been looking for. And for a while I used brave and brave isn't bad , but it still is trying to steer you towards their brave search engine and helium, it is a plain browser with no opinion on where you search and it doesn't add any AI. It's just a chrome without any other junk, no ask gemini thing in the corner . And it has native support for Kogi as your search engine so you can log in. You know, you don't have to use any kind of tricks or anything. You can just pick Cogi and sign in. Anyway, I'll put a link in the search. I should use it down here too. I don't know. And every week or two there's an update with a new Chromium engine. Anyway , these things never last though. That's the thing because I think it's hard If it's a free effort, it's like eventually your willpower to keep maintaining a free browser runs out after a while and then you have to go look. Remember Camino? That was really I mean, that was a good example of this where somebody was like , I can do a proper Mac version what I do remember was Firefox. I don't even remember what it was the Firefox engine wrapped in a truly native MAC appac. And what was his name Dave I want to remember it but I'm going to have to look it up but the ultimate remember it can't remember it yeah but it was sort of a weird proof of concept for what became Safari. Even though Safari didn't use the Firefox rendering engine, whatever it's called. Dave Hyatt. I didn't I did not have to look at it. It came to me. Dave Hyat t and he was also a great blogger for a while. I think he's still at Apple, but he's just one of these guys who decided to drop off the public internet and can't blame them. You're either full fledged internet personality or maybe you just want to get work done. But yeah, so Dave Hyatt worked at Netscape and then ended up going to work for Apple, but in there that was very much day an era where it was sort of like nobody really knew what a proper Mac app is and a lot of stuff was built in the sort of it's unique let's just get it up and running and it'll look terrible and then Camino felt like a good app, which is why we used it for a long time. But it was also an open source project with a small group that was using somebody else's browser engine and I wish all of those people well, but you're right. It just tends to not work in the long run because few people use it and there's more overhead and then invariably some part of the API gets cut off and you don't have a way forward and then that's the end of it . Yeah, it is kind of crazy to think about it that there was no system level web kit . So it was like this it was a very long time ago, but Kamino was a truly native MacApp but wrapped the Firefox engine and the Firefox engine , just the rendering engine so badly wanted to be the same on every platform that it was hard to get native stuff in the engine. And it was sort of like the way that Firefox was engineered back then that the Firefox app itself, the official Firefox app, was also written in the engine. So it was it was more than a web rendering engine. It wanted to be a UI toolkit too. And Camino was like, no, No, you' youre're just going to render web pages in a rectangle and we're going to draw the actual browser using Coco . Yeah, that was, I think the key thing is in that era, they were so focused on building the engine that they're like, let's just build a base of cross platform browser framework around it. And the Camino project was like, how about a good app with that at its core? Which is what many other browsers did. It's what Safari did with a different engine. And yeah, it's actually a great example of, I think maybe even in the early days, how there are a lot of people who are really invested in web technologies and we love them, right? We love them, but a lot of the people invested in web technologies have this moment where they it's all you ever need is web technologies. We can do everything on the web and the browser chrome doesn't really matter and it matters. So you end up with these scenarios where sometimes like Mozilla is a great example of Firefox where it always felt kind of to me, it always felt kind of clumsy and not quite right . But good browser, but then the other part wasn't there. And so Camino was a great example of people saying actually the Chrome matters, ironically, Chrome. The browser chrome matters. And I mean, Chrome, that's how that's part of what Chrome is. Chrome is at least one of the original ideas was we're going to build an app around this browsing framework. And yeah, the browser app should be good and they should be, I would say platform native because what are we even doing here? The browser engine shouldn't be, right? The browser engine should be the same everywhere more or less because the web should look like the web wherever you go, but the tool you use to browse should feel like your platform, I think. Man . Well, here we are . Waste ten minutes. Instead of talking about baseball we're talking ball keyboards now old web browsers. Old web browsers . Media browser dot org is still up though, so everybody can just check that out. They're still paying that bill. I saw you last week at WWDC. You saw me. It was good to see you. We sat next to each other at the keynote, which was fun. We were both I used a notebook. I used a Proporter's notebook. I did the Grouper method. That's right.. You did I noticed that. I've aspired to that for a very long time, but I was so trained to be covering breaking news when I was in Mac World that it's been hard to kind of let it go, but I decided I was going to fully embrace the sort of slower, deeper set of notes where I can sort of circle things and draw arrows toward things and stuff like that. And so I felt great to sit next to you because I knew you were also going to just take notes in your notebook. We also sat either right next to each other or sort of next to each other at the tech talk that was after the keynote. I think I was I sandwiched between you and Mike? I think I know Mike was on the other side of you. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure. Maybe I had John Vori's next to me, but yeah, we were all yeah, we were all there right behind the big wigs . Yeah. Well, we were in the second row, which was the first row they would let us into because the first row was reserved for Apple Senior Executives. I had Federico next to me because I have a picture of Tim looking up Tim and Turnus looking up at Craig Federici on stage, but Federico was to my left and he has that shot that he posted, which is just John and Tim looking up into the Apple logo on the stage and it's like oh I didn't see that but I was one over that. So I didn't see that. Did he post that on Mastodon or something that he posted he wrote a blog post about sort of ten years of covering WWC and it's one of the pictures in there and it's great. It's just out of context. Whereas I like mine because I felt like that entire tech talk . And maybe some of it was knowing the context and some of it was just sitting right behind Tim Cook and watching Tim Cook watch Craig Federigi, but like I was so nervous for the guy and my picture is sort of like Craig's on stage working really hard as John Turnis and Tim Cook are judging him for how he's doing. Don't say anything dumb, Craig. You better get this right, Craig. Because I mean, I think Craig Federick is under some pressure. He's not the chief software officer, right? He's still got his old title and it's his job right now to deliver some real mission critical stuff over the next year or two . And I felt those vibes a little bit and how much of that is me versus the room ? I don't know, but he's on stage sort of sweatin' and working hard with his team up there as the current and future CEOs sit down there and judge. I mean, there was something I don't know, I felt it. Yeah , it I know what you mean. It was it was a thing and I was glad to have had a well I was gonna say front row seat, but that's a second row seat , but a front row seat to the front row. Yes , to sort of see it. And it's like, oh yeah, this is why you show up early. So you get a good seat for things like this. Federico, to his credit was the one who basically was the pioneer and was like, I'm sitting in the second row. They won't tell me I can't. I'm just going to go sit right there. And then he just waved us all in and we were like, okay, well I guess we'll sit in the second and then Tim Cook comes and sits right in front of me. Well, the way the funny part was it was supposed to start at noon. A , the actual keynote was very short. Well one of I haven't looked it up, but it may or may be the shortest WW C keynote ever. I mean, if not, it's got to be close. I think it was seventy four minutes . It was an hour and fourteen minutes or sixteen minutes or something like that. And for the last few years, they were all the last few were like an hour forty five, an hour fif,ty fifty minutes. I don't think any of them went over two hours, but they were all closer to two hours. So the keynote was short and we had plenty of time to get there, but it's a fairly small room. How many seats you think in that developer center theater? Oh, I'm really bad at that. I don't know. I am too. I'm really bad too. Like it's a small , it's maybe yeah. Yeah, I mean, maybe it's two, three hundred, but it's it's wide and not that deep. Yeah, and it might be three or four hundred, but it's not it's more like a community theater, right? Yeah . Yeah. Because it's outside , the outside viewing of the keynote is they're pretty liberal with press passes. I'm glad I'm glad they are. I saw lots and lots lots of people who I know don't get invited to every event. That's great, but this because it's a smaller inside thing, it was only a subset of the media who got the, what was it like a purple? We got the little purple card. Yeah, little purple card on our badges . We got there. It was supposed to start at noon and it's like eleven fifty nine and that's when Jaws and Turnis and Trudy Miller from PR come in and I cracked a joke, like nice to come in at the last minute and Jos laughed and Turnus laughed and everybody waved and we're like, oh, we got good seats . And then Cook came in at, I don't know, like twelve on the dot Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jen, I was the lights went up and I have to admit I felt the oh I'm not making a joke about him Trudy So Trudy from Apple PR she used to do product PR and I know her from way back . She's I think she's on executive PR now and so she was in that seat and turned around and just chatting with me for like there's there's a long funny story about how back in the day when Lex Friedman worked for Mac World, he would occasionally leave her messages and she wouldn't call him back. And he would leave like increasingly long messages where he would have like these kind of like chatty. It was it just it was very endearing. And so I said Lex is high and she's like, oh, what's Lex up to these days? It was very nice. And then there was a moment where she just got tapped on the shoulder and disappeared because then Tim sat down and I was like, Oh, right. I see. She was just holding holding Tim's seat waiting for Tim to arrive. And then she moved down the row a little bit , but right yeah, that was weird. That was I mean, I've never afterward I said hi to Tim Cook. I've literally never interacted with Tim Cook in my life. I interviewed Steve Jobs, right? But like I literally have never interacted with Tim Cook. John Turnis knows who we are. He said hi to me. He said hi to Mike. He said hi to you. He's either either he knows who we are like for real Z or he's really well coached. But we were at an iPhone event I think, a couple years ago where the same thing happened. We were standing there and John Turners just walked up and said, Hi John, hi Jason. I am pretty convinced that Tim Cook has no idea who I am, but I did get one kind of like handshake before he goes. I kind of watched you doing it because we filed out to the left. So I was leaving first and then I heard you talk talking to Tim and I was like, oh I'll eavesdrop on that a little bit and I heard what you said. It was pretty much what you just said. was Yeah, it very much like, I think I said something like Thanks for all your work or whatever. 'Cause it's like how can you encapsulate? And it's complex, but my feeling was sort of like I have been writing about you and the work that you do for longer than you've been CEO and you get to retire now more or less. So I kind of wanted to say good job . I'm not an investor. You didn't make me any money, but I did write about all your work and that's my profession. I just, I don't know. I've had that moment where it's like, I don't need an interaction with him Cook, but I'm never going to get the chance again and he's standing right in front of me, shaking other people's hands and I'm like, okay, I'll do this. That's fine. I always feel like with famous people , especially like the biggest gift I can give a famous person is not bugging them. So I generally don't do that. I had that moment where I'm like, Oh, George Lucas. When we moved to Marin County, George Lucas is literally at the next table at the shopping mall at Christmas time when we went to get lunch. And my gift to George Lucas was we didn't say anything to George Lucas. Like that seems like the nice thing to do. But in that moment where Tim's not going anywhere he's stuck in the middle of there waiting for everybody to file out before he can disappear. And so I took that moment. That was mine. It did occur to me and I'm sure he knows who you are. Now whether he can put a name to the face . I don't know. Like he probably shouldn't be wasting time on me. I'm sure he knows six colors, right? And especially just because you Six Colors has so thoroughly covered the quarterly calls for so long. I mean, I would honestly say that it's sort of the canonical site for the quarterly calls. And it's not like Tim needs to go to the web to get to get the charts and graphs of Apple's finances , which would be funny if he did. I'm laughing at here . What I say, bring up the transcript . Right . But I think it's so prominent. I'm sure he does. But it is interesting and it did strike me in that moment in the Tech Talk Theater in the second row Turnis and Cook . I took a couple pictures. I got a couple good ones of Turnus and Cook next to each other because I was so close . And it occurred to me like when Turnus sat down I could crack a joke and I do know Turn Tisurn.us was on the talk show live back when people like that used to appear on the show two years ago, three years ago. I don't know if it was the last one that they appeared on or the second to last, but Turnus was there . I think it was the two years ago when they announced Vision Pro and it was yeah and Turnis did the first half of the show and then Rockwell came out and took his spot for the second half of the show sounds right Federigi and Jaws stayed throughout and I ran into Turnis here in Philadelphia when he because he went to Penn did we told this story on the last time I was on, which is like he's literally walking down the street in front of my house. And I was like, that's John Turnis. I was like, I guess I should go outside and say hello. Yeah. And I did. So I do, you know, I definitely know him to say hello to. And he was on my show and I've seen him milling about outside Steve Jobs theater. I don't know which events they all blur together, but like sometimes they'll have us up there, you know, on that outside level of Steve Jobs theater before letting us downstairs for an event and I've talked to him for thirty seconds there and there did I never had like an on the record interview with Steve Jobs but, I spoke to him in person twice , including one that was like an off the record briefing. It was me and MG Siegler and a guy from the New York Times a couple of the times in the USA today writers are long gone. They're not even they're not bylines that are pure anymore. Like Ed Big and Yeah. That was the one and then I wrote about it when Jobs died that it was it was because like the WWDC the year that he died. So I guess twenty eleven after the keynote and I wrote about like I mentioned I just noticed because and that was one too where I took a good seat. They let us in and the way I've told the story is it's the closest I'll ever feel to when Lando Calrizian is taking Han and Leia and Chewy to dinner and they open the door and holy shit there's Darth Vad er at the end of the table. They didn't tell us who we were meeting with. They were just it was Steve Dowling at the time of Apple PR and they had me in MG B exact guy, yeah. Miguel somebody from the New York Times and somebody from USA today. So it was just four of us after the keynote upstairs at Moscone and it was like it was running a little late and they took us it was like because it's Moscone . So it wasn't a room. It was like a room they made with curtains and there was like a table a long table and Phil Schiller was in there . A couple other people were in there, but at the end of the table was Steve Jobs and I was like Darth Vader right there. Yeah, and I thought the way that Han Solo took out his blaster and started shooting, I just was like, I'm taking the seat next to Steve. And I said I just marched in. I was like, to hell with these other guys, I'm taking that seat and sat right next to him. So I've met him and he emailed me like twice and then I of course emailed him back . The only times I've ever seen Tim Cook were tally random. One time I saw him he walked past me downstairs in one of the years when WWDC was at the San Jose Convention Center. Oh yeah. Outside the remember they had like a media green room in a weird space and they were it was like in Vegas vacation when they go to the mirage and they check in and she's like go to the slot machines then make a write, go to the black ackj tables. If you get to the second set of elevators, the ones that have gold buttons, you've gone too far, go back to the ones with the silver buttons and hit up. You know, and it's like really, really complicated. It was like, here's how you get to the green ro om and I'm out there waiting and it was locked and you had to like wait for like someone from PR to let you in. So I'm just standing there annoyed that the door was locked and mildly annoyed , I'm easy to get along with. And then Tim Cook just walks right past me and I was like, Hey, John Gruber. And he was like, Hey, how you doing? But he didn't stop walking , which is like a patented famous person, important person and move. And I was just like it's funny too there's a fan there's like the buzz of famous people around them. We were at a I don't know if you went. There was a reception thing on Sunday night before dinner. No, I couldn't make it. And all of a sudden there's a hub and it's John Turnis a walkthrough and a bunch of influencers because it's all media media and influencers and so all the influencers and creators go over to do a selfie with him. It was basically his perp walk for selfies . Those in my group were like, nope, not nope, not interested at all , but little did we know we would we would get some more chatting time with him. And then there was you took pictures of it. I was talking to Turnis and Jaws and Phil Schiller at that New York event. I was literally talking to Phil. I was just talking to Phil and John Turnis walks up and Greg Jawsweeak walks up and I'm like, what is happen ing here? But Phil is the one that I've gotten emails from in the past because he just we're not just talking about it's not even being Starstroke. It's more like these are the subjects of our careers , but there's a remove there . So when they're actually human beings in front of you, it's a little bit uncanny, I would say because they know us and we know them and that is the truth is I don't know if any granted CEO or whatever like Tim knows in detail who I am, but I will say people below him know exactly every word we write and every word we speak because it's their job too and that filters around and that part is true. So it is this weird thing where I kind of don't want to think about that because it's not my job to care what they are reading of mine , but it is a weird thing when you're then in the same room with them because we're not I write about what I think about what they say and talk about what I think about what they say and what they say is very carefully crafted not to touch on subjects that then you and I will immediate ly talk about . And so there's a real disconnect because our job is not their job. In some ways it's the opposite of their job, but we're also on the same playing field. It's a weird thing. It's weird. Yeah, it's it is and I don't know how well I manage it, but you do have to or at least to do the job that we want to do, you have to kind of disassociate from the fact that well, I know Greg J aws react personally. I know Phil Schiller. I know they read my stuff. And I'm going to write this and I'm going to see them again. But there's definitely not a like this one goes out to Jaws, right? No, no, right. And what we're doing, but you know that it's happen ing now. And I guess it is somewhere on the spectrum of sociopathy, right? Like most humans can't disconnect from it. But when I'm writing and I'm in the flow of writing a column on Daring Fireball. I can totally just disassociate from what the people if it's a negative slant on whatever and I think those people are going to read it. I can just disassociate from it I. think If this is fair and true and what I want to communicate to the readers, I really do feel like that's a classic journalism thing. And you got it exactly right there, which is you're focused on communicating to the people who read your stuff . You're not sending smoke signals to Apple. And what I always say is like they know how the game is played. They know how this works. If my job was just to please them , I don't think they would care a little bit about what I do, right? Like we exist because our job is not there just to please them and to write words that they want to write because they write those words. They do the PR. They don't need more PR and that's our role in the ecosystem is to write what we want and to think about the people who read or listen to our stuff. And I don't have I don't have any close personal relationships with Apple executives, but I know who they are. And I mean, it is hard not to. I got ambushed by everybody else New Y.or Ink , I was just reminiscing with Phil because Phil's been there so long and I've been doing this for so long now that like I remember when Phil came to the Mac World Offices to demo a version of OS ten. Let me tell you, Apple doesn't visit somebody's off ices anymore. You go see them . But they did a road show they did a road show about ten one or something like that because they really wanted people in the installed base to get it. So it was very much like that was just kind of fun because it's like he remembers stuff from the nineties and I remember stuff from the nineties that nobody else doesn't Jaws is a very similar guy who I mean, he was like product marketing manager for the power book back in the in the nineties . So that's how I got to know him. So yeah, it's it's weird because I mean, I guess that's the classic journalist and subject thing and you just don't want to get captured. You got to keep your independence even though you're aware that you're right. It is , I wouldn't say it's like being a sociopath, but you do have to disconnect a little bit because on this spectrum. Yeah, as a normal empathetic human being , you would say, oh, there's that guy I know, Jaws, he's gonna be sad when I write this thing and it's like, but it doesn't matter, right? Like you just that it doesn't matter, you can't do that. Right . Right. So how do I phrase it so he's not mad or he's not hurt or whatever . A lesson I learned the hard way at Mac World it's not personal because we had a writer who got in trouble because they were like it was a really good lesson to learn. I'm sorry that this writer had to learn it and I just had to observe it as one of their editors. But like they made it personal where they're like, Oh, Phil Schiller is doing this thing and all of that. And it's like, but Apple, you don't actually know. Nobody signs their work. It's just from Apple. And if you start to personalize it and say like this person should be fired or this person screwed up and you don't know it for a fact , it's just don't make it personal. Apple is Apple and Apple does things and then you can criticize them. But if you make it too personal, because like even with somebody like Alan and I know you like you made a person with Alan Dye, right? But like you may know, I don't know for a fact that Alan Dye did X, I just know that under his watch they did X . And so I try not to make it too personal because that's when I think it becomes problematic because if you're like, hey, you, person who works at Apple , you suck . It's like, let's talk about the work and whether it's good or bad, but I try to avoid getting personal, especially about people I don't know and I don't know if they're sometimes I have found behind the scenes that it's exactly who you think it is. The other times I found that it's not at all who you thought it was and that the person you thought was responsible was actually fighting the good fight and they lost the fight. So don't blame them. So I've become really reluctant to personify a lot of stuff because you don't know. Unless you do actually literally know what went down and most of the time I certainly don't. And sometimes it happens way after the fact. I just am reluctant to do that. And I just try to follow that. I don't know who's responsible for this, but I can still say that it's bad. Yeah. And the Island Dye example is a good one. I just got an email from a reader so far behind on email, but I happen to stumble across one some reader very kindly said something to the effect of, hey, aren't you making this too personal with Alan Dye with the interface stuff? Like, I don't think you have to do that . And my response was, well, I know some things how it went down and how the culture had developed under his leadership, especially in the last few years , and I stand behind it to the degree that I've made fun of him personally . But to the effect that if I ever ran into him again and he's a very strict you can't miss him because he's six foot five or something like that. And if and I have heard from somebody through the grapefr, somebodyuit who's at Met a or somebody who still knows him somehow that he 's noticed his mentions on Derek Fireball and has been a little confused by them. If I ran into him again, I think we could have a laugh about it. I genuinely do. And I'm not saying all would be forgiven, but I could if I saw him, I'd go I would go up to him and say hey and then he would say hey and you know we would talk it out. Like I could stand behind everything I wrote about it, but I've mentioned to this reader you will note that I haven't done the same thing with John Gian Andrea. I haven't made jokes about the fact that they forced him out or whatever. I think like my problem with Alan Dye is I think his intentions were actually bad and I think his respect for especially the MAC wasn't there and should have been . And I what the stories I've heard about his personal style of leadership within the design company it just seems worth making fair fair game to make fun of whereas John Gian Andrea, I think meant well and just failed at the job. And that's it. So it turns out I know somebody who worked with John Gin Andrea before at a previous job and had no idea about this until like two weeks ago where he was like, Oh yeah, I worked with JG . And I said, Okay, my theory is that they hired JG because they wanted somebody who could help long term building machine learning models because they know that machine learning models are important. They've been focusing on that with Apple Silicon for years and all of that. My theory was he brought a very academic viewpoint, a very kind of like , We're here to do research . And then that moment where the chat bots took off, everybody at Apple was like, Oh no, you need to be a product person now. And he was and my guess, my read on it is that he was probably the wrong person to do that because that's not what he was hired to do and that's not what his skill set was. And my friend, who turns out worked with JG , said that is absolutely the right read on him as a person, which is he's a very kind of academic researchy kind of guy. So that's my at least my read on it is that he was not hired to do the job that suddenly became the job because he was he was about, we're going to build some new models. He was not trying to build a general purpose chatbot, he was trying to build a new image generation model and a new camera editing model and other research they were very much like we're going to do research because remember Apple, before the chat bot revolution was doing a lot of AI stuff, but it was all bespoke training and models to solve specific problems . And that I think that's what he was mostly hired to do. And Apple is not, especially post Steve Jobs return , is not a company that's about pure research as much as they are about shipping the product, right? And I think that that is what happened is they made the mistake of bringing in a guy who is really, really brilliant at doing the research and building a knowledge base , but then they asked him because of what happened with the chat bot thing, then they asked him to kind of like start shipping products and he's the wrong guy. Yeah. And the other thing too , and I again, I am not an AI expert, but I do have a computer science degree and I do keep one of my artificial intelligence textbooks from college underneath my mouse pad because it's the perfect height for my wrist . And man, you know, it's that's better than I forever. Yeah, that's better than I'll sleep. That's way better than sleeping with a book under your pillow. I mean, I've got it right under my hand all day, every day in have for years . But I also I do know enough that John Gian Andrea, his background in AI was on like a different fork of the whole field than LLMs . And that whole side had deep skepticism about how far LLMs could go. John Andrea was on that side and was fully on board and was like, yeah, this is not that big a deal. And honestly, I have to say this at point, they were wrong. Now that doesn't mean that the biggest proponents of LLMs , that the future pursuing LLMs artificial what was it the AGI? What's that stand for? Artificial general intelligence? Yeah, something like that. The actual, you know, in the actual general right or just the super intelligence, like creating an intellect that is actually greater than human intelligence. I remain skeptical of that. I kind of feel like what we're seeing is that LLMs are kind of reaching we can see how the slope of improvement is tailing off and that it'll keep improving, but that the great orders of magnitude leaps are sort of running out . And that other branches of AI might make a comeback. Oh, now all of a sudden there's this huge advance in machine learning or hill climbing or whatever the hell J ohn Andre was a bigger proponent of and that's eventually I think it's pretty obvious that eventually there will be artificial intelligence that is quote unquote super intelligent. I mean it's how could they're not on a long enough timeline ? And that it'll probably be some kind of combination of technologies in the way that human beings, our brains combinations of very different parts of our brain that work in very different ways and evolved at very different epochs in history. We've got parts of our brain that are like a billion years old and then we've got other parts that are like ten thousand years old and something like that. So there might be a being right like hey, I knew there was a limit on this, but moment this decade he was definitely the wrong guy to be in charge of AI. Yeah. I think yeah, I think in the long run , what we got here is that this is the place that's the most fruitful and so everybody's putting their foot to the floor to say we got to do this, but that in the long run, yeah, general purpose there's going to be room for things that are not general purpose that are targeted and thatle App that's the most apple, right? The most apple is to say, we built a model that does this. And isn't it amazing? And that's what they did, but the LLM thing happened and they were flat footed and I think he was the wrong guy. And again , that's I gu andess that's my point is you could be mean about John Gian Andrea , but I suspect that it's not that he is bad at his job . It's that he was hired to do something that suddenly became not what they needed him to do. And maybe that was a misread, maybe that's a miscalculation, maybe it's just the breaks, things changed, and suddenly you gotta react. I will say to get us back to this year that I really got the vibe and that tech talk was a big part of it , that the message Apple's trying to send is we have a new team and we're on it basically. And like Mike Rockwell, especially and if you know so if you accept Mark German's backstory about how Mike Rockwell was just really thought that the best way to do a Vision Pro UI was Siri and he was going to build around Siri for Vision Pro and then the Siri team failed to give him anything useful . I just kept keeping like this is Rockwell's revenge, right? They put him in charge of Siri like, okay, tough guy. You've been belly aching about Siri, fix it. And there's that moment in the Tech Talk where he said, yeah, about a year ago we realized Siri was just not going to do it in any way and we tore it to the ground. And I was like, That is one of the most outrageous statements I have ever heard from an Apple executive in terms of behind the scenes activity of we tore Siri to the ground because it was now and the implication there is very clear. It's because it couldn't be saved. And I think anybody who's observed Apple's struggle with Siri over the last decade probably had come to the conclusion that couldn' itt be saved , but everybody in Simon is like, well, we can't tear it to the ground. And finally, it got so bad that Rockwell was allowed to come in and say, We're going to tear it to the ground. And so they did . And there are times when companies say things like that , like it's a ground up rewrite and you have to kind of like let me see who I can talk to off the record and see just how much. But this is a case where I think everybody's saying the same thing and I think the evidence in our hands is oh yeah, they tore this to the this is a ground up rewrite. This is all new. 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With that code, talk show fifty off, you get fifty percent off and free daily greens per box with a new subscription only while supplies last until september twenty seventh, twenty six. See their website for more details factormeals dot com slash talk show fifty off. Well before we move on, do you just going back to the whole cook being a bit he's not aloof, but he's standoffish . He and he's never really been personally involved with the media in a way that Steve Jobs certainly was. And like I said, I've already got more of a relationship with Turnis than I had with Cook. And it did it occurred to me as you were saying that to Cook shaking his hand on the way out of the theater and I thought, oh, maybe I should have done that too because when am I ever going to see him again? I don't even know . And I thought, you know, and this is it. This was the last Tim Cook event, presumably. I mean, they typically never hold events between WWDC and the iPhone event in September . And Turnis's start date to CEO is september first , which is conspicuously at the beginning of the month they do the events. So the iPhone event presumably will be the first John Turnis CEO hosted event . And so this is it. Like people used to say to me like when the executives came on my live show like hey maybe it's Tim Cook this year. Maybe it's Tim Cook this year, every year for years . And some number of people who were coming or just looking forward to the YouTube version were hoping . And I was always sort of like, I don't know about that. If Apple had said, hey, Tim would like to do the show, I would have said yes. And if they know if anybody trudy, if you're listening, and he would like to do my show on his way out, I accidentally you know my phone number, I would love to , but I always especially for the live show , I would have as nervous and as agitated as I get to do the live show. If Tim Cook had been my guest, it would have been doubled because I just would have been worried about the vibe because I think he's an incredibly tough interview. Jaws and Phil before him are naturals on stage . They really are. It seems like Phil, especially it's just was he ever on like Letterman or something? And the answer is no, but he really has an on stage demeanor like sitting on the couch where it seems like he was a regular on letterman for years. And Jos kind of has that too and Federigi is a distinct personality, but he's good up there, right? And he plays to the audience. He knows how to do that . And I don't think Cook does. Like when I've seen Cook be interviewed , he's impossible to get off talking points. He knows he's he 's well trained. He is the talking points. I think yeah. So here's a theory I have , which is related to this, which is think about Tim Cook's background. Tim Cook went to business school. He was in various tech compan ies. He got recruited by Steve Jobs to come and fix again for those who did not live through it Apple's calamitous supply chain issues . They had so much extra inventory . This idea that they would introduce a new product and they would have thousands of the old product in a warehouse that they would just have to unload. Whereas the goal, which seemed impossible and it turned out to essentially be real is that for everyone that ships, one is sold. And so basically we make them as fast as you buy them and we never have any inventory. That's sort of the goal. It's not quite always that way. Sometimes they preload , they have stuff in the channel, but he was brought in by Steve Jobs to do that. He's an operations guy. He's an efficiency guy. By all accounts, everybody would say, incredibly efficient at that job. And then and then Steve Jobs felt this is the person I can trust to be a steady hand at the wheel after I'm gone because I believe in Tim Cook in that way. And he under and he gets what I get about Apple. And I think that's true. And Steve Jobs was probably thinking, also there's all those other people who are going to be around there to support him like Johnny and Phil and they all get it too and Tim Cook will be a steady hand. And I def y anybody to say that Tim has not been a steady efficient hand at the wheel all of this time and he has grown the company and he's done what he feels he needs to do for Wall Street and all of those things that are kind of the CEO job while also encouraging the people around him to design products that fit Apple's approach because it's not his bag. All that being said , Tim is a lifelong computer industry operations man , whereas let's take John Turnis . John Turnis has been building hardware at Apple for twenty five years, right? Right . And so I don't want to overstate this , but John Turnis is one of us and Tim Cook isn't. Yeah . And I feel like we need to remember that like Tim was spotted by Steve and brought in and brings a level of competence and all of those things to the table , but he professes being a true believer in Apple's mission and understanding what it is . And I think to the degree that Tim Cook can be a true believer he is, but somebody like John Turnis who has been working at Apple since basically the turn of the century and building products at a low level is more is more I just I don't think it's outrageous to say he gets what Apple is about and what Apple customers want and what makes Apple products special at a level that Tim Cook has never and can never, which is not to say that Tim Cook sucks. That's not what I'm saying . I'm saying that Tim Cook was the right guy for that time , but one of the things that excites me about Turnus is that Turn understands Apple at a level that Steve Jobs did and that Tim Cook didn't. And that's why I think we have a better vibe with somebody like John Turnis because John Turnis was in the trenches at Apple, whereas Tim has like been optimizing at Apple at the high level from the beginning. And it's just really different approach and a different perspective. And I think that's one of the reasons that John Turnis like knows our names is because he's been marinating in this stuff for twenty five years . Yeah, and there's just like when you say I'll just go back to when you said he is the talking points. Like he is Tim inhabits the talking points. He creates the talking points. Tim is , I mean, right, he defines them and is them. I'm not going to complain because I think he's been incredibly competent and I think that after Steve not just after Steve died, but in the aftermath where all the people like Johnny Ive who are sort of like kind of done needed to kind of like move on with their lives and they need to figure out what they were going to do and where the iPad was going to go and what how the Mac was going to fit and all of that. And it was awkward. And like Tim was like, this is awkward, but also we're going to make a lot of money and it's going to be fine in the iPhone and all that. Yeah. I can't complain about it , but it is kind of refreshing to see a CEO coming in who I think sees Apple the way we do in a way that I don't think Tim did because Tim , it was not his perspective. It was not his job to see it the way we do because he was coming at it from a very different level . And he's just a there's that old adage measure twice cut once and Tim's more of a measure three or four times and let's make sure that we've got the best where who makes the best rulers in the world? Oh, this company in Japan. Well, let's get those and let's measure with the best rulers in the world four times, and then let's cut with the best saw and that's it . And Steve Jobs shot from the hip, right? I'm going to bring up an old article. This is july two thousand eight. Remember Joe Nicera, he was a business columnist at New York Times . And two thousand eight was sort of in the midst of one of Jobs' downswings . I think it might have been before he got the liver transplant. Here's Jonas I'm going to quote from his column . This is in the New York Times on Thursday afternoon, several hours after I'd gotten my final quote, Steve's health is a private matter , and much to my amazement, Mr. Jobs called me. This is Steve Jobs, he began. You think I'm an arrogant asshole who thinks he's above the law, and I think you're a slime bucket who gets most of his facts wrong. After that rather arresting opening, he went on to say that he would give me some details about his recent health problems, but only if I would agree to keep them off the record. And I wrote, as I linked to it. Now that's how you start a phone call. Christ, I love Steve Jobs. Tim Cook is not going to call up a columnist from anybody. At the New York Times, Six Colors, Daring Fireball, the Wall Street Journal. He's not going to call up and say, You think I'm an asshole, an arrogant asshole who thinks he's above the law and I think you're a slime bucket who gets most of his facts wrong. That isn't gonna happen. Those words are not going to come out of Tim Cook's mouth . And I'm not saying Turnus is going to call me up and call me a slime bucket or that he's going to call you up and say you think I'm an arrogant asshole, but I don't know. I think it's not out of the question that we might hear from Turnus more than we ever heard from Cook, which is zero . I think there might be a little bit of a return to a more back and forth with the media than there was under Tim Cook. And it just and I don't think Cook was wrong. I think he was true to himself and that was his vision for how Apple should be , but that it is a little bit more isolated and just cautious in what I think he thought was a good way. You know, there were like no sloppy mistakes in the whole cook Tim Cook era. There was that whole stock opt ions backdating thing under cook or under jobs around the same time like two thousand eight . And I don't think it was any kind of it was I guess technically illegal, but it wasn't like an attempt to do something devious. It was just like, let's just put the dates on that we , you know, we forgot to do this. Let's just do it like we did it and it'll all work out. And stuff like that just never happened under Tim Cook . There was no stock options backdating scandal under Tim Cook. It just didn't happen. And like when executives left, there was no drama. It wasn't like when Papermaster left after the antegate thing weeks after and it was just an open secret that he took the fall for the Antenna thing and he was out of the company. It's like when John Andrea left , it was a year long goodbye and he got to retire on his own terms in December and golden parachute whole right . I don't know. I feel like there's a chance here that media relations are going to change a bit under Turnus. It's basically where I'm going. You've got a CEO who has different he's totally different in terms of his dynamic and he's going to make some decisions about how he wants to play it, right? But like it's hard to think that the John Turners playbook will be eventually eventually will be the Tim Cook playbook just used for John Turnus. In the short term, that may be true because as a new CEO , you may I don't know if John Turnis is like, I don't like how Tim's interviews were handled. I want you to do it a different way. He may be like , you know how to handle CEO interviews. You just set me up and I'll do it just like Tim did. But in the long run, I think he may have different opinions. And honestly, some of his people may have different opinions . This is a different guy. We can deploy him in a very different way than we deployed Tim because it's a different guy and he's got different skills. Yeah, and he just has a different style about him. He really does. I don't know, I'm looking forward to it. It just felt like it at WWDC and that tech talk me and you and Federico and Mike being right there in the second row, it really felt like, hey, we've got front row seats to like this physical manifestation of the transition. It was no coincidence that Trudy was saving Tim Seat right next to John Turnis. That's that was very deliberate . And it's like this is a moment. This is the transitional WWDC. In hindsight, I guess we'll remember this WWDC for two things. This was when the real Apple Intelligence launched and this was the last cook WWDC , right? That's it in a nutshell. Five, six, seven years from now. That's how we'll look back at last week. Yeah, last cook appearance. Other than probably the end of July, he'll be on the results call for his final farewell, but that's not quite the same as I hope and he'll surely be in those front two rows for keynotes to come as even if he weren't taking the job of executive chairman, he would still be there. John Gian Andrea was at the keynote. I saw somebody had a photo of him up there in the front row of the outdoor area. You know, executives who leave with those golden parachutes tend to keep coming around. I've seen, I didn't see him this time , but within the last handful of years, I've seen Bertron floating about WWC and board members show up there. I remember running into Al Gore at your boyfriend when he was on Apple's board . Yeah, I saw how many maybe the same one and I actually shook his hand and just said, did the same thing you did? I learned it from him. I didn't shake his hand because we were in the men's room at the time. So I refrained. I forget what it was. It was like and it's not like I was famously again , I don't peck away on a keyboard at those events. I write in a notebook. And I was like one of the last press members to leave one of those Yurba Buena things, and everybody else had filed out and Gore was I gu,ess, hanging around the front of the room. It was like we were two of the last people to leave the Yurba Buena Theater . And I was like, holy shit, Salfuckin Gore. And I shook his hand and his hands are enormous. He's a very large man. He's a very, much bigger man than I had filed away . And I just said, Hey, John Gruber, Darrying F, I have no idea if Alcorbreads my site. Maybe I don't know or maybe at least heard of it. He acted like he did. And I just said, Hey, I want to thank you for everything . And that's like all I said. Hopefully said it all, you know , right? What more can you say in a moment like that? Yeah, that's yeah, that's good. I always got the sense that Al Gore was one of those people who was on Apple's board because he thought Apple was cool and he liked Apple stuff . Yeah. I don't know. I was impressed the one time when they showed when he was like the making of one of the things and he hasn't done anything recently. Remember when he had the documentary contribution just as I think it's like the twentieth anniversary of that or something that he's that he went around and was talking about it. But it's been a while since you're back. Apple doesn't hold. I was thinking about this the other day. Apple doesn't hold events in Europe, Buena anymore , right? That's I was actually thinking how that is an amazing example of how much bigger Apple is than it used to be. That they just went up to San Francisco to this little theater and said we're going to release like major new products and that stuff does not happen anymore just forget it, forget it. They're it then when you grow by whatever an order of magnitude that stuff, doesn't happen anymore. So yeah, I mean, one way or the other, Tim Coke will be around at those events, but I think the odds that he's ever going to sit down for like a sit down interview on upgrade is that time has passed, you know . Yeah, I think he's done his duty . Yeah , and what I keep thinking is the guy seems like such a type A workaholic kind of guy. I hope he finds some time to enjoy being more or less retired. Supposedly he bought a mansion in Palm Springs so I was like, I hope he has a pool party. I hope he has hope he has I hope because it's have you have you seen the rumors though that he might buy the Seahawks? That sounds I think that was batted down immediately as not true. Oh yeah. I could see him as a sports owner, but it also seems like a hard thing to get into at age sixty five. But I don't know. He doesn't think he'll give some money to Duke and Auburn and show up at their events and and I think that'll probably be enough for him. This is my guess. But I don't know, who knows? He's got a lot of money, but I just hope it's just on a personal scale as a human being, not even that it's Tim Cook specifically. Somebody who's worked that hard and seems that obsessed with his job to step back like this, I hope he uses that time to do something he loves because should. That's a thing that all human beings should do, especially when they're at retirement age, just enjoy their retirement a little bit. And he's got the money to do it. So I hope he does it. Well, I hope so too, and I hope he doesn't just sit around forever wishing I was he was still CEO being on the board studying the board minutes. I got notes about the board minutes like Tim. Oh 'cause you say that, but then there's guys like Warren Buffett who just retired this year at I think the age of ninety three at Berkshire Hathaway. I heard people speculated he might go on some other corporate boards and that wouldn't surprise me and it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up on like the whatever the board of Auburn or Duke or something like that too. Just how Phil Sheller is on I think he's on the board trustees at BC , I think. I forget which school, but yes, definitely. And I know that Phil and his wife are very big financial donators to a bunch of environmental causes that they're actively involved with, that it's not just here's some money, it's they're doing things like that. And I could see Tim Cook once he's no longer CEO , also in addition to like corporate boards and Duke or Auburn , I could see him getting involved with some environmental organizations. Yeah, sure. So you just sent me a link Boston, Coll ege. Yeah, there's the Schidler Institute at Boston College. That's the Yeah. Dan Morgan ran into him at Logan Airport and he was flying back to Apple having been to a BC Board of Trustees meeting. And so that's when I realized, oh, I didn't even realize he was on the board of trustees there. So yeah, I just , I don't know. I mean, he seems to have given the stuff we read about anyway, it's like his entire life has just been focused on Apple for so long now that just as a human being, I hope I look forward to seeing what he might choose to do, but also I just hope he has a like I'm not kidding when I say I hope he has a nice pool party at his palm springs mansion because like ye,ah , have a good time. You've worked hard for a long time. Maybe I have a good time. Yeah, and I get the impression when I run into Schiller these days. I talked to him, I didn't talk to him at WWE w Iaved hello to him at WWDC, but I ran into him for a few minutes also at the Neo event you're in New York separately from when I photographed you talking to him because I didn't want to barge in. I was like, let me just take some pictures. Jason will enjoy that. So my back weighed like thirty pounds it was killing me. That's the part about that. Why did I put my back down? Was I afraid that Philipp was going to steal my backpack? I don't know. I wasn't clearly. I have no idea. Maybe he's still working eighty hours a week on Apple Stuff. But I get the impression that he's busy, but he's rebalanced how much stuff because before he took the new position had so much on his plate and now it's like he runs events, he runs the app store . I know he's involved with the compliance stuff because or at least as it pertains to the app store, which is a lot of the compliance stuff, but that it leaves more time for non appellant stuff too And I 'd be more relaxed to me. Yeah, totally . And I think that's the way it should be, even if you're still involved with Apple to a significant degree, as the executive chairman of the board surely will be no matter how it plays out, he's going to be involved to some degree. But I think for the last I don't probably the entirety, not just the fifteen years that he had the title CEO, but I think the entirety of Tim Cook's time at Apple , he's been pretty busy . He's had a lot on his plate . I could argue that after those very first years with Steve , like Steve cared about products and that was what he cared about. Steve Jobs he cared about operating a corporation only in the sense that he needed to keep it running with the money that would fuel the engine which was making products . And so his recruitment of Tim Cook , you know, I haven't read a lot about this. I should read more about what's been written about that part of the story, but like I get the feeling that very quickly Tim Cook and I guess I think Fred Anderson was the CFO at that time. Yeah , we say that Tim Cook's been CEO since right before Steve Job s died . On another level, I think very quickly, Steve Jobs left that part of running the company to Tim and probably Fred Anderson because yeah, once he knew that Apple was up and running and was going to have a money pipeline that meant they weren't going to go out of business and they weren't going to be in trouble and they could develop new products. Like it's not like he's sweatin' the details of the supply chain, right? He's just not. So Tim Cook's been doing parts of that job for way before Steve Jobs handed the role to him . I wrote a column once. I forget if it was when Steve Jobs took a medical leave or maybe when it was official and it was permanent. But at some point one of those times, I wrote that if you just wrote what Steve Jobs does, like on a day to day, week to week, yearly basis, annual basis at Apple, what his responsibilities are and where he spend s his time and then you did the same thing for Tim Cook , but you didn't put their names on it. And then you just handed this is what these two senior executives at a computer company do. What do you think their titles are? They would point to Tim Cook and say, oh, he's probably the CEO of the company. And then this guy, I don't know, maybe he's like chief product officer or senior product officer or something like that . I think his job description in plain language sounded like the CEO of the company all along . And it wasn't that there was any sense that I don't think Tim when Tim speaks of Steve Jobs, you could tell he knew who was in charge, right? It is fascinating because there's nobody else Tim Cook speaks of like that, right? But like when he speaks about Steve Jobs, you could tell that he knew he was the number two guy, right? There was no question. You know, like Commander Riker never asserted, you know, maybe there's like one or two episodes where he disagreed with Picard, but it was like a private disagreement. He knew he was number one. There was no doubt who was in charge , but I think with Steve, and this is going to be a question for John Turnis , I firmly believe that the CEO has to be the CEO of the entire company and the buck does stop with them and they need to make the big picture decisions. But also what they choose to focus on is going to be informed by what they know. And so Tim Cook was always the head of he was the CEO . And then when he was the CEO, he also knew and cared about operations and all that. So what will John Turnis care about? John Turnis is going to be more like Steve Jobs just in the sense that he's more closely attached to the product process . And I think it may be that Sabbi Khan and Kevin Parrick, who are the CO and CFO will be more involved more sort of like not even necessarily responsible , like more directly involved with that part of the business where Tim might have had a little more informing him. And I think that's natural. I think every CEO is going to take it a little differently because Steve Jobs was clearly number one . Right . But the products is the part that he cared about. And the rest of it he really did want to delegate to other people. And that's fine. I think every CEO needs to be smart about knowing that they are number one . They do need to make the tough decisions, but also where is your brain power best used? And John Turnis's brain power is not going to be best used in the same place as Tim es or Steve Jobs. Yeah, and I get the sense that everybody knows it. So we'll see. 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And remember that code talk show because that's the code that saves you ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. And if you get the website and pay for a whole year, you could save ten percent on the whole year. So squarespace dot com slash talk show . Well that brings us to the news of WWDC. I had my live show. You were there. Joanna and Neili and I talked about a lot of the stuff . There's some stuff I didn't get to. Thank you, thank you. I thought it went pretty well. I thought it was really interesting how and again I do feel maybe it is sort of the tech Talk was sort of a beginning of a new era. Like I get it, there's one CEO at a time and it was definitely Tim Cook. John Turnis was not in the keynote, right? Which was kind of notable. I would have lost a bet on that. I don't know. Did you and Mike have that on your bingo? Yeah. How did he I think he thought he took that he would be there. He was betting on there being some hardware announcement and it didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I thought too that they would because there's some MACs that are overdue for updates . And I do think that so many years now since twenty twenty of no live events that they see, you know, and there was a live aspect to the Neo event in New York a couple months ago where they had like a little movie that was they played before it and then Turnus came out and spoke to us live on stage for a bit. I think that they're sort of course correcting a bit . I do not think they're going to return to live on stage major keynotes, right? WWDC is not going to be a live on stage keynote event. I don't think the iPhone events are ever going to be live the way they were before twenty twenty . But I think smaller things might be . And I think they I think even Apple sort of misses it in some ways. Yeah , including live demos, right? Rockwell did live demos of Siri AI at the Tech Talk. I thought that was one of the most interesting things to happen in the whole week at WWDC. How do you add value when you've decided that look having a controlled video release and it's always been true WW to the DC or any Apple event, but even just even a developer event that was theoretically open to the public. You had to be a developer and you had to sign up and you had to get a ticket and all of that, it still went to ninety ninet nyine point nine percent of the people who cared were not there. That's just how it was in the last fifteen years of it. So I think having that completely controlled thing up front is the smart thing to do and having all the prerecorded sessions is the smart thing to do. I think that's all great . I think what they have learned or what they're trying is we're doing a live in person event in conjunct ion with the video release . Rather than we got all these people to show up. All right . What can we do when they're there ? And one of the things you could do is have a not streamed , not video , live on the record event with members of the media . Or they also had, I heard some people online grumbling about this . They had some developer sessions in person for the in person developers and people are like, how dare they not we're not there. It's supposed to be a virtual event. And I think they're experimenting with it not being quite a virtual event. The keynote is the keynote, and we all saw it on video. We saw the same keynote , but if you were there and you had the purple card on your badge , you got to go to see an actual live event. And I don't know, I think maybe uncoupling your gut so big and get so much attention that maybe you need to have complete control of it. Keynote thing , uncoupling that from the live give and take is a good idea . Like why not you got us all there? Why not do it? Why make everything recorded? They experimented with that two years ago, right, where they did the thing with Justine. Yeah, I think having it be a presentation with some a small amount of questions sent in from the audience. It was a tiny amount. They overstated how were they going to do that? They didn't want to have too many questions from the audience. It was very much like the earnings calls where it was like a long pre planned thing followed by an FAQ where the frequently asked questions were posed by Craig to Craig and then like two questions from the audience. But still, it's a good use. You've got us there to why not interact with us if you've got us there? This is your opportunity to do more for the people that you cared about enough to bring to Coopertino . Yeah . Yeah. And I think there's something about being there that it's I think being in a lecture hall to hear a lecture live is a better way to learn than watching the same lecture on YouTube . And there was much to explain about the architecture of the new Apple intelligence and a new private cloud compute and the way it's going. And Federici did a great job. It was a really good explanation with the right amount of slides and and a thing that would have been off for the WWEC keynote itself. Yeah. Bad fit for the keynote. I was I think I talked to you about this. I know I talked to a bunch of people about when we're there is you got to think about what the WWDC keynote is. It's not like an iPhone event or any other product event because first off it is for developers. Secondly , especially if they have no new hardware announcements, it's not for people who care about new Apple products. It's not for people who care about the OS because I can tell you and you know this probably, but I definitely know this through Mac World sales figures and traffic numbers over many, many years . It is absolutely one hundred percent true that you can tell the regular people who care about Apple Stuff about an OS in June . And when you tell them about it in September , they'll be like, What? There's a new OS until it's on their phone , they don't care. So it's not for them really either. It's sort of for the industry as well, but like what is the, keynote even for? It's complicated, especially if you aren't doing a product launch. It's complicated. It's for the press and the industry and the developers and kind of a customer base, but not really But whatever it is and it is weird , it's not what's in the state of the Union and it's not Craig Federigi putting up a chart with like a flow chart of how AI sequences happen , right? It's that no don't do it. And so yeah, it was like a they call it a tech talk. I was thinking, it's like a chalk talk. It's like a coach putting up like John Madden at a chalkboard being like, boom, it goes over here and it does this thing. That's basically what Federigi did. And I think that's I agree with you. I think that's a great venue for it because a keynote keynote is not the place to do that. Whatever the keynote is and it is weird and it has many audiences and also no audience in kind of in some ways . It's not the place for that. So I'm really glad they did it. I wish they would do, I mean the last couple years, it used to be like you'd go and then you'd leave or you'd go and you'd have one thing. The last couple of years , for a lot of us press who go there, it's like a two day extravaganza where you are being taken from one place to another for a briefing or an experience or a demo or a Q and A session . And it's a full on, it feels very like W WDC used to. It is packed in a way as an in person event for press any way . Yeah, absolutely. And my schedule was packed including my Tuesday . And I was like, this better be good because I've got the show at the end of the day. Like I don't want to be wasting my time , but it was it was all the sessions were worthwhile. They were good demos. Yeah . It was it very busy, but I do and I remember passing at one point Tuesday morning , the crowd of invited lucky lottery winner developers, not press coming down from Steve Jobs theater after the Apple intelligence session they had in person there. And that was awesome. I think I wish I could have gone. I was busy with press briefings and I wasn't an attendee, but A is love that more people got to see Steve Jobs Theater, right? People, it is a thing to see. It is it's sort of an architectural marvel . It is like, ooh, this is this is something . It is striking . And it's cool that people who, you know, but it's also cool that they had something to do the next day and it was in person . And it was again with live demos of Apple intelligence and technical explanations of what's available to third party developers and why they should be excited about it and the sort of thing Apple has not done in years, really since pre COVID. And I think it's great. I would love to see them do more of it . And I really do think it is just sort of both ways. I think those of us on the outside, either whether we're press or developers who are attending, and we were like, yeah, this is great. I think inside Apple, the people I've talked to, they were like, yeah, this is great. We really have been wanting to do this. And we were thinking, hey, why don't we do more of this? I was talking to somebody after my show, somebody who works at Apple, who had something to do with the Tuesday morning thing that the developers went to at Steve Jobs Theater. And he was like, yeah, it went really well . And then afterwards, we were like, why don't we do this more often? Like I 'm not saying that they've already decided to, but they were like, yeah, that felt great. There's like a connection to the developers there. It's ineffable what it's like when there's five hundred, six hundred people in front of you and you're getting these, you're in the same room, but they were like, yeah, this is great. We haven't had this in a while . And we miss it. And it's good . It's good for everybody. Yeah. Doing doing the videos as videos instead of as live events. I get why they do it. I know you and Ben Thompson talk about this a lot on Dithering . I get why they do it because it gives them complete control. You do miss something , but there may be other ways to get that thing . And like COVID made them slam the door and now they're rediscovering what could we do to get back some of the stuff that was lost , even if they're very happy with the idea of the pre recorded keynote, which I think they are . Yeah, it doesn't just have to be that and that's what they're kind of messing around with WWC as a as a thing. And like iPhone day, if you get to go to the iPhone event, like there's a lot of stuff going on on the iPhone event day too, but like WW C is a good fit for developer stuff and also for press to kind of like check in about where they're doing it. So yeah, I hope they keep exploring it because we did lose a lot and although some of it I can understand tactically why they might not want to do it anymore, I like the idea that they're realizing they did lose some stuff that they could get back and that Tech Talk was exam aple good in those brie fings were a good example and we're you know, we could all do Web X briefings and stuff. We did during COVID, but like if you're going to get us out there , talk to us. That's your opportunity to explain yourself to the people who communicating about what you're doing . Yeah it's I don't know. It's one of my big takeaways is that this was and also I know Nila and Joanne and I talked about it on stage, but I'll just say it again . The keynote itself was lower key. And I'm not saying it'll always be that way, but there was no high production bit, no , nothing like the Phil Schillers flying an airplane and all the senior executives are parachuting out into there was no somebody's driving a race car or anything like that. And maybe it's the simple explanation and again, nobody at Apple who knows is going to explain it, at least not now while it's fresh. Maybe it's just that all of this was so we don't know what we can announce in sort of much more last minute than most years. I don't know. Like maybe there was a hm, is are we going to pull all this together to announce in June? And I don't know, but there was something about it that was much more low key . And the other thing I do know there's no secret. If you really want to ask somebody at Apple, hey, how come you guys stop making the mini after the thirteen the iPhone thirteen mini? And it's like they'll they'll give you a look. They're not going to say it, but it's is it because it didn't sell that well and they're going to give you a look that's duh, right ? They're not going to say it even off of the record, but it's like what do you think they add? If it was selling like hot cakes , why would we stop making it? And if we stop making it, what do you think that means? And it's like, why do you think they don't talk about the they do put them on YouTube and YouTube, they don't have an exemption from YouTube's download or views or whatever they call the number. And I just looked at the keynotes at eight point one million . But they also host their own version of it. If you just go to Apple TV and look and they have the keynote or if you go to Apple. com and a web browser when the keynote is on. They're not playing the YouTube version, they're playing their own version. And who knows which is more popular, but there's certainly millions more views that are their own. They know the numbers. And it's like, are these pre recorded keynotes more popular than the ones that were on stage and put to tape? And they'll just give you a look like duh, like they don't talk about the numbers, but they are way more popular. And that's basically it. As a marketing exercise, the prerecorded keynotes that are at a cinematic pace of editing are just more conducive to watching. And it's the same way like people liked it when they put Hamilton on Disney plus like a video of the live production of Hamilton . But that is not as popular as a feature film, right? Like film movies are together at a different pace than a stage production. And a stage production works for the people who are in the audience and a movie works for people who are watching a video. And you can enjoy a live production that is put to tape , but it doesn't hit the same way. And there's millions of people who watch these prerecorded infomercial style videos to borrow Neiil's term and there are thousands of people who can watch them live. And which one do you think they're going to optimize for? And I think what you end up with and where Apple may be evolving to is the idea that like, look , doing infomercial, doing a commercial video thing is the right thing to do because of all those reasons . Right . And it doesn't it doesn't have to be either or live event or a commercial because we had the live event . And part of it was the infomercial , but also there was a lot for members of the press, there was a lot more , and there was value in that and there's value for Apple in it, and there's value for us in that. So yeah, I feel like they're just kind of letting the video be what it is and what it needs to be and how it evolves . And then also saying that doesn't have to be our whole strategy when we're talking to the media or when we're talking to developers, we can do some other stuff too. And I think that that is great. My favorite word that Nei and Joanna said on your stage Joanna said that it was boring and there's a moment where you're like, oh here, here it comes. And she basically said in a good way . And I was struck by that word because what it said to me is it says everything how companies always have an incentive to do big tent pole features every year because that's the stuff that's exciting. And that initial fifteen minute block where they talked about making everything on all the devices you use faster, more efficient less buggy , fixing all these annoyances that you've had for a decade . Somebody was like, I'm surprised that that didn't go on longer. It was actually kind of dull as it was because I keep saying to people, it's like sand running through your fingers. It's like a lot of little are hard to get your hands around . And this is the dichotomy is we need as users updates that fix the broken stuff and make everything faster . But the reason we don't get that as often as we should is it's boring, right? I mean it is boring . It's good for you and you should do it, but there is no denying that it's boring and that's why we have to have tent pole features. The good news is fixing Siri and Apple intelligence is such a big A plus tent pole feature that it allowed them to say beyond this just make everything work better and like , great . But calling it boring , she's not wrong , but I think it's really interesting because it goes to human nature, right? It's like we want to be entertained by these events , but sometimes not being entertained and having them fix the stuff that's broken is better for us, but it's not as entertaining. Yeah, and I feel like it's one of those be careful what you measure type things. Like if you're measuring excitement, you're like, hey, we need more exciting features. And excitement in general is good from a marketing perspective . But I think that it leads to a cycle where Apple lost track of okay there are some unexciting things that will resonate and create affection and yeah, this is why I love owning an iPhone feelings from regular users that aren't exciting at all. And it's like, oh yeah, people do love bug fixes and low latency and stuff like that. And it's why people so fondly remember it's like a legendary term in Apple's world snow leopard, right? And it wasn't as John Syracuse has gone on at length on ATP . It was not a no new features release. There was all sorts of major new features. I think that's when the sixty four bit stuff went in. I know Grand Central Dispatch was introduced like an entirely new features in the bug s update. Including, you know, with Grand Central Dispatch an entirely new way of doing multitasking and multi threading in the OS like really low level stuff. Yeah, I've forgotten. I got Mackerel to repost my review of it which also is buying advice because it's back when you snow leopard you had to buy it. Like what? But yeah, that's their trick. That's always their trick is they say, Oh, no new features and it's totally new features. There's hundreds. I remember they put up a slide at some point that was like it's actually hundreds of new features, but they're all little, and a lot of them are like and that was what the fifteen minute block at the beginning of the keynote was, right? It's like all you could do is give examples. So they're like for example, you walk out your front door and your iPhone just doesn't connect to anything for a while because it can't bear to let go of youri W eveniF though your i WiF is not talking to it anymore and until you leave your house and drive halfway down the block and the cellular connection finally picks cuts in that you can I can't tell you how many times I've stopped the stop sign at the end of my street in order to get my maps directions to work every cup everybody do it. Everybody when you talk about this feature, everybody knows this feature because almost, you know , almost everyone so leave a pow pleaser. It's just little. You know that dumb thing? And I applaud them for doing it because it does require Apple to have a little bit of humility because I do have to say this is a thing that didn't work as well as it should have. And then say, but we fixed it. And it's I could be mad that it's gone on this long, but I think I'm just gonna be grateful that maybe it's fixed. You know, again, what took you so long? One of the answers is, well, we were busy working on all those tent pole features that were super dramatic in the keynote instead of fixing this thing you deal with every time you leave your house.. Yeah So good. Let's do it. I had a briefing. I don't know maybe you might have been in it. It was like a sort of briefing specifically about the performance updates and little tweaks which mine was awkward because it's like, what do you want to talk about? And it's like, there's so many things, but they're all little. It's like what ? We talked about the WiFi released one. I talked about that too. Yeah, we talked about that. I asked you specifically, what are you doing there? And the answer was, I mean, it's very funny because the answer was well, quite frankly, we were just looking at signal attenuation . And now we look at latency , bandwidth across the link, signal attenuation. We look at a bunch of stuff and we do it way faster . Yeah . And I know you can do multi homing. It's like, yeah, you should be looking at the WiFi and saying, I can't get any data on the WiFi and immediately just pulling that data off of cellular. And I did make them laugh because I said it's like my iPhone is mourning for its wifi for a little while and I wanted to get over it faster and they thought that was kind of a funny way to put it, but it's like it's tell me show me the lie right,?s It like' every time you leave your house your iPhone is like, oh, remember the Wi Fi it was really good. And it's like, stop . You have a phone, you have a cellular modem, use it. Yeah, I get the gist that when they were like, okay, let's actually tackle this problem and they're like, this is not like rocket science. It's like we can just do a couple of simple things that are not even that intensive, but if we like yeah send like a ping and test the latency that's trivial. That can happen in one ten thousandth of a second and use almost battery life or energy and it's just like, oh yeah, we'll just send a signal and see if we get anything. Oh, we're not getting anything back, then let's try switching antennas. And maybe I don't even know, I don't know, they didn't mention this one specifically, but maybe they can tie the accelerometer in too and be like, yeah, the iPhone's been in motion. The user is clearly moving, whether they're in a car or walking out the door . So let's just check if they're connected. Okay, they are connected. We have a great connection to the Wi Fi stay and the WiFi. Or no, look at the ping time. This is terrible. Let's let's switch. They mentioned in that briefing. They mentioned the word snow leopard to me, to my group. I forget who is in my group, but and then they also said IOS twelve and that I don't recall IOS twelve being that type of relief release and maybe it's one of those things where because IOS releases don't get names . They don't have them . I don't like, oh yeah, that was the one where blank. But at least inside Apple, that's how they saw IOS twelve as a sort of hey , let's stop with the exciting new features or slow down on exciting new features and let's just turn around and improve some existing ones . And the way that they presented it was like, oh yeah, I guess it does kind of make sense though that these things just ebb and flow through multiyear cycles , right? The whole organization gets on board with something. And obviously last year's was liquid glass, right? Hey, we're gonna do a new UI paint job in front of all the platforms. We're going to do it all in one year. We're not going to do iPhone first and other platforms the next year or two years later for some of them. We're going to do it all at once, everybody get on board. We're going to touch every piece of soft ware and how it looks . And that's the big thing. And this year's obviously AI, but it's obviously with a bunch of and I think it is related to Siri AI, right? Like obviously like the hey, let's tear spotlight down and do an entirely new version of Spotlight is both beneficial just for searching through your email messages and it's clearly a, key aspect , it doesn't matter how good the actual Gemini derived LLM is, if the search index is bad, it's not going to be able to find the personal context , right? Just not going to happen. And so it's like win win. And you can say, well, why didn't they do this years ago? But it's like, I don't know. It's like all of a sudden the whole company is on board with this is the year we're going to fix things. And next year it'll be something else. But AI stuff gives them cover to do this and I think that's great. Make no mistake . I think they should do this stuff every year, right? I think I think a little more speed and bug fixes should always be higher on their agenda than it is. I think they've gotten that out of balance most years that they could do more . But all I'm saying is I understand why all tech companies are predisposed to do big things and not worry so much about fixing the old things because the big things are what people notice . And when I just had a briefing for BBD, the new version of BB came out and I talked to Rich Siegel about it. And I know you have you beta test it like I do and all of that. And like the new version is version sixteen. It doesn't really have any tent pole features. It's got like a thousand things that are a little bit better. And the challenge is then I need to write a story about it. And what do I say? Hey, baby edit got a little bit better . And so I get it. I get why they do it. One of the ways you get publicity is that people have a feature to glom onto. I don't think that think that 's human nature. I think it's our mistake. We don't want to take our medicine . I do wish Apple had a little more cultural focus on keeping the bug fixes and improvements party rolling every year a little more than they tend to do. If we have to stop every five years and do this okay, but I'd really rather do a fifth of it every year. I just don't know culturally if you know, you've' heveard heard stories. I stories of people are like, I'm aware that bug exists and I cannot get permission to fix it. Yeah . And I know and this debate always goes on, right? Is Apple software quality in decline, right? And there are some people who have who would every single year for the last twenty years would have said this year over last year, Apple's software quality is in decline. And they would have voted the same way for twenty straight years. But if that were true , Apple's software quality in twenty twenty six twenty years later would be unusable, right? It's not, it's so complex their, software portfolio is so broad that there are and you can look at specific things and all of us have our pet peeves gripes . But I do think in broad strokes and I think this goes back to one of the last years that I did my live show in San Francisco . And I think I think Federici was on stage. I think he might have only been on st age in San Francisco once . And we were I brought it up with I think it was Phil and Federigi. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was Phil and Federigi. And they were adamant that their software quality is up not down because they measure it. And what I took away from that, and that's good, right? But it is like how many crash reports were they getting in their database and I do think Apple's apps crash less often than they did ten to fifteen years ago. You just it's very seldom that I see crashes anymore. I really don't. And they measured it and they fixed those things and I think switching from objective C to Swift has fixed other classes of bugs, memory management bugs. And those are good , but if you think that's the only measure of software quality, like, hey, our app doesn't crash Apple Notes doesn't crash. It only crashes a hundredth of one percent as much as it used to. It's like that's a ninety nine percent reduction in the number of crashes. I don't know, I'm making that number up. You could say that's fantastic, but that doesn't mean there aren't bugs in Apple Notes that don't cause crashes. And how do you measure those? Or just irritations , right? . Al alsoso, I feel like and people at Apple agree or disagree, but from the outside it feels like there is a culture at Apple that and sometimes I think this is also about their hiring process because famously like Apple , Apple's bad at hiring people. It takes forever . And some of that is a legacy of like oh we only want a players here, but I think also they have a I think personal opinion just as I think Apple's hiring processes at least as I have come to know them over the last few years talking to people seem really old and hidebound and slow. And I think that it may lead to one of the things that I'm about to describe, which is I get the feeling like they decide to do a big feature . The circus comes to town . They build the feature. They launch it, they leave town and the feature sits there. And the problem is there's bugs, things are broken and in year two, you're like, you're going to fix all the things you that were broken and the thing you shipped last year, right ? And in the last decade, I would say a lot of times what happens is they just don't. And if you're lucky they'll fix it year three or year four , some people will come back and kind of like give it a polish . But that's the thing that troubles me most about sort of Apple software quality in general is the feeling like they don't have the people to own the thing that they launch. They build the thing that they launch and then those people go off and do something else and nobody is maintaining and improving the thing that's there. And like whether it's time machine , things that are often really system critical that are like super quirky and then they will do a brush up and you'll be like, yeah, but there's still this bug and then it's good luck, wait three more years . Or I think the one that we're all thinking of this year is Screen Time , which they have a big revamp and they're doing all these things. And I heard again, I heard you and Ben talking about it on Dithering, like on one level, it's great, but on another level, if you've talked to anybody who's tried to use screen time , it's broken . And so what they're really doing here is trying to fix it and we'll see how they do which ties parental controls , which there's an overlap where some of the parental controls are about screen time. It's basically yeah, the screen time was launched in a digital wellbeing era and now people are more concerned about kids using technology. But it's all kind of of a piece. And I think ScreenTime's a great example because ScreenTime launched with a lot of fanfare and it had problems and the you know, new features with problems is not a crime. It happens. The crime is they never fix the problems . And that's the part that I would like to see Apple get better at is just if you're gonna launch something , you got to maintain it. And sometimes I feel like Apple is willing to spend the money and time and effort to launch something , but then they're not really willing to do anything other than walk away. And I think that's irresponsible. If you can't stand by that feature , you shouldn't launch it. Yeah. And if you're not willing to put a team together to instead of making it a circus to use your analogy that has tents and then the tents it's a big fanfare and you go and but it's not built to last. You should be building permanent amusement parks and theaters that are great news great new feature. Who owns this now forever? Right? Forever who team owns this and cares about it the most if anything . That's because we've all had that issue where sometimes you even hear from somebody at Apple and you get the distinct senses like, oh , that's the guy who does this. There's a person who is on this and it's not their whole job. I don't know. Feels like there should be people on this thing that's super important and is a core of all of Apple's operating systems. And sometimes you get the sense that that code is just there and nobody really knows about it. And it's just it's very disturbing when you get that sense that things are kind of abandoned inside of Apple's operating systems. All right, let me take one more break here and thank our third and final sponsor and it's our good friend at Finalist Finalist. They sponsored my live show and I say they, but it's really just one developer Slavin Rotich . And is back sponsoring this week's show the week after WWCD finalist is I love this app. I really do. I said it on stage that I still use it after he first sponsored Daring Fireball in December . It is sort of a paper day planner in a digital for m and it's iPhone, iPad, Mac, the MacApp has been making I liked it from the start. I wouldn't have really been able to use it the way I've been using it if it didn't have a good Mac app months ago, but it's really improved lately . And it's I keep saying over and over again, the reason it works for me is that you have days and days have tasks , not a list of tasks and the tasks have dates assigned to them. This works for my brain in a fundamental way that a lot of other to do list and management type apps don't. And if you've ever thought, none of these apps really fit with the way I work . And if you kind of have the mentality that fits with a paper planner , you should really check out Finalist. It's just a great app. And it's really the pace of development is just amazing, especially for a one well, I say especially for a one person team, but maybe it's because it's a one person team and in a way that a really, really productive developer can move faster than a team ever could. It's just a great app. So you can go to finalist . Works . That's the URL. Finalist. Works slash talk show and by going there you get six months free off the subscription. That's an unbelievable deal. So just it's a special deal just for talk show listeners. Go to finalist dot works slash talk show get. You six months free, try it. It is the type of app. You're either going to be like, yes, this is for me and it and again , you're not locked into like the finalist system. It's such a great ecosystem app where the calendar events come from the system level calendar. I don't even use Apple Calendar. I use Fantastical. That's still my calendar app, but then those events from Fantastical because they're in the system database, they show up in Final List. Reminders, you set a Siri to set a reminder in a reminders app, guess what? If it has a date, it shows up on that date in Finalist. It's such a great app. Go check it out finalist dot works slash talk show . Okay, let's take a break before we go back to WWC. Before I forget, I don't want I don't want to run out of time on this. There's one thing I wanted to say to you and Mike in WWDC and I forgot to. I ran out of time . And it's are you too out of your freaking minds? Oh , what do you mean, John? What do you mean? We might I heard and when I heard first the idea you and Mike Hurley, your co host of upgrade are launching a new podcast. It's currently and this is coincident with your appearance here because we still think you have two weeks left on the kitchen. Yeah, we're going to the end of June. All right , so we've got plenty of time. Designed in California, an Apple history podcast. And I thought, oh, that's great. It's the apples, you know, and here, blah, blah, blah. Two of us, Mike Hurley and Jason Snow have been discussing Apple in depth. This is from the description on Kickstarter. It's a and I'm like, yeah, an Apple History podcast with Mike and Jason and that would be great. And then I read that is going to consist of fifty episodes dropping over twelve months . I mean, it's just weekly . So I can tell yeah so it's But it's not like you're stopping what you're already doing. Well, I mean I stopped a podcast that I was doing that was not doing too well and I so I knocked that off and there may be some other stuff that I stopped. But I did, look, we did kickstarter because we knew this would be a lot of work and we didn't want to do it. We couldn't do it the way that you usually do, which is you launch a podcast and see if anybody shows up because it's so much work that if we're going to commit to that level of work, we need to know there's an audience for it. And the Kickstarter has been really successful . It's still up. Love support. If you want to get the ad free feed with a whole bunch of bonus features, you can do it at designed.fm . There will be a regular free feed with ads and stuff as well , but there's some good deals and there's some merch, there's some art and other stuff there too that you can get. It's a kickstarter, right? But it literally is what Kickstarter was meant to do, which is validate this idea and allow it to happen in the world. It's not like some of these like pre cooked products where they put it on Kickstarter as a marketing bloy. Like literally , we didn't know whether we were going to it was going to make sense for us to make the effort. And the initial goal was only for thirty . And then there was a stretch goal , which was for fifty episodes or a weekly. They're like half an hour ish to forty five minutes ish. We record them in a block . So, you know, it's more manageable than you might think. We're not doing it every week. We're kind of like producing a mon th's worth at once in a cycle and we get time because it's not timely like all these shows that we do. It's scripted and it's about the past and we can take our time on it and do that. But it's still going to be a lot of work, which is why we calculated it out of like the minimum amount possible to do it. I've already stopped working on some stuff because I'm going to do this instead, which is great. I'm very excited about the project. That was part of the deal. We did an episode about the fif tieth anniversary of Apple that was very much like how did those guys meet and what did they do? And that was kind of our proof of concept and we really enjoyed it. It was inspired by the rest is history, which is a great podcast about all of history , not fifty years of Apple history, but it's Mike and I, both of us love that podcast and we thought is there a way to do there are so many sources about Apple? There's so many books about Apple and so many stories that you could tell if you zero in on a particular topic. And also doing this for as long as you and I have, you've come to realize there are a lot of people out there who are in our audience who actually don't know those stories because they predate their interest in Apple . And so we thought that there was something there. The truth is, I was working on a version of this last year . It was going to be a follow up to that twenty Max or twenty twenty series I did, my pandemic project, but I hadn't quite figured it out And then I got sidetracked by two things, which is I got sidetracked by having a month's warning to be on jeopardy. So I had to do a lot of studying . And sidetracked by the Wall Street Journal asked me to review David Poke's six hundred and fifty page book about Apple History. And when I finished doing those two things , it was almost the fiftieth anniversary of Apple and I was like, okay, Mike, why don't I write a script like the script I was writing last year? But instead of it being about whatever that script was about, let's make it about the founding of Apple. And then Mike was like, I think this is great. We should do it. I think we should do it as a kickstarter. You and me. I'm be going wr toiting the episodes, but Mike's gonna be doing a lot of the production and the marketing and all sorts of other stuff too. It's good division of labor between us. And we'll figure out where it goes. I mean the thing about it is the rest of history guys can't bring on somebody who knew Napoleon, right? Right. But we could bring on people who were there or around there to talk about it. And so that's part of the things we have to figure out is like I got an email about one of the we're doing previews in the upgrade feed this mon th. And I got an email from somebody who said there's a detail in one of our stories that may not be right. It's in the book this way , but our friend Harry McCracken interviewed one of the people who was involved and he said that book got it wrong. I wasn't there . Other people were there but not me and it's like fascinating because it's like it's not in the it is in the book but the, book isn't maybe right. So yeah, I'm digging through all the old books and oral histories, and I imagine that at some point we're going to do an episode or a series about the transition from classic MacOS to Mac OS ten and I guess this will serve as an announcement that we're doing this is like we're going to John Serracus on those . Like who lived through it ? I did, but John certainly did and cared about it a lot. So some of them will have guests and some of them won't. We'll figure out the dynamic as we go. I mean, really, it's part of this is going to figure out what is this show ultimately going to be like , but I what gave me confidence that we could do this is we came up with a list. We came up John,, it's at least like two or three years of material. And that was just our first wish list, right? There are so many stories to tell from the prehistory to the present day. And like Pog's book, I'll grant you the last ten or fifteen years are a much tougher nut to crack because not only is everybody who's listening probably live through those, right? But those people work at Apple and they're not talking yet. But even like at this point, like even to the start of the iPhone and there are so many great stories to tell. I want to do a series about Microsoft and Apple being for enemies, right And how that has changed over time . And sometimes they're enemies and sometimes they're not. And I want to kind of like dig into it and I think there's, but this will afford us the ability to really dig into it. So as an example, I was thinking the other day this was a shower thought or maybe it was a driving thought because I just drove back from my son's gradu ation in Oregon and so that's like an eight hour drive. I had a lot of time to think about stuff. And one of the thoughts I had is if we're going to do the Microsoft and Apple Frenomey story, I probably need to do an entire episode about Microsoft Like about Bill Gates and Paul Allen and how they came to even exist . That's the latitude of a show like this gets us is the ability to take the time to say like , have you ever really heard the story about Microsoft? Because all of these stories, we know like the sketch version of it, but like I had no idea that Steve Jobs and Steve Wasniak took an Apple two prototy pe with them on a red eye to Philadelphia in the summer of nineteen seventy six to go to a trade show in Atlantic City and that their arch rivals were sitting right behind them looking over their shoulders and laughing at this bare computer board that was in a cigar box , which, as it turns out, was the Apple two, and it would destroy that company. Those people all were destroyed. We've never heard of nobody's ever heard of that company, but we all heard of Apple. And it was Atlantic City in nineteen seventy six, which is before the casinos went in. So it was a dump . Like, I'd never heard that story. And that's when I have fun doing the research on this. It's like we all know kind of like the sketch version of all this history , but the details are so interesting and they're not what you expect . So it's been fun and we're we're doing it now, but if more people want to support us, what I'm excited about too is that there are so many podcasts like this one where we talk about current events and you can't listen to them all . But this one will be different. So I'm hoping that people who listen to the talk show and ATP and other places like that. And people who don't even listen to news shows about Apple might be into it because they're fun stories. And if you care anything about the tech industry or Silicon Valley or Apple, hopefully you will get fun stories out of it like I get out of the rest is history where they're telling stories about parts of history I know nothing about , maybe would never have even cared about , but to listen to a couple of people who've done the research or have read the read the primary sources and then put it together in an entertaining story . Like that I love that stuff. So I'm hoping we can do the same thing. Yeah, and it's the rest is history is one of those shows. I think you're one of them that when I was going on and on about having admitting that I'm very late to have stumbled upon the acquired podcast which has been going on for years and is a huge success and is one of the most popular podcasts there is let alone in tech and I've just fell in love with it with these and the acquired show is like each episode is like a three to four hour deep dive on one specific company's entire history . In addition to just loving the episodes I've listened to, I'm absolutely in love with the use of the podcast , the audio podcast, I wish I didn't have to say that audio podcast form to tell the story and that I found I found the nature of the acquired format to be so revel atory and apparently the rest is history is similar. It's the same type of format. There's another show people mentioned is similar, but it's perfect for this and I'm not I've never ever been an a udiobook listener. I know they're super popular and I know people who listen, you know, you know, if they're driving back and forth from California to Oregon frequently, you need something to listen to. Because I read faster than I can listen and that's how I just doesn't work for my brain. But I do listen to lots of current events or at least I think I listen to Apple News and political current event like stuff happening this week podcast The idea but there is a middle ground of using the podcast in the convers ational form for something that is historical , but transcript wouldn't make necessarily a good book, right? I love acquired , but I don't think a transcript of acquired is something that I would enjoy reading. It is the conversation I enjoy listening to. It is very of the format like the it is it is and that's what I'm hearing that this podcast is. And your twenty for twenty max thing was like that too. Yeah , this is so it's a little bit different that was more like edited collage of interviews and stuff and this is more just sort of me telling stories and Mike asking me questions about it and us going back and forth about it. But that's the beauty of the format. It's why we love the rest is history. You're not just telling the story, although you are telling the story , but you've also got somebody else who knows the subject matter who is asking you like Mike will ask me questions in the sample episodes we did that I'm like I hadn't really thought of it that way right, it?' Ands like well let,,'s talk about that. And so you end up doing some analysis. One of the things that I came to in doing this , the thing that we're doing an upgrade as bonus episodes and will be the first four episodes of the show when it airs probably September ish is the Apple two . There's so many details that I didn't realize about it, including my favorite anecdote is that Steve Wasnik's dad decided to make Steve Jobs cry so they didn't give the company back to Steve Wasnik . It didn't work by the way. But I mean it worked. He cried. He cried. Steve Jobs was a crier, but when Steve Jobs was like, look, if you want the whole thing , you can take it, but I'm adding value here . Like Jerry Wasnik, who I did not know that he ambushed Steve Jobs and made him cry. But the moment and Mike having a give and take with Mike is really good because we talk ed about Steve Jobs' obsession with finished product . And the Apple I was just a circuit board, but the Apple two was a finished product with a plastic shell painted beige and he cared about the details of it. It had a bunch of parts that were not the result of Steve Wasnik's genius. They were other people's genius, like the power supply, which is by a totally different. This random socialist biker dude named H Broladt designed that and that was a revolutionary power supply . And Mike and I are talking about this. And I realized based on what we were talking about that this is the moment where Steve Jobs shows Steve W astnik's dad why it's a fifty fifty partnership . It's because it's the first moment that Steve Jobs is Steve Jobs, recognizably Steve Jobs. You can see his traits before , but that product is the result of Steve Jobs thinking about the end product for a consumer market and saying we need not just the technical brilliance of Steve Wasniak , but we also need the power supply which he got from Rod Holt. They needed the case design and every other case looked like it belonged in a lab and it was made out of metal. And he's like, No, we're going to make it out of plastic. I want it to look like a cuisinart, which is such a leap to like think of it as a consumer product. But that was Jobs. And I came to the realization at the end I was like, oh, this is the appearance of a familiar Steve Jobs for the first time. And he spent the rest of his career trying to do the same thing again and again in a way, which was take this very technical thing and try to apply as much consumer sensibility to it as possible so that it could be used by regular people. The Apple two couldn't really be used by regular people, but like more than the Apple one. Right. At least they can get those turn on. Yeah. Right. It had a keyboard attached to it. It was in a case. You didn't have to supply your own wood box for it. Anyway, it was stuff like that where it's good having theort rapp with Mike too because he gets the apple stuff. I've come with my research notes and all of that. And then we have a back and forth about it. It's a lot of fun. I mean, it's been, I mean, you just heard me. It's really fun to rediscover this stuff that I or discover stuff I didn't even knew before. And let me tell you , there are a lot of great books about Apple out there . They all cover different aspects. Most of them are out of print. I've got them all. I went on a used book buying binge . And that's been fun because a lot of this stuff is not widely available. And David Poke's book is great, and I recommend it. It's huge and it's authoritative and it,'s great. The Steve Jobs biography is not great by Walter Isaacsen, but it has a lot of details in it that are interesting. And you could read the audiobook version. And that's very entertaining. And David does a bunch of stuff in his audiobook version that is very divid. He's an enterprise at Heart . But this is a different format. And what I think we have going for us is we're going to focus on in on some specific stories and do it in this way and I'm trying to pull from all of the relevant backgrounds. So it's the books and where I can find them, the magazines , some of which I wrote, but you know, they're in there. And Oral History is at the computer history museum and all sort s of other stuff to try and tell a fun story about the history of this company that I would argue is and you might agree with me is one of if not the most influential company in the last fifty years. Yeah, I agree. I think it has to be, especially and I don't think that was I thought so all along , but I think it's almost undeniable. Even people who don't like their products have to agree at this point. And the other gift, I talked about this when Pogue was on my show for his book a couple weeks ago. What a remarkable I mean, fifty is a real close about as close to an even number within a human lifespan that you can get to, right? Nobody who is there for the origin is going to be around for the hundredth anniversary unless some kind of futurama brains and jars technology comes about , so who knows. But combined though with the fact that so much of the origin was from twenty year olds, like in Espinosa's case, fourteen year olds . That fifty years on so many of them are still around that they're only in their seventies and are there to tell the story. And yeah, the last ten to fifteen and Pogue talked about it too that the last ten or fifteen years as comprehensive. It just can't be. There's no possible way . But it's also even if Apple were a more open company and was more willing to talk about five year old stuff. Like yeah, we're still going to be secretive about what's coming and what's current . But yeah, five years ago, sure. We'll tell you the real origin story of the ten years ago , right? Like how did the how did the iPhone ten come about? What did we what's the inside story on getting rid of the home button and going to round corners and the new swipe up ? We'll tell that story now. And even if they were like that, I don't think that's history needs time to settle before you know . Right. And I do think I remember as I listened to the entirety of the twenty for twenty podcast . Of course some recent Max made the list. You know, I put them, I forget how we how you did it. I think I got the vote. I don't know. There was a no I just chose . You chose all right . I'm mixing it up with my report card , but of course there were recent ones, but I think the episodes for the older ones were better because they were more we know that that's the SE thirty is an all time great mac. We could think the M one MacBook Air was an all time great Mac and it probably is, but it's like it's so soon you don't know, right? Like and you just is it the M one or is it the M two or is it the yeah, it's too soon. It's too soon to know. Yeah, it's like I don't know. It needs time. I agree and then you can see if you can project back from ten or twenty years in the future looking back at that event, now you can see that, I mean, not to use a cliche, but that arc of history. You can see, oh, I see, I see. Now we know where they're going, right? Like a thing that Mike brought up repeatedly when we were talking about these early days of Apple Apple is not special in nineteen seventy six , nineteen seventy five. They're they're not, I mean seventy six, seventy seven, especially, they are not special . And Mike made the point he's like, there are dozens of these companies, aren't there that are literally just two kids selling tech stuff in the garage and companies that got some funding and had some salespeople in suits and the only reason we're talking about Apple is that it made it . But it was not unique. There were the people at Processor Technologies thought that the Saul was going to be a huge hit and that processor technologies was on its way . And I never heard of that company or its computer ever . At least you've heard of like Commodore , but processor technology, they just died and I think that is really interesting, right? It's like this is a story that matters because of what happened over fifty years , not because of what happened in that moment, it's important , but it's only important because we can look back at it now and trace the line and say that was important. And that only time can give you that. Yeah. And the sweet spot for it is when time has given you that , but the people creating the work, documenting it lived through it and can kind of put that first person angle on it and the people who made it are still around to talk to, right? And I'm not saying that people who write about seventeenth century geopolitics are wasting their time , you know, or that new history isn't being useful history isn't being forged of the founding of America two hundred and fifty years ago. That's true. But it's it's past the sweet spot, right? It would be better . And anybody who's doing that work today something that far in the past has to rely on the history work that was done twenty thirty years after the fact . Right? So there might be again, on the hundredth year anniversary of Apple, there might be some really good history work being done, whether Apple is still around then or not , but it's going to be relying on things that written today or recorded today as the case may be . So right, well talking to Jeffrey Cain, who did the Steve Jobs and Exile book, which is really good . He spent a lot of time in the Apple Archive at Stanford and he spent all looking at papers and a lot of time at theut Ceromp History Museum, I think, we're working with their historians. So like that is one of the benefits of this is that right now is a good time in some ways because a lot of the people who are involved in this, they may not be around or they may not be around much longer, but a lot of people have had that realization that we need to talk to them. So the oral history stuff is very impressive. But also, yes , the fact is at David Pog's book event at the Computer History Museum , John Scully was just there John Scully was just there. The guy who designed the original Apple logo and was the third partner in the partnership for about two weeks. Ron Wayne, who's in his nineties, was there a coup it is yeah this would be it's I'm not planning I'm not, planning on writing a book and doing a lot of original research for this. But I anticipate what's going to happen is I am going to hear from people who know what happened. And that's great. Bring it on. That sounds like a lot of fun. There's a place for books and then there's a place for stories. And yeah, yeah. And I think that's stories. And that's at a certain level, that's fundamentally what human beings evolved to pick up Right. And that's why we want to hop around, right? There are so many stories to tell and like different kinds of stories, like the Microsoft thing is totally different. Like that's not about a particular event in history. It's about tracking a relationship between these two interesting companies over time. I haven't written that one yet, but it's up here. I know what I want to do with that to a certain degree. And the way we're planning on architecting this is like, we'll do that. That'll be four episodes. And then we'll leave it. And then we'll do something else in a different era . And so hopefully we can keep good stories flowing as a part of this. I still say fifty episodes in twelve months is you're out of your freaky minds , but I'm really looking forward to it. We could do it. Well, okay, yeah, yeah. But we record all we record four at once. I know I know. Then come back a month later. We just well, we'll see. We'll see. We fortunately we have reached the point in the kickstarter where every dollar that we get is just going to allow us to do like I realized that because we blew past our number, but we would still love everybody's support because it does help the show be better. I'm going to get people to read my scripts in advance and compare them to the sources and make sure I didn't make dumb mistakes. That's probably not something I could have done at forty thousand dollars because we would be at the bare bones of what we could do. So like all this stuff just gets better because people have shown almost two thousand people have said, yes, I want this to exist in the world, which is awesome . But it does allow us to make the show actually better in ways that if it was super bare bones we couldn't have done. Every kickstarter I link to I do it because I think it is going to hit for a significant a notable chunk of the daring fireball audience . And then there are kickstarters where I'm like, well , who isn't going to contribute to this one? And that's what design in California is for me. I've guessed there are people listening to you, pitch it here and me talk about how much I'm looking forward to it who are like, yeah, maybe I listen to the free version. But I don't know who you are . Like if you're listening to this and you haven't already contributed, go to design. FM and do what I suspect you're probably doing with your thumbs right now on your phone and contributing because if this isn't right up the alley of the audience that I think that I have , then I don't understand my audience at all. And the plug I'll get for the people who are backing who are going to be members essentially I'll also say is when I say we're going to record four episodes at one time , the free feed will get those one a week . The members will just get them all at once. And this is what the rest is history does and it's the best because like the first week of the World Cup, all of a sudden , six episodes, six hour long episodes appeared in my feed that are about national anthems , which is such a great idea. National Anthems and the history behind them of six countries that are in the World Cup. Right. Great episodes. Amazing. We listen. That's what we listen to on the drive to and from Oregon. I'll tell you l isisten we to all six of them , but that's a great benefit, right? Because the last thing you want to do is hit the cliffhanger and be like, well, what happens next? And so the members are just going to get the whole story at once. And the free feed will get part one and then wait a week for part two and then wait a week for part three. So it's a plus bonus episodes and a bunch of other stuff too. We're really hoping to do it right. But you know what the fact is if you don't want to back it, you will get that .'s still It a podcast. It'll still be a free feed. It will be out there. But anybody, yeah, if you want to make it happen, if you're excited about it, I think it's going to be a fun ride. Yeah. All right. Well, anything else you wanted to talk about from WWDC. I have one more thing on my list. Let's do it. All right, the one more thing for me is did you see that they've I think for iPhones, it's the same list for IOS twenty seven as twenty six, but for iPads they cut some devices off and notably mine , my twenty eighteen eleven inch iPad Pro. And I know why because IOS twenty six has absolutely sucked on it . And I it's one of those things where it's like I don't want to complain because well it is a twenty eighteen iPad . I can't complain that I'm due for a new one . But if I if it were easy to go back to iPad OS eighteen, if it was just like go through system settings and hit reset and then you could pick it, I would. I don't even know if you can, I don't know if there's some kind of complicated D FU reset. I don't know. I don't think there is because I don't think they sign iPad OS eighteen anymore. So I don't think even in a wiped state you can reinstall it. But it's the whole time it's been bad. And because I don't really care too much about my iPad, I installed the beta last summer and thought, well, this is probably unbelievably slow and freezes up at times it breaks the number one rule of IOS which, is that scrolling doesn't work. Like the whole screen just looks like a screenshot and it's like I have to wait and wait and wait and then I can maybe scroll again . I don't know it should have been cut off a year earlier. This iPad never should have gotten IOS twenty six. And even with and I thought as I left the keynote, well maybe with the optimizations and the new CPU scheduler and stuff, maybe it'll actually bring my old iPad back to usable life and no they just were like, no, you don't get it. No, cut it, cut it right off . Eight years is a pretty good run. Oh, yeah, I can't complain. It more's like wishful thinking. Anything else that stuck out to you? It's not surprising, but one of the things Joanna said to you on your live show is it feels she in the nerdiest comment I've ever heard Joannaistern make, honestly, she said it feels like a third a DP three developer prefew one feels like developer prefew three which it's I guess if you spent your entire development cycle trying to be find efficiency stamp out bugs that you wouldn't have that many bugs in your beta, right? Like on one level, isn't that the whole point is that this is the this is the debug more efficient release and therefore why would it be riddled with bugs right now ? So like I think that's interesting and yeah, all signs point to that it's in pretty good shape. I'm reluctant to put it everywhere right now, but I did put it on my iPad. I had to restart it this morning. It got it got super jittery and janky and stuff, but and it's still indexing on that device. So that's going to take forever. I will give everybody the advice that was given to me and you probably got it too, which is update if you're if you're planning on later on this summer or even in the fall going to twenty seven , get on the twenty six betas , because my understanding is that if you're on twenty six , all that spotlight indexing happens in the background secretly on twenty six teen charge twenty seven . Yeah, while it's charging, you can't access it. It's just building a new spotlight index, but it means that the moment you update twenty seven, it just picks up the index and it doesn't have to sit there for three days indexing your phone Mind indexed for six days. I installed the beta after the keynote on Monday on a spare iPhone and it's finished Sunday. So six days during those six days, you're like, oh, I see why they're pre indexing in twenty six . But I have to say it was very usable while it was still indexing. So I could see why they're pre I mean, I guess that's the thing I'll talk about last year on this show is I've been it's so good and so stable for a it's maybe the most stable WWDC beta of IOS I've ever seen. Yeah, I mean it's not necessarily the highest bar but it is not I DP one is usually pretty scary I mean they've just they've shipped a build that they figure will not destroy everybody but like is not always their best and I think it's often the case that that first developer build for WW C, there's some at least two or three major tenfold features that really were just like yes, we're going to get this together by September , but ooh boy, we're going to give this to millions of people in June. Ooh , okay, maybe we'll comment, comment, comment all this out and turn off this, turn off that. And the serious stuff, I mean, and 're look often stuff that has never been together, right? There's like a build of us that has this new thing and other people are testing a version that has that new thing. And you put it together and it goes Kablu and it goes kaboo . None of that . I feel like we've been so focused on AI and Apple's failing from two years ago that I feel like we haven't given enough attention to the fact that they seem to have actually fixed Siri. I know it's there. Yes. I know it's there, but like perspective, it's been like a decade where we've been saying Syria isn't good enough . And then Mike Rockwell came in and was like, I'm going to burn it to the ground. I filled in for somebody who is absent. I don't know why on MacBreak Weekly this week . I don't know why. Some bullshit was in the car. Yeah, my friend's sons graduated from college or something. Yeah. But I said Leo asked me about you spending a week with Siri AI on IS twentyO seven on an iPhone and I said honest to God Leo, the hardest thing is to remember to use it. The whole reason I switched my sim to this phone at WWDC to start using it as my daily main phone was to try to test Siri AI and that's the whole reason I'm using beta one and I keep forgetting because I've so ingrained oh don't try Siri for that. Don't try Siri. I know. Like why would you use Siri for that? And I know. And every once in a while, I'll catch myself doing something searching the web or search, you know, going to check GPT and I'm like, oh, I should try that in Siri first. And that probably won't work. And every single time so far it's worked. It's amazing . Yeah. In a personal context, it's kind of hitting miss still, which I totally expect. But I've had those things just like Joanna said last week. I've had those moments where I've I've asked. So like I do a it was originally a pandemic project and we just do it now in the summer for fun podcast with Phil Michaels and David Laure where we watch old episodes of Magnum PI randomly. It's fun. It's great. I loved that show when I was a kid. And we plan it, we record those two at a time and we plan it in an I message thread where we will at the end of the recording, we'll say, okay, here are the next two episodes we're doing. And every time I sit down where I'm like, Oh yeah, we're recording that tomorrow I need to watch I got to take my medicine, I got to watch Magnet PI solve some crimes in Hawaii in nineteen eighty five , I have to scroll through my message history to find what we said. And I did that thing where I said, what are the next two episodes of Magnum PI that we're doing on the podcast? And within thirty seconds or whatever , Siri AI came back and said it's this episode and this episode because it was able to formulate a spotlight search on that that turned up the message that was most recent because there are plenty of messages that list episodes, but it was the most recent ones. And I was like, okay , that is useful because what's better than me searching messages is me not searching messages and you just telling me the answer . And I feel like that's the platonic ideal of Siri AI on device search in a way is just like I know it's there . I might not know whether it's an email or in mess age thread or something else, but like just I know it's there. Can you search for it and telling it to do whatever search it needs to formulate to get where it needs to go? And so I'm really optimistic about it. We'll see's. ear Itly days yet, right? But like it's real far so good. Yeah . And one of the examples, I cited it. If you listened on MacBreak Weekly, I talked about it, but my barber works in a building. He moved from one place and he opened his own place in a building where it's like a shared it's like a whole floor where stylists and nail salons and stuff can rent like a very small place, but you need a door code to get in the building . And I was on my way and I just said to Siri, what did Tola tell me his doorcode is? That's his name, Tola. And it took fifteen seconds, maybe I don't know. It's a little longer than I wish, but not too long. And then it said the door code is one, two, three, four and showed me the text message where he had sent it to me weeks ago. It's a week's old text message. It was exactly just ask the phone. What did he tell me? Because I don't want to remember it. And what you guys could do is just I know he knew he texted it, but I didn't say what did he text me? What did he tell me the door code is? And my only complaint about the answer that verbally because I did this as I was walking down the city street to go is I had my AirPods in and the verbal answer from Siri pronounced the door code one thousand two hundred and thirty four , which is sort of it's correct, but I was like, oh, but that's not right because that's not how people talk about doorcodes. The voices are kind of broken. Mine felt like somebody from like not Canada or but something like that where it's like a country that speaks North American English . Do you have it on a phone a last year phone that has the new voices? I got the Yeah . Yeah. And it referred it, I think it mispronounced podcast . It said like podcast and I'm like, what are you doing voice? That's just a normal word, but it was like, well, this person obviously comes from some weird part of North America that has no it's just like it's kind of busted right now. There's a bunch of I saw somebody else say that is like the code is one hundred eighty thousand three hundred and twenty four and it's like nope, that's not it. You got to got to work on that one. Yeah, but boy, that seems like a fixable problem. This is what I don look't, know if you got the shortcuts experience that I did, but I've had a few moments and I think this is a sign that this is a good release and that Apple's moving in the right direction. I've had a few moments in the last week where I've thought this is actually fulfilling stuff that we wanted our devices to do, but it's never been able to be quite as good. And it's things like what if I ask you for information and you figure out where it might be and search for it and what the search terms might be and look at what the results are and then come back with what you think the answer is. And with shortcuts it,'s like all those dreams all the way back to hypertalk in Hypercard and Apple Script and everything else that's been. Shortcuts is literally every weekday morning at five AM send me a list of all of my to do's and events for the day . You type that and hit Return and it builds a shortcut that does it. Yeah , that is it. And that is the dream, right? Even if you talk to Sal Sagoon, he will tell you the Mr. AppleScript. He will tell you that ultimately the dream is that a user could just tell its device their device what it wants from it. Mr. Automation is a better way to put it, right? You're right, Mr. Automation. Right? Because automator too. His goal was always better automation broader than any specific tool, you know? Absolutely. And so he would be the first person and he's around. I'm sure he would. If I talk to him today, he would tell me this, which is this is the dream, right? Is why don't you just tell your computer what to do and it says got it . then And you can say do that every day at five AM and it says got it. And that's it. And that shortcuts thing. I mean, it's limited. You can't make it too complicated. It doesn't use third party apps yet. Like, I get it. It's got a lot of limitations. I was about to ask you, you just read my mind. I often leave WWC with a long list of shit, I should have asked this question, that question. I only had like three questions this year on the plane ride home where I'm like, ooh, I should have asked that. And one was , can it use third party app actions and answers not yet, okay, not yet. Not yet. And they haven't said, and that's one of my questions for them is is this one of those things where we might see that in a future beta? Or is that one of those things where we're not talking about it, which means it's not going to ship with that. Clearly, it's a direction that they would go is it should know what apps you've got installed and be able to use that too . For that, it's it's kind of like a core part of Siri AI, this idea to have app knowledge , but it's not there yet. It's trained. Federico, of course, took the model apart and knows that there's a database and it's of all the actions of all the Apple built apps in the system . And that's it. But like still, it does fulfill that I have, a very simple automation that I was comfortable building in shortcuts, which is when my phone connects to my shower speaker because I listen to podcast in the shower. It puts me in do not disturb. So does my wife it puts me in do not disturbed because I have been in the shower and had people text me and it's so because I want to see the text now and I'm in the shower. I don't. So it's like, I don't even want to know. I don't even want to know that somebody is trying to reach me when I'm in the shower. I'm listening to my podcast. I'll get out . But I could build that. Well, you know what ? In twenty seven, you can just say when I connect to my shower speaker , put me in dude disturb and you hit Return and it says, Which one of these Buletooth devices is your shower speaker? And you pick it, and it says done . And that's it. It's automation is turned on because they added that feature. All the automation is attached to the shortcut now instead of being in a separate place. And like, I don't know, I think it's really exciting because that's the kind of stuff that people have been talking about for like forty years. Could you use natural language to control your device where it's intelligent enough to do the programming for you? And like, that shortcuts is on that path. Every semi savvy user knows how to it's a human being. Even it's a remarkable aspect of being a human being, just looking at us as machines that even human beings who are on the wrong side of the fifty yard line IQ wise, everybody learns how to talk and they learn how to understand language, right? And you could just take a person with low IQ as a baby and just put them in the world and they just listen and they learn they learn how to talk and to understand language . We know that that is maybe the fundamental thing. That's why I said too, that stories are the reason the way of learning things that we either best learn and most enjoy learning. It's like what we evolved to be . And so we can communicate what we want these devices to do in language. We can say I would like to be able to just play a podcast and go into do not disturb and and it'll do it. Yeah , I don't need to know that there's a trigger block . I don't need to know that there's, you know, an if then statement. I don't need to know any of that. I just like do this thing. And because the circuits thing is iterative , you can do the vibe coding thing where you say do this thing and then you can add do this thing every day and it'll be like great and it rebuilds it and now it does it every day and like I mean seriously , that is a dream . This is the closest I've seen to the fulfillment of that dream in forty years . Yeah, and it might be maybe it would have come out this way either way, but it's great that shortcut s has already existed for as long as it has. And as frustrating as I and many others who are used to typing a programming language find the block based nature of shortcuts to be just like just the nested if thens and stuff like that. It's just so finicky and so hard . And this what's great about it is the new default view of a shortcut in IOS twenty seven and MacOS twenty seven is you just open the shortcut and it's a shortcut that with a play button and you just play it and because I think the assumption is most of them are going to be made by just talking to Siri AI and having it made, but then there's a tab at the top where you can just see the traditional view . So you don't have to ever look at it, but if you have never really done it or you've just kind of clicked around and you're like , I know that there are so many people building things that they know they would never have made otherwise, right? Like our friend Adam Lissagore, friend of the show and the guy at Sandwich video, he's made, I've linked to it, the hovercraft. He was on the show the show recently talking about it. He'd be the first to admit that he isn't a Mac developer and now he's made this Mac app that does a kind of complex thing . But before you get to using AI to vibecode a thing that you know you couldn't have made without AI the first step of oh I could make that on my own. I know I could make that on my own , but I probably am not going to carve out the time to do it . But if I just tell the thing and because you know you could build it, you know it's possible, right? You know that you could build a shortcut that turns on, do not disturb when you go into the shower when you're playing a p odcast It comes to your mind to build that habit in the same way that I have to build a habit now of remembering, oh, use Siri for that. Use Siri. Try Siri, try it. Just try it because I don't have an expectation that Siri can do it. But the whole list of things I know shortcut can do, but that I've never taken the time to build a shortcut to do because it seems like it would be a pain in the ass and I wouldn't want to do it. Now I'm going to make them . And if I want to make a small tweak, maybe I won't do it iteratively through the vibe coding. I will open it up and look at the steps and say, oh right here it's not code but, it's close. It's what passes for code. Yeah, also , there's levels, right? Like, I don't mean, I'm sure somebody out there heard me just rave about typing a thing into shortcuts using Apple's technologies only. And I was like, come on, Jason, like you can build whole apps. Like I built a Mac app the other week. Yeah. And it's yeah, you did . But most people don't. Most people don't want to. Most people, this is why I believe that developers have a future. It's like being a developer requires like a vision and detail and all these things that most people do not want to do , right? Simple tasks and shortcuts, I totally think even then it's only going to be like ten percent of the people are going to want to do even that. Almost nobody is going to want to do all the work required to get an app when there's a person who's used their brain for weeks or months or years to come up with an app that solves problems that's listened to the customer needs and has built a good app. And just because you can vibe code something and you can make something good , most people don't want to do that level of work. So there is a future for people who care , but I also do think it's amazing that we are seeing I wrote a piece about this like how many longtime Mac users are building Mac apps now because they can, and they're the ones who care. They really care about making their Mac experience better. And like, that's great that the code is no longer the limitation for them, but be clear, that is a it's a fraction of a fraction of the user base. And the shortcuts thing alone, like, what I like about it is it's so simple that maybe in the long run you're just telling Siri, hey, could you do this thing? And it says, sure. And then you say, could you do that every day? And it goes, yeah, I just made a shortcut and turned it on and it's done now. And like that's the, that's how low the bar should go. Yeah . And I also think I know that one of the things and I thought who knows? I don't know what Apple's going to do at WWDC, especially with developer tools where they can keep it secret is are they going to have the whole X code vibe coding thing for making whole apps. And the answer is no, they didn't really. I mean, there's they did. There's features, AI features and people , but people are already developers are already doing it, right? You did it. Adam did it. You can use cursor, you can use Codex. You can use other people's things to drive X code to make Mac apps. I use code in an empty Xcode project. And the problem is I had to ask Claude where to click and as a longtime Mac user, Excode is so not a good normal Mac app that Claude would say like, hey, you need to click on this thing in Excode and do this thing for me. And I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. You need to tell me exactly what to do . And I felt like such a dummy, but it's like, I am really good at reading Mac user interfaces and I have no idea what you're talking about. And it's because like it's in a pane in a tab that has opens another window that has another set of tabs under it and you're like, what are we even doing here? And that's why I think Apple should make an effort to make it easier to create Mac apps or iOS apps using vibe coding tools. And that means making some of the junk that's around it's hard to get that far in Xcode. I do think they should make that easier for people like me who have the interest, but like I just I hit a wall with EXCOT and I asked Claude to handhold me through it and it did , but like I think a quick win to make Apple's development platform that much better for people who have ideas because in the end it's a small group and some people have really good ideas for a thing that they want to exist in the world and nobody else makes it. And like, you can do it. You could just make it be in the world now. That's exciting. I still think that's probably coming. I wouldn't be surprised if there's not something. I keep saying if Xcode is logic pro , it needs a garage band. What's the garage band for absolute? What if it's just a front end on Xcode? Right. So what's the eye movie to final cut Pro Yeah for apps but I think switch playground but Swift playground isn't there Playground doesn't have to be the answer but it's it's not the answer it's not what garage band is, right and P Ieople just linked to some young artist who made a hit a super hit song in garageband on an iPad when she was in high school, like when she was supposed to be in class. And it's like, you can use garage band to make a real song. You can't really use Swift Pglrounday to make a real app. There's no really amazing like, oh, it's like hovercraft, right from Adam. And then you find out he made it in Swift Playground. That no, that didn't happen . That there should be, but that could be still coming. But I still feel like the shortcuts thing that they did announce and is here to use today in the betas is actually a better first step because it's more people are going to use it because more people have a shortcut scope thing. I wish I have this one weird thing that I would like. I would like a five AM daily email sent to me with this, this, this, and this from these four sources, and there's no one app that connects to those four sources. You could use shortcuts to build that and have it run at five AM every day. And then you're like the first day you get one on Saturday, you're like, Oh, I forgot, I don't want it every day. And then you just say to it, I meant only every weekday and then it'll just be like, okay, only every weekday and then it'll change it. That is that is a better first step. Do step one first and then maybe next year we get garage apps or whatever. But this is a better first step and to me the first time short cuts is like, oh , this is now a good system. I've sort of been very mixed feelings about shortcuts all the way up until last week and now I'm like, oh, this is the way shortcut s should be. And this justifies the finickiness of the block based nature of the actual shortcut. It's like, I don't mind it now if I can just talk to the damn thing and have it do these things. That's fair. Also, I have to say one of my favorite things that happens at WWDC is when there are longstanding grievances with Apple features and then a new Apple feature requires them to be better , which in this case, like yes if else has not been in existence in shortcuts, which is like a fun it's so frustrating and I have to imagine plus the attaching of automations to specific shortcuts. Yeah. And I mean we all know, what happened, right? Is that the people who are doing the vibe coding interface for shortcuts are like, what do you mean there's no FLL? Yeah , like, all right, we're on it. We'll do it. We'll build it for you. What do you mean you have to go to a separate tab to attach no, no, okay, we'll fix it. We'll fix it. Apple is Apple's best customer sometimes. And then people who care about shortcuts, they get those features too. Horizon. Yeah. And I think the one that nobody was surprised by, including the team building Siri AI , is they weren't surprised by the fact that Apple Mail can't really search Apple Mail . Yeah. And they're like, well, well, this time we really needed to be able to search. Yeah, spotlight in general, right? Clearly, spotlight wasn't good enough Siri AI . And so after years where we've all been like, the spotlight index isn't very good. And it doesn't surface mail properly in mail because it's using spotlight. Like finally, Apple rolls in with Siri and AI they're like, this is all predicated on spotlight working. Yeah. And I'll give you a spotlight then. I'll give you another example too because this is one of those ways that computer interfaces in general, it's a very slow transition , but it was effectively if you really think about it very radical , which is in the classic era, go back to classic Mac and go back even to the early days of Mac OS ten , search interfaces feature rich. And it's I'm not just talking about BBD where you had regular expression searching all the way back in nineteen ninety two but any app that had search would have a pretty complex list, you know, word processors, everything that had search almost every time if the app gained any success had a pretty powerful set of search tools . And over time, that got reduced to no, there's just an oval in the corner of the window and you type and you don't even and yeah, there are like in Apple Mail, you can type from colon , Jason , and then you hit return, but there's no pop up for that. And that's frustrating. I only want to search the from. I don't want anything that mentions somebody named Jason, just emails from because I don't remember the guy's last name. I just know he was named Jason and he emailed me . You can do that, but now you have to know something that's even nerdier than if they had a little pop up menu there for that . And for me, Apple notes is I have let me count two thousand six hundred and eighty Apple Notes . It has been since Vesper went to the Great Beyond of Apps at Demise, this is where I put my notes. And yes, I'll bet most of my two thousand six hundred and eighty notes are no longer relevant, but I don't feel like going I'm not going to go through and delete them . But all Apple Notes has for search is an oval up in the corner where you start typing and it doesn't really limit it to like the title of the note or whatever. I know I made an Apple note telling me how to change propane tank on the grill or whatever thing you do once a year is . I know I have an Apple note, but god damn it if you use the new Siri A I and you just say how did I do this? It'll search through your notes and it's such a better interface for search because you can just say it in a sentence what note you're looking for and you don't have to magically know a string of multiple words you put in the note. It surfaces the right note in a big pile of notes in a way that the notes app itself really can't . This is the this is the best thing maybe about LLMs is this idea that if I tell you what I am trying to look for , if I if I type that in a traditional search box , it doesn't find anything, right? Because it's oh, oh, you were searching for this word, but conceptually that's right, but it was a different word . But if you talk to an LLM and you say, can you find this thing in context , it's better at that. It's just better at that because it's not a doing a harsh hard text string search. It's doing a holistic kind of like semantic search. And that sounds kind of high fallutin, but it's more like don't make me search for the word I'm looking for the red wagon. And they're like, well, you didn't use the word wagon. You use trailer. And it's okay. You know what I mean, right? But a string search , classic old computer string search will not find that, but a semantic search using an LLM will. So yeah, I guess that's the answer. At what point do our search boxes and apps just be places where you type what you are looking for and it is reformatted into a property query by a search engine. I don't know. Yeah, that's that's kind of where I'm going is the next step here after they get the like maybe a next year thing is to sort of turn those search boxes in all these apps into a you know, if that's the way you want to go and you don't want to give me an interface to with a couple of pop ups for things like the from or the subject or the title or whatever so that I can do a more complex search than just typing words in an oval . Make it make it a Siri AI interface and have if I'm typing in the search field in Apple Notes , it can already prompt Siri to be like, well just search Apple Notes, right? I don't have to type search this notes database for blank blank blank about my grill on the deck. It's it can already you know, if you're typing in notes, it kind of knows that. I don't know. It's way better already. I can't remember feeling one week after WWDC like I kind of have to, I guess I'm going to wait for Beta two just to have a couple more bugs shake out, but I've got to put this on my main phone More to the point. This is your opportunity to leap right over Tahoe. That's I'm going to. Yeah. And I guess that's the last thing. I mean, I know we're going long hair, so I won't go in . But basically my take on the interface in MacOS twenty seven, Golden Gate. I remember the name. I love it. I don't love everything about it, but the thing I love is that every single change is for the better. And in fact, I would say that about I was twenty seven two . And I was talking to friend of the show, Cable Sasser from Panic , I can't find a single interface change they made' sveince last year on any of these platforms that I think is for the worse. There are some that I think like , I don't really care, but for the most part, every single interface change that's different is for the better. And MacOS nowhere is that more true. I saw Jaws after the keynote and he laughed and he said his favorite moment from the keynote was when they mentioned the corner radiuses being the same and that everybody laughed and che ered. And he said, That's how I knew that this was still a real WW C audience. Nowhere else would people laugh and cheer for corner radiuses being fixed. And I was like, yeah, that was a great moment. They got rid of the stupid icons in the menu bar. I mean, they just got rid of them . And the ones that are left are actually sensible. It's like they're only ones that are left by default are ones where it actually does improve the legibility and scannability of the menus . They just said, you know what? Effectively, by getting rid of it, they're like, yeah, that was a mistake. So yeah, I look forward to upgrading to MacOST . In addition to the fact that I've entirely I'm going to, no doubt, entirely skip Tahoe . Except now I'm wondering is it better to upgrade to Tahoe and then upgrade to twenty seven because the upgrade from twenty six to twenty seven it might be better tested I'd like to be able to say I just skipped right to it. Yeah. But honestly, I think I'm going to go from skipping an entire year's Mac OS on my main work map to a developer beta? To a developer beta . I honestly got because I don't see how I'm going to wait. I really don't know. It's so many good things. I'm very excited. Yeah. Even the icons look better, the app and I feel like it's not a huge difference , but it's like the decline in the artistic value of application icons coming from Apple and their direction for the platform bottomed out last year and now the curve it g'sone back up. It's not to get personal, but I'll say it's as if there was a real change in philosophy in the degree. Yes , yes, as if right, not to make it personal. Who knows And so just off the record somebody from the design team I ran into after my show and I was like, What's the mood? And they're like, The mood is great inside the software design team at Apple. They're just everybody everybody there feels good feels good about what they showed last week and feels good about the direction they're going. And I have to say it feels that way on the outside too. So yeah , Tahoe, screw you . It's gone . Jason , thank you for doing the show. Good to see you last week. Good to have you on right here. First and foremost, I will remind people designed. FM that'll take you to the kickstarter. If you're listening to this episod e in June, go there, sign up if you haven't already. Six colors come, and as I always like to note, you can spell colors whichever way you feel is natural. It's true. I pay for both of those domains and redirect. It's true. Yeah. I have the laugh. Andy and Adco on MacBreak Weekly yesterday, I forget what the context was, but I was like, oh, that's gonna be the episode title. He said the phrase intimately intimate functional ities . And we all started laughing, and then Leo had a bit about it. And then two minutes later, Andy was like, well, I registered the domain . Yeah , yeah. Registering to remains is a hazard of the job honestly. So no intimate functionalities there, but you can go to sixcolors dot com dot You can even go to six colo. RS if you want to because I give money I tie it to the Republic of Serbia annually for that domain. That's a new one. Six . RS. I don't know what I was even thinking. It look . Yeah, it does look good. You don't want to say it. Right. Yeah, no, it's not. It was during the brief time when link shorteners looked like they were going to be a thing and so I got that as a good link shortening domain and then it suddenly didn't matter anymore. So it just redirects too, but it's fine. It's all good . Upgrade, of course, is your regular podcast with Mike Curly and anything else you want to you want to mention? No, that's I'm very grateful that I got to talk about the new podcast here and hopefully people will enjoy it. After the thing is we announced it and then there's WWDC and then I'm going for my son's graduation and all of that. And it's like, only now am I at the point where I'm like, I can actually start working on this new project. Because we announced it. I mean, you got to announce it when people are paying attention, which is WWC is a good time to do it. But I look forward to actually proceeding with the work of doing the podcast now. I do too. I look forward to listening to it