Future Paradigms and Closing Thoughts

Hi everyone, I'm Kai Dickens, and I'm thrilled to welcome you to the Talk Tracks. In this series, we'll dive deeper into the revelations, challenges, and unexpected truths from the telepathy tapes. The goal is to explore all the threads that weave together our understanding of reality. Science, spirituality, and yes, even unexplained things like psybilities. If you haven't yet listened to the telepathy tapes, I encourage you to start there. It lays the foundation for everything we'll be exploring in this journey. We'll feature conversations with groundbreaking researchers, thinkers, non-speakers, and experiencers who illuminate the extraordinary connections that may defy explanation today, but won't for long. Your home is more than just furniture. It's an extension of who you are. Even small details, like a rug, can completely change how a space feels. And that's why I love ruggable. I recently added one of their Persian rugs in our living room. 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So if you're looking to refresh your space, I really recommend checking them out Today we speak with Emmy Award-winning filmmaker and artist Lynette Walworth, who had a near-death experience at just nine years old that reshaped her understanding of reality, dying, and what it means to belong to this world. This set her on a journey to explore alternative relationships to death, which led her to indigenous peoples' traditions in Australia, Mexico, and the Brazilian Amazon. Her work really dovetails with ours in that she's exploring knowledge about living and dying that was once widely held and has since been lost, especially in the West. So, Lynette, why don't you introduce yourself? So I'm Lynette Warworth. I live in Sydney, Australia. I work in immersive technologies, in emerging technologies, as well as traditional documentary. Had many, many supporters who've helped me on my unusual quest to follow this sort of thread about our existence, our reality, and the edge of life. And this journey into exploring death emerged in a rather remarkable way. For me, that exploration began when I was young, I used to have seizures occasionally. There were grandma seizures of an unknown cause. So they could not be diagnosed. And frequently I stopped breathing. And the last seizure I had was when I was nine years old. That set me on a path which has changed my entire life. Can you take us back to that day? I was at my grandparents' house in the country, rolling on a big drum, just enjoying myself , having fun. I fell, I hit my back, and I had a seizure. And I was alone. And by the time my family found me I had stopped breathing altogether. So my dad had to resuscitate me, and I'm sure that was a terrifying thing for him. But for me, I had just left my body completely. I saw myself on the ground, and then very swiftly I was traveling through light of extraordinary colour. And I knew that I was still myself, but I was no longer in my body. So I knew those two things. And I came to a place where I met two beings who I didn't know but I knew knew me . I would say the sensation was most closely of being held in absolute love, but of a kind that I haven't experienced before or since because it was overwhelming in its sense of belonging, and probably that's the big word I would attach to it and the challenging word to live with. Many years later I saw a photo of my great grandparents and I realized that was my great grandfather and my great grandmother. And I understood somehow and nothing is spoken, there's just sensation that I needed to return and that these people would be kind of standing outside of time, present for whoever from the family came ne xt. And I knew that that would be my grandfather. So I opened my eyes. My dad was resuscitating me, the family around. There was a lot of tension, a lot of fear and worry. And my first thought was , oh, this is a dream. Like we are dreaming this together. Where I have just been is endur ing real ity. And that thought has never left me. Gosh, what an intense experience to undergo. So young. It was a difficult thing to deal with as a nine-year-old. I think I've often thought to have a near-death experience like that it extends your understanding of reality. You know, nowadays NDEs are more common, but back then I can't imagine this was understood or accepted or maybe there wasn't a lexicon around it. My near death experience happened in the seventies three years before Raymond Moody coined the term. There was no one I could talk to about this. So I was taken to doctors to have brain scans, and I remember vividly telling the doctor what had happened to me. You know, the doctor said to me, Oh, you had a dream. I said to him, No, this is the dream. I remember the sens ation of realizing very swiftly, oh, I've said the wrong thing. I should not talk about this. And you know if it happened to a child now people would know to ask questions. But I just didn't have that help. It was a different time. So even if others around you didn't, you know, understand it. What changed for you when you returned from your near death experience? The best way I can describe it, it's like if you lived your entire life on the surface of a lake and everyone you knew was on the surface of the lake, every building was on the surface of the lake. Your entire existence was on the surface of this lake. And then one day you fell in. And underneath there is entire other existence where you move differently, it's fluid, light behaves differently, there's different beings, there's an entirely different experience to be had. And then you get pulled out, and you have to act as though you know none of that. And that was a challenge of let's get back to that word, belonging. People when they want to hear about near-death experiences, want to hear about what happened. What changes you is how you emerge from it, and what is changed is your relationship to everything here. So actually the impact it had is it made me a far more connected human being than I would have been. That feeling of connection doesn't fade. And so it changes your relationship to all other people, all life , all of nature. And how did it change your relationship to death? I did not know for a long time that I had an unusual relationship to dying. But what it did for me was take away my fear of death. So from that early age I have not been afraid of death. It's not that I'm not sad when someone dies. Of course I experience loss, I grieve and mourn and miss . But I do not fear the loss of connection or the loss of the ongoing existence in some form of those I've loved because it's what happened to me. And when you start to realize that you're related to dying in a way others didn't, how did you make sense of that? It really wasn't until I started to work with different remote indigenous people that my relationship to death made sense How did you first get introduced to these indigenous perspectives? You know, the really fortunate thing for me is the oldest living uninterrupted culture is here in Australia. It's always been a part of my thinking to explore these cultural differences that exist in my own place. And indigenous understandings of death came from my closeness with Tashka Yawanawa and the Yawanawa people. So the Yawanoa are from the Brazilian Amazon in Acre . So I met Tashka at Oxford in England, of all places, and he had come there with several other chiefs from the Amazon brought there to talk about issues to do with Brazilian forests. And we met and we got on immediately. And I asked him what do Yawanawa people feel about death? So these are people who are using a visioning tool all the time, ayahuasca, in order to go into vision states. And travel, we might say, without the body. And he said, Yawana , we are sad when someone dies, but we don't fear death. And here's a clip that Lynette shared from her upcoming film that we'll hear more about later. This is Muka from the Yawanawa tribe describing his understanding of death, spoken here by our English translator. Animals, fish, trees, everything will pass through death. Death is a being that the great spirit has given to all that live on earth. So before dying, we will see many visions. These visions are the gathering of our family members who have passed away before us. Oh I'm seeing. There comes my grandfather. There comes my uncle. The death will open the way for us . They will meet us and they will lead us to where they went. So tell people that they will reach this point, but they shouldn't worry. It's like surrendering your body to death. The Yawanawa have helped me understand myself. The strands of myself that didn't quite fit in the culture I was raised in. I found a home with the Yawanawa. And so that was where I started to realise that the fear of death is not univers al. It's cultural. And so then if it's cultural, what has impacted us culturally to make us so death denying? That's a very interesting question. What about your NDE do you think makes your experience relatable to them and vice versa? It's possible that there's a channel that opens up in consciousness when you have one of these experiences that is recognizable in some way to others who also have that same channel opening. So we think about it like a spectrum of color and we know we see visible colour and bees can see in the ultraviolet range. That's the best way of explaining it to myself because it's happened to me several times that I have no training. I should not actually have the ability to have these connections apart from the fact that something was opened up in me as a nine-year-old that never closes down. And the Yawa people have this channel open by doing ayahuasca, right? Yeah. They know it because they have a practice of accessing that state. So when I was interviewing community members, I have not had an ayahuasca experience. And yeah, I understand what they'reing talk about. They understand what I'm talking about. That was the first place where I realized there's a kind of cohesiveness here to these states. And I realized that I wanted to do a more explicit work about exactly this subject that would try and connect what is this death denying aspect in Western culture? Where has that come from if it's not universal? Because it's a void , right? So in some ways, what you found is that many indigenous cultures have a more positive relationship to death because of these plant medicines or psychedelics like psilocyidmin or ayahuasca that allow them to leave the body and have an experience beyond, just like you had with your NDE. Those peoples who have not locked themselves away from the understanding that we are physical bodies and that they will all die have just so much to tell us If you're like me, you sometimes think back to college or those nights in your early 20s when you were just so present with your friends, and those nights, those moments feel kind of legendary because you're so present. The laughter and the honesty and everyone's in that zone at the same time, dropping their guard. And I think as you get older, and especially as you become a parent or maybe get set in your work or marriage routine, it just gets hard to find the time to connect with friends or loved ones that way. And I think that's what's so revolutionary about microdosing psilocybin from schedule 35. Because it's not about tripping at all. With a small microdose, it's honestly more about feeling deeply present or connected with this just intense ability to listen, totally undistracted with the people you love. And microdosing can be used in a few different ways. You know, it can be used on heavy days to find clarity or to kind of reset and just feel human again or to spark some creative flow. And for people who are cautious and want to know what's going into their body, Schedule 35 doses every product precisely. So whether it's a microdose or a bigger journey, you always know exactly what you're getting and where it might take you . Go to schedule thirty-five and use code TAPES for fifteen percent off your first order. That's schedule thirty-five.co code tapes for fifteen percent off. And please remember: psilocybin laws vary depending on where you live. Schedule 35 operates from a decriminalized zone, and they encourage everyone to understand and follow their local regulations. Please only purchase if it's legal, safe, and appropriate for you. 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Best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world-class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. See less carts go abandon and more sales go . With Shopify and their Shop Pay button, sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify dot com slash tapes. Go to shopify dot com slash tapes. That's shopify dot com slash tapes This led you to your next journey, which became the documentary Edge of Life, where you really explored these themes by following a clinical psilocybin trial of two patients facing the end of life, which opens up to a deeper investigation as the patients and the doctors facilitating the medical trial needed to journey beyond Western medicine to seek guidance from indigenous knowledge holders in an effort to understand what they were going through and what has been lost from our culture around death and dying. So I think it's a fabulous basis for investigation. And can you tell us a bit about how that story began? I had reached out to this psychiatrist and psychologist Margan Justin. They were working in palliative care at St. Vincent's Hospital. They had these 35 patients that they were going to offer psilocybin treatment for with psychotherapy. So they were on the same path as me, if you like, and using an ancient medicine that the Mazatec have used, as we know, for so long in order to help people find a new relationship to their approaching death. So I said, why don't we film this? And I told them I have friends in the Amazon, in other places around the world, in Mexico, who use these same medicines in different forms. And I'm interested in how we might weave cultural understandings back together because it seems like there's a void in our culture. What is this void about? Why is this cliff that people fall off at the end of life in Western culture or this terror attached to a sense of nothingness? Because we have nothing to hold us here, right? No cultural knowledge, no story, unless you belong to an organized religion, then you'll have some version. But a lot of people in my country don't belong to an organized religion. Okay, so you start working on a documentary with the two doctors who are doing this medical trial with psilocybin to help two patients overcome their fear around death and dying. And what happened? So with Justin Mug, I could follow these two incredible women. And with one of the women we follow Rose, she belongs to a Christian community. She's very held in her religious beliefs. She had lost her husband two years before she got her own diagnosis of cancer. And she's got three young adult children all in their twenties, and she's thinking, I'm gonna leave these young people with no parents. She was very distressed, she cried a lot of the time, and she was still practicing her religion, which I'm sure gave her solace, but she joined up to Justin and Mark's trial because of her grief and anxiety. And she has this psilo cybin experience and what she says is she rehearsed her own death. She's lying on the bed and then she lifts up and she sees her own body. She sees her own body lying there. She recognizes that that is her , she is also now in herself somewhere else. She moves very quickly through light and sees almost in some future point her three children. They're doing very ordinary things. I think she said her daughter was packing lunches into containers. She sees she's okay. She sees her son, then the next son. She realizes that life is going on and they're fine. And the moment she has the thought that they're okay, she's moved again. And this time in this movement through reverberations of light, she's somewhere else and she sees someone coming towards her, and she realizes it's her deceased husband. And behind him is standing her deceased parents. And he leans in and kisses her. And at that moment, she loses this anxiety about what all of these leavings will mean for her. And she emerges from that psilocybin experience with a completely altered relationship to dying. Wow. It's really just such a remarkable gift to these women. The other woman in the film is Flavia. She also had an incredibly positive experience in her psilocybin session. And afterwards she was really interested to connect with some indigenous knowledge holders who could talk to her about their understanding of what to expect at the end of life. And so we connected her with Sergio Pechez, who's a Mayan shaman and artist. And he shares through painting the Mayan understanding of that tradition and understanding of what will happen at the end of life. And here's that clip from the film translated into English. My history begins with the life and death of Here the person has passed away. Her body becomes still in that moment but the wheel continues turning in other dimensions. The wheel tells her she must continue her journey as a being who is no longer with us. This is when she gives away her being to the universe. Nothing belongs to her anymore. Everything is returned to the universe. But she doesn't feel fear. She's not alone. She's going to go through a process where time does not exist . I believe what we call time is ruled by the universe. Every living being is governed by a form of a cycle. We don't disappear or die, we simply recycle life. And the gift that life gives you is the power to know that we don't cease to exist. We continue in this world. Wow, that's so beautiful. And so in Flavia's last days, both Sergio and his brother Daniel , who's also a shaman, were sending messages to Flavia to offer instruction really about that process as she went through it. It was undoubtedly helpful. Wow. So for many people who are raised in Western culture and have a fear of death, one way of reconciling that fear could be to connect with these ancient ways of understanding this passage into the next form. Yeah. What about after someone passes? Like for those who are left behind and have a loved one that they're still grieving. Is there anything you've observed as being specifically helpful to those who are in the midst of, you know, what can be really crippling grief? Every single person without Fail who I interviewed who had seen the body of the person who died. Either they'd been there when the death had happened or they'd come a little bit afterwards, put their hands on that body and knew and said the same thing, they were gone. Like word for word, just that touch helps. We know something through our physicality that needs to be compreh ended by our minds that are dealing with this extreme pain. The things that are so challenging is that so much of what we've done in the funeral industry is to remove ourselves from that, from seeing the dead, or just touching them, or combing their hair for the last time. And some wonderful people working in this industry are doing now is encouraging participation because they have to overcome our fear of even seeing a dead body. I think we've moved ourselves so far away because of fear and we've intensified our fear by doing that. Yeah. And honestly, that's why I made this film. Because very early on in my life I realized that I did not have a fear that I saw could have a crippling effect on people who lost someone suddenly. And I've been lucky enough to be called into communities where an understanding of what the end of life could be, what it does hold, what we may experience, is held in an entirely different way. And I wanted through this film to try and do my best to thread that lack of knowledge back together. Honestly, to try and help. I love that. And I think it's so important in so many ways, right? Because it feels like this moment is a time of remembering and reconnecting to knowledge and understanding of what we've lost. One of the palliative care experts in our film is someone you've also spoken to in one of your episodes, Christopher Kerr, and he so beautifully states: this is not new knowledge, this is lost knowledge. Yeah. He is so great. He was interviewed a few episodes back and shared like the most incredible insights that were data driven, you know, from research about the visions people see as they approach death. And I guess, you know, that brings up the question. So if anyone is grappling with a fear of death, right now and can't or you don't want to have a psychedelic experience, are there other additional steps that can start improving their relationship to death? You know, the things I would do is if you are somewhere where you can connect with indigenous people, find them. This is known to them. They have not lost this knowledge. And if they're willing to share with you, find them. That capacity to hold this state open and to see the loss of it in our culture is very well known to many indigenous people. And if you are facing death, build your interior landscape, even the practice of meditation, spend time in your own mind. Learn how to contemplate without being distracted by the entire screen world around us that is calling us into distraction because there's a place of knowing that you can access. Takes time, takes practice, but it's there for all of us. Yeah, that's beautiful under flux guidance that we've heard over and over around these questions that we've been exploring on our show. And that guidance is simple, right? It's about looking inward, trying to be mindful about regulating our bodies, our emotions, our thoughts, and just being quiet. So yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think we're coming to a time culturally where we're gonna need all of this more because we're careering into some challenging times with a plethora of technologies that we have no idea how they're gonna impact us culturally and socially. And we can lose things. We can lose things from culture. And the loss of those things generations down, we may not even know they're gone. But the loss of them impacts us in our sense of self and sense of happiness. Yeah, you know, I think about that all the time. Like when T V came out, people stopped congregating in dance halls. And before air conditioning was widespread, people gathered on front porches and now people are losing their appreciation for long form storytelling because they prefer, you know, a 30-second reel or whatever. And then you go way before that, we could navigate from the stars. And now people don't even know how to use a paper map. So it's like, what are the ramifications of technology and advancement when we keep losing skills that really connect us to nature and who we are? And it sounds like through technology and advancements and all that stuff, we've also lost our comfortability around things that are super natural , like death. Yeah . Summer always makes me rethink about what I'm reaching for because I want lighter fabrics, pieces that feel good the moment you put them on that aren't gonna wrinkle like crazy. And that's why I just love Quints. 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And lately I've been rocking the 100% European linen pants and the matching 100% European linen tank. And it's just a awesome classic summer uniform. You can add a jacket or sweater to, it's light and it's breathable, and I can wear it to work or to dinner. So elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash tapes for free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty-five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash tapes for free shipping Quince dot com slash tapes . So I met this incredible anthropologist of Brown University when I was doing research there, Padja Faldri. I was telling her what I was doing and I was researching this work. And she said to me that we do not understand in the West, how people like the Mazatec held open this portal to accessing altered states even during the first Spanish invasions of their territory, even at risk of torture and death. And what she's referring to here is that even after the Spanish arrived in the sixteenth century and began suppressing indigenous spiritual practices, the Mazatec didn't abandon their ceremonies. Instead they protected them, bringing their mushro om rituals, which were central to healing and communication with the divine, underground. And through that were able to carry them forward through generations. You know, it's a historical note, but it impacted me immensely because of the why of that, right? Because the why of that means we need this. We need it. Maybe it's a human right to have access to a direct experience of the mystic al. That's what I have come to believe. Which doesn't mean that you have to have that experience. But the removal of knowing that an extended experience of what this reality is is available to you, that's an enormous loss. And so it has caused me to think about this idea of the direct experience of the mystical. And I don't know if you've talked to Brian Murescu, who has done that work about trying to look at whether Western culture ever used psychedelics in any way and whether that was a part of pre Christian and early Christian history. Yeah, we interviewed Brian in season two, episode seven. He's a mazing, and he's a researcher who wrote the book The Immortality Key, which argued that in the West, especially at Aleutius in ancient Greece, and probably in early Christian and Jewish rituals as well, they likely use psychoactive substances like potions or even in the form of wine to induce these mystical experiences that cause people to not be afraid of death anymore. And I really encourage people to go back and check out that episode, season two episode seven, because it looks